Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's part of it. Who who
Speaker 1: should be involved in this conversation, Who should feel entitled
Speaker 1: to be a part of this conversation, And I think
Speaker 1: that's all of us, in particularly people who experience harm
Speaker 1: from these systems, or harm from surveillance, or harm from
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of power imbalances in society. There
Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet. As a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and
Speaker 1: this is there are no girls on the Internet. So
Speaker 1: I talk a lot about the harm that technology has
Speaker 1: been responsible for, particularly in marginalized communities, But ultimately I
Speaker 1: am a tech optimist, and I see criticizing and fatiguing
Speaker 1: technology and demanding it to be better as an expression
Speaker 1: of my deep love of technology. You know, I love
Speaker 1: it enough to want it to be better and to
Speaker 1: really believe that it can be. And that same ethos
Speaker 1: is what drives Mozilla's Solana Larson as well. Hi, Bridget,
Speaker 1: I'm Solana, so Lana Larson, and my title is editor
Speaker 1: of the Internet Health Report on Mozilla's Insights team. Salana
Speaker 1: and I worked on a podcast for Mozilla called I
Speaker 1: R L Work Together. We explored the peril and promise
Speaker 1: of AI. For Solana, this work is grounded in optimism
Speaker 1: around the possibilities of technology. She saw all the positive
Speaker 1: ways it could be used to shape our world early on,
Speaker 1: but after watching the ways technology has been used to
Speaker 1: facilitate things like mass surveillance and criminalization, got hard to
Speaker 1: be so optimistic. Originally, I had wanted to be a journalist,
Speaker 1: so that's where it all started. But I was really
Speaker 1: drawn to internet topics and writing for the Internet. And
Speaker 1: around the time that I got started, the Internet was
Speaker 1: still new, the newspapers were still coming online. There were
Speaker 1: very few people who who were still taught, I mean,
Speaker 1: who had started to talk about the possibilities and the opportunities.
Speaker 1: I guess I was really excited about how the Internet
Speaker 1: could bring us together, and for the first ten fifteen
Speaker 1: years of my career it was all about how can
Speaker 1: we use the Internet to create bonds between people in
Speaker 1: different countries. I work for a website called Open Democracy,
Speaker 1: which was all about global politics and exchanges of ideas
Speaker 1: different perspectives from around the world. And then when blogs
Speaker 1: started happening, I became the editor of a website called
Speaker 1: Global Voices that was pitching itself as an alternative to
Speaker 1: international news, or as an accompaniment to international news, I
Speaker 1: should say, using the voices of bloggers from all over
Speaker 1: the world. So I've been working in this realm of
Speaker 1: digital activism, citizen journalism and really trying to use the
Speaker 1: Internet to bridge people's understandings of one another. And I
Speaker 1: think after some years of doing this, a lot of
Speaker 1: us who were very optimistic about the Internet started to
Speaker 1: sour um and just started to see a lot of
Speaker 1: um surveillance, a lot of UM people ending up in
Speaker 1: jail for you know, for for those of us who
Speaker 1: are working in international communities, a lot of like the
Speaker 1: Arab Spring uprisings, things that were happening around the world,
Speaker 1: that we're all around Internet culture, we're backfiring in a sense.
Speaker 1: And then you know, with the Snowden leagues and all
Speaker 1: we learned about surveillance around the world, it was just
Speaker 1: difficult to find a way to be optimistic about, you know,
Speaker 1: the great promise of the Internet. And what I found
Speaker 1: in Mozilla, which you know then became a job to
Speaker 1: create this annual report about the health of the global Internet. Um,
Speaker 1: what I found was a way to be optimistic because
Speaker 1: I think we had been working a lot in these
Speaker 1: communications or activism circles, and Mozilla had a very technical
Speaker 1: approach to a lot of these problems, and the builder
Speaker 1: approach or the technical approaches like let's fix it, let's
Speaker 1: make something, let's build something. And it was contact with
Speaker 1: the community who sort of remembered building the Internet in
Speaker 1: the first place, for building browsers or you know. This
Speaker 1: approach to the Internet was something we made, we can
Speaker 1: change it, we can fix it. Was really refreshing, you know,
Speaker 1: in a world with all of these political problems and
Speaker 1: human rights problems that are difficult to to change, Suddenly
Speaker 1: the Internet seemed a lot easier to tinker with than
Speaker 1: you know, human rights or dictatorships or or women's rights. Um.
Speaker 1: So that that was That's kind of how that was
Speaker 1: a long story. But yeah, the Internet Health Report, how
Speaker 1: do we measure the health of the Internet and how
Speaker 1: do we do it from year to year? That's been
Speaker 1: the project. So can you tell us more about what
Speaker 1: the Internet Health Report is and how it's changed over
Speaker 1: the years. Yeah, it's always been a very creative publication,
Speaker 1: so I've tried to divide it into different topics. It's
Speaker 1: always had a lot of visuals. It's always been about
Speaker 1: collecting a lot of stories, perspectives, compilations of research, pulling
Speaker 1: together a lot of information from different parts, different corners
Speaker 1: of internet politics and internet you know, tech circles, and
Speaker 1: then to try and tell a story of where are
Speaker 1: we right now. Originally we had wanted to make some
Speaker 1: kind of index or a number or a score. But
Speaker 1: the more that we looked at others who have done
Speaker 1: similar things or really got to the heart of what
Speaker 1: we wanted to to explore with this publication, it didn't
Speaker 1: seem fitting to narrow down such a huge, you know,
Speaker 1: part of human experience into just like this quantifiable metric.
Speaker 1: And I think particularly when you're looking at the entire
Speaker 1: world at once and you want to make something that's
Speaker 1: respectful of global experience, it's difficult to just say, oh,
Speaker 1: something's going well or something's going bad. Like in every
Speaker 1: country of the world, you have things that are going
Speaker 1: better and things that are going worse. Um, depending on
Speaker 1: where your focus is, like let's say we're in North
Speaker 1: America or Europe, then you might completely leave out the
Speaker 1: experience of entire continents languages. So more and more it's
Speaker 1: been diving into different topics momentarily and and doing like
Speaker 1: a snapshot in time of well, how does it how
Speaker 1: do submarine internet cables look right now? Or um, how
Speaker 1: does harassment on the web look like right now? Or um,
Speaker 1: what's this thing about social media taxes in African countries? Um?
Speaker 1: And so forth, So trying to to give a really
Speaker 1: broad overview, and then over time, I think Mozilla has
Speaker 1: really focused on this topic of AI, you know, not
Speaker 1: just for the Internet Health Report, but in all our
Speaker 1: programmatic work and the fellowships that we're doing, really identified
Speaker 1: AI as this is the next challenge of the Internet.
Speaker 1: Like if we're trying to be forward looking and thinking
Speaker 1: about where do we have an opportunity to make a
Speaker 1: difference now for the Internet of the future, AI is
Speaker 1: an area where we can really focus. So this year
Speaker 1: we decided to focus on AI. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think we've all been through a pandemic. People don't really
Speaker 1: have capacity to read long things at the moment um.
Speaker 1: Podcasts are what people enjoy and listen to. And I
Speaker 1: think what we always wanted to do with this publication
Speaker 1: was really too inspire, you know, not just say what's
Speaker 1: going wrong or like give some cold metric of what's happening,
Speaker 1: but to give people a sense of what can be
Speaker 1: done to make things better. And I think with people's
Speaker 1: voices and people's experiences, you can you can convey a
Speaker 1: lot more emotion I think in a way that's easier consumed.
Speaker 1: So yeah, this year we made the Internet Health Report
Speaker 1: a podcast, and we're able to m you know, create
Speaker 1: create new new connections, new links, for instance, with you,
Speaker 1: um so, being able to create this kind of project
Speaker 1: together and and you know, explore this topic in a
Speaker 1: different way has been really fantastic. Let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break out her back. So lots of organizations do an
Speaker 1: annual report every year, and if we're being honest, maybe
Speaker 1: no one really reads them. But Salana and the team
Speaker 1: at the Internet Health Report at Mozilla wanted to do
Speaker 1: something different. They decided to release their report as a podcast,
Speaker 1: anchored in the real life stories of the researchers, activists,
Speaker 1: and technolog just who lived them. Oh, I mean, working
Speaker 1: on this project with you has been I mean I
Speaker 1: could talk all day. It's been a dream for me.
Speaker 1: But I think you're so right. There's something about it
Speaker 1: being a podcast where you get to hear in your
Speaker 1: earbuds the stories and the voices of these people, and
Speaker 1: so like, the stories are really the thing that that
Speaker 1: centers the work. And so I just think there's something
Speaker 1: about hearing people explain themselves and explain what it was
Speaker 1: like to you know, realize that you were working on
Speaker 1: a project involving killer machines at Google, or you know,
Speaker 1: lose your wife from cancer and want to make sure
Speaker 1: that other people didn't have to suffer the way that
Speaker 1: you did, and so building something to prevent it. Like,
Speaker 1: there's something about hearing the voices of the people at
Speaker 1: the center of these stories that really makes them come
Speaker 1: to life in a way that you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know that that reading a report ever could, but it's
Speaker 1: what I really enjoy about your podcast as well, is
Speaker 1: the way you you get close to people. But then
Speaker 1: you also use that as an entry point to discuss
Speaker 1: the politics or to discuss the technology um and I
Speaker 1: think people need that entry point to topics like this
Speaker 1: because a lot of the time when we do hear
Speaker 1: about them, it is just like cold. I mean, who
Speaker 1: cares about a computer? Right? You care about the people
Speaker 1: and how they're affected by that computer. So I think
Speaker 1: that that's That's why it's been great to work with
Speaker 1: you on this and what you know. I'm also curious
Speaker 1: to see what you'll carry into the work going forward,
Speaker 1: you know, and and being able to explore all these
Speaker 1: stories together of these people around the world, it's been great.
Speaker 1: I do feel like when you come when it comes
Speaker 1: to topics like technology or especially AI, I think someone
Speaker 1: who doesn't think of themselves as like a hard tech
Speaker 1: person might think that that's nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: And I like the way that the Internet Health Report
Speaker 1: really frames those stories in a way that's so accessible
Speaker 1: that's like, actually, there is a lot of impact on
Speaker 1: your life if this is the way that AI is
Speaker 1: being used by governments, by law enforcement officials, by you know,
Speaker 1: other agencies. So I guess I wonder, you know, how
Speaker 1: do we make people understand what's at stake and and
Speaker 1: how how have you worked to make people really be
Speaker 1: able to see themselves reflected in these issues that you
Speaker 1: that you care so deeply about. Yeah, it's it's tough
Speaker 1: because you can also get sometimes you can get too
Speaker 1: superficial on some of these topics. Like I think people understand, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's social media, you know, like that there's there's disinformation
Speaker 1: or this is how I'm affected by social media or
Speaker 1: like you can you can find some of those entry
Speaker 1: points easier, and I think we've gotten a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1: You know, we're also looking at okay, but how does
Speaker 1: this work in healthcare? How does this work in governance?
Speaker 1: Or what is it that's really happening with surveillance? So
Speaker 1: I guess one step removed from the users cell phone,
Speaker 1: So it does require some imagination from people. But I think,
Speaker 1: you know, that's where the stakes really get a lot
Speaker 1: higher and where you're talking about life and actual death.
Speaker 1: And the really confusing thing about this topic is that
Speaker 1: you're the entities that you have to be concerned about
Speaker 1: are also the ones that you're friends with and you
Speaker 1: use every day. So I'm thinking specifically about Big tet
Speaker 1: you know, Google, We probably all use it every day
Speaker 1: for our email or Internet searches and stuff. And then
Speaker 1: to be confronted with this fact that they also are
Speaker 1: involved in, you know, mass surveillance in different ways through
Speaker 1: their cloud computing contracts or contracts with the with the
Speaker 1: Pentagon or other um agencies. These are difficult things to
Speaker 1: uh to grasp. Or Amazon, you know, we shop on
Speaker 1: Amazon or but you know, Amazon also has relationships with
Speaker 1: the police or also as a stake in surveillance tech
Speaker 1: and so and and with governments. Governments survey and they
Speaker 1: do a lot of things, but we also need them
Speaker 1: to make policies and to be our friends and to
Speaker 1: protect our privacy. And so it's it's a difficult topic
Speaker 1: to navigate because you know, everybody's wearing so many different
Speaker 1: hats and the things that need to happen, like so
Speaker 1: many different things need to happen at once for like
Speaker 1: massive change to happen. How do we make it interesting?
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's it's partly these these people's
Speaker 1: stories and then just highlighting the mere facts. Even though
Speaker 1: we use these technologies every day, we're just not aware
Speaker 1: of all these things. So the experience that people have
Speaker 1: when they hear this, oh my goodness, I didn't know.
Speaker 1: Or even when you explain how uber works or what
Speaker 1: it's like to be a driver, if you haven't had
Speaker 1: that experience yourself, people are really surprised and taken it back.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we just have to get better at talking
Speaker 1: about it, demystifying it, um, you know, allowing people to
Speaker 1: ask their questions. Um, presenting it in a way that
Speaker 1: isn't intimidating, because this is an area where experts like
Speaker 1: to pontificate and they like to be important, I think,
Speaker 1: and that makes it difficult for for newcomers to come
Speaker 1: to come to the conversation. So yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: part of it. Who who should be involved in this conversation?
Speaker 1: Who should feel entitled to be a part of this conversation,
Speaker 1: And I think that's all of us, and particularly people
Speaker 1: who experience harm from these systems, or harm from surveillance,
Speaker 1: or harm from you know, all kinds of power and
Speaker 1: balances in society. Yeah, that's I think that's key. That's
Speaker 1: something that we that we talked about a lot on
Speaker 1: this podcast, where you know, I think that we really
Speaker 1: need a big culture shift around who feels like they're
Speaker 1: allowed to have a speak on these issues, to see
Speaker 1: themselves in these issues, to center themselves in these issues.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not it should not just be you know,
Speaker 1: the people with power who are making the decisions, who
Speaker 1: also mostly happened to be a lot of white you
Speaker 1: know men, a lot of white stratesis gender men, uh,
Speaker 1: who are of a certain economic class like those like we,
Speaker 1: I feel like we've gotten a situation where, for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: we feel like those are the only people whose voices matter.
Speaker 1: And in fact, when you think about who is impacted
Speaker 1: by this technology was harmed by it, we need to
Speaker 1: be able to take up a much bigger space in
Speaker 1: the conversation to reflect the role that we actually have
Speaker 1: and what's actually at stake for the rest of us. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and that's that's true worldwide. One of one of the
Speaker 1: researchers that we interviewed in the final episode of the
Speaker 1: podcast one about health care, she has this quote that
Speaker 1: really it really struck a nerve with me, where she
Speaker 1: talks about she was researching how a I diagnostic systems
Speaker 1: are being rolled out in rural India where there aren't
Speaker 1: a lot of doctors, and so they roll out these
Speaker 1: systems and they're they're able to screen people, scan them,
Speaker 1: and send some tests to a major hospital somewhere far away.
Speaker 1: And she says, some of these systems have not been tested.
Speaker 1: They're being tested actively in a patient scenario, in a
Speaker 1: situation where people have no other option for healthcare. Big
Speaker 1: companies you know, whose names we know and are familiar with,
Speaker 1: are involved in this kind of testing. And then they say, well,
Speaker 1: we got these people's consent, and but they present consent
Speaker 1: form in the language that the person doesn't know, and
Speaker 1: it's terminology that they're not familiar with. And how she
Speaker 1: described it was, it's the mass and fantilization of entire population,
Speaker 1: of an entire population. And when you treat people as
Speaker 1: you know, in this way, there's just so much not
Speaker 1: even just in how the system is designed, but how
Speaker 1: it's rolled out, how you expect people, you know, to
Speaker 1: coexist with them. If there's so much offensive behavior at
Speaker 1: every level of the chain. And so these aren't just
Speaker 1: tech questions. These are human questions and rights questions, and
Speaker 1: there's varieties of that all in any kind of field
Speaker 1: where these technologies exist. We need people to be speaking
Speaker 1: of and we need to be defending people's rights to
Speaker 1: you know, their own autonomy physical and digital, because it
Speaker 1: makes things better, you know. Yeah, more after a quick break,
Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. AI will do this.
Speaker 1: AI does that. It is really easy to think of
Speaker 1: AI and other technologies as doing things, but really it's
Speaker 1: the people and companies behind that technology that are doing
Speaker 1: the things. You know, AI doesn't discriminate against people of
Speaker 1: color or strengthen the surveillance state. It's the people who
Speaker 1: make AI that are doing that. Computers and the Internet
Speaker 1: are powerful tools, and the people who shape those tools
Speaker 1: at scale have a responsibility to make them safe. I'm
Speaker 1: reminded of something that you said to me early on
Speaker 1: working on this project together. You said that you, in
Speaker 1: writing the Internet Health Report, try to stay away from
Speaker 1: assigning motivations or intentions to technology. So instead of being like, oh,
Speaker 1: AI does this, it's like all the people who make
Speaker 1: AI does this. You know, what, how is that thinking
Speaker 1: shaped your work? Because I do think that it's really
Speaker 1: easy to think, oh, technology, it's just gonna do what
Speaker 1: the technology does. It is neutral, But that obscure is
Speaker 1: the fact that there are people behind it that make decisions,
Speaker 1: and that that can be so difficult to keep at
Speaker 1: the forefront. That's right, people and companies. Yeah, and especially
Speaker 1: with AI. You know, there's this fantasy of an autonomous
Speaker 1: robot or some kind of computer brain that does stuff
Speaker 1: on it on its own, and it doesn't It doesn't
Speaker 1: help us get anywhere. You know, that's just not how
Speaker 1: it works. It's these are systems created by people that
Speaker 1: are actually kind of stupid in the way that they work.
Speaker 1: You know, you give them data they learned. I mean,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't even be using the word learning, right, but
Speaker 1: they replicate or they're able to spot patterns. And so
Speaker 1: when you highlight some of some of the errors or
Speaker 1: the or the false you know, findings of systems like this,
Speaker 1: you just you start to realize that it's not always
Speaker 1: all that it's made out to be. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of marketing lingo that that these systems get
Speaker 1: wrapped up in. And so when yeah, I'm completely allergic
Speaker 1: to when people say AI does this, or a I
Speaker 1: will do this, or AI will make this. Like the
Speaker 1: only way that AI is going to do anything is
Speaker 1: if we people, you know, ask it to do something exactly.
Speaker 1: You know. Also, we've talked a bit about some of
Speaker 1: the harms and sort of the difficult things to accept
Speaker 1: about the way that technology and AI has functioned for
Speaker 1: so many folks. But like you also strike me as
Speaker 1: someone who is quite optimistic. You know, your work at
Speaker 1: Mozilla is really about getting to a web and an
Speaker 1: internet that we want. Um, what kind of web do
Speaker 1: do you want? Well? I want one where more people
Speaker 1: are involved. Like that's I don't I don't imagine that
Speaker 1: we can completely change how big tech works overnight. These
Speaker 1: are these are extremely powerful systems. I think right now,
Speaker 1: it's about ensuring that alternatives can also coexist, and that
Speaker 1: the web can be a place where people can create
Speaker 1: things for their own communities and you know where where
Speaker 1: there is that openness and opportunity for creativity. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: enable those kinds of collaborations, because that's where I still
Speaker 1: see that there is a lot of positive and important
Speaker 1: work to be done. And oftentimes it's these smaller projects
Speaker 1: or grassroots project or the project of an individual, or
Speaker 1: even artistic projects that can kind of set an example
Speaker 1: for what we would like to see happen on a
Speaker 1: bigger scale. So it's hugely important that we all be
Speaker 1: creating or co creating or thinking about how we can
Speaker 1: build things together. And this isn't just something for technical
Speaker 1: people to think about. This is something for I think
Speaker 1: all different sectors to be thinking about together, because I
Speaker 1: think the really interesting thing or challenging thing about AI
Speaker 1: is the way that it is becoming a part of
Speaker 1: all kinds of different businesses, all kinds of areas where
Speaker 1: there's data, all kinds of governance, or even the nonprofit world.
Speaker 1: Anywhere where there's data, there's an opportunity to use AI
Speaker 1: in some way, and sometimes it can be in ways
Speaker 1: that are genuinely helpful too. I think, you know, rights causes,
Speaker 1: and that's that's what we've been trying to highlight in
Speaker 1: the podcast too, looking for people who are doing something
Speaker 1: in a different way, and that you know, when you
Speaker 1: see people who are building their own data sets or
Speaker 1: creating their own voice recognition systems for their languages, you
Speaker 1: realize the imbalance that there is that you know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't created in the first place, that these things don't
Speaker 1: exist already. A lot of ways that technology and systems
Speaker 1: are designed to work. We just sort of take it
Speaker 1: for granted, right We just think, oh, that's just the
Speaker 1: way it is. But it doesn't have to be. And
Speaker 1: so we need these people to shine a light on
Speaker 1: how could it be different or where is that injustice?
Speaker 1: So what is the data that's missing? How could we
Speaker 1: be approaching this problem differently? And that does not mean that,
Speaker 1: you know, we need to teach big tech, big companies
Speaker 1: how to do it. It might just mean that we
Speaker 1: need to find ways and find resources to do these
Speaker 1: things ourselves. Our show is all about identity and the
Speaker 1: Internet and how it can really impact how people who
Speaker 1: are traditionally marginalized like what they bring to these conversations.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like your identity as like a Danish
Speaker 1: Puerto Rican woman, like, like, does that impact this this
Speaker 1: kind of optimism that you have about an Internet that
Speaker 1: is more inclusive, includes more people, more collaborative. Um. Do
Speaker 1: you think that your identity has shaped what you bring
Speaker 1: to the work? Um? Yeah, I think it does it definitely.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it impacts my approach to everything
Speaker 1: really because I've got some North in me, I've got
Speaker 1: some South in me of at some different languages, um,
Speaker 1: and different experiences, And so when you're able to kind
Speaker 1: of step out of yourself and see something from a
Speaker 1: different perspective, I think when you're willing to do that
Speaker 1: at every level, you know, I can give you a
Speaker 1: lot of empathy but also some imagination for how how
Speaker 1: things could be or or how they might be. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it is a big part of it. Even even more though,
Speaker 1: I think it's just working with communities for so many
Speaker 1: different years who have been using the Internet to to
Speaker 1: do good in different way, particularly with the Global Voices community,
Speaker 1: where we also had so many translation projects with you know,
Speaker 1: citizen journalism that was translated in different directions, and just
Speaker 1: reading news stories from around the world firsthand perspective news
Speaker 1: stories from around the world. Yeah, I just know a
Speaker 1: lot of strange things about different parts of the world. UM.
Speaker 1: So that yeah, that's that's definitely part of it. But
Speaker 1: I think when you're when you're working with an organization
Speaker 1: like Mozilla, you do come into contact with a lot
Speaker 1: of people in communities who have that sense of optimism
Speaker 1: or have that drive to try and build something and
Speaker 1: do something, and that that is very nice. When it
Speaker 1: comes to the state of the Internet. Are you hopeful, Um,
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful about some things. UM, And those are the
Speaker 1: ones that I try to focus on. I spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time convincing myself not to get too mad
Speaker 1: about or to to jaded or too upset about, you know,
Speaker 1: the global surveillance society. UM. I do feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of things are getting worse, particularly when it comes
Speaker 1: to surveillance and lack of privacy and the way these
Speaker 1: systems are just kind of taking over really important things
Speaker 1: in dangerous way. So I'm concerned, But I also see
Speaker 1: a lot of good things happening. And having worked just
Speaker 1: on this project for the last five six years, the
Speaker 1: conversation has evolved. We we are, and I mean we
Speaker 1: as humans all around the world and in the media
Speaker 1: and even on social media. There's a lot more understanding
Speaker 1: for how these systems work, what the harms are, what
Speaker 1: the potential is. Um. You know, five six years ago
Speaker 1: there there there hadn't been. That was just like the
Speaker 1: beginning of Cambridge and Analytica. There's been so many UM
Speaker 1: data privacy policies, a lot of things happening in a
Speaker 1: good direction as well, So it's always about, yeah, trying
Speaker 1: to see both the good and the bad at once
Speaker 1: UM and keeping both those things in focus so that
Speaker 1: you can keep moving forward. That's I mean, that's it
Speaker 1: in a nutshell rite the Internet technology, it's really about
Speaker 1: being able to hold two spaces at once, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is such a powerful gift and this technology provides
Speaker 1: such a good opportunity for connection, but it can also
Speaker 1: be used to do some really scary, horrible stuff. I
Speaker 1: feel like you've just really summed it up nicely. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's everybody's daily experience, right, Like you
Speaker 1: probably love Twitter and you probably hate Twitter or you know.
Speaker 1: I love that I can do things easily online or
Speaker 1: order food or delivery or whatever, but I also hate
Speaker 1: that these systems are exploiting people in the worst possible way.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we need to work together and we need
Speaker 1: to fight back because these systems didn't exist just a
Speaker 1: few years ago, and we can change them. Someone of
Speaker 1: where can folks listen to the podcast and just generally
Speaker 1: keep up with the work that you're doing with the
Speaker 1: Internet Health Report and beyond, Well, they should listen to
Speaker 1: our podcast because it's yours as well. Um, they should
Speaker 1: go to dot Internet Health Report dot org. Um it's
Speaker 1: called I r L podcast. You can find it everywhere
Speaker 1: where there's podcasts. Is there anything that I did not
Speaker 1: ask that you want to make sure it gets included?
Speaker 1: I think the only thing I'm curious to ask you,
Speaker 1: I'm curious to ask you what you What do you
Speaker 1: think you'll bring with you from the podcast? Like, have
Speaker 1: you noticed has it changed your mind about anything? Oh?
Speaker 1: What a good question. I was actually just thinking about this.
Speaker 1: I think it's changed my mind. I think before this
Speaker 1: podcast I was a little I mean, this doesn't make
Speaker 1: me sound great, but it's the truth. I think I
Speaker 1: had a much more United States domestic focus on these issues,
Speaker 1: and I kind of told myself, you don't really know
Speaker 1: a lot about like geoglobal politics or you know what's
Speaker 1: going on globally, so you got to focus on the
Speaker 1: United States. From listening to I R. L and helping
Speaker 1: to make it, I definitely have a better sense of
Speaker 1: the way that these issues are global and so we're
Speaker 1: experiencing something like a harm in the United States, that
Speaker 1: harm is is deeper felt abroad, and that those harms
Speaker 1: are connected and lengked, and so I think it's definitely
Speaker 1: made me think a little further out than just my
Speaker 1: own bubble in the United States, because yeah, these issues
Speaker 1: are global, and I think that you do a beautiful
Speaker 1: job of really demonstrating that. I think it will be
Speaker 1: so easy to just have this be a conversation that
Speaker 1: begins and ends in the West, but that wouldn't be
Speaker 1: a full conversation, that wouldn't be the honest truth about
Speaker 1: what the situation is. Yeah. Yeah, I've found that part
Speaker 1: interesting as well. I mean, because I've learned just as
Speaker 1: much listening to the people who are talking and sharing
Speaker 1: their stories on the podcast and anyone, but this way
Speaker 1: that you know, when we talk about the experience of
Speaker 1: people in rural India, where we talk about um spatial
Speaker 1: injustice in South Africa and you know data sets to
Speaker 1: help combat that injustice. Just how much we share in
Speaker 1: common on these topics, you know that that there's something
Speaker 1: recognizable in that experience everywhere, and that even in the
Speaker 1: most low tech parts of the world, there is this
Speaker 1: highly advanced technology. Is something that I think will surprise people.
Speaker 1: It still surprises me sometimes that really it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if you're online or offline. AI is everywhere now and
Speaker 1: the Internet is everywhere now, and and that it can
Speaker 1: make a difference to your life good or bad. Um
Speaker 1: you know, like like the the the guests who describe
Speaker 1: the voice chat bot that he made. He's been working
Speaker 1: on voice recognition systems for UM major language in Wanda,
Speaker 1: ken Your Wanda, and they created this this COVID chatbot
Speaker 1: where you can call it up on the phone and
Speaker 1: ask it questions about where to get vaccines and different
Speaker 1: things related to public health. And when we were thinking
Speaker 1: about whether to include that story in the podcast, I
Speaker 1: sent him an email and I said, remy, how many
Speaker 1: people are using this does it still exist? You know,
Speaker 1: because they had won some award and there was a hackathon,
Speaker 1: and you know, it was like a neat idea. But
Speaker 1: you never know if these things take off. And he said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we just hit two million users the other day, so
Speaker 1: I'll say people still use it. Yeah, yeah, and so
Speaker 1: and this is a system that's designed for for people
Speaker 1: who maybe just have feature phones um or who aren't
Speaker 1: you know, you don't even have to be able to
Speaker 1: read or write, but still AI and it's still Internet
Speaker 1: and yeah. So so I feel like sometimes those low,
Speaker 1: low connectivity contexts help us realize a lot of things
Speaker 1: about life in you know, let's say, in the US
Speaker 1: or places where there's high connectivity. It makes you think
Speaker 1: about what you have and what you're able to do,
Speaker 1: and what's good and maybe taken for granted about the Internet.
Speaker 1: But it also makes you think about, oh, hey, there
Speaker 1: are actually also a lot of people in the US
Speaker 1: who can't read or write English, or who don't have
Speaker 1: internet connections, or who only have slow internet connections and
Speaker 1: so forth. So I think we share a lot more
Speaker 1: in common on these these topics in particular than then
Speaker 1: I think most people are aware of I find it fascinating.
Speaker 1: You know that that approach to thinking about the Internet
Speaker 1: as this global connector, but you know it also means
Speaker 1: that we all need to be, you know, fighting fighting
Speaker 1: for for it to be better. The Internet is at
Speaker 1: once frightening and full of hope, and telling the stories
Speaker 1: of the people like Solana who are fighting to make
Speaker 1: the Internet better makes me hopeful, too hopeful that the
Speaker 1: people who want to use the Internet to spread harm
Speaker 1: will never be more powerful than the voices of all
Speaker 1: the different people saying no, I don't think so, and
Speaker 1: I believe that all of us can actually make a difference. Y'all.
Speaker 1: Fighting for a better Internet means a lot to me,
Speaker 1: So please, please please check out the I r L podcast.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check
Speaker 1: out our mark store at tangodi dot com slash store.
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at
Speaker 1: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Brigita. It's
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss Creative, edited by
Speaker 1: Joe we Pad Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry
Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amata was
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you
Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, check
Speaker 1: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.