WEBVTT - Billy Bragg 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:23.396 Pushkin. Billy Bragg came up in East London, Barking, Essex 0:00:23.436 --> 0:00:26.796 to be exact, which is fitting given the characteristic howl 0:00:26.876 --> 0:00:29.756 of his vocals. Listening to him these days, it's hard 0:00:29.796 --> 0:00:32.276 not to recall the late Great Joe Drummer or the 0:00:32.276 --> 0:00:36.956 modern brilliance of Archie Marshall aka King Krule, but Bragg's 0:00:36.996 --> 0:00:40.676 musical output stands apart from an above comparison. In the 0:00:40.716 --> 0:00:43.716 mid eighties and era driven by production, he was all 0:00:43.756 --> 0:00:46.316 about songs and was one of the great standard bearers 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:48.956 of political music, carried on from both the folk and 0:00:48.996 --> 0:00:53.436 punk traditions. In his conversation with Bruce Headlam, Bragg talks 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:55.956 about music as a political tool and whether it can 0:00:55.996 --> 0:00:59.796 truly affect change. Reminisces about his first trip to the 0:00:59.876 --> 0:01:02.076 US and eighty four opening for Echo and the Bunnyman, 0:01:02.516 --> 0:01:06.156 and his collaboration with Willcoe to bring unpublished Woody Guthrie 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:12.436 songs to life. This is broken record Lander notes for 0:01:12.516 --> 0:01:20.436 the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Headlerman conversation 0:01:20.796 --> 0:01:21.676 with Billy Bragg. 0:01:22.796 --> 0:01:24.116 You're touring right now. 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:26.796 I am, yeah. I'm basically doing a week of shows 0:01:26.956 --> 0:01:30.036 before a Newport Folk Festival. That's what this trip is about. 0:01:30.076 --> 0:01:32.756 And then I'm coming back in the autumn, late September, 0:01:32.876 --> 0:01:36.476 October and starting in actually starting in Vancouver, down the 0:01:36.516 --> 0:01:39.716 West Coast, up through the Midwest, over to the East 0:01:39.756 --> 0:01:41.716 Coast and down to finishing off in Washington, DC. A 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:46.276 four months on tour. So that's the kind of fortieth anniversary. 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:49.876 So it's forty years ago next month that I first 0:01:49.876 --> 0:01:51.676 came to America to open Frek Underbunnyman. 0:01:51.796 --> 0:01:54.636 Amazing. Yeah, how is it this time compared to forty 0:01:54.716 --> 0:01:55.156 years ago? 0:01:55.356 --> 0:01:56.876 You got to remember, I'm someone who'd never been on 0:01:56.916 --> 0:01:59.356 a plane before I got this job. I was twenty 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:01.836 five years old. And we come across the Atlantic and 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:04.196 I'm on the left hand side of the plane. So 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:06.996 it's coming to JFK. So we come down Long Island. 0:02:07.276 --> 0:02:09.476 You can't receee anything apart from ocean, and then it 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:12.916 starts banking to you know, coming to JFK, and I 0:02:12.956 --> 0:02:16.036 start to see America and I see these rows of 0:02:16.116 --> 0:02:19.756 houses and I'm like, okay, this is amazing. So coming 0:02:19.796 --> 0:02:21.836 in yesterday, I was the same side of the plane. 0:02:22.316 --> 0:02:24.996 We come through the clouds and as the plane banked 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:28.756 I'm not a happy flyer. So I listened to music 0:02:29.316 --> 0:02:32.756 when I'm not watching films, particularly landing and takeoff, and 0:02:32.796 --> 0:02:34.476 it's just on random. It just goes for I don't 0:02:34.516 --> 0:02:35.956 like the track, I'll just bang forward till I find 0:02:35.996 --> 0:02:38.716 something like a scarboroughfare come on by Simon and Garfank call. 0:02:39.236 --> 0:02:41.396 And as it did, the plane banked exactly the same way, 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:43.836 and I looked down. I thought, I got it. I'm 0:02:43.876 --> 0:02:46.396 getting a thingle talking about it now, thinking back to 0:02:46.436 --> 0:02:49.756 that first time we came to the United States of 0:02:49.756 --> 0:02:53.836 America in August of nineteen eighty four. It was swotering 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:57.996 hot and the Olympics were on the La Olympics, I think, 0:02:58.236 --> 0:03:04.596 and we stayed in the Iroquois Hotel in Midtown and 0:03:05.196 --> 0:03:09.636 I had four or five nights performing on the roof 0:03:09.636 --> 0:03:14.676 of the dance Materia, which was an amazing introduction to 0:03:15.876 --> 0:03:19.796 life in America, not least because looking uptown from the 0:03:19.876 --> 0:03:21.876 dance Materia from where I was standing on the stage, 0:03:22.036 --> 0:03:24.836 the vista was absolutely dominated by the Empire State Building, 0:03:25.396 --> 0:03:28.316 which lit up as the sun went down, the lights 0:03:28.316 --> 0:03:30.596 on it. It was like, Okay, this is it, this 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:33.876 is America. Here we are let's do this. So yeah, 0:03:34.196 --> 0:03:36.636 I'm very happy memories of toom of our under bunnyman 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:39.516 in nineteen eighty four because I stayed on the bus 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:41.516 where the bunny men were on the bus the first half, 0:03:41.516 --> 0:03:43.076 and then they got bored and started flying. But I 0:03:43.116 --> 0:03:46.236 had me and my best friend from school, WIGGI came 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:48.956 with me, and we stayed on the tour bus and 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:51.756 as a result saw a lot more of America than 0:03:52.276 --> 0:03:55.356 if we had just seen the airports and the hotels. 0:03:55.676 --> 0:03:58.716 What stands out from that from traveling around in a bus. 0:03:59.276 --> 0:04:01.116 We did a shower in Chicago, and we went asleep 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:03.996 on the bus, and when we woke up, I was like, Okay, 0:04:03.996 --> 0:04:05.236 I wonder where we are now. So I went up 0:04:05.276 --> 0:04:06.756 and sat next to the driver and I said where 0:04:06.796 --> 0:04:10.196 are we now? Man? He said, we're in Illinois. I said, no, no, 0:04:10.236 --> 0:04:13.356 where are we now? Said yeah, we're in Illinois. I 0:04:13.396 --> 0:04:15.636 said no, no, we started in Illinois, Chicago. Where are 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:19.196 we at the moment? And he's like, we're still in Illinois. 0:04:19.196 --> 0:04:20.556 I'm like, how can we be in illinoy, I've been 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:24.316 driving for twelve hours. He looked to me like, you 0:04:24.356 --> 0:04:26.796 don't know half of its son. So yeah, that the 0:04:26.996 --> 0:04:29.396 vastness of America. 0:04:29.476 --> 0:04:31.636 That was one, Well, I hope you stuck with it, 0:04:31.676 --> 0:04:33.836 because once you hit Saint Louis, there's a little bit 0:04:33.876 --> 0:04:34.276 of a hill. 0:04:34.476 --> 0:04:36.836 Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that as well. And the other 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:41.316 one was we realized in that that drive was Chicago 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:45.556 to New Orleans NonStop drives. We realized you would have 0:04:45.596 --> 0:04:48.996 to stop somewhere somewhere, You're gonna have to stop. I said, 0:04:49.036 --> 0:04:50.556 and where are you Where are you going to? Where 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:52.916 are you going to stop? Said? Oh no, somewhere around Memphis. 0:04:53.076 --> 0:04:56.756 I was like, oh, interesting, any chance you could stop 0:04:57.196 --> 0:04:59.876 at Gracelands And he's like, no, I'm not going into 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:03.116 not going into Memphis. This is a total a nightmare 0:05:03.196 --> 0:05:04.876 driving in and out of Memphis. Forget it. We'll just 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:06.476 it will just be a truck stop somewhere. You'll be fine. 0:05:06.476 --> 0:05:07.676 You'll be able to get a meal and a coffee. 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:09.956 And I was like, So I went back with the crew, 0:05:10.036 --> 0:05:13.676 the lighting crew and the sound crew, and I said, look, 0:05:14.756 --> 0:05:16.636 there's nine of us. If we all put ten bucks 0:05:16.636 --> 0:05:19.116 in remember this nineteen eighty four as well, we will 0:05:19.156 --> 0:05:21.756 put ten bucks in and give him ninety bucks. We 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:24.156 might be able to bribe him to go asleep for 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:27.556 four hours in the car park at Gracelands, and I 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:29.996 was like, that's got to be worth ten parks. So 0:05:30.076 --> 0:05:31.716 we put it together. We made him off. He was 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:33.596 very grumpy about it, but he did do it. I 0:05:33.596 --> 0:05:37.076 remember him saying to us, remember where we parked, and 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:40.436 so we got that. We actually got to go around 0:05:40.436 --> 0:05:44.276 Gracelands before Priscilla tided it up. So we saw the 0:05:44.396 --> 0:05:47.196 kind of the depths, the pile of the carpet in 0:05:47.236 --> 0:05:51.596 the jungle room, the room with all the gold records 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:56.436 down the side, and the costumes reminded me of how 0:05:56.436 --> 0:05:59.916 a Carter said when he opened two chunk Harmen's tomb. 0:06:00.036 --> 0:06:02.676 Everywhere a glint of gold. It's like we would come 0:06:02.716 --> 0:06:05.276 to see, you know, the Pharaoh Memphis as well. I 0:06:05.276 --> 0:06:07.636 mean that kind of yeah. That kind of made it 0:06:07.636 --> 0:06:09.996 even more like we were come to see the boy King. 0:06:10.636 --> 0:06:12.596 And then when we got to New Orleans, we woke 0:06:12.676 --> 0:06:15.356 up on the band decided to go to Bourbon Street. 0:06:15.396 --> 0:06:18.276 So I went with them and we saw this guy playing. 0:06:18.756 --> 0:06:22.036 I'll think of his what was his name. I'd never 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:24.876 heard of him before or since, Mason Rufner. I think 0:06:24.916 --> 0:06:29.156 his name was slick back guy, skinny guy playing its 0:06:29.196 --> 0:06:31.556 black telecaster. Incredible thing. But he did this thing where 0:06:31.596 --> 0:06:36.156 he went down the notes in the basstring of the 0:06:36.196 --> 0:06:39.756 telecaster with his elbow while pointing at the audience like 0:06:39.796 --> 0:06:43.196 that thing like it. And you remember, this is all 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:45.036 in one day. This is the day where we woke 0:06:45.116 --> 0:06:48.236 up still in Illinois. So that passage of time where 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:51.196 we went from the Great Lakes to the Gulf. You know, 0:06:51.396 --> 0:06:54.116 I've never done anything like that. Again. I've traveled, you know, 0:06:54.116 --> 0:06:56.676 I've done some huge drives, I've done some great journeys. 0:06:56.676 --> 0:07:00.116 I've been in some amazing situations, But in twenty four hours, 0:07:00.156 --> 0:07:03.556 I don't think I ever did anything as mind blowing 0:07:03.956 --> 0:07:06.596 as what we did in that drive from Chicago to 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:07.516 New Orleans. 0:07:07.756 --> 0:07:08.716 Were you an Elvis fan? 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.156 I was, Yeah. I mean I think from my generation, 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:14.836 it's hard to get to rock and roll without going 0:07:14.836 --> 0:07:16.196 through Elvis. I mean, if you think of the cover 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:20.676 of London Calling, it's a homage to Elvis's first album graphically, 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:23.756 you know, and I think there's so many different Elvis's. 0:07:23.796 --> 0:07:27.516 You can choose your Elvis, you know, for some people 0:07:27.516 --> 0:07:29.476 it's Sun Records Elvis. I mean, that's why I wanted 0:07:29.516 --> 0:07:31.476 a lot of echo on my first album, so it 0:07:31.556 --> 0:07:34.356 sounded like Elvis's Sun Records. But my favorite Elvis is 0:07:34.396 --> 0:07:38.716 political Elvis. You know Elvis that for his Christmas Special 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:42.476 in nineteen sixty eight has specially written for him if 0:07:42.516 --> 0:07:45.676 I Can Dream, and sings it at the end of 0:07:45.716 --> 0:07:48.316 the Christmas Special in front of the big words Elvis 0:07:48.756 --> 0:07:51.756 and looks into the camera and sings this incredible song, 0:07:52.236 --> 0:07:54.476 which in the wake of nineteen sixty eight, which is 0:07:54.516 --> 0:07:57.316 in the year where Dr King was assassinated and Bobby 0:07:57.356 --> 0:08:00.836 Kennedy was assassinated while they were making the Christmas Special 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:04.116 while they were filming it, to say to talk about 0:08:04.116 --> 0:08:06.476 a dream, you know, having a dream in which our 0:08:06.516 --> 0:08:10.476 brothers walk hand in hand. I mean, that's that's pretty brave, 0:08:10.516 --> 0:08:12.356 that's pretty political. And then he comes out within the 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:16.316 ghetto and goes to that run of great thing was briefly, 0:08:16.756 --> 0:08:19.996 you know, there's a there's a moment there where you 0:08:20.116 --> 0:08:23.076 might think Elvis could pick up the mantle of the 0:08:23.076 --> 0:08:25.916 the Kennedy Brothers and unify America. Because he doesn't. He 0:08:25.956 --> 0:08:29.996 goes to Gracelands and takes loads of amphetamines. But the 0:08:30.076 --> 0:08:34.556 possibility of that is interesting. It's it's a really it's 0:08:34.596 --> 0:08:38.316 a really great moment in pop history as well. And 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:41.676 it's he does he does it because he I mean, 0:08:41.676 --> 0:08:44.676 he specifically asked to do it. Colonel Parker wants him 0:08:44.676 --> 0:08:49.236 to finish with I'll behind by Christmas, a dreadful you know, 0:08:49.436 --> 0:08:53.316 sort of modeling Christmas song, and he's like, I need 0:08:53.356 --> 0:08:57.116 something else, so he gets his musical director to come 0:08:57.196 --> 0:09:01.396 up with this if I Can Dream, and and he 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:03.196 really goes for it. If you watch the clip it's 0:09:03.196 --> 0:09:06.276 on YouTube, it is even. 0:09:06.036 --> 0:09:08.796 When you said political Elvis, I was like, he olviously 0:09:08.876 --> 0:09:09.116 don't know. 0:09:09.476 --> 0:09:13.396 Yeah, yeah, A fucking dream is a in its context. 0:09:13.916 --> 0:09:17.796 In its context, it's Elvis connecting with that. I mean, 0:09:17.836 --> 0:09:20.916 I think he felt Dr King being assassinated in his 0:09:20.996 --> 0:09:23.396 town as well. I think he felt that, he really 0:09:23.396 --> 0:09:28.356 felt that. And that year was such a tumultuous year 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:30.916 in the United States and Elvis had something to say 0:09:30.956 --> 0:09:31.316 about it. 0:09:31.556 --> 0:09:35.076 M hmm. That's interesting because even even the sixty eight 0:09:35.076 --> 0:09:40.836 Elvis from Me was almost betraying the sort of Sun 0:09:40.876 --> 0:09:44.996 Records Elvis I loved so much, you know, rushing through songs, yeah, 0:09:45.116 --> 0:09:47.716 finishing everything with a karate chop or something. 0:09:47.956 --> 0:09:51.036 The thing about Elvis is he's the first one. You know, 0:09:51.156 --> 0:09:54.036 he doesn't know how to do this. It's like Lonnie 0:09:54.036 --> 0:09:56.756 Donegan in England. You know, he was the first guy. 0:09:56.796 --> 0:09:58.956 He wasn't really prepared for what was going to happen 0:09:58.956 --> 0:10:01.196 to him. You know, He's out there on the ice, 0:10:01.276 --> 0:10:03.196 taking one step after the other, never knowing when it 0:10:03.236 --> 0:10:04.796 was going to break. Everyone who came in his wake, 0:10:05.036 --> 0:10:09.076 including the Beatles, you know, including everybody, have at least 0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:12.236 that had an idea model. You know, why didn't the 0:10:12.276 --> 0:10:15.236 beat was going to films because Elvis did. Even Lonnie 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:17.036 Doneghan made a film, you know, that's what they did. 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:21.036 They they followed his route, but he was just making 0:10:21.036 --> 0:10:23.556 it up as he was going along. And I think 0:10:23.596 --> 0:10:27.636 because he's shone so brightly, he was ultimately consumed by 0:10:27.636 --> 0:10:31.956 his own his own fame, his own image, his own elvisness. 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:35.556 There's never been anyone touch what he did and who 0:10:35.556 --> 0:10:38.876 he was and what he meant to people. And I 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:40.756 think for my generation, as I say, if you're going 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:45.036 to take on that rock and roll mantle, you can't 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:45.836 ignore him. 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:48.356 You know, Paul Simon said when we were talking to him, 0:10:48.396 --> 0:10:51.796 his favorite record, and he's obsessed with the production of 0:10:51.836 --> 0:10:55.396 records is a mystery train. Yeah, And he said every 0:10:55.396 --> 0:10:57.156 song he's ever done he tries to get a little 0:10:57.196 --> 0:10:57.876 of that mystery. 0:10:58.156 --> 0:11:00.196 I totally agree with him. That's for me, that's the 0:11:00.276 --> 0:11:03.876 key moment when the synthesis of country music and blues, 0:11:03.916 --> 0:11:08.236 of African American roots music and European American roots music 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:12.076 comes together. Is in Mystery Train. They captured lightning in 0:11:12.076 --> 0:11:13.636 a bottle there. I mean, obviously that's all right, it 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:15.996 is incredible, But there's something about Mystery Train. It just 0:11:16.076 --> 0:11:18.356 kind of appears over the hill coming out of nowhere. 0:11:18.396 --> 0:11:20.676 It's like it doesn't it even seem to have a start, 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:23.476 and it trails off at the end and it's gone. 0:11:23.636 --> 0:11:25.116 It's really gone, gone, gone, you know. 0:11:26.116 --> 0:11:29.756 And I have that incredible slap that's from the studio. 0:11:29.796 --> 0:11:30.956 There's no drummer, no. 0:11:31.316 --> 0:11:34.036 I mean, that's the really interesting thing about the Sun Sessions. 0:11:34.196 --> 0:11:37.996 They're so similar to Skiffle in that they have no drums, 0:11:37.996 --> 0:11:41.996 no augmentation, no pianos or brass or anything like that. 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:46.916 You know, it's all just guitar driven slap bass and velocity. 0:11:47.036 --> 0:11:49.916 It's about speed, you know, he speeds, he speeds up 0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:52.196 those old blue songs, those old country songs like Blue 0:11:52.236 --> 0:11:55.596 moona Kentucky. He just you know, revs them up and 0:11:55.636 --> 0:11:57.716 off they go, which is exactly what Lonnie Doneghan was 0:11:57.756 --> 0:12:00.716 doing with lead Belly staff in the UK. Weirdly, almost 0:12:01.036 --> 0:12:04.156 at the same time. I mean, that's all right, mama. Obviously, 0:12:04.156 --> 0:12:07.076 his first recording came the fifth of July in nineteen 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:10.156 fifty four. Lonnie Donegan recorded rock Online a week later 0:12:10.236 --> 0:12:13.516 on the thirteenth of July in London. I mean, how 0:12:14.756 --> 0:12:16.836 that was just out in the air somewhere something so 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:19.276 in sinjury could happen at the same time. 0:12:19.756 --> 0:12:20.476 Here's the difference. 0:12:20.516 --> 0:12:20.716 To me. 0:12:20.916 --> 0:12:22.796 This is something I've thought a lot about, which is 0:12:23.396 --> 0:12:25.596 when you listen to Lonnie Donegan, you listen to a 0:12:25.636 --> 0:12:28.476 lot of performers, you love what they do, but then 0:12:28.476 --> 0:12:31.916 you want to go here, the original Elvis, you don't 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:36.036 do that. I think maybe he shone so brightly that 0:12:36.156 --> 0:12:40.236 when you go you know, for example, when I went 0:12:40.276 --> 0:12:43.196 to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I don't 0:12:43.196 --> 0:12:45.516 know if you've ever been there, but he is presented 0:12:45.556 --> 0:12:47.996 as the first rock and roll star, and a lot 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:50.036 of the people who were called rock and roll stars 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:53.196 before him like Big Joe Turner and Ruth Brown are 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:56.596 just considered these sort of the pioneers they like to 0:12:56.636 --> 0:13:00.556 call them. And by the way, Elvis, the Elvis Enterprises 0:13:00.716 --> 0:13:03.956 owns that part of the rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Ye, 0:13:05.036 --> 0:13:08.356 so I'm sure it's presented the way they want. Nobody, 0:13:08.716 --> 0:13:10.916 but I thought, well, and you know, you have this 0:13:10.956 --> 0:13:12.556 little thing like who do you think should be in 0:13:12.596 --> 0:13:14.116 the rock and Roll Hall of Fame? I thought, well, 0:13:14.876 --> 0:13:17.236 Arthur Croud up because he did the original version. And 0:13:17.276 --> 0:13:19.836 if you hear the original version, it's got a lot 0:13:19.916 --> 0:13:23.596 of the the elements. It's not that totally transformed. And 0:13:23.676 --> 0:13:32.196 you're like, nobody knows him. No, nobody knows Mabel. I've 0:13:32.196 --> 0:13:35.636 forgotten her name, my accent, pardon me my action. No, 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:38.796 the did the original hound Dog. 0:13:38.876 --> 0:13:40.636 Yeah, yeah, I'll can't take one name on them. 0:13:40.516 --> 0:13:43.076 To be fair, written by two Jewish guys from Long Island. 0:13:43.076 --> 0:13:46.436 But there you great, But there's something about you know 0:13:46.476 --> 0:13:50.236 even uh and Malcolm and I did an episode about 0:13:50.236 --> 0:13:54.036 this once. You know, Little Richard actually was grateful to 0:13:54.116 --> 0:13:57.516 Pat Boone because people listened to Pat Boone and then 0:13:57.556 --> 0:14:03.156 wanted to hear Little Richard and uh, you know, Fats 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:06.556 Domino felt the same way with Elvis, and I don't 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:10.636 think it was deliberate on his part, no, but. 0:14:11.836 --> 0:14:13.956 Well he's a complete package. Oh anyway, it was sixty 0:14:14.756 --> 0:14:15.476 something about. 0:14:15.276 --> 0:14:20.076 It that he, uh, you know, all evolution before him 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:22.876 kind of gets discarded somehow, and he's like. 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:26.876 Well nothing, we know, nothing comes from nothing comes from nothing, 0:14:26.956 --> 0:14:29.276 does it? It happened these things, you know. That's one 0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:31.516 of the things that led me to write the book 0:14:31.556 --> 0:14:35.156 about Skiffle were roots, radicals and rockers. I was fed 0:14:35.236 --> 0:14:38.516 up with the idea that Lonnie Donegan recording rock on 0:14:38.516 --> 0:14:41.676 online was a singularity that just happened. It didn't just happen. 0:14:41.796 --> 0:14:44.356 It was a load of forces coming together around that 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:49.036 time in the UK culturally among young people, and I 0:14:49.116 --> 0:14:50.916 was looking for a book that explained how happened, and 0:14:50.956 --> 0:14:53.356 no one had written it, so I ended up writing 0:14:53.356 --> 0:14:55.716 it myself, and it was that urge to find it out. 0:14:55.756 --> 0:14:57.596 I think that really really helped. I'm really proud that 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:00.596 in the book Rock Island Line doesn't come out until 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:01.396 chapter thirteen. 0:15:03.196 --> 0:15:07.796 But your book also, it's another chapter in this English 0:15:07.836 --> 0:15:09.516 fascination with American music. 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:10.036 Yep. 0:15:10.996 --> 0:15:14.516 And you know, as many books as I read about 0:15:14.596 --> 0:15:18.676 music or you know, there's that apocryphal story that when 0:15:18.876 --> 0:15:21.996 Paul McCartney first came to the US, he asked an interviewer, well, 0:15:21.996 --> 0:15:24.436 where's Ray Charles. The guy said, I don't know where 0:15:24.476 --> 0:15:27.116 Ray Charles is because he just assumed in the United 0:15:27.156 --> 0:15:30.036 States Ray Charles was as important as they were in English. 0:15:30.076 --> 0:15:32.076 Yeah, I mean as straight as when I first came 0:15:32.156 --> 0:15:34.036 to New York in nineteen eighty four, friend took some 0:15:34.156 --> 0:15:36.196 I said, take me to a great record shop. It 0:15:36.236 --> 0:15:37.796 took me to a great record shop. Was full of 0:15:37.796 --> 0:15:41.876 depeche Mode impulse. I'm like, mate, this is not a 0:15:41.916 --> 0:15:45.076 great record you know. I mean, the average mom and 0:15:45.116 --> 0:15:48.276 pop store in America back then was a great record shop. 0:15:48.276 --> 0:15:50.116 We had a gospel section. We never have anything like 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:52.956 that at a Latin section, you know, at a country section, 0:15:53.116 --> 0:15:57.716 with real proper obscure stuff that you never find a home. So, well, 0:15:57.716 --> 0:15:58.156 what is. 0:15:58.116 --> 0:16:02.636 That in the English it's and it's it's famous stuff. 0:16:02.676 --> 0:16:05.716 It's obscure stuff. You know. The Beatles did an Arthur 0:16:05.796 --> 0:16:09.676 Alexander song who you couldn't find anybody in the streets 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:12.636 of New York who remembers Arthur Alexander. But they do 0:16:12.676 --> 0:16:16.076 a tribute album, and people in England, you know, Nick Low, 0:16:16.156 --> 0:16:19.076 Graham Parker are lining up to do Arthur Alexander. It's 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:21.476 like a cargo cult or something like. 0:16:21.556 --> 0:16:27.956 It's well, it's really I think appreciation of the great 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:32.116 performances oars Alexander was a great performer. You know, I'm 0:16:32.156 --> 0:16:34.636 scratching me out now for the name of the guy 0:16:35.076 --> 0:16:37.156 who originally recorded at the Dark End of the Streets 0:16:37.196 --> 0:16:40.516 something Carr. I can't but the people who around the 0:16:40.516 --> 0:16:42.316 time said he was the greatest soul singer of all 0:16:42.356 --> 0:16:45.836 time and his performances are great, but he just didn't 0:16:45.836 --> 0:16:47.036 get the get the profile. 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:49.476 That's what fascinated me, both the skiff and they were 0:16:49.956 --> 0:16:52.196 you know, I hadn't realized, you know, in my mind 0:16:52.236 --> 0:16:54.916 skiffle was kind of like a like almost a kid's 0:16:55.916 --> 0:17:00.756 version of sort of pop songs country mainly. Instead, they're 0:17:01.396 --> 0:17:02.876 really diving into. 0:17:02.756 --> 0:17:06.636 They really are diving into African American roots music, to 0:17:06.676 --> 0:17:08.956 the extent that one old guy who was a skiffler 0:17:08.996 --> 0:17:13.596 in fifties told me that the average skiffle player felt 0:17:13.916 --> 0:17:16.476 they have more in common with an African American sharecropper 0:17:16.516 --> 0:17:18.236 that they've never met anything than they did with their 0:17:18.236 --> 0:17:21.436 own dad, you know, because their parents had lived through 0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:26.316 the war, and the Skiffle Kids were the first bunch 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:29.596 of youngsters to define themselves. It's different. And the way 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:31.996 they did that was by playing the guitar. Just there 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:36.156 weren't many guitars in British popular music prior to the 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:39.716 mid nineteen fifties, and it's Donnegan and then Elvis that 0:17:39.796 --> 0:17:43.076 kind of brings that in, you know, but it is 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:46.596 school kids, I mean is it's like a playground craze. 0:17:46.636 --> 0:17:49.316 You know. When Lonnie Donegan plays in Liverpool in nineteen 0:17:49.356 --> 0:17:53.356 fifty six, George Harrison goes every night. I think he's thirteen. 0:17:54.316 --> 0:17:58.116 McCartney's fourteen, he goes one night, and Lennon who's sixteen, 0:17:59.156 --> 0:18:01.716 don't know if he went, but in the weeks that 0:18:01.796 --> 0:18:04.476 followed he formed the Quarrymen. So we are talking about 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:07.436 school boys. And the reason why that's significant is because 0:18:09.476 --> 0:18:11.596 by the time they were twenty one, twenty two and 0:18:11.636 --> 0:18:15.716 twenty three, those Skiffle Kids have been playing live music, 0:18:16.316 --> 0:18:19.316 mostly chuck Berry rock and roll type music for five 0:18:19.396 --> 0:18:22.036 or six years. They were kind of road hardened. So 0:18:22.076 --> 0:18:25.116 when the Beatles break America in nineteen sixty four, there's 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:28.156 a whole cadre of British bands ready to follow them, 0:18:28.236 --> 0:18:30.356 you know, and every single one of those British Invasion 0:18:30.396 --> 0:18:34.116 bands were all skifflers, and I think that didn't happen 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:38.236 to white American use until the folk boom, which is 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:40.716 later fifty nine sixty, you know, until you get to 0:18:41.556 --> 0:18:43.596 Kingston Trio and acts like that. 0:18:43.636 --> 0:18:44.036 Weavers. 0:18:44.236 --> 0:18:46.116 Yeah, well, no, I think the Weaver was I think 0:18:46.156 --> 0:18:47.636 the Weaver's really I think they were gone. I mean, 0:18:47.756 --> 0:18:51.596 the idea of young people playing guitars comes with the 0:18:52.036 --> 0:18:54.876 folk boom, and that doesn't really get going until the 0:18:54.956 --> 0:18:57.516 late fifties, whereas these British kids are already, you know, 0:18:57.956 --> 0:19:02.316 by the time someone like you know, Paul Simon is 0:19:02.396 --> 0:19:04.676 learning to play the guitar, the Beatles already in Amberg, 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:08.796 so that they're although they're the same generation, our kids 0:19:08.796 --> 0:19:11.316 are that bit ahead, and that's what makes the British 0:19:11.316 --> 0:19:15.076 invasion possible. So skiff al was the nursery of the 0:19:15.076 --> 0:19:15.876 British invasion. 0:19:16.036 --> 0:19:21.876 It's interesting how again, things that we think seem spontaneous 0:19:23.196 --> 0:19:25.516 have these strange origins. 0:19:25.596 --> 0:19:25.756 You know. 0:19:25.796 --> 0:19:28.916 One of the great things about Motown was that a 0:19:28.916 --> 0:19:34.036 lot of those kids went to pre integration schools where 0:19:34.036 --> 0:19:37.596 they had great music classes. Like a lot of them 0:19:37.596 --> 0:19:41.236 went to Northern in Detroit, but they had music teachers 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:45.076 who were teaching them counterpoint and teaching them, you know, notation, 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:48.916 and teaching them classical music. So Barrett Strong, a lot 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:51.116 of those guys, Norman Whitfield, when they showed up, they 0:19:51.156 --> 0:19:55.596 were they knew music, very small range, and so we 0:19:55.676 --> 0:19:58.796 tend to think of, you know, music as some sort 0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:00.236 of primordial scream. 0:20:00.356 --> 0:20:01.676 It's like, no more than that. 0:20:01.956 --> 0:20:05.636 Yeah, we'll be right back with more from Billy Bragg 0:20:05.836 --> 0:20:12.476 after the break. We're back with more from Billy Bragg. 0:20:13.396 --> 0:20:16.716 Speaking of guitars, I thought I read that you started 0:20:16.716 --> 0:20:18.516 writing songs before you played an instrument. 0:20:18.556 --> 0:20:20.356 It's true I did. Yeah, Yeah, what. 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:23.076 Were you writing too? Were you writing to a tune 0:20:23.076 --> 0:20:23.476 in your head? 0:20:23.476 --> 0:20:25.196 In my head? Yeah? Tunes in my head. Yeah. I've 0:20:25.196 --> 0:20:28.396 got notebooks full of songs where I still could look 0:20:28.396 --> 0:20:29.916 at the lyric and remember what the tune was. 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:31.356 Really. 0:20:31.436 --> 0:20:34.556 Oh yeah, yeah. When I was twelve, I wrote a 0:20:34.556 --> 0:20:40.916 poem at school and the teacher wrote to my parents 0:20:40.956 --> 0:20:43.596 to ask if I copied it from a book. And 0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:45.436 when I found out, I hadn't, and they kind of 0:20:45.836 --> 0:20:48.276 got me to read it out on the radio London, 0:20:48.276 --> 0:20:50.796 the local radio station, and I took that as a 0:20:50.876 --> 0:20:53.036 kind of recognition that I could do this, I could 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:56.116 be a songwriter. I thought, this is you know, this 0:20:56.236 --> 0:20:57.876 is really good and I don't know anyone else's ever 0:20:57.876 --> 0:21:00.356 done this. So I started, you know, just writing sort 0:21:00.356 --> 0:21:03.036 of songs that were broadly imitative of the music that 0:21:03.076 --> 0:21:07.836 I was into, which was American singer songwriters and Tamla motown. 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:09.556 You know, they're the two things that I listened to 0:21:09.636 --> 0:21:10.556 most at that age. 0:21:11.116 --> 0:21:13.316 Do you remember what was the first song that do 0:21:13.356 --> 0:21:17.036 you remember just moved you musically? 0:21:17.076 --> 0:21:20.676 Do you remember as the Box of by Simon and Garfunkel? Really, yeah, yeah. 0:21:20.756 --> 0:21:25.436 I heard it on a school trip in a must 0:21:25.436 --> 0:21:27.956 have been eleven years old, so that would be sixty nine. 0:21:28.036 --> 0:21:30.116 We're on a school trip somewhere, and it was one 0:21:30.116 --> 0:21:33.996 of those moments where I was it just I don't know, somehow, 0:21:33.996 --> 0:21:36.956 it just it was on the radio on the bus 0:21:36.956 --> 0:21:40.556 on the trip and it just it was a I 0:21:40.636 --> 0:21:43.436 don't say it's slightly but it was a transcendental moment 0:21:43.476 --> 0:21:46.636 for an eleven year old. It took me out of 0:21:46.676 --> 0:21:52.476 my little world into a completely different world and something 0:21:52.516 --> 0:21:56.556 magical in it, the storytelling, the sound of it, and 0:21:58.316 --> 0:22:01.636 I kind of started, really, I must have been really 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:04.836 into music. My parents that following Christmas brought me a 0:22:04.876 --> 0:22:08.036 real to real tape recorder so I could record songs 0:22:08.076 --> 0:22:10.676 on the radio. Have to buy me records basically, which 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:14.156 is smart. And if I lug this around the corner 0:22:14.156 --> 0:22:18.156 to my mate's house, his sister Leslie, who was probably 0:22:18.196 --> 0:22:20.996 fifteen at the time, older than us, but she had 0:22:20.996 --> 0:22:23.036 a brilliant record collection. She had quite a few Simon 0:22:23.036 --> 0:22:28.116 and Garfuncle records and several Motown chartbuster compilations. And I'm 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:31.796 more or less taped Leslie Charmer's record collection, and that 0:22:32.596 --> 0:22:36.356 served me my apprentices that I then started trying to 0:22:36.356 --> 0:22:39.316 write songs like Paul Simon and Smokey Robinson and still 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:40.076 do some days. 0:22:40.276 --> 0:22:44.476 Older siblings with good taste are a crucial part of 0:22:44.476 --> 0:22:45.116 the music. 0:22:44.956 --> 0:22:46.996 Except I never had one. I never had an older 0:22:46.996 --> 0:22:49.156 sibling of good or bad taste, so I was kind 0:22:49.156 --> 0:22:53.356 of blind until my friend's older sisters because basically, when 0:22:53.356 --> 0:22:55.156 I worked my way through and I've got older Simon 0:22:55.156 --> 0:22:58.996 and Guardfunkal albums because Simon and Garfuncle were very popular 0:22:59.076 --> 0:23:03.796 among Wins young adolescent schoolgirls at the time, you know, 0:23:03.876 --> 0:23:05.716 Sound of Silence and all that kind of stuff, you know, 0:23:07.596 --> 0:23:10.716 and the chart buster albums were massive as well at 0:23:10.756 --> 0:23:13.836 the time, So that kind of brought me into the 0:23:13.876 --> 0:23:16.796 whole notion of the craft of songwriting. You know, I 0:23:16.796 --> 0:23:18.916 will take songs apart me and think about tracks of 0:23:18.956 --> 0:23:22.276 my tears as three chords. It's possibly the greatest three 0:23:22.316 --> 0:23:23.476 card trick of all time. You know. 0:23:23.956 --> 0:23:26.476 It's funny you mentioned the sound of the Boxer because 0:23:27.316 --> 0:23:30.956 when we did the project with him, you know, you wonder, 0:23:31.036 --> 0:23:32.876 what is it the words that move you? Is it 0:23:32.916 --> 0:23:35.036 the music? For him, it's all the sound and he 0:23:35.316 --> 0:23:40.716 obsesses over production. And even now if you listen, if 0:23:40.716 --> 0:23:43.516 you've listened to that poor record, it's a stunning sounding, 0:23:43.556 --> 0:23:43.996 right it is. 0:23:44.476 --> 0:23:47.836 It's an incredible album to be obsessed with, which I 0:23:47.956 --> 0:23:50.476 was for a long time. I was obsessed with that record. 0:23:51.316 --> 0:23:53.956 It kind of I mean the thing about I eventually 0:23:53.996 --> 0:23:57.156 ended up becoming obsessed with Bob Dylan subsequently, kind of 0:23:57.276 --> 0:23:59.716 Paul Simon led me into Bob Dylan and English folk 0:23:59.796 --> 0:24:02.556 music as well via a Scarborough fair in a rather 0:24:02.716 --> 0:24:09.076 ironic way because Martin Carthy, who Paul Simon was inspired 0:24:09.756 --> 0:24:12.196 by hearing Martin place garboroughfare to record his own version, 0:24:12.796 --> 0:24:15.516 was playing in a folk club not a mile from 0:24:15.516 --> 0:24:18.796 my house around that time. But it took these two 0:24:18.876 --> 0:24:22.116 guys from Brooklyn recording this old English folk song to 0:24:22.156 --> 0:24:23.916 turn me onto my own folk music, which is a 0:24:23.956 --> 0:24:27.876 weird paradoxical way. What goes around comes around with saying 0:24:27.876 --> 0:24:28.476 folk music. 0:24:28.996 --> 0:24:33.716 So your musical inspirations were Paul Simon, Paul Simon, Smokey Robinson, 0:24:33.956 --> 0:24:39.556 Smokey Robinson, Eddie Cochran and your what were your lyrical inspirations? 0:24:39.556 --> 0:24:41.516 Well, again, you know, I was trying to write knock 0:24:41.516 --> 0:24:45.236 off sing, a songwriter song, so a bit of a 0:24:45.276 --> 0:24:46.636 bit of Paul Simon to start with a bit of 0:24:46.636 --> 0:24:48.356 Bob doing, a bit of Jackson Brown. I was big 0:24:48.356 --> 0:24:50.716 on Jackson Brown. I still think it's a great songwriter. 0:24:51.556 --> 0:24:54.276 And you know, I think you when you're learning your craft, 0:24:54.796 --> 0:25:00.196 you're always writing songs that in some ways have their 0:25:00.836 --> 0:25:02.916 framework from music you like. I always say to people 0:25:02.956 --> 0:25:05.036 they want to start writing songs, take your favorite song, 0:25:05.436 --> 0:25:07.276 take the words out of it and write your own 0:25:07.276 --> 0:25:09.796 words because it's your favorite song. You'll know exactly how 0:25:09.836 --> 0:25:12.916 the words are supposed to fit. And then you that's 0:25:12.956 --> 0:25:15.356 how you know, make your own words, make you know, 0:25:15.396 --> 0:25:18.476 maybe keep the chorus and change the words to I 0:25:18.516 --> 0:25:20.516 will Always love you, to give it a happy ending 0:25:20.636 --> 0:25:22.276 or something, whatever you want to do, that's how you 0:25:22.316 --> 0:25:25.116 start to do it. That's what I did, basically. You know, 0:25:25.276 --> 0:25:27.916 you just take a Chuck Berry song apart, and that's 0:25:28.196 --> 0:25:32.196 my simplest thing, and then put your own words on it. 0:25:32.556 --> 0:25:36.716 And then eventually, when I was about twenty I suppose 0:25:37.116 --> 0:25:39.316 maybe twenty one, I wrote a Billy Bragg song. I 0:25:39.356 --> 0:25:40.636 wrote a song that didn't. 0:25:40.396 --> 0:25:43.836 Have the first Billy Bragg song, Richard. 0:25:43.876 --> 0:25:46.916 Which ended up on the first album because I was 0:25:46.996 --> 0:25:49.876 very proud of it because it didn't sound like anybody else. 0:25:50.156 --> 0:25:52.636 I thought, this is actually me in this song. And 0:25:52.676 --> 0:25:55.276 once I'd worked out how to do that. This is 0:25:55.636 --> 0:25:58.116 towards the end of the period when I was in 0:25:58.116 --> 0:26:00.236 a little band called riff Raff, which is kind of 0:26:00.276 --> 0:26:02.796 like a punky new wavy band in the seventies or 0:26:02.836 --> 0:26:06.836 late seventies, and I started writing songs that were more 0:26:07.156 --> 0:26:08.876 had more me and him. I worked out to get 0:26:08.916 --> 0:26:11.916 me into the songs. Also read somewhere that you were 0:26:11.916 --> 0:26:14.396 bullied as a kid that kind of yeah, I was 0:26:14.436 --> 0:26:17.476 sort of. You know, it got a bit towards the 0:26:17.556 --> 0:26:19.396 end of our school years. It all got a bit 0:26:20.036 --> 0:26:22.996 larry at school, so I tended to not go in 0:26:23.036 --> 0:26:26.636 so much. You know, it's too much mm hmm, too 0:26:26.716 --> 0:26:30.396 much grief. It just made me. Gave me a lot 0:26:30.436 --> 0:26:33.796 of anxiety around town. So you know, the sort of 0:26:33.796 --> 0:26:35.876 things that other people, other kids my age did not 0:26:35.996 --> 0:26:38.556 go out to the pubs and go out dancing and stuff. 0:26:38.556 --> 0:26:41.836 I just didn't, you know, I just gave me, just 0:26:41.836 --> 0:26:44.196 give me too much anxiety. So I was fortunate. I 0:26:44.196 --> 0:26:45.996 had a couple of mates who had a guitar and 0:26:46.036 --> 0:26:48.596 a drum kit, and we sat in my mum's back 0:26:48.636 --> 0:26:51.316 room and wrote songs and played music. It's saved my 0:26:51.356 --> 0:26:51.756 own life. 0:26:51.916 --> 0:26:54.596 Is that when you started guitar? Did that give you 0:26:54.596 --> 0:26:55.476 some confidence a lot? 0:26:55.556 --> 0:26:58.996 Yeah, a lot, huge amount self expression? Bruce. You know 0:26:58.996 --> 0:27:01.636 you got your writing it, putting it all out there, 0:27:01.756 --> 0:27:04.876 you know, you this is how I feel. Music is 0:27:04.916 --> 0:27:06.916 a form of therapy, whether you're listening to it or 0:27:06.956 --> 0:27:09.596 writing it or making it or playing it, a repeutic 0:27:09.596 --> 0:27:16.036 effect because you're you're putting yourself into it. And I 0:27:16.076 --> 0:27:17.716 say this not just as a musician, but that can 0:27:17.756 --> 0:27:22.316 also be as a listener, because I think the currency 0:27:22.356 --> 0:27:26.556 of music is fundamentally empathy. You're as a writer, you're 0:27:26.556 --> 0:27:30.756 asking the listener to listen to this person in this 0:27:30.836 --> 0:27:33.556 situation and feel something for them in a situation you 0:27:33.636 --> 0:27:36.716 might not have experienced as a person. But this person here, 0:27:37.396 --> 0:27:39.796 you know, listen to that. Or there's another way whereby 0:27:40.796 --> 0:27:42.876 the person who's written the song has somehow touched a 0:27:42.956 --> 0:27:47.516 nerve with you, and in that case you draw empathy 0:27:47.596 --> 0:27:50.276 from the song. You're getting some of yourself, you're feeling 0:27:50.276 --> 0:27:55.276 and you're not alone. This song, you know, is somehow 0:27:55.356 --> 0:27:57.676 articulating something you can't put into words. We all have 0:27:57.716 --> 0:28:00.316 songs like that, you know, and that, and that's really 0:28:00.356 --> 0:28:05.716 really valuable because I think, you know, the the sense 0:28:05.796 --> 0:28:09.396 of isolation that we have in society, which is always 0:28:09.396 --> 0:28:12.196 been that's not just a manifestation of the digital wage. 0:28:12.716 --> 0:28:17.116 I've always been there. And when people come together to 0:28:17.276 --> 0:28:21.276 celebrate and to sing, whether it's in church, at soccer games, 0:28:21.316 --> 0:28:25.796 it happens people sing, you know. Obviously music concerts, you 0:28:25.836 --> 0:28:28.276 get a moment where you feel you're not alone. You're 0:28:28.276 --> 0:28:30.196 not the only person who cares about this thing, whatever 0:28:30.236 --> 0:28:30.956 this thing is. 0:28:31.636 --> 0:28:33.756 Did you need the feedback of an audience to feel 0:28:33.756 --> 0:28:35.516 that way about your own songs? Or did you feel 0:28:35.516 --> 0:28:37.716 that way in the back room of the house. 0:28:37.796 --> 0:28:39.236 I felt that way in the background of the house. 0:28:39.356 --> 0:28:43.236 Really. Yeah, did you feel the anxiety about being around 0:28:43.236 --> 0:28:45.076 other people and get you could put your feelings out 0:28:45.076 --> 0:28:45.556 in a song? 0:28:45.636 --> 0:28:49.236 Yeah? I could not not. I don't think so. I mean, 0:28:50.036 --> 0:28:51.516 you know that's the trick of it, isn't it. You 0:28:51.636 --> 0:28:55.916 learn you learn to put into song the things that 0:28:55.956 --> 0:28:59.516 you find yourself struggling with, you know, the reflection of 0:28:59.516 --> 0:29:02.036 who you are, and you think the song's about somebody else, 0:29:02.036 --> 0:29:04.236 but actually it sends out to be about you actually 0:29:04.436 --> 0:29:08.596 when you admit about it and that. You know, when 0:29:08.596 --> 0:29:11.036 we started doing gigs, when when punk happened and it 0:29:11.076 --> 0:29:13.116 became possible for you just to turn up and play, 0:29:13.276 --> 0:29:17.916 it became much easier. You didn't have to justify being 0:29:17.956 --> 0:29:20.396 in the band. Everyone was in a band. Uh. Then 0:29:20.436 --> 0:29:22.076 there was a there was a confidence in that as well, 0:29:22.076 --> 0:29:25.236 because it was like our generation were coming to the fore. 0:29:25.316 --> 0:29:26.356 Now this is who we are. 0:29:27.156 --> 0:29:27.396 You know. 0:29:27.876 --> 0:29:33.316 My political uh awakening was going to rock against racism. 0:29:33.356 --> 0:29:35.356 That's the first political thing I ever did, and that 0:29:35.356 --> 0:29:38.636 that was an incredible experience because it gave me the 0:29:38.636 --> 0:29:39.796 courage of my convictions. 0:29:39.956 --> 0:29:42.276 You know, that's interesting to me. I had always assumed 0:29:42.276 --> 0:29:46.916 that that your politics informed you becoming a singer and 0:29:46.956 --> 0:29:49.396 a songwriter, that you're what we would call here a 0:29:49.436 --> 0:29:50.436 red daper baby. 0:29:50.716 --> 0:29:52.596 No no, no, no, no, no no no. The town 0:29:52.636 --> 0:29:55.636 I grew up in, East London has always been labor 0:29:55.636 --> 0:29:58.236 since my father was a kid, so there was no 0:29:58.316 --> 0:30:01.596 real politics around. It was just labor. That was what 0:30:01.636 --> 0:30:04.796 it was, and everyone was labor. My parents weren't particularly political. 0:30:05.596 --> 0:30:11.396 I got my sense of of policy by osmosis from 0:30:11.476 --> 0:30:17.916 listening to predominantly American soul music from the Civil rights period. 0:30:18.596 --> 0:30:21.316 You know, if you get them Motown chartbuses albums, they're 0:30:21.316 --> 0:30:24.076 great pop albums, and they're you know, they're amazing. And 0:30:24.116 --> 0:30:27.396 then you get to volume five, I think, and all 0:30:27.396 --> 0:30:30.596 of a sudden things start. Something's changed. You get you know, 0:30:30.716 --> 0:30:34.116 Ball of Confusion by the Temptations, You've got War by 0:30:34.236 --> 0:30:38.436 Edwin Starr, you know, and there's a change of tone. 0:30:38.596 --> 0:30:41.876 Something's happened, and the clue is in the record Marvin 0:30:41.916 --> 0:30:44.076 Gaye sings Abraham Martin and John and what has happened 0:30:44.156 --> 0:30:47.836 is Dr King has been murdered and along with the 0:30:47.836 --> 0:30:52.756 rest of African American and culture motowns reflecting that. So 0:30:52.796 --> 0:30:57.196 I kind of picked up on on that politics, the 0:30:57.276 --> 0:31:01.236 politics of civil rights and as also doing a singer 0:31:01.276 --> 0:31:02.676 songwriters that I listened to as well. You know, the 0:31:02.716 --> 0:31:05.036 early Dylan records. You know, my huge record for me 0:31:05.196 --> 0:31:08.076 was The Times They Were Changing That album. I swapped 0:31:08.116 --> 0:31:10.756 it with mate of mine at school for his dad's 0:31:10.756 --> 0:31:15.076 copy of No I got it. I got his dad's 0:31:15.116 --> 0:31:17.236 copy of The Times They Were Changing in exchange from 0:31:17.276 --> 0:31:20.156 my copy of the Jackson Five's greatst Hits. It was 0:31:20.196 --> 0:31:22.836 a brilliant deal and. 0:31:23.436 --> 0:31:25.796 I think you both want on that one, but he thought. 0:31:25.116 --> 0:31:26.636 He wanted to give it to his sister as a 0:31:26.636 --> 0:31:28.956 birthday present, so anyway we did it. It was it was, 0:31:29.356 --> 0:31:31.476 It just blew my mind. It was so raw, it 0:31:31.516 --> 0:31:34.316 was so visceral, all that album, The Times They Were Changing, 0:31:34.356 --> 0:31:36.636 and that Bob Dylan, not the later Blonde on Blonde 0:31:36.636 --> 0:31:40.196 type I was sixty one, but that early you know, 0:31:41.116 --> 0:31:43.516 blowing in the Wind Bob Dylan was really inspiration to me. 0:31:43.596 --> 0:31:46.156 As while I'm talking about when I'm like fourteen fifteen now, 0:31:47.196 --> 0:31:49.836 So I got my politics from that, but you know, 0:31:49.876 --> 0:31:53.956 my politics were broadly I suppose humanitarian. But where I 0:31:53.996 --> 0:31:55.676 was you know, when I went to Rock Against Racism, 0:31:55.756 --> 0:31:58.996 I was working in an office in London and the 0:31:59.036 --> 0:32:02.756 men I worked with were you know, casually racist, casually sexist, 0:32:02.836 --> 0:32:05.876 casually homophobic, and I really you know, didn't ever say 0:32:05.876 --> 0:32:10.156 anything or raise any questions. But going to Rock against Racism, 0:32:11.476 --> 0:32:13.596 see the clash we're playing, and that's kind of what 0:32:13.676 --> 0:32:17.476 got us to go over the step. But going there 0:32:17.476 --> 0:32:20.556 and getting to the theres a park in Hackney called 0:32:20.636 --> 0:32:24.276 Victoria Park where it happened, and seeing eighty thousand kids 0:32:24.316 --> 0:32:29.396 just like me, I kind of realized that this issue 0:32:29.436 --> 0:32:31.916 is going to be what defines my generation, like Vietnam 0:32:31.916 --> 0:32:34.556 had defined the previous generation. We were going to define 0:32:34.556 --> 0:32:38.556 ourselves in opposition of an opposition to discrimination of all kinds, 0:32:38.916 --> 0:32:42.916 not just racism, but homophobia and sexism and everything else. 0:32:42.956 --> 0:32:45.236 We were going to be the generation of two Tone. 0:32:45.436 --> 0:32:48.076 We were going to be the generation of artists against 0:32:48.076 --> 0:32:51.516 aparthe That's who we were going to be. And when 0:32:51.516 --> 0:32:54.476 I went back to work on Monday. The world hadn't changed, 0:32:54.716 --> 0:32:58.036 but my perception of it had and I knew why 0:32:58.036 --> 0:33:01.156 I was different from these arshols at work, you know, 0:33:01.476 --> 0:33:03.676 And so I'd stopped laughing when they made those comments, 0:33:03.716 --> 0:33:06.556 you know, I stopped joining him with you, pastor and 0:33:06.596 --> 0:33:10.676 the secretaries and stuff like that. I like, Okay, there's 0:33:10.676 --> 0:33:14.236 something different now, you know. And that and that informs 0:33:14.276 --> 0:33:18.276 how I understand how music works when I'm doing a gig. 0:33:18.596 --> 0:33:21.236 Now that's interesting to me because you, of course, are 0:33:21.276 --> 0:33:25.396 always called the political songwriter, although the vast majority of 0:33:25.476 --> 0:33:29.356 your songs are about love and human relationships and other things. 0:33:30.276 --> 0:33:34.436 Does a song have to be explicitly political to be political? 0:33:34.716 --> 0:33:38.276 No, it really really doesn't. I have a song called 0:33:38.996 --> 0:33:42.596 I Keep Faith, and I can introduce that as a 0:33:42.636 --> 0:33:46.916 love song. Ostensibly it works as a love song, but 0:33:46.956 --> 0:33:49.316 I can also introduce it by talking about my faith 0:33:49.356 --> 0:33:52.156 in the audience's ability to change the world. And if 0:33:52.156 --> 0:33:54.916 I do that, men cry. They come up to me 0:33:54.956 --> 0:33:57.316 at the end and say, I really moved, you know, 0:33:57.316 --> 0:33:58.836 it was really moved for that, And I'm not good mate, 0:33:58.836 --> 0:34:00.556 you know, I was talking about empathy back then. That's 0:34:00.836 --> 0:34:04.436 that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that empathy, 0:34:04.516 --> 0:34:07.796 you know, mate, Malcolm was listening to him on the 0:34:07.876 --> 0:34:12.796 radio one time and he talked about the ability to 0:34:12.836 --> 0:34:17.916 make people move people to tears without hurting them. You know, 0:34:18.356 --> 0:34:23.196 the ability to move people by emotion to tears is 0:34:23.196 --> 0:34:27.876 a very powerful thing. And then he played levs Stubs tears. 0:34:29.236 --> 0:34:31.636 That made my ears pick up, I'll tell you. And 0:34:32.036 --> 0:34:36.796 it's very insightful, Malcolm, the touch on that, because it 0:34:36.876 --> 0:34:40.476 gave me a you know, a sudden flash of how 0:34:40.476 --> 0:34:41.476 the process works. 0:34:41.916 --> 0:34:43.436 I would say a couple of things. First of all, 0:34:43.996 --> 0:34:47.436 I always felt that song was quite ironic, not that 0:34:47.516 --> 0:34:52.636 you don't like Levi Stubbs, but that the comparison of 0:34:52.636 --> 0:34:57.716 her life with with a sort of motown fantasy was 0:34:57.836 --> 0:34:58.436 quite bleak. 0:34:58.636 --> 0:35:01.076 Well. Yeah, the thing is, the song is about the 0:35:01.116 --> 0:35:04.476 redemptive power of soul music. You know that the pain 0:35:04.516 --> 0:35:09.316 that Levi Stubbs has, the pain that he expressed, is 0:35:09.316 --> 0:35:13.556 the tear in his voice, the sob in his voice. 0:35:14.436 --> 0:35:18.036 She draws from that a sense that someone understands where 0:35:18.076 --> 0:35:23.156 she's coming from. She draws some empathy from from his pain. 0:35:23.236 --> 0:35:26.076 His pain somehow is her pain. She's got to pick 0:35:26.116 --> 0:35:28.836 herself up and put herself back togethering in now and 0:35:28.956 --> 0:35:31.756 Levi's obviously felt that as well, because you can hear 0:35:31.796 --> 0:35:33.196 it in the way that he sings, you know, when 0:35:33.196 --> 0:35:37.116 he cries out for Bernadette, you know, when he talks 0:35:37.116 --> 0:35:40.996 about the seven Rooms of Gloom. You know it's there, 0:35:41.116 --> 0:35:45.996 you know, very operatic. Yeah, just incredible voice. Incredible voice. 0:35:46.316 --> 0:35:48.396 Are you the person who's jotting things down when a 0:35:48.476 --> 0:35:52.636 line occurs to you? Is it something you're very conscious 0:35:52.636 --> 0:35:54.036 of injecting into your records? 0:35:55.036 --> 0:35:57.156 I think if you're going to do politics, you have 0:35:57.196 --> 0:36:00.476 to leave it up a little with some rye Humer. 0:36:00.556 --> 0:36:04.716 You know, you can't just go storming in there, putting 0:36:04.756 --> 0:36:06.676 people in the chest all the way through a gig. 0:36:06.716 --> 0:36:07.916 And I do a little bit of that, you know 0:36:08.036 --> 0:36:10.996 sometimes talking about the election on this tour, I'll be 0:36:10.996 --> 0:36:13.916 doing a little bit of fingerpointing maybe of the British 0:36:13.956 --> 0:36:16.676 election the American election in November. Oh okay, yeah, yeah, 0:36:16.716 --> 0:36:20.076 the British election I will talk about. But obviously, you 0:36:20.116 --> 0:36:23.476 know what's coming in November is very contentious at the moment, 0:36:23.516 --> 0:36:24.876 so I doubt let's be talking about that. 0:36:25.076 --> 0:36:26.956 I haven't been reading about it, so I have no 0:36:27.036 --> 0:36:29.436 idea what you're talking about. 0:36:30.316 --> 0:36:34.716 But the I found that when I was you know, 0:36:35.076 --> 0:36:40.916 my political crucible was the UK minor strike in nineteen 0:36:40.956 --> 0:36:44.116 eighty four and you played there, Yeah, loads of times. Yeah, yeah, 0:36:44.476 --> 0:36:47.076 I would play What was that like? I was mad? 0:36:47.556 --> 0:36:48.556 It was absolutely mad? 0:36:48.836 --> 0:36:50.636 Well did did they know you were coming? You would 0:36:50.676 --> 0:36:51.196 just show up? 0:36:51.236 --> 0:36:53.276 And well I used I used to go up to 0:36:53.276 --> 0:36:55.396 the coal fields because I was solo, so I could 0:36:55.596 --> 0:36:57.756 literally wed go around with a small amp, a little 0:36:57.756 --> 0:36:59.076 sixty what amp and a guitar. 0:36:59.276 --> 0:37:00.436 What was your guitar back then? 0:37:00.716 --> 0:37:04.436 Oh? It was a copy of a Gibson less Paul 0:37:04.436 --> 0:37:06.836 made by a company called Arbiter. It was a sort 0:37:06.876 --> 0:37:08.036 of one. It was my punk guitar. 0:37:08.556 --> 0:37:11.156 Right, you're not one of those guys with a lot 0:37:11.156 --> 0:37:11.636 of guitars. 0:37:11.916 --> 0:37:12.196 I'm not. 0:37:12.236 --> 0:37:15.476 No, I'm not really no, because Johnny Marz Yeah yeah. 0:37:15.556 --> 0:37:19.796 End See I did a gig once with Steve Earl 0:37:19.916 --> 0:37:22.156 in Montreal and he was opening for me. He had 0:37:22.156 --> 0:37:25.996 twelve guitars could get on stage. I was like a 0:37:26.036 --> 0:37:30.116 guitar shop on the Wing song exactly it was. Anyway, 0:37:30.196 --> 0:37:32.396 So I'm not that guy. No, No, I do have 0:37:32.476 --> 0:37:34.756 a I carry a couple of guitars I've probably got 0:37:34.796 --> 0:37:37.876 home not more than a half a dozen knocking around 0:37:37.996 --> 0:37:39.076 and you you. 0:37:39.036 --> 0:37:40.876 Know when I when I would first see you play, 0:37:41.796 --> 0:37:45.196 he would play what are called cowboy chords. Yeah, but 0:37:45.276 --> 0:37:47.036 you'd strum the whole thing, which nobody does. 0:37:47.116 --> 0:37:49.196 Yeah. Well, I'm basically a rhythm guitar player in a 0:37:49.196 --> 0:37:51.876 punk band. That's why basically I'm not a lead guitar player. 0:37:51.876 --> 0:37:53.796 I never was a lead guitar player. I'm a rhythm 0:37:53.836 --> 0:37:55.876 guitar player, and I think I'm pretty good at that. 0:37:56.476 --> 0:37:59.996 But it's very percussive. You know. The guitar heroes that 0:38:00.076 --> 0:38:03.116 I have for people like Ray Koda and Ronnie Wood 0:38:03.476 --> 0:38:07.356 and there John Lee Hooker, the guitar star, is pretty percussive. 0:38:07.356 --> 0:38:10.916 It's about the rhythm, you know. So that's where I 0:38:11.076 --> 0:38:12.876 get my licks from, get my ideas from. 0:38:12.996 --> 0:38:14.316 I don't know how we got in that, but oh no. 0:38:14.396 --> 0:38:16.036 He was asking what was it like to. 0:38:16.196 --> 0:38:18.876 In the miner Strike? Yeh yeah, Well, first of all, 0:38:18.916 --> 0:38:23.036 it was it was amazing to see because the audiences 0:38:23.076 --> 0:38:25.916 would be my generation. But the people who were making 0:38:25.956 --> 0:38:28.436 the speeches at the gigs to when they put round 0:38:28.476 --> 0:38:30.636 the bucket to raise a bit more money would often 0:38:30.676 --> 0:38:32.956 be the wives of the miners. So these were women 0:38:32.956 --> 0:38:36.556 who were perhaps ten or fifteen years older, sometimes twenty 0:38:36.596 --> 0:38:39.836 years older than the audience, working class women who probably 0:38:39.876 --> 0:38:41.956 never spoke in public before. Talking to all these little 0:38:41.956 --> 0:38:44.516 punk rockers, it was an amazing thing to see because 0:38:44.516 --> 0:38:47.316 their husbands were either on the picket line or in prison. Right, 0:38:47.396 --> 0:38:49.076 that in itself was amazing to watch. 0:38:49.396 --> 0:38:51.716 This is the eighties, yeah, nine eighty four. It's almost 0:38:51.756 --> 0:38:52.716 all coal mining. 0:38:52.956 --> 0:38:53.716 It's all coal mining. 0:38:53.796 --> 0:38:53.996 Yeah. 0:38:54.196 --> 0:38:56.956 It's predominant in the North of England, South Wales, some 0:38:57.036 --> 0:38:59.116 in Scotland, some in Kent, but predominantly the North of 0:38:59.156 --> 0:39:02.956 England and South Wales, heavy heavy working class areas. You know, 0:39:03.996 --> 0:39:07.196 villages where the pit is absolutely everything, you know, the 0:39:07.236 --> 0:39:11.636 whole village, and they're like under siege from the police 0:39:11.996 --> 0:39:15.196 and the state. And you would go up there and 0:39:15.636 --> 0:39:20.516 the audiences were really really up for it and it 0:39:20.596 --> 0:39:23.276 was just incredibly invigorating, and then you'd very often be 0:39:24.356 --> 0:39:28.756 keeping on their sofa or in their spare room. You know, 0:39:28.796 --> 0:39:30.796 you go back and you know, you go back to 0:39:30.876 --> 0:39:33.076 their assimate your cup of team, maybe a bacon sandwich, 0:39:33.596 --> 0:39:35.476 and then they sit down and talk politics because they 0:39:35.476 --> 0:39:38.876 wanted to know why a pop star from London was 0:39:38.916 --> 0:39:41.796 doing this. Is it just for the fame or you 0:39:41.836 --> 0:39:45.076 actually walk the walk and talk the talk. So very 0:39:45.156 --> 0:39:47.196 quickly I had to sort of because I didn't I 0:39:47.276 --> 0:39:48.636 left go when I was sixteen, so I didn't have 0:39:48.636 --> 0:39:51.516 a political education. I had to sort of learn the 0:39:52.476 --> 0:39:55.716 language of Marxism to be able to put across my 0:39:55.756 --> 0:39:59.156 ideas and define where I was coming from. That was 0:39:59.196 --> 0:40:02.876 a real sharp learning curve. But you know, it was 0:40:03.236 --> 0:40:07.516 a genuine radical situation. It was class. It was my 0:40:07.636 --> 0:40:13.316 class against the state, really, so I couldn't not take part. 0:40:13.356 --> 0:40:17.156 And also I'd listened to all these solo singer songwriters 0:40:17.156 --> 0:40:20.076 in the nineteen sixties trying to change the world through music, 0:40:20.436 --> 0:40:22.316 and now I had opportunity to see if you can 0:40:22.396 --> 0:40:25.716 actually change the world. Does it actually work this? Can 0:40:25.756 --> 0:40:30.476 you go and sing songs and bring about social change? 0:40:30.716 --> 0:40:32.516 Because that's what the clash told me you could. Music 0:40:32.556 --> 0:40:34.396 will change the world, and I kind of believed that. 0:40:34.636 --> 0:40:36.076 Now I had a chance to find out if that 0:40:36.196 --> 0:40:38.396 was true or not. It turns out it's not. 0:40:39.636 --> 0:40:40.596 Was that a whole lesson? 0:40:43.356 --> 0:40:47.156 Initially? Maybe I suppose, But thinking about it, you know, 0:40:47.236 --> 0:40:51.356 logically music has no agency, you know, it's not going 0:40:51.436 --> 0:40:54.636 to win the election. It has the ability to bring 0:40:54.676 --> 0:40:57.436 people together, and that in and of itself is a 0:40:57.476 --> 0:41:01.196 positive thing because change happens, I think in you know, 0:41:01.676 --> 0:41:08.836 is catalyzed by two events. Firstly, your realization that things 0:41:08.836 --> 0:41:14.316 and not right, and then secondly your realization that other 0:41:14.356 --> 0:41:18.196 people have already realized that things are not right. You 0:41:18.236 --> 0:41:20.636 realize you're not the only person who cares about this thing. 0:41:21.196 --> 0:41:24.156 And music can bring you together into an audience where 0:41:24.156 --> 0:41:28.476 you suddenly realize that like, ah okay, like as me rocking, 0:41:28.516 --> 0:41:30.876 it's racism. When I speak from experience here, that's what 0:41:30.916 --> 0:41:34.476 happened to me in Victoria Park in Hackney. I realized 0:41:34.476 --> 0:41:36.236 I wasn't the only person who cared about these things, 0:41:36.236 --> 0:41:38.396 you know. And you know, when I make my pitch 0:41:39.836 --> 0:41:42.956 for a solidarity with the trans community, when I sing 0:41:43.116 --> 0:41:47.036 sexuality on these shows, they will undoubtedly be people my age, 0:41:47.036 --> 0:41:49.756 because my audience predominantly my age in you know, sixties, 0:41:51.236 --> 0:41:53.836 who probably haven't given the issue much thought. It's not 0:41:53.876 --> 0:41:55.796 that they're anti or pro and even it's just something 0:41:55.836 --> 0:41:57.716 like they're like it's too much trouble, but they see 0:41:57.756 --> 0:42:00.196 themselves in an audience who are expressing solidarity with this, 0:42:00.236 --> 0:42:02.956 who are responding positively to what I'm saying, and they 0:42:02.956 --> 0:42:05.316 look around him and they think, Wow, maybe I should 0:42:05.316 --> 0:42:07.796 get off the fence on this, maybe have a think 0:42:07.836 --> 0:42:10.116 about what's going on here, because clearly this is an 0:42:10.116 --> 0:42:12.156 important issue to these people who I have so much 0:42:12.196 --> 0:42:16.316 in come with. And that's how music can affect change, 0:42:16.956 --> 0:42:20.956 not directly, not storm the barricades' way, but just by 0:42:21.396 --> 0:42:25.316 planting ideas in people's minds, introducing them to different concepts, 0:42:25.396 --> 0:42:28.996 challenging their perceptions music. That's one of the things that 0:42:29.076 --> 0:42:31.356 music can do. It doesn't have to do it all 0:42:31.396 --> 0:42:33.916 the time. It's not the defining aspect of it, but 0:42:33.956 --> 0:42:35.516 it's one of the many things it can do. And 0:42:35.556 --> 0:42:39.636 I think coming from a twentieth century music culture in 0:42:39.676 --> 0:42:41.996 which music was our social medium, which I had to 0:42:42.116 --> 0:42:46.996 articulate everything that my generation thought through music, and we had, 0:42:47.196 --> 0:42:49.876 you know, three four weekly music papers in the UK 0:42:49.956 --> 0:42:52.876 to thrash these ideas out. The idea that music should 0:42:52.876 --> 0:42:55.116 be something more than I'm great your shit, you like 0:42:55.196 --> 0:42:59.556 my socks to paraphrase Oasis is still important to me. 0:42:59.996 --> 0:43:02.876 I don't know if younger people feel that way. It's 0:43:02.876 --> 0:43:05.356 not something that I'm going to say, listen, this is 0:43:05.356 --> 0:43:06.716 the way it should be. It's not my job to 0:43:06.716 --> 0:43:09.756 do that. I hear young people write songs about the 0:43:09.756 --> 0:43:12.596 pressure that they feel under. That's enough for me that 0:43:12.636 --> 0:43:14.716 they are talking about that, they are using music to 0:43:14.796 --> 0:43:17.716 articulate their feelings about that. I'm not going to start 0:43:17.796 --> 0:43:20.076 leaning them and say, why don't you write about trade unions. 0:43:20.436 --> 0:43:21.916 I'm not going to write that because they have not 0:43:21.916 --> 0:43:25.316 been through the minor strike. They've had a different cultural perception, 0:43:26.596 --> 0:43:28.316 put culture experience to the one I've had. 0:43:29.556 --> 0:43:31.276 After this last break, we'll be back with the rest 0:43:31.276 --> 0:43:38.796 of Bruce Headlam's conversation with Billy Bragg. Here's the rest 0:43:38.836 --> 0:43:40.716 of our conversation with Billy Bragg. 0:43:41.596 --> 0:43:45.836 The album with Trust Tank Part Salute, Tank Park, Salute, 0:43:45.836 --> 0:43:46.276 Pardon Me. 0:43:47.156 --> 0:43:47.956 Don't try this own? 0:43:48.516 --> 0:43:50.676 It was was Yeah, I thought, are you saying that 0:43:50.716 --> 0:43:52.436 about me trying to say Tank Park. 0:43:54.516 --> 0:43:54.876 At home? 0:43:55.436 --> 0:43:57.676 It was much more a bigger musical. 0:43:58.156 --> 0:43:59.716 It was yeah, did you like that? 0:43:59.876 --> 0:44:02.636 Because people are like, oh, finally you know, Billy Bragg 0:44:02.636 --> 0:44:03.716 has discovered the eighties? 0:44:05.916 --> 0:44:08.036 Well that was that was about being doctrinaire as well 0:44:08.076 --> 0:44:09.036 in some ways, you know. 0:44:09.436 --> 0:44:11.116 But there. You know, when I think of the song, 0:44:11.236 --> 0:44:16.956 you know everywhere Sindy of a thousand lives very different sounds. 0:44:17.436 --> 0:44:19.916 Well, you've got to progress, haven't you one, you know, 0:44:20.476 --> 0:44:22.756 that's that's my thing. But what happened was I wrote 0:44:22.756 --> 0:44:26.716 Sexuality and it kind of sounded like Louis Louis and 0:44:26.836 --> 0:44:30.116 Johnny mar got hold of it and made that track 0:44:30.236 --> 0:44:34.156 that you now hear and it was a shining pop 0:44:34.196 --> 0:44:36.876 monstrosity and when it came back, me and my producer 0:44:36.916 --> 0:44:40.276 Grant Showbiz were like, oh damn, you know, now we're 0:44:40.276 --> 0:44:42.396 going to have to make the album a that that 0:44:42.636 --> 0:44:45.076 sits on. But it was good. It was a challenge, 0:44:45.116 --> 0:44:47.996 you know, and coming as it did, I think, I think, 0:44:48.036 --> 0:44:50.436 if you're really really lucky, you get ten good years 0:44:50.476 --> 0:44:53.116 where people are interested in what you're doing, and you can, 0:44:53.276 --> 0:44:56.396 you know, you can feel that when you do something 0:44:56.436 --> 0:44:59.556 the media will be you know, give you a front 0:44:59.556 --> 0:45:01.236 page and stuff like that. If you get ten years, 0:45:01.236 --> 0:45:02.956 you're really really lucky. And that comes at the end 0:45:02.996 --> 0:45:07.316 of kind of that period where I was, you know, 0:45:07.316 --> 0:45:09.596 I got me on top of the pops. Everybody at 0:45:09.636 --> 0:45:11.396 home thinks it was a huge hit record, which actually 0:45:11.436 --> 0:45:12.996 I only got to number twenty six in the charts. 0:45:13.036 --> 0:45:15.716 But you know the perception of it is that that's 0:45:15.756 --> 0:45:16.236 what it was. 0:45:16.836 --> 0:45:18.156 If you're going to sell out, you've got to get 0:45:18.196 --> 0:45:18.796 to the top ten. 0:45:19.036 --> 0:45:26.076 Yeah, exactly. And consequently, after that record, I had a 0:45:26.116 --> 0:45:27.916 grumble appendix. I was off the road for a while 0:45:27.956 --> 0:45:30.476 and I got together with my partner and we you know, 0:45:30.516 --> 0:45:34.036 we became parents and everything and everything changed. So but 0:45:34.076 --> 0:45:36.276 it was also an aspect of that where I kind 0:45:36.276 --> 0:45:38.716 of painted myself into a corner because I can't really 0:45:38.716 --> 0:45:41.436 be a big production pop star. That's not really who 0:45:41.476 --> 0:45:43.076 I am. I can do it. You want me to 0:45:43.116 --> 0:45:45.316 do it? Here, here we go, I can do it. 0:45:45.436 --> 0:45:47.476 Check out this Ciddy of a thousand Lives. This is 0:45:47.476 --> 0:45:49.796 a song about an American photographer that you've never heard of, 0:45:50.236 --> 0:45:55.276 who does incredible images that are all of herself. Here 0:45:55.316 --> 0:45:58.116 it is Sherman. Yeah, Cindy Sherman, the great Cindy Sherman. 0:45:58.716 --> 0:46:02.156 And so yeah, I was. I was incredibly and still 0:46:02.196 --> 0:46:05.076 am incredibly proud of that record, but I couldn't carry 0:46:05.076 --> 0:46:09.356 on a natural dijectory. You know. It was sort of 0:46:09.436 --> 0:46:16.556 like who want me? So fortunately then I made William Blake, 0:46:16.556 --> 0:46:20.156 which was a much more personal record, much more a 0:46:20.196 --> 0:46:23.156 post parenthood record which I'm which I'm very proud of 0:46:23.196 --> 0:46:23.556 as well. 0:46:24.476 --> 0:46:27.756 And I do want to ask you about Tank Park. 0:46:28.156 --> 0:46:33.716 Sure, Sure, Tank Park salute was. I had a very 0:46:33.756 --> 0:46:37.716 strange genesis. Let's start by saying that when I was eighteen, 0:46:37.756 --> 0:46:39.756 my father died of lung cancer, who was fifty two 0:46:39.836 --> 0:46:46.116 years old. The hospital when he got ill told us 0:46:46.116 --> 0:46:47.636 the best way to deal with this would be not 0:46:47.756 --> 0:46:49.996 to talk about it, not to talk about it in 0:46:50.036 --> 0:46:52.116 front of him, and not to talk about it among ourselves. 0:46:52.156 --> 0:46:54.796 So I have to stop you there, because that is 0:46:54.836 --> 0:46:56.076 so English. 0:46:56.156 --> 0:46:58.236 I know, it's terrible, isn't it, But it's also it's 0:46:58.276 --> 0:47:02.836 also so my father's generation. And looking back now, I 0:47:03.956 --> 0:47:06.796 it was a mistake. My mother really regretted it. She 0:47:06.996 --> 0:47:09.036 really regretted it till the day she died. When she 0:47:09.396 --> 0:47:11.996 got cancer and I went to see her in the hospital, 0:47:12.036 --> 0:47:14.796 she said to me, we're going to talk about this, 0:47:14.876 --> 0:47:18.276 and I'm like, we are, of course, we are, we are. 0:47:18.316 --> 0:47:22.076 She hated it. My father had every opportunity to say 0:47:22.116 --> 0:47:24.756 to me, son, I think I'm dying. Look I'm coughing 0:47:24.796 --> 0:47:27.436 up blood. Look I'm dying. He never did. He never 0:47:27.436 --> 0:47:34.116 said it, so I don't know. My brother, who's five 0:47:34.156 --> 0:47:36.076 years younger than me. He was at school at the time, 0:47:37.036 --> 0:47:39.476 and I was there when my father died. My brothers 0:47:39.476 --> 0:47:43.876 never asked me about it. And I respect that. I'm 0:47:43.876 --> 0:47:45.956 not going to suddenly turn up and say to him 0:47:45.996 --> 0:47:48.436 and listen, I'm going to tell you what happened that day. 0:47:48.996 --> 0:47:50.476 If he doesn't want to know, he doesn't want to know, 0:47:50.916 --> 0:47:53.316 and I respect that. But I was in a very 0:47:53.396 --> 0:47:55.996 weird situation where I never spoke to it about anybody 0:47:56.076 --> 0:47:59.516 I ever. I spoke to it what happened to anybody. 0:48:00.596 --> 0:48:04.356 And then one day I was writing a song and 0:48:04.356 --> 0:48:09.476 a line came out. I closed my eye and when 0:48:09.476 --> 0:48:11.476 I looked, your name was in the memorial book. And 0:48:11.516 --> 0:48:16.476 now where my father's ashes are scattered, they have a 0:48:16.476 --> 0:48:18.756 book there on the anniversary of the day of his death, 0:48:18.796 --> 0:48:20.676 which opens on the page and his name's there. And 0:48:20.716 --> 0:48:21.956 I used to go to it my mum on the 0:48:21.996 --> 0:48:25.316 anniversary and look at the book and go and visit. 0:48:25.396 --> 0:48:30.636 That's what we did. And this line, I was like, oh, now, 0:48:30.636 --> 0:48:34.596 this is interesting. If I go down this path, I'm 0:48:34.596 --> 0:48:36.156 going to be in a situation where I have to 0:48:36.156 --> 0:48:39.796 talk to strangers about what happened. How do I feel 0:48:39.836 --> 0:48:43.636 about that? I wasn't really sure how I felt about that, 0:48:43.676 --> 0:48:46.036 but nonetheless I wrote that song in the next hour. 0:48:46.076 --> 0:48:50.356 It just came out. Who like a there. It was 0:48:50.916 --> 0:48:53.036 fully formed around that old who had that guitar lick. 0:48:53.076 --> 0:48:54.396 That's what I was writing the other song to that 0:48:54.436 --> 0:48:58.596 guitar lick. So the next time was rehearsing in my 0:48:58.676 --> 0:49:02.436 keyboard player car TV I taught at the piano part 0:49:02.516 --> 0:49:05.436 played the song. She said, Oh, that's about your dad, 0:49:05.436 --> 0:49:09.756 don't it. I said, yeah, it is Cary. Yeah. So 0:49:09.796 --> 0:49:11.916 I thought, well, if she didn't get it like that, 0:49:12.036 --> 0:49:16.996 obviously it you know, it's hits the mark. So I 0:49:17.036 --> 0:49:19.756 started playing it live and it had that effect. People 0:49:19.796 --> 0:49:21.476 would come and talk to me about someone that they 0:49:21.476 --> 0:49:26.276 had lost, and still do. People write to me and say, 0:49:26.316 --> 0:49:31.076 you know, your song really helped me to process things 0:49:31.196 --> 0:49:35.596 about how my father or whoever lost, and it's great 0:49:35.636 --> 0:49:37.436 to be able to write back to them and say, 0:49:37.476 --> 0:49:40.116 you know what made it. It had exactly the same 0:49:40.156 --> 0:49:43.356 effect on me. It helped me to process how I 0:49:43.396 --> 0:49:45.316 felt about the loss of my father, to the extent 0:49:45.316 --> 0:49:48.556 that I can now talk about it without being overcome 0:49:49.236 --> 0:49:55.396 with emotion, and so, you know, I'm really pleased to 0:49:55.396 --> 0:49:58.476 have a song about that. My mum, whenever I played 0:49:59.796 --> 0:50:03.116 in London or where she came to see me play, 0:50:03.196 --> 0:50:05.716 she would always say, before you're going to play that song, 0:50:05.716 --> 0:50:07.316 aren't you. I don't think she even knew what it 0:50:07.316 --> 0:50:10.636 was called, play that song. And I would play the song, 0:50:10.676 --> 0:50:12.596 of course. I would play the song nervously while she 0:50:12.676 --> 0:50:16.716 was there, you know, so self consciously. And then my 0:50:16.756 --> 0:50:19.236 nephews will say to me, why do you keep playing 0:50:19.236 --> 0:50:21.076 that song that makes Nan cry every time we come 0:50:21.076 --> 0:50:25.876 and see you, And I'll be like, boys, Asher Nan, 0:50:25.996 --> 0:50:29.316 all right, And then I tell you, yeah. 0:50:29.476 --> 0:50:32.036 I have to say and this is inappropriate. But the 0:50:32.196 --> 0:50:35.316 comic version of the we're not talking the English, we're 0:50:35.316 --> 0:50:39.196 not talking about it, yeah, is and it is my 0:50:39.236 --> 0:50:42.716 favorite line in Spinal Tap Yeah, when they're talking about 0:50:44.036 --> 0:50:46.796 one of the drummers died. Yeah, and the phrases said 0:50:46.796 --> 0:50:51.876 the police said best left unsolved, the most English line. 0:50:52.036 --> 0:50:55.836 That whole thing is that how songs come to you 0:50:55.916 --> 0:50:58.516 a phrase or two, and then that opens up the 0:50:58.556 --> 0:51:00.516 idea you mentioned you wrote a song about. I had 0:51:00.516 --> 0:51:03.436 no idea. Cindy of a Thousand Lives was about Cindy Sherman. 0:51:03.516 --> 0:51:05.756 Oh yeah, Cindy Sherman was a big part of my 0:51:06.916 --> 0:51:10.916 realization of America. On that first trip, I bought loads 0:51:10.916 --> 0:51:13.636 of postcards to send home. But then I just started 0:51:13.636 --> 0:51:15.676 buying postcards that just had images. You know, you can 0:51:15.716 --> 0:51:18.436 get postcard with James brown It, you get a postcard 0:51:18.516 --> 0:51:22.156 with you know, Smoky Robinson the Miracles. And I found 0:51:22.156 --> 0:51:30.156 there's a famous Cindy Sherman photograph of like a child 0:51:30.396 --> 0:51:33.836 with a pig's head eating an apple, and it was 0:51:34.036 --> 0:51:37.476 so weird. It was so weird. I saw it and 0:51:37.516 --> 0:51:39.996 I bought it, and I thought, what the heck, kiss this? 0:51:40.116 --> 0:51:44.116 What madness? What strange weirdness. I mean, America's a weird 0:51:44.196 --> 0:51:48.476 enough place if you've never been here before, but that's, 0:51:48.756 --> 0:51:52.436 to me, summed up the weirdness of America. And I 0:51:52.476 --> 0:51:55.356 subsequently found out what it was and who she was, 0:51:55.436 --> 0:51:57.796 and I bought her, you know, coming to the US 0:51:58.356 --> 0:52:00.436 back and forth in the eighties, I was able to find, 0:52:01.396 --> 0:52:06.636 you know, books about her exhibitions and stuff, and it 0:52:06.756 --> 0:52:09.716 always intrigued me what she was doing that, you know, 0:52:11.436 --> 0:52:14.476 putting herself in the in the absolutely in the art 0:52:14.476 --> 0:52:16.276 as a songwriter, that's something that you try and do. 0:52:16.316 --> 0:52:19.236 You try and put yourself in there, even subconsciously. Sometimes 0:52:19.236 --> 0:52:21.596 you don't realize you're doing it, putting yourself in there. 0:52:21.676 --> 0:52:26.036 So I was very much attracted to that, and when 0:52:26.036 --> 0:52:31.636 I got those weird chords, the song kind of sort 0:52:31.676 --> 0:52:34.396 of developed out of that. Going back to those, I 0:52:34.436 --> 0:52:37.156 think they call them a murder pictures, a kind of 0:52:37.196 --> 0:52:41.396 like weird scary periods she went through, which I think 0:52:42.356 --> 0:52:46.236 it comes after the original, sort of like cinema scenes, 0:52:46.596 --> 0:52:51.156 untitled pictures that are really really There's something about the 0:52:51.276 --> 0:52:56.876 United States America that's very strange to people coming from 0:52:57.116 --> 0:53:00.716 my country is the vastness of it and the fact 0:53:00.836 --> 0:53:05.476 most of it isn't inhabited. Well Springsteen referred to as 0:53:05.516 --> 0:53:07.396 the darkness on the edge of town. We don't have 0:53:07.516 --> 0:53:09.836 much of that in my country. You might have the 0:53:09.916 --> 0:53:11.436 darkness on the edge of town, but you can probably 0:53:11.436 --> 0:53:14.916 see another town just up the ways a bit. You 0:53:14.956 --> 0:53:18.556 don't have that bit where the town ends and there's 0:53:18.676 --> 0:53:22.156 the piney woods, and the piney woods go on for 0:53:22.316 --> 0:53:24.396 miles and miles, and you know, when you're flying in 0:53:24.396 --> 0:53:28.036 over New Jersey sometimes it's piney, piney, piney, piney woods. 0:53:28.036 --> 0:53:31.636 And then while there's New York, it's that like it's 0:53:31.676 --> 0:53:34.756 like the moors around Manchester. You know they're coming there, 0:53:34.836 --> 0:53:38.076 kind of stand around, and as a European you get 0:53:38.076 --> 0:53:42.356 that weird in the pines thing and something that those 0:53:42.516 --> 0:53:46.796 Cindy Sherman postcards from that period of her her art 0:53:46.996 --> 0:53:51.156 really spoke to me about that, that you know, what's 0:53:51.196 --> 0:53:55.036 out there in the majority of on any given night, 0:53:55.156 --> 0:53:57.476 the majority of the United States America is in complete 0:53:57.476 --> 0:54:00.636 and out of darkness. That's a weird thing to someone 0:54:00.676 --> 0:54:03.356 coming from a little island off the coast of Europe. 0:54:03.516 --> 0:54:04.196 Have you met her? 0:54:04.436 --> 0:54:06.796 No, No, I've never met her, but weirdly, she was 0:54:06.836 --> 0:54:10.876 interviewed in The Guardian last month and I was, I was, 0:54:12.076 --> 0:54:14.196 it's always great to read about what she's doing and 0:54:14.236 --> 0:54:15.516 see what she's up to. I don't know if she 0:54:15.556 --> 0:54:19.876 maybe shows an exhibition. And then the very last paragraph, 0:54:20.476 --> 0:54:23.876 the journalist asked her if she'd ever heard the song, 0:54:24.396 --> 0:54:26.716 and she said no. She was very flattered by it. Particularly, 0:54:26.836 --> 0:54:30.036 she said particularly I've never met him, as if I'd 0:54:30.036 --> 0:54:31.916 need to meet her to be able to write a 0:54:31.916 --> 0:54:34.236 song like that, because I don't really need you. 0:54:34.396 --> 0:54:35.036 You're an artist. 0:54:35.436 --> 0:54:38.756 I mean, it's there. It's about how what she did 0:54:38.836 --> 0:54:41.916 move me and I'm responding to that. So it'd be 0:54:41.956 --> 0:54:45.156 lovely to meet her. But whether that would help me 0:54:45.236 --> 0:54:47.876 understand better or anything that she's done, probably not. You know, 0:54:47.956 --> 0:54:52.396 sometimes it's it's lovely to know that she's flattered by it, 0:54:52.436 --> 0:54:56.076 because sometimes you know, people don't. You don't want the attention, 0:54:56.156 --> 0:55:01.276 but a huge respect for someone who can have a 0:55:01.356 --> 0:55:04.516 vision like that and communicate it so powerfully. 0:55:05.596 --> 0:55:08.236 I should ask you, I've never heard you talk about Springsteen. 0:55:08.236 --> 0:55:10.276 You just mentioned it. Are you a fan of a 0:55:10.396 --> 0:55:13.156 huge fan? Huge fan? 0:55:13.436 --> 0:55:17.116 He has that redemptive power as well, like soul music. 0:55:17.836 --> 0:55:21.636 You know, whatever happens for the characters in his song, 0:55:22.196 --> 0:55:24.396 there's always the possibility that they can ride to the 0:55:24.436 --> 0:55:26.316 sea and wash these sins off their hands. You know, 0:55:26.476 --> 0:55:29.276 they're doing racing in the street. I mean darkness on 0:55:29.316 --> 0:55:32.236 the edge of town. We were just talking about about that, 0:55:33.316 --> 0:55:37.076 you know. I mean, is there is there any great 0:55:37.276 --> 0:55:40.356 opening line in pop music? Then they blew up the 0:55:40.436 --> 0:55:42.076 Chicken Man in Philly last night? I mean, what a 0:55:42.116 --> 0:55:46.516 great line that is. It's such a great line. I 0:55:46.556 --> 0:55:50.276 saw him at Meadowlands on born in USA, too blew 0:55:50.356 --> 0:55:52.676 my mind. He made it feel like a club, just 0:55:52.676 --> 0:55:55.356 did my head in completely. I was like, I mean, 0:55:55.356 --> 0:55:57.796 the trouble is I think maybe it's just I don't know, 0:55:57.796 --> 0:55:59.476 it might just be me. Maybe all performances like this. 0:55:59.516 --> 0:56:01.436 But when you go and see a songwriter or you know, 0:56:02.276 --> 0:56:04.316 somebody who does a job similar to your job, you 0:56:04.316 --> 0:56:06.516 spend all your time analyzing what they're doing, how they're 0:56:06.516 --> 0:56:08.596 doing that, why are they doing that, what's going on there? 0:56:08.636 --> 0:56:10.876 You know, it gets in the way of watching Elvis Costello. 0:56:11.156 --> 0:56:13.276 It's impossible for me to enjoy Bob Dylan gig. I'm 0:56:13.276 --> 0:56:15.716 trying to all the time think you know what's going 0:56:15.796 --> 0:56:17.636 on here? But Springsteen was just like. 0:56:19.116 --> 0:56:21.556 I think he's so connected to the audience. There's no 0:56:21.756 --> 0:56:23.796 like I was used to English bands or kind of 0:56:23.876 --> 0:56:26.756 nodding at each other somebody ironically, there's none of that. 0:56:26.876 --> 0:56:30.836 No, he totally He's all there and he doesn't leave anything. 0:56:31.836 --> 0:56:34.636 He doesn't leave anything backstage. It's all there out front. 0:56:34.916 --> 0:56:37.756 You get it every time, and it just gives and 0:56:37.796 --> 0:56:39.676 gives and gives. 0:56:38.996 --> 0:56:44.516 Yeah, after you did William Blook, you did Mermaid, the 0:56:44.516 --> 0:56:48.836 first Mermaid Abby, Yeah, And I think people know the 0:56:49.476 --> 0:56:51.756 sort of genesis of the project that you got all 0:56:51.796 --> 0:56:56.676 these lyrics of Woody Guthrie's. When you saw these archives, 0:56:57.116 --> 0:56:58.956 what surprised you what jumped out. 0:56:59.556 --> 0:57:05.356 How much there was three thousand complete lyrics boxes and boxes. 0:57:05.876 --> 0:57:07.996 The start off pulling out the songs you think are good, 0:57:07.996 --> 0:57:11.676 and you realize, actually, there's amazing songs in there. And 0:57:11.676 --> 0:57:13.236 you pull out the amazing ones and you realize there 0:57:13.236 --> 0:57:14.596 are brilliant songs in there, and you have to go 0:57:14.676 --> 0:57:18.116 back put some back in the box they come out 0:57:18.116 --> 0:57:20.436 of and you realize that, and then you get on 0:57:20.476 --> 0:57:23.396 a thread, and then you realize that, yeah, you get 0:57:23.436 --> 0:57:24.636 a bit of paper and it's got written on the 0:57:24.676 --> 0:57:26.596 bit of you know, it's a song here, but the 0:57:26.636 --> 0:57:28.636 top of the bit of paper someone what he's written 0:57:29.276 --> 0:57:31.516 way over yonder in the minor key. You're like that, 0:57:32.116 --> 0:57:34.356 what does that mean? You go through morning and you 0:57:34.356 --> 0:57:36.596 see again, you know, way over yonder in the minor 0:57:36.676 --> 0:57:38.316 kin and maybe a little bit more of a scrubble lewick. 0:57:39.036 --> 0:57:41.636 And eventually you come to a song that says, let's 0:57:41.636 --> 0:57:43.396 got way over yonder in the minor key in the chorus, 0:57:43.436 --> 0:57:46.436 and you realize it, he's left your paper trail. They 0:57:46.516 --> 0:57:48.836 kind of find somebody to find and connect with his song. 0:57:50.316 --> 0:57:54.156 I think as a listener, what surprised me the most 0:57:54.756 --> 0:57:59.596 was how modern the songs sounded, because I'm not a 0:57:59.676 --> 0:58:03.556 would he got through affection auto he I think to 0:58:03.636 --> 0:58:06.596 many people just seemed like a character from the Grapes 0:58:06.636 --> 0:58:12.276 of Wrath. It's this sort of Sepia toned hobo crossing. 0:58:11.836 --> 0:58:13.396 The country, of course. 0:58:13.556 --> 0:58:17.836 And so the songs were so funny, yep, which surprised me, 0:58:17.916 --> 0:58:19.916 but not funny in the way that you know Christ 0:58:19.956 --> 0:58:23.156 for President or some of his kids songs were. And 0:58:23.276 --> 0:58:24.316 Walt Whitman's niece. 0:58:24.916 --> 0:58:27.116 That's why we opened with it, so everyone knew where 0:58:27.116 --> 0:58:28.436 we were going. Don't think you're going to get the 0:58:28.476 --> 0:58:30.076 dust bowl balladi in mate, this. 0:58:29.996 --> 0:58:31.236 Is well, that's what. 0:58:31.236 --> 0:58:32.996 There's a couple of reasons for that. There's a couple 0:58:33.036 --> 0:58:38.516 of reasons for that. Firstly, Norah Guthrie, Woody's daughter, who 0:58:39.476 --> 0:58:41.476 was running the archive at the time, who asked me 0:58:41.516 --> 0:58:43.876 to come and look at the lyrics. She was concerned 0:58:43.876 --> 0:58:46.996 that this is like the late nineties, her father was 0:58:46.996 --> 0:58:50.996 becoming a bit of a two dimensional figure who you know, 0:58:51.196 --> 0:58:53.276 was only kind of up on a pedestal. It was 0:58:53.276 --> 0:58:57.596 the dust Bowl balladeer, and she rightly pointed out that 0:58:57.636 --> 0:58:59.876 he actually lived half his life in New York City, 0:59:00.796 --> 0:59:03.596 down on Coney Island, at a time when New York 0:59:03.636 --> 0:59:07.676 City was perhaps the most exciting cultural city in the world. 0:59:07.836 --> 0:59:09.836 You know, from nineteen thirty nine until he died in 0:59:09.876 --> 0:59:15.116 nineteen sixty seven, he was here in New York. So 0:59:15.156 --> 0:59:17.956 she wanted that aspect of him to come out. You know, 0:59:17.996 --> 0:59:20.876 everyone had heard the dust Body was one song early on. 0:59:22.196 --> 0:59:25.596 Because Woody often wrote the tunes to traditional tunes, there 0:59:25.596 --> 0:59:28.556 was one song called My thirty thousand that was clearly 0:59:28.596 --> 0:59:31.636 because the lyric, the opening line was written to the 0:59:31.676 --> 0:59:35.316 tune of an old American folk song called Jesse James. 0:59:35.596 --> 0:59:38.996 Jesse James was the man that Lay's children. They were 0:59:39.036 --> 0:59:42.636 brave that tune. And I very proudly, when I'd got 0:59:42.636 --> 0:59:45.596 the first stuff, played it to her and said, yeah, 0:59:45.596 --> 0:59:48.356 look I've got the and she was like, yeah, We've 0:59:48.356 --> 0:59:52.036 got plenty of songs like that. Billy. I was like, oh, okay, 0:59:52.236 --> 0:59:54.716 you want me to, and she was frying songs at 0:59:54.716 --> 0:59:59.236 me that were, you know, totally contrary to people's perception 0:59:59.356 --> 1:00:03.396 of Woody Guffrey, and it was her generosity and encouragement. 1:00:03.556 --> 1:00:06.316 That led me to choose songs like Ingrid Bergman, where 1:00:06.356 --> 1:00:08.636 he talks about making love to the Swedish film star 1:00:08.716 --> 1:00:11.796 on the slope some Italian volcano, My Flying Saucer where 1:00:11.796 --> 1:00:13.756 he goes for a ride on a flying saucer. Not 1:00:13.836 --> 1:00:17.716 things you would think about, would he Gusriye. But to 1:00:17.756 --> 1:00:20.036 take Woody on board, I mean you mentioned the Grapes 1:00:20.076 --> 1:00:23.316 of Wroth, the movie Henry Fonder in the Grapes of Wrath. 1:00:23.356 --> 1:00:27.756 Perhaps in people's mind they associate Woody with that Sepia 1:00:27.836 --> 1:00:31.356 tone period, but yeah, he was there. He did write 1:00:31.356 --> 1:00:34.196 songs in there. But he also lived in New York 1:00:34.236 --> 1:00:37.676 in the forties, so you also have to imagine him 1:00:38.116 --> 1:00:41.356 in the movie On the Town with Frank Sinatra and 1:00:41.396 --> 1:00:45.396 Gene Kelly, the two sailors who are chasing women around 1:00:45.396 --> 1:00:48.676 New York City in nineteen forty in technicolor in full color, 1:00:48.716 --> 1:00:53.276 which incidentally ends in Coney Island. They chase the girls 1:00:53.356 --> 1:00:56.996 to the Coney Island funfair. Wood he lived in that world. 1:00:57.356 --> 1:00:59.836 He wrote many of those songs in that world. That's 1:00:59.876 --> 1:01:03.196 why Nora chose to call the album Mermad Avenue, because 1:01:03.236 --> 1:01:06.756 to focus on that world. So we were out to 1:01:06.836 --> 1:01:11.236 challenge people's perceptions too, as Norris to reboot a father's image, 1:01:11.276 --> 1:01:13.316 and that's why we kicked off with what Whitman's niece. 1:01:13.996 --> 1:01:17.556 So nobody would have any preconceptions that we were going 1:01:17.596 --> 1:01:19.756 to be reverent with the little guy. That's not what 1:01:19.836 --> 1:01:22.796 Laura asked us to do. She asked us to shake 1:01:22.876 --> 1:01:25.356 him up. And with regard to it sounding modern, one 1:01:25.396 --> 1:01:28.196 of the you know, there wasn't many templates for doing 1:01:28.236 --> 1:01:30.716 a project like that, But Jeff and I, I think 1:01:30.756 --> 1:01:34.636 at the time Grail Marcus book Invisible Republic had come 1:01:34.636 --> 1:01:37.756 out about the recording of the Basement Tapes, and I 1:01:37.996 --> 1:01:39.916 certainly read it. I know Jeff had read it as well, 1:01:41.476 --> 1:01:43.396 and I said to him, look, you know, we're this 1:01:43.476 --> 1:01:45.756 is a bit like the Basement Tapes in the sense 1:01:45.796 --> 1:01:47.436 that I don't know if your listeners are familiar with. 1:01:47.476 --> 1:01:49.276 Many of the songs in the Basement Tapes were old 1:01:49.316 --> 1:01:52.236 timey songs. They weren't all Bob Dylan songs that Bob 1:01:52.236 --> 1:01:53.756 had written. A lot of the songs they played were 1:01:53.796 --> 1:01:56.596 old folks songs they were messing around with. And I 1:01:56.636 --> 1:01:59.396 said to Jeff, this is kind of what we're doing 1:01:59.436 --> 1:02:01.836 we're kind of we're kind of messing around with these 1:02:01.876 --> 1:02:05.956 old songs. But the thing about the basement tapes, you 1:02:06.076 --> 1:02:08.956 knew that the although they were playing these old timey songs, 1:02:09.396 --> 1:02:12.396 the people that were playing them had heard Little Richard, 1:02:13.316 --> 1:02:16.356 you know, they'd heard rock and roll. They were in 1:02:16.396 --> 1:02:20.676 that vernacular. So we got to make these records and 1:02:20.676 --> 1:02:22.556 people have got to know that we have heard the clash. 1:02:23.436 --> 1:02:26.076 People have got to know that we've heard cheap trick. 1:02:26.156 --> 1:02:29.196 You know, the Wilkos were big cheap trick fans. I'm like, yeah, 1:02:29.236 --> 1:02:31.156 bring it on, you know, bring it on. We've got 1:02:31.516 --> 1:02:35.476 we've got a opportunity here to take these songs and 1:02:36.876 --> 1:02:38.756 kind of like dress them up anyway. It's like going 1:02:38.756 --> 1:02:40.476 to the dressing up box every day and who we're 1:02:40.476 --> 1:02:43.196 going to be today. Let's be Tom Waits today on 1:02:43.316 --> 1:02:48.916 Meanest Man, you know, let's be Vanilla Fudge, Let's be 1:02:49.156 --> 1:02:52.756 you know, let's just be weird. Let's just take these 1:02:52.796 --> 1:02:55.036 songs apart and put them back together again in a 1:02:55.076 --> 1:02:58.796 different way. And the freedom to do that is why 1:02:58.876 --> 1:03:01.676 we ended up recording fifty three tracks rather than fifteen tracks, 1:03:01.676 --> 1:03:05.356 which we were contracted to do, not least because nort We 1:03:05.356 --> 1:03:08.156 were in Dublin, Nora. We invited Nora over for a 1:03:08.156 --> 1:03:10.556 holiday for a week. She bought another sheaf of songs 1:03:10.556 --> 1:03:14.676 and started the old bloody process. Yeah. Yeah, she suddenly 1:03:14.716 --> 1:03:16.796 turned up with you know, another Man's Done Gone. What 1:03:16.796 --> 1:03:20.156 an incredible song that is? You know so and it 1:03:20.236 --> 1:03:21.996 was a joy to do. I mean, I really enjoyed 1:03:21.996 --> 1:03:25.276 the whole process because hitherto I'd been the guy in 1:03:25.276 --> 1:03:27.996 the studio where everything had to go through me. We had, 1:03:27.996 --> 1:03:31.316 you know, every decision, what songs next, how do you 1:03:31.356 --> 1:03:33.516 want to record it? When are we having a t break? 1:03:33.956 --> 1:03:36.876 What biscuits are we having? You know everything. Whereas in 1:03:36.916 --> 1:03:39.516 that process there was it was a you know, a 1:03:39.516 --> 1:03:41.516 two andre if not a three andder with Jay Bennett 1:03:41.516 --> 1:03:44.836 as well, between me, Jeff and Jay and the band. 1:03:45.036 --> 1:03:46.676 You know, we were taking it in turns. It was 1:03:46.876 --> 1:03:47.876 what we're going to do next? 1:03:48.756 --> 1:03:49.916 Did it change your rating? 1:03:50.236 --> 1:03:53.236 After all? It did? Yeah, it did. Because one of 1:03:53.276 --> 1:03:56.396 the things I realized looking through Woody's work is that, 1:03:56.756 --> 1:03:58.636 and he said as much in his writings that you know, 1:03:58.676 --> 1:04:00.356 he never wrote a cynical song in his life. He 1:04:00.396 --> 1:04:02.836 never wrote a song that put people down. I think 1:04:02.836 --> 1:04:05.636 that's where I kind of started to understand what a 1:04:06.116 --> 1:04:10.756 corrosive thing cynicism is. If you know, you know, would 1:04:10.836 --> 1:04:14.516 famously add on his guitar, this machine kills fascists. If 1:04:14.516 --> 1:04:16.036 I had to have something written on my guitar, we'll 1:04:16.036 --> 1:04:20.556 be death to cynicism. And by cynicism, I don't mean skepticism. 1:04:20.596 --> 1:04:22.956 I think that's healthy, it's helpful. I don't mean doubt. 1:04:23.356 --> 1:04:26.556 Never trust anyone who has no doubts. I'm talking about 1:04:27.076 --> 1:04:29.516 those people who've given up and they want you to 1:04:29.516 --> 1:04:31.596 give up as well, and it makes them feel better about 1:04:31.596 --> 1:04:33.596 the decision they've made. I've no time for those people, 1:04:33.756 --> 1:04:38.556 you know. To me, you know, cynicism is what makes 1:04:38.596 --> 1:04:42.476 you think nothing will ever change. Cynicism is what makes 1:04:42.556 --> 1:04:45.636 you fear that nobody else cares about this stuff. It's 1:04:45.636 --> 1:04:48.676 what Fox News want you to believe. And I'm, you know, 1:04:49.196 --> 1:04:56.236 like Woody, I'm you know, committed to destroying that feeling 1:04:56.276 --> 1:04:58.436 in people then kicking it to the curve as often 1:04:58.436 --> 1:04:59.956 as I can not to say that I'm not prone 1:04:59.996 --> 1:05:02.436 to my own cynicism. How could you not be? The 1:05:02.476 --> 1:05:05.916 way politics have gone in the last thirty years, But 1:05:06.076 --> 1:05:08.716 you have to fight it all the time in order 1:05:08.756 --> 1:05:12.476 to recognize that the glasses half full, and that if 1:05:12.956 --> 1:05:16.276 ordinary people are given the opportunity to pull the leaves 1:05:16.316 --> 1:05:17.916 of power, we would live in a better world. You 1:05:17.916 --> 1:05:19.876 have to believe in people and what they what they do. 1:05:20.396 --> 1:05:22.956 I want to ask you about two projects you did 1:05:22.996 --> 1:05:25.396 because it was with one of our favorite people here. 1:05:25.796 --> 1:05:26.636 It was Joe Henry. 1:05:26.716 --> 1:05:27.316 Oh yeah. 1:05:27.356 --> 1:05:29.036 And first of all, and this gets to the sense 1:05:29.076 --> 1:05:34.876 of place, the field recordings. You taped train songs from where. 1:05:34.716 --> 1:05:36.676 Was the Chicago to Los Angeles? 1:05:36.796 --> 1:05:38.876 Chicago to Los Angeles new tape. I don't know how 1:05:38.916 --> 1:05:40.796 many you tape. There's about ten on the record. 1:05:40.876 --> 1:05:43.156 Yeah, yeah, I think it's what was he? 1:05:43.676 --> 1:05:44.636 How did that come about? 1:05:45.036 --> 1:05:47.916 Well, it's a bit convoluted, but I'll try. While I 1:05:47.956 --> 1:05:53.116 was writing the Skiffle book in Touch by Aperture Photography 1:05:53.196 --> 1:05:56.476 magazine and they wanted to send me out on the road. 1:05:56.916 --> 1:06:05.596 It was a the anniversary of The Americans, the photo 1:06:05.676 --> 1:06:06.436 book by. 1:06:07.796 --> 1:06:08.356 Robert Frank. 1:06:08.436 --> 1:06:10.076 Thank you very much for Robert Frank. I'm so bad 1:06:10.076 --> 1:06:12.756 with names. I do apologize everyone. Robert Frank's great book 1:06:12.796 --> 1:06:16.516 The Americans, which is amazing photography book. They wanted to 1:06:16.556 --> 1:06:21.236 send someone out on the road. A photographer out on 1:06:21.276 --> 1:06:27.476 the road with me, and so I had a chat 1:06:27.516 --> 1:06:29.436 with him and I said, you know, that's really boring 1:06:29.516 --> 1:06:31.356 being on the road. Really, I'm just like, you know, 1:06:31.396 --> 1:06:32.796 I'm in the van and I'm at a gig, And 1:06:33.956 --> 1:06:36.436 I said, can't we do it? You know, it would 1:06:36.436 --> 1:06:38.436 be more interested to do a road trip somewhereere I've 1:06:38.476 --> 1:06:43.916 never been in America. And they said, well, where would 1:06:43.956 --> 1:06:45.476 you like to go in America that you've never been. 1:06:46.516 --> 1:06:50.036 I said, I'd like to go to Rock Island, where 1:06:50.036 --> 1:06:52.756 the Rock Island Line comes from. And the guy said 1:06:52.756 --> 1:06:58.756 to me, where's that? I said, I don't know. It 1:06:58.876 --> 1:07:04.516 turns out it's in in the far west of Illinois 1:07:04.636 --> 1:07:12.556 on the border with Iowa. It's the mississ the Mississippi divides, 1:07:12.596 --> 1:07:16.196 and it's where they built the first bridge across the Mississippi. 1:07:17.676 --> 1:07:22.516 So we went there, and we drove down to Arkansas, 1:07:22.596 --> 1:07:26.556 where the song Rock Island line comes from. And when 1:07:26.596 --> 1:07:28.516 we went to the railway station there, we wanted to 1:07:28.516 --> 1:07:30.396 get the midnight train to come in. So we do 1:07:30.436 --> 1:07:32.916 a photo with the midnight train and it come in 1:07:33.196 --> 1:07:35.676 and it sat there for forty minutes, just sat there 1:07:36.876 --> 1:07:39.476 and what's that about and it turns out that there 1:07:39.476 --> 1:07:42.916 are so few passenger trains outside the Northeast corner that 1:07:45.356 --> 1:07:48.076 when a passenger train like one a day really on 1:07:48.076 --> 1:07:52.076 that line through Little Rock where we were, they have 1:07:52.156 --> 1:07:54.196 to stay in the railway station let the freight train through. 1:07:54.756 --> 1:07:56.836 They used the railway station almost like a side in. 1:07:58.676 --> 1:08:00.236 And it turned out I got the schedule, and it 1:08:00.276 --> 1:08:02.756 turned out it stopped in every big city forty minutes. 1:08:03.476 --> 1:08:05.036 And it occurred to me that you could use that 1:08:05.076 --> 1:08:06.876 time to record a song. You get off the train, 1:08:07.236 --> 1:08:12.796 go into the waiting room, find a suitably acoustic corner, 1:08:13.276 --> 1:08:15.796 play a train song, jump back on the train, and 1:08:16.356 --> 1:08:18.556 keep going, play some on the train maybe you know. 1:08:19.516 --> 1:08:23.836 And so you know, Joe Henry had produced my album 1:08:23.876 --> 1:08:27.036 before that, Tooth and Nail, and he's a dear friend 1:08:27.076 --> 1:08:29.756 of mine, Joe, I love him the bits, and I 1:08:29.916 --> 1:08:32.396 came up with this cockamaney idea and he said, yeah, 1:08:32.556 --> 1:08:35.716 that would be brilliant. So over the course of three 1:08:35.796 --> 1:08:38.836 or four days we were on the train, and it 1:08:38.916 --> 1:08:45.076 was it was a revelation because the train comes through 1:08:45.076 --> 1:08:48.316 the kind of what was it, iggy pop call at 1:08:48.316 --> 1:08:50.876 the ripped back sides of the city. Because you're you know, 1:08:50.916 --> 1:08:53.316 you're you're slowing down to go over the roads. Yeah, 1:08:53.436 --> 1:08:54.956 you're slowing down to go over the roads. And you're 1:08:54.956 --> 1:08:57.636 looking in someone's backyard in their parlor. You see them 1:08:57.636 --> 1:08:59.716 all sitting there having a dinner. It's in America. I 1:08:59.756 --> 1:09:02.556 certainly never seen. And my compadres who are working with me, 1:09:02.636 --> 1:09:05.076 Joe and the guy who recorded it and the guys 1:09:05.076 --> 1:09:07.356 who took some photos and did some filming, they were 1:09:07.356 --> 1:09:09.076 blown away by this. And they've never been on a 1:09:09.156 --> 1:09:11.836 training before, I don't think. Really, Yeah, it's really strange. 1:09:12.436 --> 1:09:15.596 They were like, wow, this is like a completely different 1:09:15.956 --> 1:09:18.476 you know, it kind of comes down the from Chicago, 1:09:18.516 --> 1:09:22.396 comes down to San Antonio and then it kind of 1:09:22.396 --> 1:09:25.756 follows the Rio Grande and uh and then off across 1:09:25.796 --> 1:09:29.756 Arizona into into Union Station in Los Angeles. And we 1:09:29.876 --> 1:09:31.916 had the best time in the trains had you know, 1:09:31.916 --> 1:09:35.916 they have a shower on there. We have a dining 1:09:35.996 --> 1:09:37.796 car and they always sit here on a table with 1:09:37.916 --> 1:09:40.236 people that you haven't sat with before, so that that's 1:09:40.276 --> 1:09:42.516 always someone who and who's on the trains. The people 1:09:42.516 --> 1:09:47.076 on the trains are either tourists, people who worked on 1:09:47.116 --> 1:09:50.956 the railways or their father worked on the railways, and 1:09:51.116 --> 1:09:53.916 people who don't want to show their idea an airport 1:09:54.876 --> 1:09:59.036 are on trains. So it's a really interesting trip. When 1:09:59.076 --> 1:10:00.956 you sit down and talk to people at the table, 1:10:01.356 --> 1:10:04.636 you know, it's what you're doing and we are you know, 1:10:04.636 --> 1:10:06.756 you learn, We learn a lot. 1:10:07.476 --> 1:10:09.556 Was it easy to find places in the train stations 1:10:09.556 --> 1:10:11.156 where you could get good acoustics? 1:10:11.236 --> 1:10:14.116 Yeah, generally. Yeah. We obviously we told the crew that 1:10:14.196 --> 1:10:16.156 what we were doing. Well. I had a guy I 1:10:16.196 --> 1:10:18.516 had a contact at Amtrak who was a musician, really 1:10:18.516 --> 1:10:20.516 fortunate and he set it up for me. We met 1:10:20.596 --> 1:10:25.316 him in Union Station in Chicago. So they have all aboard. 1:10:25.316 --> 1:10:26.956 They have three all the boards. The first all the boards, 1:10:26.996 --> 1:10:28.916 the general all the board, the second all the board 1:10:28.996 --> 1:10:30.516 is better, get the board, and then the last all 1:10:30.516 --> 1:10:33.156 the board is goodbye. So we just had to listen 1:10:33.196 --> 1:10:35.276 out for the second all the board and make sure 1:10:35.316 --> 1:10:36.956 we were on our way back to the train so 1:10:36.956 --> 1:10:40.196 we didn't get left behind. One of the things about 1:10:40.196 --> 1:10:45.476 Amtrak is their schedule was a bit a bit hit 1:10:45.516 --> 1:10:48.996 and miss. Yeah. One of the guys English guys said 1:10:48.996 --> 1:10:51.716 that they got in twenty four hours late to Union 1:10:51.876 --> 1:10:55.476 and it's only a forty eight hour train journey. They 1:10:55.516 --> 1:10:58.716 got in a whole day late due to problems with 1:10:58.716 --> 1:11:02.396 freight trains on the line, and we were do to 1:11:02.436 --> 1:11:09.076 get into Union Station, Los Angeles at kind of seven am. 1:11:09.116 --> 1:11:11.356 We've got it at four am, and the one time ever 1:11:11.436 --> 1:11:13.116 they were early, we got it at four am. But 1:11:13.196 --> 1:11:16.076 it was cool because we ended up finding nobody about. 1:11:16.076 --> 1:11:18.436 We found this loveliest space to record our last song, 1:11:18.436 --> 1:11:23.476 which was Early Morning Rain by Gordon Lightfoot, which compares 1:11:23.556 --> 1:11:28.756 the jetplane to the railways. A brilliant, brilliant song. And 1:11:28.836 --> 1:11:31.956 where we sang it was behind us there was a 1:11:31.956 --> 1:11:35.516 little garden square and as we sang it, the birds 1:11:35.516 --> 1:11:37.076 began to wake up. They must have heard us, and 1:11:37.116 --> 1:11:39.716 they started singing, and you can hear them just in 1:11:39.756 --> 1:11:41.956 the background starting to sing in the bushes behind us 1:11:41.956 --> 1:11:45.156 as he's starting to get light. It was a brilliant, 1:11:45.156 --> 1:11:49.316 brilliant experience, and I encourage any of you out there 1:11:49.316 --> 1:11:51.076 we want to see a different kind of America to 1:11:51.116 --> 1:11:53.396 take the trip. There's another route to Los Angeles goes 1:11:53.396 --> 1:11:56.116 through the Rockies, the California Zephyr. We went on the 1:11:56.116 --> 1:12:00.636 Texas Eagle, but it really is an amazing experience and 1:12:00.716 --> 1:12:03.596 it's and given the grief you have to go through, 1:12:03.716 --> 1:12:06.556 to go through airports to get around America. I don't 1:12:06.556 --> 1:12:09.596 know why there isn't a high speed train link, you know, 1:12:10.396 --> 1:12:14.316 San Francisco to Los Angeles, a bullet train, you know, 1:12:14.436 --> 1:12:18.756 as the atmosphere gets more turbulent, the possibility of high 1:12:18.756 --> 1:12:20.676 speed trains, I think you really should check it out, 1:12:20.676 --> 1:12:23.756 because the trains that make America. America before the trains 1:12:23.836 --> 1:12:26.796 is a completely different place to America after the training. 1:12:26.876 --> 1:12:31.076 Before the train, it was only really feasible to build 1:12:32.196 --> 1:12:36.036 settlements inland on rivers because you just couldn't get the 1:12:36.036 --> 1:12:39.316 stuff there was, you know, too many piney woods in 1:12:39.356 --> 1:12:41.956 the way, you know, so all the big towns and 1:12:41.956 --> 1:12:44.996 the big cities are all on the great rivers. Once 1:12:45.036 --> 1:12:50.196 the railway comes, then you know, it opens the whole 1:12:50.236 --> 1:12:54.036 continent up. And I don't think doing the record and 1:12:54.556 --> 1:12:57.796 doing the research that went with it, I don't think 1:12:57.836 --> 1:13:02.476 there's ever been a more transformative technology for humankind than 1:13:02.516 --> 1:13:06.996 the railroad. The change it brings for thousands of years 1:13:07.036 --> 1:13:08.916 of nothing being able to go faster than a horse 1:13:08.916 --> 1:13:11.996 could gallup or ship could sail, suddenly to have something 1:13:12.036 --> 1:13:14.996 that not could only go at a higher speed, but 1:13:15.076 --> 1:13:20.796 could connect you directly to anywhere in the continent, so 1:13:20.836 --> 1:13:24.316 that you could order something from Chicago and it would 1:13:24.396 --> 1:13:27.716 arrive two or three days later, it would physically be there. 1:13:27.756 --> 1:13:31.476 It's so much more, I think, so much more revolutionary 1:13:31.476 --> 1:13:33.636 than the Internet what we've experienced in our lifetimes, which 1:13:33.716 --> 1:13:38.516 is in itself revolutionary. But you know, Amazon is nothing 1:13:38.556 --> 1:13:42.036 to the ability of people to order something from a 1:13:42.316 --> 1:13:45.476 catalog out east and it end up in this tiny 1:13:45.476 --> 1:13:48.876 little town in wherever, you know, Nevada or whatever, something 1:13:48.916 --> 1:13:51.516 like that, and also people could get on it. I mean, 1:13:51.556 --> 1:13:54.436 so many of those those blue songs about the railroad 1:13:54.476 --> 1:13:58.356 because that was another level of emancipation for African Americans 1:13:58.836 --> 1:14:01.476 to get to the big cities up north where you 1:14:01.556 --> 1:14:03.836 weren't constantly you know, there was of course there was 1:14:03.836 --> 1:14:06.396 still racism. Of course there was still discrimination, but it 1:14:06.396 --> 1:14:12.076 wasn't the Jim Crow type up there. That emmancipatory nature 1:14:12.076 --> 1:14:14.996 of the railroads in America was That's why we wanted 1:14:14.996 --> 1:14:16.196 to take them songs back there. 1:14:16.636 --> 1:14:18.836 It was also the way people told time back then. Yeah, 1:14:18.876 --> 1:14:21.596 you knew that was the three or four. 1:14:21.916 --> 1:14:24.356 In my country. That's when they had to synchronize all 1:14:24.396 --> 1:14:26.876 the clocks in the country because before and they just 1:14:26.876 --> 1:14:28.596 did it when it was got darker, when it got light. 1:14:28.876 --> 1:14:31.436 But once the railroad come, everything had to run on 1:14:31.556 --> 1:14:34.716 a scheduled timetable. And it's like, it's interesting, you know, 1:14:34.836 --> 1:14:39.716 if you if you go back to the story that 1:14:39.836 --> 1:14:44.756 made Charles Dickens the Pickwick Papers, it's about the pre 1:14:44.836 --> 1:14:48.276 industrial age, you know. It's why we Brits are all 1:14:48.316 --> 1:14:51.076 obsessed with Jane Austin. It's all going back to that 1:14:51.116 --> 1:14:55.316 prelapse area period before the Industrial Revolution, before the railroad came, 1:14:55.636 --> 1:14:58.476 there was this kind of you know, dizzy kind of 1:14:59.316 --> 1:15:02.116 Garden of Eden vibe with the aristocracy and all that 1:15:02.196 --> 1:15:05.836 kind of stuff. It's very interesting how the railroad comes 1:15:05.876 --> 1:15:13.396 to symbolize modernity and any on dynamicism, and particularly in 1:15:13.396 --> 1:15:16.196 this continent, it changes everything. 1:15:16.716 --> 1:15:20.276 Well, you woke up the birds in Los Angeles. It's 1:15:20.276 --> 1:15:22.396 a very woody Guthrie image. I think we should end there. 1:15:22.436 --> 1:15:23.756 Thank you so much for coming in well. 1:15:23.676 --> 1:15:25.796 Pleasure, thank you having I've been great chatting with email. 1:15:28.716 --> 1:15:30.756 Thanks so much to Billy Bragg for stopping off during 1:15:30.756 --> 1:15:33.196 his tour to chat with Bruce Headlam. Here a playlist 1:15:33.236 --> 1:15:35.316 of some of our favorite Billy Bragg songs. Visit the 1:15:35.356 --> 1:15:38.356 link in our show notes or at broken Record podcast 1:15:38.516 --> 1:15:41.436 dot com, and be sure to follow us on Instagram 1:15:41.476 --> 1:15:44.236 at the broken Record PI. You can follow us on 1:15:44.236 --> 1:15:47.916 Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced by Leah 1:15:47.996 --> 1:15:51.076 Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. 1:15:51.396 --> 1:15:55.076 Our engineer is Ben Tollivian. Broken Record is a production 1:15:55.236 --> 1:15:58.596 of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others 1:15:58.676 --> 1:16:03.076 from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 1:16:03.076 --> 1:16:06.596 a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and adflete listening 1:16:06.676 --> 1:16:09.716 for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushing a 1:16:09.716 --> 1:16:13.636 Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, 1:16:13.796 --> 1:16:16.276 please remember to share, rate, and review us on your 1:16:16.316 --> 1:16:17.116 podcast app. 1:16:17.396 --> 1:16:20.076 Our theme music's back Anny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.