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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Billy Bragg came up in East London, Barking, Essex

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Speaker 1: to be exact, which is fitting given the characteristic howl

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Speaker 1: of his vocals. Listening to him these days, it's hard

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Speaker 1: not to recall the late Great Joe Drummer or the

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Speaker 1: modern brilliance of Archie Marshall aka King Krule, but Bragg's

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Speaker 1: musical output stands apart from an above comparison. In the

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Speaker 1: mid eighties and era driven by production, he was all

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Speaker 1: about songs and was one of the great standard bearers

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Speaker 1: of political music, carried on from both the folk and

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Speaker 1: punk traditions. In his conversation with Bruce Headlam, Bragg talks

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Speaker 1: about music as a political tool and whether it can

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Speaker 1: truly affect change. Reminisces about his first trip to the

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Speaker 1: US and eighty four opening for Echo and the Bunnyman,

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Speaker 1: and his collaboration with Willcoe to bring unpublished Woody Guthrie

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Speaker 1: songs to life. This is broken record Lander notes for

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Speaker 1: the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Headlerman conversation

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Speaker 1: with Billy Bragg.

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Speaker 2: You're touring right now.

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Speaker 3: I am, yeah. I'm basically doing a week of shows

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Speaker 3: before a Newport Folk Festival. That's what this trip is about.

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Speaker 3: And then I'm coming back in the autumn, late September,

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Speaker 3: October and starting in actually starting in Vancouver, down the

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Speaker 3: West Coast, up through the Midwest, over to the East

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Speaker 3: Coast and down to finishing off in Washington, DC. A

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Speaker 3: four months on tour. So that's the kind of fortieth anniversary.

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Speaker 3: So it's forty years ago next month that I first

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Speaker 3: came to America to open Frek Underbunnyman.

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Speaker 2: Amazing. Yeah, how is it this time compared to forty

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Speaker 2: years ago?

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Speaker 3: You got to remember, I'm someone who'd never been on

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Speaker 3: a plane before I got this job. I was twenty

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Speaker 3: five years old. And we come across the Atlantic and

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Speaker 3: I'm on the left hand side of the plane. So

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Speaker 3: it's coming to JFK. So we come down Long Island.

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Speaker 3: You can't receee anything apart from ocean, and then it

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Speaker 3: starts banking to you know, coming to JFK, and I

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Speaker 3: start to see America and I see these rows of

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Speaker 3: houses and I'm like, okay, this is amazing. So coming

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Speaker 3: in yesterday, I was the same side of the plane.

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Speaker 3: We come through the clouds and as the plane banked

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Speaker 3: I'm not a happy flyer. So I listened to music

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Speaker 3: when I'm not watching films, particularly landing and takeoff, and

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Speaker 3: it's just on random. It just goes for I don't

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Speaker 3: like the track, I'll just bang forward till I find

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Speaker 3: something like a scarboroughfare come on by Simon and Garfank call.

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Speaker 3: And as it did, the plane banked exactly the same way,

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Speaker 3: and I looked down. I thought, I got it. I'm

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Speaker 3: getting a thingle talking about it now, thinking back to

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Speaker 3: that first time we came to the United States of

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Speaker 3: America in August of nineteen eighty four. It was swotering

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Speaker 3: hot and the Olympics were on the La Olympics, I think,

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Speaker 3: and we stayed in the Iroquois Hotel in Midtown and

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Speaker 3: I had four or five nights performing on the roof

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Speaker 3: of the dance Materia, which was an amazing introduction to

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Speaker 3: life in America, not least because looking uptown from the

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Speaker 3: dance Materia from where I was standing on the stage,

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Speaker 3: the vista was absolutely dominated by the Empire State Building,

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Speaker 3: which lit up as the sun went down, the lights

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Speaker 3: on it. It was like, Okay, this is it, this

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Speaker 3: is America. Here we are let's do this. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm very happy memories of toom of our under bunnyman

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Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty four because I stayed on the bus

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Speaker 3: where the bunny men were on the bus the first half,

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Speaker 3: and then they got bored and started flying. But I

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Speaker 3: had me and my best friend from school, WIGGI came

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Speaker 3: with me, and we stayed on the tour bus and

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Speaker 3: as a result saw a lot more of America than

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Speaker 3: if we had just seen the airports and the hotels.

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Speaker 2: What stands out from that from traveling around in a bus.

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Speaker 3: We did a shower in Chicago, and we went asleep

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Speaker 3: on the bus, and when we woke up, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I wonder where we are now. So I went up

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Speaker 3: and sat next to the driver and I said where

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Speaker 3: are we now? Man? He said, we're in Illinois. I said, no, no,

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Speaker 3: where are we now? Said yeah, we're in Illinois. I

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Speaker 3: said no, no, we started in Illinois, Chicago. Where are

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Speaker 3: we at the moment? And he's like, we're still in Illinois.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, how can we be in illinoy, I've been

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Speaker 3: driving for twelve hours. He looked to me like, you

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Speaker 3: don't know half of its son. So yeah, that the

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Speaker 3: vastness of America.

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Speaker 2: That was one, Well, I hope you stuck with it,

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Speaker 2: because once you hit Saint Louis, there's a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a hill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that as well. And the other

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Speaker 3: one was we realized in that that drive was Chicago

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Speaker 3: to New Orleans NonStop drives. We realized you would have

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Speaker 3: to stop somewhere somewhere, You're gonna have to stop. I said,

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Speaker 3: and where are you Where are you going to? Where

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Speaker 3: are you going to stop? Said? Oh no, somewhere around Memphis.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, interesting, any chance you could stop

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Speaker 3: at Gracelands And he's like, no, I'm not going into

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Speaker 3: not going into Memphis. This is a total a nightmare

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Speaker 3: driving in and out of Memphis. Forget it. We'll just

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Speaker 3: it will just be a truck stop somewhere. You'll be fine.

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Speaker 3: You'll be able to get a meal and a coffee.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, So I went back with the crew,

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Speaker 3: the lighting crew and the sound crew, and I said, look,

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Speaker 3: there's nine of us. If we all put ten bucks

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Speaker 3: in remember this nineteen eighty four as well, we will

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Speaker 3: put ten bucks in and give him ninety bucks. We

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Speaker 3: might be able to bribe him to go asleep for

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Speaker 3: four hours in the car park at Gracelands, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, that's got to be worth ten parks. So

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Speaker 3: we put it together. We made him off. He was

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Speaker 3: very grumpy about it, but he did do it. I

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Speaker 3: remember him saying to us, remember where we parked, and

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Speaker 3: so we got that. We actually got to go around

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Speaker 3: Gracelands before Priscilla tided it up. So we saw the

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Speaker 3: kind of the depths, the pile of the carpet in

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Speaker 3: the jungle room, the room with all the gold records

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Speaker 3: down the side, and the costumes reminded me of how

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Speaker 3: a Carter said when he opened two chunk Harmen's tomb.

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Speaker 3: Everywhere a glint of gold. It's like we would come

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Speaker 3: to see, you know, the Pharaoh Memphis as well. I

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Speaker 3: mean that kind of yeah. That kind of made it

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Speaker 3: even more like we were come to see the boy King.

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Speaker 3: And then when we got to New Orleans, we woke

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Speaker 3: up on the band decided to go to Bourbon Street.

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Speaker 3: So I went with them and we saw this guy playing.

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Speaker 3: I'll think of his what was his name. I'd never

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Speaker 3: heard of him before or since, Mason Rufner. I think

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Speaker 3: his name was slick back guy, skinny guy playing its

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Speaker 3: black telecaster. Incredible thing. But he did this thing where

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Speaker 3: he went down the notes in the basstring of the

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Speaker 3: telecaster with his elbow while pointing at the audience like

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Speaker 3: that thing like it. And you remember, this is all

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Speaker 3: in one day. This is the day where we woke

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Speaker 3: up still in Illinois. So that passage of time where

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Speaker 3: we went from the Great Lakes to the Gulf. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've never done anything like that. Again. I've traveled, you know,

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Speaker 3: I've done some huge drives, I've done some great journeys.

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Speaker 3: I've been in some amazing situations, But in twenty four hours,

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Speaker 3: I don't think I ever did anything as mind blowing

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Speaker 3: as what we did in that drive from Chicago to

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Speaker 3: New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: Were you an Elvis fan?

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Speaker 3: I was, Yeah. I mean I think from my generation,

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Speaker 3: it's hard to get to rock and roll without going

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Speaker 3: through Elvis. I mean, if you think of the cover

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Speaker 3: of London Calling, it's a homage to Elvis's first album graphically,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I think there's so many different Elvis's.

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Speaker 3: You can choose your Elvis, you know, for some people

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Speaker 3: it's Sun Records Elvis. I mean, that's why I wanted

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Speaker 3: a lot of echo on my first album, so it

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Speaker 3: sounded like Elvis's Sun Records. But my favorite Elvis is

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Speaker 3: political Elvis. You know Elvis that for his Christmas Special

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Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight has specially written for him if

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Speaker 3: I Can Dream, and sings it at the end of

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Speaker 3: the Christmas Special in front of the big words Elvis

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Speaker 3: and looks into the camera and sings this incredible song,

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Speaker 3: which in the wake of nineteen sixty eight, which is

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Speaker 3: in the year where Dr King was assassinated and Bobby

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Speaker 3: Kennedy was assassinated while they were making the Christmas Special

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Speaker 3: while they were filming it, to say to talk about

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Speaker 3: a dream, you know, having a dream in which our

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Speaker 3: brothers walk hand in hand. I mean, that's that's pretty brave,

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Speaker 3: that's pretty political. And then he comes out within the

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Speaker 3: ghetto and goes to that run of great thing was briefly,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's a there's a moment there where you

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Speaker 3: might think Elvis could pick up the mantle of the

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Speaker 3: the Kennedy Brothers and unify America. Because he doesn't. He

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Speaker 3: goes to Gracelands and takes loads of amphetamines. But the

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Speaker 3: possibility of that is interesting. It's it's a really it's

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Speaker 3: a really great moment in pop history as well. And

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Speaker 3: it's he does he does it because he I mean,

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Speaker 3: he specifically asked to do it. Colonel Parker wants him

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Speaker 3: to finish with I'll behind by Christmas, a dreadful you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of modeling Christmas song, and he's like, I need

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Speaker 3: something else, so he gets his musical director to come

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Speaker 3: up with this if I Can Dream, and and he

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Speaker 3: really goes for it. If you watch the clip it's

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Speaker 3: on YouTube, it is even.

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Speaker 2: When you said political Elvis, I was like, he olviously

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Speaker 2: don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, A fucking dream is a in its context.

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Speaker 3: In its context, it's Elvis connecting with that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think he felt Dr King being assassinated in his

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Speaker 3: town as well. I think he felt that, he really

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Speaker 3: felt that. And that year was such a tumultuous year

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Speaker 3: in the United States and Elvis had something to say

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: M hmm. That's interesting because even even the sixty eight

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Speaker 2: Elvis from Me was almost betraying the sort of Sun

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Speaker 2: Records Elvis I loved so much, you know, rushing through songs, yeah,

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Speaker 2: finishing everything with a karate chop or something.

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Speaker 3: The thing about Elvis is he's the first one. You know,

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Speaker 3: he doesn't know how to do this. It's like Lonnie

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Speaker 3: Donegan in England. You know, he was the first guy.

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Speaker 3: He wasn't really prepared for what was going to happen

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Speaker 3: to him. You know, He's out there on the ice,

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Speaker 3: taking one step after the other, never knowing when it

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Speaker 3: was going to break. Everyone who came in his wake,

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Speaker 3: including the Beatles, you know, including everybody, have at least

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Speaker 3: that had an idea model. You know, why didn't the

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Speaker 3: beat was going to films because Elvis did. Even Lonnie

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Speaker 3: Doneghan made a film, you know, that's what they did.

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Speaker 3: They they followed his route, but he was just making

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Speaker 3: it up as he was going along. And I think

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Speaker 3: because he's shone so brightly, he was ultimately consumed by

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Speaker 3: his own his own fame, his own image, his own elvisness.

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Speaker 3: There's never been anyone touch what he did and who

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Speaker 3: he was and what he meant to people. And I

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Speaker 3: think for my generation, as I say, if you're going

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Speaker 3: to take on that rock and roll mantle, you can't

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Speaker 3: ignore him.

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Speaker 2: You know, Paul Simon said when we were talking to him,

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Speaker 2: his favorite record, and he's obsessed with the production of

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Speaker 2: records is a mystery train. Yeah, And he said every

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Speaker 2: song he's ever done he tries to get a little

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Speaker 2: of that mystery.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree with him. That's for me, that's the

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Speaker 3: key moment when the synthesis of country music and blues,

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Speaker 3: of African American roots music and European American roots music

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Speaker 3: comes together. Is in Mystery Train. They captured lightning in

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Speaker 3: a bottle there. I mean, obviously that's all right, it

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Speaker 3: is incredible, But there's something about Mystery Train. It just

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Speaker 3: kind of appears over the hill coming out of nowhere.

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Speaker 3: It's like it doesn't it even seem to have a start,

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Speaker 3: and it trails off at the end and it's gone.

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Speaker 3: It's really gone, gone, gone, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I have that incredible slap that's from the studio.

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Speaker 2: There's no drummer, no.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's the really interesting thing about the Sun Sessions.

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Speaker 3: They're so similar to Skiffle in that they have no drums,

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Speaker 3: no augmentation, no pianos or brass or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's all just guitar driven slap bass and velocity.

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Speaker 3: It's about speed, you know, he speeds, he speeds up

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Speaker 3: those old blue songs, those old country songs like Blue

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Speaker 3: moona Kentucky. He just you know, revs them up and

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Speaker 3: off they go, which is exactly what Lonnie Doneghan was

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Speaker 3: doing with lead Belly staff in the UK. Weirdly, almost

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Speaker 3: at the same time. I mean, that's all right, mama. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: his first recording came the fifth of July in nineteen

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Speaker 3: fifty four. Lonnie Donegan recorded rock Online a week later

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Speaker 3: on the thirteenth of July in London. I mean, how

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Speaker 3: that was just out in the air somewhere something so

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Speaker 3: in sinjury could happen at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Here's the difference.

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Speaker 3: To me.

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Speaker 2: This is something I've thought a lot about, which is

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Speaker 2: when you listen to Lonnie Donegan, you listen to a

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Speaker 2: lot of performers, you love what they do, but then

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Speaker 2: you want to go here, the original Elvis, you don't

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Speaker 2: do that. I think maybe he shone so brightly that

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Speaker 2: when you go you know, for example, when I went

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Speaker 2: to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you've ever been there, but he is presented

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Speaker 2: as the first rock and roll star, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of the people who were called rock and roll stars

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Speaker 2: before him like Big Joe Turner and Ruth Brown are

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Speaker 2: just considered these sort of the pioneers they like to

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Speaker 2: call them. And by the way, Elvis, the Elvis Enterprises

254
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Speaker 2: owns that part of the rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Ye,

255
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Speaker 2: so I'm sure it's presented the way they want. Nobody,

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Speaker 2: but I thought, well, and you know, you have this

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Speaker 2: little thing like who do you think should be in

258
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Speaker 2: the rock and Roll Hall of Fame? I thought, well,

259
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Speaker 2: Arthur Croud up because he did the original version. And

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Speaker 2: if you hear the original version, it's got a lot

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Speaker 2: of the the elements. It's not that totally transformed. And

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Speaker 2: you're like, nobody knows him. No, nobody knows Mabel. I've

263
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Speaker 2: forgotten her name, my accent, pardon me my action. No,

264
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Speaker 2: the did the original hound Dog.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'll can't take one name on them.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, written by two Jewish guys from Long Island.

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Speaker 2: But there you great, But there's something about you know

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Speaker 2: even uh and Malcolm and I did an episode about

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Speaker 2: this once. You know, Little Richard actually was grateful to

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Speaker 2: Pat Boone because people listened to Pat Boone and then

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Speaker 2: wanted to hear Little Richard and uh, you know, Fats

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Speaker 2: Domino felt the same way with Elvis, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think it was deliberate on his part, no, but.

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Speaker 3: Well he's a complete package. Oh anyway, it was sixty

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Speaker 3: something about.

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Speaker 2: It that he, uh, you know, all evolution before him

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Speaker 2: kind of gets discarded somehow, and he's like.

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Speaker 3: Well nothing, we know, nothing comes from nothing comes from nothing,

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Speaker 3: does it? It happened these things, you know. That's one

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Speaker 3: of the things that led me to write the book

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Speaker 3: about Skiffle were roots, radicals and rockers. I was fed

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Speaker 3: up with the idea that Lonnie Donegan recording rock on

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Speaker 3: online was a singularity that just happened. It didn't just happen.

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Speaker 3: It was a load of forces coming together around that

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Speaker 3: time in the UK culturally among young people, and I

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Speaker 3: was looking for a book that explained how happened, and

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Speaker 3: no one had written it, so I ended up writing

288
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Speaker 3: it myself, and it was that urge to find it out.

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Speaker 3: I think that really really helped. I'm really proud that

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Speaker 3: in the book Rock Island Line doesn't come out until

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Speaker 3: chapter thirteen.

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Speaker 2: But your book also, it's another chapter in this English

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Speaker 2: fascination with American music.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And you know, as many books as I read about

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Speaker 2: music or you know, there's that apocryphal story that when

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Speaker 2: Paul McCartney first came to the US, he asked an interviewer, well,

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Speaker 2: where's Ray Charles. The guy said, I don't know where

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Speaker 2: Ray Charles is because he just assumed in the United

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Speaker 2: States Ray Charles was as important as they were in English.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean as straight as when I first came

302
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Speaker 3: to New York in nineteen eighty four, friend took some

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Speaker 3: I said, take me to a great record shop. It

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Speaker 3: took me to a great record shop. Was full of

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Speaker 3: depeche Mode impulse. I'm like, mate, this is not a

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Speaker 3: great record you know. I mean, the average mom and

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Speaker 3: pop store in America back then was a great record shop.

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Speaker 3: We had a gospel section. We never have anything like

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Speaker 3: that at a Latin section, you know, at a country section,

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Speaker 3: with real proper obscure stuff that you never find a home. So, well,

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Speaker 3: what is.

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Speaker 2: That in the English it's and it's it's famous stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's obscure stuff. You know. The Beatles did an Arthur

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Speaker 2: Alexander song who you couldn't find anybody in the streets

315
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Speaker 2: of New York who remembers Arthur Alexander. But they do

316
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Speaker 2: a tribute album, and people in England, you know, Nick Low,

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Speaker 2: Graham Parker are lining up to do Arthur Alexander. It's

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Speaker 2: like a cargo cult or something like.

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Speaker 3: It's well, it's really I think appreciation of the great

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Speaker 3: performances oars Alexander was a great performer. You know, I'm

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Speaker 3: scratching me out now for the name of the guy

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Speaker 3: who originally recorded at the Dark End of the Streets

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Speaker 3: something Carr. I can't but the people who around the

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Speaker 3: time said he was the greatest soul singer of all

325
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Speaker 3: time and his performances are great, but he just didn't

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Speaker 3: get the get the profile.

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Speaker 2: That's what fascinated me, both the skiff and they were

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Speaker 2: you know, I hadn't realized, you know, in my mind

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Speaker 2: skiffle was kind of like a like almost a kid's

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Speaker 2: version of sort of pop songs country mainly. Instead, they're

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Speaker 2: really diving into.

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Speaker 3: They really are diving into African American roots music, to

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Speaker 3: the extent that one old guy who was a skiffler

334
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Speaker 3: in fifties told me that the average skiffle player felt

335
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Speaker 3: they have more in common with an African American sharecropper

336
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Speaker 3: that they've never met anything than they did with their

337
00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:21,436
Speaker 3: own dad, you know, because their parents had lived through

338
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Speaker 3: the war, and the Skiffle Kids were the first bunch

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Speaker 3: of youngsters to define themselves. It's different. And the way

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Speaker 3: they did that was by playing the guitar. Just there

341
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Speaker 3: weren't many guitars in British popular music prior to the

342
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Speaker 3: mid nineteen fifties, and it's Donnegan and then Elvis that

343
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Speaker 3: kind of brings that in, you know, but it is

344
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Speaker 3: school kids, I mean is it's like a playground craze.

345
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Speaker 3: You know. When Lonnie Donegan plays in Liverpool in nineteen

346
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Speaker 3: fifty six, George Harrison goes every night. I think he's thirteen.

347
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Speaker 3: McCartney's fourteen, he goes one night, and Lennon who's sixteen,

348
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Speaker 3: don't know if he went, but in the weeks that

349
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Speaker 3: followed he formed the Quarrymen. So we are talking about

350
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Speaker 3: school boys. And the reason why that's significant is because

351
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Speaker 3: by the time they were twenty one, twenty two and

352
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Speaker 3: twenty three, those Skiffle Kids have been playing live music,

353
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Speaker 3: mostly chuck Berry rock and roll type music for five

354
00:18:19,396 --> 00:18:22,036
Speaker 3: or six years. They were kind of road hardened. So

355
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Speaker 3: when the Beatles break America in nineteen sixty four, there's

356
00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:28,156
Speaker 3: a whole cadre of British bands ready to follow them,

357
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Speaker 3: you know, and every single one of those British Invasion

358
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Speaker 3: bands were all skifflers, and I think that didn't happen

359
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Speaker 3: to white American use until the folk boom, which is

360
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Speaker 3: later fifty nine sixty, you know, until you get to

361
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Speaker 3: Kingston Trio and acts like that.

362
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Speaker 2: Weavers.

363
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, no, I think the Weaver was I think

364
00:18:46,156 --> 00:18:47,636
Speaker 3: the Weaver's really I think they were gone. I mean,

365
00:18:47,756 --> 00:18:51,596
Speaker 3: the idea of young people playing guitars comes with the

366
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Speaker 3: folk boom, and that doesn't really get going until the

367
00:18:54,956 --> 00:18:57,516
Speaker 3: late fifties, whereas these British kids are already, you know,

368
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Speaker 3: by the time someone like you know, Paul Simon is

369
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Speaker 3: learning to play the guitar, the Beatles already in Amberg,

370
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Speaker 3: so that they're although they're the same generation, our kids

371
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Speaker 3: are that bit ahead, and that's what makes the British

372
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Speaker 3: invasion possible. So skiff al was the nursery of the

373
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Speaker 3: British invasion.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting how again, things that we think seem spontaneous

375
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Speaker 2: have these strange origins.

376
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Speaker 3: You know.

377
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Speaker 2: One of the great things about Motown was that a

378
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Speaker 2: lot of those kids went to pre integration schools where

379
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Speaker 2: they had great music classes. Like a lot of them

380
00:19:37,596 --> 00:19:41,236
Speaker 2: went to Northern in Detroit, but they had music teachers

381
00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:45,076
Speaker 2: who were teaching them counterpoint and teaching them, you know, notation,

382
00:19:45,396 --> 00:19:48,916
Speaker 2: and teaching them classical music. So Barrett Strong, a lot

383
00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:51,116
Speaker 2: of those guys, Norman Whitfield, when they showed up, they

384
00:19:51,156 --> 00:19:55,596
Speaker 2: were they knew music, very small range, and so we

385
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Speaker 2: tend to think of, you know, music as some sort

386
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Speaker 2: of primordial scream.

387
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Speaker 3: It's like, no more than that.

388
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be right back with more from Billy Bragg

389
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Speaker 1: after the break. We're back with more from Billy Bragg.

390
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Speaker 2: Speaking of guitars, I thought I read that you started

391
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Speaker 2: writing songs before you played an instrument.

392
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Speaker 3: It's true I did. Yeah, Yeah, what.

393
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Speaker 2: Were you writing too? Were you writing to a tune

394
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Speaker 2: in your head?

395
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Speaker 3: In my head? Yeah? Tunes in my head. Yeah. I've

396
00:20:25,196 --> 00:20:28,396
Speaker 3: got notebooks full of songs where I still could look

397
00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:29,916
Speaker 3: at the lyric and remember what the tune was.

398
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Speaker 2: Really.

399
00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:34,556
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. When I was twelve, I wrote a

400
00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:40,916
Speaker 3: poem at school and the teacher wrote to my parents

401
00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:43,596
Speaker 3: to ask if I copied it from a book. And

402
00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:45,436
Speaker 3: when I found out, I hadn't, and they kind of

403
00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:48,276
Speaker 3: got me to read it out on the radio London,

404
00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:50,796
Speaker 3: the local radio station, and I took that as a

405
00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:53,036
Speaker 3: kind of recognition that I could do this, I could

406
00:20:53,036 --> 00:20:56,116
Speaker 3: be a songwriter. I thought, this is you know, this

407
00:20:56,236 --> 00:20:57,876
Speaker 3: is really good and I don't know anyone else's ever

408
00:20:57,876 --> 00:21:00,356
Speaker 3: done this. So I started, you know, just writing sort

409
00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:03,036
Speaker 3: of songs that were broadly imitative of the music that

410
00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:07,836
Speaker 3: I was into, which was American singer songwriters and Tamla motown.

411
00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:09,556
Speaker 3: You know, they're the two things that I listened to

412
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Speaker 3: most at that age.

413
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Speaker 2: Do you remember what was the first song that do

414
00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:17,036
Speaker 2: you remember just moved you musically?

415
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Speaker 3: Do you remember as the Box of by Simon and Garfunkel? Really, yeah, yeah.

416
00:21:20,756 --> 00:21:25,436
Speaker 3: I heard it on a school trip in a must

417
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Speaker 3: have been eleven years old, so that would be sixty nine.

418
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Speaker 3: We're on a school trip somewhere, and it was one

419
00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:33,996
Speaker 3: of those moments where I was it just I don't know, somehow,

420
00:21:33,996 --> 00:21:36,956
Speaker 3: it just it was on the radio on the bus

421
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Speaker 3: on the trip and it just it was a I

422
00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:43,436
Speaker 3: don't say it's slightly but it was a transcendental moment

423
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Speaker 3: for an eleven year old. It took me out of

424
00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:52,476
Speaker 3: my little world into a completely different world and something

425
00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:56,556
Speaker 3: magical in it, the storytelling, the sound of it, and

426
00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:01,636
Speaker 3: I kind of started, really, I must have been really

427
00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:04,836
Speaker 3: into music. My parents that following Christmas brought me a

428
00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:08,036
Speaker 3: real to real tape recorder so I could record songs

429
00:22:08,076 --> 00:22:10,676
Speaker 3: on the radio. Have to buy me records basically, which

430
00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:14,156
Speaker 3: is smart. And if I lug this around the corner

431
00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:18,156
Speaker 3: to my mate's house, his sister Leslie, who was probably

432
00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:20,996
Speaker 3: fifteen at the time, older than us, but she had

433
00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:23,036
Speaker 3: a brilliant record collection. She had quite a few Simon

434
00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:28,116
Speaker 3: and Garfuncle records and several Motown chartbuster compilations. And I'm

435
00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:31,796
Speaker 3: more or less taped Leslie Charmer's record collection, and that

436
00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:36,356
Speaker 3: served me my apprentices that I then started trying to

437
00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:39,316
Speaker 3: write songs like Paul Simon and Smokey Robinson and still

438
00:22:39,356 --> 00:22:40,076
Speaker 3: do some days.

439
00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:44,476
Speaker 2: Older siblings with good taste are a crucial part of

440
00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:45,116
Speaker 2: the music.

441
00:22:44,956 --> 00:22:46,996
Speaker 3: Except I never had one. I never had an older

442
00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:49,156
Speaker 3: sibling of good or bad taste, so I was kind

443
00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:53,356
Speaker 3: of blind until my friend's older sisters because basically, when

444
00:22:53,356 --> 00:22:55,156
Speaker 3: I worked my way through and I've got older Simon

445
00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:58,996
Speaker 3: and Guardfunkal albums because Simon and Garfuncle were very popular

446
00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:03,796
Speaker 3: among Wins young adolescent schoolgirls at the time, you know,

447
00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:05,716
Speaker 3: Sound of Silence and all that kind of stuff, you know,

448
00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:10,716
Speaker 3: and the chart buster albums were massive as well at

449
00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:13,836
Speaker 3: the time, So that kind of brought me into the

450
00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:16,796
Speaker 3: whole notion of the craft of songwriting. You know, I

451
00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:18,916
Speaker 3: will take songs apart me and think about tracks of

452
00:23:18,956 --> 00:23:22,276
Speaker 3: my tears as three chords. It's possibly the greatest three

453
00:23:22,316 --> 00:23:23,476
Speaker 3: card trick of all time. You know.

454
00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:26,476
Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned the sound of the Boxer because

455
00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:30,956
Speaker 2: when we did the project with him, you know, you wonder,

456
00:23:31,036 --> 00:23:32,876
Speaker 2: what is it the words that move you? Is it

457
00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:35,036
Speaker 2: the music? For him, it's all the sound and he

458
00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:40,716
Speaker 2: obsesses over production. And even now if you listen, if

459
00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:43,516
Speaker 2: you've listened to that poor record, it's a stunning sounding,

460
00:23:43,556 --> 00:23:43,996
Speaker 2: right it is.

461
00:23:44,476 --> 00:23:47,836
Speaker 3: It's an incredible album to be obsessed with, which I

462
00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:50,476
Speaker 3: was for a long time. I was obsessed with that record.

463
00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:53,956
Speaker 3: It kind of I mean the thing about I eventually

464
00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:57,156
Speaker 3: ended up becoming obsessed with Bob Dylan subsequently, kind of

465
00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,716
Speaker 3: Paul Simon led me into Bob Dylan and English folk

466
00:23:59,796 --> 00:24:02,556
Speaker 3: music as well via a Scarborough fair in a rather

467
00:24:02,716 --> 00:24:09,076
Speaker 3: ironic way because Martin Carthy, who Paul Simon was inspired

468
00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:12,196
Speaker 3: by hearing Martin place garboroughfare to record his own version,

469
00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:15,516
Speaker 3: was playing in a folk club not a mile from

470
00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:18,796
Speaker 3: my house around that time. But it took these two

471
00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:22,116
Speaker 3: guys from Brooklyn recording this old English folk song to

472
00:24:22,156 --> 00:24:23,916
Speaker 3: turn me onto my own folk music, which is a

473
00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:27,876
Speaker 3: weird paradoxical way. What goes around comes around with saying

474
00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:28,476
Speaker 3: folk music.

475
00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:33,716
Speaker 2: So your musical inspirations were Paul Simon, Paul Simon, Smokey Robinson,

476
00:24:33,956 --> 00:24:39,556
Speaker 2: Smokey Robinson, Eddie Cochran and your what were your lyrical inspirations?

477
00:24:39,556 --> 00:24:41,516
Speaker 3: Well, again, you know, I was trying to write knock

478
00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:45,236
Speaker 3: off sing, a songwriter song, so a bit of a

479
00:24:45,276 --> 00:24:46,636
Speaker 3: bit of Paul Simon to start with a bit of

480
00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:48,356
Speaker 3: Bob doing, a bit of Jackson Brown. I was big

481
00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:50,716
Speaker 3: on Jackson Brown. I still think it's a great songwriter.

482
00:24:51,556 --> 00:24:54,276
Speaker 3: And you know, I think you when you're learning your craft,

483
00:24:54,796 --> 00:25:00,196
Speaker 3: you're always writing songs that in some ways have their

484
00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:02,916
Speaker 3: framework from music you like. I always say to people

485
00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:05,036
Speaker 3: they want to start writing songs, take your favorite song,

486
00:25:05,436 --> 00:25:07,276
Speaker 3: take the words out of it and write your own

487
00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:09,796
Speaker 3: words because it's your favorite song. You'll know exactly how

488
00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:12,916
Speaker 3: the words are supposed to fit. And then you that's

489
00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:15,356
Speaker 3: how you know, make your own words, make you know,

490
00:25:15,396 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 3: maybe keep the chorus and change the words to I

491
00:25:18,516 --> 00:25:20,516
Speaker 3: will Always love you, to give it a happy ending

492
00:25:20,636 --> 00:25:22,276
Speaker 3: or something, whatever you want to do, that's how you

493
00:25:22,316 --> 00:25:25,116
Speaker 3: start to do it. That's what I did, basically. You know,

494
00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:27,916
Speaker 3: you just take a Chuck Berry song apart, and that's

495
00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:32,196
Speaker 3: my simplest thing, and then put your own words on it.

496
00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:36,716
Speaker 3: And then eventually, when I was about twenty I suppose

497
00:25:37,116 --> 00:25:39,316
Speaker 3: maybe twenty one, I wrote a Billy Bragg song. I

498
00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:40,636
Speaker 3: wrote a song that didn't.

499
00:25:40,396 --> 00:25:43,836
Speaker 2: Have the first Billy Bragg song, Richard.

500
00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:46,916
Speaker 3: Which ended up on the first album because I was

501
00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:49,876
Speaker 3: very proud of it because it didn't sound like anybody else.

502
00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:52,636
Speaker 3: I thought, this is actually me in this song. And

503
00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:55,276
Speaker 3: once I'd worked out how to do that. This is

504
00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:58,116
Speaker 3: towards the end of the period when I was in

505
00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 3: a little band called riff Raff, which is kind of

506
00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:02,796
Speaker 3: like a punky new wavy band in the seventies or

507
00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:06,836
Speaker 3: late seventies, and I started writing songs that were more

508
00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:08,876
Speaker 3: had more me and him. I worked out to get

509
00:26:08,916 --> 00:26:11,916
Speaker 3: me into the songs. Also read somewhere that you were

510
00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:14,396
Speaker 3: bullied as a kid that kind of yeah, I was

511
00:26:14,436 --> 00:26:17,476
Speaker 3: sort of. You know, it got a bit towards the

512
00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:19,396
Speaker 3: end of our school years. It all got a bit

513
00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:22,996
Speaker 3: larry at school, so I tended to not go in

514
00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:26,636
Speaker 3: so much. You know, it's too much mm hmm, too

515
00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:30,396
Speaker 3: much grief. It just made me. Gave me a lot

516
00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:33,796
Speaker 3: of anxiety around town. So you know, the sort of

517
00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:35,876
Speaker 3: things that other people, other kids my age did not

518
00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:38,556
Speaker 3: go out to the pubs and go out dancing and stuff.

519
00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:41,836
Speaker 3: I just didn't, you know, I just gave me, just

520
00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:44,196
Speaker 3: give me too much anxiety. So I was fortunate. I

521
00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:45,996
Speaker 3: had a couple of mates who had a guitar and

522
00:26:46,036 --> 00:26:48,596
Speaker 3: a drum kit, and we sat in my mum's back

523
00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:51,316
Speaker 3: room and wrote songs and played music. It's saved my

524
00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:51,756
Speaker 3: own life.

525
00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:54,596
Speaker 2: Is that when you started guitar? Did that give you

526
00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:55,476
Speaker 2: some confidence a lot?

527
00:26:55,556 --> 00:26:58,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot, huge amount self expression? Bruce. You know

528
00:26:58,996 --> 00:27:01,636
Speaker 3: you got your writing it, putting it all out there,

529
00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:04,876
Speaker 3: you know, you this is how I feel. Music is

530
00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:06,916
Speaker 3: a form of therapy, whether you're listening to it or

531
00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:09,596
Speaker 3: writing it or making it or playing it, a repeutic

532
00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:16,036
Speaker 3: effect because you're you're putting yourself into it. And I

533
00:27:16,076 --> 00:27:17,716
Speaker 3: say this not just as a musician, but that can

534
00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:22,316
Speaker 3: also be as a listener, because I think the currency

535
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:26,556
Speaker 3: of music is fundamentally empathy. You're as a writer, you're

536
00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:30,756
Speaker 3: asking the listener to listen to this person in this

537
00:27:30,836 --> 00:27:33,556
Speaker 3: situation and feel something for them in a situation you

538
00:27:33,636 --> 00:27:36,716
Speaker 3: might not have experienced as a person. But this person here,

539
00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:39,796
Speaker 3: you know, listen to that. Or there's another way whereby

540
00:27:40,796 --> 00:27:42,876
Speaker 3: the person who's written the song has somehow touched a

541
00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:47,516
Speaker 3: nerve with you, and in that case you draw empathy

542
00:27:47,596 --> 00:27:50,276
Speaker 3: from the song. You're getting some of yourself, you're feeling

543
00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:55,276
Speaker 3: and you're not alone. This song, you know, is somehow

544
00:27:55,356 --> 00:27:57,676
Speaker 3: articulating something you can't put into words. We all have

545
00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:00,316
Speaker 3: songs like that, you know, and that, and that's really

546
00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:05,716
Speaker 3: really valuable because I think, you know, the the sense

547
00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:09,396
Speaker 3: of isolation that we have in society, which is always

548
00:28:09,396 --> 00:28:12,196
Speaker 3: been that's not just a manifestation of the digital wage.

549
00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:17,116
Speaker 3: I've always been there. And when people come together to

550
00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:21,276
Speaker 3: celebrate and to sing, whether it's in church, at soccer games,

551
00:28:21,316 --> 00:28:25,796
Speaker 3: it happens people sing, you know. Obviously music concerts, you

552
00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:28,276
Speaker 3: get a moment where you feel you're not alone. You're

553
00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:30,196
Speaker 3: not the only person who cares about this thing, whatever

554
00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:30,956
Speaker 3: this thing is.

555
00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:33,756
Speaker 2: Did you need the feedback of an audience to feel

556
00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:35,516
Speaker 2: that way about your own songs? Or did you feel

557
00:28:35,516 --> 00:28:37,716
Speaker 2: that way in the back room of the house.

558
00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:39,236
Speaker 3: I felt that way in the background of the house.

559
00:28:39,356 --> 00:28:43,236
Speaker 2: Really. Yeah, did you feel the anxiety about being around

560
00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:45,076
Speaker 2: other people and get you could put your feelings out

561
00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:45,556
Speaker 2: in a song?

562
00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:49,236
Speaker 3: Yeah? I could not not. I don't think so. I mean,

563
00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:51,516
Speaker 3: you know that's the trick of it, isn't it. You

564
00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:55,916
Speaker 3: learn you learn to put into song the things that

565
00:28:55,956 --> 00:28:59,516
Speaker 3: you find yourself struggling with, you know, the reflection of

566
00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:02,036
Speaker 3: who you are, and you think the song's about somebody else,

567
00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:04,236
Speaker 3: but actually it sends out to be about you actually

568
00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:08,596
Speaker 3: when you admit about it and that. You know, when

569
00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:11,036
Speaker 3: we started doing gigs, when when punk happened and it

570
00:29:11,076 --> 00:29:13,116
Speaker 3: became possible for you just to turn up and play,

571
00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:17,916
Speaker 3: it became much easier. You didn't have to justify being

572
00:29:17,956 --> 00:29:20,396
Speaker 3: in the band. Everyone was in a band. Uh. Then

573
00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:22,076
Speaker 3: there was a there was a confidence in that as well,

574
00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:25,236
Speaker 3: because it was like our generation were coming to the fore.

575
00:29:25,316 --> 00:29:26,356
Speaker 3: Now this is who we are.

576
00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:27,396
Speaker 2: You know.

577
00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:33,316
Speaker 3: My political uh awakening was going to rock against racism.

578
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:35,356
Speaker 3: That's the first political thing I ever did, and that

579
00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:38,636
Speaker 3: that was an incredible experience because it gave me the

580
00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:39,796
Speaker 3: courage of my convictions.

581
00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 2: You know, that's interesting to me. I had always assumed

582
00:29:42,276 --> 00:29:46,916
Speaker 2: that that your politics informed you becoming a singer and

583
00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:49,396
Speaker 2: a songwriter, that you're what we would call here a

584
00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:50,436
Speaker 2: red daper baby.

585
00:29:50,716 --> 00:29:52,596
Speaker 3: No no, no, no, no, no no no. The town

586
00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:55,636
Speaker 3: I grew up in, East London has always been labor

587
00:29:55,636 --> 00:29:58,236
Speaker 3: since my father was a kid, so there was no

588
00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:01,596
Speaker 3: real politics around. It was just labor. That was what

589
00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:04,796
Speaker 3: it was, and everyone was labor. My parents weren't particularly political.

590
00:30:05,596 --> 00:30:11,396
Speaker 3: I got my sense of of policy by osmosis from

591
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:17,916
Speaker 3: listening to predominantly American soul music from the Civil rights period.

592
00:30:18,596 --> 00:30:21,316
Speaker 3: You know, if you get them Motown chartbuses albums, they're

593
00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:24,076
Speaker 3: great pop albums, and they're you know, they're amazing. And

594
00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:27,396
Speaker 3: then you get to volume five, I think, and all

595
00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:30,596
Speaker 3: of a sudden things start. Something's changed. You get you know,

596
00:30:30,716 --> 00:30:34,116
Speaker 3: Ball of Confusion by the Temptations, You've got War by

597
00:30:34,236 --> 00:30:38,436
Speaker 3: Edwin Starr, you know, and there's a change of tone.

598
00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:41,876
Speaker 3: Something's happened, and the clue is in the record Marvin

599
00:30:41,916 --> 00:30:44,076
Speaker 3: Gaye sings Abraham Martin and John and what has happened

600
00:30:44,156 --> 00:30:47,836
Speaker 3: is Dr King has been murdered and along with the

601
00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:52,756
Speaker 3: rest of African American and culture motowns reflecting that. So

602
00:30:52,796 --> 00:30:57,196
Speaker 3: I kind of picked up on on that politics, the

603
00:30:57,276 --> 00:31:01,236
Speaker 3: politics of civil rights and as also doing a singer

604
00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:02,676
Speaker 3: songwriters that I listened to as well. You know, the

605
00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,036
Speaker 3: early Dylan records. You know, my huge record for me

606
00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:08,076
Speaker 3: was The Times They Were Changing That album. I swapped

607
00:31:08,116 --> 00:31:10,756
Speaker 3: it with mate of mine at school for his dad's

608
00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:15,076
Speaker 3: copy of No I got it. I got his dad's

609
00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:17,236
Speaker 3: copy of The Times They Were Changing in exchange from

610
00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:20,156
Speaker 3: my copy of the Jackson Five's greatst Hits. It was

611
00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 3: a brilliant deal and.

612
00:31:23,436 --> 00:31:25,796
Speaker 2: I think you both want on that one, but he thought.

613
00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:26,636
Speaker 3: He wanted to give it to his sister as a

614
00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:28,956
Speaker 3: birthday present, so anyway we did it. It was it was,

615
00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:31,476
Speaker 3: It just blew my mind. It was so raw, it

616
00:31:31,516 --> 00:31:34,316
Speaker 3: was so visceral, all that album, The Times They Were Changing,

617
00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 3: and that Bob Dylan, not the later Blonde on Blonde

618
00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:40,196
Speaker 3: type I was sixty one, but that early you know,

619
00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:43,516
Speaker 3: blowing in the Wind Bob Dylan was really inspiration to me.

620
00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:46,156
Speaker 3: As while I'm talking about when I'm like fourteen fifteen now,

621
00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:49,836
Speaker 3: So I got my politics from that, but you know,

622
00:31:49,876 --> 00:31:53,956
Speaker 3: my politics were broadly I suppose humanitarian. But where I

623
00:31:53,996 --> 00:31:55,676
Speaker 3: was you know, when I went to Rock Against Racism,

624
00:31:55,756 --> 00:31:58,996
Speaker 3: I was working in an office in London and the

625
00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:02,756
Speaker 3: men I worked with were you know, casually racist, casually sexist,

626
00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:05,876
Speaker 3: casually homophobic, and I really you know, didn't ever say

627
00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:10,156
Speaker 3: anything or raise any questions. But going to Rock against Racism,

628
00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:13,596
Speaker 3: see the clash we're playing, and that's kind of what

629
00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:17,476
Speaker 3: got us to go over the step. But going there

630
00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:20,556
Speaker 3: and getting to the theres a park in Hackney called

631
00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:24,276
Speaker 3: Victoria Park where it happened, and seeing eighty thousand kids

632
00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:29,396
Speaker 3: just like me, I kind of realized that this issue

633
00:32:29,436 --> 00:32:31,916
Speaker 3: is going to be what defines my generation, like Vietnam

634
00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:34,556
Speaker 3: had defined the previous generation. We were going to define

635
00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:38,556
Speaker 3: ourselves in opposition of an opposition to discrimination of all kinds,

636
00:32:38,916 --> 00:32:42,916
Speaker 3: not just racism, but homophobia and sexism and everything else.

637
00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:45,236
Speaker 3: We were going to be the generation of two Tone.

638
00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:48,076
Speaker 3: We were going to be the generation of artists against

639
00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 3: aparthe That's who we were going to be. And when

640
00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:54,476
Speaker 3: I went back to work on Monday. The world hadn't changed,

641
00:32:54,716 --> 00:32:58,036
Speaker 3: but my perception of it had and I knew why

642
00:32:58,036 --> 00:33:01,156
Speaker 3: I was different from these arshols at work, you know,

643
00:33:01,476 --> 00:33:03,676
Speaker 3: And so I'd stopped laughing when they made those comments,

644
00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:06,556
Speaker 3: you know, I stopped joining him with you, pastor and

645
00:33:06,596 --> 00:33:10,676
Speaker 3: the secretaries and stuff like that. I like, Okay, there's

646
00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:14,236
Speaker 3: something different now, you know. And that and that informs

647
00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:18,276
Speaker 3: how I understand how music works when I'm doing a gig.

648
00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:21,236
Speaker 2: Now that's interesting to me because you, of course, are

649
00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:25,396
Speaker 2: always called the political songwriter, although the vast majority of

650
00:33:25,476 --> 00:33:29,356
Speaker 2: your songs are about love and human relationships and other things.

651
00:33:30,276 --> 00:33:34,436
Speaker 2: Does a song have to be explicitly political to be political?

652
00:33:34,716 --> 00:33:38,276
Speaker 3: No, it really really doesn't. I have a song called

653
00:33:38,996 --> 00:33:42,596
Speaker 3: I Keep Faith, and I can introduce that as a

654
00:33:42,636 --> 00:33:46,916
Speaker 3: love song. Ostensibly it works as a love song, but

655
00:33:46,956 --> 00:33:49,316
Speaker 3: I can also introduce it by talking about my faith

656
00:33:49,356 --> 00:33:52,156
Speaker 3: in the audience's ability to change the world. And if

657
00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:54,916
Speaker 3: I do that, men cry. They come up to me

658
00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:57,316
Speaker 3: at the end and say, I really moved, you know,

659
00:33:57,316 --> 00:33:58,836
Speaker 3: it was really moved for that, And I'm not good mate,

660
00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:00,556
Speaker 3: you know, I was talking about empathy back then. That's

661
00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:04,436
Speaker 3: that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for that empathy,

662
00:34:04,516 --> 00:34:07,796
Speaker 3: you know, mate, Malcolm was listening to him on the

663
00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:12,796
Speaker 3: radio one time and he talked about the ability to

664
00:34:12,836 --> 00:34:17,916
Speaker 3: make people move people to tears without hurting them. You know,

665
00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:23,196
Speaker 3: the ability to move people by emotion to tears is

666
00:34:23,196 --> 00:34:27,876
Speaker 3: a very powerful thing. And then he played levs Stubs tears.

667
00:34:29,236 --> 00:34:31,636
Speaker 3: That made my ears pick up, I'll tell you. And

668
00:34:32,036 --> 00:34:36,796
Speaker 3: it's very insightful, Malcolm, the touch on that, because it

669
00:34:36,876 --> 00:34:40,476
Speaker 3: gave me a you know, a sudden flash of how

670
00:34:40,476 --> 00:34:41,476
Speaker 3: the process works.

671
00:34:41,916 --> 00:34:43,436
Speaker 2: I would say a couple of things. First of all,

672
00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:47,436
Speaker 2: I always felt that song was quite ironic, not that

673
00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:52,636
Speaker 2: you don't like Levi Stubbs, but that the comparison of

674
00:34:52,636 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 2: her life with with a sort of motown fantasy was

675
00:34:57,836 --> 00:34:58,436
Speaker 2: quite bleak.

676
00:34:58,636 --> 00:35:01,076
Speaker 3: Well. Yeah, the thing is, the song is about the

677
00:35:01,116 --> 00:35:04,476
Speaker 3: redemptive power of soul music. You know that the pain

678
00:35:04,516 --> 00:35:09,316
Speaker 3: that Levi Stubbs has, the pain that he expressed, is

679
00:35:09,316 --> 00:35:13,556
Speaker 3: the tear in his voice, the sob in his voice.

680
00:35:14,436 --> 00:35:18,036
Speaker 3: She draws from that a sense that someone understands where

681
00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:23,156
Speaker 3: she's coming from. She draws some empathy from from his pain.

682
00:35:23,236 --> 00:35:26,076
Speaker 3: His pain somehow is her pain. She's got to pick

683
00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:28,836
Speaker 3: herself up and put herself back togethering in now and

684
00:35:28,956 --> 00:35:31,756
Speaker 3: Levi's obviously felt that as well, because you can hear

685
00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:33,196
Speaker 3: it in the way that he sings, you know, when

686
00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:37,116
Speaker 3: he cries out for Bernadette, you know, when he talks

687
00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:40,996
Speaker 3: about the seven Rooms of Gloom. You know it's there,

688
00:35:41,116 --> 00:35:45,996
Speaker 3: you know, very operatic. Yeah, just incredible voice. Incredible voice.

689
00:35:46,316 --> 00:35:48,396
Speaker 2: Are you the person who's jotting things down when a

690
00:35:48,476 --> 00:35:52,636
Speaker 2: line occurs to you? Is it something you're very conscious

691
00:35:52,636 --> 00:35:54,036
Speaker 2: of injecting into your records?

692
00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:57,156
Speaker 3: I think if you're going to do politics, you have

693
00:35:57,196 --> 00:36:00,476
Speaker 3: to leave it up a little with some rye Humer.

694
00:36:00,556 --> 00:36:04,716
Speaker 3: You know, you can't just go storming in there, putting

695
00:36:04,756 --> 00:36:06,676
Speaker 3: people in the chest all the way through a gig.

696
00:36:06,716 --> 00:36:07,916
Speaker 3: And I do a little bit of that, you know

697
00:36:08,036 --> 00:36:10,996
Speaker 3: sometimes talking about the election on this tour, I'll be

698
00:36:10,996 --> 00:36:13,916
Speaker 3: doing a little bit of fingerpointing maybe of the British

699
00:36:13,956 --> 00:36:16,676
Speaker 3: election the American election in November. Oh okay, yeah, yeah,

700
00:36:16,716 --> 00:36:20,076
Speaker 3: the British election I will talk about. But obviously, you

701
00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:23,476
Speaker 3: know what's coming in November is very contentious at the moment,

702
00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:24,876
Speaker 3: so I doubt let's be talking about that.

703
00:36:25,076 --> 00:36:26,956
Speaker 2: I haven't been reading about it, so I have no

704
00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:29,436
Speaker 2: idea what you're talking about.

705
00:36:30,316 --> 00:36:34,716
Speaker 3: But the I found that when I was you know,

706
00:36:35,076 --> 00:36:40,916
Speaker 3: my political crucible was the UK minor strike in nineteen

707
00:36:40,956 --> 00:36:44,116
Speaker 3: eighty four and you played there, Yeah, loads of times. Yeah, yeah,

708
00:36:44,476 --> 00:36:47,076
Speaker 3: I would play What was that like? I was mad?

709
00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:48,556
Speaker 3: It was absolutely mad?

710
00:36:48,836 --> 00:36:50,636
Speaker 2: Well did did they know you were coming? You would

711
00:36:50,676 --> 00:36:51,196
Speaker 2: just show up?

712
00:36:51,236 --> 00:36:53,276
Speaker 3: And well I used I used to go up to

713
00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:55,396
Speaker 3: the coal fields because I was solo, so I could

714
00:36:55,596 --> 00:36:57,756
Speaker 3: literally wed go around with a small amp, a little

715
00:36:57,756 --> 00:36:59,076
Speaker 3: sixty what amp and a guitar.

716
00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:00,436
Speaker 2: What was your guitar back then?

717
00:37:00,716 --> 00:37:04,436
Speaker 3: Oh? It was a copy of a Gibson less Paul

718
00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:06,836
Speaker 3: made by a company called Arbiter. It was a sort

719
00:37:06,876 --> 00:37:08,036
Speaker 3: of one. It was my punk guitar.

720
00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:11,156
Speaker 2: Right, you're not one of those guys with a lot

721
00:37:11,156 --> 00:37:11,636
Speaker 2: of guitars.

722
00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:12,196
Speaker 3: I'm not.

723
00:37:12,236 --> 00:37:15,476
Speaker 2: No, I'm not really no, because Johnny Marz Yeah yeah.

724
00:37:15,556 --> 00:37:19,796
Speaker 3: End See I did a gig once with Steve Earl

725
00:37:19,916 --> 00:37:22,156
Speaker 3: in Montreal and he was opening for me. He had

726
00:37:22,156 --> 00:37:25,996
Speaker 3: twelve guitars could get on stage. I was like a

727
00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:30,116
Speaker 3: guitar shop on the Wing song exactly it was. Anyway,

728
00:37:30,196 --> 00:37:32,396
Speaker 3: So I'm not that guy. No, No, I do have

729
00:37:32,476 --> 00:37:34,756
Speaker 3: a I carry a couple of guitars I've probably got

730
00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:37,876
Speaker 3: home not more than a half a dozen knocking around

731
00:37:37,996 --> 00:37:39,076
Speaker 3: and you you.

732
00:37:39,036 --> 00:37:40,876
Speaker 2: Know when I when I would first see you play,

733
00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:45,196
Speaker 2: he would play what are called cowboy chords. Yeah, but

734
00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:47,036
Speaker 2: you'd strum the whole thing, which nobody does.

735
00:37:47,116 --> 00:37:49,196
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I'm basically a rhythm guitar player in a

736
00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:51,876
Speaker 3: punk band. That's why basically I'm not a lead guitar player.

737
00:37:51,876 --> 00:37:53,796
Speaker 3: I never was a lead guitar player. I'm a rhythm

738
00:37:53,836 --> 00:37:55,876
Speaker 3: guitar player, and I think I'm pretty good at that.

739
00:37:56,476 --> 00:37:59,996
Speaker 3: But it's very percussive. You know. The guitar heroes that

740
00:38:00,076 --> 00:38:03,116
Speaker 3: I have for people like Ray Koda and Ronnie Wood

741
00:38:03,476 --> 00:38:07,356
Speaker 3: and there John Lee Hooker, the guitar star, is pretty percussive.

742
00:38:07,356 --> 00:38:10,916
Speaker 3: It's about the rhythm, you know. So that's where I

743
00:38:11,076 --> 00:38:12,876
Speaker 3: get my licks from, get my ideas from.

744
00:38:12,996 --> 00:38:14,316
Speaker 2: I don't know how we got in that, but oh no.

745
00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:16,036
Speaker 2: He was asking what was it like to.

746
00:38:16,196 --> 00:38:18,876
Speaker 3: In the miner Strike? Yeh yeah, Well, first of all,

747
00:38:18,916 --> 00:38:23,036
Speaker 3: it was it was amazing to see because the audiences

748
00:38:23,076 --> 00:38:25,916
Speaker 3: would be my generation. But the people who were making

749
00:38:25,956 --> 00:38:28,436
Speaker 3: the speeches at the gigs to when they put round

750
00:38:28,476 --> 00:38:30,636
Speaker 3: the bucket to raise a bit more money would often

751
00:38:30,676 --> 00:38:32,956
Speaker 3: be the wives of the miners. So these were women

752
00:38:32,956 --> 00:38:36,556
Speaker 3: who were perhaps ten or fifteen years older, sometimes twenty

753
00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:39,836
Speaker 3: years older than the audience, working class women who probably

754
00:38:39,876 --> 00:38:41,956
Speaker 3: never spoke in public before. Talking to all these little

755
00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:44,516
Speaker 3: punk rockers, it was an amazing thing to see because

756
00:38:44,516 --> 00:38:47,316
Speaker 3: their husbands were either on the picket line or in prison. Right,

757
00:38:47,396 --> 00:38:49,076
Speaker 3: that in itself was amazing to watch.

758
00:38:49,396 --> 00:38:51,716
Speaker 2: This is the eighties, yeah, nine eighty four. It's almost

759
00:38:51,756 --> 00:38:52,716
Speaker 2: all coal mining.

760
00:38:52,956 --> 00:38:53,716
Speaker 3: It's all coal mining.

761
00:38:53,796 --> 00:38:53,996
Speaker 2: Yeah.

762
00:38:54,196 --> 00:38:56,956
Speaker 3: It's predominant in the North of England, South Wales, some

763
00:38:57,036 --> 00:38:59,116
Speaker 3: in Scotland, some in Kent, but predominantly the North of

764
00:38:59,156 --> 00:39:02,956
Speaker 3: England and South Wales, heavy heavy working class areas. You know,

765
00:39:03,996 --> 00:39:07,196
Speaker 3: villages where the pit is absolutely everything, you know, the

766
00:39:07,236 --> 00:39:11,636
Speaker 3: whole village, and they're like under siege from the police

767
00:39:11,996 --> 00:39:15,196
Speaker 3: and the state. And you would go up there and

768
00:39:15,636 --> 00:39:20,516
Speaker 3: the audiences were really really up for it and it

769
00:39:20,596 --> 00:39:23,276
Speaker 3: was just incredibly invigorating, and then you'd very often be

770
00:39:24,356 --> 00:39:28,756
Speaker 3: keeping on their sofa or in their spare room. You know,

771
00:39:28,796 --> 00:39:30,796
Speaker 3: you go back and you know, you go back to

772
00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:33,076
Speaker 3: their assimate your cup of team, maybe a bacon sandwich,

773
00:39:33,596 --> 00:39:35,476
Speaker 3: and then they sit down and talk politics because they

774
00:39:35,476 --> 00:39:38,876
Speaker 3: wanted to know why a pop star from London was

775
00:39:38,916 --> 00:39:41,796
Speaker 3: doing this. Is it just for the fame or you

776
00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:45,076
Speaker 3: actually walk the walk and talk the talk. So very

777
00:39:45,156 --> 00:39:47,196
Speaker 3: quickly I had to sort of because I didn't I

778
00:39:47,276 --> 00:39:48,636
Speaker 3: left go when I was sixteen, so I didn't have

779
00:39:48,636 --> 00:39:51,516
Speaker 3: a political education. I had to sort of learn the

780
00:39:52,476 --> 00:39:55,716
Speaker 3: language of Marxism to be able to put across my

781
00:39:55,756 --> 00:39:59,156
Speaker 3: ideas and define where I was coming from. That was

782
00:39:59,196 --> 00:40:02,876
Speaker 3: a real sharp learning curve. But you know, it was

783
00:40:03,236 --> 00:40:07,516
Speaker 3: a genuine radical situation. It was class. It was my

784
00:40:07,636 --> 00:40:13,316
Speaker 3: class against the state, really, so I couldn't not take part.

785
00:40:13,356 --> 00:40:17,156
Speaker 3: And also I'd listened to all these solo singer songwriters

786
00:40:17,156 --> 00:40:20,076
Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties trying to change the world through music,

787
00:40:20,436 --> 00:40:22,316
Speaker 3: and now I had opportunity to see if you can

788
00:40:22,396 --> 00:40:25,716
Speaker 3: actually change the world. Does it actually work this? Can

789
00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:30,476
Speaker 3: you go and sing songs and bring about social change?

790
00:40:30,716 --> 00:40:32,516
Speaker 3: Because that's what the clash told me you could. Music

791
00:40:32,556 --> 00:40:34,396
Speaker 3: will change the world, and I kind of believed that.

792
00:40:34,636 --> 00:40:36,076
Speaker 3: Now I had a chance to find out if that

793
00:40:36,196 --> 00:40:38,396
Speaker 3: was true or not. It turns out it's not.

794
00:40:39,636 --> 00:40:40,596
Speaker 2: Was that a whole lesson?

795
00:40:43,356 --> 00:40:47,156
Speaker 3: Initially? Maybe I suppose, But thinking about it, you know,

796
00:40:47,236 --> 00:40:51,356
Speaker 3: logically music has no agency, you know, it's not going

797
00:40:51,436 --> 00:40:54,636
Speaker 3: to win the election. It has the ability to bring

798
00:40:54,676 --> 00:40:57,436
Speaker 3: people together, and that in and of itself is a

799
00:40:57,476 --> 00:41:01,196
Speaker 3: positive thing because change happens, I think in you know,

800
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:08,836
Speaker 3: is catalyzed by two events. Firstly, your realization that things

801
00:41:08,836 --> 00:41:14,316
Speaker 3: and not right, and then secondly your realization that other

802
00:41:14,356 --> 00:41:18,196
Speaker 3: people have already realized that things are not right. You

803
00:41:18,236 --> 00:41:20,636
Speaker 3: realize you're not the only person who cares about this thing.

804
00:41:21,196 --> 00:41:24,156
Speaker 3: And music can bring you together into an audience where

805
00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:28,476
Speaker 3: you suddenly realize that like, ah okay, like as me rocking,

806
00:41:28,516 --> 00:41:30,876
Speaker 3: it's racism. When I speak from experience here, that's what

807
00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:34,476
Speaker 3: happened to me in Victoria Park in Hackney. I realized

808
00:41:34,476 --> 00:41:36,236
Speaker 3: I wasn't the only person who cared about these things,

809
00:41:36,236 --> 00:41:38,396
Speaker 3: you know. And you know, when I make my pitch

810
00:41:39,836 --> 00:41:42,956
Speaker 3: for a solidarity with the trans community, when I sing

811
00:41:43,116 --> 00:41:47,036
Speaker 3: sexuality on these shows, they will undoubtedly be people my age,

812
00:41:47,036 --> 00:41:49,756
Speaker 3: because my audience predominantly my age in you know, sixties,

813
00:41:51,236 --> 00:41:53,836
Speaker 3: who probably haven't given the issue much thought. It's not

814
00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:55,796
Speaker 3: that they're anti or pro and even it's just something

815
00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:57,716
Speaker 3: like they're like it's too much trouble, but they see

816
00:41:57,756 --> 00:42:00,196
Speaker 3: themselves in an audience who are expressing solidarity with this,

817
00:42:00,236 --> 00:42:02,956
Speaker 3: who are responding positively to what I'm saying, and they

818
00:42:02,956 --> 00:42:05,316
Speaker 3: look around him and they think, Wow, maybe I should

819
00:42:05,316 --> 00:42:07,796
Speaker 3: get off the fence on this, maybe have a think

820
00:42:07,836 --> 00:42:10,116
Speaker 3: about what's going on here, because clearly this is an

821
00:42:10,116 --> 00:42:12,156
Speaker 3: important issue to these people who I have so much

822
00:42:12,196 --> 00:42:16,316
Speaker 3: in come with. And that's how music can affect change,

823
00:42:16,956 --> 00:42:20,956
Speaker 3: not directly, not storm the barricades' way, but just by

824
00:42:21,396 --> 00:42:25,316
Speaker 3: planting ideas in people's minds, introducing them to different concepts,

825
00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:28,996
Speaker 3: challenging their perceptions music. That's one of the things that

826
00:42:29,076 --> 00:42:31,356
Speaker 3: music can do. It doesn't have to do it all

827
00:42:31,396 --> 00:42:33,916
Speaker 3: the time. It's not the defining aspect of it, but

828
00:42:33,956 --> 00:42:35,516
Speaker 3: it's one of the many things it can do. And

829
00:42:35,556 --> 00:42:39,636
Speaker 3: I think coming from a twentieth century music culture in

830
00:42:39,676 --> 00:42:41,996
Speaker 3: which music was our social medium, which I had to

831
00:42:42,116 --> 00:42:46,996
Speaker 3: articulate everything that my generation thought through music, and we had,

832
00:42:47,196 --> 00:42:49,876
Speaker 3: you know, three four weekly music papers in the UK

833
00:42:49,956 --> 00:42:52,876
Speaker 3: to thrash these ideas out. The idea that music should

834
00:42:52,876 --> 00:42:55,116
Speaker 3: be something more than I'm great your shit, you like

835
00:42:55,196 --> 00:42:59,556
Speaker 3: my socks to paraphrase Oasis is still important to me.

836
00:42:59,996 --> 00:43:02,876
Speaker 3: I don't know if younger people feel that way. It's

837
00:43:02,876 --> 00:43:05,356
Speaker 3: not something that I'm going to say, listen, this is

838
00:43:05,356 --> 00:43:06,716
Speaker 3: the way it should be. It's not my job to

839
00:43:06,716 --> 00:43:09,756
Speaker 3: do that. I hear young people write songs about the

840
00:43:09,756 --> 00:43:12,596
Speaker 3: pressure that they feel under. That's enough for me that

841
00:43:12,636 --> 00:43:14,716
Speaker 3: they are talking about that, they are using music to

842
00:43:14,796 --> 00:43:17,716
Speaker 3: articulate their feelings about that. I'm not going to start

843
00:43:17,796 --> 00:43:20,076
Speaker 3: leaning them and say, why don't you write about trade unions.

844
00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:21,916
Speaker 3: I'm not going to write that because they have not

845
00:43:21,916 --> 00:43:25,316
Speaker 3: been through the minor strike. They've had a different cultural perception,

846
00:43:26,596 --> 00:43:28,316
Speaker 3: put culture experience to the one I've had.

847
00:43:29,556 --> 00:43:31,276
Speaker 1: After this last break, we'll be back with the rest

848
00:43:31,276 --> 00:43:38,796
Speaker 1: of Bruce Headlam's conversation with Billy Bragg. Here's the rest

849
00:43:38,836 --> 00:43:40,716
Speaker 1: of our conversation with Billy Bragg.

850
00:43:41,596 --> 00:43:45,836
Speaker 2: The album with Trust Tank Part Salute, Tank Park, Salute,

851
00:43:45,836 --> 00:43:46,276
Speaker 2: Pardon Me.

852
00:43:47,156 --> 00:43:47,956
Speaker 3: Don't try this own?

853
00:43:48,516 --> 00:43:50,676
Speaker 2: It was was Yeah, I thought, are you saying that

854
00:43:50,716 --> 00:43:52,436
Speaker 2: about me trying to say Tank Park.

855
00:43:54,516 --> 00:43:54,876
Speaker 1: At home?

856
00:43:55,436 --> 00:43:57,676
Speaker 2: It was much more a bigger musical.

857
00:43:58,156 --> 00:43:59,716
Speaker 3: It was yeah, did you like that?

858
00:43:59,876 --> 00:44:02,636
Speaker 2: Because people are like, oh, finally you know, Billy Bragg

859
00:44:02,636 --> 00:44:03,716
Speaker 2: has discovered the eighties?

860
00:44:05,916 --> 00:44:08,036
Speaker 3: Well that was that was about being doctrinaire as well

861
00:44:08,076 --> 00:44:09,036
Speaker 3: in some ways, you know.

862
00:44:09,436 --> 00:44:11,116
Speaker 2: But there. You know, when I think of the song,

863
00:44:11,236 --> 00:44:16,956
Speaker 2: you know everywhere Sindy of a thousand lives very different sounds.

864
00:44:17,436 --> 00:44:19,916
Speaker 3: Well, you've got to progress, haven't you one, you know,

865
00:44:20,476 --> 00:44:22,756
Speaker 3: that's that's my thing. But what happened was I wrote

866
00:44:22,756 --> 00:44:26,716
Speaker 3: Sexuality and it kind of sounded like Louis Louis and

867
00:44:26,836 --> 00:44:30,116
Speaker 3: Johnny mar got hold of it and made that track

868
00:44:30,236 --> 00:44:34,156
Speaker 3: that you now hear and it was a shining pop

869
00:44:34,196 --> 00:44:36,876
Speaker 3: monstrosity and when it came back, me and my producer

870
00:44:36,916 --> 00:44:40,276
Speaker 3: Grant Showbiz were like, oh damn, you know, now we're

871
00:44:40,276 --> 00:44:42,396
Speaker 3: going to have to make the album a that that

872
00:44:42,636 --> 00:44:45,076
Speaker 3: sits on. But it was good. It was a challenge,

873
00:44:45,116 --> 00:44:47,996
Speaker 3: you know, and coming as it did, I think, I think,

874
00:44:48,036 --> 00:44:50,436
Speaker 3: if you're really really lucky, you get ten good years

875
00:44:50,476 --> 00:44:53,116
Speaker 3: where people are interested in what you're doing, and you can,

876
00:44:53,276 --> 00:44:56,396
Speaker 3: you know, you can feel that when you do something

877
00:44:56,436 --> 00:44:59,556
Speaker 3: the media will be you know, give you a front

878
00:44:59,556 --> 00:45:01,236
Speaker 3: page and stuff like that. If you get ten years,

879
00:45:01,236 --> 00:45:02,956
Speaker 3: you're really really lucky. And that comes at the end

880
00:45:02,996 --> 00:45:07,316
Speaker 3: of kind of that period where I was, you know,

881
00:45:07,316 --> 00:45:09,596
Speaker 3: I got me on top of the pops. Everybody at

882
00:45:09,636 --> 00:45:11,396
Speaker 3: home thinks it was a huge hit record, which actually

883
00:45:11,436 --> 00:45:12,996
Speaker 3: I only got to number twenty six in the charts.

884
00:45:13,036 --> 00:45:15,716
Speaker 3: But you know the perception of it is that that's

885
00:45:15,756 --> 00:45:16,236
Speaker 3: what it was.

886
00:45:16,836 --> 00:45:18,156
Speaker 2: If you're going to sell out, you've got to get

887
00:45:18,196 --> 00:45:18,796
Speaker 2: to the top ten.

888
00:45:19,036 --> 00:45:26,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And consequently, after that record, I had a

889
00:45:26,116 --> 00:45:27,916
Speaker 3: grumble appendix. I was off the road for a while

890
00:45:27,956 --> 00:45:30,476
Speaker 3: and I got together with my partner and we you know,

891
00:45:30,516 --> 00:45:34,036
Speaker 3: we became parents and everything and everything changed. So but

892
00:45:34,076 --> 00:45:36,276
Speaker 3: it was also an aspect of that where I kind

893
00:45:36,276 --> 00:45:38,716
Speaker 3: of painted myself into a corner because I can't really

894
00:45:38,716 --> 00:45:41,436
Speaker 3: be a big production pop star. That's not really who

895
00:45:41,476 --> 00:45:43,076
Speaker 3: I am. I can do it. You want me to

896
00:45:43,116 --> 00:45:45,316
Speaker 3: do it? Here, here we go, I can do it.

897
00:45:45,436 --> 00:45:47,476
Speaker 3: Check out this Ciddy of a thousand Lives. This is

898
00:45:47,476 --> 00:45:49,796
Speaker 3: a song about an American photographer that you've never heard of,

899
00:45:50,236 --> 00:45:55,276
Speaker 3: who does incredible images that are all of herself. Here

900
00:45:55,316 --> 00:45:58,116
Speaker 3: it is Sherman. Yeah, Cindy Sherman, the great Cindy Sherman.

901
00:45:58,716 --> 00:46:02,156
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I was. I was incredibly and still

902
00:46:02,196 --> 00:46:05,076
Speaker 3: am incredibly proud of that record, but I couldn't carry

903
00:46:05,076 --> 00:46:09,356
Speaker 3: on a natural dijectory. You know. It was sort of

904
00:46:09,436 --> 00:46:16,556
Speaker 3: like who want me? So fortunately then I made William Blake,

905
00:46:16,556 --> 00:46:20,156
Speaker 3: which was a much more personal record, much more a

906
00:46:20,196 --> 00:46:23,156
Speaker 3: post parenthood record which I'm which I'm very proud of

907
00:46:23,196 --> 00:46:23,556
Speaker 3: as well.

908
00:46:24,476 --> 00:46:27,756
Speaker 2: And I do want to ask you about Tank Park.

909
00:46:28,156 --> 00:46:33,716
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure, Tank Park salute was. I had a very

910
00:46:33,756 --> 00:46:37,716
Speaker 3: strange genesis. Let's start by saying that when I was eighteen,

911
00:46:37,756 --> 00:46:39,756
Speaker 3: my father died of lung cancer, who was fifty two

912
00:46:39,836 --> 00:46:46,116
Speaker 3: years old. The hospital when he got ill told us

913
00:46:46,116 --> 00:46:47,636
Speaker 3: the best way to deal with this would be not

914
00:46:47,756 --> 00:46:49,996
Speaker 3: to talk about it, not to talk about it in

915
00:46:50,036 --> 00:46:52,116
Speaker 3: front of him, and not to talk about it among ourselves.

916
00:46:52,156 --> 00:46:54,796
Speaker 2: So I have to stop you there, because that is

917
00:46:54,836 --> 00:46:56,076
Speaker 2: so English.

918
00:46:56,156 --> 00:46:58,236
Speaker 3: I know, it's terrible, isn't it, But it's also it's

919
00:46:58,276 --> 00:47:02,836
Speaker 3: also so my father's generation. And looking back now, I

920
00:47:03,956 --> 00:47:06,796
Speaker 3: it was a mistake. My mother really regretted it. She

921
00:47:06,996 --> 00:47:09,036
Speaker 3: really regretted it till the day she died. When she

922
00:47:09,396 --> 00:47:11,996
Speaker 3: got cancer and I went to see her in the hospital,

923
00:47:12,036 --> 00:47:14,796
Speaker 3: she said to me, we're going to talk about this,

924
00:47:14,876 --> 00:47:18,276
Speaker 3: and I'm like, we are, of course, we are, we are.

925
00:47:18,316 --> 00:47:22,076
Speaker 3: She hated it. My father had every opportunity to say

926
00:47:22,116 --> 00:47:24,756
Speaker 3: to me, son, I think I'm dying. Look I'm coughing

927
00:47:24,796 --> 00:47:27,436
Speaker 3: up blood. Look I'm dying. He never did. He never

928
00:47:27,436 --> 00:47:34,116
Speaker 3: said it, so I don't know. My brother, who's five

929
00:47:34,156 --> 00:47:36,076
Speaker 3: years younger than me. He was at school at the time,

930
00:47:37,036 --> 00:47:39,476
Speaker 3: and I was there when my father died. My brothers

931
00:47:39,476 --> 00:47:43,876
Speaker 3: never asked me about it. And I respect that. I'm

932
00:47:43,876 --> 00:47:45,956
Speaker 3: not going to suddenly turn up and say to him

933
00:47:45,996 --> 00:47:48,436
Speaker 3: and listen, I'm going to tell you what happened that day.

934
00:47:48,996 --> 00:47:50,476
Speaker 3: If he doesn't want to know, he doesn't want to know,

935
00:47:50,916 --> 00:47:53,316
Speaker 3: and I respect that. But I was in a very

936
00:47:53,396 --> 00:47:55,996
Speaker 3: weird situation where I never spoke to it about anybody

937
00:47:56,076 --> 00:47:59,516
Speaker 3: I ever. I spoke to it what happened to anybody.

938
00:48:00,596 --> 00:48:04,356
Speaker 3: And then one day I was writing a song and

939
00:48:04,356 --> 00:48:09,476
Speaker 3: a line came out. I closed my eye and when

940
00:48:09,476 --> 00:48:11,476
Speaker 3: I looked, your name was in the memorial book. And

941
00:48:11,516 --> 00:48:16,476
Speaker 3: now where my father's ashes are scattered, they have a

942
00:48:16,476 --> 00:48:18,756
Speaker 3: book there on the anniversary of the day of his death,

943
00:48:18,796 --> 00:48:20,676
Speaker 3: which opens on the page and his name's there. And

944
00:48:20,716 --> 00:48:21,956
Speaker 3: I used to go to it my mum on the

945
00:48:21,996 --> 00:48:25,316
Speaker 3: anniversary and look at the book and go and visit.

946
00:48:25,396 --> 00:48:30,636
Speaker 3: That's what we did. And this line, I was like, oh, now,

947
00:48:30,636 --> 00:48:34,596
Speaker 3: this is interesting. If I go down this path, I'm

948
00:48:34,596 --> 00:48:36,156
Speaker 3: going to be in a situation where I have to

949
00:48:36,156 --> 00:48:39,796
Speaker 3: talk to strangers about what happened. How do I feel

950
00:48:39,836 --> 00:48:43,636
Speaker 3: about that? I wasn't really sure how I felt about that,

951
00:48:43,676 --> 00:48:46,036
Speaker 3: but nonetheless I wrote that song in the next hour.

952
00:48:46,076 --> 00:48:50,356
Speaker 3: It just came out. Who like a there. It was

953
00:48:50,916 --> 00:48:53,036
Speaker 3: fully formed around that old who had that guitar lick.

954
00:48:53,076 --> 00:48:54,396
Speaker 3: That's what I was writing the other song to that

955
00:48:54,436 --> 00:48:58,596
Speaker 3: guitar lick. So the next time was rehearsing in my

956
00:48:58,676 --> 00:49:02,436
Speaker 3: keyboard player car TV I taught at the piano part

957
00:49:02,516 --> 00:49:05,436
Speaker 3: played the song. She said, Oh, that's about your dad,

958
00:49:05,436 --> 00:49:09,756
Speaker 3: don't it. I said, yeah, it is Cary. Yeah. So

959
00:49:09,796 --> 00:49:11,916
Speaker 3: I thought, well, if she didn't get it like that,

960
00:49:12,036 --> 00:49:16,996
Speaker 3: obviously it you know, it's hits the mark. So I

961
00:49:17,036 --> 00:49:19,756
Speaker 3: started playing it live and it had that effect. People

962
00:49:19,796 --> 00:49:21,476
Speaker 3: would come and talk to me about someone that they

963
00:49:21,476 --> 00:49:26,276
Speaker 3: had lost, and still do. People write to me and say,

964
00:49:26,316 --> 00:49:31,076
Speaker 3: you know, your song really helped me to process things

965
00:49:31,196 --> 00:49:35,596
Speaker 3: about how my father or whoever lost, and it's great

966
00:49:35,636 --> 00:49:37,436
Speaker 3: to be able to write back to them and say,

967
00:49:37,476 --> 00:49:40,116
Speaker 3: you know what made it. It had exactly the same

968
00:49:40,156 --> 00:49:43,356
Speaker 3: effect on me. It helped me to process how I

969
00:49:43,396 --> 00:49:45,316
Speaker 3: felt about the loss of my father, to the extent

970
00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:48,556
Speaker 3: that I can now talk about it without being overcome

971
00:49:49,236 --> 00:49:55,396
Speaker 3: with emotion, and so, you know, I'm really pleased to

972
00:49:55,396 --> 00:49:58,476
Speaker 3: have a song about that. My mum, whenever I played

973
00:49:59,796 --> 00:50:03,116
Speaker 3: in London or where she came to see me play,

974
00:50:03,196 --> 00:50:05,716
Speaker 3: she would always say, before you're going to play that song,

975
00:50:05,716 --> 00:50:07,316
Speaker 3: aren't you. I don't think she even knew what it

976
00:50:07,316 --> 00:50:10,636
Speaker 3: was called, play that song. And I would play the song,

977
00:50:10,676 --> 00:50:12,596
Speaker 3: of course. I would play the song nervously while she

978
00:50:12,676 --> 00:50:16,716
Speaker 3: was there, you know, so self consciously. And then my

979
00:50:16,756 --> 00:50:19,236
Speaker 3: nephews will say to me, why do you keep playing

980
00:50:19,236 --> 00:50:21,076
Speaker 3: that song that makes Nan cry every time we come

981
00:50:21,076 --> 00:50:25,876
Speaker 3: and see you, And I'll be like, boys, Asher Nan,

982
00:50:25,996 --> 00:50:29,316
Speaker 3: all right, And then I tell you, yeah.

983
00:50:29,476 --> 00:50:32,036
Speaker 2: I have to say and this is inappropriate. But the

984
00:50:32,196 --> 00:50:35,316
Speaker 2: comic version of the we're not talking the English, we're

985
00:50:35,316 --> 00:50:39,196
Speaker 2: not talking about it, yeah, is and it is my

986
00:50:39,236 --> 00:50:42,716
Speaker 2: favorite line in Spinal Tap Yeah, when they're talking about

987
00:50:44,036 --> 00:50:46,796
Speaker 2: one of the drummers died. Yeah, and the phrases said

988
00:50:46,796 --> 00:50:51,876
Speaker 2: the police said best left unsolved, the most English line.

989
00:50:52,036 --> 00:50:55,836
Speaker 2: That whole thing is that how songs come to you

990
00:50:55,916 --> 00:50:58,516
Speaker 2: a phrase or two, and then that opens up the

991
00:50:58,556 --> 00:51:00,516
Speaker 2: idea you mentioned you wrote a song about. I had

992
00:51:00,516 --> 00:51:03,436
Speaker 2: no idea. Cindy of a Thousand Lives was about Cindy Sherman.

993
00:51:03,516 --> 00:51:05,756
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Cindy Sherman was a big part of my

994
00:51:06,916 --> 00:51:10,916
Speaker 3: realization of America. On that first trip, I bought loads

995
00:51:10,916 --> 00:51:13,636
Speaker 3: of postcards to send home. But then I just started

996
00:51:13,636 --> 00:51:15,676
Speaker 3: buying postcards that just had images. You know, you can

997
00:51:15,716 --> 00:51:18,436
Speaker 3: get postcard with James brown It, you get a postcard

998
00:51:18,516 --> 00:51:22,156
Speaker 3: with you know, Smoky Robinson the Miracles. And I found

999
00:51:22,156 --> 00:51:30,156
Speaker 3: there's a famous Cindy Sherman photograph of like a child

1000
00:51:30,396 --> 00:51:33,836
Speaker 3: with a pig's head eating an apple, and it was

1001
00:51:34,036 --> 00:51:37,476
Speaker 3: so weird. It was so weird. I saw it and

1002
00:51:37,516 --> 00:51:39,996
Speaker 3: I bought it, and I thought, what the heck, kiss this?

1003
00:51:40,116 --> 00:51:44,116
Speaker 3: What madness? What strange weirdness. I mean, America's a weird

1004
00:51:44,196 --> 00:51:48,476
Speaker 3: enough place if you've never been here before, but that's,

1005
00:51:48,756 --> 00:51:52,436
Speaker 3: to me, summed up the weirdness of America. And I

1006
00:51:52,476 --> 00:51:55,356
Speaker 3: subsequently found out what it was and who she was,

1007
00:51:55,436 --> 00:51:57,796
Speaker 3: and I bought her, you know, coming to the US

1008
00:51:58,356 --> 00:52:00,436
Speaker 3: back and forth in the eighties, I was able to find,

1009
00:52:01,396 --> 00:52:06,636
Speaker 3: you know, books about her exhibitions and stuff, and it

1010
00:52:06,756 --> 00:52:09,716
Speaker 3: always intrigued me what she was doing that, you know,

1011
00:52:11,436 --> 00:52:14,476
Speaker 3: putting herself in the in the absolutely in the art

1012
00:52:14,476 --> 00:52:16,276
Speaker 3: as a songwriter, that's something that you try and do.

1013
00:52:16,316 --> 00:52:19,236
Speaker 3: You try and put yourself in there, even subconsciously. Sometimes

1014
00:52:19,236 --> 00:52:21,596
Speaker 3: you don't realize you're doing it, putting yourself in there.

1015
00:52:21,676 --> 00:52:26,036
Speaker 3: So I was very much attracted to that, and when

1016
00:52:26,036 --> 00:52:31,636
Speaker 3: I got those weird chords, the song kind of sort

1017
00:52:31,676 --> 00:52:34,396
Speaker 3: of developed out of that. Going back to those, I

1018
00:52:34,436 --> 00:52:37,156
Speaker 3: think they call them a murder pictures, a kind of

1019
00:52:37,196 --> 00:52:41,396
Speaker 3: like weird scary periods she went through, which I think

1020
00:52:42,356 --> 00:52:46,236
Speaker 3: it comes after the original, sort of like cinema scenes,

1021
00:52:46,596 --> 00:52:51,156
Speaker 3: untitled pictures that are really really There's something about the

1022
00:52:51,276 --> 00:52:56,876
Speaker 3: United States America that's very strange to people coming from

1023
00:52:57,116 --> 00:53:00,716
Speaker 3: my country is the vastness of it and the fact

1024
00:53:00,836 --> 00:53:05,476
Speaker 3: most of it isn't inhabited. Well Springsteen referred to as

1025
00:53:05,516 --> 00:53:07,396
Speaker 3: the darkness on the edge of town. We don't have

1026
00:53:07,516 --> 00:53:09,836
Speaker 3: much of that in my country. You might have the

1027
00:53:09,916 --> 00:53:11,436
Speaker 3: darkness on the edge of town, but you can probably

1028
00:53:11,436 --> 00:53:14,916
Speaker 3: see another town just up the ways a bit. You

1029
00:53:14,956 --> 00:53:18,556
Speaker 3: don't have that bit where the town ends and there's

1030
00:53:18,676 --> 00:53:22,156
Speaker 3: the piney woods, and the piney woods go on for

1031
00:53:22,316 --> 00:53:24,396
Speaker 3: miles and miles, and you know, when you're flying in

1032
00:53:24,396 --> 00:53:28,036
Speaker 3: over New Jersey sometimes it's piney, piney, piney, piney woods.

1033
00:53:28,036 --> 00:53:31,636
Speaker 3: And then while there's New York, it's that like it's

1034
00:53:31,676 --> 00:53:34,756
Speaker 3: like the moors around Manchester. You know they're coming there,

1035
00:53:34,836 --> 00:53:38,076
Speaker 3: kind of stand around, and as a European you get

1036
00:53:38,076 --> 00:53:42,356
Speaker 3: that weird in the pines thing and something that those

1037
00:53:42,516 --> 00:53:46,796
Speaker 3: Cindy Sherman postcards from that period of her her art

1038
00:53:46,996 --> 00:53:51,156
Speaker 3: really spoke to me about that, that you know, what's

1039
00:53:51,196 --> 00:53:55,036
Speaker 3: out there in the majority of on any given night,

1040
00:53:55,156 --> 00:53:57,476
Speaker 3: the majority of the United States America is in complete

1041
00:53:57,476 --> 00:54:00,636
Speaker 3: and out of darkness. That's a weird thing to someone

1042
00:54:00,676 --> 00:54:03,356
Speaker 3: coming from a little island off the coast of Europe.

1043
00:54:03,516 --> 00:54:04,196
Speaker 2: Have you met her?

1044
00:54:04,436 --> 00:54:06,796
Speaker 3: No, No, I've never met her, but weirdly, she was

1045
00:54:06,836 --> 00:54:10,876
Speaker 3: interviewed in The Guardian last month and I was, I was,

1046
00:54:12,076 --> 00:54:14,196
Speaker 3: it's always great to read about what she's doing and

1047
00:54:14,236 --> 00:54:15,516
Speaker 3: see what she's up to. I don't know if she

1048
00:54:15,556 --> 00:54:19,876
Speaker 3: maybe shows an exhibition. And then the very last paragraph,

1049
00:54:20,476 --> 00:54:23,876
Speaker 3: the journalist asked her if she'd ever heard the song,

1050
00:54:24,396 --> 00:54:26,716
Speaker 3: and she said no. She was very flattered by it. Particularly,

1051
00:54:26,836 --> 00:54:30,036
Speaker 3: she said particularly I've never met him, as if I'd

1052
00:54:30,036 --> 00:54:31,916
Speaker 3: need to meet her to be able to write a

1053
00:54:31,916 --> 00:54:34,236
Speaker 3: song like that, because I don't really need you.

1054
00:54:34,396 --> 00:54:35,036
Speaker 2: You're an artist.

1055
00:54:35,436 --> 00:54:38,756
Speaker 3: I mean, it's there. It's about how what she did

1056
00:54:38,836 --> 00:54:41,916
Speaker 3: move me and I'm responding to that. So it'd be

1057
00:54:41,956 --> 00:54:45,156
Speaker 3: lovely to meet her. But whether that would help me

1058
00:54:45,236 --> 00:54:47,876
Speaker 3: understand better or anything that she's done, probably not. You know,

1059
00:54:47,956 --> 00:54:52,396
Speaker 3: sometimes it's it's lovely to know that she's flattered by it,

1060
00:54:52,436 --> 00:54:56,076
Speaker 3: because sometimes you know, people don't. You don't want the attention,

1061
00:54:56,156 --> 00:55:01,276
Speaker 3: but a huge respect for someone who can have a

1062
00:55:01,356 --> 00:55:04,516
Speaker 3: vision like that and communicate it so powerfully.

1063
00:55:05,596 --> 00:55:08,236
Speaker 2: I should ask you, I've never heard you talk about Springsteen.

1064
00:55:08,236 --> 00:55:10,276
Speaker 2: You just mentioned it. Are you a fan of a

1065
00:55:10,396 --> 00:55:13,156
Speaker 2: huge fan? Huge fan?

1066
00:55:13,436 --> 00:55:17,116
Speaker 3: He has that redemptive power as well, like soul music.

1067
00:55:17,836 --> 00:55:21,636
Speaker 3: You know, whatever happens for the characters in his song,

1068
00:55:22,196 --> 00:55:24,396
Speaker 3: there's always the possibility that they can ride to the

1069
00:55:24,436 --> 00:55:26,316
Speaker 3: sea and wash these sins off their hands. You know,

1070
00:55:26,476 --> 00:55:29,276
Speaker 3: they're doing racing in the street. I mean darkness on

1071
00:55:29,316 --> 00:55:32,236
Speaker 3: the edge of town. We were just talking about about that,

1072
00:55:33,316 --> 00:55:37,076
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, is there is there any great

1073
00:55:37,276 --> 00:55:40,356
Speaker 3: opening line in pop music? Then they blew up the

1074
00:55:40,436 --> 00:55:42,076
Speaker 3: Chicken Man in Philly last night? I mean, what a

1075
00:55:42,116 --> 00:55:46,516
Speaker 3: great line that is. It's such a great line. I

1076
00:55:46,556 --> 00:55:50,276
Speaker 3: saw him at Meadowlands on born in USA, too blew

1077
00:55:50,356 --> 00:55:52,676
Speaker 3: my mind. He made it feel like a club, just

1078
00:55:52,676 --> 00:55:55,356
Speaker 3: did my head in completely. I was like, I mean,

1079
00:55:55,356 --> 00:55:57,796
Speaker 3: the trouble is I think maybe it's just I don't know,

1080
00:55:57,796 --> 00:55:59,476
Speaker 3: it might just be me. Maybe all performances like this.

1081
00:55:59,516 --> 00:56:01,436
Speaker 3: But when you go and see a songwriter or you know,

1082
00:56:02,276 --> 00:56:04,316
Speaker 3: somebody who does a job similar to your job, you

1083
00:56:04,316 --> 00:56:06,516
Speaker 3: spend all your time analyzing what they're doing, how they're

1084
00:56:06,516 --> 00:56:08,596
Speaker 3: doing that, why are they doing that, what's going on there?

1085
00:56:08,636 --> 00:56:10,876
Speaker 3: You know, it gets in the way of watching Elvis Costello.

1086
00:56:11,156 --> 00:56:13,276
Speaker 3: It's impossible for me to enjoy Bob Dylan gig. I'm

1087
00:56:13,276 --> 00:56:15,716
Speaker 3: trying to all the time think you know what's going

1088
00:56:15,796 --> 00:56:17,636
Speaker 3: on here? But Springsteen was just like.

1089
00:56:19,116 --> 00:56:21,556
Speaker 2: I think he's so connected to the audience. There's no

1090
00:56:21,756 --> 00:56:23,796
Speaker 2: like I was used to English bands or kind of

1091
00:56:23,876 --> 00:56:26,756
Speaker 2: nodding at each other somebody ironically, there's none of that.

1092
00:56:26,876 --> 00:56:30,836
Speaker 3: No, he totally He's all there and he doesn't leave anything.

1093
00:56:31,836 --> 00:56:34,636
Speaker 3: He doesn't leave anything backstage. It's all there out front.

1094
00:56:34,916 --> 00:56:37,756
Speaker 3: You get it every time, and it just gives and

1095
00:56:37,796 --> 00:56:39,676
Speaker 3: gives and gives.

1096
00:56:38,996 --> 00:56:44,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, after you did William Blook, you did Mermaid, the

1097
00:56:44,516 --> 00:56:48,836
Speaker 2: first Mermaid Abby, Yeah, And I think people know the

1098
00:56:49,476 --> 00:56:51,756
Speaker 2: sort of genesis of the project that you got all

1099
00:56:51,796 --> 00:56:56,676
Speaker 2: these lyrics of Woody Guthrie's. When you saw these archives,

1100
00:56:57,116 --> 00:56:58,956
Speaker 2: what surprised you what jumped out.

1101
00:56:59,556 --> 00:57:05,356
Speaker 3: How much there was three thousand complete lyrics boxes and boxes.

1102
00:57:05,876 --> 00:57:07,996
Speaker 3: The start off pulling out the songs you think are good,

1103
00:57:07,996 --> 00:57:11,676
Speaker 3: and you realize, actually, there's amazing songs in there. And

1104
00:57:11,676 --> 00:57:13,236
Speaker 3: you pull out the amazing ones and you realize there

1105
00:57:13,236 --> 00:57:14,596
Speaker 3: are brilliant songs in there, and you have to go

1106
00:57:14,676 --> 00:57:18,116
Speaker 3: back put some back in the box they come out

1107
00:57:18,116 --> 00:57:20,436
Speaker 3: of and you realize that, and then you get on

1108
00:57:20,476 --> 00:57:23,396
Speaker 3: a thread, and then you realize that, yeah, you get

1109
00:57:23,436 --> 00:57:24,636
Speaker 3: a bit of paper and it's got written on the

1110
00:57:24,676 --> 00:57:26,596
Speaker 3: bit of you know, it's a song here, but the

1111
00:57:26,636 --> 00:57:28,636
Speaker 3: top of the bit of paper someone what he's written

1112
00:57:29,276 --> 00:57:31,516
Speaker 3: way over yonder in the minor key. You're like that,

1113
00:57:32,116 --> 00:57:34,356
Speaker 3: what does that mean? You go through morning and you

1114
00:57:34,356 --> 00:57:36,596
Speaker 3: see again, you know, way over yonder in the minor

1115
00:57:36,676 --> 00:57:38,316
Speaker 3: kin and maybe a little bit more of a scrubble lewick.

1116
00:57:39,036 --> 00:57:41,636
Speaker 3: And eventually you come to a song that says, let's

1117
00:57:41,636 --> 00:57:43,396
Speaker 3: got way over yonder in the minor key in the chorus,

1118
00:57:43,436 --> 00:57:46,436
Speaker 3: and you realize it, he's left your paper trail. They

1119
00:57:46,516 --> 00:57:48,836
Speaker 3: kind of find somebody to find and connect with his song.

1120
00:57:50,316 --> 00:57:54,156
Speaker 2: I think as a listener, what surprised me the most

1121
00:57:54,756 --> 00:57:59,596
Speaker 2: was how modern the songs sounded, because I'm not a

1122
00:57:59,676 --> 00:58:03,556
Speaker 2: would he got through affection auto he I think to

1123
00:58:03,636 --> 00:58:06,596
Speaker 2: many people just seemed like a character from the Grapes

1124
00:58:06,636 --> 00:58:12,276
Speaker 2: of Wrath. It's this sort of Sepia toned hobo crossing.

1125
00:58:11,836 --> 00:58:13,396
Speaker 3: The country, of course.

1126
00:58:13,556 --> 00:58:17,836
Speaker 2: And so the songs were so funny, yep, which surprised me,

1127
00:58:17,916 --> 00:58:19,916
Speaker 2: but not funny in the way that you know Christ

1128
00:58:19,956 --> 00:58:23,156
Speaker 2: for President or some of his kids songs were. And

1129
00:58:23,276 --> 00:58:24,316
Speaker 2: Walt Whitman's niece.

1130
00:58:24,916 --> 00:58:27,116
Speaker 3: That's why we opened with it, so everyone knew where

1131
00:58:27,116 --> 00:58:28,436
Speaker 3: we were going. Don't think you're going to get the

1132
00:58:28,476 --> 00:58:30,076
Speaker 3: dust bowl balladi in mate, this.

1133
00:58:29,996 --> 00:58:31,236
Speaker 2: Is well, that's what.

1134
00:58:31,236 --> 00:58:32,996
Speaker 3: There's a couple of reasons for that. There's a couple

1135
00:58:33,036 --> 00:58:38,516
Speaker 3: of reasons for that. Firstly, Norah Guthrie, Woody's daughter, who

1136
00:58:39,476 --> 00:58:41,476
Speaker 3: was running the archive at the time, who asked me

1137
00:58:41,516 --> 00:58:43,876
Speaker 3: to come and look at the lyrics. She was concerned

1138
00:58:43,876 --> 00:58:46,996
Speaker 3: that this is like the late nineties, her father was

1139
00:58:46,996 --> 00:58:50,996
Speaker 3: becoming a bit of a two dimensional figure who you know,

1140
00:58:51,196 --> 00:58:53,276
Speaker 3: was only kind of up on a pedestal. It was

1141
00:58:53,276 --> 00:58:57,596
Speaker 3: the dust Bowl balladeer, and she rightly pointed out that

1142
00:58:57,636 --> 00:58:59,876
Speaker 3: he actually lived half his life in New York City,

1143
00:59:00,796 --> 00:59:03,596
Speaker 3: down on Coney Island, at a time when New York

1144
00:59:03,636 --> 00:59:07,676
Speaker 3: City was perhaps the most exciting cultural city in the world.

1145
00:59:07,836 --> 00:59:09,836
Speaker 3: You know, from nineteen thirty nine until he died in

1146
00:59:09,876 --> 00:59:15,116
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty seven, he was here in New York. So

1147
00:59:15,156 --> 00:59:17,956
Speaker 3: she wanted that aspect of him to come out. You know,

1148
00:59:17,996 --> 00:59:20,876
Speaker 3: everyone had heard the dust Body was one song early on.

1149
00:59:22,196 --> 00:59:25,596
Speaker 3: Because Woody often wrote the tunes to traditional tunes, there

1150
00:59:25,596 --> 00:59:28,556
Speaker 3: was one song called My thirty thousand that was clearly

1151
00:59:28,596 --> 00:59:31,636
Speaker 3: because the lyric, the opening line was written to the

1152
00:59:31,676 --> 00:59:35,316
Speaker 3: tune of an old American folk song called Jesse James.

1153
00:59:35,596 --> 00:59:38,996
Speaker 3: Jesse James was the man that Lay's children. They were

1154
00:59:39,036 --> 00:59:42,636
Speaker 3: brave that tune. And I very proudly, when I'd got

1155
00:59:42,636 --> 00:59:45,596
Speaker 3: the first stuff, played it to her and said, yeah,

1156
00:59:45,596 --> 00:59:48,356
Speaker 3: look I've got the and she was like, yeah, We've

1157
00:59:48,356 --> 00:59:52,036
Speaker 3: got plenty of songs like that. Billy. I was like, oh, okay,

1158
00:59:52,236 --> 00:59:54,716
Speaker 3: you want me to, and she was frying songs at

1159
00:59:54,716 --> 00:59:59,236
Speaker 3: me that were, you know, totally contrary to people's perception

1160
00:59:59,356 --> 01:00:03,396
Speaker 3: of Woody Guffrey, and it was her generosity and encouragement.

1161
01:00:03,556 --> 01:00:06,316
Speaker 3: That led me to choose songs like Ingrid Bergman, where

1162
01:00:06,356 --> 01:00:08,636
Speaker 3: he talks about making love to the Swedish film star

1163
01:00:08,716 --> 01:00:11,796
Speaker 3: on the slope some Italian volcano, My Flying Saucer where

1164
01:00:11,796 --> 01:00:13,756
Speaker 3: he goes for a ride on a flying saucer. Not

1165
01:00:13,836 --> 01:00:17,716
Speaker 3: things you would think about, would he Gusriye. But to

1166
01:00:17,756 --> 01:00:20,036
Speaker 3: take Woody on board, I mean you mentioned the Grapes

1167
01:00:20,076 --> 01:00:23,316
Speaker 3: of Wroth, the movie Henry Fonder in the Grapes of Wrath.

1168
01:00:23,356 --> 01:00:27,756
Speaker 3: Perhaps in people's mind they associate Woody with that Sepia

1169
01:00:27,836 --> 01:00:31,356
Speaker 3: tone period, but yeah, he was there. He did write

1170
01:00:31,356 --> 01:00:34,196
Speaker 3: songs in there. But he also lived in New York

1171
01:00:34,236 --> 01:00:37,676
Speaker 3: in the forties, so you also have to imagine him

1172
01:00:38,116 --> 01:00:41,356
Speaker 3: in the movie On the Town with Frank Sinatra and

1173
01:00:41,396 --> 01:00:45,396
Speaker 3: Gene Kelly, the two sailors who are chasing women around

1174
01:00:45,396 --> 01:00:48,676
Speaker 3: New York City in nineteen forty in technicolor in full color,

1175
01:00:48,716 --> 01:00:53,276
Speaker 3: which incidentally ends in Coney Island. They chase the girls

1176
01:00:53,356 --> 01:00:56,996
Speaker 3: to the Coney Island funfair. Wood he lived in that world.

1177
01:00:57,356 --> 01:00:59,836
Speaker 3: He wrote many of those songs in that world. That's

1178
01:00:59,876 --> 01:01:03,196
Speaker 3: why Nora chose to call the album Mermad Avenue, because

1179
01:01:03,236 --> 01:01:06,756
Speaker 3: to focus on that world. So we were out to

1180
01:01:06,836 --> 01:01:11,236
Speaker 3: challenge people's perceptions too, as Norris to reboot a father's image,

1181
01:01:11,276 --> 01:01:13,316
Speaker 3: and that's why we kicked off with what Whitman's niece.

1182
01:01:13,996 --> 01:01:17,556
Speaker 3: So nobody would have any preconceptions that we were going

1183
01:01:17,596 --> 01:01:19,756
Speaker 3: to be reverent with the little guy. That's not what

1184
01:01:19,836 --> 01:01:22,796
Speaker 3: Laura asked us to do. She asked us to shake

1185
01:01:22,876 --> 01:01:25,356
Speaker 3: him up. And with regard to it sounding modern, one

1186
01:01:25,396 --> 01:01:28,196
Speaker 3: of the you know, there wasn't many templates for doing

1187
01:01:28,236 --> 01:01:30,716
Speaker 3: a project like that, But Jeff and I, I think

1188
01:01:30,756 --> 01:01:34,636
Speaker 3: at the time Grail Marcus book Invisible Republic had come

1189
01:01:34,636 --> 01:01:37,756
Speaker 3: out about the recording of the Basement Tapes, and I

1190
01:01:37,996 --> 01:01:39,916
Speaker 3: certainly read it. I know Jeff had read it as well,

1191
01:01:41,476 --> 01:01:43,396
Speaker 3: and I said to him, look, you know, we're this

1192
01:01:43,476 --> 01:01:45,756
Speaker 3: is a bit like the Basement Tapes in the sense

1193
01:01:45,796 --> 01:01:47,436
Speaker 3: that I don't know if your listeners are familiar with.

1194
01:01:47,476 --> 01:01:49,276
Speaker 3: Many of the songs in the Basement Tapes were old

1195
01:01:49,316 --> 01:01:52,236
Speaker 3: timey songs. They weren't all Bob Dylan songs that Bob

1196
01:01:52,236 --> 01:01:53,756
Speaker 3: had written. A lot of the songs they played were

1197
01:01:53,796 --> 01:01:56,596
Speaker 3: old folks songs they were messing around with. And I

1198
01:01:56,636 --> 01:01:59,396
Speaker 3: said to Jeff, this is kind of what we're doing

1199
01:01:59,436 --> 01:02:01,836
Speaker 3: we're kind of we're kind of messing around with these

1200
01:02:01,876 --> 01:02:05,956
Speaker 3: old songs. But the thing about the basement tapes, you

1201
01:02:06,076 --> 01:02:08,956
Speaker 3: knew that the although they were playing these old timey songs,

1202
01:02:09,396 --> 01:02:12,396
Speaker 3: the people that were playing them had heard Little Richard,

1203
01:02:13,316 --> 01:02:16,356
Speaker 3: you know, they'd heard rock and roll. They were in

1204
01:02:16,396 --> 01:02:20,676
Speaker 3: that vernacular. So we got to make these records and

1205
01:02:20,676 --> 01:02:22,556
Speaker 3: people have got to know that we have heard the clash.

1206
01:02:23,436 --> 01:02:26,076
Speaker 3: People have got to know that we've heard cheap trick.

1207
01:02:26,156 --> 01:02:29,196
Speaker 3: You know, the Wilkos were big cheap trick fans. I'm like, yeah,

1208
01:02:29,236 --> 01:02:31,156
Speaker 3: bring it on, you know, bring it on. We've got

1209
01:02:31,516 --> 01:02:35,476
Speaker 3: we've got a opportunity here to take these songs and

1210
01:02:36,876 --> 01:02:38,756
Speaker 3: kind of like dress them up anyway. It's like going

1211
01:02:38,756 --> 01:02:40,476
Speaker 3: to the dressing up box every day and who we're

1212
01:02:40,476 --> 01:02:43,196
Speaker 3: going to be today. Let's be Tom Waits today on

1213
01:02:43,316 --> 01:02:48,916
Speaker 3: Meanest Man, you know, let's be Vanilla Fudge, Let's be

1214
01:02:49,156 --> 01:02:52,756
Speaker 3: you know, let's just be weird. Let's just take these

1215
01:02:52,796 --> 01:02:55,036
Speaker 3: songs apart and put them back together again in a

1216
01:02:55,076 --> 01:02:58,796
Speaker 3: different way. And the freedom to do that is why

1217
01:02:58,876 --> 01:03:01,676
Speaker 3: we ended up recording fifty three tracks rather than fifteen tracks,

1218
01:03:01,676 --> 01:03:05,356
Speaker 3: which we were contracted to do, not least because nort We

1219
01:03:05,356 --> 01:03:08,156
Speaker 3: were in Dublin, Nora. We invited Nora over for a

1220
01:03:08,156 --> 01:03:10,556
Speaker 3: holiday for a week. She bought another sheaf of songs

1221
01:03:10,556 --> 01:03:14,676
Speaker 3: and started the old bloody process. Yeah. Yeah, she suddenly

1222
01:03:14,716 --> 01:03:16,796
Speaker 3: turned up with you know, another Man's Done Gone. What

1223
01:03:16,796 --> 01:03:20,156
Speaker 3: an incredible song that is? You know so and it

1224
01:03:20,236 --> 01:03:21,996
Speaker 3: was a joy to do. I mean, I really enjoyed

1225
01:03:21,996 --> 01:03:25,276
Speaker 3: the whole process because hitherto I'd been the guy in

1226
01:03:25,276 --> 01:03:27,996
Speaker 3: the studio where everything had to go through me. We had,

1227
01:03:27,996 --> 01:03:31,316
Speaker 3: you know, every decision, what songs next, how do you

1228
01:03:31,356 --> 01:03:33,516
Speaker 3: want to record it? When are we having a t break?

1229
01:03:33,956 --> 01:03:36,876
Speaker 3: What biscuits are we having? You know everything. Whereas in

1230
01:03:36,916 --> 01:03:39,516
Speaker 3: that process there was it was a you know, a

1231
01:03:39,516 --> 01:03:41,516
Speaker 3: two andre if not a three andder with Jay Bennett

1232
01:03:41,516 --> 01:03:44,836
Speaker 3: as well, between me, Jeff and Jay and the band.

1233
01:03:45,036 --> 01:03:46,676
Speaker 3: You know, we were taking it in turns. It was

1234
01:03:46,876 --> 01:03:47,876
Speaker 3: what we're going to do next?

1235
01:03:48,756 --> 01:03:49,916
Speaker 2: Did it change your rating?

1236
01:03:50,236 --> 01:03:53,236
Speaker 3: After all? It did? Yeah, it did. Because one of

1237
01:03:53,276 --> 01:03:56,396
Speaker 3: the things I realized looking through Woody's work is that,

1238
01:03:56,756 --> 01:03:58,636
Speaker 3: and he said as much in his writings that you know,

1239
01:03:58,676 --> 01:04:00,356
Speaker 3: he never wrote a cynical song in his life. He

1240
01:04:00,396 --> 01:04:02,836
Speaker 3: never wrote a song that put people down. I think

1241
01:04:02,836 --> 01:04:05,636
Speaker 3: that's where I kind of started to understand what a

1242
01:04:06,116 --> 01:04:10,756
Speaker 3: corrosive thing cynicism is. If you know, you know, would

1243
01:04:10,836 --> 01:04:14,516
Speaker 3: famously add on his guitar, this machine kills fascists. If

1244
01:04:14,516 --> 01:04:16,036
Speaker 3: I had to have something written on my guitar, we'll

1245
01:04:16,036 --> 01:04:20,556
Speaker 3: be death to cynicism. And by cynicism, I don't mean skepticism.

1246
01:04:20,596 --> 01:04:22,956
Speaker 3: I think that's healthy, it's helpful. I don't mean doubt.

1247
01:04:23,356 --> 01:04:26,556
Speaker 3: Never trust anyone who has no doubts. I'm talking about

1248
01:04:27,076 --> 01:04:29,516
Speaker 3: those people who've given up and they want you to

1249
01:04:29,516 --> 01:04:31,596
Speaker 3: give up as well, and it makes them feel better about

1250
01:04:31,596 --> 01:04:33,596
Speaker 3: the decision they've made. I've no time for those people,

1251
01:04:33,756 --> 01:04:38,556
Speaker 3: you know. To me, you know, cynicism is what makes

1252
01:04:38,596 --> 01:04:42,476
Speaker 3: you think nothing will ever change. Cynicism is what makes

1253
01:04:42,556 --> 01:04:45,636
Speaker 3: you fear that nobody else cares about this stuff. It's

1254
01:04:45,636 --> 01:04:48,676
Speaker 3: what Fox News want you to believe. And I'm, you know,

1255
01:04:49,196 --> 01:04:56,236
Speaker 3: like Woody, I'm you know, committed to destroying that feeling

1256
01:04:56,276 --> 01:04:58,436
Speaker 3: in people then kicking it to the curve as often

1257
01:04:58,436 --> 01:04:59,956
Speaker 3: as I can not to say that I'm not prone

1258
01:04:59,996 --> 01:05:02,436
Speaker 3: to my own cynicism. How could you not be? The

1259
01:05:02,476 --> 01:05:05,916
Speaker 3: way politics have gone in the last thirty years, But

1260
01:05:06,076 --> 01:05:08,716
Speaker 3: you have to fight it all the time in order

1261
01:05:08,756 --> 01:05:12,476
Speaker 3: to recognize that the glasses half full, and that if

1262
01:05:12,956 --> 01:05:16,276
Speaker 3: ordinary people are given the opportunity to pull the leaves

1263
01:05:16,316 --> 01:05:17,916
Speaker 3: of power, we would live in a better world. You

1264
01:05:17,916 --> 01:05:19,876
Speaker 3: have to believe in people and what they what they do.

1265
01:05:20,396 --> 01:05:22,956
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about two projects you did

1266
01:05:22,996 --> 01:05:25,396
Speaker 2: because it was with one of our favorite people here.

1267
01:05:25,796 --> 01:05:26,636
Speaker 2: It was Joe Henry.

1268
01:05:26,716 --> 01:05:27,316
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

1269
01:05:27,356 --> 01:05:29,036
Speaker 2: And first of all, and this gets to the sense

1270
01:05:29,076 --> 01:05:34,876
Speaker 2: of place, the field recordings. You taped train songs from where.

1271
01:05:34,716 --> 01:05:36,676
Speaker 3: Was the Chicago to Los Angeles?

1272
01:05:36,796 --> 01:05:38,876
Speaker 2: Chicago to Los Angeles new tape. I don't know how

1273
01:05:38,916 --> 01:05:40,796
Speaker 2: many you tape. There's about ten on the record.

1274
01:05:40,876 --> 01:05:43,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think it's what was he?

1275
01:05:43,676 --> 01:05:44,636
Speaker 2: How did that come about?

1276
01:05:45,036 --> 01:05:47,916
Speaker 3: Well, it's a bit convoluted, but I'll try. While I

1277
01:05:47,956 --> 01:05:53,116
Speaker 3: was writing the Skiffle book in Touch by Aperture Photography

1278
01:05:53,196 --> 01:05:56,476
Speaker 3: magazine and they wanted to send me out on the road.

1279
01:05:56,916 --> 01:06:05,596
Speaker 3: It was a the anniversary of The Americans, the photo

1280
01:06:05,676 --> 01:06:06,436
Speaker 3: book by.

1281
01:06:07,796 --> 01:06:08,356
Speaker 2: Robert Frank.

1282
01:06:08,436 --> 01:06:10,076
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for Robert Frank. I'm so bad

1283
01:06:10,076 --> 01:06:12,756
Speaker 3: with names. I do apologize everyone. Robert Frank's great book

1284
01:06:12,796 --> 01:06:16,516
Speaker 3: The Americans, which is amazing photography book. They wanted to

1285
01:06:16,556 --> 01:06:21,236
Speaker 3: send someone out on the road. A photographer out on

1286
01:06:21,276 --> 01:06:27,476
Speaker 3: the road with me, and so I had a chat

1287
01:06:27,516 --> 01:06:29,436
Speaker 3: with him and I said, you know, that's really boring

1288
01:06:29,516 --> 01:06:31,356
Speaker 3: being on the road. Really, I'm just like, you know,

1289
01:06:31,396 --> 01:06:32,796
Speaker 3: I'm in the van and I'm at a gig, And

1290
01:06:33,956 --> 01:06:36,436
Speaker 3: I said, can't we do it? You know, it would

1291
01:06:36,436 --> 01:06:38,436
Speaker 3: be more interested to do a road trip somewhereere I've

1292
01:06:38,476 --> 01:06:43,916
Speaker 3: never been in America. And they said, well, where would

1293
01:06:43,956 --> 01:06:45,476
Speaker 3: you like to go in America that you've never been.

1294
01:06:46,516 --> 01:06:50,036
Speaker 3: I said, I'd like to go to Rock Island, where

1295
01:06:50,036 --> 01:06:52,756
Speaker 3: the Rock Island Line comes from. And the guy said

1296
01:06:52,756 --> 01:06:58,756
Speaker 3: to me, where's that? I said, I don't know. It

1297
01:06:58,876 --> 01:07:04,516
Speaker 3: turns out it's in in the far west of Illinois

1298
01:07:04,636 --> 01:07:12,556
Speaker 3: on the border with Iowa. It's the mississ the Mississippi divides,

1299
01:07:12,596 --> 01:07:16,196
Speaker 3: and it's where they built the first bridge across the Mississippi.

1300
01:07:17,676 --> 01:07:22,516
Speaker 3: So we went there, and we drove down to Arkansas,

1301
01:07:22,596 --> 01:07:26,556
Speaker 3: where the song Rock Island line comes from. And when

1302
01:07:26,596 --> 01:07:28,516
Speaker 3: we went to the railway station there, we wanted to

1303
01:07:28,516 --> 01:07:30,396
Speaker 3: get the midnight train to come in. So we do

1304
01:07:30,436 --> 01:07:32,916
Speaker 3: a photo with the midnight train and it come in

1305
01:07:33,196 --> 01:07:35,676
Speaker 3: and it sat there for forty minutes, just sat there

1306
01:07:36,876 --> 01:07:39,476
Speaker 3: and what's that about and it turns out that there

1307
01:07:39,476 --> 01:07:42,916
Speaker 3: are so few passenger trains outside the Northeast corner that

1308
01:07:45,356 --> 01:07:48,076
Speaker 3: when a passenger train like one a day really on

1309
01:07:48,076 --> 01:07:52,076
Speaker 3: that line through Little Rock where we were, they have

1310
01:07:52,156 --> 01:07:54,196
Speaker 3: to stay in the railway station let the freight train through.

1311
01:07:54,756 --> 01:07:56,836
Speaker 3: They used the railway station almost like a side in.

1312
01:07:58,676 --> 01:08:00,236
Speaker 3: And it turned out I got the schedule, and it

1313
01:08:00,276 --> 01:08:02,756
Speaker 3: turned out it stopped in every big city forty minutes.

1314
01:08:03,476 --> 01:08:05,036
Speaker 3: And it occurred to me that you could use that

1315
01:08:05,076 --> 01:08:06,876
Speaker 3: time to record a song. You get off the train,

1316
01:08:07,236 --> 01:08:12,796
Speaker 3: go into the waiting room, find a suitably acoustic corner,

1317
01:08:13,276 --> 01:08:15,796
Speaker 3: play a train song, jump back on the train, and

1318
01:08:16,356 --> 01:08:18,556
Speaker 3: keep going, play some on the train maybe you know.

1319
01:08:19,516 --> 01:08:23,836
Speaker 3: And so you know, Joe Henry had produced my album

1320
01:08:23,876 --> 01:08:27,036
Speaker 3: before that, Tooth and Nail, and he's a dear friend

1321
01:08:27,076 --> 01:08:29,756
Speaker 3: of mine, Joe, I love him the bits, and I

1322
01:08:29,916 --> 01:08:32,396
Speaker 3: came up with this cockamaney idea and he said, yeah,

1323
01:08:32,556 --> 01:08:35,716
Speaker 3: that would be brilliant. So over the course of three

1324
01:08:35,796 --> 01:08:38,836
Speaker 3: or four days we were on the train, and it

1325
01:08:38,916 --> 01:08:45,076
Speaker 3: was it was a revelation because the train comes through

1326
01:08:45,076 --> 01:08:48,316
Speaker 3: the kind of what was it, iggy pop call at

1327
01:08:48,316 --> 01:08:50,876
Speaker 3: the ripped back sides of the city. Because you're you know,

1328
01:08:50,916 --> 01:08:53,316
Speaker 3: you're you're slowing down to go over the roads. Yeah,

1329
01:08:53,436 --> 01:08:54,956
Speaker 3: you're slowing down to go over the roads. And you're

1330
01:08:54,956 --> 01:08:57,636
Speaker 3: looking in someone's backyard in their parlor. You see them

1331
01:08:57,636 --> 01:08:59,716
Speaker 3: all sitting there having a dinner. It's in America. I

1332
01:08:59,756 --> 01:09:02,556
Speaker 3: certainly never seen. And my compadres who are working with me,

1333
01:09:02,636 --> 01:09:05,076
Speaker 3: Joe and the guy who recorded it and the guys

1334
01:09:05,076 --> 01:09:07,356
Speaker 3: who took some photos and did some filming, they were

1335
01:09:07,356 --> 01:09:09,076
Speaker 3: blown away by this. And they've never been on a

1336
01:09:09,156 --> 01:09:11,836
Speaker 3: training before, I don't think. Really, Yeah, it's really strange.

1337
01:09:12,436 --> 01:09:15,596
Speaker 3: They were like, wow, this is like a completely different

1338
01:09:15,956 --> 01:09:18,476
Speaker 3: you know, it kind of comes down the from Chicago,

1339
01:09:18,516 --> 01:09:22,396
Speaker 3: comes down to San Antonio and then it kind of

1340
01:09:22,396 --> 01:09:25,756
Speaker 3: follows the Rio Grande and uh and then off across

1341
01:09:25,796 --> 01:09:29,756
Speaker 3: Arizona into into Union Station in Los Angeles. And we

1342
01:09:29,876 --> 01:09:31,916
Speaker 3: had the best time in the trains had you know,

1343
01:09:31,916 --> 01:09:35,916
Speaker 3: they have a shower on there. We have a dining

1344
01:09:35,996 --> 01:09:37,796
Speaker 3: car and they always sit here on a table with

1345
01:09:37,916 --> 01:09:40,236
Speaker 3: people that you haven't sat with before, so that that's

1346
01:09:40,276 --> 01:09:42,516
Speaker 3: always someone who and who's on the trains. The people

1347
01:09:42,516 --> 01:09:47,076
Speaker 3: on the trains are either tourists, people who worked on

1348
01:09:47,116 --> 01:09:50,956
Speaker 3: the railways or their father worked on the railways, and

1349
01:09:51,116 --> 01:09:53,916
Speaker 3: people who don't want to show their idea an airport

1350
01:09:54,876 --> 01:09:59,036
Speaker 3: are on trains. So it's a really interesting trip. When

1351
01:09:59,076 --> 01:10:00,956
Speaker 3: you sit down and talk to people at the table,

1352
01:10:01,356 --> 01:10:04,636
Speaker 3: you know, it's what you're doing and we are you know,

1353
01:10:04,636 --> 01:10:06,756
Speaker 3: you learn, We learn a lot.

1354
01:10:07,476 --> 01:10:09,556
Speaker 2: Was it easy to find places in the train stations

1355
01:10:09,556 --> 01:10:11,156
Speaker 2: where you could get good acoustics?

1356
01:10:11,236 --> 01:10:14,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, generally. Yeah. We obviously we told the crew that

1357
01:10:14,196 --> 01:10:16,156
Speaker 3: what we were doing. Well. I had a guy I

1358
01:10:16,196 --> 01:10:18,516
Speaker 3: had a contact at Amtrak who was a musician, really

1359
01:10:18,516 --> 01:10:20,516
Speaker 3: fortunate and he set it up for me. We met

1360
01:10:20,596 --> 01:10:25,316
Speaker 3: him in Union Station in Chicago. So they have all aboard.

1361
01:10:25,316 --> 01:10:26,956
Speaker 3: They have three all the boards. The first all the boards,

1362
01:10:26,996 --> 01:10:28,916
Speaker 3: the general all the board, the second all the board

1363
01:10:28,996 --> 01:10:30,516
Speaker 3: is better, get the board, and then the last all

1364
01:10:30,516 --> 01:10:33,156
Speaker 3: the board is goodbye. So we just had to listen

1365
01:10:33,196 --> 01:10:35,276
Speaker 3: out for the second all the board and make sure

1366
01:10:35,316 --> 01:10:36,956
Speaker 3: we were on our way back to the train so

1367
01:10:36,956 --> 01:10:40,196
Speaker 3: we didn't get left behind. One of the things about

1368
01:10:40,196 --> 01:10:45,476
Speaker 3: Amtrak is their schedule was a bit a bit hit

1369
01:10:45,516 --> 01:10:48,996
Speaker 3: and miss. Yeah. One of the guys English guys said

1370
01:10:48,996 --> 01:10:51,716
Speaker 3: that they got in twenty four hours late to Union

1371
01:10:51,876 --> 01:10:55,476
Speaker 3: and it's only a forty eight hour train journey. They

1372
01:10:55,516 --> 01:10:58,716
Speaker 3: got in a whole day late due to problems with

1373
01:10:58,716 --> 01:11:02,396
Speaker 3: freight trains on the line, and we were do to

1374
01:11:02,436 --> 01:11:09,076
Speaker 3: get into Union Station, Los Angeles at kind of seven am.

1375
01:11:09,116 --> 01:11:11,356
Speaker 3: We've got it at four am, and the one time ever

1376
01:11:11,436 --> 01:11:13,116
Speaker 3: they were early, we got it at four am. But

1377
01:11:13,196 --> 01:11:16,076
Speaker 3: it was cool because we ended up finding nobody about.

1378
01:11:16,076 --> 01:11:18,436
Speaker 3: We found this loveliest space to record our last song,

1379
01:11:18,436 --> 01:11:23,476
Speaker 3: which was Early Morning Rain by Gordon Lightfoot, which compares

1380
01:11:23,556 --> 01:11:28,756
Speaker 3: the jetplane to the railways. A brilliant, brilliant song. And

1381
01:11:28,836 --> 01:11:31,956
Speaker 3: where we sang it was behind us there was a

1382
01:11:31,956 --> 01:11:35,516
Speaker 3: little garden square and as we sang it, the birds

1383
01:11:35,516 --> 01:11:37,076
Speaker 3: began to wake up. They must have heard us, and

1384
01:11:37,116 --> 01:11:39,716
Speaker 3: they started singing, and you can hear them just in

1385
01:11:39,756 --> 01:11:41,956
Speaker 3: the background starting to sing in the bushes behind us

1386
01:11:41,956 --> 01:11:45,156
Speaker 3: as he's starting to get light. It was a brilliant,

1387
01:11:45,156 --> 01:11:49,316
Speaker 3: brilliant experience, and I encourage any of you out there

1388
01:11:49,316 --> 01:11:51,076
Speaker 3: we want to see a different kind of America to

1389
01:11:51,116 --> 01:11:53,396
Speaker 3: take the trip. There's another route to Los Angeles goes

1390
01:11:53,396 --> 01:11:56,116
Speaker 3: through the Rockies, the California Zephyr. We went on the

1391
01:11:56,116 --> 01:12:00,636
Speaker 3: Texas Eagle, but it really is an amazing experience and

1392
01:12:00,716 --> 01:12:03,596
Speaker 3: it's and given the grief you have to go through,

1393
01:12:03,716 --> 01:12:06,556
Speaker 3: to go through airports to get around America. I don't

1394
01:12:06,556 --> 01:12:09,596
Speaker 3: know why there isn't a high speed train link, you know,

1395
01:12:10,396 --> 01:12:14,316
Speaker 3: San Francisco to Los Angeles, a bullet train, you know,

1396
01:12:14,436 --> 01:12:18,756
Speaker 3: as the atmosphere gets more turbulent, the possibility of high

1397
01:12:18,756 --> 01:12:20,676
Speaker 3: speed trains, I think you really should check it out,

1398
01:12:20,676 --> 01:12:23,756
Speaker 3: because the trains that make America. America before the trains

1399
01:12:23,836 --> 01:12:26,796
Speaker 3: is a completely different place to America after the training.

1400
01:12:26,876 --> 01:12:31,076
Speaker 3: Before the train, it was only really feasible to build

1401
01:12:32,196 --> 01:12:36,036
Speaker 3: settlements inland on rivers because you just couldn't get the

1402
01:12:36,036 --> 01:12:39,316
Speaker 3: stuff there was, you know, too many piney woods in

1403
01:12:39,356 --> 01:12:41,956
Speaker 3: the way, you know, so all the big towns and

1404
01:12:41,956 --> 01:12:44,996
Speaker 3: the big cities are all on the great rivers. Once

1405
01:12:45,036 --> 01:12:50,196
Speaker 3: the railway comes, then you know, it opens the whole

1406
01:12:50,236 --> 01:12:54,036
Speaker 3: continent up. And I don't think doing the record and

1407
01:12:54,556 --> 01:12:57,796
Speaker 3: doing the research that went with it, I don't think

1408
01:12:57,836 --> 01:13:02,476
Speaker 3: there's ever been a more transformative technology for humankind than

1409
01:13:02,516 --> 01:13:06,996
Speaker 3: the railroad. The change it brings for thousands of years

1410
01:13:07,036 --> 01:13:08,916
Speaker 3: of nothing being able to go faster than a horse

1411
01:13:08,916 --> 01:13:11,996
Speaker 3: could gallup or ship could sail, suddenly to have something

1412
01:13:12,036 --> 01:13:14,996
Speaker 3: that not could only go at a higher speed, but

1413
01:13:15,076 --> 01:13:20,796
Speaker 3: could connect you directly to anywhere in the continent, so

1414
01:13:20,836 --> 01:13:24,316
Speaker 3: that you could order something from Chicago and it would

1415
01:13:24,396 --> 01:13:27,716
Speaker 3: arrive two or three days later, it would physically be there.

1416
01:13:27,756 --> 01:13:31,476
Speaker 3: It's so much more, I think, so much more revolutionary

1417
01:13:31,476 --> 01:13:33,636
Speaker 3: than the Internet what we've experienced in our lifetimes, which

1418
01:13:33,716 --> 01:13:38,516
Speaker 3: is in itself revolutionary. But you know, Amazon is nothing

1419
01:13:38,556 --> 01:13:42,036
Speaker 3: to the ability of people to order something from a

1420
01:13:42,316 --> 01:13:45,476
Speaker 3: catalog out east and it end up in this tiny

1421
01:13:45,476 --> 01:13:48,876
Speaker 3: little town in wherever, you know, Nevada or whatever, something

1422
01:13:48,916 --> 01:13:51,516
Speaker 3: like that, and also people could get on it. I mean,

1423
01:13:51,556 --> 01:13:54,436
Speaker 3: so many of those those blue songs about the railroad

1424
01:13:54,476 --> 01:13:58,356
Speaker 3: because that was another level of emancipation for African Americans

1425
01:13:58,836 --> 01:14:01,476
Speaker 3: to get to the big cities up north where you

1426
01:14:01,556 --> 01:14:03,836
Speaker 3: weren't constantly you know, there was of course there was

1427
01:14:03,836 --> 01:14:06,396
Speaker 3: still racism. Of course there was still discrimination, but it

1428
01:14:06,396 --> 01:14:12,076
Speaker 3: wasn't the Jim Crow type up there. That emmancipatory nature

1429
01:14:12,076 --> 01:14:14,996
Speaker 3: of the railroads in America was That's why we wanted

1430
01:14:14,996 --> 01:14:16,196
Speaker 3: to take them songs back there.

1431
01:14:16,636 --> 01:14:18,836
Speaker 2: It was also the way people told time back then. Yeah,

1432
01:14:18,876 --> 01:14:21,596
Speaker 2: you knew that was the three or four.

1433
01:14:21,916 --> 01:14:24,356
Speaker 3: In my country. That's when they had to synchronize all

1434
01:14:24,396 --> 01:14:26,876
Speaker 3: the clocks in the country because before and they just

1435
01:14:26,876 --> 01:14:28,596
Speaker 3: did it when it was got darker, when it got light.

1436
01:14:28,876 --> 01:14:31,436
Speaker 3: But once the railroad come, everything had to run on

1437
01:14:31,556 --> 01:14:34,716
Speaker 3: a scheduled timetable. And it's like, it's interesting, you know,

1438
01:14:34,836 --> 01:14:39,716
Speaker 3: if you if you go back to the story that

1439
01:14:39,836 --> 01:14:44,756
Speaker 3: made Charles Dickens the Pickwick Papers, it's about the pre

1440
01:14:44,836 --> 01:14:48,276
Speaker 3: industrial age, you know. It's why we Brits are all

1441
01:14:48,316 --> 01:14:51,076
Speaker 3: obsessed with Jane Austin. It's all going back to that

1442
01:14:51,116 --> 01:14:55,316
Speaker 3: prelapse area period before the Industrial Revolution, before the railroad came,

1443
01:14:55,636 --> 01:14:58,476
Speaker 3: there was this kind of you know, dizzy kind of

1444
01:14:59,316 --> 01:15:02,116
Speaker 3: Garden of Eden vibe with the aristocracy and all that

1445
01:15:02,196 --> 01:15:05,836
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. It's very interesting how the railroad comes

1446
01:15:05,876 --> 01:15:13,396
Speaker 3: to symbolize modernity and any on dynamicism, and particularly in

1447
01:15:13,396 --> 01:15:16,196
Speaker 3: this continent, it changes everything.

1448
01:15:16,716 --> 01:15:20,276
Speaker 2: Well, you woke up the birds in Los Angeles. It's

1449
01:15:20,276 --> 01:15:22,396
Speaker 2: a very woody Guthrie image. I think we should end there.

1450
01:15:22,436 --> 01:15:23,756
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming in well.

1451
01:15:23,676 --> 01:15:25,796
Speaker 3: Pleasure, thank you having I've been great chatting with email.

1452
01:15:28,716 --> 01:15:30,756
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Billy Bragg for stopping off during

1453
01:15:30,756 --> 01:15:33,196
Speaker 1: his tour to chat with Bruce Headlam. Here a playlist

1454
01:15:33,236 --> 01:15:35,316
Speaker 1: of some of our favorite Billy Bragg songs. Visit the

1455
01:15:35,356 --> 01:15:38,356
Speaker 1: link in our show notes or at broken Record podcast

1456
01:15:38,516 --> 01:15:41,436
Speaker 1: dot com, and be sure to follow us on Instagram

1457
01:15:41,476 --> 01:15:44,236
Speaker 1: at the broken Record PI. You can follow us on

1458
01:15:44,236 --> 01:15:47,916
Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced by Leah

1459
01:15:47,996 --> 01:15:51,076
Speaker 1: Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan.

1460
01:15:51,396 --> 01:15:55,076
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Ben Tollivian. Broken Record is a production

1461
01:15:55,236 --> 01:15:58,596
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others

1462
01:15:58,676 --> 01:16:03,076
Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is

1463
01:16:03,076 --> 01:16:06,596
Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and adflete listening

1464
01:16:06,676 --> 01:16:09,716
Speaker 1: for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushing a

1465
01:16:09,716 --> 01:16:13,636
Speaker 1: Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show,

1466
01:16:13,796 --> 01:16:16,276
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your

1467
01:16:16,316 --> 01:16:17,116
Speaker 1: podcast app.

1468
01:16:17,396 --> 01:16:20,076
Speaker 3: Our theme music's back Anny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.