Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies these episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories, done done.
Speaker 1: Hello, Hi, welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.
Speaker 4: I'm Kara Klank, I'm Liza Traeger, and every.
Speaker 2: Week we talk about an episode of SVU, we talk
Speaker 2: about the crime it's based on, and then we have
Speaker 2: a special guest from the episode.
Speaker 4: And today is no exception. It's going to be hot.
Speaker 1: So just to be transparent, we are recording this episode
Speaker 1: a little bit ahead of time because by the time
Speaker 1: you hear this episode, I will have given birth to
Speaker 1: a human being and I have to make sure that
Speaker 1: it can, you know, eat and sleep. And I'm just
Speaker 1: a little busy, So we're just recording this one intro
Speaker 1: a little bit ahead of time.
Speaker 2: How do you feel days before you'll have another baby?
Speaker 2: What are you doing?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just kind of trying to get little
Speaker 1: projects done around the house. Like I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: get things like we're basically said, I mean, we have
Speaker 1: all the stuff we need because we just had another
Speaker 1: kid two years ago, So you know, it's just kind
Speaker 1: of like a sit and wait situation.
Speaker 4: But I am ready to be done. And I'd love
Speaker 4: to be able to just turn over in my sleep
Speaker 4: without help or pain. You know, it would be fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a minimal wish, you know, just
Speaker 2: to not have an alien I don't have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't have big dreams. Are you nervous? Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean I'm sort of.
Speaker 1: Nervous to see how it's different from before, because it's
Speaker 1: like going to be a little bit of a different process.
Speaker 4: They're not doing exactly the same thing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, and like last time, I did
Speaker 1: have some complications, like my epidor did wear off and
Speaker 1: I felt a lot more than I was supposed to feel.
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that now, going in with that knowledge
Speaker 1: of how my body reacts to an epidural, that I
Speaker 1: can that I can avoid that happening.
Speaker 4: They are so stingy with drugs.
Speaker 2: My friend, unfortunately, was just in the hospital with some
Speaker 2: health problems, and they are stingy. They're so scared of
Speaker 2: opioid addiction, and it's like, just give her more drugs.
Speaker 4: She's in pain. It's like you have to convince. It's like,
Speaker 4: my I just gave birth. Give me the drugs. What
Speaker 4: the fuck? I don't know how addictive an epidural is, but.
Speaker 2: You know, can you imagine, like you isn't it a
Speaker 2: giant needles shot? You can't spine? Basically, how did Jared?
Speaker 2: Is he ready to tell you.
Speaker 4: What to do? I think he's ready.
Speaker 1: I think he was a little bit traumatized by the
Speaker 1: first birth, so I think now he's ready for the
Speaker 1: second one because he knows what he's getting into this time.
Speaker 1: But we'll see. But he was traumatized he was the
Speaker 1: first time. I'm more I'm excited to.
Speaker 4: Kind of see how Rosie reacts to the new the
Speaker 4: new roommate. She's gonna beat the shit out of this baby.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: We have a good friend who has two daughters and
Speaker 1: they're Rosie's like best friends. And the youngest one, Fiona,
Speaker 1: is so sweet and Rosie's obsessed with her and talks
Speaker 1: about her all the time. But she thinks that a
Speaker 1: cool way to express her love for Fiona is to
Speaker 1: push her, and she pushes her all the time, and
Speaker 1: she like smiles while she does it, like a full
Speaker 1: serial killer, like she's just like I love Feo.
Speaker 4: And like just pushes her over.
Speaker 1: Like so, I don't know what's going to happen with
Speaker 1: this new baby, but we gotta be on we gotta
Speaker 1: be on alert.
Speaker 2: But you're giving like Rosie a present like it's from
Speaker 2: the baby. Yes, yes, I gotta go buy that tomorrow. Actually,
Speaker 2: what are you going to get her?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm going to go to like a
Speaker 4: toy store.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to this toy store that they
Speaker 1: that those kids all love and see what I see,
Speaker 1: what pops out.
Speaker 2: See what speaks to you? What a little baby inside?
Speaker 2: And you get her sister. What are the things that
Speaker 2: you were most shocked by the first time you gave
Speaker 2: birth that you'll be chill about now, Oh my.
Speaker 1: Gosh, I don't know. I wasn't that like shocked by anything.
Speaker 1: I just had some There were just like a couple
Speaker 1: of little complications, like nothing serious, and I'm just like
Speaker 1: hoping none of that like will happen again.
Speaker 2: But were you still bossy or did you listen to
Speaker 2: the doctor.
Speaker 4: No, no, I listened to the doctor.
Speaker 2: But I boss Jared. I bost Jared around them. Well
Speaker 2: you gotta yeah, he's there to serve.
Speaker 4: Like somebody like I.
Speaker 1: Apparently, Jared said, I was making so many jokes and
Speaker 1: like and that, like not during the push, like afterwards
Speaker 1: when they were like fixing me up, and Jared said
Speaker 1: that at one point one of the doctors was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's hot in here, and I go, Jared'll fan you,
Speaker 1: like I was just offering Jared's like because he was
Speaker 1: fanning me. I was like offering him like my assistant
Speaker 1: to fan people, which is, you know, emasculating, and I
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't have done.
Speaker 4: But it's my day. I'm allowed to do whatever I want.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, once you give birth, I think you can do
Speaker 2: whatever you want. I think it's shocking. It's honestly shocking
Speaker 2: as a whole society that dudes haven't been like, oh damn,
Speaker 2: that sucks.
Speaker 4: Let's be nicer to these ladies and give them daycare
Speaker 4: at work.
Speaker 2: Like I just I really, but I think it's because
Speaker 2: they're jealous, because they know that they're worthless in the
Speaker 2: grand scheme of life. But it is so crazy when
Speaker 2: people are I know someone whose uncle has not changed
Speaker 2: any of his two children's diapers not well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jared was just talking last night to our friends'
Speaker 1: parents being like my parents. He was like my dad
Speaker 1: never did anything to help with the kids, Like he
Speaker 1: barely changed a diaper. He was like, I work, you
Speaker 1: stay at home. I mean, you know, they were it
Speaker 1: was a different dynamic for them. But like, still, I
Speaker 1: just don't.
Speaker 2: Get how that is even a thing that cris Like
Speaker 2: that is proof enough that the patriarch is inherently evil.
Speaker 2: That you see people pushing babies out of their body
Speaker 2: and then feeding them and you're like, why don't we
Speaker 2: hit these women, Like I just don't understand, Like let's
Speaker 2: not pay them and let's treat them like shit, and
Speaker 2: then you guys need to like sweep Also, it's just
Speaker 2: it's just wild. Yeah, but yeah, instead of being like
Speaker 2: what can I do for you? Totally, So that's just
Speaker 2: my thoughts on what I think about a thing I'll
Speaker 2: never do.
Speaker 1: Just to really quickly change the subject, I'm not I
Speaker 1: think you saw this in our inbox, but we've got
Speaker 1: a very very interesting.
Speaker 4: Detailed, amazing message. You know.
Speaker 2: We actually both responded at the same time, which is
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things is when we're both on
Speaker 2: the Instagram and responding at the same time.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, A former Felon wrote to us probably like four
Speaker 2: or five paragraphs with information on where white Jews would
Speaker 2: land in, which gang we would land in in prison.
Speaker 4: Yes, if you'll remember a couple episodes back.
Speaker 1: We were talking about how we were nervous that we
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to we wouldn't be able to fall
Speaker 1: in with the Aryan nation.
Speaker 4: So like, who what you know?
Speaker 1: Where did Jewish women or Jewish people go in prison gangs?
Speaker 1: And he gave us a very very interesting.
Speaker 4: Take on it.
Speaker 1: Let me see, he said, generally the groups would accept
Speaker 1: Jewish people so long as they pass as white. The
Speaker 1: more ethnic you look, the more you'd have to join
Speaker 1: the others, which is essentially anyone non white black Latino.
Speaker 1: And my adventures through the system, this person usually rolls
Speaker 1: with blacks as brothers and others, as we're usually outnumbered
Speaker 1: by the whites Latinos, at least here in southern California.
Speaker 1: I love this guy. He's like giving us the full
Speaker 1: fucking breakdown.
Speaker 4: It's so great.
Speaker 1: And he said he did know two self hating Jews
Speaker 1: who went full fledged neo Nazi and got the eight
Speaker 1: eight tattoos, like what we were talking about in that
Speaker 1: episode that was from fault that the two older brothers
Speaker 1: were in jail and the one guy had the eight
Speaker 1: eight on his hand because he was like, I got
Speaker 1: to fit in somewhere right.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: I have to mention that the Whites or Woods as
Speaker 1: they go by, aren't inherently racist. So the whole Arian
Speaker 1: brotherhood thing is kind of overblown, as most of the
Speaker 1: Woods only join because it's prison and it's racially divided,
Speaker 1: and like, you basically have to do what you have
Speaker 1: to do. And he said, so you guys can easily
Speaker 1: roll with the Woods if you wanted to, but with
Speaker 1: Liza's Rusky roots, it could pose issues as some of
Speaker 1: the Woods, especially older ones, do feel some way about
Speaker 1: the former Soviet Union. But Liza, I feel like you
Speaker 1: could keep that under wraps whatever. No, because my legal
Speaker 1: I would say Yelsavieta. They would know what's up. It's
Speaker 1: not like I would be able to hide my Russian name.
Speaker 2: I would rather be with the brothers and others because
Speaker 2: that sounds more fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Anyway, thank you to Johnny R. For
Speaker 1: writing into us. We really appreciate you taking the time
Speaker 1: to educate us on the whole system and how we
Speaker 1: would be you know who we would fit in with
Speaker 1: on the inside. Now, before I forget, we have two
Speaker 1: quick plugs before we get started. We are doing a
Speaker 1: live zoom show. It's finally happening. We're going to do
Speaker 1: it in June. We're still locking down dates and details,
Speaker 1: but it's going to be amazing. So just keep your
Speaker 1: eyes peeled on our socials where we will be blasting
Speaker 1: out the ticket link any moment now. And also a
Speaker 1: little extra special treat for you this week, Lisa and
Speaker 1: I are both on Megan Gaily and naomiic Peagan's lifetime
Speaker 1: movie podcast called I Love a Lifetime Movie. Our episode
Speaker 1: is out now. We watch a movie that's based on
Speaker 1: a true crime. It's very it's that's messed up vibes,
Speaker 1: but on a different podcast, so check it out wherever
Speaker 1: you get your pods. Now, we got to get going
Speaker 1: into today's episode because we have such a phenomenal guest
Speaker 1: that we like the interview as long, and this whole
Speaker 1: episode is chock full of goodness, so we need to
Speaker 1: just jump right in.
Speaker 4: So let's get going.
Speaker 1: All right, And now we're going to hop on into Execution,
Speaker 1: which is season three, episode fifteen.
Speaker 4: This episode is different from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say I will be transparent upfront with
Speaker 2: our listeners.
Speaker 4: I don't like these types of episodes one of my
Speaker 4: least favorites. I hate it so much.
Speaker 2: Anytime they're just like doing long interviews to dig up
Speaker 2: something later or evidence.
Speaker 4: I hate it.
Speaker 1: She's thinking, like like the Brian Denahey episode. Like the
Speaker 1: episodes where it's just like someone's about to die or
Speaker 1: get executed and we have this amount of time to
Speaker 1: find out the information, like when there's like a countdown.
Speaker 4: Not for Lisa. I like it when they mix it
Speaker 4: up a little bit.
Speaker 1: Like someone was asking us recently, like, what do you
Speaker 1: think about that episode that they just did on the
Speaker 1: current season where there were three different cases running simultaneously.
Speaker 4: I kind of think that's cool.
Speaker 1: I don't want to see that every week, But I
Speaker 1: like it a little bit, you know, like to mix
Speaker 1: it up.
Speaker 4: I hate it.
Speaker 2: I will even in a hotel on USA, I might
Speaker 2: skip JK new I would watch it.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let me take you through this episode
Speaker 1: and hopefully my delightful retelling will change your mind. So
Speaker 1: we open on a convict in a cell being questioned
Speaker 1: by doctor George Wang. This is a loong, heavy episode
Speaker 1: and we love it. A Chiron tells us that it's
Speaker 1: two hours to execution, so like we said, a sort
Speaker 1: of countdown episode.
Speaker 4: I didn't know the word chiron, you know.
Speaker 1: I said that in front of our friend Laura the
Speaker 1: other day and she was like, oh, what is that
Speaker 1: an industry term? Yeah, it's just basically when there's words
Speaker 1: on the screen.
Speaker 4: Cool. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This guy who's in jail is a serial killer named
Speaker 1: Matthew Brotus, who is being played by an actor named
Speaker 1: Nick Chinlund. Who it is, I guess commonly known screen
Speaker 1: tested for the role of Elliott's tabler.
Speaker 2: Well, and he's also in one of my top favorite
Speaker 2: movies of all time, con Air.
Speaker 4: It's literally in my notes. Oh wow.
Speaker 1: Literally the next thing I was gonna say is he's
Speaker 1: also in con Air, which I've never seen.
Speaker 4: But Lisa Love, I can't believe you haven't.
Speaker 2: Sign We'll do it on the projector dude, it is.
Speaker 2: It is so perfect, star studded, violent and funny.
Speaker 4: It's awesome. It's funny.
Speaker 2: Okay, Dave Chappelle's in it. What John Malkovich, we got.
Speaker 4: A look like it. I didn't know any of this. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's so good. Okay, okay, okay, I'm in. I'm in.
Speaker 4: So this guy is like super creepy.
Speaker 1: He's like staring straight ahead like peace eye contact with
Speaker 1: okay again. Lisa A Stan of Richard Ramirez also here
Speaker 1: to tell you that this creepy fucking guy is hot.
Speaker 7: He is.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure the actor. The actor is like
Speaker 1: a handsome man, but he's very creepy here, like just
Speaker 1: looking straight ahead and like talking. It's very silence of
Speaker 1: the Lambs, like this is this whole interview is very
Speaker 1: Clarice Starling interviewing Hannibal Lecter in my opinion, like Huang
Speaker 1: asks about his first time, and the guy just like
Speaker 1: he's like, what about your first time? And Huang's like, like,
Speaker 1: I remember it fondly. And then he asked He's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to Stabler, and
Speaker 1: Stabler's like fondly, and then they have this whole conversation
Speaker 1: where he's like, no, like tell me more, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I thought it was painful for the girl. I thought
Speaker 1: I did something wrong. And the guy's like he's he's
Speaker 1: basically like intuiting things about Stabler without knowing anything. The
Speaker 1: same way Hannibal Lecter does. Like that's how smart Hannibal
Speaker 1: Lecter was that he could like just by the way
Speaker 1: that you wear your hair, he can tell that you
Speaker 1: went to this kind of high school and you were
Speaker 1: this kind of girl or whatever. Like he's just like,
Speaker 1: so that's what he's doing. And he literally says something
Speaker 1: about Stabler's sweaty fumblings. And there's a full monologue that
Speaker 1: Hannibal Doctor does where he goes those sticky fumblings in
Speaker 1: the back seats of cars make you want to go back,
Speaker 1: get anywhere, get all the way to the FBI.
Speaker 4: Do you know Silence of the Lambs really kind of creepy?
Speaker 1: How much I know Silence of the Lambs? It is
Speaker 1: actually a weird thing about me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know so much about it. But also these
Speaker 2: people would be great fortune tellers if they didn't want
Speaker 2: to be murderers.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's exactly, it's like a lot of
Speaker 1: I think reading, like an eye twitch, reading like facial
Speaker 1: expressions and stuff like that that helps you.
Speaker 4: Get in there.
Speaker 1: I don't really buy this guy as as he's not
Speaker 1: like as erudite and like seemingly like intelligent as a
Speaker 1: Hannibal Elector.
Speaker 4: But you know this is what he's doing.
Speaker 1: He's he's acts like he's the smartest guy in the room,
Speaker 1: which I think a lot of serial killers do do.
Speaker 4: And he's like, you just said do do do do? Yeah.
Speaker 1: He tells Sabler like, you're exactly like me, and then
Speaker 1: he tells Huang like you're not liked.
Speaker 4: And then Huang goes in on this sky. He's like,
Speaker 4: your first time was terrible. You couldn't get it up.
Speaker 1: You were like inept like, and he's really going after
Speaker 1: the guy and this guy like this is really creepy.
Speaker 1: This guy is referring to his victims as thing like
Speaker 1: I had this one thing once and it was so sweet.
Speaker 1: Like he's calling them it and thing like it's disgusting,
Speaker 1: and he describes raping and killing one of his victims
Speaker 1: and Huang can kind of sense this guy's about to explode,
Speaker 1: and he's like, Elliott, get up from the table. And
Speaker 1: then this guy just like Smasheshang's head against the wall.
Speaker 4: Twang like slides.
Speaker 1: Down unconscious, and we end on him and Stabler like
Speaker 1: in a full like Greco Roman wrestling hold, and that's
Speaker 1: how we leave the cold open.
Speaker 4: I don't know how you can't like this episode.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is pretty fucking I do like this
Speaker 2: is very real Housewives. I do like when they show
Speaker 2: us the wild that's about to happen, and then they
Speaker 2: go back three weeks prior, right, So now I like
Speaker 2: seeing Huang doing some physical movements, like I like some
Speaker 2: what is it stunts?
Speaker 4: I like seeing him in a stunt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like Huang in on the action is not
Speaker 1: something we see a lot of. So now at the
Speaker 1: top of act one, we're three days before the execution,
Speaker 1: and so we've gone back in time and at the precinct,
Speaker 1: Elliott is approached by Alan and Hannah Cooper. These are
Speaker 1: parents of a girl named Debbie who was murdered eleven
Speaker 1: years ago. Her killer was never caught, and Elliot's like,
Speaker 1: of course, I remember the case. This girl was abducted
Speaker 1: on her way home from school and his partner, Dave Rossetti,
Speaker 1: worked the case.
Speaker 4: And the Coopers are like, yeah, we heard he died.
Speaker 4: We're sorry.
Speaker 1: And then that's why the Coopers are coming to Elliott,
Speaker 1: because the partner is no longer alive, and they're like,
Speaker 1: we know who killed our little girl. It's Matthew Brotis
Speaker 1: the psycho who's about to be executed in three days,
Speaker 1: and they basically explained They're like, we had come to
Speaker 1: terms with like never knowing who killed our daughter, but
Speaker 1: then we saw his press conference. I'm sorry, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize we were giving serial killers press conferences. Can we
Speaker 1: YouTube some serial killer press conferences?
Speaker 4: I mean, like, I just was confused about this.
Speaker 1: There's a couple wild holes in this episode that I
Speaker 1: will discuss. One is, a serial killer gets a press
Speaker 1: conference where he said that he wants to sell tickets
Speaker 1: to his execution to raise money for his daughter's education,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't have any kids. And then the school
Speaker 1: he mentions is Our Lady of Light, which is the
Speaker 1: school that their daughter.
Speaker 4: Debbie went to.
Speaker 1: So he's like trolling them via this press conference. Elliott
Speaker 1: like goes to Kragan and is like, this matches.
Speaker 4: This all matches. Craigan's like, why didn't the computer match it?
Speaker 1: Like, and He's like it was pre ViCAP, which they
Speaker 1: talk about ViCAP a lot on the show. If you
Speaker 1: haven't If you don't know, it's Violent Criminal Apprehension Program,
Speaker 1: which is like a national database of crimes and.
Speaker 4: Criminals used by the FBI.
Speaker 1: To like, you know, match signature emos and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So this guy we should mention Brotus is in jail
Speaker 1: in New Jersey. That's where he's about to be executed.
Speaker 1: So now there's like a whole NJ New York like
Speaker 1: thing where. And you know how it is with New
Speaker 1: York and New Jersey. I feel like there's always a
Speaker 1: little bit of a rivalry.
Speaker 4: Sure, but New Jersey knows their worst, yes, like you can't.
Speaker 4: How can they not? They're going to be in a
Speaker 4: rivalry with New York.
Speaker 2: Like your name better be Tokyo or London, New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Right, So okay, So Craigan says, New Jersey's not gonna
Speaker 1: let us near this hump. I thought hump was like
Speaker 1: a name for a criminal. I extensively googled the word
Speaker 1: hump last night. You know, I got some interesting thing
Speaker 1: results because I remember in Silence of the Lambs, which
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring up again, I remember them talking
Speaker 1: about Buffalo Bill and going, oh, he skins his humps,
Speaker 1: like that was a thing they said.
Speaker 4: But I think that what they're actually saying is like
Speaker 4: he skins women that.
Speaker 1: He sexually assaults or whatever, which is a gross way
Speaker 1: to refer to it. But it also hump means like
Speaker 1: an idiot or something, so I think that's Craigan says
Speaker 1: the word hump all the time.
Speaker 4: Have you heard it before? No, he does.
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know this hump like, so I
Speaker 1: think he's talking about like an idiot. I thought it
Speaker 1: had more legal if you are like a legal person
Speaker 1: and there's like a legal definition behind hump.
Speaker 2: Please Instagram. It's slang. I don't know if it's in
Speaker 2: the law books.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, but you know, like the way the way
Speaker 1: that you say purp or like whatever.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I think I feel like there is some kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So Craigan is like nude or he's not gonna let
Speaker 1: us near him, and he probably wondn't.
Speaker 4: Even talk to us.
Speaker 1: This serial killer, and Huang's like, a ah, this guy
Speaker 1: is a different kind of serial killer like most. I
Speaker 1: thought this was interesting and I'm sure that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of research that goes into this. They're like most
Speaker 1: serial killers tend to kill their victims immediately and then
Speaker 1: take their.
Speaker 4: Time with the bodies.
Speaker 1: Like I think that's what Bundy did. That's what a
Speaker 1: lot of guys did. Brotus is different, like he kept
Speaker 1: them around for a long time to torture them, like
Speaker 1: he needs an audience he likes sort of that he
Speaker 1: likes the reactions, so they think Wong thinks he actually
Speaker 1: would be.
Speaker 2: Likely to talk, and they're all really like skeptical of
Speaker 2: Wang in this episode. Yeah, it's annoy and they're just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, and it's like he's in
Speaker 2: the FBI and smart, can you just listen to him?
Speaker 1: This is definitely an arc, the beginning of the Huang
Speaker 1: arc where they're trying where he has to like prove
Speaker 1: himself to the NYPD, which is crazy because he's obviously
Speaker 1: very qualified and good at his job and in the FBI. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you'll well, we'll get to it later. But there's
Speaker 1: another comment about the FBI that I was confused about.
Speaker 1: So a lot of details about Debbie's death match the
Speaker 1: New Jersey victims, except that he blinded this victim and
Speaker 1: Wang said that's symbolic because he was never going to
Speaker 1: let her live anyway, so she must have known him,
Speaker 1: and Stabler says, yeah, that's what my partner Rosetti always said,
Speaker 1: Like it's somebody that she knew this guy, but they
Speaker 1: could never find him. So Wang explains that Brotus is
Speaker 1: a multi victim signature killer, which is very rare.
Speaker 4: He might be able to get Do we not see
Speaker 4: Benson at all? We do later.
Speaker 1: I was like, She's like she must have had like
Speaker 1: shit to do. She's in this episode for five minutes.
Speaker 1: So Huang says, because he's such a rare kind of killer,
Speaker 1: maybe I can get a field interview and like and
Speaker 1: even though like, even though that FBI can't like force
Speaker 1: New Jersey to cooperate, He's like, maybe like the brass
Speaker 1: can grease the wheel and I can get in there
Speaker 1: with this guy. We also find out that Elliott's former partner, Rosetti,
Speaker 1: who worked on this case, took his own life over
Speaker 1: this case, so that's kind of what they where the
Speaker 1: steaks are that. Elliot's like, I got to clear this
Speaker 1: for my not only these parents, but also my partner,
Speaker 1: who like.
Speaker 2: Oh selfish, yes, no, I get it. Make this murder
Speaker 2: about you. So Craigan's like, all right, you've got seventy
Speaker 2: two hours now. Munch brings the evidence, a bunch of
Speaker 2: evidence from Debbie's case to the extremely hot CSU tech
Speaker 2: Bert Trevor played by Daniel Sunjada who also plays super
Speaker 2: hot Navy guy in Sex and the City and James
Speaker 2: Holt in Devilware's Prada.
Speaker 4: Yeah, two huge roles.
Speaker 2: We followed his career. I've followed it pretty closely. He's
Speaker 2: always on the USA network. He's extremely hot.
Speaker 4: Yes, he was on a USA Yeah, like a bunch
Speaker 4: of sea. We put him on Instagram.
Speaker 2: We do grids and everyone votes on stuff, and we
Speaker 2: put him on the hotty List.
Speaker 4: Not one answer for him.
Speaker 1: I think just because he's not as well known, people
Speaker 1: are picking their faves, they're picking their little guys of things.
Speaker 4: I was just shocked. He's really hot.
Speaker 1: Well, he's been in I think I counted fifteen episodes
Speaker 1: of S Few.
Speaker 4: He was in seasons like three, four, and five.
Speaker 2: My favorites when he asked there's like a broken bottle
Speaker 2: and he has to put it back together to try
Speaker 2: to find a fingerprint.
Speaker 4: That's my favorite moment of.
Speaker 1: His very talented, very talented, tech, hot, hot hot ass man.
Speaker 1: So basically, Hi, They're like, they give this guy the
Speaker 1: evidence and they're like, find us something. We got to
Speaker 1: tie something to brotus or like this case is going
Speaker 1: to be open forever. Now we're at Lady of Light
Speaker 1: trying to track down teachers who knew Debbie. There was
Speaker 1: only a couple of teachers that gave a shit about Debbie,
Speaker 1: I guess. And like one is out sick and the
Speaker 1: other is named Vivian Parish, and she has moved to
Speaker 1: like like another part of the country and no one
Speaker 1: knows where she is. The principle gives them the name
Speaker 1: of a plumbing company, because I should mention that Brotus
Speaker 1: is a plumber's assistant apprentice. A plumber's apprentice, I mean
Speaker 1: apprentice always makes me feel like it's like a magician's
Speaker 1: apprentice with like its own little hat and the like cauldron.
Speaker 4: But I always think tattoos first.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, see different, I guess different industries have apprentices.
Speaker 4: So he's a plumber's apprentice.
Speaker 1: And they basically there was a plumbing job of a
Speaker 1: boiler replacement going on at the school at the time
Speaker 1: of Debbie's murder.
Speaker 4: So they go to this plumbing place. It sort of
Speaker 4: doesn't really go anywhere.
Speaker 1: They go to this guy, this plumbing company. This guy
Speaker 1: has meticulous records. I'm very horny for how organized he is.
Speaker 1: He's like he's got like a full ledger of every
Speaker 1: guy that's worked for him, all the apprentices, and he's like, you.
Speaker 4: Think I had this psycho working for me. I didn't. Whatever.
Speaker 1: So then as they leave this plumbing place, it's Munch
Speaker 1: and Stable or they have this weird exchange where Munch
Speaker 1: is like good news from the Feds, more like bend over,
Speaker 1: we're taking over your case. And Stablers like John Times
Speaker 1: have changed. They're not the lying bastards they used to be.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I need to read a book about
Speaker 1: the FBI or something. I didn't know the FBI used
Speaker 1: to be a bunch of lying bastards and then got better.
Speaker 2: Well, this is also like I think black people have
Speaker 2: hated the FBI for a long time, right, I think
Speaker 2: they've killed some leaders. I think they they did some murders. Yeah,
Speaker 2: for sure, they did some stage murderers. So like, I
Speaker 2: know that like much should definitely not trust them. That's
Speaker 2: in line with.
Speaker 4: His right, that's true.
Speaker 1: But it's just funny that Stabler's like they're better, the
Speaker 1: FBI is cool now.
Speaker 2: And the cops are just jealous. They want who joins
Speaker 2: the force that doesn't want to be in the FBI.
Speaker 4: There's an amazing South.
Speaker 2: Park episode a few seasons ago where like the governments
Speaker 2: try to trap these like white and cells, but they
Speaker 2: trick them into being like, we need you to save
Speaker 2: this mission, and every guy's like, of course, the government
Speaker 2: needs my help. Like, so they're able to trap all
Speaker 2: these guys because they all believe that.
Speaker 1: They could be CIA masters, so that they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the star of their own action thriller. So now we're
Speaker 1: at a hot dog stand with Wong, no time for lunch.
Speaker 1: They're doing indirect personality assessments, which they refer to as
Speaker 1: IPAs with Brotus's cellmates.
Speaker 4: So Brotos has two former cell mates.
Speaker 1: One is named Robert Rule, he's in jail for life
Speaker 1: for rape and manslaughter, and then Leroy Russell is on
Speaker 1: death row for killing a kid in a convenience to
Speaker 1: a robbery. He has converted to Islam. Now he's a
Speaker 1: model no, but refuses to talk to the FEDS. So
Speaker 1: the whole point of these IPAs our background, get his likes,
Speaker 1: get his dislikes, ways to relate to him. And of
Speaker 1: course Stabler thinks he knows everything. He's like, I've dealt
Speaker 1: with serial killers, and Huong keeps being like, this guy
Speaker 1: is different. Like those guys that you've dealt with have
Speaker 1: only hunted for short periods of time. This guy was
Speaker 1: doing it for years undetected, like Dahmer, Lucas and Bundy.
Speaker 1: I didn't know who Lucas was, so I looked him up.
Speaker 1: Henry Le Lucas, who is the associate of Otis Toole,
Speaker 1: who comes up later in the episode, who I guess
Speaker 1: was working for decades before he was caught.
Speaker 4: He was.
Speaker 2: He's also famous because he kept lying. He kept confessing
Speaker 2: to crimes he didn't do, right. So he yeah, so,
Speaker 2: which I find silly. It's like faking credits. I don't know.
Speaker 2: So they just fucked with a lot of investigations because
Speaker 2: they confessed to all these crimes they didn't commit, right.
Speaker 2: But this is wild to think about, and we'll get
Speaker 2: into it with the real crime. But it is wild
Speaker 2: to think about how many serial killers are just out
Speaker 2: and about and you don't know how long they're planning
Speaker 2: each kill.
Speaker 4: Like it. It is creepy. Yeah, it's creepy to think, no,
Speaker 4: for sure, And.
Speaker 1: That's like the kind of guy this guy is. So
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, it takes years for killers like this
Speaker 1: to relax their guard, and of course they get more
Speaker 1: pliable the closer you get to their execution date. But
Speaker 1: you also have to remember that, like this is a
Speaker 1: game and Brotus is holding all the cards is basically
Speaker 1: what Huong tells him. So now we're talking to Robert Rule,
Speaker 1: one of the first excelmates, and this is Turtle from
Speaker 1: Sex and the City. This is the guy that was
Speaker 1: the Turtle that Samantha gave.
Speaker 4: A makeover to, who loved mushrooms. Yeah, oh yeah, who
Speaker 4: liked mushrooms. He's like, these are Porkuccini's.
Speaker 1: I don't know that porcini pcheese and he had bad breath,
Speaker 1: and like she.
Speaker 4: Turned him around. She has she bought him helmet lang.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he wants a deal and Huong's like, no deal,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to like make you a deal, and
Speaker 1: so they walk out of the interviews. Stabler's pissed and
Speaker 1: Huang's like, Rule doesn't have shit, Like Brotoses wouldn't have
Speaker 1: trusted a guy like this.
Speaker 4: He would have thought this guy was beneath him.
Speaker 1: He never would have opened up to him. And Stable's like,
Speaker 1: you don't get up from the table till you have
Speaker 1: seen everybody's hand. And then Huong's like, just FYI, the
Speaker 1: FBI is running these interviews and I'm not offering any deals,
Speaker 1: and he kind of like puts Stabler in his place.
Speaker 4: Which I like to see. You love to see it.
Speaker 1: So now we're in Cabot's office and Stabler is like,
Speaker 1: come on, help me out. Let's do something like file
Speaker 1: a temporary stay. And she's like, we need evidence to
Speaker 1: link bro Us to this victim. I can't just like
Speaker 1: stop an execution. New Jersey's not going to let it happen.
Speaker 1: She's like, let me go to New Jersey and ask
Speaker 1: an old friend for a favor. So we're an hour
Speaker 1: in New Jersey and we meet executive Ada Alan Messinger.
Speaker 1: Messenger Messinger played by Ty Burrell aka Phil Dunfie from
Speaker 1: Modern Family in a very different role. He's like shutting
Speaker 1: her down. He's like, I'm in the home stretch of
Speaker 1: this execution. I can't afford any fuck ups. So you're
Speaker 1: not like and she's trying to say, I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to sabotage your execution, and he goes, you thought ancient
Speaker 1: history would get you a seat at the table, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, we can assume the two have fucked, right yeaheah, Okay.
Speaker 1: So he's like, you're good, Alex, not spectacular, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: check yourself, Alex Cabot is spectacular right in my mind.
Speaker 2: Yes, she's also in New York. Yeah, she's better than
Speaker 2: you already.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I was like, you watch your goddamn Mouthfield Dumpy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: When people are like people in New York think they're
Speaker 2: better than everyone, I go, yeah.
Speaker 4: Have you been there? Of course they are.
Speaker 1: He also references Henry ly Lucas and Bundy and was like,
Speaker 1: these guys will say anything to stay their executions. And
Speaker 1: he's like, no one gets access periods. He's like shutting
Speaker 1: Cabot down. Back at the lab, there was not enough blood.
Speaker 1: The fibers are consistent with a Plumber uniform, the tape
Speaker 1: is consistent with the other victims.
Speaker 4: Nothing is a smoking gun.
Speaker 1: They could maybe compare the fibers to New Jersey, but
Speaker 1: those are going to be hard to get. So basically,
Speaker 1: the lab has given us like a smidge of hope.
Speaker 4: But not not anything huge.
Speaker 1: Now in Cabot's office, Stabler is asking Cabot he's basically
Speaker 1: trying to go around Huang to offer a deal to Rule,
Speaker 1: the guy who is in jail and wanted the deal,
Speaker 1: and she's like, I'm not doing that. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: can't give a deal to this guy who's got life, basically,
Speaker 1: and Elliott is pushing it really hard. He's just like,
Speaker 1: this guy has twelve victims, he kept them all alive,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and he basically is playing two Cabot's
Speaker 1: emotional side. He's like, come on, like, we really need
Speaker 1: this for these people, Like how many times have you
Speaker 1: had a case where you'd have to tell the victims
Speaker 1: you have no information for them.
Speaker 4: This is your chance to like redo it basically.
Speaker 1: Okay, So now it's two days before the execution, Cabot
Speaker 1: has come through and Elliott has figured out a way
Speaker 1: to talk to Rule without Huang there.
Speaker 4: Stabler is offering a change of venue.
Speaker 1: That he can move to different prison, to the Dan
Speaker 1: Barry Federal Prison, which you assume is nicer than wrikers.
Speaker 4: I guess.
Speaker 1: Rule gives Elliott the sob story about his daughter. He's like,
Speaker 1: I just want you to call her and find out
Speaker 1: how she's doing. I'm not going to talk unless you
Speaker 1: call my daughter. Elliott uses his cell phone, calls this
Speaker 1: number that this criminal has given him and says, hi,
Speaker 1: I'm calling on behalf of Robert Rule. When the woman
Speaker 1: picks up the phone and then immediately Robert Rule starts
Speaker 1: screaming I miss you so much, and then she hangs
Speaker 1: up the phone. So not a great phone call. And
Speaker 1: obviously he did his part, and Elliott got nothing from
Speaker 1: Robert Rule. He's like he had nothing, only stuff he'd
Speaker 1: like read in the newspapers. So it was like Kwang
Speaker 1: was right, dude. Now back at our Lady of Light,
Speaker 1: the school, munch meets with one of Debbie's old teachers,
Speaker 1: Andrea Mason, who knew Debbie. She has like no information
Speaker 1: and is like too cheerful talking about it. She's like,
Speaker 1: I think it's great you guys are trying to find
Speaker 1: her killer. I'm like, you don't remember a lot of
Speaker 1: information about a girl who was horrifically brutally murdered ten
Speaker 1: years ago. Like she's like a lot of kids come
Speaker 1: in and out of this school. I'm like, but this
Speaker 1: one is pretty special. Like it's just like she's it's
Speaker 1: a weird performance. I'll just say that and then Elliott
Speaker 1: is basically talking to Huang and he's like, yeah, Rule
Speaker 1: gave us nothing, and Huang like, one of these days
Speaker 1: you're gonna realize I know what I'm doing. And then
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Sbew shows up looking for Stabler. Turns out that
Speaker 1: that number that Stabler had called was one of Rule's
Speaker 1: rape victims, and they're pissed that he has gone and
Speaker 1: like traumatize this woman. So what I want to know
Speaker 1: is like did the daughter exist? Like who's the daughter?
Speaker 2: He's a liar, he's a criminal, and Elliot's a fucking idiot.
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck, bro, You're just you go against everyone.
Speaker 2: You're just so selfish and now you've re traumatized a victim.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he gets in trouble for that. He has
Speaker 4: to apologize.
Speaker 1: Craigan is like lecturing him for being a dumb ass,
Speaker 1: and he's like, I already called and apologized, and Craigan's like,
Speaker 1: all smooth things over, which seems like Craigan's whole life
Speaker 1: is smoothing over things that Elliott Stabler has done incorrectly.
Speaker 1: At the precinct, we finally see Benson and Finn. Benson
Speaker 1: has her short thought she was gonna get fired for
Speaker 1: it haircut, and they're all shitting on Finn for not
Speaker 1: getting his weapon recertified and they're like, your weapon went
Speaker 1: off too soon or whatever, and it's like there's a
Speaker 1: pill for that. It's like a fun little viagra moment
Speaker 1: from two thousand and two when this episode a hair Now,
Speaker 1: Stabler is like having a hard time figuring out how
Speaker 1: to get in with Leroy Russell, the other cellmate, because
Speaker 1: he is like converted to Islam and like't won't talk
Speaker 1: to the Feds, and Finn knows, of course, a ton
Speaker 1: about Islam, and it's like, say, he's got a blood debt.
Speaker 1: Like in the Quran it says he took a life,
Speaker 1: so he owes a debt for spilling blood. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of basically what the angle that Stabler goes after
Speaker 1: is he goes to appeal to the father of the
Speaker 1: murdered kid and says, can you like it's so sad.
Speaker 1: He goes to his house and the guy has like
Speaker 1: a shrine to his son who was.
Speaker 2: Killed against Stabler being an idiot here going this will
Speaker 2: He's like, I don't mean to open up your wounds
Speaker 2: and the dad's like, yeah, when your kid gets murdered.
Speaker 2: Your wounds don't just heal? Yeah, fucking numb nunt right.
Speaker 2: I'm anti Stabler. I am loving this episode though your
Speaker 2: retelling is good.
Speaker 1: He says to the father of this kid who was
Speaker 1: killed by Leroy Russell, I know you spoke out at
Speaker 1: his sentencing opposing the death penalty, so I feel like
Speaker 1: you could find it in your heart to speak to
Speaker 1: him to try to help us get closure for another family.
Speaker 1: And the guy seems a little bit pissed, but eventually
Speaker 1: he does do it.
Speaker 4: He shows the dad.
Speaker 1: A picture of Debbie and that kind of you know,
Speaker 1: softens him up. So now they're at Dana Mora another
Speaker 1: big prison. Escape from Dana Morra was like the big
Speaker 1: movie that there is actually an SVU based on where
Speaker 1: that woman helped you guys get escape from that prison. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's death row at Dana Mora and Leroy is brought
Speaker 1: in and the dad tells him like, he's like, I
Speaker 1: owe you a debt. The killer says to him and
Speaker 1: he's like, you can never repay it. To just talk
Speaker 1: to these cops.
Speaker 4: The killer is a big oz actor. Oh he is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh okay, you know I've got a blind spot
Speaker 1: for oz, but I'm.
Speaker 4: Here to pick it up. Yeah, pick up all the pieces.
Speaker 4: So basically he's like, we played.
Speaker 2: A Muslim there too, So I guess he has a
Speaker 2: real Muslim vibe. Yeah, okay, yeah, another Muslim in me.
Speaker 2: He's really type cast.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he shared a cell with Brotus for three years.
Speaker 1: He goes he's a killer. He would ask me questions
Speaker 1: like how I got on death row, who I killed?
Speaker 1: And my answers pissed him off because I think he
Speaker 1: couldn't like it wasn't like a like, it wasn't like
Speaker 1: a sexy enough murder for him. He wasn't getting like
Speaker 1: a boner over the details. Now, Leroy explains that Brotos
Speaker 1: took joy in killing and stalking, gutting, doing things.
Speaker 4: To the body.
Speaker 1: Thought he was smarter than everyone else, even when he
Speaker 1: fucked up, like he said.
Speaker 4: He killed a blind girl close to home.
Speaker 1: So this is like ding ding, This is like the
Speaker 1: little connection that we need. And then there's like a
Speaker 1: sad moment where the dad's like, what were my son's
Speaker 1: final moments like? And he was like, sir, you don't
Speaker 1: need the image of your boy dying with my voice
Speaker 1: in your head telling you how and that's it. So
Speaker 1: that's kind of a sad little side story. So now
Speaker 1: Elliot's talking to Cabat and Kebit's like, I mean that's great,
Speaker 1: but like this is too this is hearsay from a
Speaker 1: guy on death row. Here's the part of this. It
Speaker 1: makes absolutely no fucking sense to me. In this Munch
Speaker 1: has found Vivian Parrish, that other teacher who was close
Speaker 1: with Debbie.
Speaker 4: Turns out she was She dated Brotus for six months
Speaker 4: and regularly picked her up from that school and a
Speaker 4: couple of times gave Debbie a ride home.
Speaker 1: How in the fucking world would the cops not have
Speaker 1: found that in the first round of investigations.
Speaker 4: It's New Jersey.
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, that's just how to me, Like, she's
Speaker 1: close to two teachers.
Speaker 4: You talk to those teachers.
Speaker 1: The teacher doesn't go, actually, I'm dating a serial killer,
Speaker 1: or like the teacher doesn't give any information.
Speaker 4: But the teacher doesn't know that she's dating a serial
Speaker 4: killer yet well she eventually.
Speaker 1: This is to me also a place where I would
Speaker 1: have loved to have met Vivian Parish. In this episode,
Speaker 1: they only talk about her like as an entity.
Speaker 4: Maybe if Zoom was around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we could have zoomed her in a FaceTime with
Speaker 1: Vivian because she had moved to New Mexico, and like,
Speaker 1: I just feel like you would have checked all you
Speaker 1: would have checked all the bases, Like the parents would
Speaker 1: have been like, oh yeah.
Speaker 4: A couple of times her teacher, Vivian Pears, brought her home.
Speaker 4: He misus parish like, whoever brought you?
Speaker 5: Who?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm not a fucking cop, but I
Speaker 4: just feel like this would have It's a huge hole.
Speaker 1: So then Debbie's parents are at the precinct and they're like,
Speaker 1: what's our next move? And Cabot's kind of like, I
Speaker 1: can't prove this in court, but we are reasonably sure
Speaker 1: of his guilt and he's going to be executed. And
Speaker 1: that's when the mother brings up Otis Toole, who is
Speaker 1: the man who is believed to have killed Adam Walsh,
Speaker 1: the six year old son of John Walsh.
Speaker 4: Who was the host of America's Most Wanted This Killer.
Speaker 1: Otis Toole Allegedly everyone thought he killed Adam Walsh, We'll
Speaker 1: get into that later in the episode. And he died
Speaker 1: of AIDS on death roll before.
Speaker 4: It was proven.
Speaker 1: So they're basically saying, like his hope died the day
Speaker 1: that Otis Toole died, and we don't want our hope
Speaker 1: to die like the way that that happened to him.
Speaker 1: So that again tugs on Cabot's heart strings and reaches her.
Speaker 1: So she goes to meet with Brotus's lead counsel and
Speaker 1: who looks like the date rapist guy I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: Sorry if you're a listener, sir, but you have a
Speaker 1: very very scary face.
Speaker 4: He puts his feet up on the table while he's
Speaker 4: talking to her. Don't like his attitude, and he's like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, let's put Brotus on trial. Let's get we'll
Speaker 4: gain him six to twelve more months, maybe eighteen if
Speaker 4: I drown you in paperwork.
Speaker 1: So they're basically colluding to get this stay of execution
Speaker 1: to happen just so he can live a little bit
Speaker 1: longer and she can get some closure for this family.
Speaker 4: Now we are one day before execution. We're in this
Speaker 4: New Jersey court.
Speaker 1: Cabot is facing off against Phil Dunfie aka Messinger. He's
Speaker 1: saying the evidence is circumstantial. She's saying, we don't even
Speaker 1: want to try, and we just want the opportunity to
Speaker 1: discover the truth. If he dies, the truth dies with him.
Speaker 1: So then afterwards they're at a bar. Dunfey slides into
Speaker 1: the booth with Alex and is basically like.
Speaker 4: Okay, we'll let you talk to him.
Speaker 1: Just promise me that you're not going to prosecute him
Speaker 1: even if he confesses to you, like, we just want
Speaker 1: this execution to go off, like and then you'll get
Speaker 1: the closure for your family.
Speaker 4: And we you know whatever.
Speaker 1: So now it's act for of this episode. We're four
Speaker 1: hours to execution. Elliot and Huang are like prepping. They're
Speaker 1: at the jail. They're about to meet Brotus. Wang is
Speaker 1: basically like, I'll be bad cop Elliot. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: kind of like the good cop. He's like, you be
Speaker 1: his friend when I stress him out, is what Hoong says.
Speaker 4: It might work. They might run out of time.
Speaker 1: So Brotos comes in, Stabler shakes his hand. Hoong doesn't
Speaker 1: sets it up right away. I'm not here to make friends,
Speaker 1: that's Wong. Okay, he's on America's Next not Model and
Speaker 1: he is not here to make friends. And they call
Speaker 1: him Matthew Brotus or something, and he's like, you can
Speaker 1: call me Matt. He's like extremely arrogant right off the top.
Speaker 1: He's like grinning at the idea that he.
Speaker 4: Doesn't have kids, you know, Like he's like, I mean,
Speaker 4: like anyone would admit it. Like he's just being really gross.
Speaker 1: And then they are they say like, why didn't you
Speaker 1: kill your girlfriend Vivian Parish?
Speaker 4: He's not giving them a lot.
Speaker 1: Howong brings up his insomnia and then suddenly he's like,
Speaker 1: what's in that?
Speaker 4: What's that? What are you holding?
Speaker 1: And Wang's got a folder and he's like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: just just another case I'm working on. I thought maybe
Speaker 1: I could get your help. Which serial killers love that?
Speaker 1: I feel like, like Ted Bundy, they went to Ted
Speaker 1: Bundy about the Green River killer, Like they go to
Speaker 1: these serial killers to try to be like, you guys
Speaker 1: are a special breed. Tell us about how you do
Speaker 1: your work so we can find this other guy, you know.
Speaker 1: So he basically wants to ask Brotus's opinion about this
Speaker 1: killer's m O. And they discussed the three d's of sadism, dread, dependency,
Speaker 1: and degradation.
Speaker 4: So Brotus obviously is like hungry to.
Speaker 1: See this folder. He opens it up. He's pissed there's
Speaker 1: no crime scene photos right, He's like, what is this?
Speaker 1: And then he just sees the one photo of Debbie,
Speaker 1: which honestly looks like it was taken in nineteen fifty two.
Speaker 1: She's like, in it's like an airbrushed sailor dress photo,
Speaker 1: and I think it's almly supposed to be like early nineties.
Speaker 4: But he crumples up the picture. He pushes the folder.
Speaker 1: Away and he's like, you're kind of like this guy,
Speaker 1: Like you both chose big girls.
Speaker 4: Stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And then they're describing the crime and Brotus is like
Speaker 1: getting turned on and it's really disgusting. And then he
Speaker 1: describes like cutting open a victim is being born again,
Speaker 1: and Huang's like, it's not about religion. The womb is
Speaker 1: like the one place where a mother can never abandon.
Speaker 4: Now we get.
Speaker 1: Into his mom issues. Elliott brings up Brotos's mom is like,
Speaker 1: she hated you, she abandoned you multiple times, and Brotos
Speaker 1: is like, she loved me.
Speaker 4: Like he doesn't. He doesn't like being psychoanalyzed.
Speaker 1: He's very much on stabler side that shrinks are are losers.
Speaker 1: And then Ellie is like how many times were you
Speaker 1: with Debbie post mortem? And Brotus is like, that's obscene.
Speaker 1: It always like, is so interesting to me? What these
Speaker 1: disgusting like monsters think is too far, Like I'll do
Speaker 1: all this horrible shit, I'll torture someone for days, but
Speaker 1: like be with the body once they're dead.
Speaker 4: Ew, It's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So he says he only went back to the victims
Speaker 1: to check that they were still there, and Stabler was like, well,
Speaker 1: this guy went back to the victim to be with
Speaker 1: them and gives Brotos a wink. Sorry, it's kind of
Speaker 1: a hot wink from Stabler. I kind of wanted someone
Speaker 1: to make it into a gift. Please do that if
Speaker 1: you know how to do that.
Speaker 4: So they stay to Brotus.
Speaker 1: Vivian Parish said, you had a hard time getting it up,
Speaker 1: and he's like, I should have killed her before she
Speaker 1: went out west. Debbie just wanted someone to tell her
Speaker 1: ugly ass that she was pretty. Thought she was in
Speaker 1: a harlequin romance. So he says Debbie even though he
Speaker 1: means Vivian slip of the tongue and he goes, that's
Speaker 1: one of my other victims. And they're like no, none
Speaker 1: of your other victims are named Debbie or Deborah or
Speaker 1: their middle names.
Speaker 4: They well knows all their names.
Speaker 1: So he puts his head down on the table and
Speaker 1: is like, what time is it? And that's where we
Speaker 1: started the episode. So now we've caught up to where
Speaker 1: we started the episode. Messinger and Cabot are at the
Speaker 1: jail like just chatting when alarms go off and a
Speaker 1: lockdown is initiated, and that's kind of when we know
Speaker 1: that this man has attacked Huang and Stabler. They they
Speaker 1: keep they push Cabot and Messinger back and they keep going, go,
Speaker 1: go go, but they're making them walk backwards.
Speaker 4: Turn them around, like let them walk forward, they should
Speaker 4: turn themselves around. They're just like shuffling backwards. It was
Speaker 4: very funny to me. Also the attack.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're going to say this, but
Speaker 2: he you know, because then you think that Huan and
Speaker 2: Stabler got him. But this was his plan all along,
Speaker 2: because he says, he goes, what time is it because
Speaker 2: he knows that's when the guards switch shifts, right, So
Speaker 2: it's kind of like they thought that they were winning
Speaker 2: this thing, but all along he was just waiting till
Speaker 2: five o'clock, so I can go now, which.
Speaker 1: Is very Hannibal Lefter, Like Hannibal Lecter knew when they
Speaker 1: were switching shifts and like gets one of the guards
Speaker 1: and it's like a whole thing, you know. So they
Speaker 1: lock Messinger and Cabot in a cell, like it's basically
Speaker 1: like the audience area for watching the execution, and all
Speaker 1: these families are like, when is the show starting. It's
Speaker 1: really awkward, And then we cut to the scene where
Speaker 1: Brotus is bashing Huang's head against the wall and he's
Speaker 1: got Stabler in a choke hold and he goes Debbie
Speaker 1: didn't fight back, So there's the confession that we've wanted
Speaker 1: this whole time. Then the guards pulled him apart, and
Speaker 1: the guards start beating the shit out of Brotus, and
Speaker 1: Elliott's like, stop, stop, that's.
Speaker 4: What he wants.
Speaker 1: And so then the way the episode ends, Huong is
Speaker 1: going to be all right. Brotus is on a ventilator
Speaker 1: and the state is not allowed to execute an unhealthy man,
Speaker 1: so they just have to like let the families of
Speaker 1: the victims know that, like this is going to go
Speaker 1: on until he either recovers or he's just he could
Speaker 1: be in a coma forever.
Speaker 2: Like, and I felt like ty Burrell had a really
Speaker 2: good acting moment. I was like full on with him
Speaker 2: when Stadler's like, I'll tell them, and he goes, they
Speaker 2: don't give a shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, He's like, they don't care. Would you?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I actually kind of would. I'm anti
Speaker 1: death penalty, so I guess like.
Speaker 4: But I would.
Speaker 1: I would be like, it's fine to stay the execution
Speaker 1: for a little bit if it helps another family get closure.
Speaker 4: I don't think. I don't know how, Like you're just
Speaker 4: assuming people are very selfish.
Speaker 1: I feel like, So Elliott leaves the prison and there's
Speaker 1: all these protesters outside that are probably pro and against execution,
Speaker 1: and then he sees the coopers and the show fades
Speaker 1: to black Wright as he's about to tell them that,
Speaker 1: you know, they figured out who killed their daughter?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Wow, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's the episode, And it was a it was
Speaker 1: a lot of ins and out, so there's a lot
Speaker 1: of moving around in this lot of we're going cross
Speaker 1: state lines, we're in a New Jersey.
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering for a killer, why wouldn't he have
Speaker 2: just confessed to this crime. We're already getting the death penalty,
Speaker 2: like what was the game playing?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is weird. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think maybe because it might be because he
Speaker 1: messed with the body after it was dead, or like
Speaker 1: some of that, Like there was some shame with that.
Speaker 1: He said, like too close to home. Like I guess
Speaker 1: he did most of his other killings in New Jersey.
Speaker 4: I don't know. It's a great question.
Speaker 1: There's another episode like this in the show where they're
Speaker 1: just trying to get a guy to say he did
Speaker 1: these crimes and he's like, remember when he's sniffing.
Speaker 4: The baseball hat. Yes, And he's.
Speaker 1: Like, I know every kid I did, and I didn't
Speaker 1: do this one. And it's like, but you know, I don't.
Speaker 1: I need to remember that episode, sad.
Speaker 4: I've recently just watched it. Did he actually kill the
Speaker 4: kid that they think he did?
Speaker 2: I don't even remember. That's why we watched these over
Speaker 2: and over again. That's the point, Like, I've watched all
Speaker 2: of them and you're asking me a question of one
Speaker 2: I watched within the next last two weeks, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: no clue, But I'll sniff those hats again and be surprised.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's take a quick break and then
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you to take us into the
Speaker 1: reality of all of it.
Speaker 2: So this crime, there's a couple different ones. I'll touch
Speaker 2: on one and then get into details of another. And
Speaker 2: heads up, there are some super disgusting, twisted, fucked up
Speaker 2: facts and I will be saying them, so I don't know,
Speaker 2: get a puke bucket.
Speaker 4: But I'm not censoring this.
Speaker 2: But the first crime and Kara touched on it in
Speaker 2: the episode, and Otis tool was mentioned in the Sview
Speaker 2: episode and basically he's a convicted serial killer and he
Speaker 2: confessed to the murder of Adam Walsh, but he was
Speaker 2: never convicted of it and there was never enough evidence
Speaker 2: to convict him, and so the confession was then also canted,
Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of confusing shit. And John Walsh,
Speaker 2: who is the host of America's Most Wanted, he never
Speaker 2: got closure and that's kind of been his mission is
Speaker 2: to be an advocate for victims of violent crimes because
Speaker 2: of the murder of his son. So Otis is a
Speaker 2: drifter serial killer convicted of six counts of murder.
Speaker 4: And what happened with Adam.
Speaker 2: Was July of nineteen eighty one, a boy and a
Speaker 2: mother entered sears at one entrance, and the mom went
Speaker 2: to go look at lamps, and the boy went to
Speaker 2: go play video games in a console promotional area, and
Speaker 2: the other boys that were playing were acting a fool,
Speaker 2: so the security guard kicked all the boys out, but
Speaker 2: at another exit. And you know, baby brains can't really
Speaker 2: like comprehend all that. Like I have a memory as
Speaker 2: a kid turning one wrong way, and like, clearly this
Speaker 2: wasn't the path to my home, but my little brain
Speaker 2: just couldn't handle switching back around. And so at one
Speaker 2: point fifty five, they called the cops because they couldn't
Speaker 2: find the boy at all, and they found his head
Speaker 2: in a drainage canal and the rest of his body
Speaker 2: was never discovered. The only thing that confused me was
Speaker 2: they said that he died of exphyxiation, But how do
Speaker 2: you figure that out with just a decapitated head?
Speaker 4: Maybe just the I capitlard, Yeah, I wonder.
Speaker 2: So that's pretty gruesome and awful, and it sucks that
Speaker 2: they don't have closure. And Tool died in prison from
Speaker 2: psoriasis at age forty nine.
Speaker 4: Well it was cirrhosis.
Speaker 1: Oriasis is a skin condition that I actually have cirrhosis
Speaker 1: is a disease of the liver. But what's crazy is
Speaker 1: in this episode, uh, Stabler goes he died of AIDS
Speaker 1: in prison, and I looked it up and it just
Speaker 1: nowhere that you look it says AIDS. And then if
Speaker 1: you look up otis tool AIDS, it says a couple
Speaker 1: of random places say he died of cirrhosis and AIDS.
Speaker 1: And it's just interesting that that's what SVU went with.
Speaker 1: They were like, he died of AIDS. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: most places say he died of cirrhosis. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's pretty wild. It's crazy. I honestly feel like he
Speaker 1: did not kill him. It seems like he was confessing
Speaker 1: to a famous crime because he was a little bit
Speaker 1: he was.
Speaker 4: I think he had like a very low IQ.
Speaker 1: I think he had a traumatic life. But also one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why there was no evidence is because
Speaker 1: the cops lost his car. They had his car and
Speaker 1: I guess it was like impounded and then it was
Speaker 1: fully lost and like would have had blood and it
Speaker 1: would have had like all this stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cops fucked up this investigation a few different times.
Speaker 4: It was pretty annoying.
Speaker 1: But also this is a huge crime. Just to mention
Speaker 1: really quickly, this is a huge crime that sparked the
Speaker 1: stranger danger whole thing that we grew up with. Like
Speaker 1: I grew up like watching videos in school about stranger
Speaker 1: danger and stuff, And I've been listening to some podcasts
Speaker 1: lately that are like, this is like a hysteria of
Speaker 1: stranger danger. Like the number of stranger danger crimes are extremely,
Speaker 1: extremely low and rare.
Speaker 4: Well we're saying that, but we talk about them all
Speaker 4: the time.
Speaker 1: At first, they seem they're the ones because they're the
Speaker 1: ones they're going to talk about on TV. And half
Speaker 1: these are made up on SVU, But if you look
Speaker 1: at the numbers, it's not. Kids are not getting snatched
Speaker 1: left and right. Usually it's pretty rare. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: mean for in the sv universe, it's happening on a
Speaker 1: daily basis.
Speaker 2: And another way the cops kind of fucked up is
Speaker 2: they wanted him to do it because it.
Speaker 4: Would close it up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was bad, but it is amazing what
Speaker 2: Adam Walsh has been able to do and like what
Speaker 2: he's done for victims' rights, and it's just like really
Speaker 2: sad and it reminds me of the dad in the episode,
Speaker 2: like your wounds don't heal? If you need a child,
Speaker 2: you know, you're just always going to be a different person.
Speaker 2: The crime I wanted to more focus on was Ed Kemper,
Speaker 2: and he's pretty famous, a lot of movies, a lot
Speaker 2: of books, and the FBI did profile him. He has
Speaker 2: multiple pretty famous interviews you can watch on YouTube in
Speaker 2: eighty one, eighty four and like ninety one. And he
Speaker 2: was portrayed in the show mind Hunter, which I really liked.
Speaker 4: I only watched season one, but I liked it a lost.
Speaker 1: Season one's better than season two and he's not in
Speaker 1: season two.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he did an incredible job, and I liked
Speaker 2: all the actors.
Speaker 1: And I felt the woman character in that show was
Speaker 1: so good. She was and she had horrible makeup. She
Speaker 1: was orange the whole time. Go back and watch it.
Speaker 1: She looks like a Simpsons character. Yeah, I did not
Speaker 1: notice the makeup team did her dirty, but go on.
Speaker 2: So Ed Kemper is alive today. He was born in
Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight and he is a Sagittarius. So if
Speaker 2: anyone was wanting to but.
Speaker 4: What's his rising sign?
Speaker 2: And the reason the FBI and everyone wanted to talk
Speaker 2: to him. Is because he was smart as hell. His
Speaker 2: IQ was super high, and so he was really like
Speaker 2: self resp what is it introspective? Like he was able
Speaker 2: to talk about the crimes in a really detailed cool
Speaker 2: way that I.
Speaker 4: Guess a lot of other killers didn't.
Speaker 1: And I think that he could look at what other
Speaker 1: criminals were doing and he could like synthesize information and
Speaker 1: like analyze what motives and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: The thing is like he is so interesting and smart
Speaker 2: and whatever, and then you're like and then you research
Speaker 2: and you're like, you're an incel. You're just an insult
Speaker 2: who wanted a fuck like that. At the end of
Speaker 2: that any you're blaming your mom. I don't know, but
Speaker 2: the mom does seem like she sucks. But then I
Speaker 2: don't fully believe it because so he blames a lot
Speaker 2: of his rage and hatefulness and wild problems on how
Speaker 2: his mom belittled him, treated him like trash, just hated
Speaker 2: him so much.
Speaker 4: And I guess his sister tried to kill him twice.
Speaker 2: What Yeah, like threw him in a deep end of
Speaker 2: a pool and then like try to do something else
Speaker 2: fucked up.
Speaker 1: To him and when I was reading a little bit
Speaker 1: about Otis Toole. His mother used to dress him up
Speaker 1: in dresses and call him Susan. So moms are doing
Speaker 1: some fucked up shit out there.
Speaker 2: But the thing with the mom was she was nervous
Speaker 2: for her daughter's safety, so she locked him in a basement.
Speaker 4: And wouldn't let him out so that he wouldn't hurt
Speaker 4: the daughter.
Speaker 2: Yes, so then that he blames that for fucking him up.
Speaker 2: But also he had already killed multiple cats. He buried
Speaker 2: one of the family cats alive, then once it was dead,
Speaker 2: took it out, decapitated it, put it on a spike.
Speaker 2: He killed another one of the cats, like slaughtered it.
Speaker 2: He also is a kid loved to play electric chair
Speaker 2: and gas chamber and would like make his sisters blindfold
Speaker 2: him and then he would pretend to dine in an
Speaker 2: electric chair. So I'm like, I understand if the mom
Speaker 2: wanted to keep him away from her daughters. Yeah, you're
Speaker 2: like ripping heads off barbies. But then also did being
Speaker 2: trapped in a basement is like yeah exacerb at bit, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: like wicked situation?
Speaker 4: What is it is wicked? Are you born wicked?
Speaker 2: Or his wickedness thrust upon you, but he blames her
Speaker 2: for all of his problems. So she got sick of
Speaker 2: dealing with him and sent him to live with his
Speaker 2: paternal grandparents in Northfolk, California. And then his parents did
Speaker 2: split up, and that caused some issues because he liked
Speaker 2: his dad, but it didn't work out living with him either.
Speaker 4: I mean, this kid was not easy.
Speaker 2: So the mother sent him to live with his paternal
Speaker 2: grandparents when he was a teenager, and at age fifteen,
Speaker 2: he got into a fight with his grandma in the
Speaker 2: kitchen and just shot her dead.
Speaker 4: In the kitchen. Oh, he shot her.
Speaker 2: He shot her, and then pos humously posts posthumously, post posthumously.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds crazy.
Speaker 2: But after the dead there's all these post dead stab wounds.
Speaker 2: So he was pissed at her, so he like shot her,
Speaker 2: stabbed her a bunch once she was dead, and then
Speaker 2: when the grandpa came home, he went outside and shot
Speaker 2: the grandpa outside. And when he talks about it, he goes,
Speaker 2: I didn't want him to have to see his wife dead. Weird,
Speaker 2: So it's like nice in a way, Yeah, but no.
Speaker 4: But he's having empathetic feelings. That's what's interesting.
Speaker 2: Wow, he could also be lying, like he could just
Speaker 2: have wanted to kill him, but he was like, there's
Speaker 2: no reason for him to have seen that, so I
Speaker 2: just killed him. So it is very strange. It's tough
Speaker 2: to understand it all. So he was sent to Adas
Speaker 2: Scadero State hospit it all, which was a max security
Speaker 2: for mentally ill convicts. They said that he suffered from
Speaker 2: paranoid schizophrenia, but some of the doctors don't believe that
Speaker 2: at all because he didn't have voices and there weren't interruptions,
Speaker 2: and he wasn't I.
Speaker 4: Don't I don't know what was going on in this hospital.
Speaker 2: Because basically he was such a model person and he
Speaker 2: was so smart that he ended up helping the doctors
Speaker 2: do psychovals on other patients, and he was like questioning
Speaker 2: other patients. And so through all of the research, he
Speaker 2: learned how to trick the psychologists and psychiatrists into thinking
Speaker 2: he was rehabilitated because they gave him all of this knowledge.
Speaker 2: And then he also learned tips from the other criminals.
Speaker 4: On how to be a better criminal.
Speaker 2: So instead of like he just basically learned how to
Speaker 2: be a super instead, yeah, they supercharged him.
Speaker 1: Like instead of like fixing him. They just kind of
Speaker 1: gave him like better powers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like one of the people, like one of the
Speaker 2: less since he said he learned was he was told
Speaker 2: never leave a victim alive because that's a witness.
Speaker 4: Always kill anyone that you rape.
Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, yeah, I'll put that in
Speaker 2: my feather cap or whatever, like I'll put it.
Speaker 4: I'll remember that.
Speaker 2: And he was a really hard worker and so he
Speaker 2: just did all this extra work there. And I guess
Speaker 2: sociopaths are hard workers, so it wasn't that surprising. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he got let out so at age twenty one after
Speaker 2: killing his grandparents.
Speaker 4: He got out sixty months later. And not only but
Speaker 4: he was only fifteen when he killed his grandparents.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, Yeah, so he got out at twenty one,
Speaker 2: and in November twenty ninth, nineteen seventy two, his younger
Speaker 2: record was expunged.
Speaker 1: So now he's out there like a perfectly like non
Speaker 1: criminal person.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then on his outside world time, he really
Speaker 2: wanted to be a cop, but he couldn't because he
Speaker 2: was too big. So he was like six nine and
Speaker 2: three hundred pounds, and I guess that's too big to
Speaker 2: be a police office, sir, But he just hung out
Speaker 2: at cop bars and he became friends with all the
Speaker 2: cops to the point where cops were giving him handcuffs.
Speaker 2: One of the cops gave him a gun, like cops
Speaker 2: gave him a fake like toy badge or some sort
Speaker 2: of badge. But like, so he now was able to
Speaker 2: befriend psychologists and doctors and cops. And in one of
Speaker 2: the interviews, this is another thing where it's like he
Speaker 2: is so self aware, where he was asked like, so,
Speaker 2: how did the cops feel about you? And he goes,
Speaker 2: I was a friendly nuisance. I annoyed them. So like
Speaker 2: he knows he's annoying to them. Yeah, didn't care enough
Speaker 2: because now he's friends with all these cops. Because even
Speaker 2: at one point, like I we'll get to it. But
Speaker 2: like the cops had to search his place and they
Speaker 2: had all this evidence everywhere, and they didn't They were
Speaker 2: like big ed nah and like totally didn't fully investigate.
Speaker 2: And even when he was caught or like when he
Speaker 2: turned himself in, all the officers and santas were like.
Speaker 4: No way, can you believe it? And then like.
Speaker 2: Obviously all the evidence worked out, but so yeah, he
Speaker 2: was like a smart guy that was able to do anything.
Speaker 2: And then all the doctors when he was released were like,
Speaker 2: do he should not live with his mother? Like please, don't,
Speaker 2: that shouldn't happen. But he was released to his mother
Speaker 2: and he hates her, she abused him.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 2: So he starts working at the Department of Transportation in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, and then during this time he gets
Speaker 2: hit by a car and his arm was super fucked up.
Speaker 2: So he won a fifteen thousand dollars settlement, and he
Speaker 2: decided to follow his passions instead of work, and his
Speaker 2: passions were picking up hitchhikers. And what is an interesting
Speaker 2: fact is he picked up one hundred and fifty hitchhikers
Speaker 2: before killing anybody.
Speaker 1: Wow, And yeah, he would just pick them up and
Speaker 1: what and drive them to drive them places? Yeah, well
Speaker 1: he honestly, somebody's so smart and calculated like that. He
Speaker 1: was probably like learning how how do you lose someone
Speaker 1: into your car? How do you make someone feel safe,
Speaker 1: how do you like keep the conversation going so that
Speaker 1: nobody can run, and like how far do you have
Speaker 1: to drive before you're like in a rural area where
Speaker 1: they can't go anywhere.
Speaker 4: I don't know, Maybe do I sound like a serial killer?
Speaker 2: I'm like no, But this is what's scary, is like
Speaker 2: you don't you just don't like all of this was
Speaker 2: practiced to murder, Like you don't even know how many
Speaker 2: kiers are out there practicing.
Speaker 1: It's like they say, get ten thousand hours. He was
Speaker 1: getting ten thousand hours.
Speaker 6: He was.
Speaker 2: And he focused on college students in Santa Cruz because
Speaker 2: his mom worked there as an administrative assistant, and so
Speaker 2: there was also another there was like a few killers
Speaker 2: active in that area during the time. He was dubbed
Speaker 2: the co ed killer, but there were a couple other
Speaker 2: killers in that area.
Speaker 1: California has had so many fucking serial killers it's it's
Speaker 1: like insane.
Speaker 2: And so, and hitchhiking was dangerous and so then what
Speaker 2: they said was don't hitchhike.
Speaker 4: You know, I'll the PSA, don't hitchhike.
Speaker 2: Don't hitchhike unless someone has a college parking stick or
Speaker 2: like a college authorization sticker, because so you know they
Speaker 2: work at the college.
Speaker 4: He had one of those stickers wow from his mom. Wowow.
Speaker 2: So they like all the messaging to all these students
Speaker 2: was you can trust someone with the school sticker and
Speaker 2: it actually gave him like an easier way.
Speaker 4: To pick up victim. So that is pretty wild.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then I don't know if he stuck
Speaker 2: to the students because.
Speaker 4: His mom worked there, that's what he said.
Speaker 2: And they said he picked his mom's favorite students or whatnot,
Speaker 2: but I think it had to do with women education.
Speaker 4: He just, yeah, it is wild.
Speaker 2: So in May of nineteen seventy two, he picks up
Speaker 2: two Fresno State students, Marianne Pesche and Anita Lukeza, and
Speaker 2: they never made it to their next destination. A female
Speaker 2: head was discovered in the woods in Santa Cruz and
Speaker 2: it was identified as Pechet, but luke aza remains have
Speaker 2: never been found and the head was found in August
Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy two, so it took a few months
Speaker 2: to find this head.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Yeah, he was really into decapitating.
Speaker 2: He said he loved decapitating because it's a trophy and
Speaker 2: it is everything, Like, you can't your body doesn't work
Speaker 2: without the head.
Speaker 4: Right, It's a control center.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he liked that it had like a mouth
Speaker 2: and ears, like he just said, it had everything.
Speaker 4: So that's why he liked having heads, but he would keep.
Speaker 1: Them or like put keep them in the woods so
Speaker 1: he could get like that that's where they would he would.
Speaker 2: So he he orally raped them after he decapitated.
Speaker 4: Okay. And he would also like fuck around with the bodies.
Speaker 2: So he would like kill people, drag the bodies back
Speaker 2: to his room where he lived with his mom, hide
Speaker 2: them in the closet, and when she went to work,
Speaker 2: would like fuck around with them. Okay, So he was
Speaker 2: maybe this is where SVU got some of their inspiration,
Speaker 2: but he was definitely there's like actually a specific word
Speaker 2: for oral rape.
Speaker 4: There's like a word that Wikipedia gave me.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't about to lo I'm tapped out with words, Hannah,
Speaker 2: did you look it up?
Speaker 4: What is it? I haven't. It's spelled I r r
Speaker 4: U M A TiO ere you matio. Okay, not a
Speaker 4: word we need to keep. No.
Speaker 1: No, so that doesn't need to take up space in
Speaker 1: anyone's brain.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: And he a cop actually pulled him over for a
Speaker 2: broken tail light while the two bodies were in his
Speaker 2: car and didn't detect a thing.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that happened so much. It's like, oh,
Speaker 4: and I'm sure he got off on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So after he killed them, like I said, he
Speaker 2: brought the back to the apartment, removed heads and hands,
Speaker 2: engaged in sexual activity with their corpses.
Speaker 4: So that's pretty wild, tough stuff.
Speaker 2: So in September nineteen seventy two, so you know, not
Speaker 2: even a month after the head was found, he picked
Speaker 2: up a fifteen year old I go coup. This is
Speaker 2: the thing I hate debating, like what victims did or
Speaker 2: didn't do, because it's like they shouldn't be dead. But
Speaker 2: like some people say, she missed the bus to her
Speaker 2: dance class and decided to hitchhike, and then some places
Speaker 2: I read were it's just like she decided to hitchhike
Speaker 2: because she didn't want to wait for the bus. And
Speaker 2: it sucks that those things matter for our judgments, like
Speaker 2: she should be alive. She's a child, right, So I
Speaker 2: don't like talking about those distinctions. But after killing Aiko
Speaker 2: and putting her in the trunk, he went to a
Speaker 2: bar and had drink drinks and in the parking lot
Speaker 2: of the bar afterwards open the trunk to admire the body,
Speaker 2: like in full open, and then drove home. So so casual,
Speaker 2: this isn't even like big event, like he has a
Speaker 2: dead body and that's confidence.
Speaker 4: I don't know if it's his smartness.
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, but like, yeah, just
Speaker 2: chill having drinks while there's a dead body in his trunk.
Speaker 4: It's so fucked up.
Speaker 2: So January seventy three, he picked up Cindy Shawl and
Speaker 2: he shot and killed her again, brought him into the
Speaker 2: room when the mom was at home, dismembered the body.
Speaker 2: He also threw body parts in the ocean, and so
Speaker 2: body parts we're constantly being washed up.
Speaker 4: So that's another thing in this town. Like once in
Speaker 4: a while, like a body part would just wash up.
Speaker 5: Good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, this is just interesting too
Speaker 1: that he's shooting them like so many other of these
Speaker 1: killers like stab them or like do horrible like like.
Speaker 4: But he does.
Speaker 2: The thing is like he does, like he explains later
Speaker 2: he stabbed and strangled peschet.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, sorry, I thought you because he shot his
Speaker 1: grandparents and then he shot this one woman.
Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, it's interesting that he's shooting them.
Speaker 1: So it's like he's getting the death over with quickly
Speaker 1: so that he could just like mess with the body.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely has way MOREMS than the night Stalker,
Speaker 2: but it is a way of like it's a little
Speaker 2: random in terms of stabbing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, shooting. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And he had multiple guns, so he had like a
Speaker 2: twenty two and a forty four, Like he had a
Speaker 2: few you could.
Speaker 4: Say, any numbers. I don't know anything about guns. He's
Speaker 4: got a twelve fifty. Well, because I just remember that.
Speaker 2: Because when the cops did eventually like show up to
Speaker 2: investigate some stuff, he was able to ask leading questions
Speaker 2: to figure out what kind of a gun they were looking.
Speaker 4: For to nowhere his friends were to.
Speaker 2: Like help lead them where they didn't want them to go.
Speaker 2: But they did find a big gun in his closet.
Speaker 2: And but next to it was a box of trophies
Speaker 2: of like body parts and purses, id's and shit.
Speaker 4: Not body parts I would smell.
Speaker 2: But like it had persons and IDs and like different trophies.
Speaker 4: They didn't even open the box. It's just tough.
Speaker 2: And this this kind of reminds me of Stabler, where
Speaker 2: it's like you're you know, you can't keep your personal.
Speaker 4: In it, like Stabler wanted to solve it.
Speaker 2: The crime is so bad, and here they didn't want
Speaker 2: their friend who's obsessed with them.
Speaker 4: I mean he was a cop groupie. Yeah, and that
Speaker 4: could just see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know when people are complimenting you and
Speaker 2: you just can't even. I mean, it's humiliating. So he
Speaker 2: buried Cindy's head in her mother's backyard, so body parts
Speaker 2: in the ocean.
Speaker 4: It I mean, it's like he's just a it's just gross.
Speaker 2: It's like gross and vile and really sad.
Speaker 4: February FI.
Speaker 2: So he's not even taking that much time between the kills.
Speaker 2: He used like I mentioned a campus parking sticker that
Speaker 2: his mother gave him. To facilitate a double murder. He
Speaker 2: offered to drive two students, Rosalind Thorpe and Alice lou
Speaker 2: and he shot them, drove past campus security gates with
Speaker 2: the dead women in his car. I know, it's really wild.
Speaker 2: He then decapitated them, removed bullets, and spread the remains
Speaker 2: all over town. And in March, some of their remains
Speaker 2: were discovered by hikers in this in San Mateo County.
Speaker 2: So you know, I guess if you want to find
Speaker 2: if a body go hiking, I would say that. I
Speaker 2: mean any time I drive by woods, especially like Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: so woody, Like any road trip with woods.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I want to know how many dead bodies
Speaker 4: are in that wood?
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 1: I once drove through the park in DC when Chandra
Speaker 1: Levy was missing that she was eventually found in what
Speaker 1: I drove through it and we were like, isn't it
Speaker 1: crazy that she's like missing? Like where do you think
Speaker 1: she is? And then like she was found like a
Speaker 1: mile away in this park. Yeah, and like, yeah, a
Speaker 1: very wooded park, but yeah, Like so what you're saying, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: when you I totally do that where I see woods that.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I wonder how many did bodies are in there?
Speaker 4: It's scary.
Speaker 2: So like, at the same time of his murders, there
Speaker 2: are two other serial killers, so John Linley Frazier and
Speaker 2: Herbert Mullins are also killing in Santa Cruz. So it
Speaker 2: was dubbed the murder capital of the World lol. And
Speaker 2: then his crime specifically, I said this, but the co
Speaker 2: Ed killer April nineteen seventy three, on Good Friday, he
Speaker 2: went to his mother's home and attacked her after she
Speaker 2: fell asleep.
Speaker 4: And in a.
Speaker 2: Lot of the interviews I was watching and like he
Speaker 2: would cry and be like I knew I was going
Speaker 2: to kill her two weeks before I did, Like, because
Speaker 2: she had already fallen asleep.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like they had a fight that precipitated it, right,
Speaker 1: It was like he went over there.
Speaker 2: Would fight, But I think they always fall I don't
Speaker 2: think they had a good relationship, Like I just think
Speaker 2: she hated him and was an alcoholic and he had
Speaker 2: a lot of mommy issues. She's but I you know, obviously,
Speaker 2: I don't like when anyone blames a woman for anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, of their own actions. She still didn't deserve to
Speaker 4: be killed, but she maybe wasn't a great but yeah,
Speaker 4: he would cry.
Speaker 2: He'd be like, oh I saw this person and I
Speaker 2: knew I would have to kill them. And then basically
Speaker 2: he picked up two hitchhiker This is like through like
Speaker 2: his voice. So we also don't know if he's a
Speaker 2: fucking liar too.
Speaker 4: I don't get that vibe.
Speaker 2: But like, I'm not a pro, and I guess these
Speaker 2: profilers the FBI didn't, I mean, they've used his stuff.
Speaker 2: But he said, like he picked up two girls and
Speaker 2: drove around and took them to their destination, and he
Speaker 2: was like, I need to kill my mom. Because all
Speaker 2: of my killings are just getting back at my mom,
Speaker 2: and I don't want more young people like these women
Speaker 2: to die. Like these women shouldn't be dead. They can
Speaker 2: be alive. If I just kill my mother, that will
Speaker 2: end at all.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like, what is the phrase cutting the head off
Speaker 1: of the dragon or something. There's like a like I'll
Speaker 1: cut the head off the.
Speaker 4: Snake or something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so he attacked her after she fell asleep. He
Speaker 2: hit her head in the hammer. Okay, so this is
Speaker 2: like one of the gross, my gross favorite parts of this.
Speaker 2: So there's a hammer, He cuts her throat, he decapitated her.
Speaker 2: He cut off her hands, but then he removed her
Speaker 2: larynx and put it down the garbage.
Speaker 4: Disposed of her vocal cords. Basically, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they talk about that in mind Hunter, and I
Speaker 1: think he says why right, Like, I think it's because
Speaker 1: he just wanted It's symbolic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he handed her to shut up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I watched the video on YouTube. It was
Speaker 2: like they would go back and forth from Minehunter to
Speaker 2: the real tape wow, and just show and some of
Speaker 2: it was word for word, like they did a great job.
Speaker 2: And I watched one news clip with the actor on
Speaker 2: local LA news and like the news reporter was gonna
Speaker 2: like suck his dick on on set, she was.
Speaker 4: Like, you're amazing.
Speaker 2: I could talk to you for hours and performance like
Speaker 2: she was just all over this.
Speaker 4: Guy was good. But how about that, he's very good.
Speaker 4: I saw him at a and I could not focus.
Speaker 4: I was like so scared because he was there.
Speaker 1: Because I feel like I read that because they had
Speaker 1: to find a man that was so huge like him,
Speaker 1: and he looks like him and it. But the guy
Speaker 1: was like only sort of like a newer actor and
Speaker 1: he was also a special ed teacher, right, Like that's.
Speaker 4: What I was reading about him.
Speaker 2: You have to be empathetic to your character or you
Speaker 2: can't play them like yeah, even if they're a bad person.
Speaker 2: So I am sure for a new actor, like that's
Speaker 2: so impressive to be able to pull off.
Speaker 4: A role like this.
Speaker 2: So but after he killed his mother, he and hit
Speaker 2: his mom's body parts, he called his mom's friend, Sally
Speaker 2: Hallett and invited her over to the house for like
Speaker 2: dinner and hangout and then strangled her and killed her
Speaker 2: and hit her body in the closet. And it was
Speaker 2: to have a like a cover story to say the
Speaker 2: mom and friend went on vacation.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, yeah, wow, yeah, I mean this guy
Speaker 4: is really it's fucked up.
Speaker 2: Like I guess, if we're going to have a killer,
Speaker 2: we want them to be dumb as dumb as possible, right,
Speaker 2: because this guy's thinking of everything. So Kemper actually fled
Speaker 2: the area and he drove to Pueblo, Colorado, and on
Speaker 2: April twenty third, he called Santa Cruz police and confessed
Speaker 2: and they were like, wait, what, bigad, But he led
Speaker 2: them to all the evidence they needed to prove that
Speaker 2: he was the co ed killer. October nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 2: he was found guilty on all eight counts of first
Speaker 2: degree murder that he was charged with. The judge asked
Speaker 2: him what his punishment should be, and he said, I
Speaker 2: should be tortured to death. So they gave him eight
Speaker 2: consecutive of life sentences and he's serving his time at
Speaker 2: California Facility in Vassaville.
Speaker 4: Vacaville, Vaucaville.
Speaker 2: Also, this is personal to us, but he learned a
Speaker 2: lot of cop behavior from cop shows.
Speaker 4: So he learned.
Speaker 2: He was like, I learned, like you can't talk about
Speaker 2: crimes too much with other cop because like or he
Speaker 2: wanted to show up to the memorial services of course,
Speaker 2: but he's like I knew from cop shows they look
Speaker 2: for evidence the right. He loved watching cop shows and
Speaker 2: learning stuff. He also talks about how he's not impotent physically,
Speaker 2: but he's emotionally impotent, Like he just wasn't able to
Speaker 2: connect with anyone emotionally, and he killed his mother because
Speaker 2: he wanted everyone to know this happened because of how
Speaker 2: she raised her song. He talks about how he was
Speaker 2: scared of male and female relationships and he wanted to
Speaker 2: have sex and be social and he just couldn't. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just like a classic Incel. Like that's another I
Speaker 2: don't want to call him smart because it's like you
Speaker 2: just put pussy on a pedestal and then instead of
Speaker 2: like working on your issues, you decided to like rape
Speaker 2: de capitated heads.
Speaker 4: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like weird. You get like brought back down
Speaker 2: to reality. I'm like, wow, he is so smart and clever.
Speaker 6: And then it's like about the crimes and you're like ooh, yeah,
Speaker 6: oh what was These are just tidbits for okay, so
Speaker 6: what else was super interesting was when he was picking
Speaker 6: up other hitchhikers that he wasn't killing, they were all
Speaker 6: talking about this hitchhike killer.
Speaker 2: So he got off on it and he got what
Speaker 2: people thought. So it was just funny to him that
Speaker 2: these women were sitting in his car talking about who
Speaker 2: they think the hitchhiking the co ed killer is, but
Speaker 2: it was him and driving, which is like, which.
Speaker 1: Is like kind of what they're playing on in this
Speaker 1: episode of SVU when they're like, well, we've got this
Speaker 1: unsolved crime. Do you know anything about it? And he's
Speaker 1: getting off on the fact that he knows it's him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was wild, and I'm sure that was
Speaker 2: an ego trip. And he also like I don't That's
Speaker 2: why I don't like these connections. They're like, why else
Speaker 2: did you keep the heads? And he said, well, my
Speaker 2: father which chop the head off two pet chickens, and
Speaker 2: my mom made me eat them for dinner. And it's like,
Speaker 2: maybe that's weird and bad, but like, that's not the
Speaker 2: reason you chop people's heads off, right, because you had
Speaker 2: to eat a couple of chicken heads.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, that's like I'm not buying that.
Speaker 2: Oh, other like young behaviors he did, you know, besides
Speaker 2: like burning cats and shit, what are burying cats alive?
Speaker 4: Was he did not burn any cats? Okay, I just
Speaker 4: can't read, Okay.
Speaker 2: He also would take his dad's bayonet and sneak out
Speaker 2: at night and spy on his teachers.
Speaker 4: Through the windows.
Speaker 2: And we've seen that with other killers, Like that's why
Speaker 2: the boys will be boys, or boys are just annoying
Speaker 2: or like, oh, come on, we don't want to ruin
Speaker 2: a guy's life. Like all of these behaviors end up
Speaker 2: being yuff. Like we need to take violence against women
Speaker 2: so much more seriously, to not not only to help women,
Speaker 2: but like to avoid these fucking killers like.
Speaker 1: Kill like harm of animals, peeping tom stuff. It definitely
Speaker 1: is baby steps to a killer.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Oh, after he killed his grandparents, he called his
Speaker 4: mom asking what he should do, and she told him
Speaker 4: to call the cops. So it's like, you hate your mom,
Speaker 4: but you're asking her what to do with these dead pairs.
Speaker 1: Like I guess he's fifteen, it's like what he probably
Speaker 1: just didn't know yet.
Speaker 2: And then they asked like why did you do it?
Speaker 2: And he's, uh, why did you kill your grandma? And
Speaker 2: he said, I just wanted to see what it felt like,
Speaker 2: which I think is classic socio behavior. Yeah, and then
Speaker 2: he's been in jail with Charles Manson and Hubert Mullen,
Speaker 2: and he hated Mullin though, because he was just like
Speaker 2: a killer, like an idiot, like in the show.
Speaker 4: You know, Huang was saying, he's not gonna fucking yeah,
Speaker 4: he's not going to talk to this guy. He's like
Speaker 4: not good enough for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he was annoying this other, this Mullin guy.
Speaker 2: So Kemper just like threw water at him and like
Speaker 2: beat the and everyone was scared of Kemper. He's giant
Speaker 2: and he basically would like give him peanuts to behave.
Speaker 4: So then he started doing things for peanuts, and.
Speaker 2: So he like manipulated Mullen to be like a little
Speaker 2: pavlog peanut dogs, to do whatever he wanted and to behave.
Speaker 4: And again everyone loved him. He's a model in me.
Speaker 2: And then he's also like everyone was like hell yeah
Speaker 2: because this this Mullin guy talk over movies and stuff,
Speaker 2: and they hated on much he talked, and Kemper got
Speaker 2: him in shape with peanuts. But yeah, he's in gen pop,
Speaker 2: which is wild. He helps schedule appointments for the other inmates.
Speaker 2: He makes ceramic cups like Seth Rogan, and he's a
Speaker 2: prolific reader of audio books and he has over five thousand.
Speaker 4: Hours audible dot com baby, and he.
Speaker 2: Runs the prison program for audiobook recordings. But he had
Speaker 2: a stroke in twenty fifteen so he couldn't do it.
Speaker 2: And then in twenty sixteen he had his first behavior
Speaker 2: issue when he refused.
Speaker 4: To year in test.
Speaker 2: But oh, and he also said that he didn't talk
Speaker 2: to the FBI to help them, but he wanted to
Speaker 2: help other people like him and encourage people with his
Speaker 2: rage and problems to not commit the crimes and that
Speaker 2: it's not worth it. And he wanted to be someone
Speaker 2: that they can trust to not kill because it's hard
Speaker 2: and it's hard to stop and it is a horrible
Speaker 2: thing and I keep thinking about it. It is like
Speaker 2: a disgusting thing to take lives. So he was just
Speaker 2: trying to like help other wanna be killers maybe not
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 4: Wow, So that's what he said, again, do we believe
Speaker 4: you know? I don't know. Now he could be totally lying.
Speaker 4: It's just you just don't hear killers talk like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he's been denied parole like ten times,
Speaker 2: and he's up again for it in twenty.
Speaker 4: I cannot believe he's even eligible for parole. Oh yeah, constantly,
Speaker 4: and then he's been waived.
Speaker 1: He has eight life sentences, but I guess not with
Speaker 1: no chance of parole. All right, look, we got to
Speaker 1: go take a little breaky, and then we're going to
Speaker 1: talk to our exciting guest.
Speaker 2: I'm very excited for this guest, obviously. You know I'm
Speaker 2: extra excited when I get involved in the intro. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I would say a fan favorite, a world favorite, an icon,
Speaker 2: and a star. He's been in the giant Jurassic Park franchise.
Speaker 2: I've loved him in the HBO series Oz.
Speaker 1: I've been a huge fan of him and mister Robot,
Speaker 1: and of course you all have been fans of this
Speaker 1: Tony Award winner in his role as George Hwang in SVU.
Speaker 4: Guys, we did talk to the legend bead Wog. Oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, thank you so much for taking the time
Speaker 4: to talk to us. We're so excited to have you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the listeners are going to lose their shit.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We wanted to just start out by letting you know
Speaker 1: that our fans are very very horny, and they are
Speaker 1: specifically very horny for you.
Speaker 5: Of course, why would did I not know that we put.
Speaker 1: We've put up polls before on like who's your favorite,
Speaker 1: and like there's just a lot of Wang love, like
Speaker 1: just a lot.
Speaker 2: Outside of Olivia Benson. You might be the second beloved.
Speaker 1: Because everyone is no, no, no, listen, because there are people
Speaker 1: that hate Stabler and there are people that love Stabler, and.
Speaker 5: You know he splits the vote.
Speaker 1: Yes, so in terms of universal adoration, it's really like
Speaker 1: it is Benson.
Speaker 7: And then you are you talking? I mean really, I
Speaker 7: mean this is silly for me to get into it
Speaker 7: with you, but like, do you mean really? I'm just curious.
Speaker 7: Are you talking about physically? Are you talking about the
Speaker 7: whole persona of the person? What do you mean physically?
Speaker 4: People?
Speaker 1: I mean people literally are like I'm hot for Want,
Speaker 1: like I love him, Like yeah, so's it's.
Speaker 4: A physical thing. It's also I think your character.
Speaker 2: And then I don't know if this is a good
Speaker 2: thing because you know that like the process of the episodes.
Speaker 4: But I take what Huang says is fact.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I often like, actually, incest is not a
Speaker 2: legal if you're over the age of eighteen, and.
Speaker 4: I learned that from you.
Speaker 2: Yeahong, and like the Pika where the boy was licking
Speaker 2: the car, the let off the car, like I say
Speaker 2: that constantly.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, I mean, I mean that was one of
Speaker 7: the great things about it for me is the trust
Speaker 7: in being able to understand that whenever I had to
Speaker 7: say something or I was given something to say that
Speaker 7: I could I could trust that there was a research
Speaker 7: end fact based stuff that went into it. So I
Speaker 7: didn't ever have to like question that this sounds really ridiculous,
Speaker 7: are you sure or anything like that.
Speaker 5: It was. It was reliably well researched, so so that
Speaker 5: is true. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That might be where the love comes from too, because
Speaker 2: the officers, they you know, they'll shoot a person like
Speaker 2: something will happen, but you're always like you and tomorrow
Speaker 2: Attuni are always there.
Speaker 4: With facts, with facts to help the case.
Speaker 5: Yes, shadiness, yes, and then yes that's right. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: mean I do want to.
Speaker 7: I mean, I just I don't know if this is appropriate,
Speaker 7: what what what our what our game plan is for
Speaker 7: this conversation, But I mean, I mean I am fascinated
Speaker 7: in what it is that made him popular because I
Speaker 7: never felt it when I was doing it.
Speaker 5: I just thought, Oh, I'm going to say this, I'm
Speaker 5: going to say that.
Speaker 7: And then and then I realized that people were really
Speaker 7: into him in a kind of big way, like you're
Speaker 7: talking about and I and I like dissecting maybe I'm
Speaker 7: like him in this way. I like trying to figure
Speaker 7: out why they actually feel that way because I'm just
Speaker 7: doing it and when I watch it, and I just
Speaker 7: watched this episode right to kind of and I haven't
Speaker 7: watched the show in a long time, and so it
Speaker 7: was really interesting to say, Oh, I see what it
Speaker 7: is that might be that people might be into. I mean,
Speaker 7: he started, he and he evolved over the years too,
Speaker 7: of course, but I'm interested in that why people are
Speaker 7: really into it. I think he was super confident about it.
Speaker 7: He never was like, oh, I'm not sure, you know.
Speaker 7: He was like, never like that, and he was always
Speaker 7: very like knowledge based. And also he had the thing
Speaker 7: that Olivia has, which is this kind of morality or
Speaker 7: this sense of what's right and you know, doing the
Speaker 7: right thing and doing this something for someone rather than
Speaker 7: just doing it because you're supposed to, you know, because
Speaker 7: it's the law or something like that.
Speaker 1: I think what was your final episode or your final
Speaker 1: episode before you maybe came back for one time, was
Speaker 1: like you were administering a drug to someone that you
Speaker 1: weren't supposed to, but you knew that was the right
Speaker 1: thing to do, you know, So that's an exacting you
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 5: So I guess that really.
Speaker 7: Makes an impression on people, or people really believe that
Speaker 7: in really respond to that, and I like that.
Speaker 2: That's very nice And the confidence is right on the
Speaker 2: money too, because they all hate psychologists for some reason.
Speaker 2: Like but you never that Hohong never like that didn't
Speaker 2: bother him because he knew he was right. He was
Speaker 2: never intimidated by Stabler, who was like shoving people into cabinet.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, right, right, Because I think your character was
Speaker 1: like very early on the mental health bandwagon. Like before
Speaker 1: now everyone's like self care mental health. You know, now
Speaker 1: it's more talked about, but you know, nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 1: two thousand, when the show was starting out, your character
Speaker 1: had all these psychological insights and I think that's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a very female fan base.
Speaker 4: And I think that's like what draws people to your character.
Speaker 7: And there is a real surge or a kind of
Speaker 7: a trend of young female fans of the show who
Speaker 7: entered the field that I hear about all the time,
Speaker 7: that that a young woman will say I watched the
Speaker 7: show and that's what I decided to do with my
Speaker 7: life because I was so taken with the vocation. And
Speaker 7: it's never been a man that said this to me.
Speaker 7: I can't recall a man has ever said it to me.
Speaker 7: I think it's almost always a young woman who is
Speaker 7: just it just opened their heart in a way or something,
Speaker 7: and that's nice, so great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can we talk a little bit about like your history,
Speaker 1: like how you got into it, so, like you originally
Speaker 1: were on just for like two episodes in season two.
Speaker 5: I think it was four maybe, Oh okay.
Speaker 7: I think originally they said we're going to try this
Speaker 7: out for four of singletons.
Speaker 4: From what we looked up for was when you became
Speaker 4: a regular and yeah, doing something.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I did you know they signed me up to
Speaker 5: do four.
Speaker 7: Hey, we want to try this new character out and
Speaker 7: it's for and and Neil Bhaer had just come into
Speaker 7: the show, and Neil Baar was was hell bent to
Speaker 7: bring a medical perspective to the show, being a doctor himself,
Speaker 7: and thinking that the medical encycle logical perspective, it's going
Speaker 7: to be valuable to this particular show, and he was right.
Speaker 7: I think I feel like that's something that's not as
Speaker 7: present in the show as it used to be. And
Speaker 7: while I was there, it felt really like an part
Speaker 7: of the identity of the show for at the time
Speaker 7: that I was there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're right, I didn't realize that they kind of
Speaker 4: have moved away from that a little bit.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And it's interesting because you know, you start out
Speaker 7: still the opening of the show is still exactly the
Speaker 7: same as it ever was if unless I'm wrong, and
Speaker 7: that is saying, you know what, these are like really
Speaker 7: intense people and they did they did this terrible things
Speaker 7: and so what goes hand in hand with that is
Speaker 7: why how or you know all of that and so
Speaker 7: so Neil was very keen and kind of creating that
Speaker 7: character in that perspective, and they did continue on with it,
Speaker 7: and they picked up the option and I was given
Speaker 7: a contract.
Speaker 5: And that is that the answer to the question that
Speaker 5: you're asked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just I was sort of just wondering if, like,
Speaker 1: did you know that you were going to be on
Speaker 1: for or did you know, like that it was sort
Speaker 1: of like a trial run for a longer part.
Speaker 5: Yes, and so okay, and I knew was a trial
Speaker 5: run for a longer part.
Speaker 7: And I my son had just been born, and I
Speaker 7: didn't want to leave New York. And I felt I
Speaker 7: was the luckiest thing ever if I were to be
Speaker 7: able to ask to be stay, if I didn't you know,
Speaker 7: blow it or whatever. And so I I was. It
Speaker 7: was the luckiest thing that could ever happen to a person. Actually,
Speaker 7: I was able to get the closest thing to what
Speaker 7: you call what is a normal job.
Speaker 5: You know, it was like, it's not like.
Speaker 7: A real and normal job, nine to five job, And
Speaker 7: as an actor, that's just something that doesn't happen. And
Speaker 7: particularly now with in cable and all of that stuff,
Speaker 7: there's no such thing as a twenty three episode season,
Speaker 7: and that is what ensures a real kind of steadiness
Speaker 7: that is really great when you're you know, starting family
Speaker 7: and stuff. And so that was really fortunate for me,
Speaker 7: and I'm extremely grateful to everybody that made that happen.
Speaker 7: Of course because of the historic the role that it
Speaker 7: plays in my family's history.
Speaker 1: And then like along with starting a family, like were
Speaker 1: you able to also sort of stay in the Broadway
Speaker 1: like flow of things, since the show could kind of maybe.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they like work around your schedule
Speaker 1: or you don't do.
Speaker 5: Nights or yes and no.
Speaker 7: I mean, I believe I was doing a Broadway show
Speaker 7: in two thousand and four, and I was already on
Speaker 7: the show in two thousand and two, wasn't I It
Speaker 7: was two thousand and two, I think, And so I
Speaker 7: did I know that.
Speaker 5: If I look at my resume and look.
Speaker 7: At my own biography, I see, Oh, I did this
Speaker 7: Broadway show in two thousand and three slash two thousand
Speaker 7: and four, So there was some reason that I was
Speaker 7: able to do that. Eventually, when I got deeper into
Speaker 7: the show, I was able to wangle out of them
Speaker 7: an ability to do a play like I did a
Speaker 7: play at least once in the mid auts. And that
Speaker 7: meant that they had to give me what they'd call
Speaker 7: it a herd out, which is that half an hour
Speaker 7: before the show, I'd have to be at the theater
Speaker 7: at a certain part of the town, and they'd have
Speaker 7: to shoot me out or make sure that I got out,
Speaker 7: which they really don't like doing. But they I'd been
Speaker 7: there long enough, I think then, and I think they
Speaker 7: knew that my part was not like the biggest part
Speaker 7: in the show, and that they could they we had
Speaker 7: been able to work around things up until that point,
Speaker 7: so they allowed me to do it. Another thing I'm
Speaker 7: super grateful for because it really kept my life much
Speaker 7: more interesting and I was able to kind of do
Speaker 7: the things that really work for me while I was
Speaker 7: doing this other thing that did kind of feel like
Speaker 7: a little bit more like a job, and so that
Speaker 7: was great for me. Well, there's also you know, it's
Speaker 7: shot in almost like a school year. You have like
Speaker 7: a summer off, and so there are lots of things.
Speaker 7: I did lots of shows and plays during the time
Speaker 7: that I was on the show because I could do
Speaker 7: a regional production of a play somewhere or musical somewhere
Speaker 7: in the country elsewhere in the country during the time.
Speaker 5: That was the hiatus amazing.
Speaker 2: Well, so we talked to Margaret Choe a few months
Speaker 2: ago and she said, we were like, if you were
Speaker 2: to come back as a different character, who would it be.
Speaker 2: And she said Huang's sister, oh, and that you do
Speaker 2: have a sister and she would love to play your sister.
Speaker 7: Oh.
Speaker 4: I love it any chance you two guys would come back.
Speaker 1: And yeah, what are the chances of Huang's return? And
Speaker 1: then we have to get Chow to be your sister.
Speaker 7: You know, there's no there I have no barrier to
Speaker 7: coming back at all. I mean there's no I mean
Speaker 7: I wouldn't want to come back in a kind of
Speaker 7: super binding way, you know, like I I love the
Speaker 7: way it is now when when Warren Light feels like
Speaker 7: there's a there's an opening or there's a reason, and
Speaker 7: then then he'll have me come back.
Speaker 5: And I've come back maybe twice, I think.
Speaker 7: And there was another opportunity that just kind of came
Speaker 7: and went because of COVID. It was really impossible to
Speaker 7: kind of just bring somebody in. And you know, you
Speaker 7: have so much has to go into bringing actors in
Speaker 7: and off on and off a show now, or has
Speaker 7: been in the last few months, that a lot more
Speaker 7: preparation has to go into it. They can't just kind
Speaker 7: of decide, oh, let's do it two weeks from now,
Speaker 7: let's make sure that we have a hung scene going on.
Speaker 7: They can't do it as easily as they used to
Speaker 7: do so, but the time will come around again when
Speaker 7: that that is able to happen, and of course I
Speaker 7: would do it.
Speaker 5: Of course I would do especially if Margaret was going
Speaker 5: to be my sister.
Speaker 1: And they need to do Margaret as a serial killer
Speaker 1: because she said she wanted to play serial who's also yeah,
Speaker 1: you can get brought back because you have double insight, yeah,
Speaker 1: your psychological background, and.
Speaker 5: Then okay, that's okay.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm just working on a specscript.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm into it. I would do anything with Margaret ever, ever, ever, ever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, She's fantastic.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So we both listened to your list culture resta
Speaker 2: you did Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm a big fan
Speaker 2: of Bowen.
Speaker 4: And Mattson all the time.
Speaker 2: While I'm getting my steps in, and you did mention
Speaker 2: that you wish there was like more about your character,
Speaker 2: and we knew more and there was more background and
Speaker 2: like depths shown throughout the years, and I was wondering
Speaker 2: if you had created any of that that you wish
Speaker 2: was shown, or like what background you had for the character.
Speaker 5: I didn't.
Speaker 7: Actually, I might more now that I'm a different I
Speaker 7: mean I've evolved my process or whatever.
Speaker 5: I feel like I might.
Speaker 7: I might be different now, But you know, I think
Speaker 7: I was kind of aware of the show that I
Speaker 7: was on, like that, this is the show that I'm on,
Speaker 7: and this is what is these are the parameters of
Speaker 7: the show. And ultimately I did kind of whine about
Speaker 7: it to myself and to my inner circle about you know,
Speaker 7: about it it kind of having an identity that was
Speaker 7: very consistent, which I think the fans love and everybody loves.
Speaker 7: But for me, it wasn't super stimulating. And as you
Speaker 7: probably can tell, I'm extremely grateful for it, and I
Speaker 7: don't mean to be whiny about it, but I did
Speaker 7: feel as an actor, as a creative person, it didn't
Speaker 7: challenge me that much, and so I was I tended
Speaker 7: to be kind of very neutral about it, you know.
Speaker 7: I was like, well, you know, this is what I'm
Speaker 7: doing right now, and it's very very it is a
Speaker 7: very specific set of things that I'm achieving by doing it,
Speaker 7: and then I'm really happy.
Speaker 5: With that, and that's perfectly good.
Speaker 7: But so therefore, to make a short story long, I
Speaker 7: felt like there wasn't a lot of room for it,
Speaker 7: and I also I didn't want to make things up
Speaker 7: that were not going to be right. And the perfect
Speaker 7: example of this is like the eleventh hour, when he
Speaker 7: came out. I was like, oh, I wasn't. Nobody we
Speaker 7: didn't talk about this, like where did that come from?
Speaker 7: And there was a there was a sense, and that
Speaker 7: was when I kind of went, oh, you guys, you know,
Speaker 7: I felt kind of like that was I don't know
Speaker 7: how to describe it.
Speaker 5: It wasn't a detail that felt that organic to me.
Speaker 7: I mean, I and at the same time, I'm all
Speaker 7: all for the what's the difference.
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter at all.
Speaker 7: I mean, gay people are are all different kinds of people,
Speaker 7: and this person could certainly be a gay person.
Speaker 5: There's no reason for them not to be.
Speaker 7: But the way that I had thought in my mind
Speaker 7: he was, and that from some some very minor comments
Speaker 7: throughout about dating girls or something like that.
Speaker 5: I didn't didn't. I wasn't there with that. It wasn't on.
Speaker 7: It was a surprise to me, and it was a
Speaker 7: surprise that kind of served that particular storyline. It was like,
Speaker 7: it was kind of convenient. I think, yeah, but that
Speaker 7: is the kind of show that I was on. That
Speaker 7: was the kind of show that at that moment in time,
Speaker 7: very late in the game, they could do that and
Speaker 7: it was okay. But they did do that because nothing
Speaker 7: else was ever discussed, Like we they it was able
Speaker 7: to do that because all the details were left out
Speaker 7: prior to that, So then the opportun unities are greater.
Speaker 7: And they left their options open in some ways by
Speaker 7: not being more specific about who he was or where
Speaker 7: he came from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like now, if your character was
Speaker 1: like that was now or in a more recent season,
Speaker 1: I think they would have gotten more into it. They
Speaker 1: seem to now be getting more into like one character's
Speaker 1: gambling addiction, one character's issue with this, you know, like
Speaker 1: they definitely get more into the personal lives of the characters.
Speaker 1: I feel like where at the beginning, it was like
Speaker 1: you just saw a little bit of Stabler in Benson's
Speaker 1: personal life, but everyone.
Speaker 4: Else was sort of like just outside of that.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, and so I see what you're saying completely,
Speaker 1: because that was what the show was doing at that time.
Speaker 4: Was like, you know, and I.
Speaker 7: Think I felt like, oh, I want that, I want
Speaker 7: a little bit of personal about me there, And there
Speaker 7: was there are moments where there were quong heavy episodes,
Speaker 7: and yet it never felt to me like enough or
Speaker 7: it never felt like as much as it could be.
Speaker 5: But that's it.
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't really, I don't have much more
Speaker 7: of a complaint about it than that. That's just that is,
Speaker 7: as I said before, the way that the identity of
Speaker 7: the show, and it would be dumb of me to
Speaker 7: buck against the identity of this bigger show that I
Speaker 7: am a part of by thinking other that it should
Speaker 7: be any other way than the way it was.
Speaker 2: Right. Another thing I keep saying, I've it's been in
Speaker 2: my head since the last Culture Lisa's episode. I keep going,
Speaker 2: we love a moral queen, just to nobody, over and
Speaker 2: over again.
Speaker 5: That's exactly right.
Speaker 7: I mean, he they have I don't remember who said
Speaker 7: it it was bad, right, I don't know. Their phraseology
Speaker 7: is just fucking amazing. They're just great.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they have like their own lexicons, and.
Speaker 7: You know exactly what he's talking about when he says it,
Speaker 7: So it's not like some foreign language or anything like that.
Speaker 7: But it's it's not exactly how I would have put it.
Speaker 7: But that's exactly true, and it's true. She's the moral
Speaker 7: center and she you know, it's great. That is the
Speaker 7: engine that drives the show. I think his victims' rights
Speaker 7: and the under of victims' rights and what we're doing
Speaker 7: for these victims and how we're serving them as a
Speaker 7: community of professionals.
Speaker 5: I think that's an undercurrent and.
Speaker 7: The show that is perceivable to their average audience member
Speaker 7: on some level.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Peter Scanovino, who's a current detective, he said, the reason
Speaker 2: women love the show so much is because women are
Speaker 2: listened to, and that's like in it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a rare thing.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's right. It's like porn for women.
Speaker 1: Yes, well yeah, And I think it's interesting what you
Speaker 1: said before too, about how your character was also like yeah,
Speaker 1: more sensitive, listen to people and kind of got to that,
Speaker 1: like whereas you had munch with conspiracy theories, iced tease,
Speaker 1: this hard ass Maloney's like, you know, toxic masculinity personified.
Speaker 4: So like your.
Speaker 1: Character is sort of like this, like other it's like
Speaker 1: another call into Olivia.
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yes.
Speaker 7: And of course the Olivia George relationship was the only
Speaker 7: relationship I had in the show, and so that was
Speaker 7: of great comfort to me actually, and of great you know,
Speaker 7: I was really into that, and and we always made
Speaker 7: jokes about it because there was hardly.
Speaker 5: Ever a moment when we were really.
Speaker 7: It happens on very specific occasions that our relationship is
Speaker 7: even a little bit you know, dealt with or illuminated.
Speaker 5: And yet it really kind of carried me through the
Speaker 5: whole thing.
Speaker 7: That was the that was the most interesting and fun
Speaker 7: part of the character for me is his relationship to her.
Speaker 4: Do you Are you and Marishka still in touch?
Speaker 1: Not?
Speaker 5: Yes and no.
Speaker 7: I mean we're in touch, but really not in a
Speaker 7: daily way or in a thing. And I do miss
Speaker 7: that because she's just kind of such a great person.
Speaker 7: I'm in touch more with Stephanie. Stephanie and so Stephanie
Speaker 7: and I kind of but Stephanie and Murushka are also
Speaker 7: very tight, so you know, peripherally, there's a kind of
Speaker 7: keeping track of people in that way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that seems like a scoop that I liked.
Speaker 1: Well, we talked to Cat Craigan and he had just
Speaker 1: texted Mrshka for her birthday, so we're just interested.
Speaker 7: Yes, right, I just texted Stephanie today because I was
Speaker 7: at a restaurant and I said, have you been to
Speaker 7: this restaurant? This is an incredible restaurant, And of course
Speaker 7: she had been there. She knows every single restaurant in
Speaker 7: New York. That's what was it. Why on w A
Speaker 7: y A N in the Lower east Side or the
Speaker 7: kind of the Lower east Side is Chinatown.
Speaker 4: Yeah, next trip to next trip to NYC.
Speaker 2: So your first episode is peak and yes, wild? Were
Speaker 2: you like, holy shit, they're really throwing me into this?
Speaker 2: What have I gotten myself into? Like the end, he's
Speaker 2: just in bed with his he killed someone, he's like
Speaker 2: licking his brush.
Speaker 5: Ye everywhere.
Speaker 4: It was like such a wild first episode.
Speaker 7: I think, you know, this is really interesting for me
Speaker 7: because watching the show again in a way, and I
Speaker 7: haven't watched the show at all for years and years,
Speaker 7: and then kind of transporting myself back in time to
Speaker 7: my state of mind at the time. I don't think
Speaker 7: I was as aware of what you know, like you said,
Speaker 7: what I was getting myself into. I was kind of
Speaker 7: just professionally kind of committing myself to the thing. I
Speaker 7: didn't really first of all, the character, it felt very
Speaker 7: procedural to me. I didn't know what his personality was.
Speaker 7: I just knew what his job was. And so as
Speaker 7: as I knew, as I continue to understand what his
Speaker 7: job was, then his behavior and his demeanor became clearer
Speaker 7: because he spoke a certain way than they always wrote
Speaker 7: that very consistently, and that's how the character kind of grew.
Speaker 7: I wasn't like, oh, he's a guy who dot dot dot,
Speaker 7: or this is the character that from a more personal standpoint,
Speaker 7: he was more clinical. It was more like I was
Speaker 7: serving a purpose and I could understand the role based
Speaker 7: upon serving the purpose.
Speaker 5: So then when I look back.
Speaker 7: On it, I think, oh, wow, there was this, And
Speaker 7: maybe that's what created for me a sense of not
Speaker 7: leaning into how depraved people were, allowing me to be
Speaker 7: neutral about it and clinical about it, because I never
Speaker 7: kind of went, oh, god, you guys, this is really
Speaker 7: like upsetting. I didn't really ever play it that way.
Speaker 7: I never felt like the need to do that, because
Speaker 7: it just fell like, oh no, he's kind of a clinician,
Speaker 7: and he's also on some level a therapist, and so
Speaker 7: he's always going to be kind of neutral and objective.
Speaker 7: And I was maybe just starting my own therapy at
Speaker 7: the time where I realized that objectivity and a person
Speaker 7: not expressing their actual opinion in a therapy session was
Speaker 7: so valuable and so interesting and so good and.
Speaker 5: For a character.
Speaker 7: And I'm now to this day will watch therapy scenes
Speaker 7: and other shows and think, oh, I think you're showing
Speaker 7: what you think about what's actually happening in this in
Speaker 7: a way that's not actually what would actually happen, because
Speaker 7: therapists go out of their way to just be really
Speaker 7: kind of blank and say, well, what do what does
Speaker 7: that make you feel? As opposed to you know, doesn't
Speaker 7: that make you feel upset? They would never say doesn't
Speaker 7: that make you feel?
Speaker 5: It's set?
Speaker 7: They'd say, how does it make you feel? There's a
Speaker 7: very slight difference, but I think it is a big
Speaker 7: difference in George's whole persona that he bases everything on
Speaker 7: that kind of neutrality. To answer your question, I didn't
Speaker 7: really feel like I was. I didn't understand as I
Speaker 7: do now looking back, the who of it as I
Speaker 7: do now looking back on it. And you always watch
Speaker 7: you often look at things from your past past work
Speaker 7: and kind of judge it and say you do it
Speaker 7: differently or whatever.
Speaker 5: But I was a little naive about it.
Speaker 7: I was like, kind of, Okay, so this is the
Speaker 7: part he's the analyst to this kind of into the
Speaker 7: mind of and the killer or whatever or the perpetrator,
Speaker 7: And can I understand that he'll come in and report
Speaker 7: on these things? And I was, you know, experimenting with
Speaker 7: all these crazy things, like I had actually had a
Speaker 7: a British accent in the first episode, and then we
Speaker 7: I redubbed the whole episode.
Speaker 4: Oh, I was like, I don't really. We also noticed
Speaker 4: that you had glasses.
Speaker 7: In the beginning, and they just it was just the
Speaker 7: first episode and then it's like no, no, no glasses,
Speaker 7: bye bye, And I was, I was, you know, I
Speaker 7: come from This is a very interesting Now that you're
Speaker 7: pointing this out, I'm realizing what happened actually is that
Speaker 7: I have I came from a background of being what
Speaker 7: I would call a character actor, an actor that is
Speaker 7: not not not mining my own personality, but looking for
Speaker 7: another personality to play. And I had done this in
Speaker 7: a lot of movies prior to this, Like my work
Speaker 7: was generated in the theater certainly as well by adopting characters.
Speaker 7: And so here I came into the first day of
Speaker 7: this series, my first of four like trial episodes, and
Speaker 7: I wanted glasses. I wanted to have an accent, and
Speaker 7: I wanted to create a person. And then after that
Speaker 7: first episode, I was talked out of it, but I
Speaker 7: also talked myself out of it, going, oh, I see
Speaker 7: it's just me on a procedural and I just can
Speaker 7: just kind of like ride the wave of me talking
Speaker 7: the way that I talk and looking the way that
Speaker 7: I look, And that was refreshing for me for a while.
Speaker 5: And then I.
Speaker 7: Stayed on the show as long as I did, and
Speaker 7: then when I finally moved on from the show, it
Speaker 7: took me and my representatives and in my career a
Speaker 7: couple of years to get my footing back where I
Speaker 7: have now again, I feel like I'm I'm back in
Speaker 7: character land, which I am more comfortable in and where
Speaker 7: I where each time I go into a new job,
Speaker 7: I'm looking for the glasses and the accent, like I
Speaker 7: really am embracing that again and that I see that
Speaker 7: other people are.
Speaker 5: Hiring me that way.
Speaker 7: But for a minute after coming out of a procedural,
Speaker 7: people are like, well, what do you bring to the table?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 4: Not?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 7: And that was really interesting. I kind of became this
Speaker 7: procedural guy for eleven years and then had to kind
Speaker 7: of figure out how to get back and find myself again.
Speaker 7: And I think that was one of the reasons why
Speaker 7: I did move on from it, because I didn't feel
Speaker 7: like that was really myself as a performer.
Speaker 1: So we're having you on obviously because we want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about all two hundred episodes in the show.
Speaker 1: So if we can just start from the top, No,
Speaker 1: we we actually this is probably going to be part
Speaker 1: of the episode Execution, which we picked because we thought
Speaker 1: that was like sort of like ahuong heavy episode, like where.
Speaker 4: You're got to a wall. Yeah, you got thrown into
Speaker 4: a wall.
Speaker 1: You got to sort of you got to sort of
Speaker 1: really like big time Christopher Maloney, which is fun, like,
Speaker 1: you know, he thinks he's sort of running this serial
Speaker 1: killer interrogation and you're like, I'm in charge.
Speaker 4: So do you remember anything about that episode or you
Speaker 4: watched it.
Speaker 7: Before you Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm you know, I'm not
Speaker 7: messing around here. I thank you, And that's why I
Speaker 7: was late coming to you. I just full disclosure to
Speaker 7: everyone out there. I came fifteen minutes late because I said, oh,
Speaker 7: I need fifteen more minutes to finish this show.
Speaker 5: The best of it was a.
Speaker 7: Fifty for the second time, and I remember a lot
Speaker 7: about it. One it was I don't know if you've
Speaker 7: gone over this with people before, you probably have SVU
Speaker 7: at least in certain times of its history has been
Speaker 7: famous for really long hours, and especially on a Friday night,
Speaker 7: because the turnaround of time that you have to give
Speaker 7: the crew off. If you start at five o'clock in
Speaker 7: the morning on a Monday and you end at seven
Speaker 7: point thirty, then you have to turn the crew around.
Speaker 7: So then the next day you don't start at five thirty,
Speaker 7: you start at seven. And then by Friday, if you
Speaker 7: are shooting in a leisurely fashion and you're not on
Speaker 7: the schedule, you could be starting at ten or eleven
Speaker 7: in the morning or noon and going until two or
Speaker 7: three in the morning. And on Saturday it's called a
Speaker 7: friturday on our in.
Speaker 5: The SBO and SVU.
Speaker 7: For a stretch of the time that I was there,
Speaker 7: it was neutroy and it really wears people down. It's
Speaker 7: very exhausting, but there's a kind of in the trenches
Speaker 7: feeling to it, you know.
Speaker 5: And I know that these scenes.
Speaker 7: With Nick Chinlin in the interrogation room were at one
Speaker 7: o'clock in the morning what I imagine was a Friday night.
Speaker 7: It might have been a Thursday night, but it was
Speaker 7: either a Thursday or Friday night, and it's one I.
Speaker 5: Remember thinking for some reason.
Speaker 7: Oh, I'm never going to forget how this feels, which
Speaker 7: is I'm exhausted and we're having to play this really
Speaker 7: kind of intense scene. And there was a sense somehow,
Speaker 7: and I think you can sense it in the final
Speaker 7: cut of this show that it's a unique episode, like
Speaker 7: those scenes with him are more like a movie than
Speaker 7: there than they're in a TV show, or more like
Speaker 7: an interrogation scene in a film like way than even
Speaker 7: the regular interrogation scenes that we have in SVU. And
Speaker 7: so there was that as part of it. And then
Speaker 7: Nick Chinlin, do you have you ever had him on?
Speaker 1: No, we haven't, but we know he was originally auditioning
Speaker 1: to be the role of Stabler.
Speaker 7: Yes, and that was kind of That's kind of the
Speaker 7: trivia that I think is the most the greatest trivia
Speaker 7: about that episode. And you can see, you know what
Speaker 7: where that might have come from.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very like it's very Silence of the Land.
Speaker 1: It is very like very it's it reminds me of
Speaker 1: sort of the scenes that you see in mind Hunter,
Speaker 1: which is like the case that we think this episode's
Speaker 1: based off of, is like the interview with ed ed Kemper,
Speaker 1: like a famous serial killer and like there's videos of that,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it is more.
Speaker 4: Cinematic almost this episode.
Speaker 1: Well, how about the stuff like getting your head semmed
Speaker 1: against the What was that you did?
Speaker 7: You?
Speaker 4: Did you have a stunt person or like how were they?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 7: No, they I did it and I and I learned,
Speaker 7: I mean I knew how to exactly how to have
Speaker 7: a little bit of experience, like you know, how to
Speaker 7: make yourself look like you're getting slammed against the wall
Speaker 7: when you're really not, and you have to work with
Speaker 7: the other actor to do that. And they always have
Speaker 7: somebody there addressed like you, to step in at any moment,
Speaker 7: and then they always ask you what do you feel
Speaker 7: feel about this?
Speaker 5: What's your comfort level actually doing it yourself?
Speaker 7: And there are times when they want to use a
Speaker 7: stun person and you go, oh, I really really want
Speaker 7: to do this. And what I think we thought at
Speaker 7: this point is, well, it really will be good if
Speaker 7: it looks.
Speaker 5: Like it's my face.
Speaker 7: You can see my face there, and you really can
Speaker 7: you can see that it's my face.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And then I remember thinking, oh, my mom's going
Speaker 5: to hate this.
Speaker 7: This is like really intense, you know, and other people,
Speaker 7: like I remember people calling me or texting me after
Speaker 7: it came on, probably calling me and saying, oh my god,
Speaker 7: that's that was really intense. I didn't like seeing that,
Speaker 7: you know, people that know me and like me. So
Speaker 7: there was that, and I look back at it now
Speaker 7: and I always felt to be a little self critical
Speaker 7: that there were some really subtle things in that show
Speaker 7: that we didn't actually nail, and that could have been
Speaker 7: if it was a film, we might have been able
Speaker 7: to kind of explore. One of them is the moment
Speaker 7: before in the opening of this show where he's about
Speaker 7: to snap and I see that he's about to snap,
Speaker 7: and then I warned Stabler and the whole thing goes
Speaker 7: crazy because he does in fact snap, and the warning
Speaker 7: signs I don't think are as clear as as they
Speaker 7: were indicated in the script, and we weren't all kind of.
Speaker 5: We could have used a little bit.
Speaker 7: More rehearsal is what I think we could have done.
Speaker 7: But I think it actually plays quite beautifully. But I
Speaker 7: do watch it and go, oh, yeah, there's that thing
Speaker 7: where he says watch out for these things, and then
Speaker 7: we see those things actually happening, and then we start
Speaker 7: getting nervous because we know that, oh, my gosh, he's
Speaker 7: going to start unraveling and Okay, I'm going to go
Speaker 7: over and push the button on the wall and we're
Speaker 7: going to get the people to come in. And that
Speaker 7: somehow never had the same impact that I pictured it
Speaker 7: happening in my mind. But I still think it's really great,
Speaker 7: and I think that Nick gave a great performance and
Speaker 7: was really appropriately kind of Hannibal lectorish.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you really quickly about this
Speaker 1: episode where because like you have this really interesting episode
Speaker 1: with Stabler too, like because you know, he'll try to
Speaker 1: sort of put you down because he's not into psychologists
Speaker 1: like Lisa mentioned or he's not into psychiatry, and then
Speaker 1: you can sort of stand up to him, but then
Speaker 1: you're you've also been this like shoulder for him to
Speaker 1: cry on in many different episodes. We just did fault
Speaker 1: recently the episode with Lou Diamond Phillips where he like
Speaker 1: murders a child and Elliott's you know, moments away from
Speaker 1: saving the child and he goes to Huang like that's
Speaker 1: who he goes to for like his yeah, like.
Speaker 4: You know, to talk out his feelings.
Speaker 1: So I was just wondering, like, what was your relationship
Speaker 1: like with like with like h Chris Maloney and like.
Speaker 4: You know, well and you had known him for a
Speaker 4: long time. Yeah, oh yeah, you.
Speaker 7: Had known him for a long time. And I love him.
Speaker 7: I think he's a very special person. Actually, he's a
Speaker 7: he's a very He presents a certain thing. He certainly
Speaker 7: presents the certain things on those on these two shows,
Speaker 7: and he's aware of that presence, and he's aware of
Speaker 7: the power of that, and so as a result, he
Speaker 7: undercuts it with humor. And he undercuts all of that
Speaker 7: intenseness with a kind of boyish kind of humor, like
Speaker 7: a kind of you know, like a silliness actually, and
Speaker 7: and and on the set. And he is famous kind
Speaker 7: of for creating a sense of joeviality on the set
Speaker 7: when all these crazy things are happening, you know, when
Speaker 7: all these terrible things are happening in the show. And
Speaker 7: in a way that's that's very endearing. And I always
Speaker 7: liked playing scenes with him, and I certainly always liked
Speaker 7: in the show whenever somebody came to me personally, which
Speaker 7: happened with mostly with with Olivia and mostly with Elliott
Speaker 7: a little bit. I don't know if anybody else really
Speaker 7: actually did it that much. But when that happened, I
Speaker 7: always felt, oh good, like this is a chance for
Speaker 7: me to be a person and to do not be
Speaker 7: relating this ULTI facts or you know, research or whatever
Speaker 7: my training. And yet my training of course plays a
Speaker 7: role and actually helping somebody kind of get through something,
Speaker 7: whatever it might be. And I loved those kinds of scenes.
Speaker 7: I love, love love them. I was better in those
Speaker 7: scenes than I was in the clinical scenes. I think
Speaker 7: whenever somebody asked me for my advice or or I
Speaker 7: was able to say, hey, are you okay?
Speaker 5: That always is better.
Speaker 7: So I don't remember specifically the day that we shot
Speaker 7: any of those scenes with Chris, but I do remember
Speaker 7: it sincerely, remember enjoying those scenes and going, oh, look
Speaker 7: at us.
Speaker 5: We have a scene. We're having a scene together.
Speaker 7: And now the actors do this all the time, where
Speaker 7: they go, oh look at us, we're in a scene together.
Speaker 7: We haven't been in a scene all season, and that's
Speaker 7: always a kind of fun thing to notice and enjoy
Speaker 7: and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Do you have any thoughts on his new asses fame,
Speaker 2: his butts all over.
Speaker 7: The internet as much as me, I'm not only the
Speaker 7: internet as much as you. But all I can say
Speaker 7: is I know exactly.
Speaker 5: I mean, I I'm.
Speaker 7: Guessing what you're talking about. And I'm gonna say, well,
Speaker 7: what has taken so long?
Speaker 5: Really? Right?
Speaker 7: Any of us who watched the first five years of
Speaker 7: and you know, and and again I will say, I
Speaker 7: will throw him under the bus, right, I mean, I
Speaker 7: have no problem throwing him. He's so aware of this
Speaker 7: and he will stick it in your face.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 1: He's been like responding to people on Twitter, people asking
Speaker 1: him like, how do you have these big cakes?
Speaker 4: And he like writes.
Speaker 7: Back, yeah, oh, he'll tell you. I mean, it's a
Speaker 7: formula and if you want to do it, you could
Speaker 7: have cakes like that too. But it is a lot
Speaker 7: of work. And he's a very disciplined guy. And you know,
Speaker 7: kudos to him for owning it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 7: And here we are, you know, we're where's sixty? You know,
Speaker 7: so you know this is at the time of your
Speaker 7: life when.
Speaker 1: Which I thought I thought was a vicious online rumor
Speaker 1: about you. That makes no sense to me that you're sixty.
Speaker 7: Well thanks, I mean, yeah, I think Chris and I
Speaker 7: are basically the same age.
Speaker 1: And hear him too, yeahah, you both look like I
Speaker 1: don't know, nothing's changed.
Speaker 7: Well I know, no, you're wrong, because I watched this.
Speaker 7: I just watched the show and I think, yes, plenty
Speaker 7: has changed. And I'm watching it.
Speaker 5: It's me.
Speaker 7: I'm watching my own face and watching Stephanie, and I'm
Speaker 7: watching Chris and I'm watching Merchigan her little pixie haircut,
Speaker 7: and I'm going, wow, look at this people.
Speaker 5: Who are those people? And it's wonderful, It's very nice.
Speaker 4: So what are you working on now?
Speaker 1: I know you just I think you just wrapped on
Speaker 1: Nora from Queens another season of Normal Queens, and I.
Speaker 7: Do love that show, and that has been really a
Speaker 7: good show for me and to me. And you know,
Speaker 7: the first step is the first season I enjoyed very much,
Speaker 7: and I enjoyed the second season even more. Getting to
Speaker 7: know all these people even better and loving them and
Speaker 7: becoming closer to them has been a big part of that.
Speaker 7: But also my involvement in the show has deepened, and
Speaker 7: my role in the show in some ways has deepened,
Speaker 7: and so and I directed an episode this year, and
Speaker 7: so I'm super into it.
Speaker 5: I highly recommend it.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's I'm not sure what the crossover from
Speaker 7: s you to nor from the Queens is. But if
Speaker 7: you are so inclined, I would I would tell people not.
Speaker 4: I bet it's not small. I mean a lot of things.
Speaker 1: People that listen to our podcast at least like comedy, yes,
Speaker 1: work comedians, yes.
Speaker 7: And you talk about Bowen and Bowen's our touchstone, right,
Speaker 7: are our.
Speaker 4: Comment right, He's our common denominator.
Speaker 1: And I've I've worked with Aquafina once before and she
Speaker 1: was lovely and so great and funny.
Speaker 2: And I also loved hearing you on Less Culture says
Speaker 2: talk about how nice it was to be able to
Speaker 2: have relatability with your co stars in a way that
Speaker 2: you haven't been able to before such a nice large
Speaker 2: Asian cast like Bone's talking about some kind of mushrooms
Speaker 2: and that like he's never been on a set where
Speaker 2: like everyone's eating the mushrooms.
Speaker 4: That's right, And I just thought that was beautiful.
Speaker 7: Yes, it is beautiful, and it's it's something that I
Speaker 7: think is really valuable for someone like going to point
Speaker 7: out because people that don't have that experience, or people
Speaker 7: can relate to it in their own sphere in one
Speaker 7: way or another, women or or people of a certain
Speaker 7: age or whatever. It is that when you're in a
Speaker 7: group of people in which you can all overlap with
Speaker 7: some kind of experience or some kind of commonality, then
Speaker 7: there's a bond that occurs, whether you want to or not.
Speaker 7: And so with Asian people, and it's particularly with Asian
Speaker 7: people in the media in television, where we feel a
Speaker 7: little bit left out. Sometimes that cohesion is quite powerful. Actually,
Speaker 7: it's like, Wow, I didn't even know I was missing this,
Speaker 7: and now I realize how robbed I feel that I
Speaker 7: haven't had this every day of my life, this whole
Speaker 7: mushrooms conversation, this whole idea that I can be. I
Speaker 7: have shorthand with people. Shorthand is part of.
Speaker 2: It, I think.
Speaker 4: And do you want to direct more?
Speaker 7: I do. Yeah, I've always been a dire. I directed
Speaker 7: when I was you know, theater and everything. Back when
Speaker 7: I was in high school, I had this great relationship
Speaker 7: with a teacher who encouraged me to do lots of
Speaker 7: different things, and then, as luck would have it, I
Speaker 7: concentrated on being an actor really, to be quite honest,
Speaker 7: And it is only now that I'm like saying no,
Speaker 7: but I really want to be doing these other things.
Speaker 7: And I've never really been able to concentrate on them.
Speaker 7: So being able to do that on the Aquafina Show
Speaker 7: was really really great for me. Really kind of it
Speaker 7: felt like a door opening kind of.
Speaker 1: Liza, I don't know. I'm still shocked and stunned what
Speaker 1: I mean. We just I'm so excited. People have been
Speaker 1: talking to us about getting bed Wong on the show,
Speaker 1: and I'm just so excited we were able to do it.
Speaker 1: And he is a dream person. We could have talked
Speaker 1: to him for so much longer.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I also like that we had to like he didn't
Speaker 2: let us off the hook, and he was like, why
Speaker 2: do people like me? I need to know the exact reasons,
Speaker 2: so I like to do it. I liked that. That
Speaker 2: was that was really fun. No, He's so good And
Speaker 2: I love people where you could tell they love their
Speaker 2: craft and what they do and are like so thoughtful
Speaker 2: and so giving with their time and answers. And I've
Speaker 2: just been obsessed with him for decades. It is crazy
Speaker 2: to be like you were and father, You've been in
Speaker 2: my life for decades. Yeah, but I guess so many
Speaker 2: of the sv you cast has but yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And I have to say, always nice when a guest
Speaker 1: rewatches an episode, their episode that we're going to talk about,
Speaker 1: always nice when they take the time, and I.
Speaker 2: Love that BEADI also knows that George Huang is the truth,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I thought he was going
Speaker 2: to school me and be like, please stop taking what
Speaker 2: he says is fact.
Speaker 4: But I love that he was like, no, yeah, I
Speaker 4: think that show is to research.
Speaker 1: It's too based in research and fact for them to
Speaker 1: be like I think they stretch shit sometimes, but Huang
Speaker 1: is an encyclopedia. Well, okay, So for our postmort im,
Speaker 1: besides learning that bed Wang is amazing, what did we
Speaker 1: learn from today's episode?
Speaker 4: I mean, hitchhiking is just not an option? Don't do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, hitchhiking, especially now with all of our phones
Speaker 2: and all the options that we have, there's really you know,
Speaker 2: this was a while ago, so good for technology. Bad
Speaker 2: if your phone dies. I mean, I don't know, it's
Speaker 2: scary out there.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, there's not that much like like the
Speaker 1: the execution episode is like so specific and it's so
Speaker 1: about like a truly deranged like serial killer. So I
Speaker 1: don't know how much we like learned specifically from it,
Speaker 1: but I guess Alex Cabot is a fucking boss and
Speaker 1: ty Burrell's character can go screw Like he thought you're
Speaker 1: you're good, Alex, but you're not spectacular.
Speaker 4: I think we found out who was spectacular in the.
Speaker 5: End, didn't we.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But also like, don't hang out with killers when
Speaker 2: the shift change is about to happen.
Speaker 4: That's really Yeah, that's a good that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: When you're scheduling your visit with a serial killer, make
Speaker 1: sure that it is not during a shift change, yeah.
Speaker 2: Or like the week before he's about to get killed.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it's just testy stuff, it is.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what I wanted to do when I
Speaker 2: was a young girl, before I realized, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: not really into academics, but I wanted to like work
Speaker 2: in prisons and talk to killers. And then I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't rather have a good time then look at
Speaker 2: Gray Walls. I don't think I could do it. But
Speaker 2: from the kill. Also like, if someone murders a bunch
Speaker 2: of people at age fifteen, don't let him out at
Speaker 2: twenty one?
Speaker 4: Is that this crime? Or now I get everything confused. No,
Speaker 4: you're right, that's at Kember. He killed his grandparents and
Speaker 4: then he killed more many more people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like leave them, and it's just like, it's so frustrating.
Speaker 2: I know we touch on this a lot, but that
Speaker 2: we have people sitting in prison for like tiny amounts
Speaker 2: of coke or weat or something or I.
Speaker 4: Don't know, robbing some stuff.
Speaker 2: And then you have people who murdered family members that
Speaker 2: are like, yeah, I have fun out there, peace out,
Speaker 2: go back, go back, and kill more people.
Speaker 4: Like it's so fucked up.
Speaker 2: When you start dating someone or meeting someone or anything,
Speaker 2: figure out what their relationship with their mothers.
Speaker 4: Like, I think that's important. I think we.
Speaker 2: Need to know how you feel about your mother and
Speaker 2: make sure it's good and if.
Speaker 1: Not, yeah, keep I've ever had the urge to cut
Speaker 1: out your mom's vocal cords.
Speaker 4: I don't think we're getting a second bumble date.
Speaker 2: You know, I keep talking about the larynx to everybody,
Speaker 2: and it really upsets people, but I can't stop bringing
Speaker 2: it into normal conversation.
Speaker 1: It seems very on brand for you, Lisa.
Speaker 4: I also think I.
Speaker 1: Also think that this episode like brings up a very
Speaker 1: interesting issue about death penalty. You know, I'm anti death
Speaker 1: penalty mostly, I mean I am, I'm anti death penalty.
Speaker 1: And I think it's just like what that father was
Speaker 1: saying of the other the cellmates victim, like you when
Speaker 1: this happens to you, like the wound never closes, Like
Speaker 1: I don't think killing the killer closes that wound for you.
Speaker 4: And it also is certainly not going to close a
Speaker 4: wound for.
Speaker 1: Like possible other victims that exist that this person is
Speaker 1: going to the grave with the information about So just.
Speaker 4: One example of why I don't believe in the death penalty.
Speaker 2: But well, how are you better than anyone when you're
Speaker 2: doing the crime?
Speaker 4: Like you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And actually a few episodes ago I mentioned the
Speaker 2: sociologists and that HBO show Crazy Not Insane, And one
Speaker 2: of the things she did was she talked to a
Speaker 2: professional executioner who's like a traveling executioner and he goes
Speaker 2: from town to town executing people.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, and that's his job.
Speaker 2: And she said that talking to him was the first
Speaker 2: time she actually felt scared and like talking to a
Speaker 2: true psychopath because so many of the other killers were
Speaker 2: mentally ill. But he doesn't even realize that he had
Speaker 2: trauma and how it's affected in him and how being
Speaker 2: an executioner does affect his psyche, right, and he started
Speaker 2: showing her, so I guess after he does an execution,
Speaker 2: he goes in paints, he blacks out and paints, and
Speaker 2: the paintings were so scary, but he saw no problems
Speaker 2: and was just like, yep, that's what I do and
Speaker 2: it's just interesting. So to me, it's like, we can't
Speaker 2: punish killers by killing, cause you become that killer. Like
Speaker 2: it's I don't think it's good for anyone or society,
Speaker 2: and I don't.
Speaker 4: Think it's a deterrent. I really don't think it's a deterrent.
Speaker 1: Like I don't think when people are committing these crimes,
Speaker 1: they're not like, am I gonna die on death row?
Speaker 4: Like that's just not I don't think it's a deterrent.
Speaker 4: And we didn't talk about this.
Speaker 2: But it's also like so many people are killed and
Speaker 2: then evidence comes out you know that, yeah, they didn't
Speaker 2: do it, and like that's reason enough, right, right.
Speaker 4: So but this is a larger conversation obviously, But.
Speaker 2: How many essays did you write about this in high school?
Speaker 1: This was like I've written a lot. I did do
Speaker 1: a capital punishment essay one time. I think in middle school. God,
Speaker 1: I'd love to get my hands on that. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: see if.
Speaker 2: I can get through some old box that was my
Speaker 2: senior thesis, Hannah.
Speaker 1: We're posting that as a PDF and our mention in
Speaker 1: our stories. Please we're gonna post it, all right. So
Speaker 1: for today's what would this your PEG do? Which is
Speaker 1: you know, our weekly segment where we direct you towards
Speaker 1: resources they can give you more information on the subject.
Speaker 1: In today's episode, we thought we'd point you towards a
Speaker 1: book written by Robert Wrestler, the man who interviewed Ed
Speaker 1: Kemper and Tom Shachtman as well. It's called Whoever Fights
Speaker 1: Monsters colon My twenty Years Tracking serial Killers for the.
Speaker 4: FBI, and Robert K.
Speaker 1: Wrestler is the man who invented the term serial killer,
Speaker 1: so definitely interesting to read his words and thoughts on
Speaker 1: the subject if you're a true crime nut, so check
Speaker 1: that out and please join us.
Speaker 2: Next week we will be covering the episode Lessons Learned,
Speaker 2: Season fourteen, episode eight, and as always, those are on
Speaker 2: Hulu and Peacock, or you could check out your local
Speaker 2: library and next time you hear from us, there will
Speaker 2: be a clink a new clink another Baby get ready
Speaker 2: for Baby Gossip.
Speaker 4: A logan I guess technically, but yeah, I refused? Are
Speaker 4: you kidding? Thank you so much, Bye bye. That's Messed
Speaker 4: Up as an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments
Speaker 4: you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us
Speaker 4: to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up
Speaker 4: Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Karaklank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our
Speaker 2: incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.
Speaker 1: And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson,
Speaker 1: and to Henry Koperski for our theme song, to Carly
Speaker 1: Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers
Speaker 1: Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarrif, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly
Speaker 1: Right Media.
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