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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Specialized investigator Greg Lawson with US works for bridging the

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Speaker 2: gap between law enforcement the study of the unknown. He

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Speaker 2: has more than thirty two years of experience and has

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Speaker 2: served as an aquatic death investigator, mental health officer, SWAT officer,

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Speaker 2: and homicide detective. Beyond his badge, Greg has explored paranormal

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Speaker 2: hotspots in more than forty countries and is the author

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Speaker 2: of five plus paranormal books. Greg, welcome back to the program.

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Speaker 2: How have you been.

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Speaker 3: I'm good, George, Thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 2: You looking forward to this? Yeah, I got to ask

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Speaker 2: you your job that you had as an aquatic death investigator.

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Speaker 2: That's got to be one heck of a gruesome job.

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Speaker 3: Now, you know, there's a lot of people that want

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Speaker 3: to be on the dive team and an underwater recovery team.

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Speaker 3: And they get over there and they see what were

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Speaker 3: you know they do and they hang on for about

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Speaker 3: two years till they can get the little award and

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Speaker 3: badge on their uniform. They transfer right out of there.

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Speaker 3: It's not something that a lot of people would I

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Speaker 3: think want to do. I did it for eighteen years,

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Speaker 3: and the main body of water that we watch over

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Speaker 3: has about thirteen average thirteen drownings a year. So over

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Speaker 3: an eighteen year period, if I just made it to

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Speaker 3: half of those callouts, it's you know, well over one

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Speaker 3: hundred people. And yeah, you're right, it can be pretty bad.

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Speaker 2: What is the latest period that you found a body?

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Speaker 3: The last one I did was that would have been

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Speaker 3: in I believe twenty twenty two, and it took us

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Speaker 3: almost four months to find her. It was a really

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Speaker 3: sad situation and it was very deep and normally, you know,

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Speaker 3: we kind of cut it off after a couple of days.

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Speaker 3: We can't find it. The amount of money it costs

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Speaker 3: to do operations like that can be pretty cost prohibitive.

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Speaker 3: So I ended up just kind of sneaking around and

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Speaker 3: getting all kinds of other dive teams to come in there.

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Speaker 3: Every month that we would have a training day on

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Speaker 3: a Wednesday, I would pull in another team and instead

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Speaker 3: of going to a regular training site, we would just

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Speaker 3: go back to that site and conduct our training there

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Speaker 3: with the hopes that we would run into her and

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Speaker 3: sure enough we did after about four months.

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Speaker 2: How did you end up mixing law enforcement with the

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Speaker 2: study of the paranormal? How did that happen?

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Speaker 3: Well, my brother tortured me as a good older brother.

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Speaker 3: Should I suppose he was about eleven years older than me,

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Speaker 3: and when I was five, he was sixteen seventeen years old,

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Speaker 3: and he would throw me on his Triumph bonvol motorcycle.

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Speaker 3: I think it was a six Triumph Bominable motorcycle and

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Speaker 3: we would drive the back roads of Texas. I'd be

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Speaker 3: sitting on his gas tank with no helmet, you know,

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Speaker 3: no helmet, no helmet, no and and he at that

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Speaker 3: time was doing what would be considered urban exploration now, he,

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Speaker 3: you know, go find old abandoned buildings, go to old

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Speaker 3: cemeteries and things like that. So he kind of started

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Speaker 3: me off pretty early, and that gave me an interest

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Speaker 3: in actually involving myself in paranormal and kind of unusual behavior.

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Speaker 2: I guess were these haunted places he was looking for.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if if it was specifically haunted. I

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Speaker 3: know that we came across some places that were pretty creepy.

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Speaker 3: He would oftentimes take me to a cemetery and we

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Speaker 3: would look, you know, at the graves, and he would

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Speaker 3: look for a child that was younger than me. You know,

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Speaker 3: I was five, So he would look for you know,

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Speaker 3: the four year olds and the two year olds and

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Speaker 3: stuff like that, and he would make up some sort

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Speaker 3: of horrific story to scare me about what's happening with

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Speaker 3: this child on the ground.

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Speaker 2: So at five years old, though that you stayed interested

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Speaker 2: in the paranormal at that early age. I did.

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Speaker 3: I once he kind of did that with me, and

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Speaker 3: my first kind of outing on myself by myself. I

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Speaker 3: was in second grade and there was a little cemetery

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Speaker 3: and I brought some friends of mine over from second

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Speaker 3: grade to this cemetery one Saturday, and I did the

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Speaker 3: same thing that my brother did to me, you know,

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Speaker 3: made up some story about something and scared the kids.

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Speaker 3: But that kind of evolved into more of a when

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Speaker 3: people really do have these kind of experiences, what is

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Speaker 3: going on with them? So I started reading a little

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Speaker 3: bit about it and talking to other people about it.

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Speaker 3: And you know, in the seventies and eighties, it wasn't

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Speaker 3: a thing. Today it's a thing. It's a you know,

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Speaker 3: it's dark tourism or whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 3: but back then it wasn't. You were just the weird kid.

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Speaker 2: You know, at what point did you decide to get

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Speaker 2: into law enforcement?

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Speaker 3: So in eighty one eighty two, people, a lot of

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Speaker 3: people don't know about this, but we had a crash

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Speaker 3: like we had in two thousand and eight with the

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Speaker 3: financial markets, and a lot of the big auto industries

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Speaker 3: went down the tubes. My father owned a or dealership,

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Speaker 3: so they kind of went down the tubes. And then

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Speaker 3: I ended up getting out of high school and there

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Speaker 3: were no jobs. I couldn't find a job anywhere. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'd worked at pizza hut, and I had no skills.

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Speaker 3: I was, you know, just straight out at a high

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Speaker 3: school and couldn't find a job. And an old man

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Speaker 3: at a at an employment agency that I went to

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Speaker 3: and filled out an application, told me, son, you don't

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Speaker 3: have any marketable skills, you don't have any training, you

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Speaker 3: don't have any certifications. You're not going to college because

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Speaker 3: I couldn't get into college because my father made too

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Speaker 3: much money of the year before, so I couldn't get

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Speaker 3: at loans or grants or anything like that. And he said,

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Speaker 3: you need to go on the military sign And I

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Speaker 3: was like, no way, mister, I'm not doing that. Well,

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Speaker 3: three weeks later I found myself on a bus going

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Speaker 3: to you know, Fort Benning and ended up in the Army.

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Speaker 2: And that was great.

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Speaker 3: That would have been nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty six,

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Speaker 3: after Vietna, And yes it was. I think like all

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Speaker 3: my drill sergeants, all those guys, my platoon sergeant, my

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Speaker 3: squad leader, and all those guys had been to Vietnam.

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Speaker 3: But it was right after that, and it was It

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Speaker 3: was great for me because I was with the eighty

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Speaker 3: second Airport Division, so we were a rapid deployment unit

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Speaker 3: and we were all over the place. I spent you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of time up in Alaska. I spent time

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Speaker 3: in North Africa and the Middle East, Central America, so

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Speaker 3: we were around a lot. And whenever we would go

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Speaker 3: to these places, I would always look for the weird thing.

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Speaker 3: Whenever we had a little bit of time off, I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't typically go hang out with a bunch of soldiers.

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Speaker 3: I'd get away from them, kind of get off into

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Speaker 3: the indigenous population and go look for the weird thing

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Speaker 3: in that area. And back then, George, they didn't have

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Speaker 3: the Internet. They had these things called books, and they

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Speaker 3: were at these places called libraries. You had to go

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Speaker 3: a library, Yeah, you had to go there, or you know,

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Speaker 3: a historical society or something to actually go do your

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Speaker 3: research and actually read down into the stuff, not just

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Speaker 3: pipe in a keyword and you know, some bullets pop up.

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Speaker 3: You actually had to to do your research. So I

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Speaker 3: did that before. We would deploy anywhere and kind of

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Speaker 3: find out, you know, what's what's the legends and lore

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Speaker 3: in this area, and what's some really interesting locations to

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Speaker 3: go to. And I would always try to make it

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Speaker 3: to those.

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Speaker 2: Well, while you were in the Army, I was doing

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Speaker 2: my Navy dute from eighty one to ninety one, got

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Speaker 2: a one month before Desert storm, one month before Desert storm,

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Speaker 2: and my unit got called up to be the public

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Speaker 2: information officers for General Schwartzkoff. Wow.

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Speaker 3: Well, for what it's worth, I get out of the

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Speaker 3: Army in nineteen eighty six. I go into the Navy

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety ninety to ninety four. So I was

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Speaker 3: with NIMETS over a Darren Desert, Desert Shield, Desert Storm,

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Speaker 3: Southern Watch and all that.

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Speaker 2: We almost would have been together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's just a couple of a couple of

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Speaker 3: months probably that's one of the other things that you know.

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Speaker 3: So I learned small squad tactics in the in the Army,

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Speaker 3: and then I learned more of a theater view while

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Speaker 3: I was in the Navy, and part of that time

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Speaker 3: in the Navy, I worked air detection and tracking on limits,

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Speaker 3: which you know that that's exactly what it says. You're

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Speaker 3: you're looking for things in the air that are are

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Speaker 3: are either threats or friendly or whatever, and you're you're

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Speaker 3: using uh certain computer equipment to be able to identify

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Speaker 3: friends or foe and all that. And that was one

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Speaker 3: of the times that I really got interested in aerial phenomena.

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Speaker 3: Is the amount of tracks that we would pick up

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Speaker 3: when we were on the coast of southern California, and

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Speaker 3: those tracks would come out of the Aleutian Island chain,

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Speaker 3: come along Alaska, across Canada, Washington, Oregon, down through.

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Speaker 2: All of.

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Speaker 3: California and then down Baja and then they would disappear.

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Speaker 3: And the funny thing is is, you know, they were

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Speaker 3: they were behaving much different than what regular aircraft would.

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Speaker 3: They were flying, they were traveling a lot lot faster,

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Speaker 3: and they were changing direction and speed. So this wasn't

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Speaker 3: an anomaly, This was not a weather phenomenon. This was

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Speaker 3: a physical craft that was doing that. And whenever we

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Speaker 3: would have these things pop up, we had electronic counter

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Speaker 3: measures and electronic countercounter measures. The ECCM people that were

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Speaker 3: in the other space beside us, one of their officers

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Speaker 3: would open up the door, walk in, say hey, fellows,

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Speaker 3: how you doing, and he would go over to your

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Speaker 3: computer and he would take your track ball and go

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Speaker 3: out and capture that that visual the image on your

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Speaker 3: radar trying I'm trying to say this without violating any security,

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Speaker 3: and then he would transfer that out of your computer

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Speaker 3: to wherever they were doing whatever it was they were

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Speaker 3: doing with it, and he would just rub your shoulders, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I hope you're doing all right, and they need to

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Speaker 3: go right back into his little hole in that sayingly too.

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Speaker 3: So it was just really weird the way that they

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Speaker 3: handled that.

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Speaker 4: But I know you're going to want some after hearing this.

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Speaker 4: This is an amazing story.

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Speaker 1: We've got Stephen and Malachi Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: I understand that Malachi, who's eight almost nine years old now,

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Speaker 4: was suffering with not just one or two warts, but

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Speaker 4: I mean a significant outbreak of warts all over his body,

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Speaker 4: so significant it impacted his ability to really function.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil to right.

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Speaker 5: It was Tye's book actually that got me thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised.

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Speaker 4: It is an amazing immuno modulator, and so I can

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Speaker 4: see that it would work. And so at what point

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Speaker 4: did you see that there was actually improvement it's really

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Speaker 4: going to work.

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Speaker 5: Well, we really started to notice it around twelve weeks.

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Speaker 5: You can see these things actually getting smaller and smaller

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Speaker 5: and then going down to with just little red marks.

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Speaker 5: The whole things are gone, and we're talking about what's

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Speaker 5: you know one that size the wanner. I thought, no way,

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Speaker 5: that's gonna Wow. That's just been miraculous to see him

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Speaker 5: get into a pure shoes.

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Speaker 1: Yes, how wonderful.

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Speaker 5: It's great to see. I'm so happy and.

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Speaker 4: Yes, ulcident absolutely wonderful.

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Speaker 5: For instead of saying it that is blown away, TI,

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Speaker 5: this is awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is awesome.

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Speaker 2: Would you say you were an expert in the paranormal

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Speaker 2: before you were a law enforcement officer? I was.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I as an expert before I was

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Speaker 3: a law enforcement officer. I would say that I was

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Speaker 3: really involved in it, and I did a lot of

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Speaker 3: reading about in different places. I was kind of a

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Speaker 3: missions guy, an operations guy.

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Speaker 2: All right, sure, you're a law enforcement officer. At what

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Speaker 2: point do you start really getting interested then in the paranormal?

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Speaker 2: How did you bridge that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's one of those things you have to

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Speaker 3: be very careful, Right, all defense attorney would love to

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Speaker 3: have as some guy that's working his client's murder case,

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Speaker 3: that is a ghost investigator, a ghost hunter. Right, you

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Speaker 3: could go in there really do some damage as far

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Speaker 3: as credibility goes. And so you really, as a law

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Speaker 3: enforcement officer, you have to sever those ties on either side.

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Speaker 3: They have to be very very separate from one another.

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Speaker 3: So when I was doing just doing my regular research,

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Speaker 3: and going to these weird locations and everything. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: a thing. It was just something I did. And you know,

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Speaker 3: the TV shows aren't there and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 3: so I started having people that would ask me questions.

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Speaker 3: I got pulled. They did a thing back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty seven, I think it was called the de Hospitalization

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Speaker 3: Act where they stepped in and they depopulated all this

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Speaker 3: state hospitals and state schools. Well where did these people go?

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Speaker 3: They went on the street, and that's where we see

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Speaker 3: them today. You know, this is like third generation from

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Speaker 3: that of the population of mentally ill on the street.

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Speaker 3: And so they pulled me as a mental health officer.

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Speaker 3: So it was literally like a molder position, right X

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Speaker 3: File's position, because we got called for all of these

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Speaker 3: people that were, you know, three or four months ago

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Speaker 3: in the middle system in a hospital being medicated to

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Speaker 3: out on the street not taking their medication, and then

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Speaker 3: having all these experiences. So we were going in and

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Speaker 3: doing alien abduction. That's probably one of the number one

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Speaker 3: cases that we would work as alien abduction cases. They

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Speaker 3: would report UFOs alien abduction. The other thing on the

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Speaker 3: other side would be religious stuff. So we would get

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Speaker 3: you know, they had a religious experience. They're either possessed

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Speaker 3: or they believe that they are Jesus or whatever it

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Speaker 3: might be. So that's when I really turned into what

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Speaker 3: would be considered a professional I could, I could, I

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Speaker 3: could go and testify as an expert witness for that

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Speaker 3: sort of thing. And that's where I brought the two together.

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Speaker 2: I think, would you say, Greg that your police experience

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Speaker 2: made you a better paranormal investigator.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And one of the big thing is is when

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Speaker 3: you go into an investigation, how you look at it,

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Speaker 3: how you research it, once you get there, how you

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Speaker 3: interact with any other people that are there, and then

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Speaker 3: once you pull yourself out of there and you start

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Speaker 3: to evaluate evidence. That's the other thing that I think.

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Speaker 3: You know, George, I am not a debunker. I've been

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Speaker 3: accused of being a debunker many times. And I don't

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Speaker 3: go in there and go, Okay, this isn't what it is,

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Speaker 3: and I, you know, make my call. I evaluate the evidence.

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Speaker 3: But if the evidence is something naturally occurring, it's not paranormal.

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Speaker 3: It's not paranormal, and you need to own.

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Speaker 2: That it is, right. Yeah, absolutely, Well that's the best

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Speaker 2: way to do it. Now, at what point did you

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Speaker 2: start applying most of your police trading to the paranormal work.

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Speaker 3: So my wife is very interested in true crime. She's

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Speaker 3: interested in cold cases, she's interested in the murder cases,

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Speaker 3: sensational type stuff. And she does a ton of I

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Speaker 3: call it research.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 3: Most people just say, well, you know, they're just you know,

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Speaker 3: scrolling through or looking at that. Well, she's looking for

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Speaker 3: specific things. She's looking for these, uh, these patterns and

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Speaker 3: sort of stuff. And she kind of puts stuff together

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Speaker 3: and goes, hey, what what do you think about this?

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Speaker 3: And I think when it really changed is one day

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Speaker 3: I came home and she goes, hey, we got tickets

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Speaker 3: to go to Romania. Like what she goes, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: bought tickets to go to Romania. There's this guy named

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Speaker 3: Dave Schrader and he's running a Dracula tour in Transylvania.

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Speaker 2: One of our buddies. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And and by the way, at phenomenon. To be able

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Speaker 3: to share that stage with you up there, you and

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Speaker 3: Dave and uh, you know, Amy Bruney and Richard Stepp

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Speaker 3: and the rest, that was a really highlight of my life.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate you doing that. That was that was

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Speaker 3: again that was that was great. So yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 3: uh what ended up happening is because she wanted to

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Speaker 3: go do this and then once I got there and

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Speaker 3: talked today and you know, we had these good conversations

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Speaker 3: over this, you know, two week period on this bus

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Speaker 3: in Transylvania, and we went from where Vlad the and

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Speaker 3: Paler also known as Dracula, where he was born, where

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Speaker 3: he grew up, where he went to school, where he

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Speaker 3: had his training, where he went in the military, where

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Speaker 3: he had battles, where his castle was, where he was killed,

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Speaker 3: and then where he was interred. It was a full

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Speaker 3: life of Vlad the Impaler. And this whole time I'm

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Speaker 3: talking to Dave, and I didn't realize, you know, the

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Speaker 3: things I was doing people actually wanted to hear about.

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Speaker 3: People were actually interested in that, and I thought it

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Speaker 3: was just, you know, something quirky I did.

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Speaker 2: It's because it's so real with what you do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know some of those cases when everybody

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Speaker 3: was the hospital is out of the state hospital there

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Speaker 3: in the late eighties, the individuals talk to that were

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Speaker 3: street you know then living on the street. They didn't

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Speaker 3: have any other choice. They were kicked out because they

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Speaker 3: were not in immediate danger to themselves or others, so

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Speaker 3: they put them out on the street, and of course

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Speaker 3: they quit taking their medication, and then you know, the

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Speaker 3: rest is history. There Do you and would.

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Speaker 2: Do you investigate on your own?

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Speaker 3: Primarily primarily Now, yes, after I retired from a law

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Speaker 3: enforcement I'm now a faculty professor at a local community

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Speaker 3: college in the criminal justice department. So now I Lin

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Speaker 3: and my we do our investigations or our travel. At

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Speaker 3: this point, I just I've been working on a book

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Speaker 3: called The Working caitls is the investigations. The problem is,

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Speaker 3: I'm doing open records request for my investigations from nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty seven to nineteen eighty nine. The amount of redaction

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Speaker 3: that has to go into that because it's cover with

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Speaker 3: you know, hipA and and other laws, as far as

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Speaker 3: exposing to it is so pro it's so expensive. I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure how I'm going to handle it. Because of that.

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Speaker 3: That was kind of my whole plan was, is when

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Speaker 3: when I retired, I was going to pull these, uh,

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Speaker 3: these cases and kind of write them as a book

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Speaker 3: and say, look, these are the most compelling abduction experiential

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Speaker 3: cases that I had while I was a mental health Officer.

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