WEBVTT - Interview Only w/ Ben Wikler - The Structural Reforms Democrats Can't Keep Ignoring 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.280 This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:06.720 by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about medicare is 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:12.080 somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere, and you're skeptical 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.920 of that, as you should be. I get it. I mean, 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.080 there's a federal lawsuit going on right now over exactly 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.480 this companies that branded themselves as unbiased while allegedly pointing 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.200 people toward whatever would pay them the most, as some 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.920 sort of broker. So if your default is to distrust 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.360 everyone in this space, honestly, I get it. I'm a 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.600 bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole reason I 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.560 want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent medicare advisors 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.800 whose entire model is that their advisors are not paid 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.040 to push any one plan. They're just trying to help. Yes, 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.000 there's compensation that goes with it, but it's across the 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.320 board is what they're trying to do. At the end 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.400 of the day, they're advocating for you. They're not the 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:57.560 insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person who actually goes 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:02.240 through your doctors, your prescriptions needs, and then compares them 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.280 to every single plan available to find the best one. 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.680 That will work for you and hopefully send save you 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.520 a couple of dollars too. And here's the part that 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.200 sets Chapter apart. They don't disappear once you've been in 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.119 a role. They will keep advocating for you. They're kind 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.479 of like almost like a concierge service. You're just there. 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.720 I need help. You're like customer service. You know the plan, 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:24.640 you know, help me navigate this again. So you ever 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.280 get hit with a wrongful medical bill, they'll help you 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.400 fight it. They want to stay an advocate for you 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:35.039 even after you've done this. So look, I get it. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.720 I think there's all sorts of space. You see a 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.559 lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space. 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.360 When I like about these Chapter folks, I've spent time 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:48.840 with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is Medicare, 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.520 and all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing. 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.200 The whole point of this is to make this easier 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:00.600 and less confusing. Okay, so look, take this cupticism you 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.040 already have in all of this, pointed out your own 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.160 plan for twenty minutes. It's free, there's no pressure, and 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.600 then call Chapter today at nine eight zero seven three 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:18.360 four three nine eight five. Well, joining me now is 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.800 somebody who's been on here before. And I'll be honest, 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.240 I thought if he was going to the next time 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.120 I had him on, i'd be introducing him as the 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:30.840 chair of the Democratic National Committee. But the committee chose 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.680 to go another way, and instead Ben Wickler is out 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.760 here with his own diagnosis of what the party could 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:43.200 be doing better, how he rebuilt the Wisconsin Democratic Party, 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.839 which is no easy task, which we will get into here. 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:48.000 As many of you know, I like to talk about 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.120 how Wisconsin's one of the more unique swing states and 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.760 that there is no swing geographic areas it is. It 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.200 is in some ways balanced by extremes being a little 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.119 stereotypical there. But I will get into that. And I'm 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.240 sure there are many people at the DNC right now 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.840 who wish that mister Weckler were there, but I won't 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.120 make him respond to that. Ben Weckler joins me now. 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.160 He's got a new book, The Plan, right is that 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.359 what it's called? What's the plan there? It is? This 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.640 is the plan? Yes, yes, And when you say the 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.079 plan is that a this a tactical plan to how 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.440 to make the Democratic Party main mainstream to a majority 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.280 of Americans again, is that the idea? What is your plan? 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.560 Is it? That is it? You know, if you could 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:35.120 elevator pitch the plan to me? 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.560 Sure so full title is this is the plan how 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.720 to end America's meltdown and save democracy. And you'll notice 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.360 that there's a fire extinguisher on the cover. That is 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.320 because I think I'm not alone and feeling this very 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.080 widespread sense that the country's on fire right now, that 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.880 things are just not working for regular folks, that we 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.600 need political change to be able to accomplish that. And 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:00.760 as I kind of lay out in the book, to 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:02.960 get the political change we need, we have to actually 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.600 change the political system, which is a shorthand is saving democracy, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.840 but broadly is how we change our system so that 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.960 it's responsive to what people actually want, which right now 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.720 the government is not. It is very effectively serving a 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.240 very small group of people who might be members of 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.039 the Mar A Lago Club but are not representative of 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.240 a general public that is freaking out about everything from 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.120 the economy to ice agents shooting people in the streets. 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:33.080 So the shorthand of the plan is step one. There's 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.080 a very real question about the future of free and 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.320 fair elections in this country. Trumpe is kind of slamming 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.520 a battering ram against the gates. The most powerful way 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.000 to ensure we have a real election in twenty twenty 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.480 eight is for people who believe in democracy to win 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.279 at the state level in twenty twenty six. Step two 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.440 is over two cycles to win a democratic federal trifecta, 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.240 which will also include independence. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:54.800 This is not a. 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:00.240 Two party doopoly advocating book, but we have to have 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.560 people who think the government should work for the public 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:04.800 and not just for a handful of billionaires win in 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.680 twenty eight. And then step three, and this is in 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.560 some ways the most controversial thing. I argue that the 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.600 immediate first thing that has to happen is an end 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.440 to the filibuster. And then you need to do US 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.599 Supreme Court reform, because this era, i argue, did not 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.359 begin with Trump descending the Golden Escalator. It began with 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.800 Citizens United. It began with a string of US Supreme 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.640 Court decisions that have transformed the American political system without 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:35.080 actually changing any laws. Then you do national jerrymandering ban, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.279 you do a set of different things that can actually 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:40.440 ensure that everyone has a voice and a vote in 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.680 this country and then you can get real policies through 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.520 that will make life affordable and make the American dream 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:51.159 accessible to people. But it's a multi step, years long 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.760 process that mirrors what we went through in Wisconsin to 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.760 escape from a kind of trap in democracy here. I 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.880 think it's the only realistic thing is to realize there's 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.040 no one office or one candidate that gets us out. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.200 Of this mess. Look, I think the tension in your 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:12.560 plan for me is systemic reform versus tactical reform. Right, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.040 the Democratic Party has a set of challenges in order 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:21.440 for the Democratic Party succeed hartstop. There is systemic reform 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.760 that I think has a broader potential group of people 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.479 who would be in favor of. But the challenge is 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:36.680 the party that wins immediately doesn't want to give up 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.599 powers that got it there in the first place. Right, 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.680 the reforms we need, like, I mean, let's do the 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:49.880 most simplistic, which is weakening the executive branch. Right, There's 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:55.120 no doubt Congress does not understand. Sometimes I joke, I 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.320 don't think any member of Congress is read Article one 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.240 of the Constitution. I don't think they fully appreciate eight 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:07.200 what powers they actually have and you need to sort 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:12.000 of strengthen Congress here regardless of party. But if the Democrats, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.840 I mean, the problem has been is for forty years. 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.680 It's the moments of the trifectus which you just called, 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.600 which is success for the Democratic Party or success for 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.240 the Republican Party, but it does not address the systemic breakdowns, 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.520 and that, to me is the trap we're in. It's 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:35.400 almost like the Chinese finger trap. You know, you're articulating 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.240 the cur I think, what a combination of the correct answer. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.120 But the minute your party gets power, I promise you 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.119 they're not going to be reformers. I know that's always 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:50.800 about but you just it just never happens that way. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.920 Why do you think this can be different? Well, you're 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:55.640 exactly right. 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.360 I am arguing that instead of just struggling over the 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.800 Ring of power and lord of the rings, that you know, 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.080 my readers should get involved in an epic quest to 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:05.720 get the ring of power and then cast it into 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.480 Mount Doom. That you have to change the way power 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:10.200 works in this country to be able to get out 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.480 of this mess. And that's why throughout the book I 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.880 advocate one elects people who share those values, and then 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.960 two advocate and push for them to actually act on 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.520 them when they have power. And this is you know, 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.440 something on the right that we've seen over and over 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.440 that when the right wins at the state level, at 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.720 the federal level, there's an immediate focus on changing systems 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.160 and you know, appointing Supreme Court justices, changing the way 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.520 you know, federal employees are scheduled, changing the systems itself 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.840 to lock in power and control. On the democratic side, 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.680 there's an admirable focus on getting the country out of 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.640 whatever crisis or mess it has fallen into under Republican leadership, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.120 which was you know, most recently the COVID pandemic and 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.640 then the Great Financial Crisis before that, But that hasn't 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.920 been married to systemic changes. Yeah, I think in part 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.320 for the exact reason that you're saying that people you know, 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.240 get their certain road and they're like, what do you 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:03.280 want us to blow up that road? That, like, you know, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.720 that's how we got here. I think that has to 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.040 change now. And what I argue in the book is 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.400 that if it doesn't change, then we will predictably be 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.960 in an even worse situation than we are now starting 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.480 in twenty thirty that you know, there's a pendulum swing, 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.760 but when one side grabs the pendulum and you know, 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.600 renches the system so that democracy falls apart whenever it 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:26.120 swings in that direction, if you just like, you know, 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.840 keep writing the pendulum, then you wind up in disastrous trouble. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:31.520 And that's part of the reason we have change election 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.959 after change election after change election without change on so 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.079 many the things people are mad about. So this is 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.800 this is you know, I'm addressing this book to as 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.600 many people as possible if we're involved as volunteers, as dotors, 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.200 as activists, as people who might run for office, because 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.000 there needs to be a shift away from just thinking 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.080 it's about winning the next election and a recognition that 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.360 this has to involve changing the system itself. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.280 You know, bet I get my hope in history, right 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.480 I ground I look at the first twenty years of 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.760 the twentieth century and think, you know, there's a lot 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:10.640 of similarities. Industrial Age was coming about powerful robber barons, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.000 you know, so called the so called robber barons, and 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.160 ironically it took a third party, or it took essentially 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.760 Teddy Roosevelt breaking off a piece of the party sort 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.760 of forcing that that sort of forced some change. We 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.200 had some you know, we got the most difficult thing 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:30.679 there is to do in our system, which is add 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:35.079 constitutional amendments, and we added some big ones in that period. 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.440 The power to tax, I think is one we never 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.160 talk enough about, especially at a point where you now 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.320 have a movement to get rid of property taxes among 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.240 some on the right, which I don't think is going 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.240 to succeed. I mean even at Florida, a state that 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.560 prides itself on wanting to be a place you go 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.680 to hide your money, right, there's not people get it. 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:01.000 Oh you mean, so we're not going to have firefighters, 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.680 We're not going to pay for these things. So I 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.719 don't think there's there. But we couldn't even do those things. Wait, 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:08.679 we added the text. We gave women the right to 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.480 vote direct election to senators. These were monumental changes, yes, 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.160 none of which were led by a political party though, but. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.840 The movement that's how they happened. And guess what that 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.240 movement started in my state in Wisconsin. This is you know, 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:27.199 the first successful progressive taxation was in Wisconsin. First date 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:28.960 to ratify the ninety Ath amendments. So when we could 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.679 vote in Wisconsin, open primaries started in Wisconsin. I have 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.120 a footnote that feel forgive me for reading a footnote 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:36.080 from my book that. 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.160 Showed you we're really geeking out when it's gotten a footnotes. 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.679 All right, So, so part of I document how we're 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.640 in a period of greater instability than any other period 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.680 in American history in terms of which party controls the House, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:50.720 the send at the White House. 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.240 Yeah, I mean, there's really only been a that since 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.559 the nineteenth century before we had this kind of tumult. 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.520 That's right now. Yeah, the footnote says, the only other 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.800 time in the history of the Republic that Congress was 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.880 this unstable, flipping four times and twenty five years was 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.640 in the period of hyper industrialization after the Civil War, 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.679 from reconstruction into the Gilded Age, a time of advancing 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.960 racial justice and bitter backlash, rapid economy, transforming technological change, 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.360 enormous overweening oligarchic fortunes in the hands of titans who 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.920 bought and sold politicians to advance their wealth and power, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.840 And a media landscape reshaped by new technologies in which 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:27.240 partisan venom reigned in place of fairness and objectivity, thanks 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.960 in part to leaders from Wisconsin, as chronicled in this book. 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.199 That period gave way to the progressive era, trust busting, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.080 union protections, government and the public interest and reforms that 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.040 spread prosperity more widely. Unfortunately, it was such a different 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.040 time that there's nothing we can learn today from that period. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.920 Yeah, right, exactly, nothing to learn at all. No, I'm 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.120 obsessed with it. I mean I find it like we are. 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.280 You know, the old joke history history. You know, it 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.199 may never be in itself, but it certainly rhymes yes, 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.000 and it is it is. I mean, the last time 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.920 we've had three straight one term presidents was the nineteenth 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.200 century in that period. It's like the last time for 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.719 all of these things is in that period. So that 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.720 is what gives me hope. I'm just not as my jokes, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.280 I'm short term pessimistic, long term optimistic. I know, as 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.640 Winston Churchill, I repeat this all the time. He says, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.000 you can always count on the Americans to be there 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.480 after they've exhausted every other path in some form of it. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.560 And there's some truthiness to that, right, Like that is 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.040 sort of right. We finally got into World War One, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.880 we finally got into war. We're reluctant warriors, But when 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.120 when we're in. You're glad we're there, but it does 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:37.440 take forever for us to become an ally I do 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.120 I just you know what you and I are both describing, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.640 though we're outside forces, not inside forces. But let's talk 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:48.880 about inside the Democratic Party right now. Matthew Iglesias wrote 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:54.480 a terrific piece a couple of weeks ago, quoting this 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.400 one of the Star Wars series and Or. There's this 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:03.640 quote in and Or which is as good of a 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.240 political comparison to where we are today right They It was, 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.680 it's a really smart series, and the simple question was 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:13.280 do you want to fight or do you want to win? 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.920 And I sit here, Ben, there's no doubt in my 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.280 mind your goal is to win. But you and I 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:28.320 both know that the constituency rising inside your party right now, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:34.000 I think is more animated by the fight and seeing 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.360 this as they're not interested in the larger fight until 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:42.880 they win this fight. How do you stop that? 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.600 Here's the weird thing about this moment that is also 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.840 true within the Republican base, in the in the general public, 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.800 there's this sense of like, does anybody notice how hard 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.080 this is, how screwed up everything is. There's a hunger 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.680 for that, and you can see at you know, in Iowa, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:07.440 in Alaska, in Wisconsin, in Texas, in Pennsylvania, in Michigan, 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.080 everywhere in the country, including in places that have these 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.360 heavily contested primaries, but also places that don't. Nobody running 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.680 on the status quo right now is winning. There's a 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.640 sense of like there has to be change, and to me, 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.240 the entergy the kind of fighty energy that can be 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.440 channeled into the energy to win and then create change 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.400 from winning. That's in a sense my argument in the 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.359 book that's also been my work for years in Wisconsin. 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:35.880 I also quote and Or in the book, which is 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.920 the idea of one way out, which is a pivotal 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:44.000 speech in a pivotal scene. In some ways, there's one 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:45.680 way out of the mess that we're in right now. 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.440 As a country. We could be polarized, not just polarized, 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.920 but so jerrymandered that basically no one gets a vote 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:53.600 for the House, the same way almost no one gets 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.120 a vote for the presidency, and the Senate can block 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.920 every major reform from going through if one party decides 0:15:58.920 --> 0:15:59.520 to veto. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.080 It, and then you're just stuck with. 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:02.720 The laws that we've got on the books, and then 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.440 a totally unchecked executive that operates like a king and 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.920 gets rubber stamped only when it's a Republican by this 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.800 US Supreme Court. That's the status quo at the moment, 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.880 and unraveling that, you know, requires having a stright effector 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.120 that's committed to change that then acts on that commitment. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:20.840 You know. 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.360 I think it's just part of politics in a time 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.360 of unrest, that there are enormous divisions within primaries. And 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.840 the central question, which is really a question about will, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.320 is whether after primaries everyone unites, as Michigan just did 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.080 and as Wisconsin is going to do this coming Wednesday 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.400 after the governor's race. The question of whether everyone gets 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.920 together and then focuses on goal one, which is actually 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.920 winning the general election. That's up to millions of people 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.040 who wake up sometimes feeling you know, agony that their 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.840 favorite primary candidate didn't win. Sometimes they're feeling joy. The 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.520 question of whether they can then hold hands rather than 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.240 saying you know, I told you so, or dragging each 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.480 other through the mud, that's the question everyone has to 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:04.159 answer for them. And my argument is my experiences that 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.919 right now there is a sense of the stakes if 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.960 we if people who believe in democracy don't get together 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.520 and win, they can channel into the fight. Now, all 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.000 of that said, and that was a lot that I 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.800 just said. Yeah, I also argue in the book the 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:20.760 thing that I found over and over when I'm knocking 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.320 on doors, and you can see in every poll and 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.000 focus group, which is the people who might swing either 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.480 way or might not vote, they generally think both parties 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.000 are totally corrupting out of it. They've given up on 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:35.760 the system itself. So, you know, the differences between you know, 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.720 different kinds of Democrats or Democrats and Republicans all seem 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.440 very distant and seem like partisan noise to folks who 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.720 don't put politics at the center of their lives, and 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:45.640 you know, feel like they're ready to see the whole 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.320 thing go up in flames. So the question of how 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.160 to reach them, that's the central thing that I kind 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.720 of try to guide readers towards. It's it's less about 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.439 the internesian battles that seem very obscure to folks. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.639 This episode of The Check Podcast is brought to you 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.600 by fand OL Baseball Fans. Think you know who's hitting 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.000 a homer today? Well, Fandel is giving you a free 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.720 chance to call your shot with Daily Dingers. Joining the 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.000 action is easy. You just make your free pick on 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:17.959 who's hitting a home run and their game, and if 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:19.879 you're right, you'll get a profit boost to use on 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.400 your next bet for a chance at extra winnings. 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Finally, 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.080 you can also call one eight seven seven seven seven 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:48.200 zero seven eight six seven if you're in Louisiana. Well, 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.040 I mean, look, I don't believe. Let's take Michigan. I 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:58.520 don't believe that the people that chose a Democratic ballot 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:04.439 in Grand Rapids wants socialism, all right, I don't buy that. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.720 What I buy is that a whole bunch of people 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.240 in Kent County we're so disgusted over the last fifteen 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.720 years about what happened to the Republican Party, and then 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.800 they've never been big fans of the Democratic Party, certainly 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.000 not the establishment version of it. And then they're like, well, 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.199 the only Democrats that are saying what I think of 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.879 the party happen to be these progressives, right, And you know, 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.919 I compared it in my previous episode. In a previous 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:37.680 episode too. If you've got a couple of different doctors 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:42.639 you've gone to and one confirms how you're feeling and 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.200 the other one says you're not feeling what you think 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.439 you're feeling, You're going to then listen to the doctor 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.560 that confirms what you're feeling. Yes, Now, they may be 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.199 the herbal crazy person. You know, they acknowledge, and it 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.479 may turn out that their prescription is not a good idea, 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.280 but maybe they help you find the person with a 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:08.480 better prescription for your problem. But you at least are 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.800 comfortable talking with them about your current problem because they 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:17.760 they agree with the diagnosis where we all disagree. I mean, now, 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.160 this is to me, it's like the Democrats have such 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.000 a math challenge, and it isn't you know, it isn't 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.760 as simple as addition and subtraction. Right, There is a 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.679 majority in this country that don't want anything to do 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.879 with Trump or trump Ism. It is crystal clear. The 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.720 problem is it's the only thing about a fifty five 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.760 percent majority agrees on right, Like, you know, is that true? 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.040 I think fifty people want, you know, a higher minimum. 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.880 I think that that's the thing where I correct. Can 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.880 you have a top line agreement on some things, maybe 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.359 have some disagreements on how you get there, you know, 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.000 take you know, this week's the anniversary of Social Security. 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:02.119 Yeah, written by Aston Tonight. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:10.560 Incidentally, Yes had FDR and introduced what social security looks 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.440 like today in nineteen thirty five. There's no chance it passes. 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.920