WEBVTT - Dr. Orna Guralnik Reflects on the Ethics of Practicing 'Couples Therapy' on TV 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.680 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.119 which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:17.840 in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, and the 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:21.919 dog days of summer are traditionally the time psychotherapists of 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:26.239 all stripes take some well deserved time off. Well, Strictly 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.880 Business has managed to coax one of them back in 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.560 front of the couch to fill the vacuum. But this 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.839 is no average shrink. Doctor Orna Garalmik is the featured 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.880 physician on the Showtime series Couples Therapy, where she helps 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.320 relationships in crisis, letting viewers follow their progress we're lack 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.800 thereof from episode to episode. She's currently shooting a fifth season, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.200 so we're glad she's making time today to talk about 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.720 what it's like to adapt her practice to the small screen. 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:56.600 Welcome to Strictly Business. 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.960 Auna, Thank you, thank you for inviting me, Andrew. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.880 We must explain for the uninitiated and maybe some cynics. 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.440 Your show features real life couples sharing real life problems 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.559 with the world, and of course you are a very 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.800 real practicing clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. You teach An NYU's 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.600 postdoctoral psychoanalysis program, So you're not just playing one on TV, 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:22.720 so to speak. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:24.560 I'm not playing one at all. 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.280 I'm myself okay, But it begs a question, what is 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.120 a nice, pre eminently qualified therapist like you doing on 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.840 a medium like this, What motivates you to open up 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.480 what is a very private process typically? 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:46.520 Well, first of all, I join in the question because 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:52.240 I asked myself that question still, But it was it 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.480 didn't It happened kind of gradually. It was not at 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.440 all my plan. I mean, most people who choose to 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:03.920 be psychoanalysts, including myself, are generally very private people. We're 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.040 usually in a profession that privacy is like the number 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.840 one frame or rule of the game, right, And we 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.680 like to sit behind our patients and not even look 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.960 at them face to face. So we're typically very private people. 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:26.320 But I have become gradually somewhat more public being in academics. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.280 So I teach, and I write, and I write not 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:34.720 only for academics, I write kind of beyond the scope 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:39.880 of psychoanalysts. So I've already had somewhat of a public 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:46.040 reach before, and that's probably what got the makers of 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.560 the show to got to me. Somehow. They reached out 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.040 to me, and first I thought I would consult to 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.320 them just to make sure kind of they're keeping in 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.760 like doing a good job in representing my profession. Sure, 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.000 but we really hit it off and they convinced me 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.680 to actually try and do it myself, which was a 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.320 total strange idea to me, to try to do something 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.960 so private on camera, and none of us knew it 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.359 was going to work. We didn't know that function on camera, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.880 we didn't know that the work could be done on camera, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.200 and it was all like one big experiment. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.160 So what made you, you know, give this a world? 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.560 Many things. First of all, I guess just kind of 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.960 an adventurous spirit, something about the adventure of it. And 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:42.760 I really liked the filmmakers. They're just incredible people, and 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.880 they felt like I could do something with these people. 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:47.760 It would be good, it would be of high quality, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.840 it would be ethical, it would be a real project, 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:57.720 it wouldn't be some kind of fake representation. But I 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:04.200 also feel in ways compelled to represent the prefetsion well. 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.280 And I think the world kind of needs a lot 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:13.480 more psychological and psychoanalytic thinking nowadays. I think it's and 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:15.400 I think that's one of the reasons the show became 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:20.840 so successful. It just hit a spot that is desperately needed, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:27.280 which is like deeper, slower thought into like the underlying motivations. 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:33.200 So I mean, I couldn't agree more in terms of 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:38.480 that public need. But you know, I've also wondered, are 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.080 you want a mission of sorts, maybe even to sort 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.200 of preserve the world of psychoanalysis, which you know is 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.560 often described And please dispute my characterization if you take 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:54.240 issue with it as something of a dying art approaching obsolescence? 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:56.840 Did you am? I off both there? 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.080 I have two things to say about that. Honestly, I'm 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.880 not doing the show to promote psychoanalysis or to promote psychotherapy. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.960 I don't. I mean, there are not enough therapists out 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.159 there in the world. There's obviously a great need, but 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.839 I'm not there to promote therapy. I'm there mostly to 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:24.880 promote psychological thinking. See, I want people to come out 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.440 of the show thinking about themselves in a deeper way, 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.279 thinking about fellow humans in a deeper way, thinking psychologically, 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.760 not oh, how do I go and find a therapist 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:40.640 right now? So that's my objective as far as, like 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.159 you know, since I became a psychoanalyst, which was quite 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.880 some time ago. There's always been talk about like the oh, 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.800 it's a dying field, it's a dying profession. That is 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.760 not true. I mean, especially not in New York. Sure, 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.120 you constantly people looking for therapy. They are not enough 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.360 therapists around. People want to do real deep work. They 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.920 start with regular therapy, then they want to go deeper 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.920 into analysis. It is not a dying profession. And there 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.480 are other ways that psychoanalysis is relevant in the world, 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.279 not only by way of therapy. It's it's it's a 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.560 it's a way of thinking. It's a way of analyzing 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.800 the world, and we need it. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.520 I get it. And so you mentioned that you had 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.200 to be sort of coaxed into trying this out. We 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.520 should mention the names of the producers, by the way, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.720 Elise Steinberg, Josh Kriegman, and forgive me if I'm miss 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:31.680 to pray. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:32.479 You like to pray? 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.839 Yeah, Okay, there you go. And so they put you 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.840 in the saddle, and I'm curious what that first experience 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.760 was like and were you hooked or maybe still a 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:44.600 little skeptical. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:50.000 I was definitely skeptical. We started with kind of a 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.320 few test sessions with Actually the cameras were still in 0:06:54.360 --> 0:07:00.919 the room when we were doing that, and part of 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:06.320 what happened was oddly, even though I was nervous and 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.000 confused about how this is all going to play out, 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.280 the work is the work. That was Like I remember 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.920 coming out of the few test sessions and saying, wow, 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.560 I feel like a baker. I know how to make bread. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.640 Doesn't matter the conditions, you always have to do the 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.720 same thing. So the material just presents itself and you 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:29.960 know what to do. I've been doing it for so 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.400 many years, so that was like a first surprise. But 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:37.640 then even the people I was kind of working with, 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.240 even though they were nervous and confused and not exactly 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:45.840 knowing what's going to happen here, it just you know, 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:47.840 you listen to people and they want to tell you 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.360 their stories, and then you think together about how to 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.880 problem solve and it just happens. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.080 It's like, got it. 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.840 Yeah, it's stronger than the artific context. 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.440 And but you mentioned artificial context. And so the question 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.280 that arises for me is it certainly looks like what 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.400 you're doing is actual therapy, but is it? I mean, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.360 do you have to explain to participants, perhaps that this 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.960 is maybe like a similacrum of therapy, or you're saying, no, 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.920 this is the real deal, and there's something about I mean, 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.080 I guess I wonder if somehow the cameras corrupt the 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.400 process despite the best of intentions. 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:39.120 Yeah, really really good questions. It is not therapy per 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:45.080 se in the sense that, first of all, you know, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:50.120 as I mentioned earlier, like the iron frame of confidentiality 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:56.199 is gone. So whoever starts this work knows that this 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:01.680 is not private information between them and me. It's potentially 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.520 going to be broadcast to the world. So in that 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:10.520 sense it's definitely not regular therapy. But also part of 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:16.040 the contract of therapy is the patient pays the analyst, 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.600 and we don't do that. I mean, this is free, 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.840 so it's not it's a different The whole frame of 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.760 it is not the frame of therapy, right, not that 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.679 aren't pro bono therapies, but the entire frame of it 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:33.480 is different. So we call them participants, not patients, the couples, 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:40.640 and it is in its in its contract and its 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.080 ens in its essence, it is a similar croom in 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.160 the sense that certain aspects of the therapy of original 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.760 therapy continue. I think as a therapist, the work we're 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:59.360 doing is therapeutic. It's hopefully helpful, but the basic tenants, 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:06.360 the base frame is gone, so it's a similar room, 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.200 but many aspects of the therapeutic process continue and are 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:16.440 very powerful. So we're sitting together, I'm thinking analytically and 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.520 systematically about what they're presenting me with. They're talking about 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.720 their problems. We're trying to problem solve. Together. We build 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.200 a relationship of a certain kind of trust and mutual care, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.840 and good things happen, like people get better with the 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:33.880 material they bring. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.480 So that's certainly clear to anyone who has watched the 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.880 past four seasons. And I'm actually curious, as you're currently 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.920 shooting the fifth season, has the process changed as your 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:51.199 approach evolved. Does it get easier because you sounded initially 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.560 almost as if like you still need a little coaxing 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:54.800 to even do this. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:11:01.280 Yeah, I don't know if it gets I mean, I'm 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:07.840 convinced now that what we're doing is an incredibly useful 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.199 thing for the public, which is kind of an amazing 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.520 thing to be involved in nowadays. I mean, there's so 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:15.679 many things that are going wrong with our world and 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.240 to be part of something that is actually helpful for 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.960 the world and pushes whoever is like watching it is 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:32.400 pushing them towards more compassion and slowness and empathy and goodwill. 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:37.600 To be part of that is an incredible experience. And 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.200 the team I'm working with is just, you know, just 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:45.800 the best people on earth. But it's not easy. It's 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:51.280 not It didn't get easier. No, it's hard work. We 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.559 take our job and we take the mission very seriously. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.679 So there's like an enormous amount of like thought and 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:03.680 intention and presence that goes into this project by everyone. 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:10.200 It's kind of a very intense commitment. Like every season 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.200 that we shoot, it's like a full on dive into 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.120 a few months of just full on commitment to the 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.880 well being of the people to like a dignified representation 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:26.800 of who they are. It's it's not easy. It's very satisfying, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.120 and I think we all feel just incredibly lucky to 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.520 be part of this. But it's hard work. 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.280 I do wonder though, you know, I can't help but 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.319 think about the field in which you operate and the 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.160 fundamentals that many insist on, and so I know you've 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:52.160 gotten compliments. I'm curious though, if you've gotten criticism people 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.280 who say that, well, once you pull out certain frameworks, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.520 this is not something that is this cheapen or distort 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:03.440 what the actual process is. 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.040 Yeah, you know, I oddly I did not get a 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.040 lot of criticism. To my face, I don't want. 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:12.679 To know how that works. 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.480 Yeah, I don't know what's happening behind closed doors. But 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:21.359 what I have heard and what I've read are legitimate questions, 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:26.960 really legitimate questions about you know, big ethical questions like 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.680 even people who agree to participate and are supposedly benefiting 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.920 from the show, do they end up regretting it? Do 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:41.120 they feel exploited? And those are always big questions that 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:47.600 we take super seriously, and I think it would be 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.880 dishonest to say that there isn't some degree of compromise 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:59.320 for at least some of the participants experience privacy, and 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.800 they may you know, they consent is like a funny thing. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.760 They might feel totally gung ho while they're doing it, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.960 but a year later they might feel very differently about 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.319 it and have regrets or feel like, oh, it would 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.679 have been very different if I did it now, or 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:24.840 and that's real. So you know, my way of thinking 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.720 about it is that and I think the participants feel 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:32.160 that way, is that the benefit to the public ultimately 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:41.320 fit it outweighs this this kind of sacrifice. But yeah, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.960 they're they're they're ethical questions here. I mean, I were 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:50.520 super sensitive when when people during the filming, if anyone 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.840 is feeling uncomfortable about what they're going through, they're always 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.400 free to like drop out and stop. It's people are 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.000 always doing it with like a great degree of like 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.920 wanting to do it, being grateful for doing it. There 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:11.920 there there's never any kind of pressure on them. So 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.120 but it's it's it's a complicated issue. 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:21.560 How involved are you in choosing which participants participate. I 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.240 assume the producers have their thoughts, but I'm curious if 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.880 you know, producers can say, hey, here's a couple with 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.880 an interesting dilemma, and you may find, you know, what, 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:35.160 these people need the real deal and maybe aren't suitable 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:35.560 for TV. 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:41.960 Yeah. There, there's there's a whole team that is that 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.880 they recruit people and they interview people, and there's there's 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.360 a team of psychologists that interview people before I meet them. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.280 So I'm not involved in any of that. I basically 0:15:54.320 --> 0:16:00.000 meet the people for the first session on camera. Oh, 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.280 but if I meet people and I feel like, I mean, 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.360 it's been very rare. But if I feel like people 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.480 are too vulnerable or there might be kind of an 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.680 issue that we didn't think about or that didn't come 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.000 up in earlier interviews, I can say I don't think 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.360 this is a good idea, this is too vulnerable a couple, 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.800 or let's say there's a vulnerable kid that's involved in 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.320 the family or something like that, And then I say, 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.440 this is not a good idea. But it's rare because 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:28.400 usually they do a really good job of screening. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:34.000 Sure, I guess I find as I watch that I 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.200 want to pay you the compliment of saying you really, 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.400 you know, you radiate a genuine integrity and it really 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.640 comes across. But it's also a bit of a backhanded 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.000 compliment because I worry about that. I worry about as 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.920 you become a more and more public figure, how you 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.920 protect that integrity and how you preserve it. I mean, 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.680 do you ever fear as you I mean, you're several 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.920 years into this now sort of a corruptive influence, because 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.960 sometimes I see a lot of no one does typically 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.840 what you do, but there are certain people whose names 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.600 I won't name, who are you know, therapists who go 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.960 into various modalities of this in the media, and I'm 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.520 amazed at the transformation over time, let's put it that gently. 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:27.440 Totally agree. And I'm very aware of the corruptive nature 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:34.560 that is lurking every corner, whether it's the corruptive nature 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.679 of money, you know, being offered to do something that 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.480 will pay you a lot of money but will be 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.880 kind of a real compromise to the profession, or the 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.919 corruptive nature of like somehow, you know, I don't know, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.720 somehow fame seems to have some kind of pull for 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.920 people I don't. That doesn't do much for me. But yeah, 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:59.040 there's always there's always, you know, on the corners of things. 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:04.160 There's always way that you can forget about your ethical principles. 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:09.840 And I'm very aware of it, and i try very 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.200 hard to protect myself. And I'm also just like you're 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.199 saying that you're worried, I'm worried too my own. I 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:20.679 think about it a lot. I'm it's I mean, especially nowadays, 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:27.840 there's there's just such a sliding slope where like ethics 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.040 and morals are like so cheap. Now, wow. 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.639 Well, but the thing is success always in in the 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:41.160 biz begets more opportunity. And I'm curious, you know, do 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.120 you have ambitions beyond this show in the media space. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.240 I don't have ambitions in the media space. I have 0:18:52.480 --> 0:19:01.720 I have, you know, somewhat ambitious mcgallu Mannic hopes to 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:09.240 contribute something to making the world a better place. That's 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.080 my real ambition is to somehow add to the forces 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:19.760 that are going against this kind of doggy dog world 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.399 we're facing. You know, I have things that matter to 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:28.800 me that I want to use this whatever engine I'm 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.200 getting behind me to contribute to things that matter. 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.399 So, you know, I could play Devil's advocate here and say, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.960 I hear what you're saying. The media is the place 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.119 to advance that cause. If you want to reach the 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:47.400 most people, So do this other show or produce this 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.440 other thing. How does that strike you? 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.280 If it's something I don't know, if I can produce 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.840 a show that will somehow help people deal with their 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:00.880 denial about climate or about what's going on, and or 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.159 I would do it. I'm open to doing things about 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.760 to participating in things that matter to me, and I 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:18.720 will I'm going to join an international peacemaking organization. I will, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.760 and I want to, and I appreciate kind of having 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.920 the opportunity to do that if I'm asked to join 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:32.920 in selling a product that doesn't help anyone, No. 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.480 Okay, but how do you think about the prospect of 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.119 what you do and the way you are doing it 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:45.399 on TV being done elsewhere? I guess I asked the 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.760 question because often when I watch your show, which I love, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:51.920 I say, oh my god, I could watch this all day. 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.639 This could be a whole network. Do you feel like 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.760 there's an untapped appeal regardless of whether you're the one capitalizing. 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:06.240 I think people can benefit and want to see people 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:11.480 doing therapy. Yes, if it's good therapy. I think the more. 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:13.600 I don't know if the more the better, but more 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:15.919 would be better. I think it would be great for 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:21.679 people to watch a lot of this, to watch people thinking, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:27.800 taking their time, thinking, analytically, listening to their unconscious, trying 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.640 to listen to their partner in a way that is compassionate, 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.680 in a way that is not about blaming or winning. Yeah, 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:37.480 I think it would be great if more of that 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:38.120 was out there. 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.080 What's also been interesting and I don't know if you've 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.720 seen this is the way your show has taken on 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:50.240 a second life in social media. I constantly see clips. 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:54.000 Are you aware of that? Do you have any I'm aware. 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.160 Of that because I go and sit at my regular 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:58.400 cafe here and people come up to me and they 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.320 say to me, like, I love your social media, and 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:08.000 I'm like, I don't have social media. I'm aware that 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:11.040 there's like a lot out there. I'm not part of it, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.199 but yes, I'm aware that it's out there and that 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:15.560 that's where a lot of people live. 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:21.800 Yeah, perhaps even more so than Showtime or Paramount Plus itself. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.200 But it's also like you kind of have less control 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.520 over that. So I was curious, is it a double 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.720 edged sword where it's like, Okay, there's more exposure, great, 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:34.400 but less control. 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.439 I don't actually know what to do with that. Do 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:39.560 you have any suggestions? 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.400 Well, it would start, and I'm not advocating you get 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.400 an official account because that does not sound like your 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.440 cup of tea, And to some degree, I don't think 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:53.480 you can control it. I mean, I've seen I tet 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:57.120 to disturb you at this, but like I've seen your 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:02.600 voice get taken and trained with AI so that it 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:06.400 looks like there are accounts run by you. I mean, 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.720 that's got to be disturbing, though frankly it's not particularly 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.600 well done, so I don't know who would fall for this. 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:17.160 Wow. Okay, that's that's. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.960 A lot, I know. On a less dark note, I 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:25.600 I don't know if you've seen there. You have imitators 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:30.359 meaning impressionists who people have sent me funny memes. 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:34.600 Yes, I love the humor. I mean the more humor 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:35.879 the better. Yeah, that's right. 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:38.800 I will shout out a gentleman on tik toktalk named 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:44.919 Miguel Luciano who does a flawless and flattering imitation of you. 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.320 And I was just curious if you had seen it, 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:50.359 and do you Are you disturbed by that or flattered? 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:53.400 Or I love humor, even. 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:57.320 If it's at your expense totally? What's the ill Luciano, 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:04.840 Miguel Luciano, Okay, I want to reward good work by 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.800 publicizing it, and I think you will not be disturbed 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:09.240 by it. 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.639 No, I love humor and humor at my expense. Please 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:14.520 bring it on. I'm all for that. 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:17.919 Well, but it's interesting to hear that I think you 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.760 know a sense of humor isn't necessarily something you get 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:27.040 to show off in a psychotherapy setting. And my guess is, 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:29.720 and tell me if I'm wrong. Producers are probably pushed like, hey, 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:33.280 we want to see more of you outside the office 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:36.520 on the show, open up your private life. You get 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:38.320 those pressures. How do you feel about that? 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:43.040 I originally when we started making the show, the director's 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:46.159 Josh and Elise and Eli, they were like, well why not? 0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:50.399 And I kept explaining I would I remember like I 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:55.760 would read them passages from LACAN to explain why it's 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:58.720 very important to maintain a certain wall of privacy. It's 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:01.760 why it's important for the trans it's important for the process. 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:05.000 It's not and I'm also private, but I also really 0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:08.960 believe that the show will do better if it's not 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:14.760 about my private life. That it's not kind of cheap 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:19.560 idolization of the therapist. But it's the emphasis on the process, 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:26.320 not on the person. And they realize as we continued 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:29.119 making the show, they realize that it's true that people 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:34.440 don't need personal information about me. They need a way 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:38.679 of thinking. They need the insights I mean, not the nonsense. 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:43.480 Got it? And do you correct me if I'm wrong? 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:46.760 You still maintain an actual, real life practice. 0:25:47.320 --> 0:25:49.879 Yes, that is my real life. I still that's what 0:25:50.040 --> 0:25:53.720 matters to me the most, my patience, and that's never 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:54.480 going to change. 0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:57.920 But I can't imagine, and again, correct me if I'm 0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:03.520 wrong that your media presence doesn't somehow impact the real life. 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:08.720 It must your real patients must see this, and who 0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:11.840 knows how that impacts the process. 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.679 Yeah, First of all, not all of my real patients 0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:19.960 see Some choose not to watch. They just know about it. 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:25.520 And Okay, I've said this in other interviews that I 0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:28.880 feel like my real patients are actually the ones that 0:26:29.000 --> 0:26:34.119 carry the most burden of this show because they didn't 0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:37.240 necessarily ask for it. They didn't, I didn't. They didn't 0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:39.720 start working with me knowing that I'm a public figure 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:43.360 that I'm going to be and suddenly, you know, their 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:49.639 mother can see their therapist on TV. It's not necessarily great, 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:54.720 and so I think it's not great for my private 0:26:54.800 --> 0:27:03.680 practice patients. But that's the price, and I think they 0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:06.120