WEBVTT - The Karol Markowicz Show: Getting Hammered with Mary Katherine Ham 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.040 Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.320 the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio. 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.040 I think after the last few days, we need a 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:17.000 palette cleanser, So let's talk about sex. People aren't having it. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.360 Study after study shows a downward trend in the number 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:25.480 of people having sex. One study in twenty twenty one 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.360 showed twenty six percent of adult Americans hadn't had sex 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.839 in the last year. A large study from two thousand 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.120 to twenty eighteen showed an increasing number of people eighteen 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.640 to thirty four reported having no sex or far less 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:45.160 frequent sex than years prior. Nearly forty percent of young 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.519 adults surveyed in California in twenty twenty one had no 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.040 sexual partners in the prior year at all. I know 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.400 California is weird, but still, I feel like in the 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:59.000 nineteen eighties and maybe nineties, sex was very much in 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.520 and now out. All of the comedies of that age 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.800 put sex front and center. For example, I'm not saying 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.400 bring back the gratuitous nudity of the movies of the 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.880 nineteen eighties, but it's almost like sex has become passe. 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.120 I'm going to talk about our declining birth rates in 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.560 later episodes, but that's not what I mean here. I 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.920 literally mean people are not having sex, and this is 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:30.520 having a serious negative impact on our society. In November 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.679 of twenty twenty one, I wrote a piece for The 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:37.800 Spectator magazine called Life After Sex. The pandemic was obviously 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.880 pretty un sexy, I wrote, quote, life could not have 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.840 been less sexy lately, the neighborhood busybody calling the police 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.320 on your backyard party, half of everyone's face covered by 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.880 a mask, everyone drinking too much, staying in their pajamas 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.120 all day, and putting on the quarantine fifteen end quote. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.720 But it wasn't just that. We've been going through some 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.880 pretty significant societal changes, I wrote, quote. Social changes are 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:10.080 also ratcheting down the sexy fifty seven genders only sounds 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.400 cool to a teenager. An adult hearing someone as a 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.280 pan buy trans non binary fem will just tune out 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.200 and go search up porn hub for something that makes sense. 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.800 Porn use, of course, is way up. People might not 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.080 want to have actual sex, but they're not giving up 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:31.119 their porn. It's a new world. Click click relief far 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.800 easier than making it work in the new normal, whatever 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.400 that is this month sexy is so old fashioned. End quote. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.799 There's really something to that we used to accept without 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:48.240 too much introspection, what we found generally attractive for men. Yes, 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.280 the Victoria's Secret model type was what the majority of 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.080 men would turn to look at in the street. It 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.960 doesn't mean men aren't attracted to the ninety nine point 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.720 nine percent of us who don't look like these models, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.600 but it was just acceptable to say these women are 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.200 beautiful and most men will find them attractive. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:06.320 It was obvious. 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.919 It was right around the time of that Spectator piece 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.480 that Victoria's Secret decided to change their whole guiding philosophy 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.000 around this. They announced and I wrote, that they'll be 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.200 phasing out They're impossibly gorgeous and fit angels. Instead, they'll 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.240 be going with leading icons and change makers, including the 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:29.320 soccer star Megan Rapino, the transgender model Valentina Simpeo, the 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:33.680 plus size model Paloma Alsessor, and seventeen year old skier 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.440 Eileen Goo. These new icons won't be posing in lingerie, 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.320 but sharing their inspirational stories in a ten episode podcast, 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:47.000 So Hot. End quote. Women don't put on lingerie to 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.640 be inspired, and men don't look at women in lingerie 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.520 to see a change maker. Lingerie is made for sex. 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.800 That obvious statement is no longer obvious. People can be 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.680 attracted to whatever they want, and there's a wide range 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.720 of what people like. But I really oppose the whole 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.760 what you're supposed to like idea for both men and women. 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.200 When the show mad Men was all the rage, women 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.640 loved Don Draper. He was handsome, he was a man's man, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.400 but also, you know, kind of a lothario who was 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.560 bad to his women. So there were all these hand 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.800 ringing think pieces from self described feminists about how they 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.520 were attracted to him, like TIHI but you know, felt 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.080 so bad about it. By the way, no man in 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.200 history has ever felt bad about who he was attracted to. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:41.640 Never ever. I was not attracted to Don Draper. He 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.719 seemed like too much of a project to me. In fact, 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.159 my celebrity crush is Drone from FOUDA kind of a 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:50.559 hot moment for that right now. 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.760 But he's like the protector. 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:56.640 Guy, and he's a badass, and like my husband, he's Israeli. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.000 That's sulking. Don Draper guy really did nothing for me. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.400 And I also didn't feel like there was anyone that 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.640 I was supposed to like or not supposed to like, 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.279 and so it lets me like who I like. But 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.200 so now it feels like men are getting that same 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.919 pressure about what they're supposed to like. And that helps 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:20.320 explain why sex is on the decline. We like what 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.040 we like and being made to feel bad about that 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.520 really doesn't work. We're not going to find some do 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:31.880 good or attractive just because we're supposed to. I say 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.120 that women have always gotten the advice to not be 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:39.479 attracted to what they're actually attracted to. I think when 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.240 we see women not consider attraction in the guy that 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.719 they're marrying, that's a problem, and it's one of the 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:50.880 reasons we see mismatched libidos and marriages. You should marry 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.360 a man who's good to you, who's a good provider, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.719 who will take care of his family. Yes, yes to 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.280 all of that, but he should also be a man 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.400 you want to have sex with. A marriage without sex 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.160 is a friendship. I sometimes talk about how sex is 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.320 the most important part of a marriage, and it actually 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.120 makes people annoyed because they say no, so many other 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.960 things matter, you know, trust matters, or compatibility matters, and 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.159 of course, all of that matters. When I say most 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.960 important thing in a relationship, I don't say only important 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.599 thing in a relationship. A lot of other things matter, 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.839 but sex is really front and center. Otherwise what you 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.839 have is a friendship. One of the wild things I 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.520 discovered during that during while I was writing that Spectator 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.520 piece is that there was a study conducted during the 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:40.760 pandemic that found that cohabiting couples actually masturbated more and 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.719 had sex less during the lockdowns. I mean, that's crazy, 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.680 But I'll side note this by bringing it back to 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.200 my first episode, where my monologue was in favor of marriage, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.560 that married people have more sex than anyone. I bring 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.240 this message to college kids all the time. It's a 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.799 lie that marriage is the end of a sex life. 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.120 In a lot of cases, it's very much the beginning. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.520 So what's the point sex is good? Yeah, that's the 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.800 point sex is good. One of my favorite things to 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.640 hit is that we have to point things out, even 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:18.440 if it's just to ourselves. Treat sex as important. It's useful, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.960 look for better sleep and better health, lower stress, and 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.400 it's just a good time. So you know, go do 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.480 it right now or after this show is over. Coming 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.960 up next in interview with Mary Katherine Ham join us 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:38.920 after the break. I would say that when I was 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.239 thinking about guests that I would have in the future, 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.760 and when I thought about interviewing MK, it was one 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.840 of those where I thought, it's twenty to thirty minutes 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.040 going to be enough because I have a lot of 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.600 things I want to cover with her, but we'll do 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:54.920 our best to get to everything. And it's so nice 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.240 to have you, Mary Catherine. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:57.800 Oh, thank you so much for having me. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.880 So the overall theme of this show is going to 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.760 be how to be happier, how to improve your life, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.200 but also how to do things like find the right 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.680 relationship or how to make friends in adulthood. And I 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.640 love everything you write. I'm legitimately like, I think you're 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.520 such a beautiful writer. But one of my favorite things 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.360 that you've written was back in twenty seventeen on the 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:23.280 Federalist website about trying to make mom friends. And it 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.480 was called the internal Monologue of a new Mom making 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.560 Mom Friends, so everybody should google it. It was hilarious 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.000 and brilliant, and so in thinking of this question, I 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.360 also I confused that piece with the interaction the time 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:40.000 that your daughter peed on a potential friend. Separate story. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.720 It's a good one accidentally obviously, but you know, so, 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:46.040 how is. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.960 Adult potty training comes with certain challenges? 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.559 This plus is and minuses to all friendships. So how 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:57.400 is the adult friend making going growing up actually making? 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.000 Because I feel like adult friend making sounds like something different. 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:01.679 Yes, yes, I did. 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:04.920 I think in that piece I suggested that there should 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.880 be basically tender for moms and I. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:11.640 Was like, oh, that's weird. Is that that'll get a 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.120 lot of clicks? But I'm not sure that's what I mean. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:18.000 So, and I should say, also, just to exonerate my 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.400 poor daughter, yes, she was potty training. I took her 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.320 to a park and she said, no, Mom, I definitely 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:25.319 don't need a diaper today. 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.199 I am good to go. And I was like, great, 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:28.240 that sounds awesome. 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.600 And when we got in the car, she told me 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.080 I peed at the park and that little girl yelled 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:38.760 at me, and I said, oh, well, I'm sure she 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.840 was just surprised, you know, no, biggie. And then it 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.760 turns out that what happened was the girl was standing 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.840 under her on the play structure when this happened. So 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:52.280 still fair, I did not ever get time. I didn't 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.480 ever get in touch with that mom again. But anyway, 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.200 so that friendship was out, but the adult friend making 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.080 is pretty good. It's it's an interesting quoest because I think, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.960 when you have kids, you wonder, do I need to 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.440 make a completely different set of friends who also have 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.400 kids and are dealing with the same phase of life 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.720 that I'm in, Or can I import my old friends 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.640 who are also moms now, which is kind of That's 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.719 a lot of what I've done. I have several in 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.320 the area who we were friends before we were moms, 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.440 one in particular from college, who we parent similarly, which 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.040 is a huge part of making those kinds of friends, 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:31.760 and so I do a. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:32.280 Little bit of that. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.440 I also am thankful that in several neighborhoods I've lived 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.000 in in the DC area, I have had really good 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.720 friends nearby who also had similar values and similar parenting styles. 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.400 On the corner I lived in before I moved here, 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.120 when I was a single mom, there were two sec 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:55.800 fan houses on either side of me. Granted, LSU and Auburn, 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.199 but look, you deal with what you deal with when 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.080 you come to another place, and they had you know, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.200 they understood me and the football and had rough and 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.839 tumble kids, and we went through a tough time together 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.079 obviously in my life, and so I was able to 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.760 make friends there. And then I moved and I moved 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.079 close to an army base, and now I have my 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.600 army mom friends and they are fantastic. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.120 That sounds really good. Does it being a public person 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:24.840 hinder that or help it? 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.880 I think it hinders it more than anything, because mainly 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.880 because I actually one thing I do in an attempt 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:39.479 to make mom friends or adult friends in my vicinity 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.400 is that I don't engage with their social media until 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.880 after I've talked with them for a while, like, that's 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.400 not the first place I want to go. Much like 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.040 your neighborhood lists serve, I feel like the reason you're 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.599 going there is more than like you're just going to 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.240 end up hating your neighbors, and that's not what I'm 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.079 interested in doing. So there are several friends I have 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.000 whom if I had seen their social media first, I 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.959 would have assumed a they would dislike me, and be 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.280 that I might not like them. And it turns out 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.560 that social media can just put a different tinge on things. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.760 Not everybody has a very the same tone as I do. 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.360 And you know, it could just look very different for 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.679 different people, and it can look very different from their 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.400 real life persona. And so I want to get to 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.080 know the real life person and then we can delve 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:27.720 into that later. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:28.360 With me. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:33.360 That sometimes becomes impossible if someone you know, clocks me 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.120 as a public person first. But it hasn't caused a 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:37.640 ton of. 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:42.080 Problems, right, So, You've had a really amazing career. I've 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.200 you know, I feel like I've been along for the 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.680 ride for a lot of it. And you were most 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:53.439 recently at CNN. I was a splashy departure. Would you 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:53.839 say that. 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.800 Yeah, I think that's fair. I felt like I needed 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:57.600 to get some shots in. 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.319 Can you tell listeners what happened? 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:02.160 Yes? 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.000 So I was at CNN from twenty fifteen until this spring. 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.840 Before that, I was at Fox. I actually enjoyed very 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.280 much being at CNN. I went over there with the 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.960 intention of being the weirdo on the set, being the 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.000 person who says the thing that other people don't say. Now, 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.600 at that time, I think this is in the very 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.640 this is in the earlier Zucker years. It's as Trump 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.000 is headed toward the nomination, but We didn't know that 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.240 at the time, and I felt like it was a 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.680 pretty nice place to be and did responsible work and 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:38.240 had Trump supporters and Trump critical commentators on mostly every 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.760 panel I was on, and I enjoyed that very much. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.840 This is the nicest thing anybody's ever said about CNN. 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.640 By the way, well, that was meeting on the left, 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.880 you know, that was twenty fifteen and sixteen. I do 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.040 felt I feel like it really took a turn and 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.480 that this if I am, I allowed to say, pissing 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:01.880 match between Zucker and Trump led to really bad news 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:07.240 coverage and really bad incentives because everyone knew that the 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.520 more you try to nail Trump, the more airtime you're 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:12.080 gonna get. 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.480 And it was very. 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.120 Obvious, and it was obvious to me that I wasn't 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.400 doing the right things to get the airtime. Now that 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.400 does not mean that certain journalists didn't put me on 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.280 the air. I was on Tapper Show a lot. There 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.040 were people who made an effort to get me out there. 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.040 John Berman is another one who was fun to be 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.720 on with. But in general, institutionally I was not doing 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.000 what needed to be done right in the eyes of management. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.200 So my career sort of like tailed off in that way. 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.920 Then we hit COVID. Then in twenty twenty one and 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.680 twenty two, I'm off air for months and months and 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:46.520 months and months. 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.800 Now I had two babies in two years. So I'm like, 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:49.440 am I. 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.080 So sad about that? I'm not so sad about it? 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.400 But I am employed by this place, and what's happening? 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.640 So I started asking questions and I can't figure out 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.000 what's happening, Like why am I never on? I'm pitching columns, nothing, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.720 nothing's working. And finally, after Chris Lick joins for his 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.240 short short tenure at CNN, I get a call from 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.360 somebody in management or HR who explains to me what happened. 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.640 And here's what happened is that I was put on 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:20.360 the bench, suspended without my knowledge. Everyone told Zucker, told 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.280 the shows not to use me because I had tweeted 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.320 criticism of Jeffrey Tuban. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:30.440 That is yeah. 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:35.520 Jeffrey Tubban was a legal commentator who was in his 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.200 capacity as at another job, had been caught on a 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:45.280 zoom pleasuring himself, and he had not been fired from CNN. 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.000 As a result of this interaction, he was benched and 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:54.320 then brought back somewhat triumphantly with a like an interview 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.880 by Alison Camarata. It was very strange and he I 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.960 wondered to myself, how long was I punished for criticizing 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.400 him versus how long he was punished? And the answer 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.320 is he was off air for eight months and I 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:10.880 was off air for seven months. 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.720 Right, So that's the price for me. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.720 Saying, get to show anybody anything you know? 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.280 No I know, And I thought to myself, man, I 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.400 really I could have had only fans and a career 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.680 and I just had a political commentary career. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.560 But no, it's just so, it's so deeply unfair. 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.280 Part of it was that the context of the conversation 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.160 that I was having on Twitter was one where I 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.000 was critical of media coverage, including CNN of the congressional 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.800 baseball shooting that rubs people the wrong way. But I 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:40.920 felt like it needed to be said, and I should 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:42.840 not have used that phrase that I just used, but 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:49.000 right that that conversation included this tweet about two but 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.760 and apparently that was that was a bridge too far, guys. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.120 And so I wasn't ever fired or let go or 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.800 laid off. I was asked to come back, and I 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:01.200 was I to come back with a smile on my 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.280 face and just move on. And I did not feel 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:05.800 like I could do that, and so I wrote a 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.879 piece about what actually happened, right, So then I left 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:10.879 like six months later. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.320 Yeah. So I think when people hear stories like this, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.679 they imagine there's like a lawsuit that follows some something 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.000 like this, for like this kind of bad behavior from 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.239 a company like that that they benched you, you know, 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.200 I mean in the era following me to the idea 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:32.280 that they benched a female commentator for saying, Hey, exposing 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.320 yourself on you know, a zoom call maybe is not 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.960 the best way to go, and yet you were punished 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.120 for it. So like, is there any repercussions for them? 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:42.639 Will there be? 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.440 I mean not really, no. My the repercussion that made 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.080 me happy was that it would be public. And I 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.959 knew that if I attempted a lawsuit, I would have 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.680 a non disparagement or something along those lines, and that 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.800 that would be part of the agreement. And honestly, as 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.639 a contract employee, I don't have them any rights. They 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.320 have every right not to put me on air. That 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.000 was a very bad reason to not put me on air, 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:09.679 But they can do that because I was not a 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:11.879 full time employee. If I had been a full time employee, 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.239 different scene. But one of my objections, both publicly and 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.040 to the HR person that I spoke to, was during 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.160 the era of Me Too, when I was on air, 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.560 I was asked to comment on every errant penis in 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:30.359 the entire media, Hollywood, politics, world, over and over and 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.960 over again, sports as well, and I rejected the idea 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:35.879 that this was the one I was not allowed to 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.280 talk about. I rejected, that's right, Yeah, I'm not protecting 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.359 this one and still talking about all of these. 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.320 Did you feel like was it because you weren't politically 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.880 aligned with CNN's agenda, Like if you had been a 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.160 liberal commentator or you know, just generally on the left, 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.640 do you think the same thing would have happened. Yeah. 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.560 I think I hit like a double whammy here, which 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.360 is a woman on the right, Like. 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.960 There was a boys club involved, Tuban was part of it. 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.560 I was not. I also wasn't part of the ideological club. 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:16.440 So it's just too. 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.679 It was two strikes against me, and everyone's like, well, 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.520 how much do we care about hearing her errant opinions, 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:29.720 her problematic right wing opinions? They're not that interested, unfortunately 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:34.919 in half the country. And again, I just think it 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:40.080 makes it easier to punish someone like me because the 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.560 CNN faithful are not going to be super mad that 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.200 I'm not there, right, that's for sure. 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.720 But surely all the feminists sprang to your defense. 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.520 Right. Oh you know what, I didn't hear from anyone. 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.359 That's uh, that was not my experience, nor did I 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:57.840 expect it to be. I mean, that's one of the 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.959 things too. And this is just sort of not everything. 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.240 The left often tries to make everything a sexist issue, 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.800 a you know, whatever the ism is of the day, 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:12.000 and sometimes it's just that, like, life is tough and 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.520 people are self interested in general, and so if you're 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.479 asking people to stand up for you, that requires some courage, 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.480 that requires putting next out. And in the TV and 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.080 media business and politics, shall we say, that is less 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.600 likely to occur even than other areas. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.680 Right, So, post CNN, I love your podcast. I think 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.800 you're hilarious. Do you feel like you've made it in 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:39.439 your career? 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:41.600 Yes? 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.000 Because making it for me looks different than it does 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:46.800 for other people. And this is something again I think 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.320 our friends on the left do not allow for is 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:54.280 that I chose this career path, and despite speed bumps 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.080 that we were just talking about, I chose it because 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.520 I have a flexible schedule. I can and hang out 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:02.560 with my kids. I can be there after school for 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.879 my kids if I want to, and spend a lot 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:07.720 of time with family in flexible ways. 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.640 That's what I wanted to do. I often gave up 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.479 pay to make that happen. 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.960 I never wanted to host my own TV show. This 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.679 was not I'm not driven by the news cycle enough 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.359 in the way that one must be to anchor an 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:30.200 entire show that way. And I think that that makes 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.439 me happier and makes me better at reading what the 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.560 national mood actually is because most people are not driven 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:40.960 by the news cycle in the same way that we 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.960 have to be, and so I just don't get a 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:49.399 charge out of that enough to have been like the 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.439 head of a primetime show, right, And so I'm at 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.199 peace with that. I get to talk about things that 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:58.159 I like to talk about. I get to have a 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.680 little bit of an impact. I get to model being 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:06.800