1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: I think after the last few days, we need a 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: palette cleanser, So let's talk about sex. People aren't having it. 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Study after study shows a downward trend in the number 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: of people having sex. One study in twenty twenty one 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: showed twenty six percent of adult Americans hadn't had sex 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: in the last year. A large study from two thousand 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: to twenty eighteen showed an increasing number of people eighteen 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: to thirty four reported having no sex or far less 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: frequent sex than years prior. Nearly forty percent of young 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: adults surveyed in California in twenty twenty one had no 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: sexual partners in the prior year at all. I know 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: California is weird, but still, I feel like in the 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties and maybe nineties, sex was very much in 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: and now out. All of the comedies of that age 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: put sex front and center. For example, I'm not saying 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: bring back the gratuitous nudity of the movies of the 19 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, but it's almost like sex has become passe. 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about our declining birth rates in 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: later episodes, but that's not what I mean here. I 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: literally mean people are not having sex, and this is 23 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: having a serious negative impact on our society. In November 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, I wrote a piece for The 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Spectator magazine called Life After Sex. The pandemic was obviously 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: pretty un sexy, I wrote, quote, life could not have 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: been less sexy lately, the neighborhood busybody calling the police 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: on your backyard party, half of everyone's face covered by 29 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: a mask, everyone drinking too much, staying in their pajamas 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: all day, and putting on the quarantine fifteen end quote. 31 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just that. We've been going through some 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: pretty significant societal changes, I wrote, quote. Social changes are 33 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: also ratcheting down the sexy fifty seven genders only sounds 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: cool to a teenager. An adult hearing someone as a 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: pan buy trans non binary fem will just tune out 36 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: and go search up porn hub for something that makes sense. 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: Porn use, of course, is way up. People might not 38 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: want to have actual sex, but they're not giving up 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,119 Speaker 1: their porn. It's a new world. Click click relief far 40 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: easier than making it work in the new normal, whatever 41 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: that is this month sexy is so old fashioned. End quote. 42 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: There's really something to that we used to accept without 43 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: too much introspection, what we found generally attractive for men. Yes, 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: the Victoria's Secret model type was what the majority of 45 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: men would turn to look at in the street. It 46 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: doesn't mean men aren't attracted to the ninety nine point 47 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: nine percent of us who don't look like these models, 48 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: but it was just acceptable to say these women are 49 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: beautiful and most men will find them attractive. 50 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: It was obvious. 51 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: It was right around the time of that Spectator piece 52 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: that Victoria's Secret decided to change their whole guiding philosophy 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: around this. They announced and I wrote, that they'll be 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: phasing out They're impossibly gorgeous and fit angels. Instead, they'll 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: be going with leading icons and change makers, including the 56 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: soccer star Megan Rapino, the transgender model Valentina Simpeo, the 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: plus size model Paloma Alsessor, and seventeen year old skier 58 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: Eileen Goo. These new icons won't be posing in lingerie, 59 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: but sharing their inspirational stories in a ten episode podcast, 60 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: So Hot. End quote. Women don't put on lingerie to 61 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: be inspired, and men don't look at women in lingerie 62 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: to see a change maker. Lingerie is made for sex. 63 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: That obvious statement is no longer obvious. People can be 64 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: attracted to whatever they want, and there's a wide range 65 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: of what people like. But I really oppose the whole 66 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to like idea for both men and women. 67 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: When the show mad Men was all the rage, women 68 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: loved Don Draper. He was handsome, he was a man's man, 69 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: but also, you know, kind of a lothario who was 70 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: bad to his women. So there were all these hand 71 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: ringing think pieces from self described feminists about how they 72 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: were attracted to him, like TIHI but you know, felt 73 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: so bad about it. By the way, no man in 74 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: history has ever felt bad about who he was attracted to. 75 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: Never ever. I was not attracted to Don Draper. He 76 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: seemed like too much of a project to me. In fact, 77 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: my celebrity crush is Drone from FOUDA kind of a 78 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:50,559 Speaker 1: hot moment for that right now. 79 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: But he's like the protector. 80 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: Guy, and he's a badass, and like my husband, he's Israeli. 81 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: That's sulking. Don Draper guy really did nothing for me. 82 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: And I also didn't feel like there was anyone that 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: I was supposed to like or not supposed to like, 84 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: and so it lets me like who I like. But 85 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: so now it feels like men are getting that same 86 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: pressure about what they're supposed to like. And that helps 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: explain why sex is on the decline. We like what 88 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: we like and being made to feel bad about that 89 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: really doesn't work. We're not going to find some do 90 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: good or attractive just because we're supposed to. I say 91 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: that women have always gotten the advice to not be 92 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: attracted to what they're actually attracted to. I think when 93 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: we see women not consider attraction in the guy that 94 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: they're marrying, that's a problem, and it's one of the 95 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: reasons we see mismatched libidos and marriages. You should marry 96 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: a man who's good to you, who's a good provider, 97 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: who will take care of his family. Yes, yes to 98 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: all of that, but he should also be a man 99 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: you want to have sex with. A marriage without sex 100 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: is a friendship. I sometimes talk about how sex is 101 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: the most important part of a marriage, and it actually 102 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: makes people annoyed because they say no, so many other 103 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: things matter, you know, trust matters, or compatibility matters, and 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: of course, all of that matters. When I say most 105 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: important thing in a relationship, I don't say only important 106 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: thing in a relationship. A lot of other things matter, 107 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: but sex is really front and center. Otherwise what you 108 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: have is a friendship. One of the wild things I 109 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: discovered during that during while I was writing that Spectator 110 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: piece is that there was a study conducted during the 111 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: pandemic that found that cohabiting couples actually masturbated more and 112 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: had sex less during the lockdowns. I mean, that's crazy, 113 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: But I'll side note this by bringing it back to 114 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: my first episode, where my monologue was in favor of marriage, 115 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: that married people have more sex than anyone. I bring 116 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: this message to college kids all the time. It's a 117 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: lie that marriage is the end of a sex life. 118 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: In a lot of cases, it's very much the beginning. 119 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: So what's the point sex is good? Yeah, that's the 120 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: point sex is good. One of my favorite things to 121 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: hit is that we have to point things out, even 122 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: if it's just to ourselves. Treat sex as important. It's useful, 123 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: look for better sleep and better health, lower stress, and 124 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: it's just a good time. So you know, go do 125 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: it right now or after this show is over. Coming 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: up next in interview with Mary Katherine Ham join us 127 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: after the break. I would say that when I was 128 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,239 Speaker 1: thinking about guests that I would have in the future, 129 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: and when I thought about interviewing MK, it was one 130 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: of those where I thought, it's twenty to thirty minutes 131 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: going to be enough because I have a lot of 132 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: things I want to cover with her, but we'll do 133 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: our best to get to everything. And it's so nice 134 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: to have you, Mary Catherine. 135 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 136 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: So the overall theme of this show is going to 137 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: be how to be happier, how to improve your life, 138 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: but also how to do things like find the right 139 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: relationship or how to make friends in adulthood. And I 140 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: love everything you write. I'm legitimately like, I think you're 141 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: such a beautiful writer. But one of my favorite things 142 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: that you've written was back in twenty seventeen on the 143 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: Federalist website about trying to make mom friends. And it 144 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: was called the internal Monologue of a new Mom making 145 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: Mom Friends, so everybody should google it. It was hilarious 146 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: and brilliant, and so in thinking of this question, I 147 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: also I confused that piece with the interaction the time 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: that your daughter peed on a potential friend. Separate story. 149 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: It's a good one accidentally obviously, but you know, so, 150 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: how is. 151 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: Adult potty training comes with certain challenges? 152 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: This plus is and minuses to all friendships. So how 153 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: is the adult friend making going growing up actually making? 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: Because I feel like adult friend making sounds like something different. 155 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I did. 156 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: I think in that piece I suggested that there should 157 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: be basically tender for moms and I. 158 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: Was like, oh, that's weird. Is that that'll get a 159 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: lot of clicks? But I'm not sure that's what I mean. 160 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: So, and I should say, also, just to exonerate my 161 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: poor daughter, yes, she was potty training. I took her 162 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 3: to a park and she said, no, Mom, I definitely 163 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 3: don't need a diaper today. 164 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 2: I am good to go. And I was like, great, 165 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: that sounds awesome. 166 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: And when we got in the car, she told me 167 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 3: I peed at the park and that little girl yelled 168 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: at me, and I said, oh, well, I'm sure she 169 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: was just surprised, you know, no, biggie. And then it 170 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: turns out that what happened was the girl was standing 171 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 3: under her on the play structure when this happened. So 172 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: still fair, I did not ever get time. I didn't 173 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: ever get in touch with that mom again. But anyway, 174 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 3: so that friendship was out, but the adult friend making 175 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: is pretty good. It's it's an interesting quoest because I think, 176 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: when you have kids, you wonder, do I need to 177 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 3: make a completely different set of friends who also have 178 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: kids and are dealing with the same phase of life 179 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: that I'm in, Or can I import my old friends 180 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 3: who are also moms now, which is kind of That's 181 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,719 Speaker 3: a lot of what I've done. I have several in 182 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 3: the area who we were friends before we were moms, 183 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: one in particular from college, who we parent similarly, which 184 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 3: is a huge part of making those kinds of friends, 185 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: and so I do a. 186 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: Little bit of that. 187 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: I also am thankful that in several neighborhoods I've lived 188 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: in in the DC area, I have had really good 189 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: friends nearby who also had similar values and similar parenting styles. 190 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: On the corner I lived in before I moved here, 191 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 3: when I was a single mom, there were two sec 192 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: fan houses on either side of me. Granted, LSU and Auburn, 193 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 3: but look, you deal with what you deal with when 194 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: you come to another place, and they had you know, 195 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: they understood me and the football and had rough and 196 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 3: tumble kids, and we went through a tough time together 197 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 3: obviously in my life, and so I was able to 198 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: make friends there. And then I moved and I moved 199 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 3: close to an army base, and now I have my 200 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 3: army mom friends and they are fantastic. 201 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: That sounds really good. Does it being a public person 202 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: hinder that or help it? 203 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 3: I think it hinders it more than anything, because mainly 204 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: because I actually one thing I do in an attempt 205 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,479 Speaker 3: to make mom friends or adult friends in my vicinity 206 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: is that I don't engage with their social media until 207 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: after I've talked with them for a while, like, that's 208 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: not the first place I want to go. Much like 209 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: your neighborhood lists serve, I feel like the reason you're 210 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,599 Speaker 3: going there is more than like you're just going to 211 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: end up hating your neighbors, and that's not what I'm 212 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 3: interested in doing. So there are several friends I have 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: whom if I had seen their social media first, I 214 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 3: would have assumed a they would dislike me, and be 215 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: that I might not like them. And it turns out 216 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 3: that social media can just put a different tinge on things. 217 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: Not everybody has a very the same tone as I do. 218 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: And you know, it could just look very different for 219 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 3: different people, and it can look very different from their 220 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: real life persona. And so I want to get to 221 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 3: know the real life person and then we can delve 222 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: into that later. 223 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: With me. 224 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 3: That sometimes becomes impossible if someone you know, clocks me 225 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: as a public person first. But it hasn't caused a 226 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 3: ton of. 227 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: Problems, right, So, You've had a really amazing career. I've 228 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I've been along for the 229 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: ride for a lot of it. And you were most 230 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: recently at CNN. I was a splashy departure. Would you 231 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 1: say that. 232 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's fair. I felt like I needed 233 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 3: to get some shots in. 234 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: Can you tell listeners what happened? 235 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: Yes? 236 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: So I was at CNN from twenty fifteen until this spring. 237 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 3: Before that, I was at Fox. I actually enjoyed very 238 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: much being at CNN. I went over there with the 239 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: intention of being the weirdo on the set, being the 240 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 3: person who says the thing that other people don't say. Now, 241 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 3: at that time, I think this is in the very 242 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: this is in the earlier Zucker years. It's as Trump 243 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: is headed toward the nomination, but We didn't know that 244 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 3: at the time, and I felt like it was a 245 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 3: pretty nice place to be and did responsible work and 246 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 3: had Trump supporters and Trump critical commentators on mostly every 247 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: panel I was on, and I enjoyed that very much. 248 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: This is the nicest thing anybody's ever said about CNN. 249 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: By the way, well, that was meeting on the left, 250 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 3: you know, that was twenty fifteen and sixteen. I do 251 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: felt I feel like it really took a turn and 252 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: that this if I am, I allowed to say, pissing 253 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 3: match between Zucker and Trump led to really bad news 254 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: coverage and really bad incentives because everyone knew that the 255 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: more you try to nail Trump, the more airtime you're 256 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 3: gonna get. 257 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: And it was very. 258 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 3: Obvious, and it was obvious to me that I wasn't 259 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 3: doing the right things to get the airtime. Now that 260 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 3: does not mean that certain journalists didn't put me on 261 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: the air. I was on Tapper Show a lot. There 262 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: were people who made an effort to get me out there. 263 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: John Berman is another one who was fun to be 264 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 3: on with. But in general, institutionally I was not doing 265 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: what needed to be done right in the eyes of management. 266 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 3: So my career sort of like tailed off in that way. 267 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: Then we hit COVID. Then in twenty twenty one and 268 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: twenty two, I'm off air for months and months and 269 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: months and months. 270 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: Now I had two babies in two years. So I'm like, 271 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: am I. 272 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: So sad about that? I'm not so sad about it? 273 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: But I am employed by this place, and what's happening? 274 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: So I started asking questions and I can't figure out 275 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 3: what's happening, Like why am I never on? I'm pitching columns, nothing, 276 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: nothing's working. And finally, after Chris Lick joins for his 277 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: short short tenure at CNN, I get a call from 278 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 3: somebody in management or HR who explains to me what happened. 279 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: And here's what happened is that I was put on 280 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: the bench, suspended without my knowledge. Everyone told Zucker, told 281 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: the shows not to use me because I had tweeted 282 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: criticism of Jeffrey Tuban. 283 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: That is yeah. 284 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Tubban was a legal commentator who was in his 285 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: capacity as at another job, had been caught on a 286 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: zoom pleasuring himself, and he had not been fired from CNN. 287 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 3: As a result of this interaction, he was benched and 288 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: then brought back somewhat triumphantly with a like an interview 289 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 3: by Alison Camarata. It was very strange and he I 290 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: wondered to myself, how long was I punished for criticizing 291 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: him versus how long he was punished? And the answer 292 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 3: is he was off air for eight months and I 293 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 3: was off air for seven months. 294 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: Right, So that's the price for me. 295 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: Saying, get to show anybody anything you know? 296 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: No I know, And I thought to myself, man, I 297 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: really I could have had only fans and a career 298 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: and I just had a political commentary career. 299 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: But no, it's just so, it's so deeply unfair. 300 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 3: Part of it was that the context of the conversation 301 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 3: that I was having on Twitter was one where I 302 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 3: was critical of media coverage, including CNN of the congressional 303 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: baseball shooting that rubs people the wrong way. But I 304 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: felt like it needed to be said, and I should 305 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: not have used that phrase that I just used, but 306 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: right that that conversation included this tweet about two but 307 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 3: and apparently that was that was a bridge too far, guys. 308 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 3: And so I wasn't ever fired or let go or 309 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: laid off. I was asked to come back, and I 310 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: was I to come back with a smile on my 311 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 3: face and just move on. And I did not feel 312 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 3: like I could do that, and so I wrote a 313 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 3: piece about what actually happened, right, So then I left 314 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 3: like six months later. 315 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think when people hear stories like this, 316 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: they imagine there's like a lawsuit that follows some something 317 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: like this, for like this kind of bad behavior from 318 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 1: a company like that that they benched you, you know, 319 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: I mean in the era following me to the idea 320 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: that they benched a female commentator for saying, Hey, exposing 321 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: yourself on you know, a zoom call maybe is not 322 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: the best way to go, and yet you were punished 323 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: for it. So like, is there any repercussions for them? 324 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: Will there be? 325 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: I mean not really, no. My the repercussion that made 326 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: me happy was that it would be public. And I 327 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 3: knew that if I attempted a lawsuit, I would have 328 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 3: a non disparagement or something along those lines, and that 329 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: that would be part of the agreement. And honestly, as 330 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: a contract employee, I don't have them any rights. They 331 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: have every right not to put me on air. That 332 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 3: was a very bad reason to not put me on air, 333 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 3: But they can do that because I was not a 334 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 3: full time employee. If I had been a full time employee, 335 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,239 Speaker 3: different scene. But one of my objections, both publicly and 336 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: to the HR person that I spoke to, was during 337 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 3: the era of Me Too, when I was on air, 338 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: I was asked to comment on every errant penis in 339 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: the entire media, Hollywood, politics, world, over and over and 340 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 3: over again, sports as well, and I rejected the idea 341 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 3: that this was the one I was not allowed to 342 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: talk about. I rejected, that's right, Yeah, I'm not protecting 343 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 3: this one and still talking about all of these. 344 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: Did you feel like was it because you weren't politically 345 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: aligned with CNN's agenda, Like if you had been a 346 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: liberal commentator or you know, just generally on the left, 347 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: do you think the same thing would have happened. Yeah. 348 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 3: I think I hit like a double whammy here, which 349 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 3: is a woman on the right, Like. 350 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: There was a boys club involved, Tuban was part of it. 351 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: I was not. I also wasn't part of the ideological club. 352 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: So it's just too. 353 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 3: It was two strikes against me, and everyone's like, well, 354 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 3: how much do we care about hearing her errant opinions, 355 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 3: her problematic right wing opinions? They're not that interested, unfortunately 356 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 3: in half the country. And again, I just think it 357 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 3: makes it easier to punish someone like me because the 358 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 3: CNN faithful are not going to be super mad that 359 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 3: I'm not there, right, that's for sure. 360 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: But surely all the feminists sprang to your defense. 361 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: Right. Oh you know what, I didn't hear from anyone. 362 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 3: That's uh, that was not my experience, nor did I 363 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: expect it to be. I mean, that's one of the 364 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,959 Speaker 3: things too. And this is just sort of not everything. 365 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 3: The left often tries to make everything a sexist issue, 366 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: a you know, whatever the ism is of the day, 367 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: and sometimes it's just that, like, life is tough and 368 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 3: people are self interested in general, and so if you're 369 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,479 Speaker 3: asking people to stand up for you, that requires some courage, 370 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 3: that requires putting next out. And in the TV and 371 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: media business and politics, shall we say, that is less 372 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: likely to occur even than other areas. 373 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: Right, So, post CNN, I love your podcast. I think 374 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: you're hilarious. Do you feel like you've made it in 375 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: your career? 376 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: Yes? 377 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 3: Because making it for me looks different than it does 378 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: for other people. And this is something again I think 379 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 3: our friends on the left do not allow for is 380 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 3: that I chose this career path, and despite speed bumps 381 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: that we were just talking about, I chose it because 382 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 3: I have a flexible schedule. I can and hang out 383 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: with my kids. I can be there after school for 384 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 3: my kids if I want to, and spend a lot 385 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: of time with family in flexible ways. 386 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to do. I often gave up 387 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 2: pay to make that happen. 388 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 3: I never wanted to host my own TV show. This 389 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 3: was not I'm not driven by the news cycle enough 390 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 3: in the way that one must be to anchor an 391 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 3: entire show that way. And I think that that makes 392 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 3: me happier and makes me better at reading what the 393 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 3: national mood actually is because most people are not driven 394 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 3: by the news cycle in the same way that we 395 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: have to be, and so I just don't get a 396 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 3: charge out of that enough to have been like the 397 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 3: head of a primetime show, right, And so I'm at 398 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 3: peace with that. I get to talk about things that 399 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 3: I like to talk about. I get to have a 400 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 3: little bit of an impact. I get to model being 401 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 3: the weirdo in the room for my kids and critical 402 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: thinking and all those things that I attempt to model 403 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 3: and sometimes courage sticking up for yourself and that's what 404 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 3: I want to do. That's the more important part of 405 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 3: a career for me than hitting whatever the C suite 406 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 3: goal is. 407 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: Right, So, you have four kids, You had a tragedy 408 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: happened in your life where you lost your first husband 409 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: in an accident, and it's recently you passed. Forgot how 410 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: many years it was, but you wrote a really beautiful 411 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: piece about the normalcy that existed before. You've also written 412 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: a lot about resilience, which I just love and think 413 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: that it's so important to teach resilience in model resilience, 414 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: and you've always just been to me like somebody who's 415 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: extremely strong, but real and honest and not pretend. So 416 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: how do you show your kids resiliency? 417 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 3: Like? 418 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: What what's some Mary Catherine Ham tips on showing your 419 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: kids how to be resilient? 420 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? 421 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 3: Well, first off, I would say that I would just 422 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 3: like to note the fact that when we met and 423 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: were drinking cocktails in Manhattan, when we used to hang out, 424 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 3: the idea that if you had told us that between 425 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: us we'd have seven kids. 426 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I'm not bringing up most of them. 427 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: I mean you have you know, you have the majority 428 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: here yeah, I'm. 429 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: Not sure we would have bought that. We both didn't. 430 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: Want to get married, you know, Loos. 431 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 3: It was a different time time, But yeah, I think. Look, 432 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 3: I think my kids aren't going to for a long 433 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 3: time understand what was happening to me during that time. 434 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: And I don't want them to write I wanted them. 435 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 3: I wanted to sort of get through that giving them 436 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 3: as little of my trauma as possible. And that is 437 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: something I think people have really lost sight of, which 438 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 3: is that you are supposed to stand in the breach 439 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: for your kids. 440 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: They are not your emotional crutch. 441 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 3: Yes, I want to have an open relationship with them, 442 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 3: and we work on communicating and all that, but there 443 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 3: are things that they are not called to deal with, 444 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: and in this particular case, especially, they were too young 445 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 3: to have trauma from this loss. One was my toddler 446 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 3: was two and barely verbal, and my young second was unborn. 447 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: I was seven months pregnant, so I knew that was 448 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 3: very helpful to me by the way, being pregnant, because 449 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 3: I knew I had to sort of keep it between 450 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 3: the navigational beacons to get this kid born safely, and 451 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: that that was my first priority. 452 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 2: And then parenting led me to do the same thing. 453 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 2: This is my priority. 454 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I neglect myself, but it does mean 455 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 3: that I'm really careful about the ways that I lean 456 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: on them and the ways that I try to get 457 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 3: through life. So I know I need to put that 458 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: baggage now do I hope someday that they understand it 459 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 3: a little bit, sure, But to me, the more important 460 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 3: thing is the day to day resilience in them, having 461 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 3: seen all of us as a family just get up 462 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 3: every day and do what we need to do. One 463 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: of the things I did in the very early days 464 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: because I there were times, as there are for anybody 465 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 3: who's going through something big, where you can't put together 466 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 3: an entire day, maybe you can't even put together half 467 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 3: a day. 468 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: But the thing that I. 469 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: Did was I made sure that I got up and 470 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: gave my kids breakfast every morning. And to me, that 471 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 3: was a very material It was often a hot breakfast. 472 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 3: I was like, look at me, I'm killing it. Guys, 473 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: I don't do that, but it's your own cereal, yes, 474 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 3: own milk. It felt very concrete that I was doing 475 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: the right thing by them if I could get that done, 476 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 3: and then they go to nap, and then I the. 477 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: Rest of the day's a waste. The rest of the 478 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: day's a waste. 479 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: Right, So I think seeing maybe learning some of those tools, 480 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 3: watching me do some of that over the years, I 481 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 3: hope translates. The other thing I think during COVID and 482 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 3: other times that have been scary, is just to be 483 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: rational about my concerns and to communicate those concerns rationally. 484 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: You know, when COVID came around, we weren't quite sure 485 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 3: what it looked like, but we did know that it 486 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: was not as dangerous to young people, and it wasn't 487 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 3: as dangerous to mom and dad, who are healthy and 488 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 3: in their forties, and so I made sure that they 489 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: knew that, and I told them we're also going to 490 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 3: be like a little bit more careful about the grandparents, 491 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: but it doesn't mean we're going to never talk to them, 492 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 3: which is apparently what some people did. I think, Yeah, 493 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 3: keeping your head about you in those times is really 494 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 3: important for kids, and then hopefully when they're adults, they 495 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 3: will also stand in the breach for their kids. 496 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: Because it's really I really feel like a lot of 497 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: people lost sight of that. 498 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I think the last few years have just 499 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: been people kind of cover bring up there already, you know, 500 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: previously held opinions with these new neurosis, like the grandparents, 501 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: Like how many people took the opportunity to never see 502 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: their in laws because they really trying to protect you 503 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: from the COVID, you know, like can't take any chances. 504 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: So I think that and people who wanted to work 505 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: from home or people who wanted to stay home all 506 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: the time and didn't want to go out kind of 507 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: used all of that as an excuse as well. So 508 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: to wrap up, I like to ask my guests to 509 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: end with the best tip for listeners on how they 510 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: can improve their lives. What do you think? 511 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm going to give two, even though that's 512 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 3: like a very pundity thing to do, but they're both. 513 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 3: They're both fairly practical and small. So the first one 514 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 3: is whenever things are going off, like feel like they 515 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 3: might be going off the rails for me, and this 516 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: included after Jake died. 517 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: Sometimes life is literally. 518 00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 3: Just about putting one foot in front of the other, 519 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: and if you can physically do that by taking a walk, 520 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 3: it will get you in a better place. Being outside 521 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 3: is good for you. Walking is good for you doing it. 522 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 3: This is awful important stuff. Yeah, you just literally touch grass. 523 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 3: And I did that in the days after Jake died. 524 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: I made sure I got outside every day, and of 525 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 3: course I was pregnant at the time. But drink more 526 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 3: water than wine is also a good rule of them. 527 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 3: But the second one is and I tweeted about this recently, 528 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 3: and I think it's a fairly simple fix for a 529 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: lot of people who might be in a bad place 530 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: when it comes to parenting. There's so much drama around parenting, 531 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 3: and it's a hard job, but it's also a beautiful 532 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 3: job and a fun job. And if you can surround 533 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: yourself with parents who really enjoy their children and don't 534 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 3: dwell on the drama and the hard parts as much 535 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 3: as they do the parts that they enjoy, for instance, 536 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 3: getting off maybe the Facebook mom group, which can be 537 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: almost inevitably toxic, and putting yourself with a group chat 538 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 3: of maybe some moms who look we all have struggles, 539 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: but we're also focusing on how much we actually enjoy 540 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: our families. That who you surround yourself with is going 541 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 3: to make a huge difference. And I try very hard 542 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 3: to make sure that I'm surrounded by people who, although 543 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: they have struggles, are not focusing on that one hundred 544 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 3: percent of the time. 545 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: I love that. I really do think that your mood 546 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 1: is so often decided by who you're surrounded by, and 547 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: if you're around miserable people who hate their kids or 548 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: hate their lives, it's going to rub off on you. 549 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: So that's really excellent advice. Well, thank you so much, 550 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 1: Mary Catherine, you are amazing. Subscribe to her substack and 551 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: listen to her amazing podcast Getting Hammered. I listen all 552 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: the time. Thank you so much for being on. 553 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Excited to be here. You make 554 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 3: it easy, Carol, everybody listen all the time. This is great. 555 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitch Show. 556 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: Subscribe where every you get your podcasts.