Speaker 1: Up next, How woud what you called part of the
Speaker 1: gang which switch? Earlier this month, Joe Biden became the
Speaker 1: first American president not to use the word God in
Speaker 1: its National Day of Prayer proclamation. With the Democratic Party
Speaker 1: becoming more radical and the left overtaking the culture, are
Speaker 1: we witnessing the end of faith in public life? I
Speaker 1: certainly hope not or will faith make a comeback? Today?
Speaker 1: I try to find the answers. This is Outlued with
Speaker 1: Gianno called one, but today on Outlive with Gianna Callwell,
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have a guest who I have
Speaker 1: a profound respect for. And the reason for their profound
Speaker 1: respect is because you rarely see an elected official who
Speaker 1: brings God into the workplace. And it's an honor to
Speaker 1: welcome on Bill Haslam, who is the former governor of Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining the program. Governor, Hey, thanks for
Speaker 1: having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: We're blessed to have you. Now, let me ask you
Speaker 1: this because before we jump into your book, which is
Speaker 1: title of Faithful Presence, The Promise and Peril of Faith
Speaker 1: in the Public Square, why don't you tell me about
Speaker 1: your background but professionally because you have a really interesting background.
Speaker 1: You've been on the board of Sacks Fifth Avenue and
Speaker 1: you've done tremendously well. So for God to do so
Speaker 1: well as you've done and jump into politics is pretty
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Yeah, So i'll give you the short form.
Speaker 1: Actually we don't need the short form just telling all right,
Speaker 1: I'll give you the medium form that you don't want
Speaker 1: to be here all day. So, actually, wasn't in college
Speaker 1: thought I would be a pastor. And my plan was
Speaker 1: to to teach high school for a couple of years
Speaker 1: and then be a pastor. And uh, my father's you know,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna be a pastor, you might be good
Speaker 1: to be around business for a couple of years and
Speaker 1: then you'd have exposure to that and then people you'd
Speaker 1: at least understand that world if if you're in a church.
Speaker 1: And I went to work in business for a couple
Speaker 1: of years and ended up deciding I wasn't called to
Speaker 1: be a pastor and ended up liking business um and
Speaker 1: stayed doing in the business world for twenty years, first
Speaker 1: with our family business that has a chain of truck
Speaker 1: stops across the country, and then went to work for Sachs.
Speaker 1: This is in the the new days of the internet.
Speaker 1: Literally it was internet retailing was brand new, this is
Speaker 1: the late nineties, and kind of helped them take their
Speaker 1: business online, which was interesting because I'm not a technical
Speaker 1: guy and I know nothing about fashion. But uh, the
Speaker 1: guy that was running the company just said, hey, we
Speaker 1: I'd like somebody just with some you know, the ability
Speaker 1: to build a team here that can make this happen.
Speaker 1: So I did that, and then, uh, right after I
Speaker 1: finished set up, some folks came to me and said, hey,
Speaker 1: you should think about running for mayor of knoxhll im
Speaker 1: from Knoxville, Tennessee. And I laughed and said, you got
Speaker 1: the wrong guy. I literally said, I literally have no interest.
Speaker 1: But then, well, you should think and pray about it.
Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to say no, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: think and pray about it. Uh, And so I did.
Speaker 1: And I been meeting every Friday morning with a group
Speaker 1: of guys kind of an accountability group for twenty five years,
Speaker 1: and I brought it to them thinking they would laugh,
Speaker 1: and they said, we think you should think and pray
Speaker 1: about that, and we'll pray with you. And same thing
Speaker 1: with my wife and I thought she would go, no, please,
Speaker 1: don't do that. You know. Um, the only thing that
Speaker 1: would be, you know, worse than being married to a pastor,
Speaker 1: be being married to a politician. Uh. But she said,
Speaker 1: you know, I think you should be serious about this,
Speaker 1: and uh and and pursue it. So ran for mayor
Speaker 1: and loved it. It's just you know, calling, they say,
Speaker 1: it's kind of where your desires meet the world's needs.
Speaker 1: And that's what being mayor was like of mown hometown.
Speaker 1: So ran in two thousand three, barely one really close election,
Speaker 1: ran in two thousand and seven and one again and
Speaker 1: then uh, same process running for governor, thinking about it,
Speaker 1: prayed about talking a lot of people. Ran in two
Speaker 1: thousand and ten and in love. I mean, being governor
Speaker 1: of your own home state is is, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: one of the best job there is. So I ran
Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, reelecting two thousand fourteen. Have
Speaker 1: been out of office for about two years now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you do fairly well in the primary too. It seems
Speaker 1: as though there was a lot of respect for you
Speaker 1: running for for these particular offices. Well, I think so,
Speaker 1: you know, political races sometimes you're about timing, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's times when the winds blowing one way and happens
Speaker 1: to be your way. At other times, sometimes you have
Speaker 1: a tail wind, sometimes you have a head wind. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so, as I said, my very first mayor's race
Speaker 1: was really close, and then after that we didn't have
Speaker 1: too many close ones, which is a lot. I can
Speaker 1: tell you this election nights when you're ahead by double
Speaker 1: digits are a lot more fun. And when you're quitting
Speaker 1: out the last precinct coming just more of a celebration there.
Speaker 1: And I tell you, being a pastor in some ways
Speaker 1: can can be like an elected official because you meant
Speaker 1: to serve as just a lot of politicians who get
Speaker 1: the serving part. Actually, I tell people that if if
Speaker 1: you and I swapped jobs and you you know, I
Speaker 1: went to be a pastor and you went to be
Speaker 1: in an office, you'd go This feels really familiar because
Speaker 1: it's a lot of relationships and it's also a lot
Speaker 1: of deciding between good things and other good things or
Speaker 1: bad things and worse things. You know, we're trying to
Speaker 1: decide are you're gonna put in the budget, you know,
Speaker 1: more money for mental health issues, or to pay teachers more,
Speaker 1: or to help more disabled children. Well, there's not a
Speaker 1: bad idea there, right, but you can't afford to do
Speaker 1: everything you want. It's like at the church, like we're
Speaker 1: gonna spend more on our middle school program or our
Speaker 1: worship or our outreach, you know, and there's not a
Speaker 1: bad idea there, but right, you can't do everything. So
Speaker 1: I tell my friends who are pastors that you could
Speaker 1: go be a mayor, governor and it would feel a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot more familiar than you might think. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Now what's really really interesting about you, I think is Forbes.
Speaker 1: Forbes has said, I believe it was Forbes said that
Speaker 1: you had a network of about two billion dollars. So
Speaker 1: you go from a businessman who has been extraordinarily successful
Speaker 1: to the public life. You don't need the job. You
Speaker 1: really have a servant's heart at that point, one could imagine,
Speaker 1: and you decide you're gonna get out there, you're gonna
Speaker 1: do it, and you're gonna make a difference in people's
Speaker 1: lives and you end up succeeding. Well I hope. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, the reason I ran was this, and
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really the reason I wrote wrote the book.
Speaker 1: It's easy in today's world for people just to give
Speaker 1: up on the public square on politics and say, well,
Speaker 1: I hate both of them. I hate both sides. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to hear any more of this.
Speaker 1: But if we really do care about the common good,
Speaker 1: if we really do care to seek the places of
Speaker 1: the uh, the peace of the places where God has
Speaker 1: called us, the leverage that you can bring in a
Speaker 1: government role is huge. I mean, like, we decided we
Speaker 1: want to put in a free community college program for
Speaker 1: everybody in the state. We could do that. I couldn't
Speaker 1: do that in a private citizen. Don't. I don't care
Speaker 1: how much money you have. You know, we decided we
Speaker 1: want to improve access uh for folks. Well you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know Warren Buffett or Bill Gates or who you know,
Speaker 1: whoever you want to pick, Jeff Bezos. They might have
Speaker 1: all the money they want to do everything world, but
Speaker 1: they can't build their own interstate system. And in government,
Speaker 1: you really do have the ability to leverage serving a
Speaker 1: lot of people, if you'll take it as that opportunity. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and you brought out with you. Let's jump into the book.
Speaker 1: So this book will be released Tuesday. In the book,
Speaker 1: you argue that faith can actually be a redemptive in
Speaker 1: unifying force in the public square. As I'm sure you
Speaker 1: know some people will find as argument controversial as our
Speaker 1: culture has become increasingly secular and woke. If you wouldn't
Speaker 1: mind to tell us a bit about why you wrote
Speaker 1: the book why now? Yeah, I think two things. One,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of believers who would say, you know,
Speaker 1: the public square is it's too messy of a place
Speaker 1: for believers. Um, you can't. I can do a lot
Speaker 1: more good other places. But uh, Martin Luther had a quote,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna butcher, this isn't exactly right, but he said,
Speaker 1: send your very best of public service because the ambiguities
Speaker 1: of of life there take a real wisdom. He said, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm preaching the Holy Spirit does all the work. Uh.
Speaker 1: Now I don't person agree with him on that, but
Speaker 1: but you get the point, like, we we can't abandon
Speaker 1: the public square to people who are just going to
Speaker 1: be in it for their own purposes instead of to
Speaker 1: serve the common good. Um. So that's one reason. The
Speaker 1: second is this, Hey, it doesn't it's no secret that
Speaker 1: this country is incredibly divided, right, I mean, it's um our.
Speaker 1: Our presidential elections are close. The Senate, the U. S.
Speaker 1: Senates divided fifty fifty. The House is six seats difference
Speaker 1: out of four thirty five. But we're not just divided.
Speaker 1: We're mad and we were mad at people on the
Speaker 1: other side and we think not only are they wrong,
Speaker 1: but they have bad motives. And everybody's looking around and going,
Speaker 1: i'd like this environment. I don't like this atmosphere. Somebody
Speaker 1: needs to change it, um. And the reality is the
Speaker 1: media is not going to change it. Their their their
Speaker 1: job is to stoke outrage. And the political parties aren't
Speaker 1: going to change it. Their job is to elect their candidates. Well,
Speaker 1: my proposal here is what if people of faith could say,
Speaker 1: we want to be salt so that this meat doesn't
Speaker 1: go bad. We want to be light for this darkness.
Speaker 1: We want to bring as people who understand the need
Speaker 1: for justice and mercy. We we know you need both.
Speaker 1: We want to bring that to the public square, um,
Speaker 1: and do what God has asked us to do, to
Speaker 1: act justly, love, mercy and wal humbley. Wow, now that
Speaker 1: I think that's especially quote in the scriptures as really powerful. Now,
Speaker 1: a lot of folks seemingly don't follow that book blueprint
Speaker 1: in the same way that you just mentioned. And as
Speaker 1: a person of faith, as a person who have operated
Speaker 1: in public life as a person person of faith, and
Speaker 1: one can do a lot of politicians talk about faith
Speaker 1: and Christianity and religion, but then there's folks that talk
Speaker 1: about it and there's people who do live it. And
Speaker 1: I don't know you personally, but if I can look
Speaker 1: at your life just from a glimpse digitally, it looks
Speaker 1: like you've done uh pretty well, not just financially and professionally,
Speaker 1: but you you try to live out of life that Um,
Speaker 1: I think one one day God would appreciate or like
Speaker 1: or love or whatever however you want to phrase that. So,
Speaker 1: as as a man of faith, can you talk about
Speaker 1: what religion, what role religion has played in your life? Yeah, listen,
Speaker 1: I would have never run for office if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for my faith. I would have. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot easier things to do, quite frankly, um, but I
Speaker 1: honestly felt like this is what I was called to do. Now. Uh.
Speaker 1: My wife used to laugh during the elections, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're called to run. The election will determine if you're
Speaker 1: called to serve UH and UH in office. But I
Speaker 1: think what I think, what you're hitting on is a
Speaker 1: really key thing. Unfortunately, too many people in the political
Speaker 1: process use God rather than seeking to be used by God,
Speaker 1: and that's a there's a big difference there, and that's
Speaker 1: a big temptation. But you know, Scripture doesn't take lightly
Speaker 1: when we use our faith for our own ends. I mean,
Speaker 1: remember the story of Antonia, Sin Safire and acts, and
Speaker 1: you know everybody has given away everything, they have, their possessions,
Speaker 1: and they act like they do, but they really haven't.
Speaker 1: And you know, God doesn't treat that lightly. So they
Speaker 1: were acting like something they weren't. And for us as
Speaker 1: believers to try to act like something that we're not
Speaker 1: in the public square in order to gain some advantage,
Speaker 1: that's using God and we shouldn't take that. We shouldn't
Speaker 1: take that lightly. We're talking to Bill has Them, the
Speaker 1: former two term governor of the Great State of Tennessee.
Speaker 1: We've gotten much more with him on his new book,
Speaker 1: Faith and Politics. After a quick break. Critics, especially now
Speaker 1: you're talking about on a national age, critics probably say
Speaker 1: faith and religion are divisive, and we'll bring breed more
Speaker 1: hate and polarization in our in our society. I'm really
Speaker 1: intrigued by how you responded to that in office, because
Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of conversation started in their
Speaker 1: early two thousands around the Obama here, or at least
Speaker 1: from what I can recall, I'm a little younger maybe
Speaker 1: than you, but I remember a lot of that starting
Speaker 1: around that time. Yeah, there's no question that heated up
Speaker 1: some of them. But I would argue, it's it's all.
Speaker 1: Our politics have always been pretty heated in this country
Speaker 1: from the very beginning. But here's what I'd say, And
Speaker 1: you say, well, why could you know how people A
Speaker 1: lot of people would say, I don't buy the premise.
Speaker 1: I don't buy the premise that people of faith can
Speaker 1: make a difference in the public square. Hey, here's what
Speaker 1: it says this. You know, James talks about what wisdom
Speaker 1: from above looks, what looks like, and he says, what's
Speaker 1: some that's from above, and that's what we should be
Speaker 1: looking for. And in office or as pastors, or in
Speaker 1: business or anything with that's from above is first pure,
Speaker 1: then peaceable, then gentle, open to reason, full of mercy
Speaker 1: and good fruits, Impartial, and sincere. And if I said,
Speaker 1: if I went out and you and I walked down
Speaker 1: the street, we interviewed passers by in a totally secular
Speaker 1: context and said, tell me what people of faith act
Speaker 1: like in the public square. Not many would say open
Speaker 1: to reason, sincere, gentle, pure, open to you know, full
Speaker 1: of mercy. We wouldn't get described that way. We'd get
Speaker 1: described as they really want to make their point, they
Speaker 1: really want to win the argument. And my I guess
Speaker 1: my argument in the book is this, as believers, we
Speaker 1: believe in truth. So this isn't about being mushy, and
Speaker 1: isn't about just being kind of in the moderate middle,
Speaker 1: no matter where that leaves you. This is about saying,
Speaker 1: we want to get to the best answer. And if
Speaker 1: we think of our role is to serve the common good,
Speaker 1: then our our role is to get to the best
Speaker 1: are not just our answer the best answer? And when
Speaker 1: it comes to issues that are very divisive that the
Speaker 1: left continues to push today. You talk about abortion is
Speaker 1: one that comes up fairly often, and I know you're
Speaker 1: pro life, Um, thank you for that, and so am I. Uh,
Speaker 1: when when it comes to those kind of issues, the
Speaker 1: best answer is what the Bible says, choose life, is
Speaker 1: it not? It is? So that that that's that's a
Speaker 1: great example. So thanks for bringing that up. So what
Speaker 1: I'd say is, I'm not asking you to change this
Speaker 1: idea that you know life begins at conception, and that
Speaker 1: you know we're we're we're all created in the image
Speaker 1: of God, and so taking that life and you know
Speaker 1: in the womb is is is destroying and is it
Speaker 1: is killing somebody that's truly created in the image of God.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to change that. I'm just saying this,
Speaker 1: what if you approached the conversation in a different way.
Speaker 1: Here's what my point is, Christians, just like everyone else,
Speaker 1: we're just as likely to send the hateful email. We're
Speaker 1: just as likely in the argument to try to come
Speaker 1: up with the clever put down that will say, ha,
Speaker 1: see I won the argument. But if our goal is
Speaker 1: to get to truth and not just to win the argument,
Speaker 1: I'd ask you this, has anybody ever changed your mind
Speaker 1: when they've come with a really clever put down of
Speaker 1: your position? No? Not quite No, No, so you don't.
Speaker 1: It actually just makes you dig in. So I'm saying
Speaker 1: do we really trust God? And saying rather than coming
Speaker 1: to this public discussion with hatred for the other side
Speaker 1: and with a desire to win the argument. What if
Speaker 1: we came as people who are who are humble in
Speaker 1: general and yet committed to the truth. And I think
Speaker 1: we here's my point, as Christians. We we serve a
Speaker 1: God who exhibited what love and truth looks like at
Speaker 1: the same time. Right, That's what a cross is about.
Speaker 1: It's about uh, justice, that we needed someone to die
Speaker 1: for us and mercy a God who is willing to
Speaker 1: do that for us. And so of all people, we
Speaker 1: should be people who bring to the public discussion this
Speaker 1: idea of bringing justice and mercy at the same time,
Speaker 1: justice and mercy, and and that kind of brings me
Speaker 1: to something I was talking about on the Era earlier today.
Speaker 1: We're talking about the defund the police movement, specifically in
Speaker 1: in New York City. UM as an example, shootings went
Speaker 1: up ninetiesent homicides went up, that was in this year,
Speaker 1: and violent assaults, felony assaults. I should say, uh, and
Speaker 1: you have that's one side of it. Defund the police.
Speaker 1: We needed to strip all their resources away. They shouldn't
Speaker 1: be involved in any much of anything, no public safety.
Speaker 1: Then you have another side, um, the Black Lives Matter
Speaker 1: side who who advocates for similar things, but they're not
Speaker 1: necessarily to defund the police movement, but they've been a
Speaker 1: part of that conversation. So when you're bringing the sides
Speaker 1: to the table that support the police holistically, they may
Speaker 1: want to see some incremental changes, but maybe not overarching
Speaker 1: reform of the police. How do you bring all these
Speaker 1: three sides to the table to have the conversation, You
Speaker 1: ask really good practical questions, by the way, because that's
Speaker 1: what comes down to. So I'm I would definitely never
Speaker 1: be in favor of defunding the police because you know,
Speaker 1: is when people march through the streets saying no justice,
Speaker 1: no piece, they're saying, we want justice, we want we
Speaker 1: want the bad guys to get caught. And that's what
Speaker 1: we all want, right, we all want if somebody's doing
Speaker 1: something wrong, we want them to get you know, to
Speaker 1: to to to stop that. Um and so but I
Speaker 1: would say, what there's probably is some real value for
Speaker 1: us and listening to the argument of why does that feel?
Speaker 1: Why do you have such a different view about law
Speaker 1: enforcement than I do? Uh to that person and understanding
Speaker 1: there there's some pain in there, maybe from some unjust treatment, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's uh, let's listen, I got you know,
Speaker 1: I have I have too many friends who are who
Speaker 1: are black man, who say, hey, I still get worried
Speaker 1: every time I get pulled over in the car in
Speaker 1: a way that I don't okay. So I'd argue that
Speaker 1: helps me when I have friends that I respect and
Speaker 1: love and they're they're you know, they're out doing doing
Speaker 1: what they're supposed to be doing and they get pulled
Speaker 1: over and they're terrified, And I think that would never
Speaker 1: strike me to be terrified. I'd be, you know, like, hey,
Speaker 1: why are you pulling me over? Um? So it helps
Speaker 1: me understand that I do I agree with their solution
Speaker 1: or their answer of defund the police. No, No, I don't.
Speaker 1: I think it's a really bad idea. And I think
Speaker 1: people would once they had that, they'd be saying, oops,
Speaker 1: we picked the wrong door. So if I'm hearing you correctly,
Speaker 1: are you saying first, try to understand, Try to understand
Speaker 1: where the other side is coming from, so you can
Speaker 1: have the conversation versus. What we see a lot in
Speaker 1: politics is more so arguing across each other. No one's listening.
Speaker 1: No one's really trying to have. The conversation is all
Speaker 1: about sound bites and talking points and and getting the
Speaker 1: slam dunk on Twitter where you get a million retweets bingo.
Speaker 1: I'm Bill Haslaman I proved that message, you know. I
Speaker 1: mean because because listen to getting that slam drunk on
Speaker 1: Twitter feels good. But it doesn't change anybody's mind, right,
Speaker 1: It doesn't change one person's mind. Now, a lot of
Speaker 1: people on your side will retweet it, and you're going, wow, cool,
Speaker 1: Look you know, look how many retweets I got. But
Speaker 1: you didn't change one person on the other side's mind. Uh,
Speaker 1: nor would I say. You know, remember this, we're the
Speaker 1: people are supposed to love our enemies. Okay, that's really hard,
Speaker 1: particularly in today's world. You know, you get you look
Speaker 1: at what's happening in social media interchanges, go wow, it's
Speaker 1: really hard to love that person right now. But that's
Speaker 1: what we're called to do, and that's that's really hard.
Speaker 1: People ask it's hard to be a Christian politician. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really really hard to love your enemies when they're
Speaker 1: taking shots at you twenty four hours a day. Um.
Speaker 1: But but again, that's still what we're called to do.
Speaker 1: And I think here's the other point i'd make is this.
Speaker 1: People come to me all the time and say, Bill,
Speaker 1: you don't understand what you're talking about. You don't understand
Speaker 1: how high the stakes are. We're literally battling for the
Speaker 1: soul of America here and you're wanting us to bring
Speaker 1: a pillow to a knife fight. Okay, uh, And there's
Speaker 1: too much at stake to act the way that you
Speaker 1: talk about it said, Well, we don't say, in in
Speaker 1: other things that we should suspend God's rules for that,
Speaker 1: like you need to be ethical in your business unless
Speaker 1: you're about to go bankrupt, and then you can do
Speaker 1: whatever you want. You know, we don't say you should
Speaker 1: be faithful to your wife unless somebody really really attractive comes,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't. We don't do that. We say
Speaker 1: God's truth is God truth. In politics, we say we
Speaker 1: don't really want to act the way God asked us too,
Speaker 1: because the stakes are so high. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: And there's a transition point. I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about that because you were saying keep the consistency and
Speaker 1: as believers, we have to model a particular behavior. Now,
Speaker 1: how do you respond to some of the things that
Speaker 1: President Trump might have said, whether it be on television
Speaker 1: or interviews, and you know, we can be honest, and
Speaker 1: I'm I have no qualms about it. I think President
Speaker 1: Trump has done a lot of good from a policy perspective,
Speaker 1: but there were areas in which he was divisive. And
Speaker 1: I also understand that folks on our left are very divisive.
Speaker 1: I get that. What do you say in regard to
Speaker 1: that when the President Trump some of the things that
Speaker 1: Eve has said or done, that we're divisive? You know,
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I mean that I agree. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think part of President Trump style was to try
Speaker 1: to divide the country, find some really how button issues
Speaker 1: and try to get a few more on my side
Speaker 1: than the other side. Uh. And folks on the left
Speaker 1: are guilty of that too, you know, that's their game.
Speaker 1: Let's find some arguments that get our folks fired up.
Speaker 1: Uh And and that will rally people to the polls
Speaker 1: or to give more money or whatever it is that
Speaker 1: that I mean, he said, that's a little bit the
Speaker 1: game that both sides are playing. But my question would be,
Speaker 1: how's that working? You know, how where's that left us?
Speaker 1: And aren't we supposed to be different. I mean, if
Speaker 1: you read, if you read the Servant on the amount,
Speaker 1: the clear messages, be different, be different than the rest
Speaker 1: of the world. And the reason I wrote this book
Speaker 1: is this Christians aren't acting any different than anyone else
Speaker 1: when it comes to this hateful political environment that we're in,
Speaker 1: and we're supposed to be different. So we need we
Speaker 1: need to do something different, right. And I would say
Speaker 1: with with that is that starts by we needed we
Speaker 1: need to act differently. You know when I mean hit
Speaker 1: the example like when the woman is caught in adultery
Speaker 1: and dragged before Jesus and the crowd. And the crowd
Speaker 1: Jesus doesn't start with the woman. He starts with the
Speaker 1: religious types, right. He starts with folks like you and me.
Speaker 1: He says, okay, you know, everybody that hadn't sinned, go
Speaker 1: ahead and throw the first stones. And interestingly, it says,
Speaker 1: and beginning with the older ones, they dropped their stones
Speaker 1: and walked away. I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: you we realize older we get is like we realized, like,
Speaker 1: I'm a sinful, broken person here. That's part of the gospel, right,
Speaker 1: That's part of what Romans three says all of sin
Speaker 1: and falls short of the glory of God. And I
Speaker 1: don't Jesus. When Jesus comes and looks at a situation
Speaker 1: it's a problem. He doesn't say, Wow, look the world
Speaker 1: has gone bad. Isn't the world horrible? He says, the
Speaker 1: meat's gone bad. That's what the salt was for. And
Speaker 1: unfortunately the next line is a scary one. And if
Speaker 1: the salt is lost at saltiness, it's good for no
Speaker 1: thing except to be thrown out and trampled under feet
Speaker 1: under foot. I think that's my question is, let's, as
Speaker 1: believers we look at a situation like this and we say, man,
Speaker 1: I can't believe how bad the worlds. Let's start with us,
Speaker 1: because that's where Jesus usually starts. You know what's interesting
Speaker 1: about you using? Uh that that time in scripture and
Speaker 1: I was having lunch with the pastor just about a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and he was using an example
Speaker 1: he without saying, let him cast the first stone, which
Speaker 1: is often we see in cancel culture. They didn't hear
Speaker 1: the part of he without saying, they just got stones.
Speaker 1: So what's your take on cancel culture? It should there
Speaker 1: be a redemptive uh phase and all of that or
Speaker 1: what you do, Hunt. I mean, I love your word
Speaker 1: redemptive there, because there's nothing redemptive about the battle back
Speaker 1: and forth and what happens in cancel culture. Now, you
Speaker 1: know the other interestingt thing like you said, the point is,
Speaker 1: you know he does come back and tell the woman
Speaker 1: go and send no more. Absolutely you know that that
Speaker 1: part happens to right, It's not just like okay, starting
Speaker 1: with you religious types, you know, you throw the first
Speaker 1: end stone, but he does actually personally address her at
Speaker 1: the end and say, hey, this isn't working. You need
Speaker 1: to change and repent to Uh. I'm you know the
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't see anything biblical about cancel culture.
Speaker 1: And so we have to be certain again starting with ourselves,
Speaker 1: that we're not doing that to other folks and say, oh,
Speaker 1: that crazy liberal I'm you know, they don't. They're they're
Speaker 1: im who who would who would listen to them? Um?
Speaker 1: You know, unfortunately for us are fortunately we're we're we're
Speaker 1: with this idea that God says I've created man and
Speaker 1: woman in my image, and so then we have to
Speaker 1: treat people differently because of that. That person who is
Speaker 1: the easiest for us to hate that person all of
Speaker 1: us right now, if I said, quick, ten seconds, think
Speaker 1: of who that person is who it's really hard for
Speaker 1: you level we can all come to that person or
Speaker 1: maybe two or three really quick. And God said you
Speaker 1: have to remember, Bill, that person is created in My
Speaker 1: image and that changes everything absolutely. Wow. Let me ask
Speaker 1: you about this because and and it's interesting because I've
Speaker 1: often talked about and I know we kind of touched
Speaker 1: on it a little bit. I often talked talked about
Speaker 1: in my book Take It for Granted, how conservatism can
Speaker 1: went back to the American cyllaberalism failed. How it seems
Speaker 1: as though folks on the left are continuously trying to
Speaker 1: take God out of whether it be our government documents
Speaker 1: or their political platforms. And you saw that happened in
Speaker 1: the d n C. In You might have seen that
Speaker 1: earlier this month, Joe Biden became the first American president
Speaker 1: not to use the word God in the National Day
Speaker 1: of Prayer proclamation. What was your reaction to that? You know,
Speaker 1: Here's here's my thought, is um, in in this country, um,
Speaker 1: folks who want to take faith out of the public
Speaker 1: square are missing the incredible history and role that people
Speaker 1: of faith have played in the polk square because of
Speaker 1: their faith. The people who have build hospitals and started
Speaker 1: schools and all because of a trust and a faith
Speaker 1: in Christ. Okay, and we have founders people like John
Speaker 1: Adams that said, you know, our constitution is holy. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna mess up the quote here, but predicated on the
Speaker 1: idea of a belief in God, and it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: totally totally unable to to to govern the country without that.
Speaker 1: So this idea that somehow we're supposed to uh that
Speaker 1: our government is not supposed to uh include people of
Speaker 1: faith acting on that faith. I don't know where they
Speaker 1: got that idea. That's that's always been part of who
Speaker 1: we are now. I think the genius of the of
Speaker 1: our found there's also was we're not going to have
Speaker 1: a government established religion because if when every time we
Speaker 1: do that, it's the church that loses. Think about where
Speaker 1: the church is strong around the world and where it's not.
Speaker 1: Think about Europe, where the church is not very strong.
Speaker 1: There used to be a state religion there, and when
Speaker 1: the government becomes the church, the church is the one
Speaker 1: that loses, not the government. But do we really want
Speaker 1: to have a nation that is uh. We love a
Speaker 1: nation that acts more Christian, But I don't think we
Speaker 1: want an official state religion because then it will become
Speaker 1: an official state religion instead of who you are and
Speaker 1: what you are, and then it will change because of
Speaker 1: the political party. A person is running it. That's it.
Speaker 1: That's it. Now, it's hard to deny that culture is
Speaker 1: becoming increasingly secular, especially as a left control so many
Speaker 1: of our institutions, our universities, the media, Hollywood. Do you
Speaker 1: find this trend troubling and if so, what can be
Speaker 1: done about it? Well? I do, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: our culture has changed a couple of thoughts. First, for us,
Speaker 1: for us as believers, the wrong thing to do is
Speaker 1: to react out of fear, a speed of fear. But
Speaker 1: thank you, Like I said, thanks, I appreciate, And you know,
Speaker 1: fear not is all through scripture and we're not We're
Speaker 1: not supposed to act like, oh, you know, we used
Speaker 1: to be the home team and now we're the visiting team,
Speaker 1: and the visiting team. I'm I'm I'm afraid to play
Speaker 1: that role. It's just not who we're supposed to be.
Speaker 1: Should we be concerned that as the culture starts to
Speaker 1: change and our children, you know, grow up in a
Speaker 1: different world. Should we be very mindful that we should? Um?
Speaker 1: And we need to realize we need to teach our
Speaker 1: children differently than we might have thirty years ago or
Speaker 1: fifty years ago in terms of what's okay and what's
Speaker 1: what's not okay. Um. But again, I think the second
Speaker 1: thing is we need to say, you know, think about
Speaker 1: the dollars and the time that have spent on outreach
Speaker 1: for the Christian faith recently, and the involvement that Christians
Speaker 1: have had in politics, and yet the world keeps kind
Speaker 1: of shifting away from us. And I think my point
Speaker 1: would be, what we've tried, the way we've tried to
Speaker 1: do Christian politics has not worked because we haven't done
Speaker 1: it in a spirit of acting, acting justly, loving mercy,
Speaker 1: and walking humbly. Okay, I get I get that point. Now.
Speaker 1: The tough part about it is, I think when you
Speaker 1: have institutions that are controlled, one in which our children
Speaker 1: listened to, and these messages are amplified by way of media,
Speaker 1: TV shows, Instagram, you have people, especially in in my age.
Speaker 1: I'm thirty four, I'll be thirty five in December, but
Speaker 1: it's it's for dating as an example, has become increasingly
Speaker 1: tough for a lot of folks because you've got all
Speaker 1: this imagery plan what you should look like, what you
Speaker 1: should be, what kind of music you should listen to,
Speaker 1: and it's allowed for people to have real strong identity crisis,
Speaker 1: you know, Like it's just it's very hard for folks
Speaker 1: to really maintain their sense of who they are, what
Speaker 1: they grew up having when you have this amplification all
Speaker 1: the time. You open up your iPhone and I add
Speaker 1: might pop up that says something that you know, us
Speaker 1: as Christians may not even want on their right and
Speaker 1: the government can play a role in that part, you know, obviously.
Speaker 1: But it's just an interesting environment. So I think you're
Speaker 1: I think your your observations are really good. One I
Speaker 1: want to say this, like I said, as you look
Speaker 1: at that world changing, Like said, I've got my kids
Speaker 1: are about your age, I've got grandkids, and I think about, man,
Speaker 1: look at the world they're going to grow up in with,
Speaker 1: you know, everything from you know, the wildest worst kind
Speaker 1: of pornography available in two seconds on their phone to
Speaker 1: everything else that would happen. So what I'd take in
Speaker 1: is should we be fearful about the cultural changes. No,
Speaker 1: should we be very mindful of them for the very
Speaker 1: reason you said? You bet? And would I tell you,
Speaker 1: if you're getting ready to raise children, that your children
Speaker 1: are going to grow up in a very different environment
Speaker 1: than you did And then my kids did, Yes, And
Speaker 1: so should you take a different approach to parenting because
Speaker 1: of that? Yes? You should. Now since you brought up
Speaker 1: your your children, I want to mention something that is
Speaker 1: in your book, and you may like. Man, my book
Speaker 1: isn't out just yet, but it was in the just
Speaker 1: a sample copy. I should. I wish I had a
Speaker 1: copy of it to read from. I only saw some
Speaker 1: of it, but um, you said, and too will Hannah, Anna, David,
Speaker 1: Leah and Matt. As hard as it is to be
Speaker 1: and politics, it's even harder to be in a politicians family.
Speaker 1: Thanks for loving me so well and for standing up
Speaker 1: for me even when I didn't always deserve it. I
Speaker 1: love all of you. So what were the times that
Speaker 1: you can tell us what you felt like you didn't
Speaker 1: deserve them to stand up and love you in that way? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give you a great except, like I said,
Speaker 1: running for office is really hard. And you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things we're supposed to be as believers, as
Speaker 1: you know, being anxious for nothing, but in everything by
Speaker 1: prayer and supplication, thanks to the Lord. So I can
Speaker 1: tell you I spent a year and a half of
Speaker 1: campaign running for governor anxious, you know, uh, thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: what happens if I lose? You know, what happens if
Speaker 1: my opponents say something bad about me? All the things
Speaker 1: that you feel personally vulnerable in. Uh, you know, there's
Speaker 1: it's just as a politician you feel all that. As
Speaker 1: you'r as their family, you feel it even stronger. And
Speaker 1: so you know, there's any number of times when I
Speaker 1: would say, um, you know, how did I do on
Speaker 1: being anxious for nothing? Not so good? How did I
Speaker 1: do on you know? It says you know, but with humility,
Speaker 1: each of you consider others better than yourselves. How did
Speaker 1: I do on that? Not? Always so good? I mean,
Speaker 1: I can go through lots of things that, um, And
Speaker 1: I remember one time one of my I was listening.
Speaker 1: When you're in politics, it's a little like being a pastor.
Speaker 1: Everybody wants your time, okay, and so you learn to
Speaker 1: have these quick conversations. You know. If you don't, you'll
Speaker 1: you'll never get home at night. Yeah, you try to
Speaker 1: get out of a one with me. I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: you the medium story, not the whole Well, but like
Speaker 1: I said, I'm or I'm you know, hey, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: walking into church and in between, you know, the the
Speaker 1: our security agents, car and my few fifty people try
Speaker 1: something like if I have all those conversations, I'm never
Speaker 1: getting worship. And the same thing with if I'm going
Speaker 1: to a restaurant or whatever. And so you kind of
Speaker 1: learned to have these really quick conversations with people like hey, thanks,
Speaker 1: blahah blah and keep moving. And one time we're at
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving so with or with my extended family, and my
Speaker 1: son kind of grabbed me and goes. You realize you're
Speaker 1: having two minute conversations with every about it, right, And
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I didn't, but but you're a hundred
Speaker 1: percent right. I had had that, had just become who
Speaker 1: I was, and I wouldn't listen. I was kind of
Speaker 1: given the two or three minutes and move on to
Speaker 1: the next person deal. And there's a good example of
Speaker 1: learning the wrong lessons. Before we move on, let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break back on the self. Basically, what you
Speaker 1: were saying is, Hey, there was some shortcomings as a believer,
Speaker 1: but you get better with Tom and you just continue
Speaker 1: to continue to push your best footfall, and hopefully that's
Speaker 1: what redemption looks like, right as we all start to
Speaker 1: look a little bit more like the god that we
Speaker 1: were creating the image of a Now, let me ask
Speaker 1: you this question. Do you have any regrets from your
Speaker 1: time in public office? Oh? Man, I have a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's such a rare opportunity to
Speaker 1: get to do it that you want to make certain
Speaker 1: you take maxim advantage of. And there's lots of things that,
Speaker 1: oh boy, if I had taken a different approach, which
Speaker 1: we might have gotten that bill passed that lost in
Speaker 1: the legislature, or if I had hired this person, we
Speaker 1: might have been able to provide better services. You make
Speaker 1: so many decisions in office, and some of them are good,
Speaker 1: but not all of them. But so do I have
Speaker 1: some regrets for things I do differently? Yes? Do I
Speaker 1: have any regret about doing it? No? I still consider
Speaker 1: it an incredible blessing to have had that calling for
Speaker 1: for that period of my life. And and that's good
Speaker 1: that you mentioned that. I appreciate you you telling me that.
Speaker 1: And as a person who has been a politician, I
Speaker 1: elected by the people and of course need to represent
Speaker 1: their constituents as you you did, and look at their
Speaker 1: best interests. What happens if a politician's conscious conflicts with
Speaker 1: what this constituents want? Do you ever? Did you ever
Speaker 1: have that experience as mayor a governor? Several times, and
Speaker 1: sometimes not just your sometimes you're concentime, just your your
Speaker 1: thoughtful opinion, because as governor you might know more of
Speaker 1: the situation than everyone us, uh, and you might know
Speaker 1: the rest of the story. So there were times when
Speaker 1: you know, the overwhelming, you know, volume of emails and
Speaker 1: phone calls was do this or don't do that? That
Speaker 1: We did not do what those folks were saying. So
Speaker 1: sometimes it was for matters of conscience what I what
Speaker 1: I felt to be the right thing. And sometimes it
Speaker 1: was just at the end of the day, my my
Speaker 1: judgment on that issue. And I wouldn't say it was
Speaker 1: necessarily a moral right or wrong, just I hear you understand,
Speaker 1: But given where I am and what I've learned about
Speaker 1: the situation, this is the one the path that I
Speaker 1: think is right, and so ultimately the decision is with you,
Speaker 1: and you have to weigh where you what you feel
Speaker 1: is the best decision for your constituents, and and how
Speaker 1: you feel as a as a moral reasoning. Is that right?
Speaker 1: I think you did a nice job of summarizing. Okay,
Speaker 1: now correct me if I'm wrong, But I believe you
Speaker 1: did not vote for Trump in No, I'd said I
Speaker 1: was not going to uh in in sixteen when some
Speaker 1: of the issues came up. Actually, what I said was
Speaker 1: this is when the whole scandal around Billy Bush and
Speaker 1: oh yes, yes, yes, I remember that Saturday, trust me,
Speaker 1: I was on the phone with the R and C. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: So at the time, I just said, hey, I think
Speaker 1: it'd be better for the Republican Party at this time,
Speaker 1: uh if uh, you know, if uh Trump stepped aside
Speaker 1: and let Mike Pins be the candidate. And I just
Speaker 1: at the time I thought that that would be the
Speaker 1: right thing for the country. Okay, So in you said
Speaker 1: that you would vote for him if he was the nominee.
Speaker 1: So what was the change there? Well, you know, listen,
Speaker 1: you know anytime you talk about President Trump that you
Speaker 1: could go into a long conversation right as you did
Speaker 1: earlier about uh you know, streaks and weaknesses. Um and
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know if that's the that that's
Speaker 1: something I want to delve into deep. Right, Like I
Speaker 1: said in two thousands sixteen, I just felt really strongly,
Speaker 1: given the circumstances, that was not the right step forward
Speaker 1: for the Republican Party or for the country. Okay, but
Speaker 1: you had a change of heart and you supported him. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure certain he would count me as among
Speaker 1: his most fervidces. I'm sure he has a good long
Speaker 1: memory too. Yeah, I know he, I know he does. Well.
Speaker 1: For my final question, I want to ask you about
Speaker 1: the future of the Republican Party. Do you think the
Speaker 1: party is a in a good place today and moving forward?
Speaker 1: What should a GOP be doing and put itself in
Speaker 1: a better per I think we're I think it's a
Speaker 1: really important decision point that there's certain things that I
Speaker 1: think if the party has always been strong about that
Speaker 1: I want us to stay strong about about. I believe in,
Speaker 1: you know, I believe the market based economy we're in
Speaker 1: is a lot better than a socialist based economy. I
Speaker 1: believe in Republican Party's position on on matters around um
Speaker 1: life and choice of crow life and first row choice.
Speaker 1: I believe, Um, the historic dance we put on America
Speaker 1: playing a leading role in the world are really important. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think we've historically done a good job. What
Speaker 1: I think is what I think President Trump realized was
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of America that feels left behind.
Speaker 1: And they look at the Democrat Party and say, they're
Speaker 1: talking about transgender bathroom uses and that's not where I am.
Speaker 1: And they look at the Republican Party and say, it
Speaker 1: feels like a lot of country club types. That's not me.
Speaker 1: And they felt, you know, hey, this world changing fast.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm feeling like I'm being left behind here. Nobody's
Speaker 1: been concerned about me, and I don't think we can
Speaker 1: be that party and still be effective. So Republicans need
Speaker 1: to do a better job at outreach and bringing more
Speaker 1: people into the tent, especially African Americans. I think Trump
Speaker 1: was really gifted when it comes to that. Obviously, he
Speaker 1: had some missteps and some things he perhaps shouldn't have said. However,
Speaker 1: there was no candidate or president that I've seen that
Speaker 1: talked about black folks and what he was going to
Speaker 1: do for them so much, and it obviously paid dividends
Speaker 1: when it came to election night nine as great as
Speaker 1: some people might have predicted, but certainly more than Democrats
Speaker 1: and most media expected. Yeah, I think that's fair and
Speaker 1: that was what surprised a lot of people in the
Speaker 1: election result. Is that not just with Blacks, but with Thepanics,
Speaker 1: the vote was. It was a lot different than what
Speaker 1: people if. If you ask why the election was closer
Speaker 1: than people are expecting, I think that's it. Well, Governor,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining Out Loud with Giano Caldwell. Governor
Speaker 1: Bill Haslam and I certainly appreciate it your your time today,
Speaker 1: and I think one day we're gonna work together in
Speaker 1: some capacity. We'll do something. But I hope that we
Speaker 1: can stay in touch. Sincerely, now, I've loved the conversation.
Speaker 1: Thanks for letting me be on the show. I want
Speaker 1: to thank Governor Bill has Them again for a great interview.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review
Speaker 1: and rate us with five stars on Apple Podcast. If
Speaker 1: you have any questions for me, please email me at
Speaker 1: Out Loud the Ginguish Come and I'll try to answer
Speaker 1: them in our future episodes. And please sign up for
Speaker 1: my monthly newsletter at gingligh Street sixty dot com, slash
Speaker 1: out Loud. You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
Speaker 1: and parlor at Giano Caldwell. And if you're interested in
Speaker 1: learning more about my story, please pick up a copy
Speaker 1: of my best selling book title Taken for Granted, How
Speaker 1: Conservatism Can Win back to the Americans they Liberalism failed.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our producer John Cassio, researcher Aaron Klinman,
Speaker 1: and executive producers Debbie Miners and speaker New Gingwich, all
Speaker 1: part of the Ginglish Street sixty network