1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Up next, How woud what you called part of the 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: gang which switch? Earlier this month, Joe Biden became the 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: first American president not to use the word God in 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: its National Day of Prayer proclamation. With the Democratic Party 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: becoming more radical and the left overtaking the culture, are 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: we witnessing the end of faith in public life? I 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: certainly hope not or will faith make a comeback? Today? 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: I try to find the answers. This is Outlued with 9 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: Gianno called one, but today on Outlive with Gianna Callwell, 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have a guest who I have 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: a profound respect for. And the reason for their profound 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: respect is because you rarely see an elected official who 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: brings God into the workplace. And it's an honor to 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: welcome on Bill Haslam, who is the former governor of Tennessee. 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining the program. Governor, Hey, thanks for 16 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Absolutely, 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: We're blessed to have you. Now, let me ask you 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: this because before we jump into your book, which is 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 1: title of Faithful Presence, The Promise and Peril of Faith 20 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: in the Public Square, why don't you tell me about 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: your background but professionally because you have a really interesting background. 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: You've been on the board of Sacks Fifth Avenue and 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: you've done tremendously well. So for God to do so 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: well as you've done and jump into politics is pretty 25 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Yeah, So i'll give you the short form. 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: Actually we don't need the short form just telling all right, 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: I'll give you the medium form that you don't want 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: to be here all day. So, actually, wasn't in college 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: thought I would be a pastor. And my plan was 30 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: to to teach high school for a couple of years 31 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: and then be a pastor. And uh, my father's you know, 32 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: if you're gonna be a pastor, you might be good 33 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: to be around business for a couple of years and 34 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: then you'd have exposure to that and then people you'd 35 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: at least understand that world if if you're in a church. 36 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: And I went to work in business for a couple 37 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: of years and ended up deciding I wasn't called to 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: be a pastor and ended up liking business um and 39 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: stayed doing in the business world for twenty years, first 40 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: with our family business that has a chain of truck 41 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: stops across the country, and then went to work for Sachs. 42 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: This is in the the new days of the internet. 43 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: Literally it was internet retailing was brand new, this is 44 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: the late nineties, and kind of helped them take their 45 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: business online, which was interesting because I'm not a technical 46 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: guy and I know nothing about fashion. But uh, the 47 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: guy that was running the company just said, hey, we 48 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: I'd like somebody just with some you know, the ability 49 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: to build a team here that can make this happen. 50 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: So I did that, and then, uh, right after I 51 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: finished set up, some folks came to me and said, hey, 52 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: you should think about running for mayor of knoxhll im 53 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: from Knoxville, Tennessee. And I laughed and said, you got 54 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: the wrong guy. I literally said, I literally have no interest. 55 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: But then, well, you should think and pray about it. 56 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to say no, I'm not gonna 57 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: think and pray about it. Uh, And so I did. 58 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,839 Speaker 1: And I been meeting every Friday morning with a group 59 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: of guys kind of an accountability group for twenty five years, 60 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: and I brought it to them thinking they would laugh, 61 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,839 Speaker 1: and they said, we think you should think and pray 62 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: about that, and we'll pray with you. And same thing 63 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: with my wife and I thought she would go, no, please, 64 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: don't do that. You know. Um, the only thing that 65 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: would be, you know, worse than being married to a pastor, 66 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: be being married to a politician. Uh. But she said, 67 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, I think you should be serious about this, 68 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: and uh and and pursue it. So ran for mayor 69 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: and loved it. It's just you know, calling, they say, 70 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of where your desires meet the world's needs. 71 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: And that's what being mayor was like of mown hometown. 72 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: So ran in two thousand three, barely one really close election, 73 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: ran in two thousand and seven and one again and 74 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: then uh, same process running for governor, thinking about it, 75 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: prayed about talking a lot of people. Ran in two 76 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: thousand and ten and in love. I mean, being governor 77 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: of your own home state is is, in my opinion, 78 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: one of the best job there is. So I ran 79 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, reelecting two thousand fourteen. Have 80 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: been out of office for about two years now. Yeah, 81 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: you do fairly well in the primary too. It seems 82 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: as though there was a lot of respect for you 83 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: running for for these particular offices. Well, I think so, 84 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, political races sometimes you're about timing, right, I mean, 85 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: there's times when the winds blowing one way and happens 86 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: to be your way. At other times, sometimes you have 87 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: a tail wind, sometimes you have a head wind. Uh. 88 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: And so, as I said, my very first mayor's race 89 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: was really close, and then after that we didn't have 90 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: too many close ones, which is a lot. I can 91 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: tell you this election nights when you're ahead by double 92 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: digits are a lot more fun. And when you're quitting 93 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: out the last precinct coming just more of a celebration there. 94 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: And I tell you, being a pastor in some ways 95 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: can can be like an elected official because you meant 96 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: to serve as just a lot of politicians who get 97 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: the serving part. Actually, I tell people that if if 98 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: you and I swapped jobs and you you know, I 99 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: went to be a pastor and you went to be 100 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: in an office, you'd go This feels really familiar because 101 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: it's a lot of relationships and it's also a lot 102 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: of deciding between good things and other good things or 103 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: bad things and worse things. You know, we're trying to 104 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: decide are you're gonna put in the budget, you know, 105 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: more money for mental health issues, or to pay teachers more, 106 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: or to help more disabled children. Well, there's not a 107 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: bad idea there, right, but you can't afford to do 108 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: everything you want. It's like at the church, like we're 109 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: gonna spend more on our middle school program or our 110 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: worship or our outreach, you know, and there's not a 111 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: bad idea there, but right, you can't do everything. So 112 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: I tell my friends who are pastors that you could 113 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: go be a mayor, governor and it would feel a lot, 114 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: a lot more familiar than you might think. Yeah. Absolutely. 115 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: Now what's really really interesting about you, I think is Forbes. 116 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: Forbes has said, I believe it was Forbes said that 117 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: you had a network of about two billion dollars. So 118 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: you go from a businessman who has been extraordinarily successful 119 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: to the public life. You don't need the job. You 120 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: really have a servant's heart at that point, one could imagine, 121 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 1: and you decide you're gonna get out there, you're gonna 122 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: do it, and you're gonna make a difference in people's 123 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: lives and you end up succeeding. Well I hope. So, 124 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, the reason I ran was this, and 125 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: it's it's it's really the reason I wrote wrote the book. 126 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: It's easy in today's world for people just to give 127 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: up on the public square on politics and say, well, 128 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: I hate both of them. I hate both sides. You know, 129 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to hear any more of this. 130 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: But if we really do care about the common good, 131 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: if we really do care to seek the places of 132 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: the uh, the peace of the places where God has 133 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: called us, the leverage that you can bring in a 134 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: government role is huge. I mean, like, we decided we 135 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: want to put in a free community college program for 136 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: everybody in the state. We could do that. I couldn't 137 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: do that in a private citizen. Don't. I don't care 138 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: how much money you have. You know, we decided we 139 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: want to improve access uh for folks. Well you know, uh, 140 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: you know Warren Buffett or Bill Gates or who you know, 141 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: whoever you want to pick, Jeff Bezos. They might have 142 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: all the money they want to do everything world, but 143 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: they can't build their own interstate system. And in government, 144 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: you really do have the ability to leverage serving a 145 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: lot of people, if you'll take it as that opportunity. Absolutely, 146 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: and you brought out with you. Let's jump into the book. 147 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: So this book will be released Tuesday. In the book, 148 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: you argue that faith can actually be a redemptive in 149 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: unifying force in the public square. As I'm sure you 150 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: know some people will find as argument controversial as our 151 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: culture has become increasingly secular and woke. If you wouldn't 152 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: mind to tell us a bit about why you wrote 153 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: the book why now? Yeah, I think two things. One, 154 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of believers who would say, you know, 155 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: the public square is it's too messy of a place 156 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: for believers. Um, you can't. I can do a lot 157 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: more good other places. But uh, Martin Luther had a quote, 158 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna butcher, this isn't exactly right, but he said, 159 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: send your very best of public service because the ambiguities 160 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: of of life there take a real wisdom. He said, Hey, 161 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: I'm preaching the Holy Spirit does all the work. Uh. 162 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: Now I don't person agree with him on that, but 163 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: but you get the point, like, we we can't abandon 164 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: the public square to people who are just going to 165 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: be in it for their own purposes instead of to 166 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: serve the common good. Um. So that's one reason. The 167 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: second is this, Hey, it doesn't it's no secret that 168 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: this country is incredibly divided, right, I mean, it's um our. 169 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: Our presidential elections are close. The Senate, the U. S. 170 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: Senates divided fifty fifty. The House is six seats difference 171 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: out of four thirty five. But we're not just divided. 172 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: We're mad and we were mad at people on the 173 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: other side and we think not only are they wrong, 174 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: but they have bad motives. And everybody's looking around and going, 175 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: i'd like this environment. I don't like this atmosphere. Somebody 176 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: needs to change it, um. And the reality is the 177 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: media is not going to change it. Their their their 178 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: job is to stoke outrage. And the political parties aren't 179 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: going to change it. Their job is to elect their candidates. Well, 180 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: my proposal here is what if people of faith could say, 181 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: we want to be salt so that this meat doesn't 182 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: go bad. We want to be light for this darkness. 183 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: We want to bring as people who understand the need 184 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: for justice and mercy. We we know you need both. 185 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: We want to bring that to the public square, um, 186 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: and do what God has asked us to do, to 187 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: act justly, love, mercy and wal humbley. Wow, now that 188 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: I think that's especially quote in the scriptures as really powerful. Now, 189 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: a lot of folks seemingly don't follow that book blueprint 190 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: in the same way that you just mentioned. And as 191 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: a person of faith, as a person who have operated 192 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: in public life as a person person of faith, and 193 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: one can do a lot of politicians talk about faith 194 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: and Christianity and religion, but then there's folks that talk 195 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: about it and there's people who do live it. And 196 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: I don't know you personally, but if I can look 197 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: at your life just from a glimpse digitally, it looks 198 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,599 Speaker 1: like you've done uh pretty well, not just financially and professionally, 199 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: but you you try to live out of life that Um, 200 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: I think one one day God would appreciate or like 201 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: or love or whatever however you want to phrase that. So, 202 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: as as a man of faith, can you talk about 203 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: what religion, what role religion has played in your life? Yeah, listen, 204 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: I would have never run for office if it wasn't 205 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: for my faith. I would have. You know, there's a 206 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: lot easier things to do, quite frankly, um, but I 207 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: honestly felt like this is what I was called to do. Now. Uh. 208 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: My wife used to laugh during the elections, like, Okay, 209 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: you're called to run. The election will determine if you're 210 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: called to serve UH and UH in office. But I 211 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: think what I think, what you're hitting on is a 212 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: really key thing. Unfortunately, too many people in the political 213 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: process use God rather than seeking to be used by God, 214 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: and that's a there's a big difference there, and that's 215 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: a big temptation. But you know, Scripture doesn't take lightly 216 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: when we use our faith for our own ends. I mean, 217 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: remember the story of Antonia, Sin Safire and acts, and 218 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: you know everybody has given away everything, they have, their possessions, 219 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: and they act like they do, but they really haven't. 220 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: And you know, God doesn't treat that lightly. So they 221 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: were acting like something they weren't. And for us as 222 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: believers to try to act like something that we're not 223 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: in the public square in order to gain some advantage, 224 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: that's using God and we shouldn't take that. We shouldn't 225 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: take that lightly. We're talking to Bill has Them, the 226 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: former two term governor of the Great State of Tennessee. 227 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: We've gotten much more with him on his new book, 228 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: Faith and Politics. After a quick break. Critics, especially now 229 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: you're talking about on a national age, critics probably say 230 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: faith and religion are divisive, and we'll bring breed more 231 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: hate and polarization in our in our society. I'm really 232 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: intrigued by how you responded to that in office, because 233 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of conversation started in their 234 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: early two thousands around the Obama here, or at least 235 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: from what I can recall, I'm a little younger maybe 236 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: than you, but I remember a lot of that starting 237 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: around that time. Yeah, there's no question that heated up 238 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: some of them. But I would argue, it's it's all. 239 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: Our politics have always been pretty heated in this country 240 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: from the very beginning. But here's what I'd say, And 241 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: you say, well, why could you know how people A 242 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: lot of people would say, I don't buy the premise. 243 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: I don't buy the premise that people of faith can 244 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: make a difference in the public square. Hey, here's what 245 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: it says this. You know, James talks about what wisdom 246 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: from above looks, what looks like, and he says, what's 247 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: some that's from above, and that's what we should be 248 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: looking for. And in office or as pastors, or in 249 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: business or anything with that's from above is first pure, 250 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: then peaceable, then gentle, open to reason, full of mercy 251 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: and good fruits, Impartial, and sincere. And if I said, 252 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: if I went out and you and I walked down 253 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: the street, we interviewed passers by in a totally secular 254 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: context and said, tell me what people of faith act 255 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: like in the public square. Not many would say open 256 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: to reason, sincere, gentle, pure, open to you know, full 257 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: of mercy. We wouldn't get described that way. We'd get 258 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: described as they really want to make their point, they 259 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: really want to win the argument. And my I guess 260 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: my argument in the book is this, as believers, we 261 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: believe in truth. So this isn't about being mushy, and 262 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: isn't about just being kind of in the moderate middle, 263 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: no matter where that leaves you. This is about saying, 264 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: we want to get to the best answer. And if 265 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: we think of our role is to serve the common good, 266 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: then our our role is to get to the best 267 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: are not just our answer the best answer? And when 268 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: it comes to issues that are very divisive that the 269 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: left continues to push today. You talk about abortion is 270 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: one that comes up fairly often, and I know you're 271 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: pro life, Um, thank you for that, and so am I. Uh, 272 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: when when it comes to those kind of issues, the 273 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: best answer is what the Bible says, choose life, is 274 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: it not? It is? So that that that's that's a 275 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: great example. So thanks for bringing that up. So what 276 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: I'd say is, I'm not asking you to change this 277 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: idea that you know life begins at conception, and that 278 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: you know we're we're we're all created in the image 279 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: of God, and so taking that life and you know 280 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: in the womb is is is destroying and is it 281 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: is killing somebody that's truly created in the image of God. 282 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to change that. I'm just saying this, 283 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: what if you approached the conversation in a different way. 284 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: Here's what my point is, Christians, just like everyone else, 285 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: we're just as likely to send the hateful email. We're 286 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: just as likely in the argument to try to come 287 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: up with the clever put down that will say, ha, 288 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: see I won the argument. But if our goal is 289 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: to get to truth and not just to win the argument, 290 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: I'd ask you this, has anybody ever changed your mind 291 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: when they've come with a really clever put down of 292 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: your position? No? Not quite No, No, so you don't. 293 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: It actually just makes you dig in. So I'm saying 294 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: do we really trust God? And saying rather than coming 295 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: to this public discussion with hatred for the other side 296 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: and with a desire to win the argument. What if 297 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: we came as people who are who are humble in 298 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: general and yet committed to the truth. And I think 299 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: we here's my point, as Christians. We we serve a 300 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: God who exhibited what love and truth looks like at 301 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: the same time. Right, That's what a cross is about. 302 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: It's about uh, justice, that we needed someone to die 303 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: for us and mercy a God who is willing to 304 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: do that for us. And so of all people, we 305 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: should be people who bring to the public discussion this 306 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: idea of bringing justice and mercy at the same time, 307 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: justice and mercy, and and that kind of brings me 308 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: to something I was talking about on the Era earlier today. 309 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: We're talking about the defund the police movement, specifically in 310 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: in New York City. UM as an example, shootings went 311 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: up ninetiesent homicides went up, that was in this year, 312 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: and violent assaults, felony assaults. I should say, uh, and 313 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: you have that's one side of it. Defund the police. 314 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: We needed to strip all their resources away. They shouldn't 315 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: be involved in any much of anything, no public safety. 316 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: Then you have another side, um, the Black Lives Matter 317 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: side who who advocates for similar things, but they're not 318 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: necessarily to defund the police movement, but they've been a 319 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: part of that conversation. So when you're bringing the sides 320 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: to the table that support the police holistically, they may 321 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: want to see some incremental changes, but maybe not overarching 322 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: reform of the police. How do you bring all these 323 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: three sides to the table to have the conversation, You 324 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: ask really good practical questions, by the way, because that's 325 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: what comes down to. So I'm I would definitely never 326 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: be in favor of defunding the police because you know, 327 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: is when people march through the streets saying no justice, 328 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: no piece, they're saying, we want justice, we want we 329 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: want the bad guys to get caught. And that's what 330 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: we all want, right, we all want if somebody's doing 331 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: something wrong, we want them to get you know, to 332 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: to to to stop that. Um and so but I 333 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: would say, what there's probably is some real value for 334 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: us and listening to the argument of why does that feel? 335 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: Why do you have such a different view about law 336 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: enforcement than I do? Uh to that person and understanding 337 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: there there's some pain in there, maybe from some unjust treatment, right, 338 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: I mean, it's uh, let's listen, I got you know, 339 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: I have I have too many friends who are who 340 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: are black man, who say, hey, I still get worried 341 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: every time I get pulled over in the car in 342 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: a way that I don't okay. So I'd argue that 343 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: helps me when I have friends that I respect and 344 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: love and they're they're you know, they're out doing doing 345 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: what they're supposed to be doing and they get pulled 346 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: over and they're terrified, And I think that would never 347 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: strike me to be terrified. I'd be, you know, like, hey, 348 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: why are you pulling me over? Um? So it helps 349 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: me understand that I do I agree with their solution 350 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: or their answer of defund the police. No, No, I don't. 351 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: I think it's a really bad idea. And I think 352 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: people would once they had that, they'd be saying, oops, 353 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: we picked the wrong door. So if I'm hearing you correctly, 354 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: are you saying first, try to understand, Try to understand 355 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: where the other side is coming from, so you can 356 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: have the conversation versus. What we see a lot in 357 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: politics is more so arguing across each other. No one's listening. 358 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: No one's really trying to have. The conversation is all 359 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: about sound bites and talking points and and getting the 360 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: slam dunk on Twitter where you get a million retweets bingo. 361 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 1: I'm Bill Haslaman I proved that message, you know. I 362 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: mean because because listen to getting that slam drunk on 363 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: Twitter feels good. But it doesn't change anybody's mind, right, 364 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: It doesn't change one person's mind. Now, a lot of 365 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: people on your side will retweet it, and you're going, wow, cool, 366 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: Look you know, look how many retweets I got. But 367 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: you didn't change one person on the other side's mind. Uh, 368 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: nor would I say. You know, remember this, we're the 369 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: people are supposed to love our enemies. Okay, that's really hard, 370 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: particularly in today's world. You know, you get you look 371 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: at what's happening in social media interchanges, go wow, it's 372 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: really hard to love that person right now. But that's 373 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: what we're called to do, and that's that's really hard. 374 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: People ask it's hard to be a Christian politician. I'm like, yeah, 375 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: it's really really hard to love your enemies when they're 376 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: taking shots at you twenty four hours a day. Um. 377 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: But but again, that's still what we're called to do. 378 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: And I think here's the other point i'd make is this. 379 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: People come to me all the time and say, Bill, 380 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: you don't understand what you're talking about. You don't understand 381 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: how high the stakes are. We're literally battling for the 382 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: soul of America here and you're wanting us to bring 383 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: a pillow to a knife fight. Okay, uh, And there's 384 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: too much at stake to act the way that you 385 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: talk about it said, Well, we don't say, in in 386 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: other things that we should suspend God's rules for that, 387 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: like you need to be ethical in your business unless 388 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: you're about to go bankrupt, and then you can do 389 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: whatever you want. You know, we don't say you should 390 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: be faithful to your wife unless somebody really really attractive comes, 391 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, we don't. We don't do that. We say 392 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: God's truth is God truth. In politics, we say we 393 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: don't really want to act the way God asked us too, 394 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: because the stakes are so high. That's a good point. 395 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: And there's a transition point. I want to ask you 396 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: about that because you were saying keep the consistency and 397 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: as believers, we have to model a particular behavior. Now, 398 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: how do you respond to some of the things that 399 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: President Trump might have said, whether it be on television 400 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: or interviews, and you know, we can be honest, and 401 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: I'm I have no qualms about it. I think President 402 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: Trump has done a lot of good from a policy perspective, 403 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: but there were areas in which he was divisive. And 404 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: I also understand that folks on our left are very divisive. 405 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: I get that. What do you say in regard to 406 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: that when the President Trump some of the things that 407 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: Eve has said or done, that we're divisive? You know, 408 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I mean that I agree. I mean, 409 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: I think part of President Trump style was to try 410 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: to divide the country, find some really how button issues 411 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: and try to get a few more on my side 412 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: than the other side. Uh. And folks on the left 413 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: are guilty of that too, you know, that's their game. 414 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: Let's find some arguments that get our folks fired up. 415 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: Uh And and that will rally people to the polls 416 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: or to give more money or whatever it is that 417 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: that I mean, he said, that's a little bit the 418 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: game that both sides are playing. But my question would be, 419 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: how's that working? You know, how where's that left us? 420 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: And aren't we supposed to be different. I mean, if 421 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: you read, if you read the Servant on the amount, 422 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: the clear messages, be different, be different than the rest 423 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: of the world. And the reason I wrote this book 424 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: is this Christians aren't acting any different than anyone else 425 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: when it comes to this hateful political environment that we're in, 426 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: and we're supposed to be different. So we need we 427 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: need to do something different, right. And I would say 428 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: with with that is that starts by we needed we 429 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: need to act differently. You know when I mean hit 430 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: the example like when the woman is caught in adultery 431 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: and dragged before Jesus and the crowd. And the crowd 432 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: Jesus doesn't start with the woman. He starts with the 433 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: religious types, right. He starts with folks like you and me. 434 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: He says, okay, you know, everybody that hadn't sinned, go 435 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: ahead and throw the first stones. And interestingly, it says, 436 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: and beginning with the older ones, they dropped their stones 437 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: and walked away. I think one of the things that 438 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: you we realize older we get is like we realized, like, 439 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: I'm a sinful, broken person here. That's part of the gospel, right, 440 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: That's part of what Romans three says all of sin 441 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: and falls short of the glory of God. And I 442 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: don't Jesus. When Jesus comes and looks at a situation 443 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: it's a problem. He doesn't say, Wow, look the world 444 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: has gone bad. Isn't the world horrible? He says, the 445 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: meat's gone bad. That's what the salt was for. And 446 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: unfortunately the next line is a scary one. And if 447 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: the salt is lost at saltiness, it's good for no 448 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: thing except to be thrown out and trampled under feet 449 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: under foot. I think that's my question is, let's, as 450 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: believers we look at a situation like this and we say, man, 451 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: I can't believe how bad the worlds. Let's start with us, 452 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: because that's where Jesus usually starts. You know what's interesting 453 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: about you using? Uh that that time in scripture and 454 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: I was having lunch with the pastor just about a 455 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and he was using an example 456 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: he without saying, let him cast the first stone, which 457 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: is often we see in cancel culture. They didn't hear 458 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: the part of he without saying, they just got stones. 459 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: So what's your take on cancel culture? It should there 460 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: be a redemptive uh phase and all of that or 461 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: what you do, Hunt. I mean, I love your word 462 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: redemptive there, because there's nothing redemptive about the battle back 463 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: and forth and what happens in cancel culture. Now, you 464 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: know the other interestingt thing like you said, the point is, 465 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: you know he does come back and tell the woman 466 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: go and send no more. Absolutely you know that that 467 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: part happens to right, It's not just like okay, starting 468 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: with you religious types, you know, you throw the first 469 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: end stone, but he does actually personally address her at 470 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: the end and say, hey, this isn't working. You need 471 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: to change and repent to Uh. I'm you know the 472 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't see anything biblical about cancel culture. 473 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: And so we have to be certain again starting with ourselves, 474 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: that we're not doing that to other folks and say, oh, 475 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: that crazy liberal I'm you know, they don't. They're they're 476 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: im who who would who would listen to them? Um? 477 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: You know, unfortunately for us are fortunately we're we're we're 478 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: with this idea that God says I've created man and 479 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: woman in my image, and so then we have to 480 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: treat people differently because of that. That person who is 481 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: the easiest for us to hate that person all of 482 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: us right now, if I said, quick, ten seconds, think 483 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: of who that person is who it's really hard for 484 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: you level we can all come to that person or 485 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: maybe two or three really quick. And God said you 486 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: have to remember, Bill, that person is created in My 487 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: image and that changes everything absolutely. Wow. Let me ask 488 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: you about this because and and it's interesting because I've 489 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: often talked about and I know we kind of touched 490 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: on it a little bit. I often talked talked about 491 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: in my book Take It for Granted, how conservatism can 492 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: went back to the American cyllaberalism failed. How it seems 493 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: as though folks on the left are continuously trying to 494 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: take God out of whether it be our government documents 495 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: or their political platforms. And you saw that happened in 496 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: the d n C. In You might have seen that 497 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: earlier this month, Joe Biden became the first American president 498 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: not to use the word God in the National Day 499 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: of Prayer proclamation. What was your reaction to that? You know, 500 00:26:54,560 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: Here's here's my thought, is um, in in this country, um, 501 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: folks who want to take faith out of the public 502 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: square are missing the incredible history and role that people 503 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: of faith have played in the polk square because of 504 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: their faith. The people who have build hospitals and started 505 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: schools and all because of a trust and a faith 506 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: in Christ. Okay, and we have founders people like John 507 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: Adams that said, you know, our constitution is holy. I'm 508 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,239 Speaker 1: gonna mess up the quote here, but predicated on the 509 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: idea of a belief in God, and it's it's you know, 510 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: totally totally unable to to to govern the country without that. 511 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: So this idea that somehow we're supposed to uh that 512 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: our government is not supposed to uh include people of 513 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: faith acting on that faith. I don't know where they 514 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: got that idea. That's that's always been part of who 515 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: we are now. I think the genius of the of 516 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: our found there's also was we're not going to have 517 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: a government established religion because if when every time we 518 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: do that, it's the church that loses. Think about where 519 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: the church is strong around the world and where it's not. 520 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: Think about Europe, where the church is not very strong. 521 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: There used to be a state religion there, and when 522 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: the government becomes the church, the church is the one 523 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: that loses, not the government. But do we really want 524 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: to have a nation that is uh. We love a 525 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: nation that acts more Christian, But I don't think we 526 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: want an official state religion because then it will become 527 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: an official state religion instead of who you are and 528 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: what you are, and then it will change because of 529 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: the political party. A person is running it. That's it. 530 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: That's it. Now, it's hard to deny that culture is 531 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: becoming increasingly secular, especially as a left control so many 532 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: of our institutions, our universities, the media, Hollywood. Do you 533 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: find this trend troubling and if so, what can be 534 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: done about it? Well? I do, I mean, I think 535 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: our culture has changed a couple of thoughts. First, for us, 536 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: for us as believers, the wrong thing to do is 537 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: to react out of fear, a speed of fear. But 538 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: thank you, Like I said, thanks, I appreciate, And you know, 539 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: fear not is all through scripture and we're not We're 540 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: not supposed to act like, oh, you know, we used 541 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: to be the home team and now we're the visiting team, 542 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: and the visiting team. I'm I'm I'm afraid to play 543 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: that role. It's just not who we're supposed to be. 544 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: Should we be concerned that as the culture starts to 545 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: change and our children, you know, grow up in a 546 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: different world. Should we be very mindful that we should? Um? 547 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: And we need to realize we need to teach our 548 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: children differently than we might have thirty years ago or 549 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: fifty years ago in terms of what's okay and what's 550 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: what's not okay. Um. But again, I think the second 551 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: thing is we need to say, you know, think about 552 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: the dollars and the time that have spent on outreach 553 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: for the Christian faith recently, and the involvement that Christians 554 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: have had in politics, and yet the world keeps kind 555 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: of shifting away from us. And I think my point 556 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: would be, what we've tried, the way we've tried to 557 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: do Christian politics has not worked because we haven't done 558 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: it in a spirit of acting, acting justly, loving mercy, 559 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: and walking humbly. Okay, I get I get that point. Now. 560 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: The tough part about it is, I think when you 561 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: have institutions that are controlled, one in which our children 562 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: listened to, and these messages are amplified by way of media, 563 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: TV shows, Instagram, you have people, especially in in my age. 564 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: I'm thirty four, I'll be thirty five in December, but 565 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: it's it's for dating as an example, has become increasingly 566 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: tough for a lot of folks because you've got all 567 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: this imagery plan what you should look like, what you 568 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: should be, what kind of music you should listen to, 569 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: and it's allowed for people to have real strong identity crisis, 570 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, Like it's just it's very hard for folks 571 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: to really maintain their sense of who they are, what 572 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: they grew up having when you have this amplification all 573 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: the time. You open up your iPhone and I add 574 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: might pop up that says something that you know, us 575 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: as Christians may not even want on their right and 576 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: the government can play a role in that part, you know, obviously. 577 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: But it's just an interesting environment. So I think you're 578 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: I think your your observations are really good. One I 579 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: want to say this, like I said, as you look 580 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: at that world changing, Like said, I've got my kids 581 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 1: are about your age, I've got grandkids, and I think about, man, 582 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: look at the world they're going to grow up in with, 583 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, everything from you know, the wildest worst kind 584 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: of pornography available in two seconds on their phone to 585 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: everything else that would happen. So what I'd take in 586 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: is should we be fearful about the cultural changes. No, 587 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: should we be very mindful of them for the very 588 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: reason you said? You bet? And would I tell you, 589 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: if you're getting ready to raise children, that your children 590 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: are going to grow up in a very different environment 591 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: than you did And then my kids did, Yes, And 592 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: so should you take a different approach to parenting because 593 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: of that? Yes? You should. Now since you brought up 594 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: your your children, I want to mention something that is 595 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: in your book, and you may like. Man, my book 596 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: isn't out just yet, but it was in the just 597 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: a sample copy. I should. I wish I had a 598 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: copy of it to read from. I only saw some 599 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: of it, but um, you said, and too will Hannah, Anna, David, 600 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: Leah and Matt. As hard as it is to be 601 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: and politics, it's even harder to be in a politicians family. 602 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for loving me so well and for standing up 603 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: for me even when I didn't always deserve it. I 604 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: love all of you. So what were the times that 605 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: you can tell us what you felt like you didn't 606 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: deserve them to stand up and love you in that way? Well, 607 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give you a great except, like I said, 608 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: running for office is really hard. And you know, one 609 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: of the things we're supposed to be as believers, as 610 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, being anxious for nothing, but in everything by 611 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: prayer and supplication, thanks to the Lord. So I can 612 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: tell you I spent a year and a half of 613 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: campaign running for governor anxious, you know, uh, thinking, oh, 614 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: what happens if I lose? You know, what happens if 615 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: my opponents say something bad about me? All the things 616 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: that you feel personally vulnerable in. Uh, you know, there's 617 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: it's just as a politician you feel all that. As 618 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: you'r as their family, you feel it even stronger. And 619 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: so you know, there's any number of times when I 620 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: would say, um, you know, how did I do on 621 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: being anxious for nothing? Not so good? How did I 622 00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: do on you know? It says you know, but with humility, 623 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: each of you consider others better than yourselves. How did 624 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: I do on that? Not? Always so good? I mean, 625 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: I can go through lots of things that, um, And 626 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: I remember one time one of my I was listening. 627 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: When you're in politics, it's a little like being a pastor. 628 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: Everybody wants your time, okay, and so you learn to 629 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: have these quick conversations. You know. If you don't, you'll 630 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: you'll never get home at night. Yeah, you try to 631 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: get out of a one with me. I'm gonna give 632 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: you the medium story, not the whole Well, but like 633 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: I said, I'm or I'm you know, hey, I'm I'm 634 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: walking into church and in between, you know, the the 635 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: our security agents, car and my few fifty people try 636 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: something like if I have all those conversations, I'm never 637 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: getting worship. And the same thing with if I'm going 638 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: to a restaurant or whatever. And so you kind of 639 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: learned to have these really quick conversations with people like hey, thanks, 640 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: blahah blah and keep moving. And one time we're at 641 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving so with or with my extended family, and my 642 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: son kind of grabbed me and goes. You realize you're 643 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: having two minute conversations with every about it, right, And 644 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I didn't, but but you're a hundred 645 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: percent right. I had had that, had just become who 646 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: I was, and I wouldn't listen. I was kind of 647 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: given the two or three minutes and move on to 648 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: the next person deal. And there's a good example of 649 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: learning the wrong lessons. Before we move on, let's take 650 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: a quick break back on the self. Basically, what you 651 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: were saying is, Hey, there was some shortcomings as a believer, 652 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: but you get better with Tom and you just continue 653 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: to continue to push your best footfall, and hopefully that's 654 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: what redemption looks like, right as we all start to 655 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: look a little bit more like the god that we 656 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: were creating the image of a Now, let me ask 657 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: you this question. Do you have any regrets from your 658 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: time in public office? Oh? Man, I have a lot. 659 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's such a rare opportunity to 660 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: get to do it that you want to make certain 661 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: you take maxim advantage of. And there's lots of things that, 662 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: oh boy, if I had taken a different approach, which 663 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: we might have gotten that bill passed that lost in 664 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: the legislature, or if I had hired this person, we 665 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: might have been able to provide better services. You make 666 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: so many decisions in office, and some of them are good, 667 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: but not all of them. But so do I have 668 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: some regrets for things I do differently? Yes? Do I 669 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: have any regret about doing it? No? I still consider 670 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: it an incredible blessing to have had that calling for 671 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: for that period of my life. And and that's good 672 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: that you mentioned that. I appreciate you you telling me that. 673 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: And as a person who has been a politician, I 674 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: elected by the people and of course need to represent 675 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: their constituents as you you did, and look at their 676 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: best interests. What happens if a politician's conscious conflicts with 677 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: what this constituents want? Do you ever? Did you ever 678 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: have that experience as mayor a governor? Several times, and 679 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: sometimes not just your sometimes you're concentime, just your your 680 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: thoughtful opinion, because as governor you might know more of 681 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: the situation than everyone us, uh, and you might know 682 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: the rest of the story. So there were times when 683 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, the overwhelming, you know, volume of emails and 684 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: phone calls was do this or don't do that? That 685 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: We did not do what those folks were saying. So 686 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: sometimes it was for matters of conscience what I what 687 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: I felt to be the right thing. And sometimes it 688 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: was just at the end of the day, my my 689 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: judgment on that issue. And I wouldn't say it was 690 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: necessarily a moral right or wrong, just I hear you understand, 691 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: But given where I am and what I've learned about 692 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: the situation, this is the one the path that I 693 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: think is right, and so ultimately the decision is with you, 694 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: and you have to weigh where you what you feel 695 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: is the best decision for your constituents, and and how 696 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: you feel as a as a moral reasoning. Is that right? 697 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: I think you did a nice job of summarizing. Okay, 698 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: now correct me if I'm wrong, But I believe you 699 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: did not vote for Trump in No, I'd said I 700 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: was not going to uh in in sixteen when some 701 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: of the issues came up. Actually, what I said was 702 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: this is when the whole scandal around Billy Bush and 703 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: oh yes, yes, yes, I remember that Saturday, trust me, 704 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: I was on the phone with the R and C. Yeah. Right, 705 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: So at the time, I just said, hey, I think 706 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: it'd be better for the Republican Party at this time, 707 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: uh if uh, you know, if uh Trump stepped aside 708 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: and let Mike Pins be the candidate. And I just 709 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: at the time I thought that that would be the 710 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: right thing for the country. Okay, So in you said 711 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: that you would vote for him if he was the nominee. 712 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: So what was the change there? Well, you know, listen, 713 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: you know anytime you talk about President Trump that you 714 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: could go into a long conversation right as you did 715 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: earlier about uh you know, streaks and weaknesses. Um and 716 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know if that's the that that's 717 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: something I want to delve into deep. Right, Like I 718 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: said in two thousands sixteen, I just felt really strongly, 719 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: given the circumstances, that was not the right step forward 720 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: for the Republican Party or for the country. Okay, but 721 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: you had a change of heart and you supported him. Well, 722 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: I'm not sure certain he would count me as among 723 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: his most fervidces. I'm sure he has a good long 724 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: memory too. Yeah, I know he, I know he does. Well. 725 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,720 Speaker 1: For my final question, I want to ask you about 726 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: the future of the Republican Party. Do you think the 727 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: party is a in a good place today and moving forward? 728 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: What should a GOP be doing and put itself in 729 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: a better per I think we're I think it's a 730 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: really important decision point that there's certain things that I 731 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: think if the party has always been strong about that 732 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: I want us to stay strong about about. I believe in, 733 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: you know, I believe the market based economy we're in 734 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: is a lot better than a socialist based economy. I 735 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: believe in Republican Party's position on on matters around um 736 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: life and choice of crow life and first row choice. 737 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: I believe, Um, the historic dance we put on America 738 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 1: playing a leading role in the world are really important. Um, 739 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: I don't think we've historically done a good job. What 740 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: I think is what I think President Trump realized was 741 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of America that feels left behind. 742 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: And they look at the Democrat Party and say, they're 743 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: talking about transgender bathroom uses and that's not where I am. 744 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: And they look at the Republican Party and say, it 745 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: feels like a lot of country club types. That's not me. 746 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: And they felt, you know, hey, this world changing fast. 747 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm I'm feeling like I'm being left behind here. Nobody's 748 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: been concerned about me, and I don't think we can 749 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: be that party and still be effective. So Republicans need 750 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: to do a better job at outreach and bringing more 751 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: people into the tent, especially African Americans. I think Trump 752 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: was really gifted when it comes to that. Obviously, he 753 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: had some missteps and some things he perhaps shouldn't have said. However, 754 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: there was no candidate or president that I've seen that 755 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: talked about black folks and what he was going to 756 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: do for them so much, and it obviously paid dividends 757 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: when it came to election night nine as great as 758 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: some people might have predicted, but certainly more than Democrats 759 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: and most media expected. Yeah, I think that's fair and 760 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: that was what surprised a lot of people in the 761 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 1: election result. Is that not just with Blacks, but with Thepanics, 762 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: the vote was. It was a lot different than what 763 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: people if. If you ask why the election was closer 764 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: than people are expecting, I think that's it. Well, Governor, 765 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: thank you for joining Out Loud with Giano Caldwell. Governor 766 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 1: Bill Haslam and I certainly appreciate it your your time today, 767 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: and I think one day we're gonna work together in 768 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: some capacity. We'll do something. But I hope that we 769 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: can stay in touch. Sincerely, now, I've loved the conversation. 770 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for letting me be on the show. I want 771 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: to thank Governor Bill has Them again for a great interview. 772 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review 773 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: and rate us with five stars on Apple Podcast. If 774 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: you have any questions for me, please email me at 775 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: Out Loud the Ginguish Come and I'll try to answer 776 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: them in our future episodes. And please sign up for 777 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: my monthly newsletter at gingligh Street sixty dot com, slash 778 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: out Loud. You can also find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, 779 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: and parlor at Giano Caldwell. And if you're interested in 780 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: learning more about my story, please pick up a copy 781 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: of my best selling book title Taken for Granted, How 782 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: Conservatism Can Win back to the Americans they Liberalism failed. 783 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: Special thanks to our producer John Cassio, researcher Aaron Klinman, 784 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: and executive producers Debbie Miners and speaker New Gingwich, all 785 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: part of the Ginglish Street sixty network