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Speaker 1: Catherine Stewart is the author of Power Worshippers The Rise

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Speaker 1: of Religious Nationalism. She is an author, an investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very pleased to be joined by her today

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Speaker 1: to have what I hope is a very important discussion

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Speaker 1: for all of you about a great danger that we

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Speaker 1: all face and isn't talked about enough in my view.

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Speaker 1: And Catherine, I just want to start out here.

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Speaker 2: I had a.

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Speaker 1: Experience in the last couple of weeks, two actually, that

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Speaker 1: I want to share with you before we get into

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Speaker 1: a discussion about the danger. In the first one was

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Speaker 1: sitting down with a young journalist and by young, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say early thirties, and was watching CNN on

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Speaker 1: a television screen and was asking a political question premised

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Speaker 1: on well, if this is on CNN, how could possibly

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Speaker 1: this other competing message ever get through? And what was

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Speaker 1: on CNN, of course, was the Israeli gods of war.

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Speaker 1: And what I said to the journalist was, you want

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Speaker 1: understand that there's like one hundred and forty eight thousand

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Speaker 1: people in the country watching this right now. And I

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Speaker 1: pointed to someone who was like walking by on the

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Speaker 1: street and I said, you appreciate, right, that that person

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Speaker 1: like they in their visual acuity, they're seeing something completely

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Speaker 1: different than what you're seeing, which, along with me, are

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Speaker 1: two of the one hundred and forty eight thousand people

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Speaker 1: in our country at three hundred and thirty million watching

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Speaker 1: what we're watching on CNN. So then I'm having another conversation,

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Speaker 1: and it's a it's with a woman who is erudite,

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Speaker 1: well read smart, but falls into this category of people

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Speaker 1: that when they're exposed to something they don't know, their

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Speaker 1: response isn't I don't know that tell me more, it's

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Speaker 1: that since I don't know about it, it can't possibly be.

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Speaker 1: And so this conversation goes like this, well, have you

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Speaker 1: heard about the Claremont Institute?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Well, do you know about the plan that's developed at

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Speaker 1: the Claremont Institute that would disassemble really at a structural

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Speaker 1: level the.

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Speaker 2: American guy government.

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Speaker 1: No, well, it's been written about where because I read everything,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, but not everything obviously, right if

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Speaker 1: you haven't read the things that have been written, like

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Speaker 1: by Catherine Stewart about the about the Claremont Institute. And

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Speaker 1: so then the conversation goes on and it ends and

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of thinking about it.

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Speaker 2: Like a little bit later.

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Speaker 1: And over my career, my years in politics, my years

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Speaker 1: on a set as an analyst at a network, all

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Speaker 1: all of these, all these accumulated experience.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: What I what I've come to understand is the power

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Speaker 1: of the news executive at some level is the power

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Speaker 1: of omission. Right, What what doesn't get seen, what doesn't

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Speaker 1: get heard? What is chosen?

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Speaker 2: Right? What is the.

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Speaker 1: Middle denominator right or the least common denominator right, depending

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Speaker 1: on how you look at it. So, if you were

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Speaker 1: sitting objectively in a newsroom, right, if I was the

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Speaker 1: new guy at CNN, right, I was the British guy,

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Speaker 1: right that they brought in from the BBC, who I'm

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Speaker 1: sure will help connect them more deeply to Red America

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Speaker 1: and flyover country. But I digress. But if I was

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Speaker 1: that guy, we're having the first meeting, You're kind of like,

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the world.

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Speaker 2: I would start.

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Speaker 1: At some level with there's an incredibly well funded fascist organization.

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Speaker 2: That has.

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Speaker 1: Established intellectual coher hehearrance under an umbrella offer to it

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Speaker 1: that gives us some legitimacy at a place called the

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Speaker 1: Claremont Institute. And there is an operating plan the second

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Speaker 1: that Trump comes in that's now surfaced in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks since you wrote your story about the

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Speaker 1: Claremont Institute projective. We're gonna take out fifty thousand civil servants,

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Speaker 1: We're going to create concentration camps to round up millions

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Speaker 1: of people for deportation. We're going to arrest political opponents,

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Speaker 1: and importantly, at moment one, we're going to invoke the

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Speaker 1: Insurrection Act of seventeen ninety one or two and deploy

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Speaker 1: the American military onto the street if the chain of

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Speaker 1: command would follow an i legal and unconstitutional order from

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Speaker 1: the President of the United States, which is really the

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Speaker 1: great unknown variable out there. So with that, my question

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Speaker 1: to you is this.

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Speaker 2: Am I nuts.

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Speaker 4: For?

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Speaker 1: Is the threat? Would I believe it to be? Based

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Speaker 1: on your writings?

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Speaker 2: It?

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Speaker 5: Should?

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Speaker 1: We take Donald Trump seriously when he says the things

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Speaker 1: that he says, including directly using the language of Adolph Hitler,

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Speaker 1: which is the use of the word vermin, which was deliberate, purposeful, premeditated,

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Speaker 1: and absolutely the word from page one of the Joseph

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Speaker 1: Godbl's Playbook. If you know your history, well, you're right.

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Speaker 3: This language is not Nazi like it is actually Nazi language,

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Speaker 3: and it is very dangerous. This kind of dehumanization of

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Speaker 3: one's political enemies always precedes a kind of authoritarian actions,

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Speaker 3: and fascist, fascist actions are always proceeded by this kind

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Speaker 3: of language, the identification of an internal enemy that represents

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Speaker 3: an apocalyptic threat to the nation. And your question is

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Speaker 3: should we take this seriously? And I think when we

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Speaker 3: look at the Claremont Institute, we absolutely have to take

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Speaker 3: it seriously. And I'd like to outline, if I may,

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Speaker 3: three sort of factors that explain the Clermont Institute that

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Speaker 3: show why we need to take it seriously. The first

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Speaker 3: thing is that this is you know, you hear Claremont Institute.

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Speaker 3: You picture a bunch of hippies on the beach. They're

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Speaker 3: not that, okay, They're not a fringe group. They are

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Speaker 3: very powerful and they now have a very deep network

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Speaker 3: that is connected with leading Republican politicians, including Trump and

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Speaker 3: his shadow Cabinet, which we see outlined in documents like

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Speaker 3: Project twenty twenty five. It's a massive document that includes

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Speaker 3: a lot of contributors from the Claremont Institute, and it's

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Speaker 3: a plan for how they want to reshape our government

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Speaker 3: in really fundamental ways.

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Speaker 5: So again, this is not a fringe group.

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Speaker 3: It's there's always been you know, nuts and bolts, and

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Speaker 3: you know in American society, some you know extremes here

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Speaker 3: and there. But this is a really a group that

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Speaker 3: has a potential to take power in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 3: So that's the first point in terms of their basic ideas.

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Speaker 3: The most important one, you know, when we're talking about

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Speaker 3: language of the nazis the most important point that I

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Speaker 3: think they they seem to represent is what the Nazi

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Speaker 3: political theorist Karl Schmidt would call the state of emergency. So,

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Speaker 3: in their view, America is so broken, it's certain to collapse.

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Speaker 3: We're going to hell in a handbasket, and any intervention

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Speaker 3: is justified, and we need to set aside any laws

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Speaker 3: and institutions that get in the way of their response.

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Speaker 3: More specifically, I think they you know, we always hear

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Speaker 3: all this talk about a woke elite and woke communists.

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Speaker 3: This is something Vivek Ramaswami has said and also Trump

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Speaker 3: has said it a number of times. They think this

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Speaker 3: woke elite has captured what they call the administrative state.

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Speaker 3: That's you know, the air traffic controllers for safety commissioners,

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Speaker 3: the military, you know, all of it, the intelligence services, FBI,

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Speaker 3: and they they think that this so called administrative state

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Speaker 3: is bent on absolutely destroying America and destroying everything, you know,

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Speaker 3: taking away everything good that we all value, and it

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Speaker 3: needs to be rooted out at any and all costs.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's frankly the most important aspect of

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Speaker 3: their political creed, and that sort of authoritarianism is always

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Speaker 3: tied to the sense of crisis and the idea that

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Speaker 3: intellectuals are to blame. So a second thing that we

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Speaker 3: need to draw out is this idea that the new order,

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Speaker 3: the solution this problem involves two distinct groups of people.

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Speaker 3: There's the intellectual cadres, sort of special people, the intellectuals,

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Speaker 3: the thinkers on their side, who are going to be

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Speaker 3: the new elead and are going to create a sort

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Speaker 3: of right thinking conservative vanguard.

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Speaker 5: And on the other.

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Speaker 3: Hand, you have the people, the virtuous people who are

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Speaker 3: cast as real Americans as opposed to the internal enemy

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Speaker 3: that Trump identifies. Steve Bannon and some of the Claremonts

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Speaker 3: refer to them as the Hobbits and the Shire. They

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Speaker 3: don't often know really what's going on, and that's okay.

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Speaker 3: They just that might actually be preferable, but they need

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Speaker 3: to be disinformed enough to be led by that right

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Speaker 3: thinking and supposedly virtuous lete and do.

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Speaker 5: What they want.

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Speaker 3: And you know, that's these are three things to keep

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Speaker 3: in mind. It's you know, when Trump talks about how

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Speaker 3: we're facing this existential crisis, the consequences of loss and

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Speaker 3: the political arena are too dire to ignore, and we

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Speaker 3: need to do these radical actions.

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Speaker 5: It's he's not the only one saying this.

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Speaker 3: You've got this whole think tank that is echoing and

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Speaker 3: in many ways pushing forth these ideas. You know, this

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Speaker 3: is a movement that long preceded Donald Trump, and frankly

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Speaker 3: it will long outlast him.

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Speaker 1: Well, you are describing on the second part of this

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Speaker 1: at an organizational level, is really a model of a

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Speaker 1: cadre intellectual dogmatic in the vanguard and spearheading a revolutionary

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Speaker 1: movement that's aimed at destroying and carrying down in the

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Speaker 1: name of what the Germans would have called the vulcan

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Speaker 1: the people. And it's important to recognize something at the

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Speaker 1: outset of this conversation and what is anesthetical to Americanism

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Speaker 1: about this movement. So there have been searing speeches denunciations

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Speaker 1: of the United States and its hypocrisies that we can

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Speaker 1: look back and remember through the lens of history, not

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Speaker 1: just as great orations, but tremendous moral moments in the

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Speaker 1: development of the republic that is to be, that is coming,

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Speaker 1: that is emerging. So Frederick Douglas speaks, and he says,

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Speaker 1: what is the fourth of July to a slave? And

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Speaker 1: he condemns the United States of America in a time

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Speaker 1: where slavery exists, and lives his life in opposition way

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Speaker 1: to this a moral condition. We look back on this

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Speaker 1: now through the prism of one hundred some years after

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Speaker 1: that of Martin Luther King coming to the Lincoln Memorial

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Speaker 1: marching under the American flag, not to do as the

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Speaker 1: Claremont Institute wishes to do, which is to tear down

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King, comes, in his words, to collect a

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Speaker 1: promisory note. He simply wants to be included in the

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Speaker 1: idea and ideal that says all men are created equal.

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Speaker 1: And so every group of Americans that has sought to

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Speaker 1: step out of the darkness and into the sun of liberty. Importantly,

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Speaker 1: Frederick Douglas is the speaker at one of the first

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Speaker 1: gathering of women demanding the franchise, and it's Frederick Douglas

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Speaker 1: who propels the motion forward that day that yes, women

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Speaker 1: in that moment should take the step and declare in

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Speaker 1: a resolution that we should have the right, that we

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Speaker 1: should have the right to vote. But always the movement

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Speaker 1: is to be included within and under that these universal

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Speaker 1: rights are proclaimed as including all people. Really, the opposition

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Speaker 1: movements in America have been humanist movements, moral movements, human

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Speaker 1: rights movements, but that's not what this movement is. There's

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Speaker 1: a destructive movement that seeks to tear down something that's

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty years old.

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Speaker 3: That's right, you know, Clarmont provide the platform for a

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Speaker 3: white nationalists. Interesting that you mentioned Douglas and Martin Luther

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Speaker 3: King is wanting to be included in the you know,

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Speaker 3: in the America and protected by the principles of equality

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Speaker 3: and pluralism that represent the best of the American promise.

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Speaker 3: But the folks that comprise a New Right are all

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Speaker 3: in on hierarchies. They they platform white nationalists and insurrectionists,

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Speaker 3: people who have sought They can't forget that Claremont Institute

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Speaker 3: was the intellectual home of John Eastman, otherwise known as

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Speaker 3: co conspirator in the Trump indictment. They platform supporters of

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Speaker 3: political violence and fundamental illiberalism, and they they know. This

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Speaker 3: is a think tank that publishes a couple of journals,

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Speaker 3: and they publish or affirmatively review, or even offer have

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Speaker 3: offered fellowships to racist replacement theorists and other conspiracists along

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Speaker 3: with those who just want to burn democracy down. They

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Speaker 3: want to burn it down and seize control of what remains. Now,

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Speaker 3: that's really nothing remotely conservative about this. This is radical.

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Speaker 3: They're not conservative at all. They claim an interest in

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Speaker 3: political philosophy and study the past, but in truth, they

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Speaker 3: appear to have little interest in learning from the past

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Speaker 3: or an honest study of the past. They're really driven

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Speaker 3: instead by hatred of groups or aspects of life in

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Speaker 3: the present that make them feel uncomfortable, and so they

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Speaker 3: map them onto a fictional narrative involving an imaginary past.

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Speaker 3: This isn't intellectual history. This is a cartoon history rooted

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Speaker 3: in some kind of reactionary pathology.

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Speaker 1: It's rooted in a mythology of fantasy and a fantasy

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Speaker 1: of mythology. Let's unpack some of this a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: And what I would say is, I've always loved history,

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Speaker 1: and it was the thing that excited me in school.

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Speaker 1: It ignited for me a love reading and a passion

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Speaker 1: for the news and journalism, and all of it was

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Speaker 1: always steeped in what happens next, what's going to happen next.

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Speaker 1: And if you fall in love with history and you

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Speaker 1: put it on a speed loop, you have in the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century, the seventeenth century, the early eighteenth century, you

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Speaker 1: have this meeting on the North American and South American

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Speaker 1: continent of civilizations, one in many ways morally and spiritually

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Speaker 1: superior in harmony for six hundred generations, with the land,

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Speaker 1: the water, the mountains, and the other technologically superior, the Europeans.

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Speaker 1: And this cataclysm comes. But along this arc the values

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Speaker 1: of humanism, the Enlightenment, the idea that leads to the

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Speaker 1: birth of the United States, all of the developments the

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Speaker 1: industrial Age through the nineteenth century, and the stars to

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Speaker 1: pick up in the eighteen seventies. Right after the American

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Speaker 1: Civil War, you get a taste of twentieth century warfare.

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Speaker 1: And then in the eighteen seventies the Franco Prussian War,

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Speaker 1: which is the precursor to the First World War, and

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Speaker 1: you come barreling through into the third decade of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century, and Adolph Hitler comes on the edge of

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Speaker 1: achieving political power in nineteen thirty three as Chancellor. He

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Speaker 1: comes the year before to Dusseldorf to deliver a political

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Speaker 1: speech to the industrialists, who are the equivalent of today's

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Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce. And none of these people like Hitler.

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Speaker 1: Every one of these people had the exact same attitude

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Speaker 1: towards Hitler that everyone of their successors American business had

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Speaker 1: towards Trump in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. And so you

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Speaker 1: look at German society and you have the military, you

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Speaker 1: have an aristocracy, you have a powerful Catholic clergy and

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Speaker 1: Protestant clergy, and you have a middle class, and you

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Speaker 1: have an industrial base. And the argument that Hitler makes

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Speaker 1: to them at the core is an argument that has

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Speaker 1: not been really heard in a coherent fashion until the

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Speaker 1: Claremont Institute started making this argument. And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be provocative here, and I want you to push back

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Speaker 1: on me if you think I'm exaggerating, If there's any errancy,

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Speaker 1: is I interpret the Claremont message as Hilarian. This is

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Speaker 1: what Adolf Hitler says in this speech. He says that

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Speaker 1: democracy enslaves you. It's a lie. And he predicts that

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Speaker 1: one day in the United States, because of democracy, black

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Speaker 1: people are going to have the right to vote and

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Speaker 1: their vote will count equally to a white vote. And

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Speaker 1: since blacks are inferior to whites in the Nazi racial hierarchy,

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Speaker 1: this isn't democracy, this is slavery. And so Adolph Hitler

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Speaker 1: goes on in this speech to talk about the fact

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Speaker 1: that if everyone in a society who is unequal is

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Speaker 1: treated equally, what that does is punish the superior race,

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Speaker 1: the superior cast, diminishes them by taking away their God given,

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Speaker 1: divine and providential right through the prism of their superiority

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Speaker 1: to rule over as the Germans called them, the untermunson,

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Speaker 1: the underclasses.

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Speaker 2: And all of this is.

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Speaker 1: Kind of steeped and the theories in the writings of

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Speaker 1: a French nobleman named Arthur de gobin Now who wrote

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Speaker 1: a book in the eighteen fifties, and the book was

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Speaker 1: The Inequality of the Races. He ranked everybody, all of

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Speaker 1: the races in the world, and Gobino didn't really have

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Speaker 1: any particular brook against the Jews, who he described as

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Speaker 1: a clever race. But he did establish for the first

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Speaker 1: time what the superior race was, and that was the

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Speaker 1: Arian race. So he creates this term. We go about

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Speaker 1: eighty years. This is very standard Teddy Rosevelt. Everybody in

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Speaker 1: this moment of history believes in eugenics, accepts this as science.

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Speaker 1: This is, if not gospel, prevailing kind of sociological scientific wisdom.

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Speaker 1: And along comes the Nazis, and the Nazis, using some

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Speaker 1: of their racial laws on the basis of Southern misogynation

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Speaker 1: laws in the United States script citizenship for under classes,

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Speaker 1: lesser people, dehumanized as vermin and rats like the Jews,

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Speaker 1: like the Roma, like the Gypsies. And off they go

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Speaker 1: to concentration camps, detained, but not yet gassed and incinerated.

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Speaker 1: That comes later. But the doctrine of this, the dogma

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Speaker 1: of this, was that democracy is unfair, that democracy gives

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Speaker 1: a quality to people who are less than and therefore

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Speaker 1: is a burden on the people who are more than.

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Speaker 2: And this.

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Speaker 1: Is the philosophy of the Claremont Institute as they have

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Speaker 1: articulated it. In the words of the Claremont Institute.

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Speaker 4: What say you, well, I would say they're not the

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Speaker 4: only sector of the American right that has echoed this

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Speaker 4: idea that democracy is a heresy.

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Speaker 3: In fact, the term the heresy of democracy was used

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Speaker 3: by pro slavery theologians in the American South, some of

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Speaker 3: the leaders of the Southern Presbyterian Church, who were very

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Speaker 3: powerful at that time and very well funded, and were

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Speaker 3: absolutely on the side of the slaveholder, and accused abolitionist

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Speaker 3: theologians and other abolitionists as being communists, heretics, socialists, and

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Speaker 3: the like, and said that slaveholders were on the side

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Speaker 3: of order and regulated freedom. That's what they called it,

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Speaker 3: order and regulated freedom. Those ideas were echoed by some

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Speaker 3: mid century theologians. I'm thinking of people like Rusus John Rushdourney,

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Speaker 3: who is an actually extremely influential figure in the development

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Speaker 3: of America's religious right today, who also believed inequalities as

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Speaker 3: ordained by God white people over black people. Although he

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Speaker 3: was a little coy about that, but you can see

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Speaker 3: it in his writings where he offers a biblical justification

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Speaker 3: for the biblical forms of slavery, you know, not the

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Speaker 3: abusive forms, but the truly biblical forms of slavery are

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Speaker 3: just and always men over women, and these types of ideas.

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Speaker 3: Look the Cleremont Institute, I actually think a lot of

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Speaker 3: its leaders are atheistic if you delve into what they

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Speaker 3: really say. They're not leaders of the religious right, but

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Speaker 3: they do come down on the side of these kinds

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Speaker 3: of hierarchies.

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Speaker 5: Claremont is one of the.

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Speaker 3: Main purveyors of neo fascist ideology, and this ideology, it's

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Speaker 3: sad to say, is really driving much of the politics

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Speaker 3: in the Republican Party today. They've really, like the extremists

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Speaker 3: have really You've pointed this out many times. It's like

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Speaker 3: the Conservatism is eaten in a way by a sort

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Speaker 3: of right wing extremism because people capitulate and don't push back,

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Speaker 3: and extremists have been very organized and systematic in taking

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Speaker 3: over the party. So when you hear politicians, right wing

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Speaker 3: politicians today talk about what they call wocism, and they

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Speaker 3: describe it not as an annoyance or just sort of like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is irrational. They describe it as an actual form

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Speaker 3: of tyranny, an actual national emergency. When you people, you

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Speaker 3: hear them claim that the institutions of culture have all

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Speaker 3: been thoroughly captured by a leftist revolutionary elite.

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Speaker 5: Anyone to the left.

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Speaker 3: Of them must be the leader of a maoist insurgency.

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Speaker 3: These are all ideas factured by new writers and used

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Speaker 3: to justify an essentially authoritarian response. And you know, I

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Speaker 3: want to say that there's you know, you could call

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Speaker 3: it a dog whistle at the Claremont Institute for Racism

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Speaker 3: and Misogyny, but I actually think it's a bullhorn. The

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Speaker 3: Institute is really not doing anything to hide their extremism,

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Speaker 3: their extreme ideas, and frankly, I think it makes their position,

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Speaker 3: unfortunately more attractive to leaders with a reactionary mindset.

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Speaker 1: I think that there's no question that that's true. You

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Speaker 1: said something that I want to agree with that I

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Speaker 1: think it's important. A note in any discussion about this,

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Speaker 1: just as a historic and academic matter, is that when

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Speaker 1: Hitler comes to power and becomes chancellor, there are two

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Speaker 1: Nazi in the government at the beginning, Taylor as Chancellor

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Speaker 1: and there's some German version of the Secretary of hud

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Speaker 1: Right or Transportation Secretary Right. Those are the two Nazis.

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Speaker 1: Within six months he's absolute dictator of Germany. I find

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Speaker 1: it interesting and I do think This is a dog

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Speaker 1: whistle to every white nationalist and extremist, the American metric

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Speaker 1: for legislative achievement, which existed for about ninety years, going

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Speaker 1: back to FDRs one hundred days. The Claremont Institute Plan

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Speaker 1: is a six month plan to take down the American

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Speaker 1: government almost completely and to reorder it as being fundamentally

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Speaker 1: loyal to the leader, no questions asked, which is not

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Speaker 1: how the American government is organized. And so I don't

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Speaker 1: think any of that is accidental. But what always happens

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Speaker 1: any fascist movement, whether it exists in Argentina, Chile, Spain, wherever,

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Speaker 1: always for a time, whether it's with Franz von Poppin

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Speaker 1: in Germany, there will always be an alliance between the

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Speaker 1: fascists and the conservatives until the fascists swallow completely the conservatives,

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Speaker 1: either executing them, killing them, imprisoning them, or completely co

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Speaker 1: opting them into the movements. But those are the only

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Speaker 1: those are the only choices that are at hand. You

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Speaker 1: started talking about the next element of this, which is

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Speaker 1: the religious nationalist. There is an apocryphal quote they're attributed

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Speaker 1: to Upton Sinclair or Saint Clair Lewis that neither said

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Speaker 1: likely but it's that when fascism comes to America, it

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Speaker 1: will be carrying the flag. Excuse me to be carrying

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Speaker 1: across and wrapped in the flag. So we have a

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Speaker 1: fascist movement funded by billions of dollars, organized with millions

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Speaker 1: of people, under a cult of personality led by Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: that has been violent, has demonstrated hostility to elections, has

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Speaker 1: made a number of commitments and promises, including withdrawing the

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Speaker 1: United States from eighty years of global leadership, withdrawing United

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Speaker 1: States from the NATO security treaties, the defense treaties that

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Speaker 1: have kept the peace of the world, imprisoning political opponents,

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Speaker 1: setting up concentration camps for mass deportations, all of these

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Speaker 1: things promised. We have a rogue bust propaganda capability that

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Speaker 1: is worth many billions of dollars that has completely overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: with a few exceptions, the Democratic Party, the Biden White House,

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Speaker 1: the entirety of the civil organizations that exist in the

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Speaker 1: United States, to try to explain, explicate, teach, advance American values,

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Speaker 1: the spirit of the American Revolution, to steward the country,

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Speaker 1: to make it more perfect. On the journey to the

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Speaker 1: Mountaintop that King talks about completely overwhelmed it. We have that,

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Speaker 1: and then we have an element of religious nationalism emboldened

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Speaker 1: in the Trump era pastor paula full on extremist, grifters

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Speaker 1: of the highest conceivable level, who want power, who want control.

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Speaker 1: We have a Speaker of the House with no bank

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Speaker 1: account discernible whatsoever, grown adult second in line to the

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Speaker 1: presidency of the United States, and no exaggeration here, and

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Speaker 1: he has every right to believe this. But he believes

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Speaker 1: right that people in dinosaurs were walking around together six

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Speaker 1: thousand years ago, as an absolute does not believe in

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Speaker 1: the separation of church and state. You ask him, what

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Speaker 1: are your political positions? He points at a Bible and

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Speaker 1: he says it's in there. When those people combine with

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Speaker 1: the people at the Claremont Institute, now you have two elements.

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Speaker 1: You have two elements that hate democracy, hate liberty, hate freedom,

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Speaker 1: hate pluralism, don't believe in women's rights, don't believe in

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Speaker 1: human rights, don't believe in gay rights, who want power.

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Speaker 1: And everywhere in the world where these two groups have

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Speaker 1: ever come together, there has been chaos, violence and death.

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Speaker 1: How do you think about the danger here through an

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Speaker 1: American present?

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Speaker 3: I think the danger is real. And I think a

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Speaker 3: factor that intensifies all of this is the conspiracism and

435
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 3: disinformation that has really separated a sector of the population

436
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: from the facts. You know, the way I do a

437
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 3: lot of my research as an investigative reporter as I

438
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: go to right wing conferences and strategy meetings and gatherings,

439
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 3: and I've gone to a few gatherings called Reawaken America.

440
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: It's a traveling pro Trump conspiracist road show that typically

441
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: takes place in megachurches around the country. You right, Mike Flynn,

442
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: Clay Clark, usually one of the Trump sons shows up

443
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: to speak. There's a lot of art of you know, Trump,

444
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: Trump's face with eagles and crosses and Jesus is looking him,

445
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 3: things like that, and it sort of combines a radical

446
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: anti democracy with every imaginable conspiracy, the Great Replacement, One

447
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: World Government, JFK, you name it. That conspiracy is there.

448
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 3: And the conspiracy that appears to unite everyone is the

449
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 3: idea that the twenty twenty election was stolen. Trump is

450
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 3: one of the white hats fighting the black you know,

451
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: whatever they've got. You lose track of all the conspiracies.

452
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 3: But so when you separate a significant percentage of the

453
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 3: population from the facts, it really makes them easier control.

454
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 3: And that's how we can explain the fact that I

455
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 3: believe it's a most recent poll sets something like sixty

456
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: percent or more of Republican voters believe the twenty twenty

457
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: election was stolen, and a very significant number of Americans

458
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 3: believe that political violence can be justified in order to.

459
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 5: Restore the nation.

460
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: I do think that we are facing democracy is really

461
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 3: facing an existential threat. Now, you know. I think it's

462
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 3: natural for people to want to try them to make

463
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 3: themselves more comfortable and to tell themselves that, you know,

464
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 3: there's this pendulum that swung one way and it's gonna

465
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: magically swing in the other direction. And it's true that

466
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: our country is very large and dynamic. Trump did not

467
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: win the twenty twenty election. He was defeated. And if

468
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: we look at what happened in the last election cycle,

469
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 3: you know, you've got these far right groups like Moms

470
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: for Liberty, some of whom have ties to the Proud

471
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: Boys and echo a lot of this sort of Claremont

472
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: type talking points. Eighty percent of them were defeated in

473
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: spite of the money behind them. In spite of the

474
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 3: organization that they have were defeated in their local races.

475
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 3: So I do think a lot of people are sort

476
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: of cottoning onto this threat in our midst So I

477
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: am not you know, thinking, you know, yes, we are

478
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 3: facing an an existential threat, but I don't feel hopeless

479
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: as it were. But I do think that, you know, look,

480
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 3: for over five decades, very very very wealthy people have

481
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 3: invested in the infrastructure of the religious right and sort

482
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 3: of far right institutions. Many times they do it not

483
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: for religious reasons, but for economic reasons. They want to

484
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: consolidate their privilege. They want policies that you know, are

485
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: going to allow them to continue to if they're polluters

486
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 3: involved in fossil fuels, they want to be able to

487
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: continue to that kind of business. So they'll fund organizations

488
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 3: like the Heartland Institute, which get casts doubt on climate change.

489
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 3: They want to you know, it's often the same funders

490
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: that are funding groups like the Family Research Counsel or

491
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 3: Heritage Foundation, which are these sort of heritage contributed heavily

492
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: to Project twenty twenty five. They're also funding anti union activities.

493
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 3: And so here's a funny thing. I think that there

494
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 3: are all these resentments that appeal to people. People often

495
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: have a sense that, well, I'm not doing as well

496
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: as my dad or his dad, and I can't feed

497
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 3: my family with my paycheck like my dad and my

498
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: grand grandfather could, and our families are falling apart, and

499
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: they they don't, And the right wing is not there

500
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: to say, oh, look at this, let's deal with this

501
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 3: economic inequality. Let's you know, give you, like, make sure

502
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 3: you have jobs that pay a living wage and have

503
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: good healthcare and strong public schools that you feel confident

504
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: sending your kids to. In fact, they're trying to destroy workers' rights.

505
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 3: They're through organizations like the Freedom Foundation. They're trying to

506
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: destroy unions and and uh and and destroy certain kinds

507
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 3: of other policies that help the workforce. And instead they

508
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 3: give them these shiny bobbles, you know, wokeism. They give

509
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 3: them a sort of you know, abortion, It used to

510
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 3: be abortion, same sex marriage. Those issues have started pulling

511
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: so poorly for the right that they've flipped this sort

512
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: of the the T and LGBT right. They you know,

513
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: whatever you think of those issues, it becomes like a

514
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 3: shiny bobble for the right to distract people from there there. Frankly,

515
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 3: I think incredibly consequential economic policy that they're that they're pushing.

516
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: I would I would say, I would say two things

517
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: in response to that, which is that it's very important

518
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: to understand, right, the Nazis did not run on the Holocaust.

519
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: They did not run on genocide. They ran on family

520
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: values in the economy, right, All of that, All of

521
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: that came, All of that came later. You know, there

522
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: were long periods where transactionally, the Nazis would ramp up

523
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: the anti semitism, tone down the anti semitism, let it

524
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: off the chain. It was a tool of control. Ultimately,

525
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: what happened in Germany in nineteen thirty was Hitler's high

526
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: water mark, and when he didn't take power, there was

527
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: chaos in his society. There was violence between left and right,

528
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: and the answer to the chaos was to put the

529
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: chaos agents in charge. And basically, the proposition that Hitler

530
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: offered to the middle class, the army, the industrialists, and

531
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: all of those people who were looking at what happened

532
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: to their compatriots in Russia twenty years earlier, was a choice.

533
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: And the choice that they made was based on the

534
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 1: belief that ultimately the people that Hitler killed first, the

535
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: left and the communists and the descent, would have killed

536
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: them if.

537
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: They took power.

538
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: And so when you reduced politics to an existential threat

539
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: zero sum, the other side is illegitimate and out to

540
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: kill you. What you get is the choice that the

541
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: Germans got in nineteen thirty two, and that Americans, I

542
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: think have long had a certain arrogance about that could

543
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: never happen here, but instead should be open to the

544
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: possibility that it well could happen here. It might be

545
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: happening here. Here's what I want to ask you that

546
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 1: I feel like is a common overciation that no one

547
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: ever talks about because it's speculative in nature. There's a

548
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: study I'm reading about conspiracy theories that I came across

549
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: this reading, and it was it was basically and I

550
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: just started it, but it's fascinating. One of the findings

551
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: is essentially that the more likely you you believe, for example,

552
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: that Princess Diana was murdered, the more likely you are

553
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 1: to believe that Princess Diana is still alive.

554
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely, make say you by into one conspiracy, you've started

555
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 3: to separate yourself from rational deliberation from facts, and you're prediscibed.

556
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: What becomes what becomes true is what the leader says

557
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: is true, no matter how insanely contradictory. Which is why

558
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: I was always a really real, really big deal when

559
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: the first thing that Trump did was send his guy

560
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: out Spicer, to tell you that image A was in

561
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: fact not what you were staring at, right, that A

562
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: was bigger than B, when in fact it was smaller.

563
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: And so a lie of authority that makes you suspend

564
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: disbelief requires intellectual submission, is a powerful, powerful tool of

565
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: the autocrat. But here's the question that I have, which is,

566
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: when you go to these conferences, you're with these people,

567
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 1: and you talk to them, and you engage with them,

568
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: you have a drink with them.

569
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: At the bar.

570
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: Would they put me in a camp if they could,

571
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: because I disagree with them politically?

572
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 5: You personally?

573
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: Would they round up if they could with Mike Johnson

574
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: people who are not Christians for conversion?

575
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: If he could?

576
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: Would there would there be would there be wholesale suspensions

577
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: of civil liberties? Would they act on what our fear

578
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: is if they if they could, how do you assess that?

579
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 3: I think it's important to note that what the leaders

580
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 3: or the apparatics of the you know, I would say

581
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 3: the Christian Nationalist movement, people like Mike Johnson want is

582
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: not always the same thing that the rank and file want,

583
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: or the way the sort of leaders of the movement

584
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: would behave or what they'd go along with may not

585
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: be on the same order of what the rank and

586
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 3: file would go along with. So, you know, when you're

587
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 3: talking about the rank and file, you're talking about a

588
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 3: very wide range of people, different dispositions and interests, and

589
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 3: for a lot of them, their engagement, as say attendees

590
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 3: of a Reawaken America tour, it's really just making a

591
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 3: statement about who they are and what they value in themselves.

592
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 3: And you know, certainly if they've been you know, there

593
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 3: are people there who believe lots of people who believe that,

594
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 3: you know, people who have received vaccines, have been microchipped,

595
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 3: and they're told from the stage that one world government

596
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 3: is controlling them and trying to take away all their

597
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 3: money and everything they hold dear. And when people are

598
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 3: in that state of fear, it's really all about getting

599
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: them into a state of fear. And when you get

600
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: people into that state of irrational fear. You can get

601
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 3: them to do crazy things. But the leaders of the movement,

602
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 3: you know, look, they've been telling us what they want

603
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 3: for a very long time. They have told us they

604
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 3: despise our democracy. They want our laws to be based

605
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: if they're on the religious right side, they want our

606
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 3: laws to be based on the Bible they believe in

607
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 3: uh in a what is that?

608
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: But but here's the which I understand, right, And you know,

609
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: over my political career, you know that wing of the

610
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: Republican Party which was not particularly empowered in the campaigns, right,

611
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,959
Speaker 1: they were, you know, you had Ralph Reid out there,

612
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, all these but it was none of it

613
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 1: was ever on the level. Right they were, they were

614
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: they were hustlers, right, There's always been hustlers in American politics.

615
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get it something deeper, which is I'm

616
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: converting to Judaism. Right. I suppose Mike Johnson the way

617
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: he points that the Bible doesn't approve of Catholics either,

618
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: but if he objects it at to Jews, to Muslims,

619
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: to Hindus, right, I mean he's very very specific and clear.

620
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to get at is what does that mean? Right,

621
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: what does that world look like?

622
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: Right? What do you think? Right?

623
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,479
Speaker 1: If they could right the people at these conventions, never

624
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 1: mind unraveling gay marriage, right, would they lock up gay people?

625
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: Would they enforce the law?

626
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: Right?

627
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: How extreme are these people are? Or is it just

628
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: performative words?

629
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 2: Right?

630
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 5: Is it?

631
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: Or are they almost like actors in a great national

632
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: reality show who've staked out a sphere a place where

633
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: it could never happen?

634
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 5: Look?

635
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: Right, Johns who look at Handmade's tail? You know, does

636
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: Mike Johnson look at that?

637
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 5: He says?

638
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 2: That looks like a nice place to live?

639
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: I mean, That's what I'm trying to get at, Right,

640
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: is like, how seriously, when you when you look at

641
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 1: the rhetoric, then do you apply that to Okay, Like, okay,

642
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: I got it. I hear what you're saying. Well, if

643
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: you could wave a wand and make America into what

644
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: what would it look like? And I guess and it's

645
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: an unfair question because it's wholly speculative, But do you

646
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: have any concept of what the range of that is?

647
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 5: Yes? I do.

648
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, what they really want to do

649
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 3: is create an America where life, you know, the basic

650
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: facts operations of life your work, perhaps even where you live,

651
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: who you love, when to have a family, and and

652
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 3: how large like the most intimate decisions that couples can make,

653
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: maybe out of your control. They want a sort of

654
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 3: in group that gets to feel superior to those in

655
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 3: the outgroup. America could be a very uncomfortable place for

656
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 3: many of those on the outgroup. Listen, I mean, you

657
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 3: can live in Hungary, you can live in Russia, you

658
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 3: can live in Iran. There are these, We have plenty

659
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 3: of examples of more theocratic and autocratic forms of governance.

660
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 3: It's not like, you know, everyone automatically perishes, but life

661
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 3: is much more difficult. You can say goodbye to freedom

662
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 3: of speech, you can say goodbye to many of the

663
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 3: rights that you hold.

664
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 5: Dear.

665
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 3: Mike Johnson is very clear he wants to outlaw same

666
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: sex intimacy. He has blamed not just abortion, but birth control,

667
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 3: also on school He's blamed school shootings on abortion and

668
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 3: birth control. Definitely wants to take on certain forms of

669
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 3: birth control. He doesn't believe in the separation of church

670
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 3: and state. You know, doesn't believe in democracy. He's actually

671
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 3: if you've looked at some of his speeches, he has

672
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: decried democracy and said America isn't a democracy and shouldn't be,

673
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 3: and talks about how that just is, as are pro

674
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 3: slavery theologian John Henley Thornwell would have called it chaos

675
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: and communism.

676
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: So my question to that is, why can't anybody in

677
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: the country make an argument that pushes back on this?

678
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: People do? I mean many people do. There are a

679
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 3: lot of people in this country working on solutions. There

680
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: are so many people working on supporting the infrastructures of democracy,

681
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 3: voting rights. Trump is being prosecuted for his crimes.

682
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:00,760
Speaker 5: There.

683
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 3: Look at the voters and the last election. I mean,

684
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 3: we're really not dealing with the country where no one

685
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: is pushing back. I do have a problem with some

686
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 3: of the I think more people would really get active

687
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 3: if we would have a better news culture. I think

688
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 3: a lot of the folks who populate the political desks

689
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: at big news operations and take seats on major media panels,

690
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 3: they're telling us that America is increasingly partisan and this

691
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 3: is terrible. They're divided into tribes, and you know, they say,

692
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 3: it's just a matter of letting this, you know, free

693
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 3: speech do its magic. We can restore civility by opening

694
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 3: ourselves to the perspectives of others and just listening to them.

695
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 3: And the challenge is that this is not remotely about

696
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 3: free speech. That principle is all about promoting kind of

697
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 3: open discussion in society, in a society that wants to

698
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 3: be governed by reason, you know, people having rational deliberations

699
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 3: based on reason and shared facts. And this is a

700
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: movement that doesn't believe frankly in shared facts. Remember Mike

701
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 3: Johnson said, if you want to know my position on anything,

702
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 3: go read the Bible. Like that's sectarian, and it's his

703
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 3: reading of the Bible is highly sectarian. It's not the

704
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 3: same view of the Bible as many of the liberal

705
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 3: and moderate theologians and scholars and clergy Christian clergy that

706
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 3: say that, you know, religious nationalism is a heresy itself

707
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 3: and is antithetical to the Gospel.

708
00:54:51,080 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, everywhere on earth, whenever man, and it is

709
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: always man says I singularly can distill and interpret the

710
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: Word of God, and I will apply it to control you.

711
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: Those are the most evil places on earth, and millions

712
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: die every time, without exception and without question. And that

713
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: is a reality of this moment that we don't that

714
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: we don't talk enough that we don't talk enough about

715
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you one last thing. So, along

716
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: with these things, fascist movement, Claremont Institute, religious nationalism, they

717
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: are supported on a foundation of tremendous intellectual corruption.

718
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 2: That always.

719
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: Is attached to a tremendous amount of actual corruption, right,

720
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: which we see. And when you look at democracies, when

721
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: you when you look at an environment, I love going

722
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: to British Columbia every summer. The pristine natural environment. Right,

723
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: there's so much life everywhere you just you intuitively know

724
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: it's healthy. In a democracy, you can intuit its health

725
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: too by looking around, right, just like in the natural world.

726
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 1: If there's no birds, right, if there's no animals, if

727
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: there's no plants, right, there's something that's been poisoned. And

728
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: so in a democratic society, when it gets wobbly, right,

729
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: explosion of anti Semitism some right is going is going

730
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: to be a marker of that, And inability to tell

731
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: the truth is going to be a marker of that.

732
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: A billion dollar industry that makes money from algorithms that

733
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: divide as opposed to philosophies that unite is gonna is

734
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: going to be in this age a symptom of that

735
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: you are correct about the line holding and people are different,

736
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: right I I am. You know, by ethnicity, there's a

737
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: there's a term called black Irish and and and my

738
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: Irish descendants were black Irish. They were they were These

739
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: were not optimistic people apparently, right. So the so the

740
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: inherent kind of pessimism, right, like has carried it forward.

741
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: And I think it's elemental, you know, in part to

742
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:06,959
Speaker 1: foundationally to my small seed conservatism, right, which is which

743
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: is really foundationally not built on campaign ads, but on

744
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: on a philosophy of human nature, I mean skepticism.

745
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 4: Right.

746
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: I was talking to my friend James Carvill last week.

747
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: He goes, I'm seventy nine years old. He goes, each year,

748
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: my expectations of people go down. Right, So now I'm

749
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: never disappointed, right, And and you're kind of you're kind

750
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: of laughing.

751
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 4: Right.

752
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: That was the kind of the conservatism of sensibility, right,

753
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: a pessimism about human nature.

754
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: Right.

755
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan was such an effective politician at some level,

756
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: and that he was able to blend a sunny optimism

757
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: dispositionally against the political philosophy that's kind of the more

758
00:58:53,440 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 1: restrained one with regard to human nature, human thought. Look

759
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: at all of this right now, But I see Joe

760
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 1: Biden losing to Donald Trump in the polls. I viewed

761
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: the Trump choice as distinct as some of the other

762
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: lesser candidates who we're losing on issues. You know, that's

763
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: a personality election. But where are you on that one

764
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: to ten?

765
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: Oh? Shit? Right?

766
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: How to get out of the country? Right, Like, I

767
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: let's call that zero right to ten. We're happy days

768
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: are here again? Right, I'm not at a five. I'm

769
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: not at a middle point, right, I'm deeply, deeply, deeply concerned.

770
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 2: Right.

771
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: And I viewed this as part of an ongoing event

772
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: that's seven years in the making, that's worsening. Under the

773
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: philosophy of like the Titanic, which is the time between

774
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: the Titanic hitting the iceberg and going to the bottom

775
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: of the oceans about three hours. It's the last thirty

776
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: minutes where all the action takes place, right where all

777
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: the chaos happens, when Jack and Rose are hanging off

778
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: right the top of the ship, right when it's inverted

779
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: in the sea. Because before that, at the moment of

780
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: the hit, when the fate was sealed, there was very

781
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: little stirring about, but the consequences always catch up, which

782
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: again is just my view of human nature.

783
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: So what do you think as someone who.

784
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: Studies us, writes about this, reads about it, has a

785
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: certain level of detachment as an observer of it, in

786
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: a long time observer of it who can watch the

787
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: totality of the journey over time, it's rise. Where's this

788
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: all going? I give you the last word on that.

789
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 5: Uh, I don't make predictions.

790
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 3: I have been in a panic since two thousand and

791
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 3: nine when I started, when I recognized that the religious

792
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 3: right was taking over the courts. They had a really coherent,

793
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 3: incredibly well funded, incredibly strategic plan for how they were

794
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 3: going to destroy many of the principles upon which our

795
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 3: democracy depends. And I started writing about this phenomena. That

796
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 3: published my first book on the topic in twenty twelve,

797
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 3: my second, and twenty twenty I'm publishing my third and

798
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. So you know, I have been in

799
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 3: a panic since then. But I think that the reason

800
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 3: why I wrote these books is to offer a roadmap. Listen,

801
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 3: as one of the sort of religious right ladies who

802
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 3: is you know, very you know, had a leadership position

803
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 3: is trying to take over you know, public education tank it,

804
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 3: you know, and get have all the religious schools funded

805
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 3: with public money. She said, Look, someone's values in the

806
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 3: end are going to dominate, you know. And I wrote

807
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 3: these books to show how they've been able to notch

808
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 3: these successes.

809
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 5: And I think that.

810
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 3: There are frankly more Americans who reject these types of

811
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 3: domination and conquest politics the destruction of our democracy than

812
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 3: those who support that. And I just think if if

813
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 3: we those of us who treasure our democracy, treasure of

814
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 3: the institutions of value that have served us for such

815
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: a long time, if we can just get our heck

816
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 3: together and become activated, then there is hope. And the

817
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 3: hope is also just in the struggle itself and taking

818
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 3: action to try to preserve our democracy. And so that's

819
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 3: where I'm that's where I'm leaving it.

820
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: Well, I would say that's a perfect place too. That's

821
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: a perfect place to end it. And it really frames

822
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: the great question at hand, because you are indisputably right

823
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: about the most important thing, which is a majority of us,

824
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: and by us I mean Americans of all races, creeds,

825
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: and religions do not want any of this. The question

826
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: is there a majority of extremists combined with the indifferent

827
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: that can exceed and create a plurality that could elect

828
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: the proper amalgamation of dysfunctional, toxic, cynical and extremist people

829
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: where it all goes down. And the answer to that

830
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: question is not a theoretical one. The answer to that

831
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: question is yes, that could happen, but it will not

832
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: be on the basis of a loss on the concepts

833
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about. It will be a coalition between the

834
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: indifferent extremists regarding the most impoorant idea in all of

835
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: human history, which are the animating ideas of the United

836
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 1: States of America, that, after all these many years, have

837
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 1: come to be understood as applying to all of us,

838
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 1: regardless of our gender, our racial identity, heritage, creed, or

839
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: any other consideration, that we are all as Americans, created,

840
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: equally dowed by a creator was above our comprehension and

841
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: beyond the realm of the state to tell us anything

842
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 1: about equally endowed with rights to life, liberty in the

843
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: pursuit of happiness. It's a profound achievement worth defending, and

844
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: it's been great to be able to spend time with

845
01:05:55,120 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: Catherine Stewart, the investigative journalist and author who is writing

846
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: her third book. Encourage you to get all of them

847
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: to help make you smarter about this dangerous moment in

848
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: the life of the Republic.

849
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 2: Thank you, Catherine, Thank you