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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional.

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Speaker 2: Hey, y'all, thanks.

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Speaker 1: So much for joining me for session three fifty six

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Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right

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Speaker 1: into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm doctor uj Blackstock and I'm on the Therapy for

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Speaker 3: Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking the historical

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Speaker 3: relationship between black people and hospitals.

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Speaker 1: It's no secret that the relationship between black people and

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Speaker 1: the healthcare system is a fraught one, and as medical

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Speaker 1: racism continues to go unaddressed, we're seeing more and more

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Speaker 1: negative health outcomes for black patients, including the perpetuation of

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Speaker 1: harmful conspiracy theories, and hesitance to seek medical help when

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Speaker 1: in need. Joining me today to talk about the history

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Speaker 1: and statistics behind some of these outcomes is health advocate

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Speaker 1: and New York Times bestselling author doctor U. J.

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Speaker 2: Blackstock.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Blackstock is the founder and CEO of Advancing Health Equity,

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Speaker 1: an organization created with the mission of partnering with healthcare

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Speaker 1: organizations to dismantle racism and healthcare and to close the

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Speaker 1: gap and racial health inequities. During our conversation, we discuss

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Speaker 1: some of the most prevalent examples of hospital neglect experienced

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Speaker 1: by black patients, how healthcare systems can better engage with

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Speaker 1: black communities in order to engender trust, and how black

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Speaker 1: medical students can find support while studying to become physicians.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TPG

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Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the Sister Circle

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Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today, Doctor blacksc

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: For having me. I'm so excited to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: He is a pleasure to see you again.

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Speaker 3: You too, it's been a little while.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, it's essence best, right, we're rolling up on Essence

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Speaker 1: time again this year.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So you are a highly accomplished author, New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestselling author, a physician, and a health equity advocate. But

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Speaker 1: I want you to take us back to your time

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Speaker 1: at Harvard as a medical student. Can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what that experience was like in a

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Speaker 1: field that is predominantly not made up of us.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because I should also reflect on how I

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Speaker 3: grew up. I grew up thinking that most physicians were

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Speaker 3: black because my mother was a physician, my pediatrician was

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Speaker 3: a black woman. All of the physicians I was surrounded

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Speaker 3: by growing up were black, and a lot of them

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Speaker 3: were black women. So it really wasn't until I got

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Speaker 3: older and to medical school that I realized how few

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Speaker 3: of us there were and that environment. I would say

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Speaker 3: it was striking in a way for me because our

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Speaker 3: numbers were so small. But with in my class there

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Speaker 3: were a decent number of black students. But when I

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Speaker 3: think back on my experience during medical school, there was

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Speaker 3: so much that we didn't learn about, right, like We

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Speaker 3: never talked about racial health inequities. There is this Western

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Speaker 3: biomedical model of how medicine is taught that it's all

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Speaker 3: about the physician and the patient without really recognizing all

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Speaker 3: of the systemic factors that impact health. And that was

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Speaker 3: something that I did not learn in medical school that

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Speaker 3: I had to learn during my residency in emergency medicine

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Speaker 3: when I was working at a public hospital in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 3: and afterwards as a practicing physician. So there was so

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Speaker 3: much that I didn't learn. There were so many things

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Speaker 3: that were implicitly taught about differences between black patients and

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Speaker 3: other patients, like that there were differences in kidney function

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Speaker 3: right between their normal values for black patients and normal

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Speaker 3: values for non black patients, but we were never really

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Speaker 3: told why got it?

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Speaker 2: Imagine that as you continued in your career.

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Speaker 1: I know you started out in academic medicine, right, and

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Speaker 1: so was a part of you wanting to go into

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Speaker 1: practicing medicine in that way spurred by learning.

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Speaker 2: All these things that you wanted to then make right

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Speaker 2: for students.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it was

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Speaker 3: having a mother who was a physician, seeing all the

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Speaker 3: work she was doing in our community with other black

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Speaker 3: physicians and seeing her. I read about this in my

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Speaker 3: book about seeing her, how she interacted with her patients,

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Speaker 3: really understanding the full context social political in which they

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Speaker 3: were living, and understanding that when her patients saw her

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Speaker 3: wasn't just about what was happening in that room, in

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Speaker 3: that exam room, that it was really more about what

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Speaker 3: was happening in their lives and their communities at work,

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Speaker 3: that all of that impacts health. So when I went

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Speaker 3: to medical school and after medical school, I always knew

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Speaker 3: that I wanted to work in service to our community.

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Speaker 3: And that's when I became really aware of the racial

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Speaker 3: health inequities that we have in our community as relates

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Speaker 3: to Black maternal mortality, life expectancy, how we're more often

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Speaker 3: to carry the burden of chronic disease. And what I

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Speaker 3: recognized also was that this was very little about the

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Speaker 3: individual choices that we were making as black people, and

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Speaker 3: more so had to do with the fact that there

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Speaker 3: are systems and practices and policies in place related to

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Speaker 3: racism that impact our health and getting really clear about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So talk to us a little bit more about legacy.

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Speaker 1: So Legacy is your book. Legacy a black physician reckons

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Speaker 1: with racism in medicine. So you shared a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the fact that you wrote about your mom and

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Speaker 1: her journey as a physician. But what else might we

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Speaker 1: be able to expect as a part of legacy.

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Speaker 3: Well, legacy it has a double meaning, right, so as

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Speaker 3: you allude to about being a second generation black woman physician,

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Speaker 3: which is something that unfortunately today in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: is still so rare, Like the fact that my twin

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Speaker 3: sister Onie and I and our mom were the first

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Speaker 3: black mother Daughter legacy graduates from Harvard Medical School, and

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Speaker 3: that was two thousand and five when Oni and I

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Speaker 3: graduate waited. Since then, there's only been one other Black

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Speaker 3: mother Daughter Legacy graduate, So that speaks to the work

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Speaker 3: that these institutions have to do, like that is not acceptable, right. Also,

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Speaker 3: just celebrating the journey and the work that my mother

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Speaker 3: did in her short life. She died at forty seven

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Speaker 3: from acute milogenous leukemia, and there was so much more

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Speaker 3: that she could have done because she was doing health

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Speaker 3: equity work at a time when we weren't even using

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Speaker 3: that expression, right, she was doing work on behalf of

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Speaker 3: the community, organizing community health fairs and working with her

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Speaker 3: colleagues to make things better for residents and neighbors. But

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Speaker 3: the other legacy piece is this history of medical racism.

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Speaker 3: That the reason why in twenty twenty four that we're

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Speaker 3: seeing these health and equities, especially in black communities, and

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Speaker 3: the reason why they actually are worstening, is because of

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Speaker 3: a deeply rooted history of racism, not only in medicine,

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Speaker 3: but in all other aspects of society that negatively impact

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Speaker 3: Black health. So I wanted to be able to use

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Speaker 3: this book to help connect the dots for a broad audience,

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Speaker 3: not just people even in medicine, not it's just people

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Speaker 3: in healthcare, but for the general public to understand the history,

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Speaker 3: to understand the current day, and to understand why we're

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Speaker 3: seeing these appalling statistics, and then ending the book with

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Speaker 3: a call to action for different groups about how you

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Speaker 3: can make a difference. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I want to spend some times a day, doctor

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Speaker 1: Black sat talking more about hospital neglect.

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Speaker 2: And I wondered if you could talk.

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Speaker 1: With us about some of the most prevalent examples of

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Speaker 1: hospital neglect you have seen for Black patients.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there's so many in so

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Speaker 3: many different ways. I think one of the main areas

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Speaker 3: is how when black patients go to seek care, often

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Speaker 3: our concerns are dismiss minimized, and ignored. Happens more often

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Speaker 3: for black women, and we're seeing that contributes to some

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Speaker 3: of the poor outcomes, especially for black birthing people, that

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Speaker 3: when they are presenting with saying I'm having bleeding or

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Speaker 3: I'm not feeling like myself or I'm having swelling in

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Speaker 3: my legs, health professionals are not listening to them. Another

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Speaker 3: area is around pain and how pain is treated and

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Speaker 3: not treated, how it's undertreated specifically. But we know and

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Speaker 3: we have studies that show that even in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: there was a study of medical students and residents that

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Speaker 3: showed that some of them believed in these false myths

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Speaker 3: about differences between black patients and other patients that we

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Speaker 3: had thicker skin were less sensitive to pain, and because

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Speaker 3: of that, this study actually showed that it was a

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Speaker 3: mock case between a black patient and a white patient,

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Speaker 3: but showed that those students and residents were less likely

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Speaker 3: to treat the black patient's pain than the white patient's pain,

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Speaker 3: even though everything was similar except the race of the patients.

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Speaker 3: What we have in our healthcare system, our health professionals

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Speaker 3: who they think that they are providing equitable care, They

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Speaker 3: think that they're doing their best, but the fact is

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Speaker 3: that they are just like every other American. They're absorbing

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Speaker 3: all this cultural messaging that's anti black, anti black women,

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Speaker 3: that actually impacts how they make decisions about care.

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Speaker 1: So I want to doctor black Clack, if you can

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what is the treatment for this?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about medical school curriculum

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Speaker 1: and what kinds of things is the field aware of

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Speaker 1: this outside of you and the other physicians who are

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Speaker 1: preaching on the hiel about this, Is the field aware

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Speaker 1: of this and what kinds of things are being done

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Speaker 1: to combat some of these misconceptions?

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Speaker 3: I mean, yes, they are very much aware of this.

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Speaker 3: Are they doing the work that needs to be done,

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Speaker 3: the deep work. That's one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 3: wrote Legacy, because I don't think they are doing enough.

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Speaker 3: Some of these issues are just so deeply rooted in

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Speaker 3: our medical education system, like there's just been a gap

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Speaker 3: in what we've been learning. But I also want to

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Speaker 3: say that a lot of this has to stick or

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Speaker 3: even before medical school, because we can't have pre med

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Speaker 3: students coming into medical school already holding these biases in

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Speaker 3: their heads. Right. So that's why it's so important, even

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Speaker 3: starting as early as possible in our educational system, that

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Speaker 3: we are making future health professionals aware of what the

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Speaker 3: history is, aware of what the current day situation is

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Speaker 3: for black patients that are interfacing with the healthcare system.

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Speaker 3: So yes, medical schools need to do their part, and

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Speaker 3: what the part is making sure they're teaching about one,

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Speaker 3: medical racism, the history of it, but also teaching about

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Speaker 3: what are the experiences of black patients today in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four when they seek health care right, and what

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Speaker 3: is the responsibility and the obligation of health professionals when

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Speaker 3: they're caring for black patients, And that one it's so

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Speaker 3: simple as to say, like, truly listen to them, truly

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Speaker 3: listen to us, and understand that we are also human,

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Speaker 3: we also feel pain, we also suffer right, but also

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Speaker 3: understanding the context in which we live in this country,

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Speaker 3: that there's so many things that actually the outside of healthcare,

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Speaker 3: in terms of education, housing, employment, that also impact our health.

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Speaker 3: So I think that medical schools have an obligation to

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Speaker 3: educate future physicians to understand the experiences of their black

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Speaker 3: patients and to respond to those experiences and to care

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Speaker 3: for us in a holistic way. And so medical schools

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Speaker 3: have a lot of work to do because they're not

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Speaker 3: doing their work, and a lot of it is because

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Speaker 3: of the current political environment that we're in. We know

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Speaker 3: that there's that act that was brought forth recently, a

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Speaker 3: federal bill called the Educate Act that is to defund

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Speaker 3: medical schools that have diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. And

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Speaker 3: how could that be that in twenty twenty four, when

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Speaker 3: we're seeing the actually worsening of racial health and equities,

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Speaker 3: that these sort of legislative bills are brought forward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it really all is just like a

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Speaker 1: microcosm for everything we are seeing in every other area

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Speaker 1: of our lives. Because you've already alluded to, and you

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Speaker 1: wrote about in the book that less than two percent

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Speaker 1: of physicians are actually black women, right, and so when

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Speaker 1: you already talked about these institutions needing to do a

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Speaker 1: better job of bringing in people, but also when the

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Speaker 1: students are there, We've had conversations on the podcast about

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Speaker 1: the treatment that sometimes happens when black women are in

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Speaker 1: medical school and even the treatment of faculty, like how

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Speaker 1: many faculty are pushed out or leave for their own

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Speaker 1: sanity or health. Right, So it feels really difficult to

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Speaker 1: figure out, like how you break into and make some

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Speaker 1: differences in this kind of system when it does feel

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Speaker 1: like the system is largely just miserable and built to

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Speaker 1: work against us.

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Speaker 3: Now absolutely, and I write in the book about my

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Speaker 3: students that I work with and that A mentored, who

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Speaker 3: had their own experiences where they were just in medical

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Speaker 3: school to learn how to be a doctor, but instead

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Speaker 3: they had to focus on these DII efforts because the

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Speaker 3: school wasn't doing enough, and so when they should have

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Speaker 3: been focusing on their work, they had to do all

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Speaker 3: the heavy lifting, right, and then they have to deal

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Speaker 3: with microaggressions and they have to deal with as we know,

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Speaker 3: the data shows how black students are evaluated differently than

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Speaker 3: other students. The words used to describe us in our

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Speaker 3: evaluations are different.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So it's like you said, even once we get into

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Speaker 3: these environments, right, getting into medical schools was just part

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Speaker 3: of it. Then once you're in medical school, were often

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Speaker 3: environments that are not supportive and hospitable to us. So

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Speaker 3: it's again, at every step of the way, there are

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Speaker 3: these barriers and challenges, right and even as a faculty,

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Speaker 3: I write about how I was in academic medicine for

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Speaker 3: ten years. I thought that was going to be my future.

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Speaker 3: Got appointed to a DEI role in our Office of

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Speaker 3: Diversity Affairs and really got to see what the institution

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Speaker 3: was about, and they were not about supporting me. So

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Speaker 3: I had to make very difficult decision. I call it

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Speaker 3: a life saving decision actually because when I look back,

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Speaker 3: I was very unhappy. But also I say I had

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Speaker 3: forgotten I was someone that had gifts to share, because

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Speaker 3: often when we black women are in these predominantly white environments,

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Speaker 3: they undervalue us and underappreciate us so much that we

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Speaker 3: lose sight of what we have to offer. So leaving

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Speaker 3: that environment for me, even though I say, I was

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Speaker 3: very very scared, because people don't leave academic medicine. It's

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Speaker 3: very secure. I mean, I had multiple roles, multiple titles.

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Speaker 3: People would have looked at me and thought I was happy,

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Speaker 3: but I was actually miserable. And so like I say,

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Speaker 3: I made that life saving decision because I was not

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Speaker 3: thriving in that environment. When I look back at pictures

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Speaker 3: that I took during that time, I'd lost a lot

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Speaker 3: of weight. I wasn't sleeping at circles under my eyes.

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Speaker 3: You know how you can look back at old pictures

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Speaker 3: and be like, oh, that was not a good time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of times as black women were forced

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Speaker 3: into these situations where we have to make these tough

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Speaker 3: decisions where like do we stay do we leave? I

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Speaker 3: left financial security, but I also left an environment that

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Speaker 3: was psychologically violent to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first, a

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Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.

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Speaker 4: When you should on yourself, you literally put the shoulds

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Speaker 4: on you and you are judging. So a should signals

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Speaker 4: judgment the minute you use it in your vocabulary. I

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Speaker 4: should mother this way. I should get married at twenty

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Speaker 4: six because that's what women do. I should have a baby.

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Speaker 4: I should pursue this career path because this is what

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Speaker 4: I went to school for. And it doesn't matter if

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Speaker 4: I really like art. I should be a lawyer because

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Speaker 4: that's what I got my degree in.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if you can talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about what kinds of things helped you to make

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Speaker 1: that kind of decision. Because I would imagine many of

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Speaker 1: the people who are listening to our conversation now may

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Speaker 1: find themselves in a similar situation right and not sure,

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Speaker 1: like how do I take this leap? Or I know

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Speaker 1: this isn't healthy for me, but I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: to do. Can you share a little bit about your process?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I always say I consulted with my village.

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Speaker 3: I have a wonderful therapist that I've been working with

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Speaker 3: for the last five years, and she has seen me

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Speaker 3: through some very very difficult times. But just working with her,

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Speaker 3: I feel like gave me permission to deviate off of

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Speaker 3: that path that I thought I had to take. Especially

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Speaker 3: in medicine, many of us are like, Okay, we're like

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Speaker 3: checking off boxes. I talk about right pre med check,

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Speaker 3: medical school, residency check, faculty position or job check right.

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Speaker 3: And I realized I was just like going through the

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Speaker 3: motions and not really thinking at each step. It's just

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Speaker 3: really what you want to do, Chay. So working with

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Speaker 3: my therapist, Shinikua. She doesn't mind me saying her name,

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Speaker 3: but working with her really helped me through those very tough,

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Speaker 3: tough moments. When I look back, I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 3: even know how I got through it, but I know

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Speaker 3: it was because of our bi weekly sessions where I

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Speaker 3: was given permission to think bigger. I was reminded that

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Speaker 3: I was someone that had gifts to share. And it's

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Speaker 3: interesting when my book came out a few months ago,

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Speaker 3: she sent me flowers and with a note and she said,

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Speaker 3: I've always seen the magic in you, and so you

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Speaker 3: just need those kind of people in your life. Of course,

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Speaker 3: I have my twin sister, Onni, who was there every

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Speaker 3: day supporting me. I would call her crying. And then

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Speaker 3: my girlfriends. I talked to them. Many of them maybe

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Speaker 3: they were not in the same position as I was,

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Speaker 3: but they saw how upsetting it was for me and

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Speaker 3: encouraged me and said, you don't need to have an

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Speaker 3: institutional affiliation. You don't need all the things that you

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Speaker 3: think you're supposed to have to feel important, like you

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Speaker 3: are enough on your own. And that was definitely a

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Speaker 3: process that I had to internalize that knowing that I

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Speaker 3: did not need to be affiliated with NYU, I didn't

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Speaker 3: need to be associate professor to know that I still

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Speaker 3: can make an impact. And actually, what I recognized was listen.

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Speaker 3: Once I left that environment that was so incredibly stifling

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Speaker 3: to me. It was just abundance flowed opportunities that I

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Speaker 3: never thought would open up for me, opened up, doors opened.

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Speaker 3: So if you had told me five years ago I

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Speaker 3: would be where I am today, I would have been like, really, no,

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Speaker 3: I don't think so, but truly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate hearing about that because I think, again, many people,

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Speaker 1: when we're checking off these boxes, we're just following what

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Speaker 1: we think we're supposed to do and don't ever really

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Speaker 1: check in with ourselves about whether this is.

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Speaker 2: Something that feels right for me.

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Speaker 1: You've already shared so much about like all of the

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Speaker 1: racism and all the other isms that impact the care

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Speaker 1: that black people get as a part of the medical institution,

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Speaker 1: And I think an unfortunate byproduct of that is that

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Speaker 1: there is often a lot of conspiracy theory, a lot

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Speaker 1: of misinformation and disinformation that continues to be perpetuated in

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Speaker 1: the black community related to medicine. I mean we saw

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Speaker 1: that of course most recently related to the vaccine, and

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Speaker 1: just warranted concern about like whether this is something that

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Speaker 1: is going to be good for us. So can you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about like how that kind of

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Speaker 1: system continues to perpetuate given what we know about medical institutions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting because that misinformation or disinformation. I get

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Speaker 3: it in a way because I talk about how healthcare institutions,

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Speaker 3: all different societal institutions, have proven themselves untrustworthy to black

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Speaker 3: people for a very long time. Right, So, like I

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Speaker 3: think about, how can you expect us, when there is

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Speaker 3: a pandemic out of the blue, to then be like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna get vaccinated when we have this not only

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Speaker 3: the history but the current da mious treatment of black

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Speaker 3: people in healthcare settings. And so that's why I think

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Speaker 3: is so important one that we have black health professionals

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Speaker 3: who are out there speaking up using our platforms. And

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Speaker 3: that's why for me it was so important. I never

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Speaker 3: thought I would do like health communications or media work,

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Speaker 3: but I saw that when the pandemic started, given all

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Speaker 3: the misinformation that was out there, even from the presidential administration,

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Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, we got to get out there.

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Speaker 3: Black folks who are in health, we got to get

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Speaker 3: out there to make sure that our communities have the

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Speaker 3: information they need to make an informed decision. Like no

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Speaker 3: one's trying to force anything on anyone I just want

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Speaker 3: to make sure that we have the information to make

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Speaker 3: an informed decision, and I think that is critical. The

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Speaker 3: other thing I think is it's a reminder of when

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Speaker 3: healthcare institutions don't center or have not centered Black communities,

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Speaker 3: that you don't engender trust. Right. I talk about in

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Speaker 3: the book how even my barber, I store my hair

400
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Speaker 3: really short in my twenties. My barber and I still

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Speaker 3: see him all the time in my neighborhood. We stop

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Speaker 3: and talk. But he reached out to me about a

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Speaker 3: year after the vaccine came out and said, I really

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Speaker 3: want to talk to you because I don't have insurance,

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Speaker 3: I don't have a primary care doctor. You're the only

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Speaker 3: doctor I know, and you're the only.

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Speaker 2: Doctor I trust.

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Speaker 3: A year after and we talked like for an hour

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Speaker 3: on the phone with his adult daughter, who also had

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Speaker 3: not been vaccinated yet. He asked me the most thoughtful questions,

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Speaker 3: and one thing he said to me is like, I

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Speaker 3: know that there are other folks like doctor Anthony Fauci

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Speaker 3: on television saying I should take this vaccine, but I

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Speaker 3: don't trust him. I don't know who he is. He is,

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Speaker 3: and I trust you. So that's why I think It

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Speaker 3: is so, so so important that the investments in our

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Speaker 3: community happen in terms of creating a strong relationship between

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Speaker 3: the healthcare system and our community. It should be ongoing

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Speaker 3: because we saw what happens when it's not ongoing, and

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Speaker 3: that kind of environment allows that misinformation and disinformation to spread,

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Speaker 3: where people tell me, oh, my hairdresser or my barber

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Speaker 3: told me that the vaccine doesn't work, or just like

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Speaker 3: inaccurate information, people were listening to people who were not

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Speaker 3: even in healthcare.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, getting information from all kinds.

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Speaker 3: Of places I know, or like you know, social media

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Speaker 3: or somewhat's app thread, and that is dangerous.

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Speaker 1: It's dangerous. We also know that there's also a large

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Speaker 1: focus I think again rightfully so on like more natural

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Speaker 1: kinds of ways to take care of ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Can you speak to how.

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Speaker 1: We can kind of vet information about the people orn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily wanting to sign up for like more traditional kinds

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Speaker 1: of medicine. What kinds of things can we do to

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Speaker 1: kind of vet sources into really integrate maybe more natural

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Speaker 1: ways of healing into our practices. Oh?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think that's such an important question because again,

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Speaker 3: my training is from the western biomedical model, traditional right,

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Speaker 3: and we know that there are other ways that people

440
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 3: can care for themselves in a more holistic way. But yes,

441
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 3: making sure the source of the information is important. So

442
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 3: I always say, just to make sure that people are

443
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: vetting the source, looking at the background of this person,

444
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: What kind of experience, what kind of training.

445
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: Do they have?

446
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: Do other people who are responsible trusted messengers? Do they

447
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: follow these people? Are they people who others can co

448
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 3: sign on that what they're saying is accurate information? So

449
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter how many followers someone has, but maybe

450
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 3: reading up on them, reading up on their background, I

451
00:24:58,359 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 3: think could be helpful.

452
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: Can you share some of your favorite websites or podcasts

453
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: or other kinds of things where you send people for

454
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: like trusted information.

455
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting.

456
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 3: I feel like I sent them to myself and I'm kidding.

457
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 3: I'm kidding, but no, I feel like there are a

458
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: lot of black health influencers in different specialties that I

459
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 3: can co sign because I know them personally, like doctor

460
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: Heather or Abunda who is an obstetric gynecologist, or doctor

461
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: Camilla Phillips, who I've known since I was very very

462
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 3: young person. I also think that we have to remember

463
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 3: that groups like the National Medical Association, the largest and

464
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: oldest organization of black physicians. They have a lot of

465
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: great resources on their website. Health in her Hue also,

466
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 3: which is a startup that was founded by doctor Ashley Wisdom,

467
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: has a directory of health professionals that are trained to

468
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: care for black women and women of color. But they

469
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 3: also have a lot of educational content on their website

470
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: people can use that it has been vetted thoroughly. And

471
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: then for people who are interested in maternal health issues,

472
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 3: there's an app called the Earth app Irt started by

473
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: a black woman also that has a lot of information,

474
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 3: really accurate information about the birthing process and also has

475
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: a provider directory too.

476
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing it.

477
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, doctor Blacksack, I

478
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: wonder if you could say more about how our mistrust

479
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: and distrust of medical institutions and hospitals really impacts health

480
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: outcomes for black people.

481
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's like the other impact, right, So when

482
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 3: we have a very high burden of unmet needs in

483
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: our communities, because when people don't trust the healthcare system

484
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: and they're not feeling well, they end up not pursuing

485
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 3: care or not seeking care. So what happens is they're

486
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: having symptoms, whether it's lightheadedness, chest pain, whatever it may be,

487
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: it ends up progressing. So by the time they do

488
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: seek treatment, they are sicker than they would have been.

489
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 3: They may have more advanced cancer, they may have uncontrolled

490
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 3: high blood pressure or diabetes that lead to more complications, harm,

491
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 3: and even death. So that's why I think it's so

492
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 3: important that the way that we frame this sort of

493
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 3: mistrust and distrust for health care that is actually ends

494
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 3: up being very, very harmful for us. But again, it's

495
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: up to the institutions to center our communities, center our voices,

496
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: our priorities and needs, and to do that in gendering

497
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: the trust process that is so so important.

498
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: We've talked about this a little bit, but I love

499
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: to hear more of your thoughts. One of the I

500
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: think most awful outcomes of everything that happened with the

501
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: pandemic was a loss of trust for institutions that I

502
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: think largely had been credible and specifically, I'm thinking about

503
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: the Centers for Disease Control, right, like the CDC. I

504
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: had always thought the CDC like, okay, this is like

505
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: the goal star of information if anything, happens like they're

506
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: going to have the right information, They're going to like

507
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: steer us, right. But I think in the pandemic we

508
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: largely saw and I think political reasons were behind this,

509
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: but that we could not even trust I think some

510
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 1: of the information coming from the CDC. So what is

511
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: the work that institutions like the CDC need to do

512
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: to regain the public's trust so that we can't have

513
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: a public health field again?

514
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: Right?

515
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: It's so interesting because the CDC is a predominantly white

516
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 3: institution and it has the same issues internally right in

517
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: terms of representation of black folks, in terms of prioritizing

518
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: health equity as every other organization, so they are not

519
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: immune to that. I think that the pandemic showed us

520
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 3: that there is so much self reflection and inner work

521
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: that the CDC needs to do. And what does that

522
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: look like. That looks like engaging with communities, that looks

523
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: like hiring, retaining, promoting black public health professionals, that looks

524
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: like prioritizing what ideal health equity looks like. And there's

525
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: so many opportunities for them to partner with black led

526
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: organizations that are already embedded in the community. Right. I

527
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: think that is how they can engender trust, like investing

528
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: resources funding into organizations. Because there's so many organizations out

529
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: there that are already doing the work, how can we.

530
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: Lift up their work?

531
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: And I think the CDC needs to think about what

532
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: kind of partnerships can they do with community based organizations

533
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 3: that are already doing the work, that already have relationships

534
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 3: with community members and not reinvent the wheel.

535
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: So in the meantime, why we are waiting for these

536
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: systems to change? We know that means that there is

537
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: a lot of work that needs to be on the

538
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: individual right in terms of advocating for themselves and doing

539
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: all these things. What suggestions would you have for people

540
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: about how they can advocate for themselves within the medical system.

541
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 3: I know, And it's interesting because that question I'm always like, Ah,

542
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: it's the system, as you alluded to, it's a system,

543
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: like it shouldn't be on us to feel like we're

544
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: going to war when we are seeking care, when we

545
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: are at our most vulnerable, at our weakest in discomfort

546
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: and pain. Right, But a few things. So, I don't

547
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: know if you saw this recently, there was a viral,

548
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: but I think it on social media of a white

549
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: male physician who said he's like, I want to know

550
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: why when I go into the room to see black patients,

551
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: they usually have someone on FaceTime.

552
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: Hello.

553
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 3: It's because they don't trust you and they need someone

554
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: else there, like for surveillance. So I say, bring someone

555
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: with you to your appointments, a loved one, a family member,

556
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: your best friend, someone who can help support you, whether

557
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: it be just to ensure that you are getting respectful,

558
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: dignified care, or someone who can make sure that you're

559
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: asking all the questions that you need to ask. I

560
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 3: also think it's important for people to go into the

561
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: healthcare settings prepared, So take notes on what your symptoms

562
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: have been like, the duration of your symptoms, the quality

563
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 3: of your symptoms, what has worked, what hasn't worked. Make

564
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: sure to have notes because a lot of times when

565
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: we get in front of a health professional, we get nervous,

566
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: anxious also for not feeling well. We may not be

567
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: able to share all the details. Making sure that you

568
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 3: ask a health professional, what do you think is going on?

569
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: What is your plan for me? What is my follow up?

570
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 3: What are red flags I should look out for it

571
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 3: where I would come back or go to the emergency

572
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: department making sure that you have answers to those questions.

573
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: And then I think that I always say, and this

574
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: is more difficult obviously in emergency medicine settings, but if

575
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: you feel like your health professional is not listening to you,

576
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 3: minimizing your complaints, get a second opinion, get a third opinion.

577
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: Right.

578
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: The other thing is I think that we have our

579
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: informal circles, our friends. I do it even as a physician.

580
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: I asked my girls my village, who do you see

581
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: for this? Who's your dermatologist, who's your obgyn?

582
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: Right?

583
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 3: Because these are people that we already know, have been

584
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 3: vetted and we know will give us good care. But

585
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: like I mentioned, there are provider directories out there. National

586
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: Medical Association has them. Health in her Hue has one

587
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: specifically for black women and women of color. We are

588
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: creating the solutions right to make sure that we are

589
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: receiving respectful and equitable care.

590
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: And are there specific questions that we can ask providers

591
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: that can help us to vit whether they are culturally

592
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: competent or culturally responsive.

593
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 3: I think that is more challenging. But I think maybe

594
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 3: when you go see someone, you can ask them what

595
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: is your patient population, like even looking but like where

596
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 3: did they train, where do they go to medical school?

597
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: What kind of settings have they been practicing in, a

598
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: lot of that you can actually find out online. I

599
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: would look at even physician reviews, even though sometimes people

600
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: may go in there and it may not be accurate

601
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: in terms of what folks are saying, But definitely looking

602
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: up physical reviews and seeing what people are saying about

603
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: them because that can be very helpful as well.

604
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: Nowc of Black PEC, I wonder what kind of message

605
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: or charge would you give to either current medical students

606
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: or future medical students about how they can continue to

607
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: advance this work even if it is not being taught

608
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: as a part of their formal curriculum.

609
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: Yes, it's interesting because I actually gave a keynote talk

610
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: the week before last the Student National Medical Association, which

611
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: is the largest organization for black pre medical and medical students.

612
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: One I wanted to remind them that it's a hard

613
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: road to becoming a physician, especially in these predominantly white institutions,

614
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: that they really have to be clear on what their purposes,

615
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 3: what their values are, always stay in alignment, but also

616
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 3: gather your village around you find the people, other students

617
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 3: that you can trust, find the faculty that are open

618
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: to mentoring and sponsoring you and to help support you

619
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 3: if something comes up. I think organizing is something we

620
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: don't talk about in medical school, but organizing, the more

621
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 3: students that we have that are speaking up about these

622
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: kind of issues, the more protected you are.

623
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 2: Yeah.

624
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't try to sugarcoat it, because I

625
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: know there's so much more work that medical schools need

626
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 3: to do in creating diverse, inclusive environments for our students

627
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: where they can show up authentically. And I also say,

628
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: just keep your village, keep your family close to you,

629
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 3: your loved ones, your blood and chosen family close to you,

630
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: because they're the ones that are going to keep you

631
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: grounded during your process where you're an environment that is

632
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: very unfamiliar to you and sometimes unwelcoming to you. So

633
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 3: stay grounded, remembering your purpose, seeking help when you need to,

634
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: finding your village, whether it be other students or faculty.

635
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 3: When I was faculty, I really felt like it was

636
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 3: my purpose and obligation to support our students if something

637
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 3: came up, to speak on behalf of them, to let

638
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 3: their instructors know that something is going on to really

639
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: have their back, and I know there are a lot

640
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: of black faculty out there that are still doing that.

641
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: Wonderful Well, thank you so much for that, doctor Blacksack.

642
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could share how we can stay

643
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: connected to all the work that you're doing and where

644
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: can we grab a copy of your book? Sure?

645
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 3: So my organization is Advancing Health Equity. So that's actually

646
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 3: what I left Academic medicine to focus on. It's five

647
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 3: years old this month. It's a health equity consulting firm

648
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: and we work with healthcare organizations around the issues we're

649
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: talking about today to create diverse, inclusive environments where we

650
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 3: can retain black health professionals and where we can deliver

651
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 3: the most equitable care to our patients. So the website

652
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 3: for Advancing Health Equity is ww dot Advancinghealthequity dot com.

653
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 3: But if you want to follow me on social media

654
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 3: because I talk about these issues all the time they

655
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: mean so much to me. I'm on Instagram at UJA

656
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 3: Blackstock MD, I'm on Twitter at uja Underscore Blackstock, and

657
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: I'm on LinkedIn as well, and i also have my

658
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: own website wwwja Blackstock dot com. If people are interested

659
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 3: in book events and some media that I've appeared and legacy,

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00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 3: my New York Times bestseller is available wherever books are sold,

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00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 3: but I always recommend people to buy local, buy black owned,

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00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 3: so find those stores close to you.

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00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in the

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Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much, Doctor Blacksock.

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00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 2: Thank you, Doctor Joy.

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00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm so glad doctor Blackstock was able to join us

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00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about her and her work,

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00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

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00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session three fifty six, and don't

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00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls right now and

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00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking

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00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist

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00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And

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00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or

675
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over

676
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy

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00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You

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00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.

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00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elie Ellis and Zaria Taylor.

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00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

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00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

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00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,

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Speaker 1: what