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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. So

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Speaker 1: we set the stage really for a world in which

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Speaker 1: investors are yield starved and they look to the stock

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Speaker 1: market and wonder how much further can the stock price rise?

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Speaker 1: And here to help us understand all this is Milton Berg.

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Speaker 1: He is the chief executive and the founder of Milton

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Speaker 1: Berg Advisors. Thank you very much for being here. Much

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. Um tell us your your thesis. I was

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Speaker 1: reading some of your notes and I kept sort of

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Speaker 1: shaking my head yes and saying, okay, yeah, you're sure,

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Speaker 1: you're Barre. That's got to be a tough position to

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Speaker 1: be in right now. How do you how do you

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Speaker 1: sort of explain that not only to your clients but

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Speaker 1: to yourself intellectually. The clients are doing very well, I

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Speaker 1: must say, we've been doing there's about three and a

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Speaker 1: f years, we're out form in the market by double

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Speaker 1: up fifteen percent peran versus seven percent for the market.

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Speaker 1: So we're doing fine. Sam bearish, yes, and very long

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Speaker 1: to embarrash, but we're more trading oriented. We're more interested

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Speaker 1: in catching turning points. Our clients got long yesterday. For example,

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Speaker 1: we recommended going long yesterday for a very simple reason.

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Speaker 1: The sp declined all of two point nine percent. The

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Speaker 1: VIC surged forty four point three seven percent in August tenth. Now,

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Speaker 1: we checked historically, when is the VIX ever surged by

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Speaker 1: forty percent on a single day and the nine that

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Speaker 1: it hadn't only ten ten times in the past, and

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Speaker 1: nine of the ten times the minimum market gains to

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Speaker 1: the next top with seven percent only one case where

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Speaker 1: the market continued lower two days later. It's more than

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Speaker 1: two days later the market hasn't continued lower, which is

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Speaker 1: suggestive that the ninety percent probabilities there. So we're looking

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Speaker 1: for seven percent rally currently. So we were bearish, but

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Speaker 1: we're bullish. Is okay? Um, My mind is sort of

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Speaker 1: blowing up a little bit. But I'm trying to understand

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Speaker 1: how you marry these two ideas because it actually makes

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Speaker 1: perfect sense in a longer term perspective. You are not

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Speaker 1: bullish necessarily on the prospect of economic growth accelerating and

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Speaker 1: perhaps the debt overhang that we're accumulating due to quantitative easing.

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Speaker 1: But there are opportunities day to day to get into

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Speaker 1: the market. Is that what you're saying. We don't see

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Speaker 1: that abolute day to day. The opportunity is generally uh

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Speaker 1: every quarter of a year, and or even in a

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Speaker 1: beer market, a great beer market like tree or or

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Speaker 1: a great beer market on a real terms nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: six did zero percent over the twenty nine year period.

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Speaker 1: They're still opportunity to the market was down to be

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Speaker 1: short and many counter trending realizes that where you can

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Speaker 1: go along. So we're not looking for day to day trading.

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Speaker 1: We were short for about a month and a half

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Speaker 1: an hour, went long again yesterday. But when you say

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Speaker 1: short and long, are you talking about the indexes? Are

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Speaker 1: you talking about specific bonds? Uh? And how do you

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Speaker 1: sort of gauge whether or not we're we could call

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Speaker 1: a macro shop. Basically, when we pick stocks, it's not

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Speaker 1: because we like the stocks. We pick stocks as we

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Speaker 1: like the market with short stock, not because we hate

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Speaker 1: the stocks with short stocks as we hate the market.

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Speaker 1: It's a totally different concept than what most people in

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Speaker 1: this business do. So you can call the macro advisors

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Speaker 1: we like. We're more directional than anything else. I've worked

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Speaker 1: with George Soros, he's also very directional type of fellow.

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Speaker 1: Works stand Rock and will also very directional type of fellow,

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Speaker 1: which is what we do. Market is going gonna go up,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna find stocks to buy to participate marks going down.

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Speaker 1: We're not gonna find stock is gonna do well against

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Speaker 1: the market. We're gonna short stocks. So that's what we do.

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Speaker 1: And currently yesterday we got long. We didn't have the

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Speaker 1: confidence to pick stocks. We're only doing macro. We're going

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Speaker 1: along with the queues, which is the one SP five,

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Speaker 1: expecting a really to less maybe just a month or so,

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Speaker 1: but probably a pretty strong rally. I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: could just describe, based on your experience, which is extensive,

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Speaker 1: what are some of the mistakes that people make when

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Speaker 1: they think that they can trade momentum and follow the market.

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Speaker 1: There's one mistake they're making right now, and everyone's making

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Speaker 1: this mistake there looking at great the economy is worldwide

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Speaker 1: and saying Wow, Now the time is being stocks. Forgetting

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Speaker 1: that the time to get in stocks because now market

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Speaker 1: is great with nine years ago when the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the beer market, buy stock is sometime in the future.

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Speaker 1: That kind of they're doing well. Once the economy is

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Speaker 1: doing well, it's too late. You missed it. That's the

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Speaker 1: basic basically mistake people and making. People can comprehend how

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Speaker 1: could the market peak? Everything is doing so well, that's

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Speaker 1: precisely when markets peak. Have you been building a lot

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Speaker 1: of cash to take advantage of a potential tip? My

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Speaker 1: clients are never in cash. My clients are either fully

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Speaker 1: either short or long, always trying to make money because

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Speaker 1: my clients are basically the titans of the hedge fund industry.

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Speaker 1: We have some retail clients, we have some advisors that

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Speaker 1: manage their client's money. But my advice is never to

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Speaker 1: be in cash. There to be long or short to market,

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Speaker 1: but individual investors should be in cash in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: So what are the liquid securities of the liquid positions

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Speaker 1: that you make sure to have to change positioning should

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Speaker 1: you be wrong, Well, we just get out of whatever long,

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Speaker 1: we get out of whatever short. We don't have any

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Speaker 1: any qushion at a scale from once to ten. How

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Speaker 1: how parish are you for long term? For long term? Ten?

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Speaker 1: What's the long term for you? How long term thirty years?

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Speaker 1: What about in the next thirty years, meaning because you know,

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Speaker 1: with the price sales ratio levels never seen before in

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Speaker 1: the sp five hundred, with the with no cheap groups

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Speaker 1: of stocks, absolutely no cheap group of stocks, with the

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Speaker 1: fact that I've mentioned we've seen long term bear marks

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Speaker 1: in the past, but the fact that the bond market

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Speaker 1: made it is yield low a year and a quarter ago. No,

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Speaker 1: actually two thousand eleven, two thousand, January two thousand sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and would July anyways, the bond markets thirty years two

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Speaker 1: points eight percent and there's no reason to be bull

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Speaker 1: showed a long term Miltonburg the bullish bear, the parish bull.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but it's fascinating and it shows sort

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Speaker 1: of the conundrum of a market that is bound to

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Speaker 1: go up in spurts in the short term, but not

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Speaker 1: over the long term. Miltonburg, chief executive officer and founder

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Speaker 1: of Miltenberg Advisors, LLLC, based in New York. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's turn our attention now to the world of banking

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Speaker 1: and bringing y'allman owner On. He is our senior writer

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Speaker 1: for banking and finance for Bloomberg News. Great to have

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Speaker 1: you with us here in the studio. Yamen. Your recent

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Speaker 1: story is that bank profits could increase twenty percent if

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Speaker 1: there is any movement on deregulation or changes in financial rules.

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Speaker 1: Explain how that would happen. Well, you know, um, of course,

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Speaker 1: everybody's watching Congress and and Trump not really get along

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Speaker 1: and not being able to do things. So one would think, well,

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Speaker 1: then this can not happen either. But but this can

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Speaker 1: because a lot of the changes that that I looked

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Speaker 1: at and that we're actually detailed and highlighted in a

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Speaker 1: Treasury report in June. UM. The Treasury report basically said, well,

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Speaker 1: there would be great if we could actually change legislation

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Speaker 1: through Congress, but that probably won't happen. So let's look

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Speaker 1: at the things we can do without changing regular legislation.

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Speaker 1: So these are all rules that can be tweaked by

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Speaker 1: regulators who are going to be appointed by Trump. He's

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Speaker 1: slowly making his appointments. He's done some SEC and c

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Speaker 1: FDC appointments. Um, there's you know, fed Wise chairman is

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Speaker 1: the name has been nominated hasn't been confirmed yet, but

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Speaker 1: as these appointments get in place and he replaces the

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Speaker 1: leadership of the banking supervisory agencies, he can actually get

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Speaker 1: these changes made. Well, let's talk. Let's talk about what

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Speaker 1: these changes are, because they're actually, um, pretty fascinating and

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Speaker 1: pretty wide ranging considering the fact that it won't take legislation.

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Speaker 1: Can you walk us through. Yes. So, for example, one

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Speaker 1: of them is changing how the supplementary leverage ratio, which

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Speaker 1: is very crucial bossle three UM reform that came after

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Speaker 1: the crisis UM that sort of make sure banks have

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Speaker 1: some capital for older as it's regardless of risk UM

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Speaker 1: and this includes even cash or government bonds US government

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Speaker 1: bonds the safest things, but for flat capital required for

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Speaker 1: every asset. And this rule is just supposed to be

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Speaker 1: a backstop so that banks saying oh, we have no risk,

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Speaker 1: we have no risk, end up having so little capital

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Speaker 1: that they blow up. But so the rule change would

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Speaker 1: be exempting treasuries and cash from the calculation of this

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Speaker 1: leverage requirement. And then that means you can have more securities,

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Speaker 1: more government bonds without having to worry about capital constraints.

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Speaker 1: So they could level up their current capital and and

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Speaker 1: buy more US treasuries. You know, this also brings in

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Speaker 1: the question what they end up doing with that extra money, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean whether that goes to increased dividends for shareholders

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Speaker 1: or stock buy backs and and that's going to happen too.

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Speaker 1: And and you know buy backs have already buy backs

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Speaker 1: and dividends have gone up pretty uh significantly this year. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know that after the stress test that were just announced,

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Speaker 1: the results were announced in June, Banks basically said they're

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Speaker 1: gonna return of their profits to share holds in the

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Speaker 1: coming four quarters. That's a lot, but that means they're

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Speaker 1: not holding back anything to build capital. One reason that

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Speaker 1: has happened, of course, is capital has increased since the crisis.

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Speaker 1: For many years, they couldn't return anything to shareholders. They

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Speaker 1: had to really retain all their profits to build capital.

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Speaker 1: That here here has sort of ended, uh partly as

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Speaker 1: you know, they're accounting on the regulation. You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: struck by the concept of pushback, and there are some

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Speaker 1: officials who currently are pushing back, saying that perhaps we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't roll back regulations as aggressively as currently proposed. Among

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Speaker 1: those who have raised that concern is a FED vice chair.

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Speaker 1: Stanley Fisher, his board term runs FED chaired. Jenny Yellen

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Speaker 1: is an ally of his. What does the fact that

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Speaker 1: she very well may not be in office and Garry

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Speaker 1: Cone very well maybe the next FED chair? What is

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Speaker 1: that due to this whole calculus? Um? I mean there

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Speaker 1: are multiple elements of it. One is um, you know,

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Speaker 1: Trump can replace the leadership, so Yellen might not be there.

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Speaker 1: But Yellen might not be there as as uh the

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Speaker 1: head of the FED, but she can continue to serve

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Speaker 1: her term. Her term still has time to end as well.

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Speaker 1: Same with Stanley Fisher. His vice chairman position ends next year,

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Speaker 1: but he can stay on the board of the FED.

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Speaker 1: So and and the FED is not as um leader

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Speaker 1: driven as it used to be under Ellen Greenspan the maestro.

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Speaker 1: He basically made them do everything and everybody nodded. The

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Speaker 1: FED really now discusses and and and gets two decisions

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Speaker 1: on these things. So if Yellen stays and and Stanley

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Speaker 1: Fisher stays and and you know, and there are enough

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Speaker 1: people who really will not just allowed the leadership to

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Speaker 1: to force through every we change, then it might not

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Speaker 1: be easy. But still the math is is tough. One

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Speaker 1: and you know one or two leaving is all you

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Speaker 1: need for Trump to sort of fill their spots with

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Speaker 1: people like minded and then all these things can go through. Y'allman, owner,

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Speaker 1: and thank you so much for joining us. It's really

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Speaker 1: an interesting story and sure to get the attention of

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Speaker 1: people who are investing in bank stocks, specifically with an

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Speaker 1: eye toward this potential boon. Y'allman owner and is a

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Speaker 1: senior banking and finance writer for Bloomberg. Speaking of fossil fuels,

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Speaker 1: there was another bit of news that caught our attention,

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Speaker 1: and it was talking about how a couple of different

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Speaker 1: coal companies approached the White House for assistance to stave

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Speaker 1: off their bankruptcies. And this was interesting because President Trump

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Speaker 1: has been really remarkably coal. I want to bring in Rebecca,

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Speaker 1: current energy policy reporter for Bloomberg NA located in Arlington, Virginia. Rebecca,

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Speaker 1: can you give us a sense of what these two companies,

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Speaker 1: Murray Energy and First Energy, we're looking for from the

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Speaker 1: White House and sort of the surprise that they did

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Speaker 1: not get it? Hi, thanks for having me. Yes, Murray

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Speaker 1: Energy Corp. And then uh First Energy Corp. Have reached

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Speaker 1: out to the Trump administration um multiple times. They say

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Speaker 1: in letters that were posted online yesterday, we we got

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Speaker 1: hold of saying they wanted a emergency order to be

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Speaker 1: issued by the Energy Department to allow them to basically

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Speaker 1: keep offering their plans and keep them running as a

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Speaker 1: way to prevent them from filing bankruptcy. But it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty rare instance for the Energy Department to grant these

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Speaker 1: emergency orders in the past, they've really only done them

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Speaker 1: for large hurricane events or other events that such as

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Speaker 1: like the two thousand California energy crisis, where there is

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Speaker 1: a real um need to keep plants running for electrical

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Speaker 1: liability of the grid. And it seems them those companies

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Speaker 1: that make the case um enough for for the grant

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Speaker 1: for that order to be granted. Can you explain, Rebecca,

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Speaker 1: how politics enters into this, Well, it is that's what's

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Speaker 1: so interesting. As you mentioned the Trump administration and President

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Speaker 1: on Trump himself has been really forthright about saying he

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Speaker 1: wants to keep the coal industry afloat. Apparently he mentioned

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Speaker 1: it in his rally last night about you know, getting

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Speaker 1: clean coal up and running, and we're seeing that's not

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Speaker 1: the case for the Kemper plant in the Southeast. They're

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Speaker 1: they're turning that into a gas plant. So it's a

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Speaker 1: disconnect between UM, this administration saying it it supports coal,

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Speaker 1: but then in reality, UM, there's not a lot they

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Speaker 1: can do. There's a lot of economic factors against the

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Speaker 1: coal industry right now. Well, even in this particular instance,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of trying to wrap my head around what

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Speaker 1: an emergency stay would mean. What it just mean that

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Speaker 1: creditors couldn't repossess the plants and that they could keep operating,

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Speaker 1: or what it mean that the government would actually grant

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Speaker 1: these companies some kind of loan that on the cheap

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Speaker 1: that they could then repay when they're more financially stable. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's really it has to do a little more with

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Speaker 1: the grid and UM these regional transmission operators that decide

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Speaker 1: what plants go online to keep UM basically the grid

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Speaker 1: running reliably. So they want basically UH Energy Department to

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Speaker 1: issue issue this ordered basically directing these grid operators to

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Speaker 1: keep them, keep them alive or is an option for

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Speaker 1: grid reliability purposes, but it's not really used for our

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Speaker 1: financial UM purposes. I talked to a few Federal Energy

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Speaker 1: Regulatory Commission for attorney is who have worked on these

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Speaker 1: cases in the past. They say, this isn't a financial

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Speaker 1: um savior for these plans. That's not really what this

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Speaker 1: order has been used for in the past, and that's

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Speaker 1: likely why the Energy Department didn't grant it, because it's

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Speaker 1: really not handing money to these plants. It's really just

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Speaker 1: a reliability mechanism as a backup to keep the grid running.

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Speaker 1: It's it was kind of an odd pitch, but it

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Speaker 1: was seemed to be kind of a last last pitch

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Speaker 1: these companies are making to try to stay afloat. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Currn, thank you so much. It's interesting to see

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Speaker 1: the consequences of actual, real life implementation of policies versus

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Speaker 1: some of the rhetoric that we're hearing. Rebecca Currn is

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Speaker 1: energy policy reporter for Bloomberg, being a based in Arlington, Virginia.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at Murray energy bonds maturing well. Today. W

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Speaker 1: p p p LC, which is the world's biggest advertising company,

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Speaker 1: reported disappointing earnings that sentence shares plummeting the most in

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Speaker 1: seventeen years. And among the list of various factors that

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Speaker 1: you can blame, perhaps why not play some blame on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: because that seems to be the culprit in a lot

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Speaker 1: of different earnings. Leila Aboud is a gadfly columnist here

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg, and she wrote a terrific column talking about

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Speaker 1: the link between w PPS woes and the ascent of Amazon.

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Speaker 1: Leila joins us now, Leyla, can you give us a

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Speaker 1: sense of why Amazon has so specifically cannibalized w PPS

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Speaker 1: business model specifically? Well, I think the main thing to

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Speaker 1: understand is that the advertising agencies, Um, some of the

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Speaker 1: biggest advertising actual advertisers in the world are makers of

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Speaker 1: consumer and package good So the number one biggest advertiser

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Speaker 1: in the world is Proctoring Gamble, Number two as Unilever.

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Speaker 1: So companies like w PP, a lot of their business

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Speaker 1: and their effort and their their staffs time goes to

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Speaker 1: serve those customers, those customers Projecting, Gambill, Unilever, Nestley, you

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Speaker 1: name it. They're being disrupted by Amazon because it's Amazon

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Speaker 1: is now kind of one of the biggest most powerful

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Speaker 1: actors in retail today. UM, And I kind of use

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Speaker 1: in in my piece today is sort of this the

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Speaker 1: example of the of the Whole Foods deal, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of kind of I think can end up being

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Speaker 1: seen as a real seminal moment in the development of

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Speaker 1: e commerce in the US. It and it's kind of

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Speaker 1: even though that deal is not going to change um,

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Speaker 1: the advertising business or their clients business overnight, it's a

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Speaker 1: real kind of um symbolic saying for these businesses. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and everybody's worried about it. So um, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're an advertising agency like WPPS, is are the biggest

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Speaker 1: one in the world. Uh, they have to worry about

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Speaker 1: whatever their clients are worrying about, and their clients are

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Speaker 1: worrying about Amazon. Does the scale that that WPP has,

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Speaker 1: as well as some of the other advertising companies that

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Speaker 1: you've written about in your peace, whether it's Omnicom or

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Speaker 1: Publicists or into public does the scale of these companies

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Speaker 1: work against them? Now? I think that's a really good

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Speaker 1: question and one that somebody like Sorrel will get really

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Speaker 1: irritated if you ask him, because I know I've done

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Speaker 1: it before. Um, basically you have to so so these

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Speaker 1: big holding companies, Uh, we're basically kind of built up

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Speaker 1: in the seventies eighties. Um. You know, Sorrel building up

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Speaker 1: WP was really emblematic, uh person in this regard and

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Speaker 1: moist they viewed the same thing at t VCS and

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Speaker 1: the game was roll up all these different agencies and

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Speaker 1: different geographies. You could have a global presence to serve these, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, big brands that were growing bigger and bigger.

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting now is that with the rise

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Speaker 1: of online marketing and you know, Facebook and Google and

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Speaker 1: Amazon and kind of just the way that shopping and

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Speaker 1: media are changing, um, the value of scale, uh, may

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Speaker 1: not be as big as it was for these advertising agencies.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you have these big holding companies that

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Speaker 1: were built for a different era, and I think if

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Speaker 1: you were designing an advertising agency today, um, you probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't something that looked like you wouldn't create something that

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Speaker 1: that looks like w p P to be honest. Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: Leyla Pi and I were talking ahead of this segment

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Speaker 1: about the idea of famous people or you know, well

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Speaker 1: known personalities just hashtagging something in their Twitter feed or

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Speaker 1: Instagram feed, and that that can be more effective and

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Speaker 1: more visible advertising for some of these companies then say

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Speaker 1: a thirty second spot on television and so you know,

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Speaker 1: w PPS CEO Martin Sorel, did he talk at all

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Speaker 1: about the move forward and adopting some of these more

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Speaker 1: modern techniques of getting the word out. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: they actually do a lot of this stuff. To be fair,

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Speaker 1: I mean everyone's having the market is having a collective

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Speaker 1: freak out about w PP today. I actually think it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit overdone. If you follow advertising, UM, you

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Speaker 1: kind of know that all these holding companies WPP especially

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Speaker 1: because they're actually quite good UM at doing M and

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Speaker 1: A to to bring in new innovation and new technologies.

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Speaker 1: They understand what's going on so more than anyone UM.

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Speaker 1: And what they're doing is basically they're they're trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of spread out UM and so they have WC

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Speaker 1: has a very big bet on market research and data

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Speaker 1: and kind of data mining. They have another part of

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Speaker 1: their businesses is called Cantar, which advises brands on kind

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Speaker 1: of defect its effectiveness of their brand. So like you know,

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Speaker 1: is how is Tied doing among millennials, will go out

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Speaker 1: and study that so they know, and they even have

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Speaker 1: bits to do social marketing, social media marketing, so like

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Speaker 1: Instagram in filters, they do all this stuff. The problem

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Speaker 1: is that kind of as an investor, you buy into

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Speaker 1: w p P, which is kind of massive entity at

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Speaker 1: the top that does a bunch of this stuff. But

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Speaker 1: you know, the bottom line is if the growth is

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Speaker 1: going to be at um you know, revenue growth is

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Speaker 1: going to be at two three organic per year now

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Speaker 1: going forward, whereas in the past was more like five

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Speaker 1: to four percent. So that holding company level, if you're

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Speaker 1: an investor, all you really you're really just focused on that,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, So the holding companies actually make things

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Speaker 1: probably look worse than than what's actually happening in the

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Speaker 1: individual agencies, whereas a lot of savvy, like you said,

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Speaker 1: least of kind of in in Instagram marketing and in

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Speaker 1: snapchat and all this stuff. Well, Leila, I'm just wondering,

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Speaker 1: what do you need a big advertising company for. If

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Speaker 1: you can go on Instagram, let's say you are I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is the news this week that you're the wife

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Speaker 1: of the Treasury secretary and you're able to hashtag all

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Speaker 1: of the brands that you're wearing or carrying. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: cost a lot of money. And now that there's a

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Speaker 1: six second YouTube bad So I mean, are they really

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Speaker 1: with it or they just say that they're with it?

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Speaker 1: I think slipped around. So so if you look at

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Speaker 1: it from the point of view of the influencer who's

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Speaker 1: just putting stuff on hashtags on on Instagram. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: really easy. But if I'm propter and gamble um and

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Speaker 1: I have the Pampers brand, so so diapers, how do

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Speaker 1: I make sure that people are still buying diapers? Right?

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Speaker 1: I have sort of I will spend money um for marketing,

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Speaker 1: which is like trying to spur online sales, search results, couponing,

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Speaker 1: loyalty programs, all this stuff. And then I will also

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Speaker 1: spend money on brand building, which is TV ads kind

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Speaker 1: of trying to make sure that people have good feelings

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Speaker 1: about Pampers. The addinggies were always built to do those

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Speaker 1: two functions totally separately, marketing versus brand building. Troubles the

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Speaker 1: Internet mixes all this stuff together, right, So so these

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Speaker 1: old categories of kind of am I doing marketing or whatever,

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Speaker 1: it's it's totally irrelevant, right. But P and G still

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Speaker 1: has one big aim, which is create brands that people

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Speaker 1: are going to want to buy the products of, and

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Speaker 1: they will use Instagram and stuff like that. But I

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Speaker 1: don't really know that we have the answer yet whether

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Speaker 1: social media networks can really build brands in the long term.

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Speaker 1: It's not very as mass market as you think it is. Well,

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you very much for enlightening us.

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Speaker 1: Laila A. Boot is our columnist, our gad flight columnists

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Speaker 1: covering European technology, media and telecoms, joining us from Paris

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Speaker 1: and you can follow her on Twitter at l A. B.

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Speaker 1: Bootles bo U d l b S. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe

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00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever

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Speaker 1: podcast platform you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter

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Speaker 1: at pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's

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Speaker 1: one before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio