1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious ex m Triumph. 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: A ten month old little girl is dead. Why why malnutrition, 3 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: dehydration and denying the baby girl medical care, not letting 4 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: her go to the doctor. Why why why did she 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: lie in her bassinet and suffer and die? At ten 6 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: month old baby girl just crying and crying and crying 7 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: until she just didn't have the strength to cry anymore, 8 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: and she just laid there and died because her parents say, 9 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: we are Christians and doctors are evil. That's why I'm 10 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: Nancy Grayce. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 11 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: with us, and let me tell you right now, I 12 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: want justice. Who could let a ten month old baby 13 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: lie there crying, crying, sick, starving, thirsty, and deny the 14 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: child minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day 15 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: until the baby is dead? And then the blasphemy of 16 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: trying to blame God that it was all his idea. 17 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: Uh uh in oh, I'm not having it and I'm 18 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: not going to be happy until these two parents, Mommy 19 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: and Daddy. Is she better not jump up and claim, 20 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: oh it was his idea, it's her fault too, until 21 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: they are behind bars for life. Joining me. Dr Brian Russell, 22 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: host of investigation Discoveries, hit series Fatal Vows. Ash Wilcott, 23 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: founder of child Crime watch dot com, juvenile judge and lawyer. 24 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath 25 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: My Feet, professor at Jacksonville State University, and Crime Stories 26 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Crime online dot com journalist Larry Mayher also 27 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: Alan Duke and Jackie Howard with me here in the studio, Larry, 28 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: just give me the facts. Seth Welch and Tatiana few 29 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: Sorry live on a farm outside Grand Rapids, Michigan. They 30 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: are accused of allowing their ten month old daughter, Mary Welch, 31 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: to die of starvation on that farm. Now, police, hold 32 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: on just a moment, Larry. You know, Larry, I respect you, 33 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: and I know your facts are straight, but I don't 34 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: like your wording. Allow the baby to die? You know what? 35 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: They might as well have suffocated her, or shot her, 36 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: or stature. She didn't die of natural causes. They didn't 37 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: just allow her to pass away, fade away into the night. 38 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: They purposefully denied her food, water, and medical treatment that 39 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: she desperately needed, and then are blaming God. All right, 40 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: let's just break that down, go ahead. Well, police say 41 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: the father called nine one one to report that the 42 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: baby girl had died in her crib. For well, okay, thanks, 43 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: that's what a day late and a dollar short to 44 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: call nine when one when the baby is dead. Sorry, Larry, 45 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: go ahead. First responders said the child's eyes were sunken 46 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: and her body was cold when they arrived, which means 47 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: she had been dead for some time, and autopsy determined 48 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: she died of malanute Christian and dehydration, and the coroner 49 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: ruled that it was homicide. Now. Mother told police when 50 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: she was being questioned that they had noticed Mary looked 51 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: skinny about a month before she died. Takana Sorry also 52 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: told police she didn't seek medical attention because she was 53 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: one afraid that Child Protective Services would take her daughter 54 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: from her custody. Also to the family didn't trust doctors 55 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: or healthcare providers, and three, the family relied upon religion 56 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: for healing both the parents and the children. Okay, to 57 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: hold on, I believe all this is coming from uh 58 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: part of the Bible. I think it is anyway where 59 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: Um Christ performs miracles and heals people, and Um He's 60 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: often referred to as the great physician, and it is 61 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: believed by many Christians, including must Helf, that miracles do 62 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: happen and healings can happen. I do believe that. I 63 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: also believe that the Lord has given me the good 64 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: sense to know how to take my children to the 65 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: doctor when they're sick. And I do know for a 66 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: fact that um as freaked out as I was. And 67 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: you knew me during this, Ashley and Alan, when the 68 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: children were babies, I wouldn't do the bundled vaccinations. I 69 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: was so afraid I would separate. They took their one 70 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: year vaccinations. Took forever, like two or three years to 71 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: get them all done, because I would do one and 72 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: then take them back a month later and do another one, 73 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: and then two months that they got all done. But 74 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: I was afraid too. I wanted to do the right thing. 75 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: But hiding behind religion while your child dies, it's not 76 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: gonna work for me. But you know what, forget about 77 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: me saying what I think. Take a listen to the father. 78 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: Let's hear it's straight from the horse's mouth. I don't 79 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: vaccinate my kids, Uh haven't had any. They're not allergic 80 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: to anything. They basically don't get sick, they'll get sniffles 81 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:12,119 Speaker 1: for a day. Um. But I've I've kind of gone 82 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: the no vaccine rout out of out of reason and 83 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: then by faith because this is there's nothing. I just 84 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: don't I don't find it to be a very faithful 85 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: decision to do the vaccine thing. There are plenty of 86 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: people who lived healthy, long lives long before vaccines. Um, 87 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: the righteous shall live by faith. It's God who it's 88 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: God who's sovereign over disease and those sorts of things, 89 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: and and of course ultimately death. So it just doesn't well, yeah, 90 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: I guess ultimately death when you starve your baby to death. 91 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: You're hearing a little bit of the father in this scenario. 92 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: But wait a minute, I want you to hear more 93 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: of what this guy sayth seth wells and tausion. If 94 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: you're sorry now looking at felony murder and child to 95 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: be charges, you know they acted so surprised. In fact, 96 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: the woman, the mother's mouth fell open when the judge 97 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: read the charges. Right now, there's a long road to 98 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: hoe in justice in this case. There has to be investigation, 99 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: there has to be discovery, there has to be a 100 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: jury struck a trial, a sentencing if it makes it 101 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: that far, or will this case just be swept under 102 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: the rug like so many other child abuse and child 103 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: homicide cases. We are talking about a couple of so 104 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: called Christian parents who stand by and watch their ten 105 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: month old baby girl die a starvation and dehydration and 106 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: refusing to get medical treatment. Three things. One is when 107 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: you have these parents who articulate a religious rationale for 108 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: not seeking medical treatment for their kids. The rationale, when 109 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: they really explicated for you, is always something along the 110 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: lines of well, if God wanted my child to be healed, 111 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: then then God will do it. And I never understand 112 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: why they don't see all of the wonderful medical professionals 113 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: and medical resources and technology and treatments that are out 114 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: there as God acting in the world to provide a 115 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: healing opportunity for all of us, including their children. So 116 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: I don't understand the rationale first of all. But in 117 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: this case, I don't believe it because if you listen 118 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: to the mother. This is the second thing. If you 119 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: listen to the mother, she talks about the fact that, well, 120 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: there's a religious thing, but there's also this fear that 121 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: I had that maybe child protective services would look into 122 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: us and take the kids away. And Okay, so if 123 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: if you're if you're weighing, well, there's a little bit 124 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: of religion, but there's also concerns about maybe getting in 125 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: trouble with the law. Okay, then I don't believe you're 126 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: all that serious about the religion if it's just one 127 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: component of a number of earns that you supposedly had 128 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: that kept you from seeking medical treatment for your kid. 129 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: And then the last thing is, I don't even care 130 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: if they believe this or not. You can believe that 131 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: all day long for yourself as an adult and and 132 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: decide you're gonna decline medical treatment and you're gonna waste 133 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: away and die if you want to waiting for God 134 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: to heal you, fine, but you can't make that. A 135 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: child is incompetent to make that decision for him or herself. 136 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: And if you make that decision for the child, you 137 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: are a child abused. If the child's eighteen and they 138 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: want to do it, fine, But when they're sub eighteen, 139 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: you got to act in the child's best interests leaving 140 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: all opportunities available to them when they do get to 141 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: be an adult, meaning keeping them alive. Take a listen 142 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: to the dad, and let me point out this is 143 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: for Joe Gott Morgan to ponder. The child didn't die 144 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: of her illness, she died of malnutritious starvation and dehydration. 145 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: Where in the Bible does it say don't do that? 146 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: And I also want to point out that the New 147 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: Testament mentions Luke several times, and he was a physician. 148 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: So let's just think about that for a moment. I mean, 149 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: I think this whole thing is completely beast awkwards, but 150 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: I want you to listen to more of the evidence. 151 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: Listen to the dad. I'm not opposed to medicine or doctors. 152 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm opposed to bad medicine and doctors that are just 153 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: well that aren't really doctors. They're just like they're almost 154 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: just their priesthoods of the medical call, the priests of 155 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: the medical call. You know, they have a certificate from 156 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: some training camp somewhere that says, you know, they got 157 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: this test score, but that doesn't mean that they they 158 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: know like about the human body and stuff like that. 159 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: And further, they they don't want to really, you know 160 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: they don't. Because I'll put it and I'll say why 161 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: I don't think you can be a good doctor if 162 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: you don't believe in creation. Why because well you have 163 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: to understand the purpose of the body, after understand how 164 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: it's supposed to function and therefore why, and both those 165 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: things require a creator in order to actually properly diagnose 166 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: and then fix it. Right. So, I think if you 167 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: believe in evolution, it's basically bad doctor practice right from 168 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: the beginning, because well, just give them drugs and see, 169 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: I'm just some idiot, common farmer man. I just barely 170 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: have a college of high school diploma. But a lot 171 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: of this stuff when it comes to the body, isn't 172 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: rocket science. It really isn't. But they try to make 173 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: it so so that they can lord it over you 174 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: to into yes, to enslave you. Because these systems are enslaving, 175 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: they truly are. And a lot of the therapies and 176 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: all this, did this, that and the other, it's all 177 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: just a lot of it's making up for sinful behavior. 178 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: Where if we would get down to the root of 179 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: the problem, which is obeying the scriptures, you know, we 180 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: would solve a lot of these health issues. You aren't 181 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: hearing the voice of father Seth Welsh, his wife Tausian 182 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: I few sorry stands by him. A so called Christian 183 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: couple accused of starving their baby to death. They refused 184 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: medical treatment. They think doctors are evil and the devil's tool, 185 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: and they stood by and let their baby girl starve dead. 186 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: A husband and wife rejecting medicine on religious grounds now 187 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: looking at murder charges after their little baby, Maryanne's ten 188 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: months old starves dead and that's not necessarily medical treatment 189 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: to Joseph Scott, Morgan forensics expert. When the police arrived 190 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: this this married couple, they lived there with their three 191 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: children and Uh Soulent Township, Michigan. They find defences outside 192 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: the home are painted with religious slogans and scripture. There's 193 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: a big big sign and white letters that says repent, believe, obey. 194 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: Slogans like that are hand painted all around the home. 195 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: They also find an addition to the slogans. They found 196 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: the baby girl dead, her face sunken in UH dead 197 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: for many many hours. Her body is cold, and the 198 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: mother admits they failed to get medical help for fear 199 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: of having the children removed from them, and that they 200 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: did not trust medical services for religious reasons. Joe Scott 201 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: she had sunken eyes and cheeks. What does that mean? Yeah, 202 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: she's suffering from mal nutrition. Just on the surface, you 203 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: can it's very easy to spot. There's also there's also 204 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: things that we can look at on the body relative 205 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: to the gums, the skin. Everything in this presentation of 206 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: malnu true and is something that the parents would have 207 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: been fully aware of. I'm really struck by this case 208 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: in the sense that, um, you know, you've got someone 209 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: that is running off the rails here relative to medical 210 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: technology and everything. And I'm looking at Welch giving this 211 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: uh you know, he's pontificating here on the air about 212 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, all the stuff that he knows. Why didn't 213 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: he take his damn glasses off of his face? That 214 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, that's a medical device. He can trust in 215 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: the Good Lord to restore his eyesight, but he can't. 216 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: He can't restore the life of this child, who they 217 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: have in fact starved to death. Nancy, this is a 218 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: process that would have taken, in most estimates, forty days 219 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: plus in order to facilitate to get them to to 220 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: get this child, this little angel, to this point where 221 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: this child would have succumbed. So it's not only it's 222 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: not only malnutrition that we're looking at, we're also talking 223 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: about and listen to just grasped us for a second. 224 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: The child was dehydrated at ten months old? How how 225 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: hard is it to even get a dropper of water 226 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: and place it on the tongue of his poor child? 227 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: You know? And I can only imagine what they found 228 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: at autopsy with with dehydration and starvation. One of things 229 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: you'll see is that the ton, the ton actually begins 230 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: to swell in the mouth. Can you imagine this her her, 231 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: her little tummy is probably rigid distended. Um, it's enough 232 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: just to make me want to vomit. Uh. And the 233 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: fact that he is still up and running around, you know, 234 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that the police were aware of this guy. 235 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: You know, the deputies that worked this area, they ride 236 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: a beat around that area. You can only imagine they've 237 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: passed through this hot passed by this house before. They've 238 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: got these slogans painted on the fence. And you know, 239 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: he's talking out of both sides of his mouth here. 240 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: He's saying that he doesn't trust technology, medical technology, but 241 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: yet he'll sit there with glasses on facilitating his you 242 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: know this the stuff that he's spewing. Not only that 243 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: he's spewing it over technology, He's using a computer to 244 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: get the word out. So I guess it's okay to 245 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: use science for his end, but it's not okay to 246 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: use just basic human compassion and common sense to take 247 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: care of a ten month old child. Well, another thing, 248 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: ash Wilcott. You know in court the father's mouth drops 249 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: open and the mother starts crying when she hears the charges. 250 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: But she's just as guilty as the father, Ashley, Oh, 251 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: she is just as guilty. And so here's the thing 252 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: in this case. Religion is not a defense. It's not 253 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: an excuse. You can't hide behind religion to avoid taking 254 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: care of your children. In this particular case, that's what 255 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: they chose to do. Remember as a mother, as a mother, 256 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: she is They're observing the child's um decline, right, and 257 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: all of these things that are happening to the child 258 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: as a result of not treating the child. And it 259 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: infuriates me because it is so preventable. This child never 260 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: had to suffer, never had to die. I want you 261 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: to take a listen to this. This is a shocking 262 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: development in the story. Listened well, example of bad, bad 263 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: medicine when uh, when my first daughter was born, I 264 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: was still kind of on the plantation a bit like that. I, um, 265 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, I still thought I had to kind of 266 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: like report to the government, um willingly and you know, 267 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: very just okay, bring the kid to the doctor. Like 268 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: I was on the fence, Like I didn't I didn't 269 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: want to get my kid vaccinated. But I was just 270 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,239 Speaker 1: like I was afraid, you know, I didn't know what 271 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: was gonna happen if I said no, um, And what 272 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: happened when I said no is I got CPS calling me. 273 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: But I learned, you know, just how to deal okay, 274 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: right there, we learned at CPS. And I'm gonna hit 275 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: you with this, Ashley Walcott. You're the juvenile judge. You 276 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: have actually handled cases where parents refused medical treatment for 277 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: religious reasons. CPS has investigated him before they knew what 278 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: was going on in the home. They did nothing. The 279 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: baby is dead. And again, the baby did not die 280 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: from an illness an infection. The baby died from story marrivation, 281 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: and that takes days to occur in a baby. Days. 282 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: They stood by and let the baby die. And now 283 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: they're acting shocked to court and CPS, I swear they 284 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: need to be charged to they knew what was going 285 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: on inside the home and they did nothing. So there's 286 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: a lot of debate around the nation, Nancy, about whether 287 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: or not CPS should be charged with a crime and 288 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: situations like this, because this is a system fail, and 289 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: so yes, somebody needs to be accountable, because here's the process. 290 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: If anyone, if CPS sees that a child has been 291 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: neglected medical neglect and it's going to result in the 292 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: injury or possible death of the child, all they have 293 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: to do is go to court. And the court has 294 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: the ability the jurisdiction, Like you said, I do it 295 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: all the time to sign an order or not. If 296 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: the child's at risk because they're not receiving medical care 297 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: because of financial excuse me, religious choices of a parent, 298 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: the court can sign an order that says, yes, hospital 299 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: administer whatever treatment is needed to protect and take care 300 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: of the child so the child does not die. It 301 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: is a simple says the court has the ability jurisdiction. 302 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: I do it on a frequent basis for blood transfusions 303 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: to ensure that children don't die when they don't have to. 304 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: This was a system fail. Well, I agree with what 305 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell was saying earlier. It's it's fine for 306 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 1: you if you want to risk your life and not 307 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: seek medical treatment. To extend that to your children, that's 308 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: a whole another can of worms. And I can also 309 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: tell you this, Seth Welch and Tausian. If you're sorry 310 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: you're hiding behind the Bible, well, you know what, you 311 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: can discuss that with Satan in Hell. You know, they 312 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: look normal, they really do. They look like any parents 313 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: you'd see with their three children walking around and Target 314 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: or Walmart or wherever. You never know that inside their 315 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: home it's pure hell h E double elf for the 316 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: children anyway. They certainly look like they haven't missed a meal. 317 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: But the baby girl, ten month old Marianne, starved dead. 318 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 1: And who do they blame? God? Take a listen to 319 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: the dad, if you can stand it, hold your nose 320 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: and listen to this. If your home birthing, you know, 321 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: I it was five months before we even got Mary's 322 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: birth certificate and so security cards stuff like that. So um, 323 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, they don't really they don't know so much 324 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: about you as you might think. If you keep things, 325 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: if you don't go on their plantation. If you're not 326 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: birthing your kids in the hospital, they're not born into 327 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: the system immediately anyway. Um, So there there's the there's 328 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: lots of ways you can just basically avoid them and 329 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: you know, you live. I mean, I would love to 330 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: see a commune of of Christian disciples living off the 331 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: grids somewhere and and just living free. And it's just like, hey, 332 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, if you if the government wants to come 333 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: number our children, they can come do that, but we're 334 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: not gonna go. We're gonna take care of ourselves. We're 335 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: gonna grow our food, We're gonna cut our wood where 336 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, We're gonna do whatever we gotta do, but 337 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: we're we're gonna live free. I would love to see that, 338 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do it. You know, I'm doing what 339 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: I can to try to see something like that happened. 340 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: But um, at the end of the day, you know 341 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: it's not it's not one of the ten commandments. Okay, 342 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: you are hearing the voice of the Father in this scenario. 343 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: You know, I hate to even call him a father 344 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: because when I say father, I think of my own dad. 345 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: He has passed away. There was nothing but loving and 346 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: kind to all of us. You know, Joe Scott and 347 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: uh Ashley, Dr Brian Russell, Larry Mayher, Alan and Jack. 348 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: You have heard me speak of him many many times. 349 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: I remember him getting up with chest pains and going 350 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: to work on the railroad because he wanted to send 351 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: us all to college. Was afraid, not afraid. He didn't 352 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: want to miss a day of work. Um. I think 353 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: back on that and I hate to even put this 354 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: guy in the same cat Glory is my dad. But 355 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: you're hearing the voice of the father of these children, 356 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: Seth Welch his wife Taussian, if you're sorry, and they're 357 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: blaming their religion for the death of their ten month 358 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: old baby girl, Maryanne. She did not die of an ailment, 359 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: a sickness and and fiction. She died of starvation and dehydration. 360 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: You know, you can go days and days and days 361 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: without food, not so with water. You can only live 362 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: a few days without water. And that's what happened to 363 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: this baby. Larry Mayhart joining me Crime Online dot Com 364 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: and Crime Stories investigative reporter. Why was Child Protective Services 365 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: de facts is like, call them Department Family Children's Services 366 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: onto them? What got them started on this family. It 367 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: started in when their oldest daughter was born, and court 368 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: records indicate that doctors found THHC, the active ingredient of marijuana, 369 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: in her blood at the time she was born, and 370 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: so child Protective Services reached out to the family. Wait 371 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: a minute, Wait a minute, somebody mommy was using pot. 372 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: What are they gonna how are they gonna blame that 373 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: on Christ? Dr Brian Russell? Did he come down and 374 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: give him a big fat dooby? I mean, I don't 375 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: want to sound disrespectful, because I love the Lord, but 376 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: I mean, how can you claim to be this upright 377 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: person while you're smoking pot and you've got the you're 378 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: giving birth to the baby and then refusing medical treatment. 379 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that a little bit duplicate us? Yeah? Again, 380 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: I don't believe that these these religious Protestations professions coming 381 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: out of them are genuine. You know, earlier in my career, 382 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: I used to do evaluations of people who wanted to 383 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: be police officers to see if they had, you know, 384 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: the mental stability to do that job of and the 385 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: vast majority of cases, the people who said they wanted 386 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: to go to police academy because they wanted to protect 387 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: and serve that was exactly what I found them to be. 388 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: But every once in a great, great while, there was 389 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: somebody who was a an extremely immature, impulsive narcissist, who 390 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: who was really anti social, really very much like the 391 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: people the cops chased down, who wanted to be a 392 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: cop because the badge gave them societal permission to go 393 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: out and rough people up and lord their power over 394 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: people that look like they like they always wanted to. 395 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: And and I think there are parents who use religion. Uh, 396 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: they they latch onto this kind of stuff. I want 397 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: to be off the grid, I want to homeschool, I 398 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: want to not vaccinate. Uh, you know, I want to 399 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: basically have nobody overlooking what I do with my kids 400 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: because they're basically abusive. And they latch onto this kind 401 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: of stuff as a cover. And sometimes you see it 402 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: with people who want to use drugs. They said, well, 403 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: it's part of my religious observe. I'm a Rastafarian, or 404 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: I need to use peyote to get close to God 405 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: or whatever, And really what they just are drug abusers 406 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: who want a shield, a shield where society won't question 407 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: it because it's supposedly their religion. With me, Larry Mayher 408 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter. So the de facts 409 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: child Protective Services were onto this couple as far back 410 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: as two thousand fourteen, now is two thousand eighteen, and 411 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: we've got to did maybe they had four years to 412 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: get it together and they end up with a dead baby. 413 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: They end up with a corpse. Yeah, the fourteen case 414 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: didn't result in any action by the Child Protective Services 415 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: and according to the most recent filing in this case 416 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: by the Child Protective Services, they hadn't had any further 417 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: contact with the family. Since that's their fault, that's their fault. 418 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: As you, Wilcott, you're the juvenile judge. You deal with 419 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: defects every single day. Yeah, absolutely, this their faulty. They 420 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: when you get any kind of referral is defacts. To 421 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: look at a family, right and go to one child, 422 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: You look at the entire child. Excuse me, the entire family, 423 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: all of the children, any concerns, everything that's going on. 424 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: That's what they're mandated to do to investigate the case. 425 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: Listen to this. You know, I'm not one of these 426 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: people who you know, says if you pray, God's gonna 427 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: fix all your physical maladies. Um, I figure I should 428 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: just get this out of the way. Uh that that's 429 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: not Jesus did the physical healings to prove who he was, 430 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: to prove his power, and God still does those miraculous 431 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: physical healings to this day. But really more of what 432 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: he's talking about is the spiritual healings, and a lot 433 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: of medical problems that are increasing in this country are 434 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: directly related to spiritual issues. Let's go first one, heart disease, 435 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: gluttony right serving the flesh, eating fanny food. Trust me, 436 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: I know all about it. I do. I'm working my 437 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: weight right now. You know he's working on his weight 438 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: as am I. But the reality is while he is 439 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: gorging himself, his baby girl is dying. So bottom line, 440 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: just got Morgan, how long can a child go a 441 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: person go without water and or food? Just got Morgan 442 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: is joining me, death investigator. What can you tell me 443 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: about the reality of how long they stood by and 444 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: let the baby starve? Absence absence of nutrients as far 445 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: as food, This sort of thing depended upon, depended upon 446 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: your fat stores and energy stores going in in a 447 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: normal circumstance, Let's say somebody has been held in captivity 448 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: you're looking at uh an outer marker of about sixty days. 449 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: But now you've got a child who's lived with these people, 450 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: um for this period of time, it would draw into 451 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: it's gonna skew the data because you're looking at a 452 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: child that has these idiots as caretakers, and so God 453 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: only knows what they've been doing early on. So um, 454 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: this has been something that's been drug out over a 455 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: period of time. As far as water being hydrated, you 456 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: can only go maybe six seven days before you start 457 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 1: having serious repercussions relative to absence of of hydration. So 458 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, I'm wondering, Nancy, if this is something that 459 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: the child has been given, say just kind of piecemeal 460 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: over period of time, and they kind of come and 461 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: go with it. And that's another question I have. What 462 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: what other maladies do do they have relative to this 463 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: to this child? Well that that may be true, there 464 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: may be other maladies, but the coroner says the baby 465 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: died of malnutrition and starvation, starvation and dehydration. The maximum 466 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: time an individual can go without water seems to be 467 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: about a week. I know for a fact you can 468 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: go twenty one days without starving because Gandhi did that 469 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: on one of his hunger protests. I know that for 470 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: a fact. Okay, with water about a week max. So 471 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: give them the benefit of the doubt. They at least 472 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: watched the child as she died for a week. So 473 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: you know what again, let me just sum up the 474 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: law rot in Hell. I will not rest until these 475 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: two so called parents have life behind bars and their 476 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: children are in a loving home. And Orlando woman loses 477 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: over a quarter of a million dollars. It was her 478 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: entire life savings to a match dot com catfish mystery man. 479 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: To top it all off, I'm understanding this so called 480 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: mystery man used a former Bosnian ambassador's photo to lure 481 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: the woman in I mean Wendy across the line of 482 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: fantasy and get into your bank account and hand over 483 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: the money. Two d and seventy thousand dollars. Everything she 484 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: had saved, her entire life's earning now gone to a 485 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: catfish or I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank 486 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: you for being with us with me. Alan de just 487 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: got Morgan, Ashley Wilcot and Dr Brian Russell of I 488 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: d S fatal vows Alan in a nutshell, what happened. Well, 489 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: this is Diane Standis. She lives in Orlando and she 490 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: was lonely. So she went on to match dot com 491 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: because some of her friends had found companions through that 492 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: service before everybody, you know, sneers at online dating. It works, Okay, 493 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: go ahead, and this how else do you meet people 494 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: these days? Well, I guess it bars Alan. Isn't that true? 495 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: I always preferred Alan. I preferred church until a place 496 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: that didn't work out for me. You mean those other 497 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: three divorces. I met one not judging, not judging, I 498 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: want you to be happy. Then I met one at 499 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: court that was now, yeah, that that's whole another can 500 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: of worms about why everybody's in corporate. But just let's 501 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: go ahead with losing the two and seven. So so 502 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: this guy with he's a handsome guy, she understood from 503 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: his messages to her, And there were only a very 504 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: few number of phone messages or phone conversations with this man, 505 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: but she thought that he was actually working in California, 506 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: and he was reaching out saying, you know, I need 507 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: some money, I need some money, And she was hitting 508 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: up her bank account and depositing money thinking that she 509 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: was going to see this man soon his pictures were 510 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: very handsome. She didn't think, I mean, it's all what 511 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: you what beauty is in the iley behold or Alan 512 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: duke um Because I'm looking at the photo he used 513 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: on match dot com. How did the whole thing go down? 514 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: That's what I want to find out. She thought he 515 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: was He sent her those pictures, and she thought those 516 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: were pictures of him. But he and that he was 517 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,719 Speaker 1: a CEO of a construction company from Germany, that he 518 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: was working on a project in Bakersville, California, and once 519 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: that was done they would get together and live happily 520 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: ever after. Well, shaneknew him by the name Darnielle Jerry 521 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: Michael after they met on match dot com. Hold on, 522 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell is chomping at the bit, you're neelywed, Okay, 523 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: I'm just putting that out there. Go ahead, weigh in. 524 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: I think that Alan, what Allen alluded to is correct. 525 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: I think what this case really shows is the power 526 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: of loneliness, because if you think about it, you really 527 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: have to willfully suspend disbelief to to to accept that 528 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: here you are having this online relationship with somebody who's 529 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: an accomplished, successful professional CEO of a company and yet 530 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: they need money from disagree. They can communicate with you 531 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: about the money. They can't call you or show up 532 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: and see you in person. Bryan, Dr Brian, Dr Brian. 533 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: Normally I agree with you and yes, to us it 534 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: sounds crazy, loony, irresponsible, but without anybody speaking out, how 535 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: many of us has ever dated a bad apple? When 536 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: you stay in the relationship and you don't want to 537 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: face that the person is a big fat loser okay, 538 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: That they've got an anger problem, that they try to 539 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: pick out your clothes for you, okay and tell you 540 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: what to wear every day. Okay. Uh, That they call 541 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: you incessantly, that they drink too much, or they use drugs, 542 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 1: or they yell at your kids whatever, Ashley, so many times, 543 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna just put it out there. Men and 544 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: women do it, but I always here about women doing 545 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: it the most. You turn a blind eye to facts 546 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: and evidence because you love the person and you don't 547 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: want to know it. You don't want to know, so 548 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: you choose not to know. That happens every day with 549 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: people you're physically living with. Oh gosh, absolutely so. God 550 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: love us as emotional women. We are emotional women, and 551 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: we're emotional about these men that we find. And the 552 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: thing I want to point out that you just made 553 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: clear too, is it doesn't matter if you meet somebody 554 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: online or you meet somebody in person. You can always 555 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: be subject to falling for a bad guy, the bad 556 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: boy who's not the right one. And we should always 557 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: use due diligence to make certain they don't take things 558 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: like our two hundred and seventy thousand dollars from US 559 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy thousand dollars. You know what, Yes, 560 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: he took her whole life savings. But I see women 561 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to child abuse in their own home, 562 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: of their own children that get beaten, and they think 563 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: it's going to get better and they stay so Dr 564 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: Brian Russell, you're right, You're absolutely right. How irresponsible this 565 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: was to give away money if somebody met online. But people, 566 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: men and women, choose to ignore what's right under their nose, 567 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: much less online. Dr Brian, that's right. And and as 568 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: I I'll say it again, it illustrates the power of loneliness. 569 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: Why do people do these things that an outsider looking 570 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 1: in and thinks are such irrational choices? Because the loneliness, 571 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: the feeling of being alone or the fear of being 572 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: alone is so uh, it's so bad for PA so 573 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: aversive to people that they they will accept anything, put 574 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: up with anything, willfully suspend disbelief and believe anything to 575 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: alleviate that loneliness or to avoid that loneliness. And you 576 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: have to you have to recognize how powerful it is 577 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: because it can cause you to to just give up 578 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: your irrational part of your mind, and you can't do 579 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: that when you're dating. I mean, this woman, I feel 580 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: very sorry for her that she lost a quarter of 581 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: a million dollars, but I feel I think she's lucky 582 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 1: that she didn't end up on my show because the guy, 583 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: obviously it was a pretty skillful sociopath and I'm not 584 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: sure where the limits on that would have been. Right. Well, 585 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. I think you'll ever find him. 586 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: I wish to god, I could you love this guy? Yeah? 587 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: And he told me he was in love with me. 588 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: I've talked to a million people. That's something that people 589 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: on the harmony on match and they're happily married, and 590 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: so I didn't have any reason to question it. This 591 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: is the only voice message she saved. Are you doing you? 592 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: Please call me ant thank you. He would call it 593 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: from four different numbers, always in need of money. It 594 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: was mostly lawyer fees, bail money. Six tract those numbers 595 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: to Bakersfield, California. I never thought I could fall in 596 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: love with somebody with a telephone, But for some reason, 597 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: it just he just he just said the right things 598 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: to me. That's right. They never met. He could be 599 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: anybody anywhere. I have no clue. An online romance leaves 600 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 1: a woman destitute. But you know what earlier, asked she will? 601 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 1: I said, emotional women, Alan, do you my partner in crime? 602 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: I believe you have a little catfish story for me. 603 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: This happened several years ago between marriages. On Facebook, I 604 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: got a friend request. It was a beautiful woman sending 605 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: me these pictures. I looked at her profile. She was 606 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: a musician. The stories she could tell me and that 607 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: she did over a period of a couple of weeks, 608 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: she had me going until I started doing a Google 609 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: reverse image search and I realized, wait a second, that's 610 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: those are Naomi Campbell's pictures. It was embarrassing, But please 611 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: tell me you didn't center your life. Say no, no, 612 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: She was talking about coming to Los Angeles and visiting me, 613 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: visiting your wallet, Alan, not that you're You're not handsome 614 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: and mysterious and all of that the total package. But 615 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: I think she was interested in that. While I wanted 616 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: to believe her. Here's the best thing that's just sad. 617 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: She told me she was a backup singer for the 618 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: Rolling Stones and she was about to go on tour. 619 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: And when I go with her, I was ready. I 620 00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: was ready to pack up my bags and hit the 621 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: road with jaggers. What other lies did she tell? Alan? 622 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: Do you well? She told me that her son was 623 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: the illegitimate son of singer Bob Dylan. Now that was 624 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: fascinating enough, my ex partner, Alan Duke, because with that, 625 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: when I just don't know if I can look at 626 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: you with any degree of respect anymore. This woman out 627 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: of her entire life savings over a catfisher on match 628 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: dot com. Word to the wise, you are listening to 629 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace