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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, how often would you

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Speaker 1: say you think about the concept of beauty the concept

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Speaker 1: of beauty. Probably only when I'm in the studio. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I think about my foundation and my concealer and

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Speaker 1: my hair products and body image and how my pants

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Speaker 1: are fitting. Probably all the time. Yeah, I definitely have

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Speaker 1: these certain moments, and I want to know if if

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Speaker 1: you experience this as well. When I'm I'm getting dressed

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Speaker 1: and it turns into this massive tailspin because I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to put something on and nothing is looking good, and

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Speaker 1: then something with my hair is not working, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm slathering my face in all this makeup and I

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Speaker 1: stopped and I think, why why am I doing all

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Speaker 1: of this? I'm I'm spending all of this time and

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Speaker 1: energy and anxiety. You could be sleeping so much later.

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Speaker 1: I could be sleeping, I could be reading, I could

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Speaker 1: be ruling the world, I could be writing, I could

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Speaker 1: be running for president. But instead I'm looking for, you know,

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Speaker 1: the right button down. And we talked so much about

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Speaker 1: um body image and how women are regarded in the

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Speaker 1: world and feminism and all this stuff, and every now

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Speaker 1: and then I wonder if it's all just at odds

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Speaker 1: with each other, you know what I mean, Because it's like, well, well,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't care about these things, right. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people do have the argument that if you are a

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Speaker 1: true feminist Christian, you would not worry about that stuff,

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Speaker 1: but would instead worry about your impact on the world.

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Speaker 1: But then it's like, no, it's it's good to have,

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Speaker 1: you know, ownership in in what we look like and

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Speaker 1: how we present ourselves, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: In then, on top of all this, I think about

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Speaker 1: the idea of growing up now if I were a

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Speaker 1: tween or a young teen today, having grown up with

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Speaker 1: social media and the constant public presentation and having to

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Speaker 1: manage all of that while going through that whole who

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Speaker 1: am I face and you know, kind of trying on

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Speaker 1: different outfits both literally and figuratively, and how different the

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Speaker 1: idea of beauty might be for for girls of the

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Speaker 1: next generation of the selfie generation. He might say, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: so I felt very lucky that we were able to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation with Autumn Whitefield Madrono who is the

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Speaker 1: author of the blog The Beheld, which is cross posted

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Speaker 1: over at The New Inquiry. Because she is a fantastic writer,

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Speaker 1: first of all, but she has so much insight into beauty.

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Speaker 1: She's been blogging about beauty, and not just in the

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Speaker 1: sense of hey girl, this new makeups, you should try it,

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Speaker 1: but beauty from a more scholarly since and I ran

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Speaker 1: across her blog I don't know, maybe a year or

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Speaker 1: two ago, and I can't get enough of it because

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Speaker 1: it's so insightful and I feel like all of these

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Speaker 1: questions that I've had about beauty as a woman, she's

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Speaker 1: already thought about and written something very wise about. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she she admits right off that, you know, her friends

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Speaker 1: basically said, you've either got to cut all this out

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Speaker 1: completely or you've got to start writing about it more.

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Speaker 1: And she has really thought long and hard about a

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Speaker 1: lot of these concepts that a lot of us women

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Speaker 1: kind of have to wrestle with. You know. She talks

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Speaker 1: about the issues of beauty versus feminism, or beauty within feminism,

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Speaker 1: or feminism within beauty, and how you know, our beauty

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Speaker 1: products don't necessarily enhance our our fight for equality in

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Speaker 1: the workplace for instance, but they don't work against it, right,

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Speaker 1: And uh, it was funny because as I a few

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Speaker 1: months ago or a little while ago, I tweeted something

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Speaker 1: of hers and she tweeted me back, and lo and

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Speaker 1: behold we were mutual fans of each other's work because

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Speaker 1: her work resonated so much with me, because I felt

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Speaker 1: like she sort of took the same kind of rigorous

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Speaker 1: research approach that we try to take with all the

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Speaker 1: stuff that we do with the podcast into the work

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Speaker 1: that she does, focusing uh more closely on beauty. And

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Speaker 1: so I invited her out of the show and we

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Speaker 1: had a wonderful conversation. And um, she has a book

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Speaker 1: coming out. It won't be out for until I believe, um,

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Speaker 1: but you should definitely follow her. She's at the Beheld

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Speaker 1: that's the underscore Beheld on Twitter, and you can read

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Speaker 1: her work at the Beheld, which is the dash beheld

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Speaker 1: dot com. And also, like I said, she's cross posted

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Speaker 1: over at the New Inquiry. But UM, I don't know, Carolin,

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Speaker 1: you think we should just go ahead and roll this conversation,

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Speaker 1: roll it. Let's roll it. So without further ado, here

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Speaker 1: is a chat about beauty with beauty expert and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to call her a scholar Autumn Whitefield, Madrono. Hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy well to get started. For listeners who are

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Speaker 1: not familiar with The Beheld, it's a beauty blog, but

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Speaker 1: it's so much more than a beauty blog. How do

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Speaker 1: you describe the Beheld to people? The ways I usually

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Speaker 1: describe my work as a Beheld is I say, well,

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Speaker 1: I write a beauty blog, but it's not a blog

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Speaker 1: about products or reviews. It's sort of a sociological take

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Speaker 1: on beauty. And depending on where the person goes tomeral,

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Speaker 1: you know, if they well, you know, it's a feminist

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Speaker 1: perspective that I'm not necessarily one sort of strict, you know,

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Speaker 1: school of feminism. UM. It incorporates my personal experience of

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Speaker 1: the beauty, interviews with women who have sort of unusual

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Speaker 1: experience as this beauty. UM. The goal of my goal

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Speaker 1: of the Behold, it's just to kind of being a

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Speaker 1: part of the conversation that we're sort of happening nationally

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Speaker 1: about women, and you know that I feel like this

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Speaker 1: is sort of one way that I can contribute to

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Speaker 1: the sort of myriad conversations have been happening in the

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Speaker 1: past few years. About sort of where are we now

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Speaker 1: with the really women's place in the world. Um. Now.

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Speaker 1: On your blog you say that one of the inspirations

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Speaker 1: for starting the Beheld was that a friend told you

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Speaker 1: to either think less about beauty or write more about it, which,

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Speaker 1: first of all, props to a very straightforward friend. We

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Speaker 1: all need them. Um But what about be fed your

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Speaker 1: interests so much? Like why were you why were you

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Speaker 1: thinking and talking about it so much? Aside from kind

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Speaker 1: of the inherent fact of you know, being a woman,

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Speaker 1: and we tend to maybe think about those things a

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Speaker 1: little bit more. Well, I think part of it is,

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Speaker 1: you know, just the function of beauty itself, not just

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Speaker 1: being a woman instead of having these social expectations. But

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Speaker 1: I've heard one mention of duty as being you know,

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Speaker 1: I know that something is beautiful when I wanted to

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Speaker 1: continue to look at it, and so, you know, fascination

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Speaker 1: and duty go hand in hand, so on one, you know,

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Speaker 1: on one time, I'm sort of just like anyone else's

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Speaker 1: beauty is fascinating to me, but as far as but

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Speaker 1: it really sort of thinking critically about beauty. The first

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Speaker 1: time I can remember was I was fourteen years old

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Speaker 1: and I was doing a school report about eating disorders,

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Speaker 1: and as a part of my um study, you guess

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Speaker 1: you could call it, I decided to survey the girls

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Speaker 1: in my class and see how they thought about their bodies.

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Speaker 1: And sure enough, most of the girls said that they

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Speaker 1: thought they were too fat and needed to loose weight

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Speaker 1: within nineteen ninety or so. And I noticed two things.

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Speaker 1: The first thing was that most of the women, most

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Speaker 1: of the girls who said that they actually felt fine

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Speaker 1: about their bodies, were athletes. And I thought that was interesting.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't athletic myself, so I was like, that's that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I sort of got me thinking about, Okay, so maybe

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Speaker 1: there's something women girls can actually do to sort of

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Speaker 1: feel better about themselves. But the thing it really got

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Speaker 1: me going was I approached one of the girls in

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Speaker 1: her class and she was probably one of the bigger

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Speaker 1: girls in our class. She wasn't opious or anything, but

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Speaker 1: you know, see what you might call big boned. And

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Speaker 1: I asked her and she said, oh, I feel fine,

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Speaker 1: you know, my body's fine, as it did, just like

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Speaker 1: you know, i'd asked her about the weather or something,

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Speaker 1: And that just blew my mind. I was so intrigued

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Speaker 1: by hearing this girl who, by sort of the social

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Speaker 1: expectations quote unquote, should feel like she had to how

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Speaker 1: to lose weight to say now, whatever's fine. And that

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Speaker 1: was the first I really listened to someone else's experience,

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Speaker 1: in her experience about an appearance, and I started maybe

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Speaker 1: consider what other sort of messages I was getting and

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Speaker 1: what messages I wasn't hearing. And I guess that sort

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Speaker 1: of launched a life long cause. Actually even though I've

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Speaker 1: only been blogging for a couple of years. Okay, um, well,

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Speaker 1: kind of speaking of you know girls, the fact that

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Speaker 1: this initial thought process was you know, sparked when you

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Speaker 1: were younger. Um, you did mention in one of the

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Speaker 1: beauty roundups that you do every week on the beheld

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Speaker 1: that one of the things you'll be looking into for

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Speaker 1: a book that you are now working on is how

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Speaker 1: the Internet has changed how we take in imagery. And

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Speaker 1: so I wondered if you could kind of expound on

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Speaker 1: that a little bit on how how you think it's changed,

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Speaker 1: and especially for you know, for younger girls who are

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Speaker 1: growing up with the Internet and constant self presentation on

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Speaker 1: social media, all of these different forces that are maybe

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Speaker 1: affecting our thoughts about beauty and our you know, like

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Speaker 1: what we consider beautiful. Well, one of the biggest things

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Speaker 1: that I think the Internet has changed about the way

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Speaker 1: we pursue beauty is not even so much about beauty,

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Speaker 1: but the way that we perceive images, because we're creating

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Speaker 1: so many of our own images Now, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: see we kind of see images as interactive. They're sort

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Speaker 1: of starting points. You though. There was a funny episode

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Speaker 1: moment in an episode of mad Men on Sunday night,

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Speaker 1: and by Monday morning, they're all all these gifts or

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Speaker 1: g I s I don't know how you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: say it of of that moment and people sort of

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Speaker 1: making it their own little memes. So we we transform

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Speaker 1: images interesting for purposes. We're always recontacted rising images, which

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Speaker 1: I think is really something that before you have to

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Speaker 1: work a lot harder at. Now, anyone with you know,

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Speaker 1: the most basic computer knowledge can create their own images.

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Speaker 1: And something that goes hand in hand with that is

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Speaker 1: that I think we are better understanding what goes into

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Speaker 1: creating the images. Um. I don't necessarily think that just

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Speaker 1: knowing the images are retouched is enough for most women

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Speaker 1: or girls or anyone to to sort of be able

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Speaker 1: to dismiss it as oh, well, nobody really looks like that.

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Speaker 1: I think the images, you know, have a pretty particular

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Speaker 1: hold in our minds, even if we know that it's

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Speaker 1: been manipulated. But I think that we're better understanding the

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Speaker 1: role of fantasy that comes into these images now, in

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Speaker 1: part because you know, we've seen a lot of the

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Speaker 1: clime of scenes work going on with images. And I

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Speaker 1: think you know, another aspects as um the Internet and

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Speaker 1: how it's changing how we're looking at beauty and images

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Speaker 1: is social media. Um. I mean, I'm thinking of the selfie,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of you know, these self portraits that

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Speaker 1: so many people have on their Facebook pages or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You hold the camera up and you make a little

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Speaker 1: face when you take a picture. I mean, anyone who's

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Speaker 1: ever tried to take a self portrait knows that the

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Speaker 1: one that wants up going on your Facebook page is

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Speaker 1: one is on the images in that in that sense

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Speaker 1: of sort of selecting. So I think you were very

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Speaker 1: aware of how many faces each of us really has.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder how that affects girls, and I wondering

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Speaker 1: specifically if they're sort of putting it together that Okay, wait,

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Speaker 1: it takes me twenty times and the sort of unnatural

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Speaker 1: face posts to come up with the portraits that I

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Speaker 1: like that must be true of everyone else. And I

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Speaker 1: haven't talked to enough young women to really say how

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Speaker 1: much the Internet has sort of change them on the whole,

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Speaker 1: paired to my generation. I'm dirty fixed now, um I was,

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Speaker 1: and I really should be talking to young women, and

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Speaker 1: I intend to for the book, because they have this

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Speaker 1: really sophisticated knowledge of photo manipulation and the you know,

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Speaker 1: the sort of background of you know, portrait sharing and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But I don't know which way

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Speaker 1: it's gonna turn. I mean, it could be that they

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Speaker 1: begin to see images as you know, just being in

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Speaker 1: a realm of fantasy without it being amazing more. Or

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Speaker 1: maybe they'll see it as being aspirational, that as sort

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Speaker 1: of I grew up thinking of images as being. But

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Speaker 1: maybe they'll see it being something that's more doable through

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Speaker 1: their own means, like, Okay, there's this heritatorial that I

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Speaker 1: can click on on YouTube, and now I can make

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Speaker 1: my hair look just like that. And they really can

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Speaker 1: in a way that we couldn't, you know. Struggling to

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Speaker 1: the pages of seventeen trying to create this elaborate hair

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Speaker 1: style that didn't really work. Um, so I'm really I'm

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Speaker 1: curious to see how it's gonna go with young women.

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Speaker 1: Something that I'm really curious about is I'm wondering, how,

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Speaker 1: know how this sort of targeted internet mark think it's

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Speaker 1: going to influence teen girls and they're sending habits. I

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Speaker 1: mean when I was growing up, it was like, well,

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Speaker 1: whatever seventeen magazine said might be cool or whatever with

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Speaker 1: the kmart, that was kind of it. So I'm picturing

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Speaker 1: this eleven year old girl doing this photo search for

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, how how do you shave

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Speaker 1: your under arms? And then she's having like twelve products

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Speaker 1: advertised to her directly to her, directly to what she

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Speaker 1: was rooting for for weeks on end. And I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: how that's gonna if they're gonna, you know, become more

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Speaker 1: cynical to advertising, or if they're going to be more

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Speaker 1: vulnerable to it, because it really is targeted just to

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Speaker 1: day that exactly what they're looking for, So, um, that

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Speaker 1: could go out a way as well. Yeah, it seems

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Speaker 1: like it's such a double edged sword because on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, you know, like you were talking about, young

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Speaker 1: girls growing up today are so savvy in terms of

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Speaker 1: the tools they can use for self presentation and like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, a twelve year old can probably get along

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Speaker 1: better on Photoshop than I can at this point. And um,

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Speaker 1: there's that and also the greater awareness of knowing, like

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Speaker 1: you said, like the manipulation that goes into a lot

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Speaker 1: of the you know, modeling images that we see. But

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Speaker 1: then at the same time, you know, it's the negative

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Speaker 1: side of things, like the proliferation of thinspo and how

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Speaker 1: all of that is just like feeding into the same cycles.

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Speaker 1: But then you also have you know, all of these

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Speaker 1: quirkier beauty blogs that are popping up that you know,

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Speaker 1: offer girls in appreciation, you know, outside of marms. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's such a it's such a fascinating mixed

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Speaker 1: bag that it seems like, I don't know. Unfortunately, it

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Speaker 1: might take some time as they this first generation to

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Speaker 1: really age with the Internet from cradle to grave, I guess, um,

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Speaker 1: to see how it's going to shake out. Because I

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Speaker 1: hadn't thought about that aspect of the On top of

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Speaker 1: all of that, the targeted advertising. Yeah, I only started

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Speaker 1: thinking about that recently, I wish I was looking for

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Speaker 1: a braw and all of a sudden I was on

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Speaker 1: near and webs through dot com and all these brawns

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Speaker 1: were popping up, and I was like, well, and I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty naive about this stuff, so I was like, how

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Speaker 1: did they know? You know? And then I was like, oh, wait, cookies.

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Speaker 1: That cookie they're all about. Um it's I feel like,

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Speaker 1: just in the past year, it's been happening more and

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Speaker 1: more like now all my websites still have brawls all

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Speaker 1: over them. I don't feel like I look for balls

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Speaker 1: that oft, but apparently I do well. Speaking of advertising,

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Speaker 1: um let's talk about Dove's Real Beauty campaign because with

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Speaker 1: the composite sketch series that they put out recently went viral,

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Speaker 1: and at first it was it was so fascinating to

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Speaker 1: watch the internet feedback from it, because at first it was, oh,

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Speaker 1: look at this really clever, you know, poignant portrayal of

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Speaker 1: how women see themselves and perceive their own own beauty,

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Speaker 1: and then it's the dust settled a little bit. It

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Speaker 1: was like, wait a minute, there's some deeper stuff going

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Speaker 1: on here that might not be um so wonderful for women,

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Speaker 1: um so I kind of wanted to to get your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on whether or not companies or businesses, advertisers have

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Speaker 1: kind of busted the beauty myth in a way, if

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Speaker 1: you know, they're kind of like in on it and

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Speaker 1: are now using it against us, if that makes sense. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: like they sort of cracked this code that that that

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Speaker 1: the sentiment that has been out there because women have

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Speaker 1: been this satisfied for quite some time with the way

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Speaker 1: that we've been portrayed, you know, specifically through advertising, but

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Speaker 1: in all aspects of the media. Um, there's been a

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Speaker 1: long tradition of vocal sort of resistance and pointing out, hey,

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Speaker 1: that's not cool. I don't like that women you know,

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Speaker 1: common all shapes from sizes and colors, et cetera. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like Dove hack hacked about this

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Speaker 1: satisfaction and they did. They did a large studies. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think, I guess in two thousand four, which is

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Speaker 1: when the campaign begin I there was a good study

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Speaker 1: was really m It was actually really fascinating to look

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Speaker 1: at the numbers of it. But what I think that

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Speaker 1: they've done by sort of leveraging the ideas of the

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Speaker 1: beauty myths for their own purposes is I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: really using the duty myth against women, just like traditional

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Speaker 1: advertising is. You know, the message might be better, the

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Speaker 1: message might leave you feeling smiling and happy and proud

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Speaker 1: or you know, emotional interior, but you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a somewhat more positive response that we get to

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Speaker 1: the Dove ads. Then we get to something like, oh,

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Speaker 1: don't hate me because I'm beautiful. But the same idea

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Speaker 1: of women not liking how they look is being used

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Speaker 1: against women, and I guess I did find that sort

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Speaker 1: of inherently problematic. But that said, you know, I heard

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Speaker 1: from a lot of readers who really responded positively to

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Speaker 1: that campaign. They were saying, yeah, yeah, I see your

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Speaker 1: point on this intellectual level that come on, this is

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Speaker 1: so much better than what we're getting in. But my

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Speaker 1: mom actually sort of wrote me a schooling email like

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Speaker 1: wooden girl up. But because I grew up with you,

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Speaker 1: you don't know how easy you have it. And I

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Speaker 1: am so things that this campaign is out there. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I personally am cynical about it, but I'm

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Speaker 1: sort of cynical about all advertising because it you know,

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Speaker 1: it has this very you know, the goal is to

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Speaker 1: sell us stuff and nothing more. Um, but I guess

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Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways there are assign of progress.

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Speaker 1: Not so much that the content of the ads as progressive,

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Speaker 1: because I don't really think it is, but there was

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Speaker 1: so to their consumers. There was some uni crypts, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's important. I mean, I think it's just,

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Speaker 1: like you pointed out, just as intriguing of the fact

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Speaker 1: that this video went viral is the fact that that

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Speaker 1: the resistance to it went virals. You know, someone on

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Speaker 1: Tumbler wrote a really eloquent response about you know, the

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Speaker 1: cybers them and sort of you know, the domination of

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Speaker 1: white women and it, you know, just a pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: good points and that went viral too, And I think

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Speaker 1: that that's so encouraging that just as quick as the

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Speaker 1: beating industry sort of turning the beating this around on

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Speaker 1: us in a totally different way, people are saying wait,

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Speaker 1: you know, hold on a second, and people are paying

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Speaker 1: attention to that. I think that's the really important. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting that it seems like and maybe

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Speaker 1: it's maybe it's the byproduct of the Internet and just

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Speaker 1: being connected on you know, social media, but it does

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Speaker 1: seem like we're having conversations about beauty in ways, in

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Speaker 1: deeper ways, maybe than we ever have before. It's kind of, um,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting just how much I thought we are, you know,

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Speaker 1: really collectively having towards representations of beauty that we you know,

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Speaker 1: these kinds of things can go viral. So kind of

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Speaker 1: along the lines too of the Dove Real Beauty campaign

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Speaker 1: that reminded me of the recent backlash against the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Abercrombie and Fitch talking about how, you know, saying

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Speaker 1: very nasty things about the kinds of customers that he

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Speaker 1: didn't want um in in his clothes and uh so

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Speaker 1: kind of on the upside, I guess for um, just

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Speaker 1: like the reaction against that, and then also things like

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Speaker 1: Dove Real Beauty, where you know, you see women of

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Speaker 1: more shapes and sizes. At least do you think that

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Speaker 1: possibly we're at least broadening our representation of beauty. I

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Speaker 1: think what we are beginning to see is people sort

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Speaker 1: of putting it together that oh wait a second, the

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Speaker 1: people that I find attractive in real life aren't just

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Speaker 1: this one mold. I think there's I tatiously reality kind

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Speaker 1: of televisions and anything positive for our society. But maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe there is something to be said to that. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, and that that's sort of an interesting case anyway. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think what we're seeing is maybe it's the connection

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Speaker 1: between the Internet and you know, other forms of media. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that people are sort of recognizing that they're not weird

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Speaker 1: for finding something other than the mainstream beauty of healing. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: as the you know, the beauty industry continues expanding its

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Speaker 1: reach into the mail market, do you think that we

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Speaker 1: would ever see a dub real beauty esque campaign for

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Speaker 1: male targeted cosmetics? Say, I mean, do you think it

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Speaker 1: will ever kind of get to that point with the

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Speaker 1: expansion of male beauty sort of? Yeah? Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: don't think that it does like campaign would work on

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Speaker 1: them because they would go against the very idea of

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Speaker 1: these methods out there. I don't think that we see

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Speaker 1: men as being passive enough as consumers to sort of

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Speaker 1: make that tactic work. Um. I don't think that we

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Speaker 1: would ever any time soon certainly be at the point

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Speaker 1: where we would sort of grant men the tenderness that

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Speaker 1: we grant women as far as their vulnerability surrounding their books.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think that's a positive thing. But that

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, men are still maybe one step ahead

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Speaker 1: of the game. I don't know. I really don't know.

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Speaker 1: So talking more broadly about um, women and beauty and feminism,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like the intersection of beauty and feminism

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Speaker 1: can be so times a little bit confounding. Um uh.

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Speaker 1: In one of your thoughts on a word post that

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Speaker 1: you did, you brought up something that has has irked

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Speaker 1: me as well, and it's how The New York Times

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Speaker 1: always shoves its women focused articles in a style section.

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Speaker 1: And um, I mean do you think that it does

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Speaker 1: at the service to women and gender equity at large too,

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Speaker 1: always cluster women so closely to beauty. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: just it's it's the New York Times, but it's so

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Speaker 1: many other places as well, where if you want to

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Speaker 1: find something the content the articles reports about women, it's

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Speaker 1: always in a beauty or style section exactly. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's a problematic word here is always um. And

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Speaker 1: of course it's not always their stories about women in

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Speaker 1: general interessections as well, but the balance is way off

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Speaker 1: in some ways. I really actually like the sort of

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Speaker 1: real news about women in the file section. I almost

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Speaker 1: feel like it's sort of a cover way of reaching

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Speaker 1: out to women, because then and do make it the

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Speaker 1: majority of readers of the sort of soft news sections.

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Speaker 1: And so I sort of like the idea of sort

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Speaker 1: of communicating to women about important issues in a sort

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Speaker 1: of almost backhanded or the subtle, a subtler way and

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Speaker 1: saying you know this new we're trying to reach you.

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Speaker 1: And I sort of actually really appreciate that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I worked in women's magazines for ten years and that

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Speaker 1: was sort of one of my reading I was very

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Speaker 1: conflicted about my work during my time there, but that

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00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: was one reason that I stayed, is that I liked

431
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: the idea of women who otherwise wouldn't be getting this

432
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: sort of information getting it, even if it was sort

433
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: of coded with a lot of stuff that I do

434
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: know I couldn't care less about UM. But that said, yeah,

435
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: it happens so often. Like actually one of my blog

436
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: it is indicated through I less I called The New Inquiry,

437
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: which is a journal of criticism and it's not a

438
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 1: quote unquote woman sight, but it happens to be largely

439
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: run by women. Is founded by three women, about half

440
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: the staff for women UM and The New York Times

441
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: profiles the men put them into in the final section.

442
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: And then a year later, UM magazine has somewhat similar

443
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: contents called Jacket and which is a great magazine. And

444
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: it wasn't their fault, but they were probably into the

445
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 1: book section there they're the right up and when in

446
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: the book section it was like, wait a second, we're

447
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: the same kind of magazine. We're putting these ideas out

448
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: there were political or critical, and yet the guys got

449
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: their legitimate section and that was sort of a well

450
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do sort of thing. Um, we

451
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: were thrilled to be getting the publicity, and it's sort

452
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: of wish that it hadn't come at I don't want

453
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: to see at the expense of being taken seriously because

454
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: we were taking more seriously after that that it was

455
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: just sort of a shame I guess overall. Um, Well, then,

456
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: kind of more directly than talking about the issue of feminism,

457
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that beauty culture is sort

458
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: of at a directly at odds with it? Like how

459
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: how do how do the two get along? Well, I

460
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: think that if he goes like the idea that feminism

461
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: is I think it was Rebecca west Is said that

462
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: feminism is a radical notion that women are people. Then

463
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 1: feminism is not at odds of beautic culture because you know,

464
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: it's sort of this, there's this long human history of

465
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: self adornment and wanting to look better, and that's you know,

466
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: been true across you know, basically as long as humans

467
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: have been around. So you know, on sort of a

468
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: base level is beauty culture and at also feminism. No,

469
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: but that said, the beauty industry has a long history

470
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: of taking an anti feminist attack, sort of getting women

471
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: against against each other again, you know, don't hate me

472
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: because I'm beautiful, or encouraging women to sort of treat

473
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: their looks as you know, their personal capital. And certainly

474
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: beauty culture can be used for anti feminist means. And

475
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: you know, most importantly, as was written about in The Duty,

476
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: this beauty can sort of turn into this enormous siphon

477
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: of women's energies and that kind of keeps us in

478
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: this you know, varying degree of oppression. Um, I guess

479
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: all that said, I mean clearly I am a feminist

480
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: and I write almost exclusively about beauty on The Beheld,

481
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: and so I can't see that too it being completely

482
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: at odds, and I sort of had a hard time

483
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: really reconciling this in my mind, even though I was

484
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: doing this work and writing about it and believing about it.

485
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: And then I read something that one of my colleagues wrote,

486
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: Sally McGraw, who who writes them Already Pretty, and she said,

487
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: I want to arm you with confidence in your body

488
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: and your styles, so you can stop worrying about your

489
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: outward presentation and focus on what's important. And I love

490
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: that because I think that our looks can become a

491
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: distraction to us. They can be a source of celebration,

492
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: of course too, but they can also be a distraction.

493
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: And we we've all had that moment when we're in

494
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: an interview or something and we're like, oh my gosh,

495
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: my lipstick spirit mids looks six spird or you know,

496
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: my hair looks weird, or any of those sort of things,

497
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: and that kind of takes away from our ability to

498
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: be in the moment and to do the most effective

499
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: works that we can for things that are ultimately more

500
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: important than beauty. Um. Yeah, it's almost like I wonder

501
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: if there's a self check that we can do of

502
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 1: of some line of like okay, well, now you know

503
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: a line between this is an okay amount of time

504
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: to consider my outward appearance, and this is when it's

505
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: becoming too much. Yeah, I don't know if there's sort

506
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: of a you know, quick litmus test that we can

507
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: do and find out sort of what falls in line

508
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: with our ideals and what doesn't, because it's easy to

509
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: take anything and be like, well, I'm doing it for me.

510
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard a lot of women, my self included,

511
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: say well, I'm doing you know, this particular beauty work.

512
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: It is a very pleasant or whatever. I'm doing this

513
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: for me, and that sort of makes it okay. And

514
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: I guess what I would challenge women to do is

515
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: to take it away from themselves for a while, working

516
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: firstly to add it on. I mean I did. Um.

517
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: This has been written about it way too much in

518
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: the media from by my opinion, but um, I did

519
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: a mirror fast where I didn't look in the mirror

520
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: for a month. And the point wasn't to feel better

521
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: about my looks or something at this point, was to

522
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: see what investment I was actually making in the mirror.

523
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: And I learned a lot about that by not letting

524
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: myself look at myself in the mirror for a month,

525
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: and it sort of changed the way that I conceive

526
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: of the mirror and the way that I understand my reflection.

527
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: So I would say, you know what, if you're sort

528
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: of on the edge about something like, gosh, I'm spending

529
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: a lot of time or money or energy on this thing,

530
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: sort of taken away from yourself. And conversely, there's a

531
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: blogger called a Courtney who writes a blog called Those Graces,

532
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: and she sort of added all in beauty work for herself.

533
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: She did something called the Red List Project, where every

534
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: day for a month, you are Red listick, which for

535
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: someone who wears a Red listick all the time doesn't

536
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: sound like definite of a deal that like her, whenever

537
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: I wear LISTI specifically red lipstick, I'm really aware of

538
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: how I look. I'm really aware that I'm sort of saying,

539
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: look at me, pay attention to me, and that can

540
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: be sort of intimidating. And she sort of jumped outside

541
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: of her comfort zone by doing that, So I mean

542
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: it can really work either way, and that I would

543
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: classify that experiment as something that could be something its

544
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,719
Speaker 1: depending on her motivation. So you know, that's the closest

545
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: thing I could think of was for its for sort

546
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: of a you know, a guide to women. When you

547
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: did the marafest, did you afterwards see yourself differently, noticed

548
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: different things about your face or kind of how you

549
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: felt when you looked in the mirror. I, you know,

550
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: the thing that I noticed was that I had not

551
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: really been seeing the way that I looked. I had

552
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: been either seeing the way that I felt, or been

553
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: seeing some sort of projection of what I wanted to see,

554
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: what I feared seeing. Um. In fact, during the experiment,

555
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: at one point I was on an elevator and elevator

556
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: doors opened up and right in front of me with

557
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: a mirror, and I, you know, so I saw myself

558
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: and I looked away immediately. The first thing in that

559
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: foot second before I looked away, I was like, Wow,

560
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm the older than I thought, and not in a

561
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 1: bad way, not like, oh my gosh, I'm so wrinkly

562
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: sort of thing. But I saw a woman who looks

563
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: thirty five years old, and I sort of hadn't seen

564
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: a thirtyfial moment. And I'm here before because I generally

565
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: knew when there was going to be a mirror, and

566
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: so I would sort of like, there's agree that would

567
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: tell myself to expect something a little softer, you know,

568
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: something without the wrinkles that I had acquired, or the

569
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, the few gray hairs I have or whatever.

570
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: And so I think after the mirror fest, I sort

571
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: of had to realize that, you know, what, what I'm

572
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: seeing isn't necessarily what's there, and that's not you know,

573
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: I still look in the mirror and probably see something

574
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: different than what the rest of the world sees. But

575
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 1: it was sort of a big clue to me that

576
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: that the two are not necessarily the same thing. Um.

577
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: Something that I've seen some bloggers write about UM is

578
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: sort of rendering beauty is something that is a place

579
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: of true joy and maybe experimentation or fantasy or play.

580
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: And I've never really worn make up in that way.

581
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: I tend to just sort of wear my little blossom

582
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: and concealer or whatever. But I have some friends who

583
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: do these wild things with eyeliner or eyeshadow, and I

584
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: just I look at that and like that just seems

585
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: so literalating. Really, I mean, just just talk about, you know,

586
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: sort of forming your own identity, a very distinct identity.

587
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of room in there

588
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: for sort of exploration and exploration and awareness. Is it

589
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: can be a part of sort of a feminist ethos.

590
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: I think sometimes that we want to tip beauty culture

591
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: and feminism and get speak against each other because it

592
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: sort of goes against the idea of what non feminists

593
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: thinks feminism is about. I know plenty of theeminists are

594
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: conflicted about their own beauty work, myself included, but I

595
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: hear it more from people who wouldn't use the efford

596
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: to describe themselves. And it sort of further to the

597
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: idea that there's this perfect feminist out there where, like

598
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: you know, makes menstrual art only shopped a well but

599
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: known grocery stores or whatever. Um Like. I don't think

600
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: it's the end of the world if you do some

601
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: movie work that isn't feminists. I mean, I recently just

602
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: might be t m I that I recently discovered the

603
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: really a Bikini Acts and I wouldn't call it, and

604
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: I'll be writing about this soon, I wouldn't call it

605
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: anti feminists. For me to sort of be like, well,

606
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: this is a feminist back would you know, I'd have

607
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: to do some crazy, you know, backbends to make that work.

608
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: So Yeah, it's not feminist by any means, But does

609
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: that make me somehow less committed to my politics? Like

610
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that it does, so yeah, and that's

611
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: such a good point. I mean, the whole concept of

612
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: or dismantling, at least the concept of a perfect feminist,

613
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: because like you said, it really doesn't exist. And if

614
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like there would be something

615
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: massively wrong with the entire philosophy if how my face

616
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: looked in the amount of cosmetics on it determined my

617
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: level of commitment to gender equality. Um. So yeah, I'm

618
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: really I'm glad that you brought that up well in

619
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: a compelling post about Wait think over at the blog

620
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: what would Phoebe do? That you too? In a post um,

621
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: Phoebe wrote, quote, the goal shouldn't be for all women

622
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: to look in the mirror and see beautiful. It's for

623
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 1: beautiful not to be the main important quality in most

624
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: women's lives, not even most young women. And that that

625
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: quote really struck me, and I kind of want to

626
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on whether or not you agreed with

627
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: that and sort of the thinking of beauty and this

628
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: larger sense. Yeah, I think Phoebe was absolutely spot on

629
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: with that. Um, Beauty absolutely shouldn't be the most important

630
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: quality for anyone, not even people who were beautiful for

631
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: a living. I mean, like I make my living through words,

632
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: but I don't consider, you know, my word smithing ability

633
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: is to be my most important quality as a human being. Um.

634
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: But that said, I think you know, I would make

635
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: the distinction, and I think Phobe would agree, But I

636
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: don't want to speak for her that to pretend that

637
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: beauty doesn't have a place in the realm of big

638
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 1: important things in our life isn't necessarily helpful either, because

639
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: I mean, most of us do want to be considered

640
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: beautiful in some way, so and there's something about physical

641
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: beauty that it does drive us. And I don't want

642
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: to ever dismiss that. I don't think Phoebe is doing that.

643
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: He is trying to dismiss it. Um that you know,

644
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: I worry some times about saying, well, beauty, beauty shouldn't

645
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: be considered, you know, important, It should not be considered

646
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: the most important quality. But if they it shouldn't be

647
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: considered important either. Is part of dismissive of human history,

648
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: specifically of women's history. I mean, try telling a third

649
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: new year old girl that beauty isn't important, like she knows,

650
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: she knows better, and you'd be you'd be essentially lying

651
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: to her if you said that it wasn't important. Yeah. Sorry,

652
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: I got started thinking about that very fact of the

653
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: idea of someone when I was thirteen telling me that

654
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: that being pretty didn't matter at all, and I would

655
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: laugh in their face. Even in adulthood. There are so

656
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: many studies that demonstrate that, you know, whether or not

657
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: we agree with all of the messages, perhaps that the

658
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: beauty industry might direct our way in order to sell

659
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: products from time to time. Beauty in and of itself

660
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: does make a difference in terms of just our basic

661
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: self presentation and all of the messages that are attached

662
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: to that, in terms of how we present ourselves to

663
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: the world, levels of confidence, competence. Um. So, I feel

664
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: like it's you know, it's not something that we should

665
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: necessarily have to escape as women. But maybe maybe the

666
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 1: goal is for women to uh learn how to live

667
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: with it more amicably and just always fighting against it

668
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: somehow exactly Right now, it's a really it can be

669
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: a really falt relationship right now. And I would say,

670
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: if if there was a goal that I would have

671
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: in mind if for that relationship to not be full

672
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: of tent instead be either sort of a neutral place

673
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: of self maintenance. You know, I don't think most of

674
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: the things things twice about, you know, showering or whatever,

675
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: so you know, it could go more more in that direction,

676
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: or to see it at the place of beauty and

677
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: joy and pleasure in our lives, you know, And that's

678
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: going to vary from person to person, speaking though of

679
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, telling a thirteen year old girl that the

680
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: beauty doesn't matter. Um, if you could go back and

681
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: tell your younger self anything about beauty, all of the

682
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: wisdom that you have now gleaned, what would you what

683
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: would you tell a young girl in terms of sort

684
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: of how to how to live in the world and

685
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: deal with this, you know, the issue of beauty and

686
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: all of that. You know. There's actually two sort of

687
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: aside to that point. Um. On one hand, I think

688
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: I would just like to tell her nobody is paying

689
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: nearly as much attention to the way that you look

690
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: as you are. You know, I sort of went through

691
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm it's still a very self

692
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: conscious person. And I think I sort of went through

693
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: life thinking that everyone thought every little flaw on me

694
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: and you know, disgusted by it or whatever, not realizing

695
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: how I've been really self involved. That was, um so

696
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: like to sort of tell the thirteen year old me that.

697
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: But in some ways, I'd also sort of like my

698
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: throuteen parts of my thirteen year old self to sort

699
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: of have stayed a live within me throughout the rest

700
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: of my teams in my twenties. Um Like, I'm thinking

701
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: of this wat I read it thost of my blogs

702
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: that some time ago, when I was twelve years old,

703
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to enter the seventeen modeling contest. It's like,

704
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, and enter and you could win, you know,

705
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: you could have your picture on the cover of seventeen.

706
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, most twelve year olds

707
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: were awkward looking, and I was certainly no exception. Um

708
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: So I really thought I would win this thing. And

709
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: then I really was just like, well, of course I'm

710
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: gonna win. I didn't I wouldn't dare tell anyone that.

711
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: But then it was just part of me that really

712
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: just listen to the air and thought what I was there.

713
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: It was sensational, you know, and it's funny looking at

714
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: pictures on myself as self like I was. I was

715
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: really funny poaching. But there was a part there was

716
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: a sort of pride in myself that was vibrant and

717
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: a lie is that lived alongside that explicit self consciousness

718
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: and alongside you know, the hours I would spend in

719
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: front of the mirror sort of trying to fix everything

720
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: that I thought was wrong. I mean, those those sides

721
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: of my self code assisted pretty strongly at that age,

722
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: and I think I learned to sort of pamp down

723
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: that sort of prideful, enthusiastic part of myself. And I

724
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: guess I kind of wish that I had kept that

725
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: part of myself a little more a live because a

726
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: comparty perhaps I certainly you wouldn't want to try to

727
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: make it as a model or anything, and talk to

728
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: me to that would not gone well. Um, But there

729
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: was something sort of I looked back in that with

730
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: sort of like sad fondness for that girl who saw

731
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: that in herself, and I wish it had sort of

732
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: stayed alive so longer. Well, I can only imagine hearing

733
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 1: that about that self confidence that you had at such

734
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: a young age, that it must have been influenced in

735
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: some part perhaps by you know, older women and your life,

736
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: such as your mom um. And you know, your mom

737
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: did a guest post for the beheld on Mother's Day.

738
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: And also since this is stuff mom never told you, um,

739
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: in the reverse of that, what did what did your

740
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: mom teach you about about beauty as you were growing up?

741
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: This sounds like it's main spirit, but it's not. She's

742
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: taught me absolutely nothing. And that was sort of deliberate

743
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: on her part. Um. I think she was really resisted.

744
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: She didn't want any part of my self esteemed to

745
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: be invested in my looks, and that was a really strong,

746
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, wise choice for her to make. And so

747
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: so her sort of tactic was to not when we

748
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: talk about it, I mean she talked about you know,

749
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: she pointed out on realistic images to me, like I remember,

750
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: we came up with a term trick photography to talk

751
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: about photo retouching, you know, So she'd see, you know,

752
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: I'd see a billboard and say, oh, that's me, and

753
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: she'd say, well, you know what that is, and I'd

754
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: say trick photography. So you know, I was five years

755
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: old and talking about this. So that was that was me.

756
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: But that said, beauty was important. It was a part

757
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: of my life, it was a part of everyone's life,

758
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: and I sort of never addressing it directly. I was

759
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: sort of left to come of my own up with

760
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: my own sort of weird perspective, which is probably why

761
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: I thought I could enter and win the seventeen modeling contest,

762
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: for example. Um And so I don't want to fault

763
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: my mother for that, certainly, because you know, she she

764
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: had a pretty strong She was a very consistent perspective

765
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: throughout my life, and that's you know, I appreciate that enormously.

766
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: But there weren't really a lot of direct messages about beauty.

767
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: The message I got was that it doesn't matter, and

768
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: it shouldn't matter. But you know, I sort of knew

769
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: better as well. It sounds like she definitely did a

770
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: did a great job with all of them. Um. Well,

771
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: just to wrap up this conversation, Um, the Beheld is

772
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: now on its way into book form? Is that the

773
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: right way to to pose it? Somewhat? Yeah, I'll be definitely, Um,

774
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: I yes, I'm probably I'm writing a book. It will

775
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: be published by Feminist Schuster in the spring of and

776
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: it will deal with many of the themes that I

777
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: write about all my blog. But my blog is sort

778
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: of excwed a little academics sometimes, and it's definitely explicitly feminist,

779
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: and the book will be a little bit more general.

780
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it'll still appeal to analytic types, and I

781
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: mean I'm a feminist, so it's going to be from

782
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: a feminist perspective. But I'm really writing it for the

783
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: reader who might not identify herself for himself as a feminist,

784
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: but it's sort of looking to develop their own nuanced

785
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: thinking in the way that beauty played that in their

786
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: own lives. So yeah, that's that's what I'm working on

787
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: right now. That's sort of the big projects going on.

788
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: I'm really tryed for it. Well. I for one, was

789
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: completely blown away and full of warm and fuzzy feelings

790
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: after listening to that interview, because I think Autumn is fantastic.

791
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: I think your conversation with her was great. Kristen and I,

792
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: for one, you know, she talks about re examining be

793
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: d and and and beauty in our culture. I'm grateful

794
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: that she is one of the people who is leading

795
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: that discussion and that re examination. Absolutely, I hadn't realized

796
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: that the beauty myth came out, and think about how

797
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: much has changed in our beauty culture, how we consume it,

798
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: how it's constantly there with the Internet, with advertising, um,

799
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: and even just the tactics of beauty advertising like we

800
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: talked about. So I am fully confident that Autumn will

801
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: maybe offer us a really good sort of update perhaps

802
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: on the beauty myth. So I can't wait to see

803
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: what she does with that. But again, you should definitely

804
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: check out her website, The Beheld It's the dash beheld

805
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 1: dot com, follow her on Twitter at the underscore Beheld UM.

806
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, thanks to Autumn for taking the time to

807
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: talk with us. I really appreciated her her insights and

808
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: knowledge and for just being a really cool woman. Yeah,

809
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: we love cool women. We have you love cool women.

810
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: And for anyone who has any feedback, any thoughts on

811
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 1: beauty anything that we were talking about. UM, I'll also

812
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: be curious to here if anyone has any response about

813
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: the especially about the Dove Real beauty campaign and sort

814
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: of that idea of whether marketers have sort of taken

815
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: the beauty myth and turned it against us a little bit. Uh,

816
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: let us know your thoughts. Mom, stuff a Discovery dot

817
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can tweet us as

818
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: well at Mom's Stuff podcast or send us a message

819
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages this year.

820
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: When we get right back from a quick break and

821
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: now back to our letters, We've got a couple of

822
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: notes here about our episode on Blarbara Walters, who was

823
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: retiring soon, and I've you know what I've got. Barbara

824
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: Walters would have a lot to say about beauty. I

825
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: bet you would, because is what we talked about in

826
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: that episode about how she was surprised when she got

827
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: tapped for the desk job on the Today Show because

828
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: before that it only been models, right, and she wasn't

829
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: a model? What do you know? Uh? So Wayne wrote

830
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: in saying ladies, I appreciate the topics that you discuss.

831
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: Thank you Wayne. As a person in business, I have

832
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: found value in both episodes on Martha Stewart and Barbara

833
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: Walters that transcend gender. It provides a clear precedent on

834
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: making the most of your career. They become characters of

835
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: themselves and their real contributions are less frequently heard of.

836
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: Now that I'm informed, I respect their contribution and say

837
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: He offers a side note question, are those Jack Threads

838
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: ads because you have that many fellas listening? Wayne, We

839
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: do have a number of guys listening. We do, I

840
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: say about what a quarter of our audience. Third of

841
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: our audience are fellows, just like you, Wayne. But you

842
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 1: know why we have those Jackgreads ads because like Jack Dreads,

843
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: we agree that payingful price is for suckers. Okay, I

844
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: have one here from Marianna. She says that I just

845
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: finished the Barbara Walters podcast. Good job, ladies, thank you, thanks.

846
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: She says, I really liked it. I haven't seen the

847
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: view since Lisa Lang and marredth Viera left the show.

848
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: I tried watching it not too long ago, and I

849
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: found Barbara was still informative, very good and entertaining, but

850
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: not enough to compensate for irrational ramblings of Elizabeth Hasselbeck

851
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: and the tragically unfunny comedy of Whoopee and enjoy Bahar. Sorry,

852
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: she says, I have no idea who might replace Barbara,

853
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: but other than Anne Curry or Terry Gross, I'm not

854
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: giving the show a second chance. In a perfect world,

855
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: Barbara's seat would be filled by Mindy Kaling with co host,

856
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: Danika mckeller, Kristen and Caroline Hey, and most importantly Julie

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Speaker 1: Douglas from Stuff to Blow Your Mind because we need

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Speaker 1: women capable of discussing science on TV. I would watch

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