1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. This is part two two two 4 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: two of a continued series on Tiny Subs and d Day, 5 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: and I just couldn't be more excited to continue. 6 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: That's my favorite stunt Tumble Pilot's album Tiny Subs and 7 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: d Day No I does tiny music songs from the 8 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: Vatican Gift Show, which also could be the title of 9 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: a Ridiculous History episode. 10 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, yeah, and I've been bowling you're an old 11 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Brown's me. We're in media arrests with an astonishing story 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: that has everything. A little bit of ridiculous crime, some 13 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: mad science, some skillduggery, and classified documents and of course 14 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: the ever present threat of death. 15 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: Let's jump right in or dive from I guess. 16 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: Now. 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: With this setup, we have learned about the guy's selfish 18 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: motives for asking Rachel all these questions. We've also learned that, 19 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: and thank you Rachel, We've also learned that there was 20 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: a tremendous opportunity, there was immense danger, and therefore there 21 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: was a profound need for someone to figure out what 22 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: the heck was going on, and this is maybe where 23 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: Rachel we introduce our characters, our human elements. We gave 24 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: a little foreshadowing. 25 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: Before pleased a love story. 26 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 4: The love story. 27 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a little science nerd love story in there. 28 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 3: So we already talked about jbs hel Dane. He is 29 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 3: our leader of this genetics lab at UCL Now. One 30 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: of the things that jbs hel Dane did, and I 31 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: don't want to make him sound too much like a glossy, 32 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 3: shiny superhero, he was a complicated and nuanced person. He 33 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: made a lot of people mad in his time, but 34 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 3: I think that complicated people can also still do really 35 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 3: great things. One of the amazing things that he did 36 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 3: was when Hitler got elected in nineteen thirty three, which 37 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 3: again Hitler some problems. I have notes. Yes, wow, he 38 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 3: was very Yeah he was there. I mean yes, yes, 39 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 3: he was very open at the time of his election 40 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 3: that he blamed Jewish people for all of the problems 41 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 3: in Germany. It was so effective for him to create 42 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: a scapegoaded other especially of this Jewish population that didn't 43 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 3: necessarly have a huge platform to fight back, and so 44 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 3: he really manipulated that in order to get elected, and 45 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: when he did a huge number of people thought, oh, 46 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: it was just talk, He's not actually going to try 47 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: and do this stuff, like this was just election talk. 48 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 3: But a lot of other people believed him. Now what 49 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 3: JBS how Dane did was he believed him. And so 50 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: immediately one of his efforts that he started participating in 51 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: as much as he could was bringing over Jewish scientists 52 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: from Germany as refugees. So he worked with an American 53 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 3: foundation that still exists, called the Rockefeller Foundation, and they 54 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: were willing to provide some of the money for the 55 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 3: labor funding, and then how Dan was willing to provide 56 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 3: them a lab home. And since he could be like, hey, 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 3: they have a job here, that let them legally immigrate 58 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: over to England and bring their families to a place 59 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: where he it was safer, you know, obviously the blitz later, 60 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: but it was safer than being a Jewish family in Germany. 61 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: And so he has at this point filled his lab 62 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: mostly with Jewish refugee scientists. And one of the things 63 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: that he also started doing was he recognized that the people, 64 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: the scientists who are already famous, who were very well established, 65 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: would have an easy time getting out and sure enough 66 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: they did, so he started looking for fresh scientists and 67 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: young graduates because he was like, these are the ones 68 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 3: that need help. And so he's got this lab full 69 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: of young, very eager, excited to be in England Jewish 70 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: refugee scientists. One of them is this woman named Ursula Phillip, 71 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 3: who I have to shout out by name because she 72 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: is I feel like my historical sister one of When 73 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 3: I finally found her daughter and interviewed her daughter, one 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: of the first things that her daughter said was that, like, 75 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: she used to be embarrassed because she came from this 76 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: family that was historically very wealthy, which she was clumsy, 77 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: and she would always spill food anytime they got her 78 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: nice clothes, she has food on herself. And I was like, yes, Ursula, 79 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: I see you, Yes, I am the same. So I 80 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 3: felt like I really related to her. And there had 81 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 3: been this kind of apocryphal story that when she fled, 82 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: she had to run from the Nazis so quickly that 83 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 3: she for like had to have somebody male her her 84 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: doctoral dissertation to her, and her daughter just started laughing 85 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 3: and she's like, no, she forgot it, like to pack it. 86 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: And I was like Ursula, I see you, so yeah, 87 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 3: so Ursula. Philip is an expert in genetics, as are 88 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 3: most of the people in this lab. Now at this time, 89 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: this is before Franklin and Creek had really discovered the 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 3: structure of DNA, so we they don't they suspect something 91 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: like DNA is influencing inheritance, but it hasn't been discovered yet. 92 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: So the way genetics was studying, and this is relevant 93 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: to d day, I swear I'll get there, like the 94 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: way Noel is like rolling his eyes is like shirt 95 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: pop pod math more, I do work in it. The 96 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: reason this is relevant is because the way that genetics 97 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: to study this time is through math and through studying 98 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 3: what happens on population levels. So if you have one 99 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: hundred fruit flies and they all have fruitfly babies, how 100 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: are their traits passed down to the next generation? How 101 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: many get red eyes, how many get black eyes? And 102 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: that is how they are looking at how these patterns 103 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: of inheritance occur generation to generation. Game exactly exactly that 104 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 3: the peapods, which if you don't if you don't know 105 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: the reference, it's like looking at wrinkled peas versus smooth 106 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: peas and purple flowers versus white flowers. This is a 107 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: classic experiment that you should have been tortured with in 108 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: high school biology. But this is one of the ways 109 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 3: that people were looking at dominant versus recessive genes and 110 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: how the ps were passing these different traits down. Yeah, 111 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: so same idea, but kicked up seven notches with advanced calculus, 112 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: looking at how traits occur across big populations. 113 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: So they're using the math to discern patterns or to 114 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: like kind of pull out those kind of stats. 115 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: Exactly and how groups will react to something. So for example, 116 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: if you make a change and you treat group A 117 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: of ducks differently and feed them something, then group B 118 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: of ducks and you count how many eggs each produce. 119 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 3: Can you compare those two groups and say, yes, the 120 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 3: difference was what I did with a reasonable degree of confidence, 121 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: or no, this is like within the bounds of random 122 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: chants like this, this is an amount of variation that 123 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: happens to random chance. So this is not a good 124 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: way to get my ducks to make more eggs. So 125 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: that's that's kind of what they're looking at. Or like 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: one of the famous ways that they did this is 127 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: they looked at the heights of schoolgirls, so they're like, 128 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: what height can we expect schoolgirls to be in these 129 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 3: London schools? Now, the reason this is relevant is because 130 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: every person is a little bit different from every other person, 131 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: even identical twins. You have what's called genetic and biological variability. 132 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 3: That's why Ben, you have a majestic mustache and I 133 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: do not. 134 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: My gosh, by the way, I'm in I'm in kind 135 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: of a cold war with my girlfriend over this one. 136 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 4: I'm probably you know what, battles. 137 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: Right right in support. 138 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:54,599 Speaker 4: We're starting to go stash me. 139 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: But yeah, either way, we're both people. But that's a 140 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 3: huge difference. 141 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: And this is also by the way of coming even 142 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: in what would say the early days of genetic science. 143 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: This is existing in the context of some very serious 144 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: and very problematic racial ideas disguised as fact. Right, yes, arguments, 145 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: absolutely right. 146 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 3: So there are two schools of thought at this time, 147 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: and both of them exist at UCL in warring genetics labs. 148 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: I am happy to say how Dan was on the 149 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: good side. He was the one who thought eugenics were wrong. 150 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 3: So he was like, no, no, there are differences, that 151 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: doesn't mean better. He was just like, yeah, so he 152 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 3: was on He was the lead warrior on the side 153 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: of anti eugenics. So this is a good like I said, 154 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 3: he he was occasionally a difficult person. He was known 155 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 3: for occasionally having explosive outbursts. He was very particular if 156 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: he if he liked you, it was because you could 157 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 3: talk to him about his group of science. Like if 158 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: he didn't like you, it was because you had like 159 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 3: told him no acrosst him right, and he would try 160 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: and make your life hell. You know, He's one of 161 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: those personalities. I don't have the expertise to see this, 162 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 3: but I do think it would be an interesting like 163 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 3: historical valuation of someone with like expertise and autism to 164 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: look at some of the stuff. But regardless, he was 165 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: undeniably brilliant and so yeah he He and Ronald Fisher, 166 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: who's the head of the you pro eugenic side, they 167 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 3: had to put their offices on opposite sides of campus 168 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 3: so that they wouldn't physically fight each other, Like, yeah, 169 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 3: they separated the cats so that they wouldn't get in 170 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: fistfights as on campus. Right about that. 171 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: This is something that we have to point out just 172 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: a quick pause here for anybody who is not familiar 173 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: with academia, there is often a stereotype of every every 174 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: expert being somewhat milk toast or you know, somewhat somewhat 175 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: passive in their interactions and. 176 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 5: The just and what what you're describing here, I think 177 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 5: gives lie to that stereotype and assumption. 178 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 4: Is it true that professors fight all the time. 179 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 3: I don't want to say they physically fight all the time, 180 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: but professors and academics and scientists more generally typically are 181 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: people who have decided to dedicate their entire lives to 182 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 3: their niche special interest. So it's like, I want to 183 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 3: do this sixty hours a week, so this is my 184 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: niche special interest. So you have to imagine that there 185 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 3: are professors who are checked out, like there are. Academia 186 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 3: is a very difficult environment a lot of the time, 187 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: and there are professors who get checked out for one 188 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 3: reason or the enda the other, and that's pretty universal. 189 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 3: But for the most part, they at least started with 190 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: the fiery passion and deep love of the topics they're. 191 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: Studying, and super dedicated and so endicated. 192 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 4: So this is like, it reminds me of. 193 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: Well, since we already said there was a right and 194 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: wrong side of this particular history of genetics. Yes, let's 195 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: call it Sith and Jedi, yes separated. 196 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, and I will tell you we can take 197 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: some like little shot in Fredic Glee when the blitz starts, 198 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 3: they tried like hell to evacuate the UCO campus, and 199 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 3: these two groups are the ones that just refused, and 200 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 3: they like they tried to turn off electricity, they tried 201 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 3: to turn off the gas, like trying everything to force. 202 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: They put up barricades. They literally put up barricades. And 203 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: these both of these two groups, the pro eugenics Fisher 204 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 3: group and the anti eugenics hell Dane group, were the 205 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: ones that were like figuring out how to get past 206 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 3: the barricades so they could go to their labs. So 207 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 3: there's one funny scene that we can laugh at where 208 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: Ronald Fisher is trying to climb over like a barricade 209 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: and the guards try to stop him and they literally 210 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 3: pants this guy trying to pull because he's clambering our 211 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: barricade and they got him on pants, which for our 212 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 3: British listeners I've learned means something else. It would be 213 00:13:54,440 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 3: his trousers in English. So that's oh right, that's like 214 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: how intensely these people are focused on science as a concept. 215 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: So the reason not, yeah, we kind of went on 216 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: a side journey which was very fun. But the reason 217 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: that this matters is because once you start exposing people 218 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: to weird gases, I'm gonna respond differently than Ben is 219 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: going to respond, and We're gonna respond differently than Nola 220 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: is gonna respond, or our silent producer Max is going 221 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: to respond. All of us are gonna have variation, and 222 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,479 Speaker 3: especially with some of these gases which this lab discovered, 223 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 3: you will even vary day to day. So there's no 224 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: such thing as how much oxygen can Rachel Lance take? 225 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: There is how much oxygen can Rachel Lance take today? 226 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: And the reason they needed to figure that out and 227 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 3: create all of these probability curves and give someone their 228 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: percent chance of being safety and was because they didn't 229 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: You can't test it for individuals, So they started out 230 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: doing it on themse elves. They got in these devices 231 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 3: called hyperbaric chambers. These are giant metal tubes. They're usually cylindrical, 232 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: sometimes they're spherical, but either way that's to hold the 233 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: pressure in. They sealed the doors shut to paint some 234 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: of this picture. These are thick metal walls. Some of 235 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: them have tiny little windows, others do not, so sometimes 236 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 3: the only light coming in is from maybe like a 237 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 3: two to three inch little piece of really really thick 238 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: glass portal. Others have no windows. Some of them go 239 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 3: shallow enough that you can maybe bring a light in 240 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: with you, but that's a fire hazard. That will light 241 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: a fire in a chamber and then them. 242 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: Is quickly give a recommendation for a TV show. Department 243 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: Q features a hyperbaric chamber as a major plot point. 244 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: So if you want to see it's very good. You 245 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: in particular, I think would appreciate it because it's got 246 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: a lot of references to deep sea you know, pressure 247 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: tests and things like that. Yeah, that's the first time 248 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: I'd ever seen one of these for real, and it's 249 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: it's very much a big part of the show. 250 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: Okay, I appreciate the tip. Cannot watch for accuracy yet. 251 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: I will go watch it and report back let us know. 252 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: But oh, Rachel, you're just haunted by having to watch fiction. 253 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: I love it. 254 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: What was it you said? 255 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: I remember there was a moment in our previous conversation, uh, 256 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: regarding the Hunley and you kicked us some facts about 257 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: film explosions, righteously irritated about it. 258 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I still carry that flag, but you know I've 259 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: got a lot of I've gotta love flags to carry. 260 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: To spend your disbelief, doctor, spend it. 261 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: Film explosions are frequently inaccurately portrayed. Perhaps you need to 262 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 3: go review the previous episode for the full details of that. 263 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: It isn't it is in the first book. It isn't 264 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: in the waves. Yeah. 265 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: But also going back to as you said, the hyperbaric chambers, 266 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: which will all remember from Michael Jackson, yea, his life 267 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: and career. 268 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 3: So his were clear, Yeah, his were clear. They were 269 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 3: made out of acrylic because he was not going very deep. 270 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: But that's that same idea. So that is a great visual. 271 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: But imagine that thick walled metal with nobility to light. 272 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: And now you when you go in them, one of 273 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 3: the first sensations that you experience is the noise and 274 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 3: the heat because people outside are controlling the chamber and 275 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: they are pumping pressurized gas inside. That's how we simulate 276 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 3: high depths, That's how we stimulate the depths of the ocean. 277 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 3: So as that happens, the gas around you is compressing, 278 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 3: it heats up. The gas flows through those pipes is 279 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 3: very loud. So a lot of people have very severe 280 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 3: claustrophobia inside chambers when they don't any other place in 281 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 3: the world, and they often the first time they're in 282 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 3: one got nervous. So when I was running experiments before, 283 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 3: back in professor life, when I would run experiments, a 284 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: lot of what I would do is talk to the subjects, 285 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: make sure they have time in the chamber, make sure 286 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 3: they know what to expect, make sure they're mentally comfortable, 287 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 3: because this is an environment that can feel terrifying even 288 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: though statistically it's very safe. Like statistically it's really really safe. 289 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 3: Unscrupulous chambers like the one in Troy, Michigan where there's 290 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: the explosion last year, those can go horribly awry. But 291 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: the safety standards for reputable chambers mean that those ones 292 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 3: that are run to code have extremely good safety records. 293 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 2: Can I just say I love the idea of unscrupulous chambers. 294 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there are some shady There are some shady 295 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 3: ass chambers out there, so yeah, you want to make 296 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 3: sure they're being run to safety code. Yeah, and so 297 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 3: it is, uh, it is it is an experience, experience 298 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: that can feel overwhelming. So this group jbs hal Dane 299 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 3: his girlfriend who he met in the lab. Her name 300 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: is Helen Spurway. She loves genetics. She particularly studied nuts. 301 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 3: I cannot tell you how many records I pulled with 302 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: her name on them that turned out to be literally 303 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 3: her keeping calendars of what kinds of newts she found 304 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: that day and where they were. Like, yeah, these are 305 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 3: extreme special interest people like she would go knock on 306 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 3: the houses of strangers, be like, I notice you have 307 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 3: a pond in your backyard. Can I go waiting in 308 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: it and look for nuts. 309 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 4: A thousand times? 310 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 3: Yeah? If you explain them to me as. 311 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: You how else can we make our witches brew? 312 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: So then there's another character, another gentleman named Martin Case, 313 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: as well as Jim Rendell. So these are kind of 314 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 3: our cast of care collectively, and they start putting themselves 315 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 3: in the chambers. Because the blitz is starting, people are evacuating. 316 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 3: The Royal Navy understands they have a problem, but they 317 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: also have bigger problems with the active warfare that started happening, 318 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: and so the scientists realize that they are the only 319 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: possible solution now they are the only ones with the 320 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 3: ability to help. And so this lab in downtown London 321 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 3: that is making the breathing apparatuses, it's a company called 322 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 3: Ciba Gorman. They open their chambers, They're like, do whatever 323 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 3: you need. You were here for you use our lab 324 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: as you will. And so this genetics team puts themselves 325 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 3: in these chambers, pressurizes themselves and starts studying these effects 326 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 3: of underwater physiology. Now what they discover still shapes pretty 327 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 3: much everything we know today about survival underwater. It's wild 328 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 3: how much they discovered, and they discovered it all in themselves. 329 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 3: And we can get into more details while I'll let 330 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 3: you guys kind of lead that, but just to like 331 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 3: let it be known, these experiments do not always go well. 332 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: Some of the effects of what can happen to you underwater. 333 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: They saw a brief preview with the Thetis crew that 334 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: came out so roughed up. But you get seizures, you 335 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: get unconsciousness, you get decompression sickness. In one particular experiment, 336 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: Helen Spurway kept seizing while she was inside the chamber. 337 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 3: And what's important here is you are locked in a 338 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 3: metal tube. The whole time, there is no outside help. 339 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 3: You are there with your person who's in there with you, 340 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 3: and they are your only hope. So that kept happening 341 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 3: over and over again, and despite everything that they kept 342 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: discovering using themselves. Just like the submarine Nurse, they went 343 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 3: in there every time saying, today might be my bad day, 344 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 3: but we need to figure this out. So I'm going 345 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 3: to show up. 346 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: That's crazy because you know about you just got pants 347 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: by security and you're like, this also still might be 348 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: the day. 349 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: That was the eugenics guy, So that. 350 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: Was okay, forget that guy, forget that. 351 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 4: That guy is a clown. 352 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then they served their math. They took their 353 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 3: math from studying genetics and they started applying it to 354 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 3: their experiments and they started using the math to describe 355 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: and give to the Royal Navy what the Royal Navy 356 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 3: could then do safely. So here's how much stuff you 357 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 3: need to bring on your mini subs to scrub out 358 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 3: the carbon dioxide. Here's the mini sub volume you can 359 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 3: build that starts turning into mini subs that are then 360 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 3: scouting the beaches of Normandy in advance of D Day. 361 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 3: Here's what you can do in terms of diving. Here's 362 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 3: how deep you can go, Here's what gas mixture you need, 363 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 3: and so all of these prescriptions start coming out of 364 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 3: this lab. 365 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: Well what are At that point, I think one of 366 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: our first questions has to be what are mini subs? 367 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: Because I'll be honest, as one of the most ignorant 368 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: folks I've ever met, I immediately think it's some kind 369 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: of cute submarine. 370 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: Well, I immediately picture the one that imploded that was 371 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: controlled with the PlayStation room. 372 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 4: They argue, how. 373 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 3: Sure are you? They are doable? And I love them. Yeah, 374 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 3: So traditionally that class of submarines has always been called 375 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 3: midget submarines. I feel like we're talking about subs, so 376 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: it's probably not problematic. I prefer mini subs just because 377 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 3: that's you know, but either way, these are submarines that 378 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: are extremely small, and there's no specific size cut off 379 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 3: between a mini sub and a regular sub, but generally 380 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: mini subs are going to have crews of somewhere between 381 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 3: three and ten people at most. And so, yeah, the 382 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 3: one that imploded the Titan definitely would qualify as a 383 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 3: mini sub, and then the ones that the HL Hunley 384 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 3: qualified ad a mini sub that was a crew of eight. 385 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 3: So the ones that they were building during World War 386 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 3: two were kind of a rogue project. We had like 387 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 3: this Royal Navy admiral who was convinced that these were 388 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 3: the way forward, even though they'd never really been built successfully, 389 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: Like nobody's built at this point in time a small 390 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 3: sub that has worked in warfare, even though people see 391 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: the potential. The reason for that has been largely lack 392 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 3: of understanding of how to survive in them. Like I said, 393 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 3: it's like breathing inside of a plastic bag as opposed 394 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: to breathing inside of a room. 395 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: You're not supposed to do. 396 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 3: By the way, don't do it. It's a bad idea. 397 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: You're breathing becomes a lot more sensitive because the changes 398 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 3: around you happen so much quicker. So mini subs need 399 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: a lot more careful, in my opinion, a lot more 400 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 3: careful engineering for the breathing apparatuses. Things like that, which, 401 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 3: by the way, that one imploded didn't have a breathing apparatus, 402 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: So pretty sure all that, like, oh you've got for days. 403 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: One of the manoked, pretty sure it was just a lie, 404 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: so good times. 405 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 3: But yeah, So this kind of rogue admiral starts tapping 406 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 3: into this hell Dane group as well and being like, hey, 407 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 3: I want to build minisubs. Can you make it work? 408 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: I want to minisops. 409 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: That is, by the way, folks, a verbatim and accurate impression. 410 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you. I've practiced that a lot. 411 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 3: That's just including the total lack of British accent. 412 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 4: I love I love this character. 413 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 3: Yeah okay, but anyway there, I mean again, this is 414 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 3: a group of people who collectively is all like, yeah, 415 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: we got to get creative now. So they were on 416 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: board and they started helping and getting in the information 417 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 3: they need. So the the subs he ends up getting built. 418 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: At first, the Royal Navy is sort of just mally him, right, 419 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: They're like, yeah, we'll let you waste some resources on 420 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 3: this if it'll shut you up. But they're called the 421 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 3: x Craft. They come up with this class called the 422 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 3: x Craft, and so these are mini subs that are 423 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 3: about forty feet long, they're about eighteen feet wide. But 424 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: we have to understand is that's not living space. That's 425 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 3: the outer hull. So you have pressure hull, you have engine, 426 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 3: you have tons and tons of equipment. By the time 427 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: you actually have worked your way in the space for 428 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 3: people to live is really tiny. There are pictures of 429 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 3: this in the book in Chamber Divers. You can also 430 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 3: google them they will come up. But there is one 431 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 3: spot in the very center of the X craft that 432 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 3: is tall enough for someone to stand up in one 433 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 3: person at a time. 434 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: Wow. 435 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: So that's what you're living in when you're talking mini 436 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 3: sub and these xcraft again started out as this sort 437 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: of side project, but as this Adimiral is using them 438 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 3: and he's star it's kind of demonstrating their purpose. They 439 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 3: actually also developed the ability for divers to use the 440 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 3: submarine escape apparatuses and exit the X craft on purpose 441 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 3: to then dive. So what you've now created is a 442 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 3: mini sub that can go in shallow waters, approach to beach, 443 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 3: release a person while still underwater, and let them swim 444 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 3: ashore without making any bubbles. Because that's how these rebreathers 445 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 3: were working. Imagine the special operations potential of that for 446 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 3: the first time. That is something that is still a 447 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 3: tactic that is considered like an advanced special operations move. 448 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 3: Navy seals do this, Marineforce recon do this. That is 449 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 3: still a technique that's used today, and it traced one 450 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: hundred percent back to the scientific group creating the ability 451 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 3: to have these substually small volumes. So what you see 452 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: as the real Navy starts to have their oce moment 453 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 3: and realize how valuable this is. They start trying to 454 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 3: make as many as they can. There's a shortage of them. 455 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 3: They actually lose a couple in a lot of these 456 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 3: early missions, which was really sad, but they're learning from 457 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 3: it in a positive way and they start sending these over. 458 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 3: So the X craft started going over to this little 459 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 3: place called Normandy, and what they would do is they 460 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: would sit on the bottom of the ocean. And we 461 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 3: never hear about this part. It's awesome. We never hear 462 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: about this. They would sit on the bottom of the 463 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 3: ocean for eighteen hours a day thanks to their ability 464 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: to process the breathing gas inside this tiny space. And 465 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 3: then at night, when the moon conditions were right and 466 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 3: this you know, they would come up and they would 467 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: release the diver and they would refresh their air. And 468 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: this they didn't use diving apparatuses for these missions, but 469 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: they would release them as swimmers and the swimmers would 470 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 3: swim in. They would take measurements of the shore. They 471 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 3: measured the angles. They took samples of the sand. They 472 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: noted where there were footprints, because if the Germans were 473 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 3: walking there, it means there's no mines, this is a 474 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: safe place to walk. They noted where there were no footprints. 475 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: These are all things that were overlooked in that previous 476 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: massacre situation. There's an absolute lack of recon right, so 477 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: this is okay. 478 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, So what Noah's talking about is a raid that 479 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: occurred in August nineteen forty two at Deepp, France, where 480 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 3: they tried the same They tried the same tactic of 481 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 3: just like throw as many people as you can at 482 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 3: the problem, and it was a massacre. They just got 483 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 3: absolutely mowed down. The part of the reason for that 484 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 3: was because the beach turned out to be rocks instead 485 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 3: of sand. So that small change meant that those rocks 486 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: got stuck in the tank treads, the tanks all through 487 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: their treads, some of them literally like caught on fire 488 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 3: from it. So all of a sudden you're making get oh, 489 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: the little beach change ruined everything, or it was not 490 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 3: the only problem, but they didn't have recon And so 491 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 3: now before Normandy, you're seeing the importance of recon. They're 492 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 3: taking soil samples. They brought those soil samples back to 493 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: the UK. They actually had a NASCAR driver evaluating them. 494 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 3: He was someone who was famous for driving on sand. 495 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 3: He'd been flown over there to be like, what will 496 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 3: this type of sand hole? They were working with geologists. 497 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 3: They had the troops practice on beaches with the exact 498 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 3: same angle and sand type on purpose, so that when 499 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: they were running they knew exactly what it would feel 500 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: like the day of And these scouting troops, these these 501 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 3: they're called cop COPP. It stands for Combined Operations Pilotage 502 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: Parties with the X craft are the ones that got 503 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: all of that information. They got it for the Royal Navy. 504 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 3: It was completely classified and that's why it wasn't really 505 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: talked to them out until modern times. It's wild you 506 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 3: read these reports of what they were doing. It's wild 507 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 3: because Saving Private Ryan really famously characterized what happened on 508 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: Omaha Beach, one of the two American beaches where number one, 509 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: they ran aground on like raised ridges that were still 510 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 3: underwater before they reached the proper beach, and a lot 511 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 3: of people drowned because they were running in from these 512 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 3: raised ridges, and then they would get to a deeper 513 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 3: area called a runnel, and because they were wearing equipment, 514 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 3: they drowned. And then they also slightly missed their landing 515 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 3: target and accidentally landed under a big heavy artillery battery, 516 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 3: which Tom Hanks points out. He's sitting in the sand 517 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: and he's like, this is an Omaha Beach. That's Omaha Beach, right, 518 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 3: So that those two mistakes were drivers of huge quantities 519 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: of the casualties on Omaha. And both of those things 520 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 3: were in these British reports in advance. They knew this 521 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 3: by January of nineteen forty four. These scouts have reported 522 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 3: these two things are very likely at Omaha Beach. It 523 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 3: needs to be approached with caution. It's going to be 524 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: the hardest speech to land on. I don't know whether 525 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: or not that information was past the Americans. I don't 526 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 3: know whether the British gave it to the Americans for 527 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: that reason. But I do know that that shows you 528 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 3: the power of scouting and the power of this underwater 529 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 3: stealth that was developed for that same purpose. 530 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's phenomenal because this is, as you said, 531 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: perhaps out of necessity or the legacy of necessity. This 532 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: is a story that could not be told for a 533 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: little while, right, especially given all the scientific advancements it 534 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: informed that would later be a a big part of 535 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: special operations in a lot of modern militaries. 536 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: It was the classification, right of the I mean it 537 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 2: was all. 538 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 3: Classified because this was still secret technology. They still didn't 539 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 3: want people to know what they had done and what 540 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 3: they could do. 541 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: I wish there was still you know, uh, what's that? 542 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: What's that old saw about the uh uh radar and 543 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: eating carrots? I wish we had some. I wish we 544 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: had some. 545 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 3: Like the Allies had developed a more advanced version of radar, 546 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 3: and to compensate, they started spreading rumors that they discovered 547 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: that carrots and beta carotene improved the vision of their pilots. 548 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 3: And that was like, that was like the rumor that 549 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: they started to like hide the fact they had new technology. 550 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 3: So what do you think? Can it be spinach based? 551 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 3: What do you start? 552 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 4: It's got to be. 553 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: It's got to be spinach based. 554 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 4: How are they how do they know everything about the 555 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 4: beach spinach power? 556 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, we got a partially the classified document about spinach. 557 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 4: I've said too much. 558 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: They're better you're better at holding your breath if you 559 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 3: have quantity. 560 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 4: That's it. That's perfect. 561 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: So we spread that to the Cambridge five or whatever 562 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: as their spine. So in this though, we, as you said, 563 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: we have to return to the fact that the experiments 564 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: these hardcore maverick rogue scientists were conducting because Noel and 565 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: I both love the word maverick, it's just the ten 566 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: ten work. They were conducting these experiments in service of 567 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: a greater good. So they are they're kind of violating 568 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,439 Speaker 1: typical established ethical constraints of experiments, right. 569 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 3: They are very much for today's standards. So a lot 570 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 3: of what we talk about today when we talk about 571 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 3: informed consent and we talk about ethical standards came from 572 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 3: World War Two, especially the discovery of the atrocities of 573 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 3: the concentration camps. Because I will say I did want 574 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 3: to present a little bit about what one particular German 575 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 3: scientist was doing in the book, because I thought he 576 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 3: had a really interesting ethical conundrum. He was a German 577 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 3: aviator who then started studying some of the same things 578 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 3: for the German side. But he thought it was absolutely 579 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 3: appalling the way the other German scientists were operating, and 580 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: so he also used himself. He would not test on 581 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 3: unconsenting Jewish subjects. He wouldn't, but he was being forced. 582 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 3: You gotta respect that, like he was being forced. He's 583 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 3: in Nazi health Germany. He's being told do these things, 584 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 3: tell us these answers, and he was like, I will 585 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 3: do it, but only on myself. So you got to 586 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: kind of you got to kind of respect the difficulty 587 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 3: of that situation and the fact that he chose himself 588 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 3: over the prisoners. Because after World War Two, that's when 589 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 3: you start seeing the Nuremberg Trials. The Nurmberg Trials are 590 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 3: where we get most of our modern code of ethics 591 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 3: for experimentation, So that's where we get most of our 592 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 3: what not to do Now, testing on yourself is actually 593 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 3: what not to do things because you can so easily 594 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 3: bias the data, even accidental. So one of the buzz 595 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 3: phrases and science that gets turned a lot without explanation 596 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 3: is double blind controlled study. What that means double blind 597 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 3: is both the person getting the treatment and the investigator 598 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 3: do not know who is getting what. So if I'm 599 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 3: giving Noel some drugs that I want to tell please, yeah, 600 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 3: I do not know if I am giving Noel the 601 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 3: drug or the place ebo because like just we as humans, 602 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 3: we have so much nonverbal communication, we have so many 603 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 3: and inherent biases that we can that is the source 604 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 3: of a lot of scientific error. And it doesn't have 605 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 3: to be nefarious, like it doesn't have to be people 606 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 3: doing it on purpose. And that's why you do that 607 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 3: double blinding. So with these experiments where they were doing 608 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,439 Speaker 3: it on themselves, that was out of necessity. But now 609 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 3: it's really considered not allowed because of the ease of 610 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: creating essentially junk science or incorrect results. Like you want 611 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 3: to you want emotional separation so that you can be 612 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 3: as objective as possible. But yeah, most of that happened 613 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 3: post World War Two. At this time period, it was 614 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 3: still fairly commonplace for scientists to use themselves first because 615 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 3: like I said, these are people who are the most 616 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 3: passionate about their topics. 617 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: Right, and this is this is where as we're as 618 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: we're wrapping up a little bit, as as we're approached 619 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: to close, we have to talk about what you established earlier. 620 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: This was dangerous for these folks, right, They're not doing 621 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: they're not doing a theoretical math, they're not necessary they 622 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: are at some point, I imagine arguing over notepads. Sure, 623 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: but they're doing it after they've survived this barrage of 624 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: conditions in hyperbaric chambers. Can you tell us about some 625 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: of the close calls or things that yeah, got close 626 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: to going very badly. 627 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 3: One of the early close calls that they had was 628 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 3: JBS Haldane was the test subject that day, and JBS 629 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 3: Haldane was known for being kind of a large man 630 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 3: for the He was six foot one, which for that 631 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 3: generation was massive, and he called himself fat like that 632 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 3: was his self descriptor. So he was a big guy. 633 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 3: The reason that matters is he's now trapped in a 634 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 3: tiny metal tube with Martin Case who is much much smaller. 635 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 3: What they were testing that day is how deep they 636 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 3: could go well breathing oxygen. And what they did not know, 637 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 3: and they really were pioneers in discovering, is that you 638 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 3: have too much oxygen it can cause a seizure. So 639 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 3: JBS heal Dane is the test subject. They think they're 640 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 3: going down for just a few cognitive tests. Excuse me. 641 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 3: They think he's going to do some math, hey math. 642 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 3: They think he's going to like move a little metal 643 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: ball around so they can trust his dexterity. What ends 644 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 3: up happening is JBS how Dane not only has a 645 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 3: massive seizure, but he ends up with multiple seizures with 646 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 3: lots of mental confusion in between. So this huge man 647 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 3: is now barging around this tiny enclosed space trying to 648 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 3: physically bash his way out of the metal walls, because again, you. 649 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 2: Are confining out, Yeah. 650 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 3: You are confined. It is not a place that we 651 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 3: instinctively want to be. He freaks out. Martin cases in 652 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 3: there single handedly trying to restrain his massive boss as 653 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 3: a much smaller person inside this metal walld cylinder where 654 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 3: there is no formal communication with the outside and he 655 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 3: has to try and express this emergency through tapping on 656 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:09,760 Speaker 3: the wall with a hammer, so again there is no help. 657 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 3: So that I was really almost honored to be able 658 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 3: to write that scene in like extreme detail because they 659 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 3: sat down and they had like a really detailed debrief 660 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 3: about it. They were incredible scientists in the sense that 661 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 3: they had timekeepers, like they had stopped synchronized watches like 662 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 3: timekeepers inside the chamber, outside the chamber, and then whoever 663 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 3: was driving the chamber. So there are three different accounts 664 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 3: that were alignable by time as well as like their 665 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 3: debrief after and so I was able to write like 666 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 3: minute by minute of how that works. And in that incident, 667 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 3: Hall Dane is like hurling himself against this metal wall 668 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 3: so hard he fractures one of the vertebrates in his spine, 669 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 3: so he literally breaks his own back. And this is 670 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 3: sort of important because they're at the start of the 671 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,479 Speaker 3: time series, so this is their example. Any day could 672 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 3: be your day. This is what could happen. And they 673 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 3: kept getting in, Yeah, they kept getting in, but what 674 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 3: And then, you know, since you said we're kind of 675 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 3: wrapping up, I really love to tie this back to 676 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 3: D Day because I wanted to end the book with 677 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 3: Dday on purpose. So you know, after that there is 678 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 3: like a little wrap up chapter about what they did 679 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 3: the rest of their lives. But the last chapter and 680 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 3: the chapter that I think I'm prouder of that chapter 681 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 3: than anything else I've ever written. I worked so hard 682 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 3: to tell the whole story of D Day from the 683 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 3: perspective of individual people who were there, using like oral 684 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 3: histories and records and things like that, so it is 685 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 3: it is a collection of storming the beaches from individuals 686 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 3: who did it, and the reason that some of them 687 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 3: survived is because they went in with custom gas mixes 688 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 3: in their breathing apparatusus and custom protective here to protect 689 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 3: them against mines in the water that were developed by 690 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 3: this exact group, And they didn't know where it came from, 691 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 3: but they knew that they had these sheets of guidelines, 692 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 3: and those guidelines were rock solid. These were good scientists, 693 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 3: and so on the American beaches, the Ordnance disposal experts, 694 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 3: the frog men, they went in wearing kind of like 695 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 3: lays up foods. They went in anticipating sand because of 696 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 3: that's just the way the tides were at Omaha in Utah. 697 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 3: But on the British beaches, they sent in divers, they 698 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 3: sent in people with breathing apparatuses. They had a hard 699 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 3: time at first because just the number of propellers overhead 700 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 3: made that job really hard to do safely. But as 701 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,919 Speaker 3: soon as the propellers start and the ship start being 702 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,399 Speaker 3: channeled properly, those are the guys who are down there 703 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 3: underwater dismantling the bombs and mines. To expand and expand 704 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,760 Speaker 3: and expand the amount of beachfront that allies can safely 705 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 3: land on. So on the British beaches and then expanding outward, 706 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 3: you have underwater divers dismantling ordinance with their own hands, 707 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 3: and they're able to do it because this group made 708 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 3: them custom blends of high oxygen that was exactly the 709 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 3: right amount for normandy and they had not one single 710 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 3: diving related casualty. So we yeah, we so rarely talk 711 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,800 Speaker 3: about in when we talk about where, we so rarely 712 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 3: talk about the things that went extremely right. They didn't 713 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 3: have a single diving problem and it was because this 714 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 3: group had done it all in themselves in their lab 715 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 3: in London during the Blitz to make sure that when 716 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 3: they handed these apparatuses and this information of people, it 717 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 3: was as safe as humanly possible. 718 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 2: Success. 719 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, big success on the diving. 720 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 721 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: And we just hatched our our own disinfo campaign about 722 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:03,839 Speaker 1: eating spinach, yes and breathing differently. This has been an 723 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: absolute pleasure. You have taken us on such a wild ride, Rachel. 724 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 4: And just so. 725 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: Everybody knows we are not blowing smoke or we're not 726 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: breathing the wrong gasp when we say that. Chamber Divers 727 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: is a phenomenal book, as is in the Waves A 728 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: thanks well, thank you, for creative Actually, you know, thank 729 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: you for putting in the footwork and traveling to foreign lands. Yeah, 730 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: to get this hidden research. Where can people learn more 731 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: about your work and just follow you in general? 732 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm pretty googleable. My author website is Rachel 733 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 3: Lance Rights dot com. People are feel are free feel 734 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 3: people are free to reach out to me through there. 735 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 3: I'm kind of rejiggering my social media presence. I was 736 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 3: primarily on Twitter, trying to move into like kind of Instagram, 737 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 3: maybe blue Sky a little bit, but my handles are 738 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 3: always apt underwater lamps. I committed the cardinal sin of publishing, 739 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 3: which is I was not really available to talk about 740 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 3: the story. So I really appreciate you having me now 741 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 3: and like, yeah, it's been great, thank you now. 742 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 2: At anytime moving forward, I'm sure we'd always love to 743 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 2: hang out and talk more about this stuff. Thanks for 744 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 2: joining us. 745 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I do respond to that, So people are 746 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 3: welcome to reach out to me, and yeah I am. 747 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 3: I am working on a third book. We're going to 748 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,399 Speaker 3: go to World War One for that one, but it's 749 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 3: not public yet, so. 750 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 4: You get the. 751 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: INSIGHTE scoop but a classified classified projectation. Yes, yes, it's 752 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 1: an RL classification. Yes, thank you so much. Thanks to 753 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: our super producer mister Max Williams Alex Williams, who composed 754 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: this track. 755 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 4: Uh, Noel, do we have a good. 756 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,720 Speaker 1: Maritime insult for Jonathan Strickland ak the quister? 757 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you put me on the spot. 758 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:56,399 Speaker 4: Okay? Any good ones? 759 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 2: Race Kirby Dog, Perhaps that's a good boy. 760 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Rachel. 761 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: What's like a sub mariner insult for someone? 762 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 4: Or you know anything? 763 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 3: I mean usually honestly, like real ones, there's just a 764 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:13,879 Speaker 3: lot of profanity. 765 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 2: Okay, we'll go with These are hard, these are these 766 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,360 Speaker 2: are hard drinking Mavericky, there we go all over it. 767 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 4: Who else do we think? 768 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, we gotta thank Chris Frasciotis and he's 769 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 2: Jeff cos here in Spira. We've got to thank a j. 770 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,919 Speaker 2: Mohammas Jacobs, the puzzler who is who was a lovely man. 771 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 2: We have nothing bad to say about? Yeah, and thank you, 772 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 2: Thanks you too, but we'll see you next. 773 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 3: Time, folks. 774 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,839 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 775 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.