WEBVTT - The Bolton Factor in the Impeachment Trial 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:05.200 This is Bloomberg Law. Some complicated international law issues here, 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.360 and what kind of docket is Chief Justice Roberts facing 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.959 interviews with prominent attorneys in Bloomberg Legal Experts. Joining me 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.200 is Bloomberg New Supreme Court reporter Greg Store, Neil Devans, 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.040 Professor at William and Mary Law School, and analysis of 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.600 important legal issues, cases and headlines. President Trump lost resoundingly 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.959 in the circuit courts and unusually large number of immigration 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.479 cases Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. President 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.640 Trump's legal team continued their argument in the Senate impeachment 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:38.000 trial against him. Lawyer Ken Starr, whose Independent Council investigation 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.920 into President Bill Clinton resulted in his impeachment, argued that 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.839 impeachment is being used as a political weapon. The Senate, 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:52.199 in its wisdom, do well, and its deliberations to guide 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:58.200 the nation, in this world's greatest deliberative body, to return 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:06.320 to our country's traditions when presidential impeachment was truly a 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.759 measure of last resort. Joining me is Neil kin Caper, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.400 Professor at Georgia State University College of Law. Give me 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.200 your your general take on the defense. Well, I think 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:20.880 they don't have much of a defense to present, and 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:26.280 today's presentations I think really illuminated that. First, just the 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:31.880 decision to ignore John Bolton's statements in his book is 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.479 just completely irresponsible. Those statements are out there and they 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.040 are direct evidence that the President regarded this whole matter 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.600 as a quid pro quo. Then they stand up and 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.160 say there is no evidence of a quid pro quo. 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.640 That's true. If you ignore all of the evidence that 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.680 exists of a quid pro quo, it's just bizarre, and 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:58.440 ken stars presentation was galling, requires us to ignore the 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:03.760 role he played in impeachment and in politicizing our politics. 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:09.160 How important is what people are calling the bombshell information 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:14.280 about John Bolton's book. It's crucially important because there is 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.360 a mountain of evidence that would lead any fair minded 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:23.040 person to believe that President Trump created a quid pro quote, 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.640 that he was withholding the aid in order to get investigations. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.880 But his defenders have said over and over again, there 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.679 is no direct evidence. No one testified that they directly 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.960 were told that it was either their presumption, it was 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.480 their understanding, but it was never expressly stated. Well, for 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.079 people who want to hang on to that thin read. 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:51.079 Bolton's evidence completely destroys it because the reporting is that 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.200 he is saying that Trump told him directly that there 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.280 was a link between releasing the AID and the beginning 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:04.160 of those in investigations. Now suppose they called John Bolton 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.600 to testify, then what it opened the door to more witnesses, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:13.000 because now you have Mick Mulvaney saying that what Bolton 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.600 said is not true, and the same Mike Pompeo. So 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.800 then would you need to call them as well? I 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.360 don't know about need to. Certainly Mick mulvaney should be 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:28.000 called to answer if that's not true. Why first of all, 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.880 why he said it was true when when he spoke 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:35.000 at his press conference um and also to talk about 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.360 the whole process of how the money came to be 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.800 held and the way in which and this is something 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.040 that the office he headed, the Office of Management and Budget, 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.880 is deeply involved with. It violated the federal law, the 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:54.680 Impoundment Control Act. Reportedly, John Bolton is a copious note taker. Well, 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.640 I think it bolsters his credibility. And you know, so 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.040 he has notes and there's nothing that would prevent him 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.440 bringing those along with him to the Senate they don't 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.240 appear to be property of the federal government that can 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:12.240 be forbidden to him. Um, and those can corroborate the 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.080 statements he's making about what the President told him. Let's 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.919 talk a little bit about some of the points made 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:25.160 by the defense, including on Saturday where White House Council 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.679 Pat Cipolone said, we're here to perpetrate the most massive 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.960 interference in an election in American history. According to what 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:39.479 he said, wouldn't any impeachment proceeding be an interference in 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:45.640 an election? Any impeachment proceeding against the president? Yes? Um, right, 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.080 The President Nixon could have made the same argument. President 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.960 Clinton could have made the same argument President Johnson. Any 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:56.560 president who's being impeached can say it's subverting an election, 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.839 which is how I got into office. Um. And And 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.279 the further point that Sippoloni was making is that it 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.880 would take Donald Trump's name off the ballot this November. Um, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.440 that's not necessarily the case. And I'm sure if somehow 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.760 Donald Trump were convicted, Sipoloni would make the argument that 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.520 he should not be UM barred from running. The Senate 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.960 can impose that punishment, but doesn't have to. Um And 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.320 has only imposed it twice in history. It is part 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:29.760 of the articles seeking to have Donald Trump prohibited from 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.080 ever holding office again. But I could imagine Republicans in 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.920 the Senate saying, well, the American people should get their 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.640 decision um, and we want to do something that's consistent 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.960 with democracy, so we won't borrow from the ballot. I've 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:47.200 covered many trials and you rarely, if ever see personal 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.320 attacks on the lawyers who are doing me arguing, whether 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.960 it's defense attorney or the prosecutor. But in this case, 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:59.520 the defense decided to attack Congressman Adam Schiff. How unusual 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.200 is that and is it appropriate? It would be perfectly 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.680 appropriate if there were any merit to it. I think 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.960 Adam Schiff ran a perfectly fine process. The problem is 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.000 the President is running out of arguments, and now that 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.640 he can no longer with a straight face claim that 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.800 the AID was not linked to investigations, the only thing 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.719 he has left is to say the process has been unfair, 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:29.640 and that requires you to attack Adam Schiff and the 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.960 process that he ran back in the House of Representatives. 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.240 Let's turn to Kenneth Star for a moment. He said, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.279 we are living in what I think can aptly be 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:42.120 described as the age of impeachment. So we talked about 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:47.520 impeachments becoming too common and that impeachments should be bipartisan. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:52.080 What's your take on his approach to this. Well, for 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.279 him to make that claim is just outlandish. And he 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.960 is the one who made impeachment weaponized. UM. It would 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:05.880 his report, which was designed at every turn of the page, 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.680 was designed to compel the House of Representatives to impeach 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.560 President Clinton. Um. And that after an investigation that was 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:19.400 designed to find anything it could. Remember he was appointed 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.600 to investigate the failed land deal Whitewater. He found nothing. 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:27.400 He found nothing. Um. It was only when he could 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:31.600 then turn it into President Clinton's personal scandal that he 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:35.840 was able to concoct the grounds for impeachment. That's his record, 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.520 That's what he did. He acknowledged none of that. He 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.080 also made the demonstrably false claim that the articles of 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:47.520 impeachment brought to the Senate showed criminal misconduct beyond a 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.360 reasonable doubt. In fact, the articles brought to the Senate 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.840 did not prove UM. The case against Bill Clinton. If 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.160 you recall Arlen Spector attempted to vote not proven when 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.920 when the question was called um, Bill Clinton was not 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:08.720 impeached because, in fact, Republicans voted to acquit, specifically because 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.680 the evidence was lacking. Looking at this in the light 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.920 of the defense can be seen best. What are they 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.600 trying to do here? I think they're trying to emphasize, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.720 first of all, that the bar to impeach a sitting 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.640 president should be very high, and I think everyone should 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.720 agree with that. And if we were to look at 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:35.120 Keen stars oration charitably that that was his claim, um, 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.360 that bar I think has clearly been met, but that 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.040 that was his claim. The other claim is that, well, 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.959 the House managers decided to proceed with the evidence they 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.120 had before them, and that didn't include John Bolton's book, 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.480 and so we shouldn't include it now. Um. That seems 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.240 to me just wrong. And if if it were to 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:02.760 come out this morning that UM, President Trump had actually 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:08.800 conspired with Vladimir Putin to rig the election in U 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.040 it would be preposterous to claim that the Senate could 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:17.400 not take that into consideration. The Defense and Republicans keep 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.640 bringing up, well, if you wanted to call witnesses, if 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.400 you wanted to call Bolton, why didn't use subpoena him? 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.520 What the Democrats response is, well, it would have taken forever. 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.319 Look at where are subpoena against Don McGann for for 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.720 White House Council is We're still not even close. But 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:41.200 should the Democrats have kept those subpoenas in play while 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.840 this process was ongoing. I don't think it would have 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.760 done any good. The problem is precisely the one that 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.880 you point to um. It takes a very long time 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.000 to litigate those disputes. It takes years and years to 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.160 litigate those disputes. Ken Starr made the point today that 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.000 sometimes litigation happens very quickly. He going into the famous 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.800 Pentagon Papers case. That's one case in the more than 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.600 two hundred year history of the Supreme Court. This litigation 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.560 was not going to move quickly, and the Don McGann 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.520 subpoena is a perfect example of how these matters were 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.360 not being treated with the speed that was given to 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.480 the Pentagon Papers case. But the other point is the 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.280 one that ken Starr also made. He was making the 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.360 argument that we're already too close to the election for 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:33.880 the Senate to subvert the upcoming election in his terms. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:39.080 If the House of Representatives had pursued those subpoenas and 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:44.079 litigated them even with incredible dispatch. The earliest they could 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.240 possibly have been decided would have been this coming summer, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.240 and then those arguments would have been made and made 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.360 with real force, that the election is right around the corner. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.080 Why don't we just leave this to the election into 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.880 the judgment of the American people. The point in going 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:03.440 forward now was twofold, first of all, to maintain a 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:08.360 respectable amount of time between the impeachment and the next election. 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.719 And second of all, it embodies the judgment that it 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:15.240 is too dangerous to leave Donald Trump in office because 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:20.400 the wrongdoing he's accused of specifically relates to subverting the 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.400 integrity of the upcoming election. And so it's too important 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.880 to move forward and remove from office someone who would 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.800 use all the powers and trappings of the office for 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:35.000 his personal benefit rather than for the public benefit. And 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.560 so it's we shouldn't have to wait for the d 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.320 C District Court and the d C Circuit Court and 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.320 the d C Circuit Court on bonk before the Supreme 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:49.280 Court before finally removing someone from office when the case 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.559 is already so strong. Neil ken Starr mentioned it today, 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.640 and we expect to hear more from Alan Dershowitz about 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.840 crimes being necessary. There has to be a real, stated 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.920 crime in order to go forward with impeachment. Would the 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.520 Democrats have been smarter to charge a real crime, so 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.319 called real crime, let's say extortion. Would they have been 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.760 smart to do that just to get rid of this argument? Well, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.880 I think the problem of that argument is that then 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.400 it changes the nature of the preceding. Instead of being 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.160 a proceeding that focuses on Donald Trump having abused the 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:34.800 office in this extortionary way, all of the discussion would 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.960 be around the legal technicalities of extortion, which may or 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.600 may not be met, and whether they are or aren't 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.280 is entirely beside the point. The point is Donald Trump 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.880 abused his power and abused his office for personal gain 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.000 and for personal gain in a way that subverts the 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.840 upcoming election. That is simply intolerable, whether it fits in 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.320 the technical boxes of the federal Dorsian Statute or not. 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.640 And that's the reason that in fact, the impeachment um 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.360 clauses in the in the Constitution are not drafted to 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.880 require an actual crime. Let's just say that they decide 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.079 to allow some witnesses at least to call John Bolton. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.600 In the end, there are going to be enough Republicans 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.720 to call for Trump's moving from office. So then is 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.319 it just an exercise and futility to have Bolton testify? Goodness, no, 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.360 it is crucial to have Bolton testify. And first of all, 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:38.080 remember who John Bolton is. He is a conservative and 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.360 a Republican to his core. He is not a liberal. 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.280 He is not part of any deep state. For him 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.760 to come forward with this testimony is going very much 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:53.760 against his interest, against his orientation, against his loyalties, and 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.760 so the credibility of that evidence is very, very high, 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.640 and it's important for the public to That's Neil Kincoff, 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.520 a professor at the Georgia State University College of Law.