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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: It's always sort of dumb to pick a single moment

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Speaker 2: when everything changed, But there actually was a moment when

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Speaker 2: the American sports fan changed. It came in nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 2: before the start of the baseball season, a writer named

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Speaker 2: Dan Oakrin taught a bunch of friends a weird new

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Speaker 2: game he'd invented. Dan's game worked like this. The players

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Speaker 2: each picked their own baseball team from the entire pool

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Speaker 2: of real life current baseball players. Your imaginary team gets

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Speaker 2: credit for whatever those baseball players do in future real

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Speaker 2: life baseball games. You win by being the best at

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Speaker 2: predicting what individual baseball players will do. This kind of

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Speaker 2: game eventually got called fantasy baseball. Fantasy play spread to

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Speaker 2: other sports. People sometimes bet money on their fantasy teams.

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Speaker 2: They might pay a fee, are a fantasy tournament, and

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Speaker 2: the winner gets to keep the pot. But the money

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Speaker 2: isn't really the point. The point is to spend all

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Speaker 2: baseball season with your friends and your fantasy teams. But

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Speaker 2: then in two thousand and nine, this company in Scotland

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Speaker 2: gets created by some techies who aren't even interested in

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Speaker 2: sports fan duel. It's called These techies think they might

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Speaker 2: find a way to make money off fantasy sports by

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Speaker 2: speeding it up by making it a daily competition. Instead

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Speaker 2: of waiting all season to see who won your league,

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Speaker 2: you pick your teams for a single day of games.

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Speaker 2: Instead of one contest per baseball season, you have one

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixty two.

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Speaker 3: What they found very early on as they tested their products,

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Speaker 3: they showed kind of an early version of daily fantasy

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Speaker 3: sports to users.

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Speaker 2: This is Albert Chen, sports writer, author of a book

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Speaker 2: about all this called Billion Dollar Fantasy, And.

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Speaker 3: They showed it to a guy and sort of like

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Speaker 3: this focus career have been. He's like, yeah, this looks like,

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Speaker 3: you know, sure, a daily version of fantasy sports that

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Speaker 3: my thirteen year old would play. And then they were like, well,

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Speaker 3: what if you can actually win some money off of this?

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Speaker 3: And he was suddenly very interested in that. It's the

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Speaker 3: money aspect.

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Speaker 2: By twenty twelve, millions of Americans are playing fantasy sports.

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Speaker 2: Some guys in Boston create a second company called DraftKings

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Speaker 2: to compete with fan duel. Venture capitalists throw money at them.

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Speaker 2: Before the twenty fifteen NFL season, these two companies are

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Speaker 2: outspending the entire beer industry on TV ads.

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Speaker 3: I'm seeing these commercials that are appearing, and I would

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Speaker 3: later learn at a rate of every ninety seconds. And

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Speaker 3: it was just an avalanche of ads that were frankly terrible.

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Speaker 3: You know, ads that look like they were three AM

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Speaker 3: infomercial hair Club for men.

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Speaker 1: Ads. There were testimonials.

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Speaker 4: Best of all, you could win a shipload of money.

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Speaker 4: Use promo code kick to play and get free entry

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Speaker 4: into the Millionaire Grand Final, be crowned to Fantasy Football Millionaire,

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Speaker 4: Get to DraftKings dot com.

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Speaker 2: What these companies do is different from old fashioned fantasy sports.

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Speaker 2: Their games are fast, they're played not by friends in person,

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Speaker 2: but by strangers online, and they involved serious money.

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Speaker 3: These ads were about people who were making ten thousand dollars,

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Speaker 3: fifteen thousand dollars, a million dollars and just like a

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Speaker 3: lottery ticket, winning just an insane amount of money. So

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Speaker 3: that caught my eye.

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Speaker 2: That caught a lot of eyes, and not always the

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Speaker 2: eyes the companies wanted to catch.

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Speaker 3: They caught the eye of the law. People were one,

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Speaker 3: how is this? First of all, how is this on

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Speaker 3: my TV screens? Because sports gambling is illegal and this

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Speaker 3: sure smells like sports gambling, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm Michael Lewis and this is against the rules. This season,

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Speaker 2: we're exploring the role of fans in American life. We've

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Speaker 2: come to the point where the sports fan is about

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Speaker 2: to take the field against American law. You can probably

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Speaker 2: guess who's going to win, but no one has ever

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Speaker 2: really told the story of how the game was played.

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Speaker 5: A number of lawmakers start wondering, well, this feels like gambling.

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Speaker 2: That's Jeremy Coudon, partner in a New York firm called

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Speaker 2: URIC that lobbies state legislature, is on behalf of various clients,

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Speaker 2: including back in twenty fifteen, fantasy sports companies.

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Speaker 5: You're basically putting money down on something that involves an athlete,

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Speaker 5: and you're getting paid back something if you win. That

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Speaker 5: to us sounds like sports betting. So a number of

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Speaker 5: state attorneys general issued opinions that these contests had to

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Speaker 5: cease and desist.

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Speaker 2: In twenty fifteen, Jeremy gets hired by DraftKings and Fan Duel.

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Speaker 2: Nearly every state has a law that forbids running a

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Speaker 2: sports book, and even if they wanted to legalize it,

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Speaker 2: they couldn't thanks to a federal law created by New

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Speaker 2: Jersey Senator Bill Bradley Jeremy Kudon's job is to try

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Speaker 2: to prevent states from extending those anti gambling laws to

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Speaker 2: fantasy sports, and ideally to get states to pass bills

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Speaker 2: that explicitly legalize fantasy play. But Jeremy needs an argument

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Speaker 2: for why legislators should do this.

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Speaker 5: So in most states, if you can show that there

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Speaker 5: is more skill than there is luck, then you will

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Speaker 5: be able to say this isn't a form of gambling,

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Speaker 5: and therefore he is legal like most states allow you

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Speaker 5: to have. Like golf tournaments are legal, fishing tournaments are legal.

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Speaker 2: That's his argument. Fantasy sports are games of skill, more

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Speaker 2: like phishing tournaments than playing the slots. To prove his point,

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Speaker 2: he hires an economist. The economists runs some numbers to

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Speaker 2: show that the best fantasy football players are better at

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Speaker 2: building teams than any actual NFL general manager. Jeremy's argument

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Speaker 2: raises at least one question, why does states think that

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Speaker 2: gambling is all luck? But let's leave that to one side.

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Speaker 2: Because Jeremy didn't have a lot of time for philosophy.

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Speaker 2: He was in a hurry to flip the switch in

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Speaker 2: as many states as possible. How'd you pick which states

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Speaker 2: to start with?

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Speaker 5: We were focusing on smaller legislatures at the time, where

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Speaker 5: this would be something that would interest them and that

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Speaker 5: we would have time to actually pass.

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Speaker 2: It smaller legislatures. That was one trait that made a

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Speaker 2: state open to his, say els pitch, But there were

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Speaker 2: other less obvious ones.

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Speaker 5: You know, I wanted to have male dominated legislatures at

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Speaker 5: the time because I, you know, I felt like it

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Speaker 5: would be easier to explain the issue.

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Speaker 2: You actually thought of that, that it was going to

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Speaker 2: be easier to sell us to guys than to women.

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Speaker 2: I did, yes, Why and why did you think that?

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Speaker 5: Because, well, some of the women and look, there's a

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Speaker 5: lot of women who were great with dannis sports I want.

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Speaker 1: To make clearer.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, no, A lot of them were like, I

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Speaker 5: have no idea what you're talking about. That just sounds

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Speaker 5: like gambling. And with a lot of the men are like,

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Speaker 5: oh no, I do fantasy sports. You're telling me this

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Speaker 5: is gambling. There's no way this is gambling. It is

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Speaker 5: for my friends.

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Speaker 2: Kansas is the first to explicitly legalize daily pay to

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Speaker 2: play fantasy sports. Not obvious, right, I mean, in fact,

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Speaker 2: pretty random. If you had to guess which state would

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Speaker 2: be the first to let its citizens off any leash.

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Speaker 2: Kansas isn't who you'd pick. Once he has Kansas in

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Speaker 2: the bag, Jeremy persuades twenty two more states to pass

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Speaker 2: laws allowing fantasies sports. After he's finished, the color coded

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Speaker 2: map of where fantasy is legal will look nothing like

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Speaker 2: the usual red and blue political maps we spend our

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Speaker 2: lives staring at. For example, both Arkansas and New York

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Speaker 2: will allow fantasy sports, but both Hawaii and Idaho will

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Speaker 2: forbid it. And when Jeremy's done, twenty three otherwise unrelated

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Speaker 2: states will share one very important thing in common. They

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Speaker 2: will all have legalized fantasy sports, which suggests they might

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Speaker 2: be gained to legalize some other stuff. How do you

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Speaker 2: get interested in sports betting in the first place?

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Speaker 6: I mean, in the first place a Catholic grade school.

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Speaker 2: Joe Brennan Jr. Like lots of people in this episode,

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Speaker 2: he grew up within one hundred miles of Trenton, New Jersey,

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Speaker 2: and went to a grade school with an illegal sport.

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Speaker 2: It's gambling ring inside of it.

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Speaker 7: The first time I actually saw one of the typical

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Speaker 7: the classic NFL parlay tickets that you see get handed

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Speaker 7: out that White Parley tickets in the second grade, and

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Speaker 7: then the first one I played one was in the

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Speaker 7: fifth grade.

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Speaker 2: Joe grows up in the early two thousands, goes to

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Speaker 2: work for an Internet company. The internet's new back then,

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Speaker 2: and people are wondering what other people might want to

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Speaker 2: do on it. Joe thinks one thing they might want

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Speaker 2: to do gamble on sports, a service illegal to provide

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Speaker 2: almost anywhere outside of Nevada.

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Speaker 6: Sports betting was always referred to, at least in gaming

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Speaker 6: and gaming politics, as the third rail of gaming politics.

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Speaker 1: That it was just it was for Boden.

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Speaker 6: Don't even get into a discussion of it.

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Speaker 2: That's partly because of Senator Bill Bradley's law. Well, by

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Speaker 2: now most people have forgotten that it's Bill Bradley's law.

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Speaker 2: They just call it by its acronym PASPA. Past has

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Speaker 2: been the law of the land for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Everyone seems to be for it and no one seems

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Speaker 2: to be against it. The NFL, the NCAA, the NBA,

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Speaker 2: Major League Baseball, every major sports institution in America says

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Speaker 2: sports gambling is evil. Joe doesn't care. He sees a

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Speaker 2: business opportunity. He raises some money, creates a firm to

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Speaker 2: lobby for change, and the change starts the way it

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Speaker 2: always starts in Washington with panel discussions.

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Speaker 6: I was invited to speak at the annual Sports Law

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Speaker 6: Conference because it was here in Washington, DC, and was

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Speaker 6: on a panel about legal sports betting.

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Speaker 2: This is in twenty twelve. The room's mostly filled with

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Speaker 2: like minded people. People who want sports betting legalized, many

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Speaker 2: of whom have grown up within one hundred miles of Trenton,

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Speaker 2: New Jersey. People who think, why can't these idiots who

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Speaker 2: hate sports gambling see that their law is dumb since

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Speaker 2: every school kids already doing it. A regulator from the

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Speaker 2: state of Missouri was speaking.

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Speaker 6: There was a gentleman sitting in the audience, and boy,

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Speaker 6: this guy was casually dressed. He was just in like

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Speaker 6: rugby shorts and a really you know, well worn polo

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Speaker 6: shirt and you know, in between guffaws and saying things

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Speaker 6: under his breath, the Missouri regulator asked him, is there

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Speaker 6: something that you would like to say?

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Speaker 1: Sir?

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Speaker 6: Do you have a question for us? And they handed

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Speaker 6: him the mic and he stood up and he said,

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Speaker 6: I probably have more to do with that law PASPA

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Speaker 6: being enacted than anybody else. My name is Jay Moyer,

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Speaker 6: and I am the general counsel and executive vice president

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Speaker 6: of the NFL. And there was a combination of dead

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Speaker 6: silence and then the panelgon like whoa I said something

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Speaker 6: probably not so nice.

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Speaker 1: Like oh, so you're the guy to blame.

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Speaker 6: So so mister Moyer did stand there and he expressed

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Speaker 6: very very strong opinion as to why that law was

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Speaker 6: enacted and why I should stand. And there was about

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Speaker 6: the sanctity of the contests and that they should never

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Speaker 6: be called into question, and that with gambling, it would

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Speaker 6: be inevitable that it would just descend into madness, that

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Speaker 6: people would never trust sports ever. Again, he wasn't mister

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Speaker 6: popularity in that room. Some of the audience started to

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Speaker 6: say things, some of the folks on the panels started

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Speaker 6: to say things, and to the point where mister Moyer

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Speaker 6: definitely got flustered, and he finally he pointed his finger

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Speaker 6: at us, and very red face he said, and I'll

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Speaker 6: never forget this. I guarantee you this. You will never

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Speaker 6: overturn that law.

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Speaker 2: You heard Joe laughing there. He was already working to

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Speaker 2: overturn that law by getting.

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Speaker 6: A state to fe You start looking at Okay, well,

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Speaker 6: what's a good state to start with. Who's going to

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Speaker 6: be our test case? And Jersey was obvious Why So

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Speaker 6: it was a combination of things. Was New Jersey was

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Speaker 6: already very motivated to find something for Atlantic City to

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Speaker 6: reverse its decline.

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Speaker 2: People weren't packing the Atlantic City casinos the way they

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Speaker 2: used to. Sports gambling was like the thing every Jersey

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Speaker 2: boy did with his lunch money. And maybe most importantly,

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Speaker 2: because after all this was New Jersey, there was a

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Speaker 2: guy you could see.

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Speaker 6: There was this one loan state legislator in New Jersey,

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Speaker 6: Senator ray Lesniak.

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Speaker 8: First of all, I was chairman of the Senate Economic

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Speaker 8: Development Committee.

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Speaker 2: Ray Lesniak now retired, but once a New Jersey State senator,

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Speaker 2: I could get anything through the legislature. I passed the

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Speaker 2: first law in the nation polishing the death penalty.

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Speaker 8: That was not easy. I got a whole bunch of things. Yeah,

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Speaker 8: I was pretty I was the main man in those days.

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Speaker 2: As main man, ray thought he had a firm grip

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Speaker 2: on New Jersey. He thought he could fix anything about

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Speaker 2: it that bothered him. But then a friend of mine,

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Speaker 2: Rudy Garcia, was arrested for placing a sports bet with

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Speaker 2: a local bookie that happened back in March of two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven as part of an FBI sting. Rudy

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Speaker 2: Garcia wasn't just Ray's friend. He was the former mayor

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Speaker 2: of Union City, New Jersey, a lobbyist and an important

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Speaker 2: ally in Jersey politics until he got whacked. That's amazing

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Speaker 2: to me that anyone bothered arresting him. Who's arresting a

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Speaker 2: guy who's placing best sports bets with his friends in

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Speaker 2: a bar.

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Speaker 8: Well, there was a set up, obviously, it was a

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Speaker 8: sting in operation, and they thought he was a runner.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I know all about this.

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Speaker 8: I used to place bets for my dad at the

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Speaker 8: local grocery store when I was growing up.

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Speaker 2: Of course he did, and the idea that Rudy Garcia

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Speaker 2: got arrested for placing bets offended raised sense of right

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Speaker 2: and wrong.

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Speaker 8: He was arrested for doing something he could have gotten

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Speaker 8: on a plane and flew to Las Vegas to do.

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Speaker 2: And so Ray tries to do what he can usually

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Speaker 2: easily do, change New Jersey state law, in this case,

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Speaker 2: to legalize sports betting, even though it puts him in

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Speaker 2: an odd emotional position because he himself has a complicated

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Speaker 2: history with gambling off track.

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Speaker 8: Betting was allowed in New York but not New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: And I live in.

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Speaker 8: Elizabeth and Gotha's Bridge is right in my neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Twenty minute rides or less.

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Speaker 8: I was driving somewhere and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 8: I found myself on the Gothel's Bridge going to the

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Speaker 8: betting polo.

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Speaker 2: I just was like attracted there. I didn't even think

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 8: I said, Holy, here's my lane, which I was about

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Speaker 8: to say, Well, that was a wake up call.

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Speaker 2: I was full fledged atic for sure. Ray knew the dangers,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't like anti sports betting laws or the

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Speaker 2: fact that they were being used against his friend Rudy Garcia.

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Speaker 2: Even though Rudy was never actually charged, the damage was

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Speaker 2: done by this stupid law. So Ray decides to fight

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Speaker 2: Bradley's law. But this he cannot do without the Governor

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Speaker 2: of New Jersey's help, and the Governor of New Jersey

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Speaker 2: at the time is Chris Christy.

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Speaker 8: Strangely enough, Christy and I do not get along at all,

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Speaker 8: but he is.

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Speaker 2: A very polite person.

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Speaker 8: One of the things reasons why we didn't get along

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Speaker 8: is that eight times he tried to block my effort

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Speaker 8: to legalize sports.

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Speaker 2: Betting without the governor on board. Raised powerless. But then

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Speaker 2: he hears from Joe Brennan, Washington lobbyist for Internet sports gambling.

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Speaker 2: Joe has a pile of money enough to get a

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Speaker 2: proposition on the state ballot in twenty eleven to ask

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Speaker 2: the people of New Jersey directly if they want to

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Speaker 2: legalize sports betting. And you can guess what they decided.

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Speaker 7: Folks in the state of New Jersey voted yesterday to

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Speaker 7: legalize sports betting.

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Speaker 2: The referendums just for show. It has no legal effect,

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Speaker 2: but still two thirds of the voters in New Jersey

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Speaker 2: vote to legalize sports betting. And how could they not?

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Speaker 2: Three quarters of their children are already doing it. Ray

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Speaker 2: thinks he's just forced Chris Christie's hand, and he's right.

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Speaker 9: That's why I'm pleased to announce today that our administration

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Speaker 9: is formally submitting our sports gambling regulations this week. When

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Speaker 9: you looked at the black market in sports betting, you're

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Speaker 9: talking about billions of dollars that's bet you know, was

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Speaker 9: used to be bet on the black market in sports

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Speaker 9: betting every year.

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Speaker 2: That's Chris Christi explaining his change of heart.

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Speaker 9: I thought, you know, legitimizing that already ongoing activity would

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Speaker 9: not only create you know, great economic benefit for the state.

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Speaker 2: Did you how did you have any sense of the

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Speaker 2: size of the black market. Had you bet yourself?

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Speaker 9: No, I was not someone who had bet myself, not

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Speaker 9: since high school.

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Speaker 2: Not since high school in New Jersey. This doesn't even count.

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Speaker 9: There were always, you know, little minor bookies that were

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Speaker 9: available in your school that would pass out these these

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Speaker 9: like cards with the spreads for the football games on Sunday,

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Speaker 9: and yeah, you'd bet five bucks and give them a card.

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Speaker 9: And it was, you know, a fellow classmate as a

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Speaker 9: runner for a bookie somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Where did you go to high school?

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Speaker 1: I went to Livingston High School in Livingston, New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in New Orleans. And nobody's running running

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Speaker 2: bookies slips into the high school. Like, was this a

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Speaker 2: common thing in New Jersey?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely.

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Speaker 9: Welcome to the garden state, baby.

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Speaker 2: Chris Christy and ray Lesniak may not get along, but

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Speaker 2: they share a public garden. If they can mow down

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Speaker 2: the rose bushes and develop it, they could both get rich.

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Speaker 2: But the Lamb's controlled by Bill Bradley, New Jersey's former senator.

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Speaker 9: That's what Bradley really thought, that gambling on any kind

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Speaker 9: of large scale would kill the integrity of sports. He

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Speaker 9: also used to tell me that he didn't want to

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Speaker 9: be bet on like he was a horse. He was

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Speaker 9: a human being, and he didn't want to be bet on,

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Speaker 9: and he didn't want his performance bet on. So you know,

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Speaker 9: I reminded the Senator any number of times that it

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Speaker 9: already was being bet on, just not legally.

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Speaker 2: Did you get where Bradley was coming from? Did anything

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Speaker 2: he say make any sense to you?

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Speaker 9: It made some sense to me, but I thought it

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Speaker 9: was extraordinarily naive. And look, that wouldn't be the first

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Speaker 9: time that Senator Bragley was accused of being naive. In fact,

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Speaker 9: I think it's one of his greater character traits because

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Speaker 9: it led him to think in a much different way

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Speaker 9: than a lot of people. A lot of other people do,

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Speaker 9: especially in New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: Let's recap here a bit. In nineteen ninety two, New

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Speaker 2: Jersey Senator Bill Bradley gets Congress to pass a law

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Speaker 2: banning most states from legalizing sports gambling, but illegal gambling

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Speaker 2: carries on in his home state, And meanwhile, fantasy sports

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Speaker 2: starts taking off and states around the country are persuaded

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Speaker 2: to legalize that. In twenty eleven, the voters of New

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Speaker 2: Jersey let it be known loudly they'd like sports betting

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Speaker 2: to be legal. Now, Chris Christy, the governor who previously

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Speaker 2: opposed sports betting, is not only saying he'll let it happen,

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Speaker 2: he's preparing to pick a fight with Bill Bradley's law.

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Speaker 2: Explain what's its stack here, and that how the federal

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Speaker 2: government wasn't banning sports betting, it was preventing states from

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Speaker 2: legalizing it, which is different.

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Speaker 1: Right, And.

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Speaker 9: Essentially, what we said was if the federal government tells

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Speaker 9: you that you cannot do something, then they have to

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Speaker 9: provide the regulatory muscle to prevent it from happening. And

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Speaker 9: they weren't doing that. They basically just told us you

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Speaker 9: can't do it. And by the way, if anybody's doing

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Speaker 9: it in your state, you're responsible for preventing it.

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Speaker 2: Chris Christy and Ray Lesniak both fought in their separate

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Speaker 2: ways that Bill Bradley's law was unconstitutional. I mean, after all,

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Speaker 2: Congress could have simply banned sports gambling, but it hadn't,

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Speaker 2: mainly because it carved out an exception for Nevada. So

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Speaker 2: the law was weird. And Ray gets the vote to

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Speaker 2: pass the law legalizing sports betting in New Jersey, and

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Speaker 2: Chris does indeed sign it. Then the two gentlemen in

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Speaker 2: New Jersey sit back to see what will happen next.

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Speaker 2: So how often do you have clients come to you

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Speaker 2: and say, I'm going to break the law, so I

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Speaker 2: need you to make the law go away.

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Speaker 10: Well, I don't recall too many occasions when someone's come

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Speaker 10: to me and said I'm going to break the law.

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Speaker 2: Meet Ted Olsen, maybe the greatest living constitutional lawyer, who,

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Speaker 2: in twenty twelve, to Chris Christie's delight and surprise, has

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Speaker 2: not already been locked up by the NFL, or the

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Speaker 2: NBA or the NCAA.

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Speaker 10: What happened here was that we wanted to test the constitutionality.

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Speaker 10: Nobody broke the law. The legislature passed a statute changing

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Speaker 10: New Jersey's constitution and statutes, and at that point our

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Speaker 10: opponents came in and asked the court to stop that

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Speaker 10: process as from taking place.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the politicians in New Jersey didn't exactly break

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Speaker 2: the law. They passed a law that broke the law,

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Speaker 2: knowing that they'd be sued by everyone who liked that law,

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Speaker 2: and knowing that ted Olsen was just the guy to

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Speaker 2: fight back.

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Speaker 10: It's very rare that you have an opportunity to challenge

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Speaker 10: the constitutionality of an Act of Congress and seek a

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Speaker 10: court to overturn an Act of Congress on constitutional grounds.

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Speaker 10: This was one where there was not much precedent.

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Speaker 2: By the time you come to challenge this law, it's

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Speaker 2: twenty years old. How unusual is it for a law

404
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Speaker 2: to sit there for that long before it's challenged.

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Speaker 10: Well, it's very unusual. In the first place. The desire

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Speaker 10: to pass this statute was perceived as doing good to

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Speaker 10: stop people from betting on sports, stop the potential corruption

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Speaker 10: of athletes and the temptations that might be put before

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Speaker 10: him through money. Nobody challenged it. Why is the Supreme

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Speaker 10: Court going to get involved in that now?

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Speaker 2: But the Supreme Court's been drifting in a new direction

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Speaker 2: for a while, and ted Olsen has helped it to drift.

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Speaker 2: His fingerprints are all over the black robes. Back in

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Speaker 2: the early nineteen eighties, along with a bunch of law students,

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Speaker 2: Ted helped to foster something called the Federalist Society, and

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Speaker 2: the Federal Society then evolves into sort of a farm

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Speaker 2: team for the Supreme Court. Justices Samuel Alito, Brett Kavanaugh,

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Speaker 2: Neil Gorsich, and Amy Cony Barrett are all members. So

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Speaker 2: ted Elson not only knows them, they're all in the

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Speaker 2: same club. That's one reason you hire ted Olsen to

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Speaker 2: argue your case. His presence alone signals to the Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court that this case might be worth having a look at.

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Speaker 2: It's like having Brad Pitt attached to your movie. This

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Speaker 2: case interests you. How do you decide how to argue it?

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00:25:07,316 --> 00:25:09,916
Speaker 2: Like you can just kind of take me inside your process.

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Speaker 10: The federal government in this case had the power to

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Speaker 10: regulate gambling. It could regulate gambling under the Interstate Commerce

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Speaker 10: Clause if it was commerce, and it certainly was, but

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Speaker 10: the Congress did not choose to do it that way.

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00:25:27,516 --> 00:25:32,996
Speaker 10: It said states may not authorize or permit gambling on sports. So,

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Speaker 10: in other words, what Congress was doing was, we want

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Speaker 10: to prohibit this activity, but we want the states to

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Speaker 10: do it. States will take the responsibility and the blame

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Speaker 10: and the credit or the blame for doing it because

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Speaker 10: the federal government stepped aside just demanding that the states

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Speaker 10: do it, and the states will spend their money to

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Speaker 10: pass a statute and enforce a statute. There is the

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Speaker 10: federal government going to do something, it should take responsibility

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Speaker 10: for it. It should pay for the enforcement.

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Speaker 2: Ted Olson has lit upon what in constitutional law is

441
00:26:07,676 --> 00:26:11,796
Speaker 2: known as the anti I'm endearing doctrine. The doctrine is

442
00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:14,436
Speaker 2: actually not in the Constitution. It's an interpretation of the

443
00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:18,356
Speaker 2: Tenth Amendment, and the tenth Amendment says the power is

444
00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:22,116
Speaker 2: not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor

445
00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:26,116
Speaker 2: prohibited by it to the States, are reserved by the states,

446
00:26:26,156 --> 00:26:32,716
Speaker 2: respectively or to the people. In other words, according to

447
00:26:32,716 --> 00:26:36,716
Speaker 2: this interpretation, Congress shouldn't try to get its way by

448
00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:41,876
Speaker 2: compelling states to do something or not to do it anyway.

449
00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:45,156
Speaker 2: Chris Christy heard this argument and he really liked his

450
00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:46,956
Speaker 2: odds well.

451
00:26:47,116 --> 00:26:50,796
Speaker 1: Very early on, I had a lunch with Roger Goodell.

452
00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:54,636
Speaker 2: Roger Goodell was and is the commissioner of the NFL,

453
00:26:55,316 --> 00:26:55,596
Speaker 2: and I.

454
00:26:55,556 --> 00:26:57,956
Speaker 9: Said to him, Roger, let's just you and I settle this.

455
00:26:59,116 --> 00:27:01,436
Speaker 9: Let's come up with a set of circumstances where it's

456
00:27:01,476 --> 00:27:05,156
Speaker 9: agreeable to the NFL, And so we sat there for

457
00:27:05,236 --> 00:27:09,236
Speaker 9: lunch that day, and Roger's a very good guy. He

458
00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:11,836
Speaker 9: just said to me, Chris, you got to just drop

459
00:27:11,876 --> 00:27:16,396
Speaker 9: the case because we're going to embarrass you. You know,

460
00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:19,316
Speaker 9: we're gonna beat you. We're gonna embarrass you, and you're

461
00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:21,996
Speaker 9: spending public money to do this and it's not gonna

462
00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:22,476
Speaker 9: work out.

463
00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:24,916
Speaker 1: And I like you, and you shouldn't do it.

464
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:31,396
Speaker 2: For a very long time, the New Jersey case seemed hopeless.

465
00:27:32,436 --> 00:27:35,516
Speaker 2: No judge in the lower courts was buying ken Olsen's argument,

466
00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:38,836
Speaker 2: but at one point, a lawyer for the NFL says,

467
00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:42,036
Speaker 2: we aren't saying you have to enforce a prohibition. We're

468
00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:44,636
Speaker 2: not saying you need to do anything to prevent sports gambling.

469
00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:46,276
Speaker 2: You just can't legalize it.

470
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:51,356
Speaker 9: So okay, So we went back and passed the legislation

471
00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:55,116
Speaker 9: that essentially took the hands off position. I said, we're

472
00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:57,596
Speaker 9: not to do anything, but we're sure as that hell

473
00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:03,516
Speaker 9: not going to enforce stopping anybody from doing it. They

474
00:28:03,516 --> 00:28:06,276
Speaker 9: aren't going to legalize sports gambling. They're just going to

475
00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:08,676
Speaker 9: tell their citizens that no one minds if they bet

476
00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:12,516
Speaker 9: on sports. It's a funny move. And they must have

477
00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:16,156
Speaker 9: they never have expected you to do that, correct, And

478
00:28:16,196 --> 00:28:18,156
Speaker 9: I think it's like taking the speed of lim it

479
00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 9: signs down on the highway. Yeah, and then we tell

480
00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:25,076
Speaker 9: people and we're not going to pull you over like

481
00:28:25,236 --> 00:28:29,676
Speaker 9: have had it, you know. And so we do it,

482
00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:32,916
Speaker 9: and the league sue us.

483
00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:36,956
Speaker 2: And so New Jersey's lawyer Ted Olsen, who returns for

484
00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:40,156
Speaker 2: yet another season. He gone oh in three his first season,

485
00:28:40,236 --> 00:28:43,796
Speaker 2: which ended in twenty fifteen. In the second season, he

486
00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:48,236
Speaker 2: goes oh to four. It's now late twenty and seventeen,

487
00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:51,516
Speaker 2: and at this point, seven different courts have ruled against

488
00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:52,036
Speaker 2: New Jersey.

489
00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:56,316
Speaker 9: I've already spent at this point about six million dollars

490
00:28:56,676 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 9: in legal fees. So Ted calls me and he says, look,

491
00:29:03,476 --> 00:29:09,956
Speaker 9: I know I have now lost seven times on this argument, but.

492
00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:13,916
Speaker 1: I think if we file for cert they're going to

493
00:29:13,956 --> 00:29:14,276
Speaker 1: take it.

494
00:29:15,716 --> 00:29:18,796
Speaker 2: File for cert means asking the Supreme Court to hear

495
00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:21,436
Speaker 2: the case. If they don't hear it, no state's going

496
00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:24,956
Speaker 2: to challenge pass by again. Anyone who wants sports gambling

497
00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:27,756
Speaker 2: to be legal is going to have to ask Congress

498
00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 2: to pass a new law, and good luck with that.

499
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:34,236
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court gets roughly eight thousand requests a year

500
00:29:34,276 --> 00:29:38,236
Speaker 2: to hear cases, and it accepts only eighty. But in

501
00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:42,796
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, the Supreme Court announced it wanted to hear

502
00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:43,756
Speaker 2: New Jersey's case.

503
00:29:56,436 --> 00:29:58,796
Speaker 11: I think the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties the Supreme

504
00:29:58,876 --> 00:30:05,556
Speaker 11: Court rediscovers what it calls federalism.

505
00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:09,396
Speaker 2: Alison Lacroix she teaches at the University of Chicago Law

506
00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:13,276
Speaker 2: School and has written a book called The Innerbellum Constitution.

507
00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:16,396
Speaker 2: It's about the Supreme Court in the decades before the

508
00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,916
Speaker 2: Civil War, a period that interested her because that Supreme

509
00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:24,116
Speaker 2: Court rhymes with ours. The state's rights cases were everywhere.

510
00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:27,036
Speaker 2: Slavery was the main issue, of course, but there are

511
00:30:27,116 --> 00:30:30,996
Speaker 2: lots of others, just like now, abortioning guns are the

512
00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:32,956
Speaker 2: main issues, but there are lots of other issues that

513
00:30:32,996 --> 00:30:36,836
Speaker 2: the society's failing to resolve on the national level. What's

514
00:30:36,916 --> 00:30:39,636
Speaker 2: behind this rediscovering of states rights?

515
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:45,796
Speaker 11: One view says federalism isn't even a real thing. It's

516
00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:48,876
Speaker 11: just about whoever's not in power in the center is

517
00:30:48,956 --> 00:30:53,836
Speaker 11: going to become a defender of peripheral power. You know,

518
00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:56,356
Speaker 11: if you don't control Washington, you're going to be the

519
00:30:56,356 --> 00:30:59,916
Speaker 11: person saying that's okay because my state or my city

520
00:30:59,956 --> 00:31:02,876
Speaker 11: can make its own policy, and there's no there there.

521
00:31:03,116 --> 00:31:08,196
Speaker 11: It's just a kind of dynamic and decentralization versus centralization.

522
00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,676
Speaker 2: There's another way to put this, that state's rights isn't

523
00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:17,276
Speaker 2: some abstract principle. It's just camouflage for your desire for

524
00:31:17,356 --> 00:31:21,596
Speaker 2: some concrete outcome. But Allison thinks it's deeper than that.

525
00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:25,996
Speaker 11: I think what's behind the resurgence of states' rights is

526
00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:30,356
Speaker 11: it's a forum or a kind of crucible to have

527
00:31:31,716 --> 00:31:36,436
Speaker 11: deep existential arguments, especially when the political system, as in

528
00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:40,836
Speaker 11: the partisan system, seems to not be functioning because federalism

529
00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:44,196
Speaker 11: lets you kind of go outside parties or seem to

530
00:31:45,076 --> 00:31:48,316
Speaker 11: and say, now I'm talking about this deep constitutional structure.

531
00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:51,156
Speaker 2: In other words, we're seeing a rise in these sorts

532
00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:54,636
Speaker 2: of cases because Congress has lost its ability to resolve disputes.

533
00:31:55,676 --> 00:31:58,076
Speaker 2: Sports gambling is sort of an example of this because

534
00:31:58,116 --> 00:32:00,596
Speaker 2: back when he introduced his bill in the early nineties,

535
00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:03,556
Speaker 2: Bill Bradley was unable to get Nevada to go along

536
00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:06,396
Speaker 2: all the way with him, so he was forced to

537
00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:10,916
Speaker 2: propose this weird law. It's rather than banning the thing outright,

538
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,476
Speaker 2: just tell states they can't legalize it. Any federal law

539
00:32:15,476 --> 00:32:17,676
Speaker 2: that shackle states in this way was bound to catch

540
00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:20,796
Speaker 2: the eye of a Supreme Court skeptical of federal authority.

541
00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:24,956
Speaker 11: And so it feels like there's this through line theme

542
00:32:25,156 --> 00:32:29,796
Speaker 11: connecting a lot of the cases. But it's also funny.

543
00:32:29,836 --> 00:32:32,156
Speaker 11: I mean, this goes to the question as well, which

544
00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:36,156
Speaker 11: is the Court is not hostile to federal power when,

545
00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:39,676
Speaker 11: especially when the federal power at stake is the Court's

546
00:32:39,716 --> 00:32:43,436
Speaker 11: own power. They have this way of talking about themselves

547
00:32:43,596 --> 00:32:46,836
Speaker 11: or not talking about themselves, and implying that they're not

548
00:32:46,996 --> 00:32:49,436
Speaker 11: one of the branches of the federal government, like they're

549
00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:52,636
Speaker 11: just there again as the umpire oh.

550
00:32:52,396 --> 00:32:57,876
Speaker 9: Yay, oh yay, oh yay.

551
00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:03,996
Speaker 10: You're standing at a podium looking at the Supreme Court.

552
00:33:04,116 --> 00:33:07,916
Speaker 10: They are arrayed all night of them in something close

553
00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:12,916
Speaker 10: to an arc, so that the justices and they're arranged

554
00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:15,036
Speaker 10: and by in order of seniority.

555
00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:20,156
Speaker 2: By that day, December the fourth, twenty seventeen, ted Olsen

556
00:33:20,236 --> 00:33:23,236
Speaker 2: had already argued sixty two cases before the court. This

557
00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:24,796
Speaker 2: would be his sixty third appearance.

558
00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:30,316
Speaker 10: The Chief Justice is probably six seven eight feet from

559
00:33:30,316 --> 00:33:33,876
Speaker 10: the podium where you're standing. You stand still, you don't

560
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:37,596
Speaker 10: move about, and you stand up straight and address the

561
00:33:37,636 --> 00:33:39,676
Speaker 10: court as much as you can.

562
00:33:40,676 --> 00:33:43,996
Speaker 2: New Jersey Governor Chris Christy was in court that day watching.

563
00:33:44,716 --> 00:33:47,476
Speaker 2: He had a front row seat. We'll hear an argument

564
00:33:47,516 --> 00:33:50,556
Speaker 2: first this morning in case sixteen four to seventy six,

565
00:33:50,916 --> 00:33:52,716
Speaker 2: Christy versus NCAA.

566
00:33:52,996 --> 00:33:56,436
Speaker 10: Mister Olson, thank you, mister Chief Justice, and may have

567
00:33:56,476 --> 00:33:57,236
Speaker 10: pleased the court.

568
00:33:58,156 --> 00:34:01,596
Speaker 2: That's how ted Olsen began. But Supreme Court hearings are

569
00:34:01,676 --> 00:34:05,196
Speaker 2: less like TV trials than job interviews. The lawyers each

570
00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:07,956
Speaker 2: stand there in front of the justices for about thirty minutes,

571
00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:12,076
Speaker 2: and the justice is just pepper them with questions. Christy

572
00:34:12,156 --> 00:34:15,996
Speaker 2: watches the action closely. He sort of knows he's gonna win.

573
00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:18,036
Speaker 2: I mean, why here the case if you aren't going

574
00:34:18,076 --> 00:34:21,756
Speaker 2: to overturn the law. But there's still some drama. It's

575
00:34:21,756 --> 00:34:23,516
Speaker 2: like when you know a guy in the Sopranos is

576
00:34:23,556 --> 00:34:25,956
Speaker 2: about to get taken out, but you don't know how

577
00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:30,356
Speaker 2: or who's gonna do it. Christy's especially interested in Justice

578
00:34:30,396 --> 00:34:31,076
Speaker 2: sam Alito.

579
00:34:32,516 --> 00:34:37,036
Speaker 9: Sam is a former US attorney in New Jersey, so

580
00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:38,356
Speaker 9: he's a predecessor of mine.

581
00:34:38,436 --> 00:34:39,996
Speaker 2: Did he grow up in New Jersey too?

582
00:34:40,156 --> 00:34:41,476
Speaker 1: Absolutely grew up in Trenton.

583
00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:44,516
Speaker 2: You think he grew up betting sports.

584
00:34:45,956 --> 00:34:47,316
Speaker 1: I don't know if he did, but I bet you

585
00:34:47,356 --> 00:34:48,076
Speaker 1: his father did.

586
00:34:48,516 --> 00:34:50,756
Speaker 9: Yeah, his father was a huge sports fan, and Sam

587
00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:54,716
Speaker 9: is a huge sports fan. I can't imagine that Sam,

588
00:34:55,116 --> 00:34:59,116
Speaker 9: that Sam Alino Senior did not, you know, put a

589
00:34:59,116 --> 00:35:00,916
Speaker 9: couple of bucks down every once in a while on

590
00:35:00,996 --> 00:35:02,636
Speaker 9: a Phillies or an Eagles game.

591
00:35:03,356 --> 00:35:06,116
Speaker 2: He can't imagine that Sam Junior won't play the starring

592
00:35:06,196 --> 00:35:09,756
Speaker 2: role in this Jersey show, which is maybe why in

593
00:35:09,836 --> 00:35:13,036
Speaker 2: the story Christie is about to tell, he gives Justice

594
00:35:13,076 --> 00:35:15,956
Speaker 2: Alito the big moment when the big moment wasn't his.

595
00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:18,596
Speaker 2: But I gotta let Christy do it, even if it

596
00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:19,996
Speaker 2: doesn't quite match the record.

597
00:35:21,036 --> 00:35:26,036
Speaker 9: The best moment was Alito because Alito said to Clement, Okay,

598
00:35:26,076 --> 00:35:27,036
Speaker 9: let me understand something.

599
00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:30,156
Speaker 2: It was actually Chief Justice Roberts who says this, and

600
00:35:30,196 --> 00:35:32,116
Speaker 2: it was another lawyer on the other side he said

601
00:35:32,116 --> 00:35:33,116
Speaker 2: it too, but never mind.

602
00:35:33,756 --> 00:35:37,636
Speaker 9: He said, so, let me make sure I understand what

603
00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:41,596
Speaker 9: you're saying. You believe the public in New Jersey and

604
00:35:41,716 --> 00:35:43,996
Speaker 9: any other state that followed them would be better off

605
00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:50,076
Speaker 9: if the state put absolutely no restrictions on this at all.

606
00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:54,716
Speaker 9: And he goes, absolutely right, Justice Alito and he goes, Okay,

607
00:35:55,316 --> 00:35:58,156
Speaker 9: So you think New Jersey would be a better place.

608
00:35:57,876 --> 00:36:00,916
Speaker 1: To live and raise your family If.

609
00:36:00,716 --> 00:36:07,076
Speaker 9: A twelve year old could go into a gambling hall

610
00:36:07,116 --> 00:36:09,516
Speaker 9: and bet his lunch money that is pas parents had

611
00:36:09,556 --> 00:36:15,716
Speaker 9: given him on the Eagles game this weekend, you think

612
00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:20,556
Speaker 9: that would be better. If he says, yes, it would

613
00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:25,596
Speaker 9: be better, you look like you're ridiculous. If, on the

614
00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:28,476
Speaker 9: other hand, you said, well no, well then you start

615
00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:31,036
Speaker 9: to go down the slippery slope of allowing us to

616
00:36:31,036 --> 00:36:33,156
Speaker 9: do some things but not other things, and then the

617
00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:35,876
Speaker 9: Feds are making the qualitative judgment on something that they

618
00:36:35,916 --> 00:36:36,516
Speaker 9: themselves are.

619
00:36:36,516 --> 00:36:37,516
Speaker 1: Unwilling to enforce.

620
00:36:38,276 --> 00:36:44,756
Speaker 9: He said yes, and Alito grabbed his like YETI and

621
00:36:44,876 --> 00:36:46,716
Speaker 9: took a big swig of whatever was in.

622
00:36:46,636 --> 00:36:49,556
Speaker 2: There, because in New Jersey you never know what's in

623
00:36:49,596 --> 00:36:50,636
Speaker 2: the YETI, And.

624
00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:52,756
Speaker 9: He said something to the effect of you really don't

625
00:36:52,756 --> 00:36:57,636
Speaker 9: believe that, but you know. Then at that moment, I

626
00:36:57,676 --> 00:37:00,236
Speaker 9: thought to myself, Okay, we're in really good shape here.

627
00:37:02,396 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 2: Ted Olsen has this ritual after every Supreme Court case,

628
00:37:05,796 --> 00:37:08,556
Speaker 2: he takes his team out for a meal. He goes

629
00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:11,436
Speaker 2: around the take and ask each person to predict how

630
00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:16,796
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court will rule. Often they're split unsure, but

631
00:37:16,916 --> 00:37:20,436
Speaker 2: here no one had any doubt. Christy went back to

632
00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:22,796
Speaker 2: New Jersey, knowing that he was playing a new hand.

633
00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:27,436
Speaker 9: I got a call from Roger Goodell and he said, Hey,

634
00:37:29,116 --> 00:37:31,636
Speaker 9: I'm flying out of Titterborough to go to some game.

635
00:37:32,676 --> 00:37:34,156
Speaker 9: Do you have time for us to have a meeting.

636
00:37:35,436 --> 00:37:37,556
Speaker 9: I'm like, sure, Roger, I'll come meet with you. So

637
00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:40,076
Speaker 9: we met in a conference room at the airport in

638
00:37:40,156 --> 00:37:43,276
Speaker 9: Teterborough and he said to me, look, why don't we

639
00:37:43,276 --> 00:37:46,836
Speaker 9: talk about settling this? And I started to laugh and

640
00:37:46,876 --> 00:37:48,796
Speaker 9: I said, Roger, I'm going to put this in language

641
00:37:48,836 --> 00:37:52,476
Speaker 9: that you understand. I said, you're asking me to punt

642
00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:53,596
Speaker 9: when it's first in goal.

643
00:37:56,236 --> 00:37:57,076
Speaker 1: No thanks.

644
00:37:58,956 --> 00:38:03,236
Speaker 2: Nearly six months later, on May fourteenth, twenty eighteen, the

645
00:38:03,276 --> 00:38:06,836
Speaker 2: Court issued its ruling on Bill Bradley's law. All you

646
00:38:06,876 --> 00:38:08,796
Speaker 2: really need to hear is this one line that Justice

647
00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:10,156
Speaker 2: Samuel actually said.

648
00:38:10,876 --> 00:38:15,316
Speaker 6: We therefore hold that the Passbook provision outlawing state authorization

649
00:38:15,956 --> 00:38:18,236
Speaker 6: of sports gambling is unconstitutional.

650
00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:21,356
Speaker 2: It had been a Jersey job from start to finish,

651
00:38:21,956 --> 00:38:24,676
Speaker 2: and there was one funny little twist which ray Lesniat

652
00:38:24,796 --> 00:38:29,396
Speaker 2: no doubt enjoyed Before the ruling. Chris Christie's term as

653
00:38:29,436 --> 00:38:33,076
Speaker 2: governor had ended. Phil Murphy was the new governor of

654
00:38:33,076 --> 00:38:36,236
Speaker 2: New Jersey, which is why the case is now and

655
00:38:36,276 --> 00:38:42,796
Speaker 2: forever called Murphy versus the NCAA. In retrospect, it's sort

656
00:38:42,796 --> 00:38:46,596
Speaker 2: of amazing how shocked everyone was. How out of the

657
00:38:46,676 --> 00:38:51,636
Speaker 2: clear blue sky this lightning bolt came. Did you see forces,

658
00:38:51,836 --> 00:38:56,276
Speaker 2: any forces kind of at work to undermine the legislation

659
00:38:56,996 --> 00:38:59,796
Speaker 2: before the Supreme Court decision? Nobody said anything to you,

660
00:39:00,156 --> 00:39:03,076
Speaker 2: But did you were you know? Okay, I thought they

661
00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:06,356
Speaker 2: didn't say anything to me. That's former New Jersey Senator

662
00:39:06,396 --> 00:39:08,596
Speaker 2: Bill Bradley, who you might have thought would have seen

663
00:39:08,636 --> 00:39:11,116
Speaker 2: the writing on the wall. But you didn't see the

664
00:39:11,156 --> 00:39:12,476
Speaker 2: Supreme Court decision coming.

665
00:39:12,796 --> 00:39:15,836
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. I was totally blindsided.

666
00:39:16,396 --> 00:39:18,916
Speaker 2: And the people with the greatest financial interest in the case,

667
00:39:19,276 --> 00:39:22,796
Speaker 2: the company's position to dominate the new sports gambling industry,

668
00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:26,276
Speaker 2: they hadn't seen it coming either. I want you to

669
00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:29,516
Speaker 2: describe in more detail the moment you learn that the

670
00:39:29,516 --> 00:39:31,116
Speaker 2: Supreme Court's going to hear this case.

671
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:36,036
Speaker 5: I am physically in DraftKings' old offices at that time.

672
00:39:36,556 --> 00:39:40,036
Speaker 2: Jeremy Kudon again, the lobbyist who's been getting fantasy sports

673
00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:43,796
Speaker 2: legalized in twenty three states on behalf of Fan Duel

674
00:39:43,876 --> 00:39:44,956
Speaker 2: and DraftKings.

675
00:39:45,356 --> 00:39:48,196
Speaker 5: And I see all of a sudden, a bunch of

676
00:39:48,236 --> 00:39:52,036
Speaker 5: texts from people you know in the industry saying, oh

677
00:39:52,036 --> 00:39:56,516
Speaker 5: my god, the court granted sir, which again means agreed

678
00:39:56,556 --> 00:39:59,756
Speaker 5: to hear the case. And I was like, what court

679
00:39:59,876 --> 00:40:00,636
Speaker 5: and what case?

680
00:40:01,236 --> 00:40:03,516
Speaker 2: FanDuel and DraftKings were like people who bought a home

681
00:40:03,556 --> 00:40:06,596
Speaker 2: on top of an oil field without knowing it. The

682
00:40:06,636 --> 00:40:08,156
Speaker 2: Beverly Hillbill is of gambling.

683
00:40:09,316 --> 00:40:13,196
Speaker 5: We ran, I think, I mean literally ran to Jason Robbins,

684
00:40:13,236 --> 00:40:16,036
Speaker 5: who's the CEO of DraftKings office, which I mean it

685
00:40:16,036 --> 00:40:18,796
Speaker 5: wasn't a long run at the time, and you know,

686
00:40:18,956 --> 00:40:21,596
Speaker 5: had to explain, hey, what we were even talking about,

687
00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:24,516
Speaker 5: and then explain what this meant, and you know, his

688
00:40:24,636 --> 00:40:28,076
Speaker 5: eyes looked like saucers, and you know it was one

689
00:40:28,076 --> 00:40:30,276
Speaker 5: of these things like, wow, we never get this lucky,

690
00:40:30,476 --> 00:40:33,356
Speaker 5: this is the greatest day. I mean, this changed everything.

691
00:40:35,156 --> 00:40:38,196
Speaker 2: Jeremy had already sold twenty three states on fantasy sports

692
00:40:38,716 --> 00:40:43,076
Speaker 2: by arguing that fantasy sports wasn't gambling. Now that sports

693
00:40:43,116 --> 00:40:45,636
Speaker 2: gambling was on the verge of becoming legal, he need

694
00:40:45,676 --> 00:40:48,076
Speaker 2: to go back with a new argument. Which would go

695
00:40:48,196 --> 00:40:51,476
Speaker 2: something like this. Look, you've let us do fantasy sports,

696
00:40:51,596 --> 00:40:54,236
Speaker 2: which we all know has a lot in common with gambling,

697
00:40:54,636 --> 00:40:59,036
Speaker 2: so you're already halfway there. Jeremy sensed an opening. Every

698
00:40:59,076 --> 00:41:03,196
Speaker 2: state that allowed fantasy sports might allow sports gambling fast,

699
00:41:03,916 --> 00:41:06,996
Speaker 2: because they could take a cut of it. No one

700
00:41:07,036 --> 00:41:10,636
Speaker 2: remembers this, but back in twenty eighteen, both FanDuel and

701
00:41:10,716 --> 00:41:15,356
Speaker 2: DraftKings were small companies running on fumes. It was unclear

702
00:41:15,396 --> 00:41:19,756
Speaker 2: whether either would survive. Two years after the Supreme Court decision,

703
00:41:20,196 --> 00:41:24,116
Speaker 2: each would be valued at least twenty billion dollars, and

704
00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:27,116
Speaker 2: together they would basically shape the world in which the

705
00:41:27,156 --> 00:41:31,436
Speaker 2: American sports gambler would live. Jeremy had spent all this

706
00:41:31,516 --> 00:41:34,716
Speaker 2: time arguing for the moral superiority of games of skill

707
00:41:35,116 --> 00:41:38,836
Speaker 2: over games of chance, but the boom about to happen

708
00:41:39,636 --> 00:41:46,356
Speaker 2: was all just sheer dumb luck. In part two of

709
00:41:46,356 --> 00:41:48,156
Speaker 2: the season, we're going to explore the soul of the

710
00:41:48,156 --> 00:41:52,236
Speaker 2: new machine, this vast new gambling industry that, through sports,

711
00:41:52,756 --> 00:41:53,956
Speaker 2: is changing our culture.

712
00:41:54,516 --> 00:41:56,596
Speaker 5: I don't know anybody who's ever been in gambling thought

713
00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:57,956
Speaker 5: they were a better person for it.

714
00:41:58,356 --> 00:41:59,956
Speaker 2: Do you have any interest in golf?

715
00:42:00,436 --> 00:42:01,876
Speaker 11: No, I've never watched golf.

716
00:42:02,036 --> 00:42:03,316
Speaker 2: Do you know how many holes there are?

717
00:42:04,076 --> 00:42:04,516
Speaker 11: Nine?

718
00:42:04,756 --> 00:42:05,556
Speaker 2: Actually eighteen?

719
00:42:06,556 --> 00:42:09,596
Speaker 12: I thought I got that right, And I remember having

720
00:42:09,636 --> 00:42:12,156
Speaker 12: like thirty thousand dollars on that front seat and being like,

721
00:42:12,436 --> 00:42:17,036
Speaker 12: oh my god, so much money in cash in cash.

722
00:42:17,396 --> 00:42:20,036
Speaker 2: That's all still to come. But first I want to

723
00:42:20,116 --> 00:42:22,116
Speaker 2: let you listen in for longer on some of the

724
00:42:22,156 --> 00:42:26,196
Speaker 2: conversations we've had for these episodes. We usually talk to

725
00:42:26,236 --> 00:42:28,036
Speaker 2: people and they just use bits and pieces of what

726
00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:30,356
Speaker 2: they tell us, but I'd like you to hear more

727
00:42:30,396 --> 00:42:35,516
Speaker 2: of it about the sociology of fandom, about federalism, about politics.

728
00:42:35,756 --> 00:42:38,516
Speaker 2: So over the next few weeks, we'll be bringing you

729
00:42:38,716 --> 00:42:42,196
Speaker 2: some of those interviews. Next week, my full conversation with

730
00:42:42,276 --> 00:42:54,796
Speaker 2: Professor Allison Lcroy Against the Rules is written and hosted

731
00:42:54,796 --> 00:42:57,396
Speaker 2: by Me, Michael Lewis and produced by Lydia gene Kott,

732
00:42:57,436 --> 00:43:01,636
Speaker 2: Catherine Gerardeau, and Ariela Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton.

733
00:43:01,956 --> 00:43:05,316
Speaker 2: Our engineer is Jake Gorski. Our music was composed by

734
00:43:05,316 --> 00:43:09,356
Speaker 2: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Sinfinet. Our

735
00:43:09,356 --> 00:43:12,996
Speaker 2: fact checker is Lauren Vespoli. The Supreme Court audio in

736
00:43:13,036 --> 00:43:17,076
Speaker 2: this episode comes from Oya dot Org Special thanks to

737
00:43:17,116 --> 00:43:19,036
Speaker 2: a few more folks who made this season of Against

738
00:43:19,076 --> 00:43:24,596
Speaker 2: the Rules possible. Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cone, Sarah Nix, Christina Sullivan,

739
00:43:24,876 --> 00:43:30,676
Speaker 2: Kerry Brody, Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Jake Flanagan,

740
00:43:31,236 --> 00:43:36,916
Speaker 2: Owen Miller, Sarah Buguerier, Jacob Goldstein, and Sophie Krane. Against

741
00:43:36,916 --> 00:43:40,956
Speaker 2: the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To find

742
00:43:40,956 --> 00:43:45,796
Speaker 2: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts

743
00:43:46,236 --> 00:43:49,316
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to podcasts, And if you'd like

744
00:43:49,396 --> 00:43:52,796
Speaker 2: to listen to ad free and learn about other exclusive offerings,

745
00:43:53,196 --> 00:43:56,036
Speaker 2: don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription

746
00:43:56,476 --> 00:44:00,356
Speaker 2: at pushkin dot fm, slash plus or on our Apple

747
00:44:00,396 --> 00:44:01,916
Speaker 2: show page.

748
00:44:07,996 --> 00:44:11,436
Speaker 10: I was at the Super somebody's home during the Super

749
00:44:11,476 --> 00:44:14,356
Speaker 10: Bowl a year or so ago, and one of my

750
00:44:14,396 --> 00:44:16,876
Speaker 10: neighbors was there and had this little computer in his

751
00:44:16,996 --> 00:44:19,596
Speaker 10: hander is his cell phone, and he said, I just

752
00:44:19,756 --> 00:44:24,796
Speaker 10: bet that sometime during this game, someone will attempt to

753
00:44:24,836 --> 00:44:28,036
Speaker 10: hit a field goal and it will hit the goal posts.

754
00:44:28,636 --> 00:44:30,876
Speaker 10: And I said, Jesus Christ, you know who would bet

755
00:44:30,876 --> 00:44:33,436
Speaker 10: on something like that. And then about five minutes later

756
00:44:33,476 --> 00:44:34,516
Speaker 10: it happened.

757
00:44:34,236 --> 00:44:36,596
Speaker 2: When that person bet on a field goal, hitting the

758
00:44:36,596 --> 00:44:38,356
Speaker 2: goal post. Did you turn to him and say, do

759
00:44:38,396 --> 00:44:39,556
Speaker 2: you know why you can do this?

760
00:44:40,916 --> 00:44:41,996
Speaker 10: Now he knew