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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.

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Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, Alisa Donovan here back with a new episode

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Speaker 3: of Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 1: This is our.

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Speaker 3: Second part of my interview with Sarah Edmondson, where she

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Speaker 3: talks about getting out of Nexium, the branding that they

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Speaker 3: went through, and all of the work that she is

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Speaker 3: doing today to help people escape cults and ideally never

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Speaker 3: get involved with one. How much do you think actually

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Speaker 3: being a mom in the midst of this helped you

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Speaker 3: get out of it, because you must have thought, oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, wait a second.

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Speaker 2: It definitely helped me having Troy and I know I'm

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Speaker 2: jumping ahead a little bit in the timeline. I know, sorry,

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Speaker 2: I'll put it my fault, my fault, paramedapaz, I'll book

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Speaker 2: a back me too, Yay to talk about this topplements

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Speaker 2: were taking later, but later, but that having him not

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Speaker 2: only grounded me in reality and forced me to heal

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Speaker 2: like so many things. I tell Troy that all the time,

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Speaker 2: not to put too much pressure on him. He's eleven now,

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Speaker 2: but he was he was, you know, almost three at

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Speaker 2: the time, and he's such a such a gift. But

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Speaker 2: I do think that the last two years before I left,

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Speaker 2: I had been focusing on him in my in my marriage,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we were traveling a lot, so we

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Speaker 2: were also a bit stressed. But I think ultimately in

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Speaker 2: the growth of the stripe path, which was the sort

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Speaker 2: of backbone of an exiom, I was not growing. And

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Speaker 2: the you know, they used to give me things to

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Speaker 2: kind of keep me hooked. Like they promoted me to

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Speaker 2: green sash at a time when I was like, I

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Speaker 2: think I'd just given birth to Troy. And if anyone

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Speaker 2: knows that for the Nexium nerds out there, I was

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Speaker 2: an orange three stripe proctor. In other words, I had

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Speaker 2: to get another stripe and then I would get my

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Speaker 2: green sash, and that was taking so long. And the

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Speaker 2: week they skipped me, they skipped a rank and promoted

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Speaker 2: me to proctor or to senior proctor, which is green sash,

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Speaker 2: which is like, was great, and I was really happy,

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Speaker 2: but I was like, did I rear most? Like how

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Speaker 2: did I like? I think they would. They just were

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Speaker 2: trying to give me the thing that I was going for,

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Speaker 2: so I'd stay in lide.

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Speaker 3: So you stay right and keep recruiting people and keep

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Speaker 3: doing recruiting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that had happened a few years earlier, but

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Speaker 2: I hadn't got my first stripe on my sash, and

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Speaker 2: I wasn't working through my issues and I was I

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Speaker 2: had stagnated. So when Lauren invited me, it was the

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Speaker 2: main selling point for me is that I'd get to

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Speaker 2: spend time with Lauren and work with her and we

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Speaker 2: get to check in daily. And it's called a master

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Speaker 2: slave relationship, but that's not you know, it's not really

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Speaker 2: a master's like that's how she's that's how she painted it.

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Speaker 2: It was like, you know, we call it master slave,

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Speaker 2: Like you're gonna like you're gonna, you know, text me

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Speaker 2: as master and I'm in yes, but like right, which

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Speaker 2: to anyone else listening would be like, that's so fucked up.

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Speaker 3: Well, when you see the actual you know, the they share,

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Speaker 3: the text messages and the vows, you can see them,

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Speaker 3: it's like, yes, from the outside, you say this is

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Speaker 3: ludicrous that these people would do this, But then you

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Speaker 3: also think, oh, okay, you know it could be sort

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Speaker 3: of like a joke and I think, you know, you

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Speaker 3: say at one point, this is like a metaphor, This

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Speaker 3: isn't a real master slave thing, but it really was

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Speaker 3: because you are right, let's talk about the branding that

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Speaker 3: everyone I yes.

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Speaker 2: Please well read the news fish just to say one

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Speaker 2: more thing about master Slave, because I think that one

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Speaker 2: talking point that I've come to recently when people tell

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Speaker 2: me about like, well, that's crazy, how but then they

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Speaker 2: tell me how they did hazing and a sorority, Yes,

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Speaker 2: and they did stuff, and you're like, well that's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Well that's crazy too. And also it's the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Like I lived in Vancouver, Lauren is in Albany. It's

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Speaker 2: not like I'm in a cage and she's got me

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Speaker 2: on a leash, do you know what I mean? Or

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Speaker 2: dog collar, Like we're in separate places. So it is

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Speaker 2: a metaphor, it's a game. It's an exercise in, you know,

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Speaker 2: putting someone else above you and honoring them and doing

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Speaker 2: something for them. And then they were gonna have people

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Speaker 2: doing that for me eventually, which you know, as you know,

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Speaker 2: because you followed, like didn't really pan out, which is great, yes,

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Speaker 2: but that was that was really like the main reason

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Speaker 2: is to be able to work with her, and the

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Speaker 2: master Slave stuff was like just weird. But the branding

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Speaker 2: was something that was pitched as as I understood it

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Speaker 2: as like a mark on my body like a tattoo.

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Speaker 2: Now in the trial, Lauren verified that everything I said

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Speaker 2: was true, but she said that she did tell me

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Speaker 2: I was going to get a brand, which she may have, but.

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Speaker 3: I think you would never think I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: branded like cattle. I think I can imagine where if

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Speaker 3: you hear that word, it would sound like, oh, a

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Speaker 3: brand of like a like a symbol, you know something.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's that's what I've come to realize because she

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Speaker 2: may have used the word brand, But up until the

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Speaker 2: night of the branding, I didn't know that humans could

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Speaker 2: be branded. I thought that was something that just happened

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Speaker 2: to cattle. She said. She said that she told me branding,

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Speaker 2: but what I remember is a mark on my body

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Speaker 2: like a tattoo. And then I was like, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to get a tattoo. I never don't have any tattoos.

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Speaker 2: I had a whole thing about that was my main

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Speaker 2: sticking point, master slave fine.

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Speaker 3: Tattooing, But doesn't that and forget you forgive me if

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Speaker 3: I'm wrong. But that's also as a Jewish of the

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Speaker 3: Jewish faith, that's pretty A lot of people have feelings

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Speaker 3: about tattoos in general, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean there were times when I was

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Speaker 2: a teenager that I'd considered it, but ultimately that's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons. Yeah, so I was Jewish. I stalled

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Speaker 2: for a while committing to DOS mostly because of that.

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Speaker 2: So I just felt really uncomfortable. And one of the

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Speaker 2: things that kind of tipped me over the edge to

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Speaker 2: help me say yes. And this is so dumb, but

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Speaker 2: because Lauren was staying at my house and we were

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Speaker 2: doing an intensive together that week, but I ran into

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Speaker 2: another proctor who was like lower rank than me and

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Speaker 2: much less committed, and she like kind of winced and

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Speaker 2: like tugged at because Lauren told me where the mark

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Speaker 2: was going to be, like right here under my under

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Speaker 2: your bikini line. And then the next day or maybe

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Speaker 2: even that day, I saw this friend of mine kind

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Speaker 2: of like oof, and I was like, are you okay?

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Speaker 2: And she's like, oh yeah, it's just like a little cut,

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Speaker 2: and she was like all sketchy about it. I was

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Speaker 2: like she's in this thing, like oh wow.

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Speaker 1: Right, And then you felt like, wait, I.

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Speaker 3: Should be I'm I'm higher up, I should be doing this,

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Speaker 3: or how if she can do it?

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Speaker 1: I certainly should exactly so twisted.

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Speaker 3: So so you fly to Alby then and knowing that

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Speaker 3: this is what you're going to do is yeah.

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Speaker 2: This recruited in January and in March I flew to

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Speaker 2: meet my sisters and have my initiation ceremony is what

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Speaker 2: they called it. So that was the that was the

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Speaker 2: big plan.

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Speaker 3: And this is for people who don't know. I can't

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Speaker 3: express enough how disturbing this is. It is like a

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Speaker 3: cauterizing iron right that is put on your body, and

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Speaker 3: I mean, tell me about that. You all have to

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Speaker 3: be naked. The subversive, the controlling aspects of this entire

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Speaker 3: ceremony are so despicable to me, and they're so insidious

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Speaker 3: and so twisted. Can you explain it with as much

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Speaker 3: as that you're comfortable that you're being held down by

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Speaker 3: other women who are then you're supposed to feel good

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Speaker 3: about that somehow, and then are branded with this thing

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Speaker 3: that a woman is also a female doctor is doing

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Speaker 3: with no anesthetic. I am like, I just my heart

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Speaker 3: breaks for everyone who went through that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I I'd love to just leave it at that,

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Speaker 2: because you summarize it so nicely, but it is I

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Speaker 2: have to tell you. Sometimes I feel great, not great.

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Speaker 2: I feel fine in walking through it. Other times I

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Speaker 2: just like I don't have the capacity because it does

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Speaker 2: like bring up stuff and it's sort of re traumatizing.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to kind of like talk about it loosely,

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Speaker 2: but if I really, if I really think about it,

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Speaker 2: I break down. So I have to just sort of

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Speaker 2: like it's almost like I have to dissociate a little

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Speaker 2: bit to talk about it. I understand.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, so only what you feel you would

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Speaker 1: like to say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. I feel like when I talk about

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Speaker 2: it that way, it just comes across as kind of

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Speaker 2: callous and like like I'm a right flippant you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean, And I don't want like everything you

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Speaker 2: just said is really true. It's you know, it was

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Speaker 2: designed to trauma bond us. It was designed to you know,

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Speaker 2: make this come that would not only bond us, but

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Speaker 2: like it was we were naked, like that was filmed

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Speaker 2: that that was more collateral that was used against us,

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Speaker 2: and so people were if they were like, once you're there,

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Speaker 2: it's really hard to go back and yeah, this isn't

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Speaker 2: This is actually how my book starts is like I'm on,

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Speaker 2: I'm supposed to get on the table, or maybe I'm

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Speaker 2: on the table. I don't remember, but like I I

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Speaker 2: want I don't want to be there. I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out how to leave. I'm, you know, gas letting myself,

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Speaker 2: going like Sarah, you said, you said you were gonna

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Speaker 2: do this, You're gonna do it no matter what. And

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Speaker 2: I'm also like, I don't I don't want this, like

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Speaker 2: I don't want it, but I have to do it,

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Speaker 2: and I had the What people don't understand is that

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Speaker 2: in these situations with course of control, the collateral was

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Speaker 2: used as a gun to my head, like that was

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Speaker 2: going to be released and if I didn't follow my commitment,

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Speaker 2: which is to do whatever my master told me. Now,

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Speaker 2: when I agreed to be her slave, I said to

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Speaker 2: her very specifically, what kind of things are you going

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Speaker 2: to ask me to do that I have to agree to,

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Speaker 2: like rob a bank that was the right to something.

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Speaker 2: What I said, She just no, these are all going

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Speaker 2: to be things for your growth. I'm only going to

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Speaker 2: ask you to do things, and I'm only going to

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Speaker 2: ask you to do things that I've done myself and

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Speaker 2: that are good for you. And so the way that

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Speaker 2: this was presented is I was going to do something

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Speaker 2: difficult and painful and without anesthetic that if I got through,

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Speaker 2: it would build my character and give me strength and

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Speaker 2: experience the kind of pain that is the backbone of

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Speaker 2: this loving master slave relationship. Now I know this sounds

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Speaker 2: like total garbage, but like all of those words have

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Speaker 2: years and years of indoctrination and so belief behind them. Right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: trainings like hours and hours and hours of trainings you

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Speaker 2: can't even imagine. So for me, you know, I was

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Speaker 2: there for hours. I was there. My particular branding I

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Speaker 2: think was somewhere between twenty and forty minutes. Some people

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Speaker 2: took closer to an hour. It was a cauterizing pen

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Speaker 2: that was sort of dragged along your skin over the

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Speaker 2: over a stencil, so there was a stencil of the

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Speaker 2: symbol on my body. And then every line took like,

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Speaker 2: you know, five to ten seconds, and then they'd stop

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Speaker 2: and there'd be some you know, some mumbo jumbo about

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Speaker 2: commitment and honor and Guru and I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Holy so like in the middle of it, then it's like,

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Speaker 3: this is why you're doing this, like some spiritual uh

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Speaker 3: readings or something like what was I don't even remember.

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Speaker 2: I can't, Like, I'm so I disassociated so hard that

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I know that, Like there were times

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Speaker 2: when we were laughing. It was so uncomfortable. There were

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Speaker 2: times when we were crying. There were times when I

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Speaker 2: was like floating above my body. I mean it was

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Speaker 2: it was very, very, very painful.

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Speaker 1: And who is leading the process?

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Speaker 2: We so Lauren, Lauren was leading the process, and there

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Speaker 2: was a woman who is the who is an osteopath,

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Speaker 2: who was doing the branding.

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Speaker 1: She was also arrested right the Doctor Miam movie.

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Speaker 2: She's not arrested, she lost her license. Okay, Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: I at least I can't Yeah, I can't speak too

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Speaker 2: much about that because there was a civil case. But

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Speaker 2: needless to say, she still believes that I am in

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Speaker 2: the wrong.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've been to differ with her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. She says that I chose it and knew everything

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Speaker 2: that was going to happen, and to which I say,

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Speaker 2: even if I said, yeah, you know, master, would you

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Speaker 2: brand me? It would be an honor as instructed, And

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Speaker 2: even if I said okay to all these things, I

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Speaker 2: did not agree to having Keith's initials on my body.

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Speaker 2: That information was helped.

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Speaker 1: For me, when did you realize that is what in

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Speaker 1: fact the symbol was?

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Speaker 2: That was months? That was I would say, I think

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Speaker 2: it's like less than two months later. So between the

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Speaker 2: time that the brand and that and that, a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of other stuff went went on like a dos

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Speaker 2: amped up. Lauren asked for the deed to my house.

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Speaker 2: She said that there was going to be new collateral

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Speaker 2: required every month.

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Speaker 1: And did that tell you?

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Speaker 2: Was that?

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Speaker 3: Like, wait, that's when you started to say I've got

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Speaker 3: to get out of here.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Like what was the thing that made you?

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Speaker 3: What was really the thing that that that put you

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Speaker 3: over the edge when you said this is I have

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Speaker 3: to leave.

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Speaker 1: This is bad.

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Speaker 2: There were so many things and one of the one

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Speaker 2: of the things that we talk about with our guests

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Speaker 2: when they come on the podcast when they're leaving, it's

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Speaker 2: never necessarily one thing. It's a whole bunch of little things, moments, interactions,

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Speaker 2: thoughts that you put on a metaphorical shelf, and then

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Speaker 2: often there is the last thing that causes the shelf

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Speaker 2: to break. But it's not one thing. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: moment when I was able to piece it all together

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Speaker 2: and see the full picture was after a series of

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Speaker 2: those moments, a couple months of and really twelve years

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Speaker 2: of things that I couldn't reconcile, like why is Keith

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Speaker 2: walking into this event with two women beside him? Oh?

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Speaker 2: That must be his executive team. Oh, you know, like

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Speaker 2: just all these all of these things that were like

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Speaker 2: that's weird. And why is everybody late coming back from lunch?

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Speaker 2: They must be busy. Oh. Never wouldn't think that they

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Speaker 2: were all going to have threesomes while we were all

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Speaker 2: doing training sessions, you know, like right found out later, Right,

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Speaker 2: So all of these things came to a head when

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Speaker 2: Mark Vacenta and I and I'm keep in mind Mark

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Speaker 2: for Sentae is the filmmaker who brought me in.

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Speaker 3: Yes, who had done this film called What the Bleep

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Speaker 3: Do We know? That it was about quantum physics and

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Speaker 3: it was quite successful. It was huge in theaters, huge documentary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So he in those two months where things were

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Speaker 2: like falling apart, his wife had left. Then. This is

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Speaker 2: in the vow, not so much in my book, but

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Speaker 2: in the vow she'd left.

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Speaker 3: Bonnie who was a well known actress at the time

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Speaker 3: as well, who had been in Star Wars, and a

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Speaker 3: couple of very big projects.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sidebar inside my side voice was like, yay, Bonnie,

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Speaker 2: go back to la pursue acting. That's what you should

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Speaker 2: be doing. That's what was going on for me internally.

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Speaker 2: Externally I had to be like, hey, Bonnie, can you

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Speaker 2: like sign this NDA Like It's just there was so

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Speaker 2: much going on. I didn't know if Mark was going

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Speaker 2: to leave. Mark was my business partner, we ran the

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Speaker 2: Vancouver Center together. Everything's falling apart, and he finally tells

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Speaker 2: me why he's leaving, which is that he had heard

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Speaker 2: and is aware of some secret thing going on in

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Speaker 2: Albany with all the women. So he knows about that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that he knew. He shares that, And

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Speaker 2: this is where my book kind of turns into a

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Speaker 2: bit of a thriller, because it's like it moves very

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Speaker 2: fast at this point because he knows about that, and

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Speaker 2: he tells me that he's heard that women have had

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Speaker 2: been giving assignments, which I knew about because I'd had assignments.

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Speaker 2: But he said some of the women had assignments to

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Speaker 2: have sex with Keith. So that is when I put

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Speaker 2: everything together. I was like, Oh, that's what this is.

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Speaker 2: And Lauren had told me right, Lauren ha told me

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Speaker 2: there's nothing to do with Keith. Keith like, Keith doesn't

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Speaker 2: know about it. No men are involved, and now it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: Keith's pulling the strings. Oh that's that's what it is.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 2: And another moment that had been on my shelf that

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Speaker 2: I forgot to say. During the branding, Lauren asked me

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Speaker 2: to film. We took turns filming.

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Speaker 1: Filming the actual branding processing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, every woman was filmed with Oh god, and I

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Speaker 2: was holding her phone and a text came through from

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Speaker 2: Kaar that said how are they all doing with each other?

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Speaker 2: And I didn't know if that was ka R, Keith,

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Speaker 2: Alan Rainieri or k R. Karen, who was a friend

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Speaker 2: of was another high ranking person. So I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: does Keith know about this?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is in the middle when all

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Speaker 3: the branding it's happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or does Karen? Is Karen involved? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Put it on the show. Text come through and they

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Speaker 2: go right it like it was gone and I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to go look looking through it. So I was like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: so Keith is now now I know, Okay, Well, Keith

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Speaker 2: has seeing my naked body now I know that Keith,

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Speaker 2: You know, Keith is fully aware of all like, oh fuck.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, and Mark and I have this conversation. He

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Speaker 2: tells me what he knows, I tell him what I know,

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Speaker 2: and together we're like that. That was the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the end. I mean that, I mean that was the end.

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Speaker 2: That was We're out holy sor I'm in a Blackmle

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Speaker 2: pyramid scheme right, involving sex slavery.

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Speaker 3: Thank god you had one another though, right. It must

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Speaker 3: have helped to have somebody that was like, I'm here too,

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Speaker 3: We're gonna we're gonna get out of here, like we're

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Speaker 3: going to somehow do this. It's very important that we

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Speaker 3: get into what you're doing now and how you're helping people.

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Speaker 3: But we need to talk about Alison mac and her

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Speaker 3: position in all of this. I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: are allowed to talk about her or if you aren't

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Speaker 3: allowed to talk about her. I have my own personal feelings.

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Speaker 1: She has just started.

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Speaker 3: She went to prison for several years. She was convicted

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Speaker 3: of racketeering and some sex trafficking and some other things

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Speaker 3: that you might know the specifics of.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but she was very much complicit in this, but

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Speaker 3: also a victim as everyone was. So that's a very

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Speaker 3: complicated position to be in. She spoke in on a

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Speaker 3: podcast in the fall called Alison after Nexium, and then

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Speaker 3: she just spoke with Michael Rosenbaum, one of her former

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Speaker 3: castmates in Smallville one. I want to know if you

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Speaker 3: have listen to those two. I want to know how

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Speaker 3: you have got like seven denda questions.

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Speaker 1: So so first, have you listened to them?

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Speaker 2: Yeap, you have? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Can you say how you feel about it? Your response?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel very It's very complicated, like

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Speaker 2: it's there's not like it's not a binary like yes

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Speaker 2: or no or good or bad. It's like many feelings.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm thrilled for her that she's found love with

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Speaker 2: somebody who has had a similar background, Like what are

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Speaker 2: the chances? I would love to say that, I'm it's

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Speaker 2: a bit camp It's it is, I'm a bit I'm

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Speaker 2: a bit hog tied because of the civil case.

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Speaker 1: So oh okay, okay, but but.

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Speaker 2: But the but the long and short of it is

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Speaker 2: that it's just hard to It's just it's just hard

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Speaker 2: to know how you know what goes on in people's heads.

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Speaker 2: I wish her well, I hope that she can get

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Speaker 2: her life back on track. I don't. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how how much she fully understands the extent.

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Speaker 3: Of That's how I feel and listening to it as

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Speaker 3: an outsider, I'm like, this is not a healthy person.

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Speaker 3: This is not a healthy person, and she doesn't know

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Speaker 3: that she's not healthy. And it sounds very performative to me.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like someone who is thinks they're far more

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Speaker 3: educated and capable than they actually are. I do not

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Speaker 3: think that she understands what went down here. She sounds

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Speaker 3: like she's priming herself to start her own freaking cult.

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Speaker 1: I don't like.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to say this enough, but it

396
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Speaker 3: was alarming listening to her.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no,

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Speaker 1: Why why are we allowing this to be This person

399
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: is not okay? And I don't think that she.

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Speaker 3: Is capable of truly understanding or being accountable. And I

401
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 3: also get it's complicated. It's like, damned if you do

402
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 3: damned if you don't like. It's a hard I do

403
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 3: appreciate that, and I clearly don't know what it's like

404
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 3: to be in that position. I'm just saying instinctually what

405
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 3: I feel on my insides when I am hearing her speak.

406
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Speaker 3: It is not healthy and I don't think she should

407
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Speaker 3: be speaking publicly.

408
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: That's my feeling.

409
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you, and I think that sort of

410
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Speaker 2: the key moment that kind of exposed that for me

411
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Speaker 2: is I don't remember when she was talking about how

412
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Speaker 2: people read victim impact statements about everything that she did

413
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,719
Speaker 2: and yes, Natalie was like, how was that? She's like, well,

414
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Speaker 2: it's so hard, like my family had to hear that.

415
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 2: I'm like, how about it was hard because you had

416
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Speaker 2: to direct because you did it? Did it? Yeah? Yes?

417
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,239
Speaker 3: That was a yes, Like yeah, there's no culpability in

418
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 3: that statement. There's no accountability. And I think that she

419
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 3: is smart enough to know how to and the fact

420
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Speaker 3: that she went back to college and expected to take

421
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 3: psychology courses and gender studies and not have people be

422
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 3: upset that she's in their class and she's.

423
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Speaker 1: Going, hey, why don't you read this for your your paper?

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Speaker 3: This might be helpful, Like it is grandiose, beyond description

425
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 3: to me, and I hate you know, I feel conflicted

426
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 3: in speaking about another woman in that way, but I

427
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 3: really feel like that's dangerous. Whereas and again I'm not trying.

428
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 3: I know I'm interviewing you and not her, and but

429
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Speaker 3: I really I meant everything I said in the beginning

430
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Speaker 3: that you there there is an integrity and a groundedness.

431
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 1: And a and a.

432
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: Humility about the way that you speak and the things

433
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 3: that you say that feels very authentic to me, and

434
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 3: feel like you are healing through this and understanding your

435
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 3: position and the others and actually putting the pain into

436
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 3: purpose in a.

437
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: Real way and in not a performative way.

438
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 3: Like it just feels very different when I hear you

439
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 3: and when I read the things that you write and

440
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 3: the things that you say, it feels different to me.

441
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. It's I mean, I try to be myself.

442
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm myself, and I know that in nexiom,

443
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: being performative and authentic was something that Allison was ironically

444
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 2: was working on. And you interesting, that's so that when

445
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 2: I see when I see it, I'm like, that's like,

446
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: she's still Alison still. And I also felt, truthfully that

447
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: kind of Natalie got a bit caught up in that.

448
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: Yes I did too, what I mean, I was like, wait,

449
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: does I get out what's going on here?

450
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: I was like, do if you feel for the Allison Show, Like,

451
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: I don't.

452
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: Know, this is it exactly?

453
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: This is how I felt in listening to it. And

454
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 3: I was very confused by that. And then like, oh,

455
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: you're not going to talk to anyone else, Oh but

456
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 3: I will. I'll talk to that my my castmate who

457
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: was famous and on television. Oh okay, I'll talk to

458
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 3: him too. I just like it gives me. It doesn't

459
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: sit right with me.

460
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 2: I did tell I did tell Michael because I'd been

461
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: on his podcast too, and oh you had been yeah,

462
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 2: like a long like when I first came out, and

463
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: I told him that I thought I did, like for

464
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: the for his podcast. I think he did what he like,

465
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: he's not a cult specialist, like he's right, yes, right,

466
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 2: like that's that was he was in his lane and.

467
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: It was certainly, yes, it was.

468
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 2: It was. It was totally fine. Had I been there,

469
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 2: I would have been like when she he says, like,

470
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: what were some of the red flags she missed an opportunity,

471
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: like there were so many red flags that she experienced,

472
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 2: you know, like that would be something to share. I mean,

473
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: I think the podcast has even though it was hard

474
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: for me to listen and for you and many others

475
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: to listen to I had. I think it has value

476
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: in showing kind of like how these things happen and

477
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 2: what her journey was and how she went for me

478
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 2: to zee. But I yeah, in terms of like her

479
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: culpability and her awareness level and all that stuff like

480
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: time shall tell right, right, you.

481
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: Know, sometimes we need to just listen a little bit.

482
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: Uh. I wish I could. I wish I could speak

483
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: more freely.

484
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: I know, I'm sure and I'm certainly not trying to

485
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: like exploit you in any way, So we won't we can.

486
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: I just had to. That's my own feeling.

487
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: So have you listened to Nancy Salzman on Kate Casey? No?

488
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: But I I did listen to her because again I

489
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: just watched the VOW again and I was watching her

490
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 3: episodes of like, no, tell me about that one?

491
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: What do I need to listen to?

492
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: Casey does an episode with Nancy and she's I mean

493
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 2: that was very difficult to listen to because there's zero

494
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: responsibility taken and talks about how, you know, my company

495
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: had no problems in it. My company was helping people.

496
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: DOS was where the problems were. My company was perfect

497
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: and it was a lot of like, I are you

498
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: kidding me?

499
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 3: That's a whole other episode for you and I to

500
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 3: talk about, because I just like from top to bottom

501
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: there Again, I also want to say, you know, we're

502
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 3: all a product of our experiences and it's what we

503
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: choose to do with that. And I can appreciate that

504
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 3: Nancy talks about her her growing up and the problems

505
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: that she had as a child and with her mom,

506
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: Like I get that we all, you know, those things

507
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: imprint us and then we you know, go through life.

508
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 3: So but we have to be accountable at a certain point,

509
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 3: like we all have baggage, we all all have things

510
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: that we've.

511
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: Been through, and then you know, we can't.

512
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: You have to say she is one hundred percent culpable,

513
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: but yes she's also a victim of his Like again,

514
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 3: very complicated.

515
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, both Alison and Nancy would not have done

516
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: any of that had it not been for Keith Hernary. Right,

517
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 2: So that's that's clear, right, And and yes, it's very

518
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: interesting to look at all the things that shape you

519
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: in your childhood and what you know makes you, Like

520
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: if you're an actress from age three and you you

521
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: know your dad's an opera singing narcissist or whatever, whenever

522
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: her thing is like, yeah, that's going to shape her

523
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: in a certain direction. But both of those people actively

524
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: lied to people like me right and said that like

525
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: Keith Rnary was a celibate renuncia, Like, right, that's a

526
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: flat out my face, that is a blatant lie. Right.

527
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: I made a lot of mistakes. I missed a lot

528
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: of red flags. I got caught up in stuff I love.

529
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: There's so many things that were I can own. I

530
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: never lied to anybody. I never said, you know, yeah,

531
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: Keith is so great, he's a celebrate, and knew that

532
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: he was looking everybody like that's something I know, right

533
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: for certain, anyway, I'd listen to it just for your

534
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: own if you want to, I will riled up, Yeah.

535
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: I definitely will.

536
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 3: All Right, before we close and talk about your new

537
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: book that you have coming out and all the great

538
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 3: work that you are doing, we should say that Keith

539
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 3: is in prison for like a bazillion years, it's one

540
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty years plus life or something like that,

541
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: like he's not getting out, which is great. And another

542
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: quote like these walks that he would go on with

543
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: people again like the disrupting people's sleep and making them

544
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: get up in the middle of the night and go

545
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: on these.

546
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: Walks with him.

547
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: But in particular, he's talking to Bonnie and says something

548
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: that she's left the cult, right or she's trying to leave,

549
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 3: and he's like, you know, you'll.

550
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: He says something to the effect of, you'll pass out.

551
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: But when you're serving humanity and your inner self, you

552
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: know you're blowing it. From a spiritual perspective, feeling enslaved

553
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: is a good you know, it's a good first step.

554
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 3: What It's just like wow, And thankfully she was like,

555
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: I think he's still gonna go. I think I'm still

556
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: gonna exit. So I do you do you ever think

557
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: about Keith? And if you do, what actually more than that,

558
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: do you think there was a moment did you have

559
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: a moment when you were like, oh, he's left my.

560
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: Psyche, like he's left my.

561
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: Brain?

562
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: Or do you think about him at all? Still?

563
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: I don't really think about him, to be honest. Every

564
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: now and then, either Nippy or I will be like,

565
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: what do you think Keith's doing right now? And I'll

566
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: be like, He'll be sitting He's sitting in his dorm

567
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: and he's looking up at his mattress and he's looking

568
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: at like the metal underneath the mattress, and he's counting

569
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: it and looking for patterns and figuring out how to

570
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: get out of jail. That's what he's doing. Or apparently

571
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: he's been like running a little group like he's been.

572
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: You know, he's he's always up to Shenanigan's. He's always

573
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: getting in trouble. So I don't want to think about

574
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: him that much. I actually like have this kind of

575
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: sick fantasy of going to visit him in prison and

576
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: just like looking at him, because I never got to

577
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: go to court and see.

578
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: Him because I was like, oh, I get that. I

579
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: get that in a.

580
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: Movie way, like it as if my life is a movie.

581
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: I should do that, but but I probably never will.

582
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know I don't. He doesn't take out

583
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: much space in my head. Yeah, I'm done with him.

584
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: Good.

585
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 3: Let's talk about you said there's no playbook for leaving

586
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: a cult. Can you talk about some of the warning

587
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: signs that people should look out for and what advice

588
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: you would give to people listening who could be in

589
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: one right now?

590
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, ultimately what I've learned since leaving, is

591
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: that so many people are either in a cult or

592
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: something cult tea, that something's not necessarily a full blown

593
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: cult in the traditional sense, but it's just toxic, you know,

594
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: or problematic, and it could be something as benign as

595
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: orange theory or something where like or CrossFit where it's like,

596
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: obviously that's not a cult, but it's called tea. And

597
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: I've now since like eight years out, like let's don't

598
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: even use the word cult because people get all up

599
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: in arms or it's overused, or you know, people don't

600
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: understand or they're like, well, my group doesn't have a

601
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: charismatic leader, therefore it's not a cult like that, it

602
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 2: doesn't have to have all the things, it has to

603
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: have some of the things. And again, let's just forget

604
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: the word cult. Is this healthy for you? So, like

605
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: with budges, back to the CrossFit example, you know, it's

606
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: all or nothing, like you, if you don't go, you

607
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: get shamed, and like people change their name nmes to

608
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: have special CrossFit names. Like all of those things are

609
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: red flags of like I don't want to do that,

610
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to I don't I don't want

611
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: to push myself to injury and if I don't, then

612
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: like I'm a pussy, Like that's right, right, Like that's

613
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: that's what. That's what, not all of them. So I've

614
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: heard that some people do that like that forget cult,

615
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: like that's just not something that how I want to live.

616
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: That's how you want to live. You know, all the

617
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: power to you. But a lot of groups know that

618
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: they're not going to Like you said, you don't join

619
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: a college on purpose. They have to provide value. People

620
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: join good things, right right, They join something and it

621
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: feels great at first. Personal development, a church, a wine club,

622
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: a yoga studio, all of these things are have value

623
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: and are are great. So like what are the red flags? Well,

624
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: starts starts benign, like you know, more intense commitment or

625
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: more money or asking for to like to make the

626
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: thing become more your life, to be more of a

627
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:13,239
Speaker 2: commitment towards a particular thing. Other red flags are like,

628
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: you know, let's say you get involved and then like

629
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: you feel like you can't question or if you're shamed

630
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: if your question, or if people leave and everyone talks

631
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: shit about them, or you can't talk to them as

632
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: people love like shunning is involved. I mean there's there's

633
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: there's so many things that I feel like you can

634
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: isolate them, and even with nexim like people would say

635
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: when I was in it, like yeah, I think that

636
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: might be a cult. And never had no one ever

637
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: did a proper intervention with me, but they said that

638
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: I was in a cult. It's like, yeah, it's a cult.

639
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: It's a group of people, and we're a group of

640
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: like highly successful, happy people. I don't care if you

641
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: think I'm in a cult because I love my cult.

642
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: And that's what a lot of a lot of people

643
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: are trained to say. They don't see what's bad about it.

644
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: So the bad thing is always some kind of bait

645
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: and sweat which you think you're doing personal development, which

646
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: is what I was doing for a long time. But

647
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: then when you're fully committed, you'll become a spiritual wife

648
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: for the leader in Albany, Like that's really right, but

649
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: that it's actually the endgame, the endgame. But for a

650
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: lot of people that wasn't the end game. They were

651
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: just taking trainings all around North America and for them,

652
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: they weren't in a sex cult. They were in a

653
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: personal development program. To this day, they're like, oh, like

654
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 2: I don't want to be associated with that thing because

655
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: they just took trainings and were fine. So for many people,

656
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: the endgame is just to have recruits that are bringing

657
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: in money. So a lot of people are involved in

658
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: things on the profhery and they think it's fine. And

659
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to say something controversial because I know a

660
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: lot of people in LA do transcendental meditation for example,

661
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: when they have a mantra or like you said, they

662
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: do the forum and they take trainings, you're probably fine.

663
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: But in the inner circle of these organizations, those are

664
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: legit cults in my opinion, right, so.

665
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: Well, because there's a certain thing you have to do, right,

666
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 3: like you have to give a certain amount of money

667
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: and you have to do it x amount of time

668
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: a day for TM for example.

669
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you're gonna meditate and have a mantra,

670
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: there's nothing there's that's not a problem. It's when you

671
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 2: like go to the training session center and you become

672
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: a teacher and you start dedicating your time and volunteering

673
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: because you're doing something for service. And next thing, you know,

674
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 2: like you're cutting off your family because they don't really

675
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: get it, and then you're asked to like you know,

676
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: move and be more like. So, colts work in very

677
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: specific ways. They draw you in with something good. They

678
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: have to dangle a hook, something of value. Then they

679
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: isolate you from the rest of the world, and then

680
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: they create a dependency. I mean it's not even like linear.

681
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: These are all sort of happening at the same time.

682
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: Like the love bombing is happening while you're getting isolated

683
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: and more dependent in creating a system that you have

684
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: to commit to and everything else lily gets cut off.

685
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: And the more that people do that, the harder is

686
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: to to go like, oh shit, I'm a mistake. I

687
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: better like reach out for help because also we tend

688
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: to burn bridges for people who don't support us and

689
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: get it. And you mean, my thought right now to

690
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: anybody is like, if you're questioning if what you're involved

691
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: in is a cult, it it probably is or is

692
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: just something that like check in with yourself, what is

693
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: it about it that I don't like? And if you're

694
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: not sure, don't go to the leadership. Don't talk to

695
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: people who are still really dedicated, because they'll bring you

696
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: back in. Find people who left. Go on Reddit, see

697
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: if there's a documentary made about it. Google is so

698
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: and so is the form of cult is transdentiment meditation?

699
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: A cult is next day of a cult? Like, there's

700
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: going to be a lot of information and it's that

701
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: I wish I had researched before, you know, before I

702
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: do my five day.

703
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: What's the hardest thing for you personally to sit with now?

704
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 3: Just knowing that the people that you brought in you

705
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: still feel like or with the entire thing, Like, what's

706
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: the hardest thing for you to sit with?

707
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: Or isn't there is there nothing?

708
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: I think the hardest thing is for the people that

709
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: remain that The thing that takes up most of my

710
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 2: space in my head is like some of the people

711
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: that remain loyal, even if I didn't like directly recruit them,

712
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: are there because of people that I recruited. So like

713
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 2: in my tree in they called it the organization by pyramid.

714
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: You know, I recruited people who recruited people who are

715
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: still loyal and are still dedicating their life for us.

716
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,959
Speaker 3: There are still people dedicated to him and to this

717
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 3: are people.

718
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: Still outside there.

719
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 3: I know there's a point where women were dancing outside

720
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 3: of it. It's like very Charles Manson also, I know,

721
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 3: and the family for the record.

722
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: But is that still happening? Are people like dancing outside

723
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: of that.

724
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 2: They're not dancing. They have a group that gets together

725
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: and they zoom and they and they sometimes they post stuff.

726
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: They haven't been very active since Nikki Klein left and

727
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: NICKI was the main person that I was thinking about

728
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: and praying. I don't I'm not even religious, like just

729
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: and having reoccurring dreams. She's out, she's woken up, but

730
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: she's not. We can't talk yet because of the civil case. Okay,

731
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: but there were and she was part of that dancing group. Yeah,

732
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: so there there are women there who are still in

733
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: and I just like I I I would love for

734
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: them to wake up and get on with their lives.

735
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: And there's also a lot of people who I know

736
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: left who were like at my wedding and I was

737
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: at their wedding and we have not spoken and I

738
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 2: don't even know how to reach them, like people that

739
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: kind of disappeared. I love to have closure, you know,

740
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: I'd love to, you know, even I don't need like

741
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: a I don't need like a gratitude call, like hey,

742
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: thanks for freeing me from the you know, from this

743
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: slavery or.

744
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: Whatever, like here's a here's a Starbucks gift card.

745
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: Thanks for I will take me, but no, I just

746
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: I just would like some clothes. With a lot of people,

747
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: that eats me up. I feel like I've made amends

748
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: as far as I know with anyone that like I

749
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: brought in in terms of helping them get on their

750
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: feet or get legal support or therapy. If I miss

751
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: somebody and they're listening to this, please reach out, Like

752
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: I don't know what, I don't know, but I feel

753
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: like I've cleaned up my side of the street in

754
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: that way. Yeah, but I mean it eats me up. Also,

755
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: separate from nextem that there's just so many things out

756
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: there and people don't know, and it's so easy to

757
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: get hooked, to get wrapped, so easy.

758
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 3: So this brings us to our book. You have a

759
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: new book coming out very soon. Yes, it's called A

760
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: little Bit Culty. Also the name of your podcast, which

761
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 3: is a phenomenal name altogether, let's just say so the

762
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: book is called A Little Bit Cult Navigating Cults, control

763
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 3: and Coercion.

764
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about that and when

765
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: it wi will be out.

766
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: I'm so so you're like the first interview i've kind

767
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 2: of air stray, like kind of like drop little hands

768
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, it's going to be available actually on

769
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: Amazon very shortly, and we don't have it. It depends

770
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: on a couple of things because I'm self publishing this one.

771
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: I traditionally published Scarred, but I'm doing this myself, which

772
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 2: means I don't have to wait six months for it

773
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: to be out, Like it'll be available on Amazon probably

774
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: by mid February, and then Nippy and I will be like,

775
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: all the pre orders are going to get an autographed,

776
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 2: an autographed the signature from us and some ALBC merch.

777
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: But we're just like, we're just so excited because we've inadvertently,

778
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: like our podcast came out of covid and the VOW

779
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 2: and it was not something we planned as like our

780
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: career move, but it just sort of it grew and

781
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: it was organic and it was beautiful, and we talked

782
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 2: to all these people who had endured similar things to us,

783
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: and it was cathartic and we we learned. And then

784
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, we had all this information and

785
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 2: people were coming to us like, oh, oh have a

786
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: and what do I do? And I was sending people resources.

787
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: I have a resource list also on my website amazing,

788
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: which is yeah, been great to to send to people

789
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 2: and be like, Okay, there's this website for therapy, and

790
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: there's this website for legal, and there's this that's there.

791
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: But my knowledge base grew and I realized if I

792
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: had this information before, I wouldn't have joined. If I

793
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: had it during, I could have gotten out. And if

794
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 2: I had it after, I would have had a playbook

795
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: for leaving. I would have had that. And so that's

796
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: what we tried to do is put it.

797
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: All yeah, because I think some people don't understand how

798
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 3: hard it is to like the repercussions of getting out,

799
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 3: even the financial ones getting sued like next SIAM is

800
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: huge on suing people, which takes a ton of resources

801
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: to combat. When you have Claire bronfin her bank account

802
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 3: financing the entire organization, it's just endless funds and very

803
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 3: few people have that, if any, that are involved. So

804
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: there were just so aside from even the emotional difficulty

805
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: and that sort of separation, it's actually financial and quite

806
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: physical and literal often.

807
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and nobody there's there's there are books on cults, obviously,

808
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: there's tons, there's tons of memoirs, and there are some

809
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: books on recovery and healing, but there's no book on

810
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: how to navigate the media, you know, how to be

811
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: a whistleblower, how to know the difference between a podcast

812
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: versus Doctor Oz versus you know, being in a doing

813
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: Fox News, Like there's it's a it's a it's a show.

814
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: I had to learn fast. I had a great team,

815
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: like I want to put out the information so I

816
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: can give it to people, and that that chapter might

817
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: not be relevant to you, right right, But but the

818
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: chapters may be on like what to say to a

819
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: friend who's involved in something a little bit culty or

820
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: you know, just out of curiosity. All the different red

821
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: flags and all the different tactics, and we drove every tactic.

822
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: Every chapter draws from our guest experience. So it's it's

823
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: very very personal and it's very very real. It's us,

824
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: it's funny. I'm very proud of it. It was a

825
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: real labor of love. Nippy and I tested our relationship

826
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 2: to a new level of writing a book together.

827
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I bet, I mean you guys. So

828
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 3: it was sort of weathered quite a few storms. So yes,

829
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: that is also very admirable and impressive.

830
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would. I feel like if we got of

831
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 2: a cult together, can do a cult podcast together and

832
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: write a book about a cult, then we'll probably last.

833
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: You know, you'll probably stay together. I can't believe that

834
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: we have to end.

835
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 3: I just have such an incredible amount of admiration and

836
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: respect for you, and I am so thrilled that you

837
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 3: took the time to talk with me, and you just

838
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 3: have a great spirit. And I'm I hope everyone buys

839
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: your book and reads it, and again the podcast is

840
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: a little bit Culty best name ever, And I just

841
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: I hope we get a chance to talk again. And

842
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 3: maybe our kids will play basketball against each other at

843
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 3: some point.

844
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: I would love that. If I cut are you you're

845
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: in San Francisco or San Francisco? Yeah, okay, well we'll

846
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 2: have to make it happen. My life is cults and sports,

847
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: and like you said at the beginning, you know, it's

848
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: maybe this is my purpose, but it's one of the

849
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: crazy silver lining is like if I could picture myself

850
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: in the nineties knowing that, like, oh, in twenty thirty years,

851
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: you're going to be in a podcast with that cool

852
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: chick from Clueless talking to like, you know, like the

853
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: full circle, Like what are I never I would never

854
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: have this, Like that's so so cool, it's so I mean,

855
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: it's a weird way to get there, but I do

856
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: hope our pats cross in person, and it's always it's

857
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: always I used to talk to people who have good

858
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 2: questions and aren't judge, and I want to get into

859
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 2: the nitty gritty. So I really appreciate the time and

860
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: the and the thoughtfulness you put into this.

861
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I'm glad. This really has been a pleasure.

862
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Sarah, Thank you, Lisa,