WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Jonathan Shecter Part 2 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:06.760 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. All Right, y'all, 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.760 welcome to Quest Love Supreme. This summer, we sat down 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.680 with Jonathan Schechter, who is the co founder and the 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.120 first editor in chief of The Source magazine, The Hip 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.000 Hop Bible, The Source. That's right the card. Part one welcome. 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:21.919 If you haven't, make sure you check it out before 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.840 you listen to this one. And you know, Checkey spoke 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.080 about growing up in Philly, working at Howard one nine 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.200 in the early eighties, and his days at the Source 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.720 back when it was just a pamphlet at Heart Cool. 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.120 I got to answer, Oh, it's Jonathan Schechter. He's telling 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.080 me to wrap it up. All right, guys, listen to 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:43.240 part two right now of Jonathan Schechter The Source Peter. 0:00:54.480 --> 0:01:00.400 Okay, So what happened was we had halftime and Live 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:05.600 of the Barbecue. Okay, to recognize's first two appearances Live 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.160 of the Barbecue. Everyone knows the main Source. I should 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.120 mention also because you brought up something about the ratings, 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.160 and I think it's important to note that those four 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.319 and mics, the ratings were the number one thing that 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.319 people spoke. There was two things that people cared about 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.320 who was on the cover and what rating did they get. 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.560 Those are the things that we hear the most feedback on. 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.840 That was what every just general person on the street 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.280 cared about. The other thing they cared about is like 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.360 seeing what the rappers were like in real life, like 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.160 you know, like what cars they drive and things like that. 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:42.000 So there was layers to it, but basically so we 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.920 actually gave If I take one more step back, there 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.320 was a brief period of time when we were reviewing 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.720 singles as well as albums given ratings to singles. We 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.200 always reviewed singles, but for a short period of time, 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.360 we actually gave the mic ratings to singles. Looking Out 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.320 the Front Door got five mics, as it should. It's 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.280 a hip hop classic, no doubt, right. I loved I 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.560 love Large Professor, I love Main Source. I think a 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.520 lot of us love love that record. That was the 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.840 only time in the history of the Source that anyone 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.800 ever thanked us for a review. We did hundreds and 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:22.000 hundreds of reviews. One time only the Sir Scratch and 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:26.400 Kcutt's mother showed up at the Source office. They were Canadian. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:31.160 Remember they're from Toronto. I think it's they're so polite, right, 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.600 those Canadians, there's so nice. They's so nice, and they 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.320 showed and this was literally all we ever got was 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:41.440 negative feedback from people that were mad. One time I 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.240 can ever recall somebody who was like, thank you so much, 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:48.040 that review meant so much to us. Here's and she 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.760 gave me a bottle of like Canadian whiskey or something 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:52.679 and I and I kept it like on my desk 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.960 for years. But she that was the only time that 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.920 anyone ever thanked us for a review. The feedback was 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.960 only either nothing, silence or negative. The only positive feedback 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.079 we ever got was from main sources, Sir Scratch and 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.480 ca Cut. There were brothers, their mother out. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.000 Yeah, shout out to uh manners and. 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.840 That's right, that's right, polite goes along with I appreciated 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.480 it that she did that. I was very nice of her. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.720 But before you tell the story, and I'm glad you 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.960 mentioned Maine source, let me ask your opinion. It was 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:32.400 actually that main source issue that was my uh not 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:39.200 north Star. But I believe that getting a four point 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.400 five getting four and a half mics in the source 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:49.040 was better than getting five mics in the source. Why 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.720 because everyone has the whole Golden era thing you say 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.560 yours is eighty four to ninety four, the period in 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:03.040 which we would have critical thing King Friday discussions of 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.440 an album like religiously like and I missed that so 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.080 much about about hip hop. Now, it's definitely between like 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.440 eighty eight and kind of ninety Maybe we stopped in 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.360 ninety six ninety seven because then it became like, well, 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:21.160 they said this was classic, and we don't think this 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.560 is classic. Like we became like olderf and Statler in 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:32.040 the Muppets, like yeah, right, But I will say that. 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.120 For me, I was like, okay, when something gets five 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.760 mics because someone in my crew didn't get why Daylas 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.359 Soul is Dead got a perfect five and I was like, dog, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.880 this is the best sequence records, the samples I never 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.599 heard before, the rhyme star like everything about this album 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.279 is pitch perfect. And they were like yeah, but you know, 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.040 you know, and he said, you know, I'm a little 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.400 biased because they you know, in his mind it was 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.640 like they're just always giving out fives, and I'm like, no, 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:02.919 it's quite the opposite. Like I think the source is 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.880 really hard to please and this example of it, but 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.559 that stuck with me, and I realized that people don't 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.440 criticize you as much if you have a four and 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.200 a half. It's almost like four and a half is 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.200 the same effect as a five, but it doesn't make 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.560 you that threatening where you got to be like man, 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.240 fuck da da da da da or I don't know. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.159 That's my theory. I always thought four and a half 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:30.839 was better than a five. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.800 And so the way the ratings worked as we got 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.400 more mature now if we're moving into like the early nineties, 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:41.440 is that we would Reggie became the music editor, as 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.880 I mentioned, and we would to sign out the reviews 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.279 to people. Sometimes I would write a couple, but for 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.240 the most part that was kind of the reviews were 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.359 kind of a place for the newer writers for the 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:53.919 most part, you know, it was kind of like a 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:55.640 way for someone to break into the source. 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.640 Yeah, you would trusted me to that instead of like 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:00.359 for like a. 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.680 Spacest album or something. I mean, you know, if not 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.720 for like the big marquee names, but for like, you know, 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.520 for like such a new artist, you know, like somebody knew. 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.120 We would give it to like somebody new because I 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.000 was a chance for them to kind of prove themselves, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:17.240 you know, the rating, but the rating okay, So there 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.599 was like a separate thing. The review would get written, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.560 but we would have a separate meeting every month with 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.040 all the main people there, the people I mentioned, and 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.840 we would discuss the ratings. And that was when would you. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.240 Thoroughly review it, like thoroughly listening to it, or just 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:32.960 like you. 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.359 Would defer to the person kind of who had you know, 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.440 if you hadn't, if I hadn't personally listened to the 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.080 whole album, I would I would try to be, you know, 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.520 cognizant of that and not not over not just just 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.080 give opinions on what I knew, you know, Like but 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.479 there were only a handful of times that I like 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:51.839 forced the issue and like put my foot down and 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.880 like we got to give this a five. Ill Matic 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:56.600 was one of those only times. 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.200 You thought it was classic material. Who was like it 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:00.040 might be four. 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:03.880 It or Reggie Reggie. Reggie was like, you know, it's not. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:05.239 We don't know if it's going to be a class 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:07.640 I mean, it was easy to say Listen five was 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.440 called a hip hop classic, so it was easy to 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:13.480 say in the course of this meeting which we had 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.760 every month, where we would discuss the ratings. Is that 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:18.560 really a hip hop classic? Is this going to be 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.280 remembered twenty years from now as like a very important 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.000 And it was a hard question. You know, You're like, here, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.120 we are ahead of even it coming out, We're like 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.840 months ahead of it. Even we're like among like maybe 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.160 a dozen people that I've even heard this record, and 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.560 now we have to decide is it going to be 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.600 a hip hop classic? It's kind of hard, you know, 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.960 It's like it's not easy in the case of Illmatic. Okay, 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:45.200 So what happened was we had heard halftime, we loved it, 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.480 loved it. That movie Zebrahead, remember I think that came 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.320 up on another one of your episodes. I saw, yeah 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.800 with the Clark Kent right, that's correct, right with Clark 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:57.480 Kent worked. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.720 At rough House, and we have the premiere at zebra 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:05.440 Head and Clark Kent starts spinning in vokes, hold on 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.119 and nods, gets up from freestyle, and I think maybe 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.360 I was like the six in line. So that's my Oh, 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:11.320 that's right, you were wrapped. 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.200 That's when you wrapped. I remember, Yes, that's right, Okay, okay, cool. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.080 So no, so I was so we loved Halftime and 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.280 Live with the Barbecue. This kid Nas incredible. You know, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.360 he was shocking. You know, I'm waving automatic guns and 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.400 nuns and you know, hell for snuffing Jesus and all 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.000 that stuff. So it was shocking. It was like shocking wrap. 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.640 But it was obviously really good and it was really literate, 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:36.800 and it was it was it sounded great, and we 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.240 were very, very hungry to hear more from this kid Nas. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.400 So I had a trip booked to Philly and on 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:46.880 the agenda was to visit Chris Schwartz and to go 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.120 to rough House Records. So I went. It might have 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.800 been an early ninety three, ninety four, I guess. So 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:54.960 when was that released. I can't remember. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.920 The summer ninety two was zebra Head, but yeah, ninety 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:00.320 three is yeah, so. 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.320 It was late ninety it was after it was after 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.200 zebra Heead, it was probably late ninety two. I go 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:09.199 to Philly and I sat in that rough House when 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.360 when rough House was in the suburbs, it was like 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.400 he had this office in the It was no longer 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.680 in the city. It was in the suburbs somewhere I remember, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:21.600 And Chris Schwartz was at the desk, and you know, 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.800 we talked about a few different things, and then you know, 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.800 rough House had some great records, you know, they had 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.840 some great stuff. So but my real agenda for being 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.320 there was I wanted to hear more Nas. I didn't 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:34.280 tell him that, but that was my true agenda for 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.079 going there. So I go there, and Chris Schwartz, as 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.240 you recall, had kind of like the air of like 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.040 a messy person, sort of like his hair was kind 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:49.320 of messy. Gems version, Yeah, exactly exactly. It was a 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:54.920 very hectic, noisy, sort of like disheveled atmosphere, right, And 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.520 so there was like a desk with like coffee cups 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.000 and piles of tapes and records and all. And so 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.839 I go in and he's like, I'm like, hey man, 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.800 you know, so we talked about other stuff, and then 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:09.240 I'm like, so listen about this guy Nas. He's like, Nas, 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:11.440 you know who that is? And I was like, yeah, 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.920 of course, we know who that is. Halftime Live with 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.840 the Barbecue. He's like, oh, man, I mean, I'm surprised 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.000 you guys know about him. And I was like, oh, 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.560 we love him, we love Nas. We're really curious to 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.960 hear more stuff, and he searches through his desk and 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.360 moves some stuff around. He picks up a cassette and 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:29.240 he hands it to me. He'say, you can check this out. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:30.719 I was like, I can keep it. He's like, yeah, yeah, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.040 you can keep it. Put it in my pocket. I 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.480 leave the meeting. I go back to thirtieth Street station. 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:39.680 I get back on the train Amtrak back to New 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.920 York City. I pop take out my Walkman, so using 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:47.400 Walkman back, then pop into the Walkman hit play, and 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.440 what I have in my hands in my Walkman is 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.679 the entire Illmatic album, like six seven months before it 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.520 came out. Okay, it was like so long in advance. 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:01.880 It was the first draft of it. There was like 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.640 multiple mixes were different. I still have this cassette, by 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.000 the way, it's still it's my office right now. Yeah, 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.480 well have it here right now. So basically I'm sitting 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:18.120 here on this Amtrak train listening to represent you know 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:25.080 one Love, you know, all these like unbelievable songs, and 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.240 by the time I get to New York, I am 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.720 like floating in the air with the realization that I 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.960 have like the Holy Grail in my pocket. I have 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.720 maybe like the greatest album I've ever heard in my life, 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.760 Like sitting and no one. It's like this feeling of 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.920 no one knows about it, no one's heard it. It 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.120 was it was like, literally like I don't know why. 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.480 I to this day, I have no idea why Chris Schwartz. 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.680 I mean, obviously he wants to promote his music, but 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.320 it was way too early to give that cassette to 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:55.600 the Source. It was like. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.040 They didn't know what they had, which is why I 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.960 think why I went back to Columbia and not on 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.800 because we had nas on rough House for the longest 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.320 and then suddenly it was like shrug, Columbia took him back. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.400 That's right, and Faith Faith knew men, yeah, and so 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.640 forth right, right and so so that's what happened. I 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:18.240 think he just didn't realize that he had this, you know, legendary, 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.520 you know, ground bright, earth shattering record here. So I 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.640 get back to New York. I immediately it's already now 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.080 it's like ten eleven o'clock at night. I go back 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.320 to the Source office downtown. I knew that some people 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.520 were going to be there. I walk in. It's Maddie 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:41.880 c Reef, Chris Wilder, Scott Free later on Loud Records, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.240 An R was there, I remember, and I walk in 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.200 and we had like a mediocre like you know system, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.240 like you know, some kind of like off the shelf 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.920 stereo system. I hit play and I play the entire 0:12:54.960 --> 0:13:00.199 album for this assembled heads the mind Squad, and literally 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.400 every single person is just like you know, like I remember, 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.320 Scott Free was literally laying on the floor like he 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.720 was so blown away, like he you know when people 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.280 like fall down out of like mock, you know, shock, 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.360 you know, like he was just the entire room was 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:20.560 just what the this is insane? This is so good especially. 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.600 Something though, Yeah, because the thing was when I had 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:28.000 those moments, they were chaotic bomb squad moments. 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:28.920 Yeah. 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:34.000 I never had that moment with a regular meat and 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:40.080 potatoes perfect beat like bo perfect yeah, perfect rhyme, just 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.080 you know, there's no novelty to it. It's not like, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.640 oh yeah it was a classic because they're using childhood 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.920 records or they're using ninety five trillion samples, like I've 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:58.080 never heard just a perfect beat, rhyme, perfection record, and 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.200 so it because it didn't come with whistles, the same 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.160 bells and whistles that three feet hind Rising was, or 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.720 Nation of Millions was, or Americans most want it was. 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.400 You know, he wasn't hyper For me, it was like 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.480 such a risk because when I heard it again, there's 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.120 that Gangstar issue. I read the review first and then 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.560 I was like, I got it and I was like, well, 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.840 it's so normal. It's one It is only ten songs, 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.240 like rap records back then were like twenty seven songs. 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.000 I was like, there's no skits, there's no no, no no. 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.240 And my manager finally brought me down to earth. He's like, yo, man, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.640 this is what intervisions. But Stevie Wonder was like there 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.680 was this nine perfect songs, like this is nine perfect songs. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.160 And I actually had to grapple with that, like I 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.480 wasn't in touch with how I felt. I still had 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.560 to follow what you guys said, and I had so 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.760 many questions about a nine bells and whistles record getting 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.640 that much much acclaim to it. But you guys instantly 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.560 felt you got goosebumps from the gate. 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.360 Yeah, I mean, I remember just I loved every song. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.480 I liked every single song, especially one Love that was 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.120 the one that pushed me over the top, Like you know, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.080 it's just so deep, you know, it just sounds so 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.720 and his lyrics are so good on it, you know, 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.680 it's just so. That was like something like, you know, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.320 six or eight months before the album ended up coming out. 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.760 So we have this holy grail now sitting in our possession. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:29.800 What do we do with it? And I think you're right. 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.360 It was that issue with Gangster on the cover, yep. 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.280 And I went and I took on the job of 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.960 because I had this experience, you know, I went and 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.040 took on the job of writing the feature about NOAs, 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.280 introducing NOAs to the world. It was called the Second 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.320 Coming and it was a reference to obviously Rock him 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.160 because that was you know, the god MC that's who 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.800 everyone viewed as pretty much the greatest rapper of all time, 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.760 almost universally, and NAS was viewed as as, you know, 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.400 the next in line for that kind of a title 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:05.600 just by us. I mean, I don't know, the world 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.360 didn't know yet, but that was how we were looking 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:11.200 at it. And we went and then matt went, Mattie 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.200 C went and interviewed all the producers that were involved, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:21.200 you know, Pete Rock, Premiere, Q Tip and Large Professor 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:23.520 and so it was like this dream team. So we 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.600 put together the story and then we still had to 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.840 do the review part of it. So we assigned it 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.840 in one of these cases again to a newer writer, 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.440 and her name was Minya oh Yeah, later known to 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:37.760 the world as miss Info. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.880 Miss info right. Yes, but she called herself Shorty. 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.080 She caught herself Shorty right because she was she was 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:51.280 an incredibly hip, uptown New York chick, you know, came 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:57.560 in and was just like just new shit, way ahead. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.000 I mean, but this was still very early in her evolution, 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.080 I think, and we assigned her the job. I'm really 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:05.320 glad it was her because you. 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.680 Know, was it risky for you to not see this through? 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.919 Like were you not were you not allowed to touch 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.399 your own reviews or would that been seen as a 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.480 conflict of interest, like, well you can't be the editor 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.240 a chief in HM. 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.600 No, that wasn't really I mean, like in this case, 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.240 I think the reasoning was that I had already written, 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.360 like I was obviously the main champion of it inside 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:30.240 the building. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.960 But you saw the feature story more important than his 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:33.679 album review. 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.560 In my mind, that was the that's more journalistic to me, 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:39.720 is like this feature story is where you tell the 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:41.320 whole story, you know, and like that's. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.280 Where no friends, I don't remember that story, but I 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:45.080 remember that album. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.320 I get it. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. I understand that 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.960 that's the case because listen, as I said earlier, what 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.600 most people did, just like yourself, is they looked and see, oh, 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:55.800 who's on the cover. Okay, it's so and so, and 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.240 then they'd flip right to the back and say what 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.280 rating did everything get? Like that was the normal way 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.800 people consume the source. Absolutely, I get it. 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.160 Why didn't you put the record reviews in the front 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:06.840 of the magazine? 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.800 Then you know what, Again, I think it was earlier, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.480 Like I said, I was following that Rolling Stones like structure, 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:14.240 and they had the reviews in the back. 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.360 So, by the way, I did read everything. But yes, 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.440 I did read the thing backwards, so. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.400 I know, I get it. I get it. It's all good. 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.359 So yeah, we should did the review. But then again 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.600 we had now this is where we had the big meeting, 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.080 and I was pounding this is one case where I 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:36.560 use my authority to force the issue. And I was like, Reggie, 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.920 it's a five man, what do he five? I think 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.359 he wanted either a four or maybe a four point five. 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.000 The others in the room, everyone agreed with I mean, 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.920 the most majority of people agreed with me. There was 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.800 a few maybe I don't remember exactly who didn't. I 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.080 know Reggie was the main voice of the opposition in 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.280 this case. He lost the debate and he got a five, 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.600 and I think he would admit that we were correct 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.080 about giving it a five. I mean, obviously it's pretty 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.960 much the iconic hip hop album, or among the iconic, 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.639 legendary all time classic hip hop albums. I think everyone 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:12.239 agrees with that. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.720 For me crafting albums, of course, it was always does 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.400 someone see the vision inside my head the same way 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.479 that I see it? You know, when they review it? 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:33.480 And so the obsessive amount of headaches I gave my 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:38.720 publicist Amy Marsh just daily about like, Okay, when do 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:40.080 we give this to the source? When do we give 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:41.359 this to the source? When do we get this to 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.960 the source? You know, we're not going to get to 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.080 that part of the story yet of what happened that 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:51.560 day in October of ninety four. However, you know, it 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.399 was to the point where I saw it as me 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.720 getting up at five in the morning to get on 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.240 a train to and the thing was Amy is like, 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.280 you cannot go to the source of me, like that's 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.359 that's you know, there were still rules of like you know, 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.600 not crossing the line as an artist and that sort 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:17.439 of thing, and literally me going to the source to 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.119 get the issue because you guys would not reveal to 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.960 her what the rating was. She did tell me like, yes, 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.879 you guys got the leave review. But for me to 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.520 get up in another state at five in the morning, 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.000 to get on a train to go to New York, 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.600 to go outside that building and for her to hand 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.160 me that issue and for me to look and read 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:42.600 the review first before I see the mics and I'm 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.520 going through each bike like okay one, Mic two, Mike three, 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:51.639 Mike four, Mike, okay four, Mic, I'll take four. It 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.520 was literally of that obsessive level, like at what point 0:20:55.600 --> 0:21:00.760 did you realize that the artists are obsessed with that? 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.359 Like I'm certain was not even door like what the 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:05.640 source give me or. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.439 Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's we knew, like 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.960 there was a sense that the ratings were important because 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.159 we you know, you could you could hear it in 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:19.760 the in the feedback. We got that everybody. We knew 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:21.320 that the ratings were one of the main things that 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.600 people looked at, but we spent most of our time 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.480 on the rest of the magazine, you know what I mean, 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.680 Like we were filling the magazine with features and photo shoots, 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.000 and then we got into fashion and electronics and movies 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.080 and TV and film and you know, and all that stuff. 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.159 So so in other words, there was the answer to 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.280 your question is we always knew that people were watching 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.560 and that their artists cared, but we didn't get a 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.160 lot of feedback, you know, like we from the artists. 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.159 It wasn't commonplace for people. I mean they might have 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.560 been angry or they might have been happy, and we 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:55.560 didn't hear it usually. I mean we you know, of 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.480 course we would talk to the label people, and I 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.960 guess maybe you would hear second hand all the you know, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.199 Questlove was very happy with a review or whatever, you 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:04.560 know what I mean, Like I might have Warne something 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.360 like that, but like it wasn't it wasn't. There wasn't 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.200 a lot of drip artists interaction. I mean, there was interaction, 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:14.200 but just not feedback necessarily. 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.439 As a fan. Only have one question ahead, and that 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:24.760 is I wish you guys would have reconsidered all of 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:25.760 your Gang Star. 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:32.200 Reviews again, listen three and a half. 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.159 I mean eventually long after you left. Of course, you 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.720 know they evaluated that. Yeah, yeah, there was revalve based 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.399 and moment of truth got it's just do with the 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:43.840 four and a half review. But that's long after you 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:46.359 guys had left the building. But this one thing I 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:50.840 wanted to ask also, is there's a point where you 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.639 know the way that the stories are presented, you know, 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:58.600 more importantly, like would you consider the hell Raiser Tupac issue, 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.800 like if any thing? I feel as though the hell 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:08.600 Raiser issue really built whom we know as Tupac. Like 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:12.040 before that issue, you might have had a clue of 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.879 who Tupac was if you watch MTV news or you know, 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.359 was that after Juice or nah, this is hell Raiser 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:27.560 is like possibly right before he gets shot in the Yeah, 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:31.600 this is like early ninety four, but it was such No, 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.600 that's after Juice Citiary. Oh it's way after Juice. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.479 Yeah, yeah, after Juice. Okay, Bishop came to life, so 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:40.840 right exactly. Okay, So let's talk about Tupac because I 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:43.160 was going to talk about Gangstar, but Tupac. I got 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:48.280 some interesting perspectives. So, I mean I didn't really love 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:50.720 Tupac as a rapper for a long time. When he 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.640 came out, you know, I clown around when I rolled 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:58.320 around with the Underground like, it wasn't necessarily earth shattering. 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:00.600 It was just we were comparing every one to rock 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:05.520 him basically and KRSS I get. 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:10.080 K the Mount Rushmore was was KRS rock him and 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:12.280 Chuck d And then you could argue for the fourth 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.840 one being Big Daddy Kane she wrapped, you know, or 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:19.320 a number of others to ll you know, there's other potentials. 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:22.639 But anyway, so when Tupac came out with that, I 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:24.840 didn't like it. I didn't like him. I didn't like 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.320 his early albums. I thought that it was okay, but 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:32.600 it just didn't really move me. And then I got 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:39.000 a visit from Hollywood producers who came into the Source, 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:41.959 which is rare. We were still basically broke. I mean, 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.640 we didn't make any money for most of this time anyway, 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.000 and we were and having someone from Hollywood you feel like, oh, 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:49.120 someone important is here. 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:52.920 Wait, Tomson, you're not making money, like in terms of 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.840 like what we see like the billboard charts or whatever. 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:58.119 How do you know, like what you guys are selling 0:24:58.240 --> 0:24:59.040 in terms of. 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:01.680 Oh, like magazines, comedy send we we were doing well, 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.720 like with the magazine, was was doing very well on 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:08.199 the newsstands. I mean it was we we eventually it 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:10.040 got to the point where we were selling hundreds of 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:15.439 thousands of magazines every month. But throughout most of my 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:19.400 time there, there wasn't a huge profit. I mean we 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:23.600 were making a small, modest salary. You know. The business 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:27.520 was was profitable, but it wasn't like making a killing. Granted, 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:31.920 this is before anyone knew anything about startups the internet, 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:35.639 you know, VC funding. We had none of that. Although 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:37.520 I although if you want me to, I can tell 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:40.320 the story when Quincy Jones tried to buy the Source people. 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:43.440 People may or may not know that before Vibe yes, 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:48.119 vibe Okay. So in that case, what happened was we 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:53.000 got contacted by Russell Simmons, who was friends with Quincy. 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.520 He told us that Quincy Jones is interested in talking 0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:00.520 to us along with Time Warner, and Quinn was working 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:03.320 on a deal with Time Warner. So the four core 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:07.000 founders of the Source, myself, Dave Mays, James Bernard, and 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:09.160 Ed Young get on a plane. We go to La 0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:12.680 We go to Quincy Jones's house in Beverly Hills. Were 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:17.280 sitting there with that beautiful mansion. Starstruck, you know, right away, 0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:20.800 like holy shit, we're in Quincy Jones's house. We walk 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:24.920 into the room. There is a room of suits. There's 0:26:24.960 --> 0:26:29.359 about six seven guys, white guys in suits. There's a 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:33.000 woman named Jane Pratt who at that point was an 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:36.879 editor working for Time Life, and there was Quincy Jones 0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:39.080 and Russell Simmons. So there was like ten people in 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:42.000 the room. We walk in, four of us. We sit 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:44.840 and talk. They're interested in the source. I remember it 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:49.080 was very early, it was ninety one. So we walk in. 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:52.560 We have a whole meeting where we talk about They 0:26:52.640 --> 0:26:56.600 start ripping apart, not in a mean spirited way, but 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:59.160 they're they're kind of like, you know, you guys could 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:01.840 do this better. The artwork isn't that great, the photos 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:03.960 aren't that great, you know, but we love what you're doing. 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:06.399 You guys are doing it great, but we feel like 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:08.679 we can help you do it better. And and we 0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:10.760 were open to it. We didn't we were so naive, 0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:12.600 we didn't know shit. But we were just in there 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.520 having the meeting and thinking maybe we'll all get rich. 0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:19.680 Who knows what's going to happen, right, And so we 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:25.520 we have the whole meeting and we end up getting 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:28.880 a very low ball offer from them. It was like insulting. 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:32.840 It was like ridiculously bad. I forget the number, but 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.119 it was like something like fifty thousand dollars for the 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.760 whole magazine, and it was like digulous. Yeah, it was 0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:41.560 like it was like pathetic, and they wanted us to 0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:44.840 come work for them. And I remember in the in 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.480 the letter where they sent us the offer, they spelled 0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:50.120 like several of our name. My name always gets spelled wrong, 0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:52.440 so I was used to it, but they spelled like 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:55.960 multiple people's names wrong, and it was just very disrespectful 0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:59.240 the whole the whole thing that once we got the letter, 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:02.800 we felt very respected. So we just we didn't respond 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:04.880 and we just decided like, we're not going to do it. 0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:08.320 And then they ended up starting Vibe like a few 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:10.720 months later. And then there was a brief period of 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.000 time when the editor of Vibe was a guy named 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:16.719 Jonathan Van Meter and I'm Jonathan Scheckter, and so there 0:28:16.760 --> 0:28:20.720 was two Jonathan's running these two rap magazines. So anyway, 0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:23.200 that's the story. So that was it. So they wanted 0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:24.720 to buy the source. They ended up not doing it. 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.520 But long story short, what ended up happening. We were 0:28:27.600 --> 0:28:29.480 very concerned. We knew that there was going to be 0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:33.439 this other magazine. Vibe comes out. It is beautiful. It 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.920 has Treacher on the cover looking all you know, incredible, 0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:40.200 and the photos and it was all like very fashion 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:44.480 forward and it was like beautifully designed with amazing photography 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:48.440 and all that stuff, and we were concerned. But it 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:50.840 ended up being the best thing that ever happened to us. 0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:58.320 Why because suddenly all these legit advertisers are interested in 0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:02.440 the category, because Time Warner had like Pepsi and Ford 0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:05.920 and Sony and like i mean Sony Electronics and like 0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:09.680 things like that. So we were like getting by on 0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:13.520 just just industry ads basically. But now for the first 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:18.200 time we had this new market of huge companies that 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:20.840 are they're interested in rap music, and you know, it 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:23.160 didn't take long for them to see that we were 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.840 actually the leaders in the in the space, even though 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:29.760 Vibe you know, had a bigger saw, right, yeah, you know, 0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:32.680 but we were we were the actual like on the street, 0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:36.760 you know, newstand Leaders. So it helped us. It ended 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:38.360 up helping us. It took a long time for that 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.600 arc to all kind of play out, but in the 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:42.640 end it was actually a positive for the source that 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:43.600 they started vibe. 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:45.360 Okay, So back to you Tupac thing. 0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:48.240 Okay, So back to Tupac. So the guys come to 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:51.560 my office and they say, so, we're casting for this 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:54.760 movie and we're looking at artists and we're looking to you. 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.239 We want to ask you, like, who is you know, 0:29:57.480 --> 0:29:59.080 we want to get a sense of like who's who 0:29:59.120 --> 0:30:02.120 in this rap world. So so they started talking about rappers. 0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:04.800 I don't remember everyone they said, but they said Tupac 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:07.480 and I said, oh, you mean that guy from the 0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:10.920 Digital Underground. I was like, eh, he's okay, He's not 0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:13.000 that great. I mean, no one really knows who that is, 0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:16.200 you know. And they were like, oh okay, and like 0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:18.640 they we had the meeting. And then it shows how 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:21.160 much I know because they casted him. It was Juice. 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:25.200 They were making Juice Simmon Juice. Obviously he you know, 0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:26.719 he knocked it out of the park. It was like 0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:30.800 an incredible movie, incredible performance, and it really made him, 0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:34.680 you know, a star, and I remember I was watching 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.680 that movie screening with Russell Simmons, was in the awe. 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:39.760 It was in a private screening and Russell happened to 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:43.160 be there, and I remember Russell saying, if they throw 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:45.360 this motherfucker off the roof, this movie is going to 0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:47.440 be a hit. I don't remember. Remember there's a scene 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:50.600 where they throw someone off the roof. Yeah, it was 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:53.840 right exactly. They say, if they throw him off the roof, 0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:55.240 this this movie is going to be a hit. And 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.520 they threw him off the roof. Russell goes insane, He's right, 0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:01.160 the movie's a hit. A little bit later, I go 0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:04.320 to the first how Can I Be Down event in Miami, 0:31:05.280 --> 0:31:10.720 which was a very homemade event. It was like at 0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:11.520 somebody's house. 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:13.040 What were those events like? 0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:16.239 It was kind of like what you'd think it was. 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:18.280 It was nice. I mean, look, it was a nice house, 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:21.040 but it was very like bootleg. It was like there 0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:23.800 was it was like a lot, you know that particular one. 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:27.880 I remember that Tupac was there, Doctor Dre and ed 0:31:27.920 --> 0:31:30.480 Lower from your own TV raps were filming an episode there. 0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:36.440 Puffy was there, a bunch of other artists, and I 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:39.360 was there with a photographer we interviewed a bunch of people. 0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:42.280 But I remember seeing Tupac and now I started paying 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:44.720 attention to him because now he's his his star is 0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:48.640 starting to rise. And he always had like a joint 0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:51.160 or a cigarette in his hands. He was drinking, but 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:54.520 all the girls were all over him, and like he 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:56.840 he was like a charisma out the you know, off 0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:01.360 over the star the star. Right. So I still don't 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:04.560 really love his rapping, and I'm still like kind of 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.120 the jury is still out. I didn't really like his records. 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:09.240 I just didn't really think that like Brenda's Got a 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.160 Baby was kind of boring. I just didn't really love it. 0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:17.480 And so then a little bit later, I remember I 0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:20.760 went to a party in Brooklyn. It was Lord Jamar's 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:24.120 birthday party that I was invited to. I remember I 0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:26.800 walk into this party in Brooklyn. It was an outdoor 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:30.760 courtyard and there was a lot of people there. There's 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:32.720 a lot of beautiful girls there. It was like a 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:36.240 nice party. I walk in and I'm having a good 0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:38.600 time and I've see like a lot of artists around 0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:41.920 and stuff. And then I noticed this kid in the 0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:44.840 corner and I see Tupac is there. I see Tupac 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.840 is in this party, and this is right when he's 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:49.960 hanging out with Biggie. Biggie wasn't there, but he was. 0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:52.080 It was during the time when he was, like, you know, 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:54.200 starting to hang out with Biggie, and that that period 0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:59.520 of time he's in Brooklyn. So he Tupac is there 0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:01.320 and I look in the corner of my eye and 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:06.400 I see this guy dressed exactly like Tupac, Like literally 0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:09.360 he has the bandana wrapped around a bald head, he 0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:13.880 has his shirt open, he looks exactly he's modeled after 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:17.400 Tupac and Juice like image, Like he has the exact 0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:21.520 look of Tupac and he's what he's eyeing him. I'm like, 0:33:21.520 --> 0:33:24.360 that's weird, Like, whoa, what's I kind of see it 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:27.240 happen from Afar and this guy has like a fire 0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:31.200 in his eyes, like he's angry, and he walks across 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:35.520 the space up to Tupac and basically challenges him to 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:39.800 a battle in this party. A guy that looks exactly 0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:44.360 like Tupac challenges Tupac to a rhyme battle inside this party. 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:48.920 And this is a true story. And so then people 0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:51.080 start gathering around, like you could tell there's about to 0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:55.920 be something happening, right, And so the guy starts rapping 0:33:56.920 --> 0:34:01.680 and he's, uh, he's not good. He's not great. He's okay, 0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:05.360 but he's not really good. And I'm like it's pretty 0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:08.040 clear pretty early on that he's not really a good rapper, 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.200 but he's trying. He's like, yo, man, I'm gonna fuck 0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:12.480 you up. I'll do this, I'll do that, and uh, 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:15.800 everyone's kind of like I'm looking around, going like, where's 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:18.719 like somebody to jump in, Like where's like one of 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:21.960 the brand Nubian guys or you know, where's Buckshot Shorty, 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:24.239 Like we need somebody here to like represent New York 0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:26.640 because I knew Pak was more of like a California 0:34:26.640 --> 0:34:29.399 even though he's from New York, he's a California guy. 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:34.480 So the guy finishes, and then Pok steps up and 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:40.919 destroys him, just gives this like virtuoso performance where he's 0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:43.200 like breaking down. He's like, you even look like me. 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:45.279 You got your band danna like me, you got this 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:47.160 like me? And then he looks over and he goes, 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:49.479 I'm gonna even murder you in front of my dude 0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:52.040 from the source, and he like points at me and 0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:55.120 it's like this whole moment and I was like, that 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:57.440 was my That was the moment when I realized that 0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:00.000 he really actually could rap and that he was like 0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:02.880 actually like a really good MC. You know, I didn't, 0:35:03.120 --> 0:35:06.120 I didn't know. It wasn't until that live you know, 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:09.200 like impromptu thing that I realized that he's a great rapper. 0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:11.520 And then I kind of changed my take on him. 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.200 It took that experience for me to really get it, 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:16.799 you know, and then of course that years later, he 0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:19.000 you know, became a huge, even bigger star. 0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:25.520 At this moment, are you guys even remotely concerned about like, 0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:27.600 you know, like there was an era of Deaf Jam 0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:31.239 where it was just like ye old general store and 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:34.040 then suddenly you go to Deaf Jam and then now 0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:37.760 you got security clearance and all that stuff. And yeah, 0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:42.120 like at any point did the source come to that or. 0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:46.080 You know, we had our share of threats and stuff 0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:49.040 like that. I mean, it wasn't it never thankfully spilled 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:54.360 over into anything major, you know, there was to your point, 0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:56.360 I get it. That's I think that was one of 0:35:56.440 --> 0:36:00.680 Chimo DU's great skills because she did that. That snoop one, 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:02.920 you know what you're referring to with that snoop is 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:06.480 that she had this ability to walk into any hood 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.239 in the entire world and people would like him. He 0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:13.200 was a very warm, friendly dude. And you know, I 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:16.240 believe he had like Nigerian roots or he was African, 0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:19.960 but he had like a very friendly demeanor. There was 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:22.319 something about him. You smiled all the time. He was 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:28.759 very calm and positive energy. And so that was one 0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:31.239 of our secrets, I guess, was that we could walk 0:36:31.280 --> 0:36:35.920 into a situation where other journalists maybe wouldn't want to. 0:36:36.080 --> 0:36:39.120 And this I did this myself a few times. But 0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:42.680 any anyone, any any of the many writers that worked 0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:45.200 for the Source who got sent on an assignment to 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:48.520 go to Houston or to go to La You know, 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.920 I once went on a on a on a graffiti 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:55.960 run with KRS Fat Show and the Bronx Tat crew 0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:59.200 and I went to like the straight you know, like 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:01.600 the graffiti like you know, four in the morning, like 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:04.239 climb and breaking into the into the train yard all 0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:06.759 that shit. Like we all have those moments when we 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:12.400 basically penetrated what a normal like journalist would do. And 0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:15.239 I think, you know, thank God, like we never had 0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:19.160 any major problems like there was always you know, I 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.439 think everyone had an interest in making sure things went well, 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:25.200 Like there was the artists at the center of whatever 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.800 rething we were doing would do everything in their power 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:31.520 to make sure that the situation was was was was good. 0:37:31.600 --> 0:37:34.719 You know, everyone wants like a good story, everyone wants 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:37.520 the pictures to look good, everyone wants good reviews, you know, 0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:40.600 So there was we kind of like coasted through on that. 0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:44.040 And again it was like, you know, it was with 0:37:44.160 --> 0:37:46.080 guys like Chi, I think, who were kind of like 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:48.560 on the front lines of a lot of these going 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:51.400 to like certain hoods, and you know he Chi photographed, 0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:57.240 you know, everyone in every hood and never had a problem. 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:03.840 Whose idea was it to do the crack issue? 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:06.960 Great, great question that was. I think Reggie and James 0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:12.799 Bernard were the primary drivers behind that one. Okay, I 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:15.520 know you know this, but you know for Trivia Buff's 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:19.600 you know Big East ten Crack Commandments is actually from 0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:23.480 a source article and that I did not know that. 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:25.719 You didn't know that, Okay, didn't. 0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:30.759 The actual was that the cover story or was I'm 0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:33.080 trying my hardest to remember was the counter story? Was 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:34.160 it a main feature? 0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:36.200 I think it was just a big feature. I don't 0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:37.680 think we put crack on the cover. I think we 0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:40.799 still put a rapper on the cover. But I think 0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:44.160 it was the two times that we did very political 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:47.799 things that I remember was obviously the LA riots. That 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:53.200 was a huge, huge, monumental source moment because we covered 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:56.440 the LA Riots very extensively from the point of view 0:38:56.480 --> 0:39:04.440 of the rioters really. And then the Crack issue was another. 0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:09.920 You know, we devoted a lot of pages to the 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:13.319 crack epidemic, but not from a oh my god, what's 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:16.480 going on, but more so from like what's really going on? 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:21.960 You know. And and one of the articles was the 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.680 ten Crack Commandments. That was literally one of it was 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:27.120 like a sidebar. It was like it wasn't the main feature. 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:31.120 The ten Crack Commandments were. What was in that Crack issue? Yes, 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:32.880 oh my god. 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:36.080 Yes, if you go back and biggie, it's almost word 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:38.279 for word. I mean it's not literally word for word, 0:39:38.280 --> 0:39:41.680 but it's like eighty percent word for word. It's like 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:43.160 you got that from the source. 0:39:43.960 --> 0:39:46.840 Yeah, I did not know that. I do remember that 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:50.880 issue thought like whoa, Like they're going to places that 0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:53.960 no periodical as dared go. 0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:57.040 Should we touch on Biggie real quick, because if anything, 0:39:57.200 --> 0:39:59.680 that's the biggest artist that ever came out of the Source. 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:03.960 Let's be real, you know, like as far as being 0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:06.799 christened an artist because of something that happened in the 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:10.600 Source magazine, we had a column called Unsigned Hype. Everybody knows, 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.000 you know. The idea was that we would review cassettes 0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:16.279 from regular people, regular artists who are trying to make it, 0:40:16.520 --> 0:40:19.759 and every month we would pick one cassette. Mattie C, 0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:22.920 who later on, you know, became an R for Loud 0:40:22.920 --> 0:40:25.960 and became a legendary ear, you know, was kind of 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:30.120 the main point person, and so matt would get We 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:33.800 literally had like a plastic trash bag filled with cassettes. 0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:36.759 I mean we would get hundreds of cassettes a month. 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.640 I mean maybe two hundred every month. I mean it 0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:44.160 was endless, like every so Mattie's job was one of 0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:47.120 Mattie C's job was to go through all these cassettes. 0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:49.440 Now what really ended up happening because maybe the first 0:40:49.680 --> 0:40:52.440 month he listened to a bunch of them. But as 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:55.200 you as we all know, when it comes to demos, 0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:57.960 you know, unfortunately most of them are not good. So 0:40:59.040 --> 0:41:01.040 you kind of get burned out very quick. And then 0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:03.920 he started putting in the I remember he added to 0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:06.880 the text of the description puts your best cut first. 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:09.640 I remember you put that in there, smart because he 0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:11.520 didn't want to have to like sit through like you know, 0:41:11.640 --> 0:41:14.680 search for the search for it. So one day, you know, 0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:18.279 after doing this, and the truth was that that bag 0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:20.440 got bigger and bigger, and we would get like literally 0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:22.440 like five a day, so it would be like one 0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:25.160 hundred and fifty a month, okay, and it would be 0:41:25.280 --> 0:41:28.120 like a bag of cassettes, and it was it was, 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:30.000 you know, no one wants to really go through that, 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:32.839 but slowly, you know, we would once in a while, 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:34.959 Oh that one looks Look, that's a that's a weird 0:41:35.000 --> 0:41:37.000 pink cassette. Let me listen to that one. We would 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.160 just randomly to like pick him out. And then one 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:42.879 day he comes into my office and he's like, yo, 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:45.480 we got one, we got one. Listen to this, and 0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:51.400 he sits down, he gets play and I hear the 0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:53.800 original for eight and a half stepping, which is, uh, 0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:58.000 who was a yeah, blind emotions. I hear the I 0:41:58.040 --> 0:42:03.279 hear the emotions blind Alley and what's up? Source my 0:42:03.400 --> 0:42:06.080 name is Biggie Smalls. I want to say thank you 0:42:06.120 --> 0:42:08.960 for giving me this opportunity. Thank you so much. I 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:10.719 really respect y'all and I want to thank you. He 0:42:11.160 --> 0:42:13.440 gave us like a nice intro where he like thanked 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:17.160 us for the opportunity to wrap for us, and then 0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:21.440 the bee kicks in and he starts rapping, and it's amazing. 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:24.400 It's phenomenal. It's basically like Biggie, you know. It's like 0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:27.799 it's all the personality that we all came to know 0:42:27.880 --> 0:42:32.200 and love. So Maddie had gotten this tape not from 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:36.920 the mail but from mister C. Mister C had gotten 0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:41.359 the tape from fifty Grand, who is Biggie's guy, who 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:43.280 gave the tape to mister C. We played the tape 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:46.080 for Maddie, Maddi gives its shows at us. We're like, oh, 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:49.239 this is incredible. So we go and we decide he's 0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:51.640 going to be the unsigned hype. We send Chimo du 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:55.440 to his house. He takes those first pictures of Biggie 0:42:55.760 --> 0:42:57.680 where he's like, you know, like on the street. I 0:42:57.680 --> 0:43:00.680 think he's outside, and we run it and it comes 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:06.520 out and then this rarely happened, but we got a 0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:10.360 call from Puffy. Mattie got a call from Puffy. This 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:13.400 almost never happened. He's like, yo, I'm interested in that. 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:17.160 This was happening right at the time obviously Joe to 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:21.200 see Andre Herel and like the whole breakup was happening. 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:23.000 It was right at that time when like he was 0:43:23.080 --> 0:43:25.560 leaving Andre Herrel. So it was right when bad Boy 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:30.160 was starting. It was just timing. And so he's like, yo, 0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:32.680 I'm interested in this guy. And so Maddie goes and 0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:33.360 takes the meeting. 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:37.200 Wait, y'all introduce Yeah. 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:39.280 Mattie c introduced Puffy to Biggie. 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:41.319 Yes that I did not know. 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:46.840 Yeah, yeah, and to take the meeting, and Maddie go, 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:50.560 I didn't go. Maddie went to the meeting, and Puffy 0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:53.440 is like, a so yeah, like tell me, tell me 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:55.000 what let me hear the tape. He plays the tape. 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:56.840 He's like, yo, it is incredible, and he's like, let 0:43:56.880 --> 0:43:59.319 me what does he look like? And Maddie's like trying 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:02.160 to describe what Biggie looks like, you know, He's like, well, 0:44:02.200 --> 0:44:06.000 he's kind of a big dude, you know. So Biggie 0:44:06.160 --> 0:44:10.560 and Puffy meat and very shortly after that we get 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:15.640 party and bullshit party and bullshit was like I don't know, 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:18.359 like a month or two, like not long after that, 0:44:18.600 --> 0:44:22.080 like that record got made and obviously we're like going 0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:27.040 insane loving it. And then you know, long story short. 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:29.719 I got to meet Biggie a couple of times. He 0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:33.560 came to the office. He was I remember one particular 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:36.920 time we went to the staircase to smoke weed. He 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:43.440 we smoke a blunt about six people. Biggie's there and he's, uh, 0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:47.279 he's he's at this point, he is still unsure and 0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:50.000 this is depicted in all of the documentaries and the 0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:52.399 movies that have been made. When remember he still wanted 0:44:52.400 --> 0:44:53.960 to be a drug dealer. He didn't really want to 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:58.120 be a rap star. So right when that moment was happening, 0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:01.239 that was like real, real time I saw and he 0:45:01.280 --> 0:45:03.239 didn't say drug dealer, but he's sitting there going, man, 0:45:03.280 --> 0:45:04.840 I got shit going on. I don't know if I 0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:08.000 have time for this shit. Yeah, He's like, I don't 0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:09.960 have time for this ship. Man, I'm doing well, Like 0:45:10.000 --> 0:45:11.880 I don't really have time for this shit, and like 0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:15.239 the rest of us are trying to encourage him, like yo, man, 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:17.600 like this is a real opportunity, like you should really 0:45:17.880 --> 0:45:20.640 do this party and bullshit was already out, so I didn't. 0:45:21.239 --> 0:45:23.279 I thought it was like a it was already a 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:25.000 done deal, like he was going to be huge, but 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:26.080 he didn't really see it that. 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:28.040 Way yet, right. And then. 0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:32.160 Not long after I think I've told you this story before, 0:45:32.200 --> 0:45:35.120 I remember sitting on the step near watching the Square 0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:39.040 park and that's when I heard the demo from the 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:43.360 night before of Juicy and Maddie hits play and I 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.640 hear you know, im too may come out of the speakers, 0:45:47.320 --> 0:45:51.080 and then I hear Biggie you know, doing these rhymes 0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:53.400 and then he says smiles every time my face is 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:56.120 open the source, and I'm like over the moon, like 0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:59.120 this is amazing, Right, And that was it. And then 0:45:59.200 --> 0:46:02.520 you know, then I got a piece of mateo and 0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:05.640 all that other stuff, and a star is born. Star 0:46:05.760 --> 0:46:06.120 is born. 0:46:07.080 --> 0:46:09.880 Okay, I'm gonna ask you the question, man, go ahead. 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:13.799 So part two of that story I told of me 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:17.120 leaving Philly get on a train at six in the 0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:21.560 morning just to just to come to the West Village, 0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:24.520 just so I can be the first person to read 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:30.520 what my rating was, you know, the reasonable all. 0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:32.080 The time, you have to say, this is very important. 0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:33.520 Don't know how much you listen to the show. We 0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:36.120 talk about the roots and the microphones all the time. 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:37.280 This big moment. 0:46:37.120 --> 0:46:38.560 I've heard a little bit. Yeah, I've heard a little 0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:39.000 bit of it. 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:42.799 And the thing was, you know, I was elated. I 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:44.920 was nervous because you know, we were so left the 0:46:44.920 --> 0:46:49.920 center and taking a risk on this new, unchartered live 0:46:50.000 --> 0:46:54.239 instrumentation territory thing. But yeah, yeah we got we got 0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:58.160 the leave review, we got four mics. I'm happy. I 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:01.279 want to go up and say, thinking I would have 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:05.319 been the second person to thank you guys for my 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:09.240 four mikes, but I can't do that right now because 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:12.759 I don't know that all hell is breaking. 0:47:12.480 --> 0:47:16.600 Loose at the exact same moment. There's a crisis happening 0:47:16.680 --> 0:47:17.080 at the side. 0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:22.520 Literally. So the story that I got was that your partner, 0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:28.200 Dave Mays took it upon himself to insert a three 0:47:29.000 --> 0:47:32.800 and a half page feature on one of his acts 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:38.920 from Boston without the knowledge of you guys knowing it. Basically, 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.360 as I'm discovering my four mics in the magazine, you 0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:49.359 guys are also subsequently discovering, Hey, there's an article here 0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:54.920 about Almighty RSO. And this is when I first heard 0:47:54.960 --> 0:47:58.400 the term called conflict of interest. You know, first I 0:47:58.440 --> 0:48:00.680 was like, well, what's that people will promote all the 0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:05.800 time and nepotism they're and you know, Amy and Ursula 0:48:05.840 --> 0:48:08.360 are trying to explain to me, the newbie of the industry, 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:12.400 like there's certain rules that you follow, and there's conflict 0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:16.000 of interest, and there's you know, talking to your co 0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:21.640 workers and that sort of thing. And of course the 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:26.440 way that this shit spread like wildfire, because the thing 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:32.080 is like Amy is very connected to every publicist, every 0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:35.040 data you know, and there's no such thing as a 0:48:35.080 --> 0:48:39.640 phone thread or you know, social media whatever. So it's 0:48:39.719 --> 0:48:42.359 like the second we get back, it was like they 0:48:42.360 --> 0:48:47.040 were all on like a war council, Like, yo, the 0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:51.360 source is over. As they're all walking away. What happened 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:53.880 that morning in October of ninety four? How did you 0:48:54.040 --> 0:48:58.480 find out that you guys have been compromised by one 0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:02.799 of your own and the subsequent aftermath of that. I 0:49:02.920 --> 0:49:06.600 never knew what happened on the inside of those walls 0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:10.839 that morning, And of course I get the announcement that night. 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:14.359 The source as I knew it is no more. I mean, 0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:15.479 and so we. 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:17.239 Saw each other around that time. If you remember, I 0:49:17.239 --> 0:49:19.040 went to the studio and I saw I met with you. 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:22.840 But anyway to get to answer your question, yes, just unrelated. 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:24.840 I happened to see you shortly after that happened. But 0:49:26.920 --> 0:49:29.400 you're right, the way you framed it is exactly correct. 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:34.279 We every month would have a an editorial sort of 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.000 a layout, not just editorial, but the whole sort of 0:49:37.080 --> 0:49:39.840 map of the whole magazine. Dave and I would it 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:41.920 would primarily just him and I would sit in the 0:49:42.000 --> 0:49:45.560 room and we'd have, Okay, this month's issue, how many 0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:48.400 how many ads did he get? How much editorial do 0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:50.400 we have? And like where are these things come together? 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:53.160 There would be a physical sheet of paper, but that 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:54.720 we would map out the whole issue. 0:49:54.880 --> 0:49:58.120 You have to tetris the format of Okay, I get it. 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:00.360 The whole magazine right, So it's like we have, Okay, 0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:04.279 here's the cover feature, here's the secondary feature, here's the 0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:07.600 record reviews, here's the fashion shoot this month, here's this whatever. 0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:13.040 So those pages were marked as ads, so I thought 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:15.239 they were ads. I didn't even think twice about it. 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:17.879 We often had ads that were Sometimes people would buy 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:20.400 like a two page spread ad that was like a 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:22.719 normal thing. So I just assumed that that's what it was. 0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:25.799 So we finished the issue. As you said, I had 0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:29.719 red Man on the cover, and I get a call, 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:32.800 I think from James Bernard, who's, you know, my partner 0:50:32.880 --> 0:50:35.360 on the editorial side and also a co owner of 0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:39.440 the magazine. Yo, something really fucked up happened. 0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:39.640 Man. 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:41.120 You got to come in right now. You got to 0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:43.279 see this. I'm like, what, just come here, come here 0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:48.120 and see. So I come in and it's the pages 0:50:48.160 --> 0:50:51.040 that we thought were ads were actually a whole article 0:50:51.200 --> 0:50:56.000 about this group that Dave had been working with separate 0:50:56.040 --> 0:50:59.840 from the magazine. He was managing them basically, but you know, 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:01.680 I don't know if that was his official title, but 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:04.000 that was basically what he was doing. He was getting 0:51:04.040 --> 0:51:08.040 them deals, he was cultivating them and trying to make 0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:13.759 them into stars, and they wanted to jump ahead and 0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:17.920 get in this. You know, we were approaching it the 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:21.560 same way we approached every artist in that an unfold. 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:24.080 Let's you know, we got hundreds of artists every month, like, 0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:29.080 let's figure this out whatever. Instead, this thing happened, and 0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:33.719 it was a very big violation of our ethics. It 0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:37.040 was inside the magazine, our friendship. You know. I felt 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:41.359 very offended by that act because it was like, you know, 0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:44.360 taking away I was the editor in chief. I was 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:47.920 in charge of every article. Like I didn't write every article, 0:51:47.960 --> 0:51:50.080 but I made sure I knew about every article that 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:51.759 was going in. And this was the first time that 0:51:51.800 --> 0:51:54.720 I didn't, So it was very shocking. 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:59.759 Everyone has a code. I didn't. I understand that the 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:01.120 public out there. 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:03.040 Would they even even know the difference you're saying, wow. 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:05.239 I would have not known the difference that I know. 0:52:05.360 --> 0:52:07.080 I know, Okay, So here's what really happened. If you 0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:11.360 want to know the sequence of events. My inclination, to 0:52:11.440 --> 0:52:14.399 be quite honest with you, was the way I always am, 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:18.120 which is to handle this privately. I did not want 0:52:18.160 --> 0:52:22.759 to go public with this information. My instinct, even though 0:52:22.800 --> 0:52:26.000 it was really messed up and I was very angry, 0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:28.960 I would have handled it privately. But something happened that 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:33.240 prevented me from doing that. What happened was James Bernard 0:52:34.480 --> 0:52:39.759 sent out a letter addressed to Dave using something using 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:43.080 a fax machine. We used to have a fax newsletter 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:46.480 called The Weekly Word, and it was pre internet, and 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:48.520 what it was was we had the facts number of 0:52:48.600 --> 0:52:54.600 literally everyone in the rap industry, radio records exit, so 0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:56.680 we would send out we would send out this a 0:52:56.680 --> 0:53:00.920 weekly and Minya actually Minya Oh miss Info, her first 0:53:01.040 --> 0:53:03.040 job for us as far as a full time job 0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:05.520 was that newsletter. She would actually come in once a 0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:07.920 week and she would say, what are the biggest stories, 0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:09.920 and we talk and then she'd go and type up 0:53:10.400 --> 0:53:13.200 that one page sort of like summary. It was kind 0:53:13.200 --> 0:53:16.400 of like a news headlines thing, like this is what's happening, 0:53:16.440 --> 0:53:18.279 so that people on rap shows would be like, this 0:53:18.320 --> 0:53:20.480 is from the source. We found out that so and 0:53:20.520 --> 0:53:24.160 so is happening. So we had this platform that was 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:27.440 still very you know, kind of like a really industry 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:28.480 oriented thing, but. 0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:31.439 Right what initially was it. 0:53:31.360 --> 0:53:33.520 Was still along the lines of initial and we even 0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:35.640 had one point when we try to do industry magazine, 0:53:35.680 --> 0:53:38.840 separate from the source very quick, very briefly. But anyway, 0:53:39.080 --> 0:53:42.160 so we had this platform. So this crisis happens, Dave 0:53:42.239 --> 0:53:45.600 does this thing, I'm very angry, everyone's angry. At this point, 0:53:45.680 --> 0:53:48.120 we had a pretty big staff. Our editorial side was 0:53:48.160 --> 0:53:53.640 probably about ten or twelve people, and the business side 0:53:53.719 --> 0:53:55.880 was probably another ten or twelve people. We probably had 0:53:55.880 --> 0:54:00.440 twenty five people working there this time, and Jane James 0:54:00.520 --> 0:54:03.400 does something that I thought was a bad idea. I 0:54:03.440 --> 0:54:05.920 still think it was a bad idea. He goes and 0:54:05.960 --> 0:54:08.920 he writes this letter to Dave, and he puts it 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:12.600 through that weekly word fax machine, so that in one minute, 0:54:13.160 --> 0:54:17.680 the entire rap industry knows, Dave, how could you do this? Like, 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:19.920 you know, you put this article about these guys. We 0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:22.000 had nothing to do with it, We knew nothing about it. 0:54:22.360 --> 0:54:26.080 Da da da da, and all hell breaks loose. I mean, 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:29.200 it's like everyone in the industry was calling me. I 0:54:29.239 --> 0:54:32.719 got the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the 0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:38.239 Village Voice, like all these people, media reporters, you know, 0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:39.160 like what happened? 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:39.320 Like this? 0:54:39.840 --> 0:54:42.640 It's kind of like it's two things. It's a hip 0:54:42.640 --> 0:54:45.880 hop story, it's also a media story. It's a story 0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:50.239 about turmoil, about about media ethics as you as you 0:54:50.280 --> 0:54:53.440 alluded to, you know, it's it's about all of these things. 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:58.839 And now that James has unfortunately made it public, which 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:02.640 again and I would never have done that. I would 0:55:02.640 --> 0:55:06.240 have handled it privately because that was what my instinct 0:55:06.280 --> 0:55:08.799 was telling me. But now that can no longer be done. 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:12.520 Now everyone knows that this thing happened, So what's going 0:55:12.600 --> 0:55:16.759 to happen next. It's a very tough moment for me 0:55:17.080 --> 0:55:19.719 and for everyone around, you know, at those days, at 0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:23.400 that time, what really happened was all of the editorial 0:55:23.440 --> 0:55:28.120 staff had a meeting. I think I went to one 0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:29.840 of the meetings, but then I think there was another 0:55:29.840 --> 0:55:32.960 meeting without me because I was more like. 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:34.919 Did you guys have an HR at all? 0:55:35.640 --> 0:55:38.120 No? I mean we had, yeah, we did have somebody, 0:55:38.120 --> 0:55:40.960 but it was it wasn't really a real HR. It 0:55:41.000 --> 0:55:43.000 was you know, it was a very you know, we were. 0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:45.200 Like maze in the office as you guys are, Like 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:49.920 there was Caesar style like it was heaving like that. 0:55:50.000 --> 0:55:52.120 There was like a giant split and like half the 0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:54.279 company went one way and half the company went the 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:57.400 other way. And when it came down to it, I 0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:02.320 had to make a very difficult decision, which was given 0:56:02.360 --> 0:56:05.600 that now this information was out there. On top of it, 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:12.600 the entire editorial staff had voluntarily left their jobs. So 0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:15.800 now that means there was other people there. There was 0:56:15.800 --> 0:56:22.200 a guy named Rob Marriott, Carter, Harris Kieranameyo, Chris Calloway 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:25.080 was art director, Chimo dou Maddie c. There's a whole 0:56:25.120 --> 0:56:28.760 lot of people, Reggie, Dennis, all of them had said, 0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:30.440 you know what, we're not even going to work here 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:34.680 anymore because Dave needs to go. And I'm like, I 0:56:34.719 --> 0:56:38.359 hear you, but he's like he owns a big chunk 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:40.400 of this magazine. Dude, Like, I mean, you know, what 0:56:40.440 --> 0:56:42.880 are we going to do about it? And they were like, 0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:44.879 that's your problem, you figure that out, you know kind 0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:46.279 of thing. So I was really ico. 0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:48.759 So they put the pressure on you to well, you 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:51.239 don't have a staff or anything to vote him mount 0:56:51.320 --> 0:56:52.520 or anything, do you exactly. 0:56:52.520 --> 0:56:55.759 I was left in a very isolated position because the 0:56:55.840 --> 0:56:58.200 staff had already decided we're done, fuck this, we don't 0:56:58.239 --> 0:57:00.480 care about you know, We're not going to work in 0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:02.279 a place that does this. And I agreed with them. 0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:05.200 I understood their anger. I was angry too, But also 0:57:05.360 --> 0:57:08.560 I was a co owner, as was James and Ed Young. 0:57:09.080 --> 0:57:11.200 We were all co owners, so we I had two 0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:14.160 hats on. I had my editorial you know hat, which 0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:16.920 was and my friendship with him after all these years, 0:57:16.960 --> 0:57:19.880 like how could you do this? And I don't think 0:57:19.960 --> 0:57:23.320 Dave even realized, like how serious, like what he had done, Like, 0:57:23.360 --> 0:57:26.360 I don't think he even knew the effect. He definitely 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:30.800 did not anticipate the reaction. And I was left in 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:33.480 a very difficult position. And what do I do? So 0:57:33.600 --> 0:57:36.280 after thinking about it for quite a long time, a 0:57:36.320 --> 0:57:39.000 few weeks, you know, a couple of very stressful weeks, 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:42.760 I decided I want to get bought out. I'm done. 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:45.720 It was hard decision, but once I made it, I 0:57:45.800 --> 0:57:48.400 made it, and I was like, Okay, I'm not going 0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:50.080 to be able to go back to work and pretend 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:52.240 everything's okay. I'm going to have to If I were 0:57:52.280 --> 0:57:54.120 to go back to work, I'd have to hire a 0:57:54.120 --> 0:57:56.880 bunch of new people. I'd have to still work under 0:57:56.880 --> 0:58:02.280 this now, you know, potentially corrupted, you know, structure now 0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:05.120 and this and that. And I just made the decision 0:58:05.120 --> 0:58:07.120 I wanted to get bought out. It took a long 0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:09.600 time for that deal to get done. It took maybe 0:58:09.600 --> 0:58:13.680 a year for that whole process to unfold. I remember 0:58:13.720 --> 0:58:18.040 seeing you around the time that I made this decision, 0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:20.960 and you were in a studio somewhere. Do you remember 0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:21.400 this or you. 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:24.480 May probably in battery studios. I think you were. 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:28.480 It was battery yes, yes, correct, And I remember, I 0:58:28.520 --> 0:58:30.320 can't remember why I was sitting with you, but I 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:32.160 went up in the studio and you and I think 0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:35.720 your engineer were very curious, as was everybody, and I 0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:38.320 got it. I understood. You were like what happened? Like, dude, 0:58:38.360 --> 0:58:40.720 what happened? And I probably told some version of the 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:42.840 same story, you know, And. 0:58:43.040 --> 0:58:47.160 Yeah, the source was my illmatic you know what I mean, Like, yeah, 0:58:47.400 --> 0:58:47.840 it was it. 0:58:49.000 --> 0:58:51.840 Yeah, I mean, look, it's not the way that I 0:58:51.880 --> 0:58:54.360 would want it, would have wanted to leave the source. 0:58:54.960 --> 0:58:57.320 But if I'm being totally honest, you know, as I 0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.520 think back on those years, I had already begun to 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:03.240 feel a sense that I wanted to maybe move on. 0:59:03.480 --> 0:59:06.840 You know. It wasn't necessarily definitely not under that circumstance. 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:09.760 But there was a period of time about a year 0:59:09.800 --> 0:59:12.240 before that, when I did actually take like a two 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:15.840 month hiatus, and I went to Philly and tried to 0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:18.800 write other stuff. I was interested in writing screenplays and 0:59:18.840 --> 0:59:21.520 other things, so I went and pursued that for a while. 0:59:22.000 --> 0:59:24.640 Was there ever a thought that you guys would just 0:59:24.680 --> 0:59:27.520 collectively start another magazine? 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:31.880 That was a thought, you know. James and Reggie ended 0:59:31.960 --> 0:59:34.600 up starting XXL about like a few months after that, 0:59:35.360 --> 0:59:37.400 and then they lasted about a month and then they 0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:40.640 they didn't they they had a falling out with that publisher. 0:59:41.800 --> 0:59:45.480 And then I actually am the one that recommended Elliott 0:59:45.480 --> 0:59:48.960 Wilson for the job, because those the people from Harris 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:51.960 Publications who were also friends of acquaintances or friends of mine, 0:59:52.480 --> 0:59:54.160 were like, hey, man, do you want to come they 0:59:54.160 --> 0:59:57.280 I was offered the job to go run XXL, and 0:59:57.360 --> 0:59:59.280 I didn't want to do it, but I offered. I 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:02.640 proposed that Elliott Wilson would be the best candidate, and 1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:05.520 he ended up being a great, a great person to 1:00:05.560 --> 1:00:09.120 do it, obviously, But yeah, that was it, man. I 1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:12.400 decided to get bought out again. I wasn't, you know, 1:00:12.480 --> 1:00:16.360 I didn't anticipate that would happen, but you know, it 1:00:16.400 --> 1:00:18.880 was that. That's what happened, and I accepted that and 1:00:18.960 --> 1:00:24.040 we eventually reached the deal for a small seven figure 1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:26.360 sum and that was it. 1:00:31.520 --> 1:00:34.960 Were you part of the first? Never spoken about but 1:00:35.000 --> 1:00:38.120 the first source awards correct. 1:00:38.200 --> 1:00:40.200 I was part of the first, but not the second. 1:00:40.320 --> 1:00:42.560 So I was there for the first. 1:00:42.640 --> 1:00:44.760 First. The first was a little crazy too, Yeah, first 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:45.400 was insane. 1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:48.840 Also, people don't. Yes, people, the first was it was 1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:49.880 late ninety three. 1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:52.080 Were you there from that Tupac Tribe moment? 1:00:52.800 --> 1:00:54.840 Yes, I was there for that. I was that was 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:57.760 that I think it was where what theater was that 1:00:57.800 --> 1:00:58.040 in it? 1:00:58.520 --> 1:01:02.320 That Madison Square Garden right right, that's right. I went 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:05.680 there as a spectator. And yeah, I think I've told 1:01:05.680 --> 1:01:08.280 this story before, like there wasn't a Tupac Tribe thing. 1:01:08.760 --> 1:01:12.880 What I believe happened was that as tribe was coming 1:01:12.920 --> 1:01:16.760 up to accept their award for Midnight Marauders, right, someone 1:01:16.960 --> 1:01:23.160 accidentally queued up Tupac song. Yeah, and he did whatever. 1:01:23.320 --> 1:01:26.320 I don't give a fuck song whatever. But from the 1:01:26.360 --> 1:01:29.360 audience point of view, it looked and you know, this 1:01:29.440 --> 1:01:33.840 is like after the legend of the Karas one PM 1:01:33.920 --> 1:01:36.560 dawn situation or whatever, which I still don't I've heard 1:01:36.680 --> 1:01:39.360 variations of that story that it wasn't as you know, 1:01:39.480 --> 1:01:41.680 it's like they were both booked on the show. I 1:01:41.680 --> 1:01:46.640 don't know, but it seemed like Tupac was just like, yo, 1:01:46.760 --> 1:01:49.800 fuck that, and the music came on cue. It was 1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:53.920 like Bishop had come to life and then you know, 1:01:54.040 --> 1:01:58.680 the Zoo Nations words and Noah. But at the time 1:01:58.720 --> 1:02:00.600 in the audience. I thought someone was about the pop 1:02:00.640 --> 1:02:04.240 off between you know, Tupac and Tribe, but it wasn't that. 1:02:04.560 --> 1:02:06.800 Yeah, that whole that You're right, that whole show was 1:02:06.920 --> 1:02:09.600 very chaotic. We didn't know what we were doing. Again. 1:02:10.160 --> 1:02:12.520 We were like I think I had written the scripts 1:02:12.600 --> 1:02:16.840 for what they were saying, and like I remember like 1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:18.840 like as soon as the thing started, I realized they 1:02:18.880 --> 1:02:22.040 were all too wordy. Like it wasn't until the real show. 1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:25.040 It wasn't until the show actually begun and the audience 1:02:25.120 --> 1:02:26.920 was there that I realized that all the writing I 1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:30.360 had done was like three x too long. Like I was, 1:02:30.880 --> 1:02:34.640 you know, I was made. I was like I messed 1:02:34.720 --> 1:02:36.560 up and like and up there is like like cool 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:38.880 Hirk is trying to like get through like some sentences 1:02:38.920 --> 1:02:41.680 that I wrote, and it gets all frustrated and like, 1:02:41.760 --> 1:02:45.400 you know, like there was I just remember being very uncomfortable. 1:02:45.400 --> 1:02:48.760 But it wasn't quite as extremely bad as the next one, 1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:52.640 but it was a similar, similar, very chaotic event. 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:57.000 What were your thoughts of nineteen ninety five. I've probably 1:02:57.000 --> 1:03:00.640 going on record stating that kind of and joking, but 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:03.800 as the years go by, sort of serious where if 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:06.560 I were to mark the time where the sand in 1:03:06.640 --> 1:03:10.480 the yeah, where I felt the hip hop that I 1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:14.000 once loved was now like out of my reach, even 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:16.480 though you know, ninety five was still a dope ass 1:03:16.560 --> 1:03:20.800 year and you know, Lord knows I thrived. But first 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:23.360 of all, were you there at all? Without me knowing? 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:28.720 At that point? I was. It was really right in 1:03:28.760 --> 1:03:31.160 the aftermath of this whole breakup that was going on, 1:03:31.640 --> 1:03:34.640 I remember getting a zillion phone calls. I was not there, 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:37.840 but I got a million phone calls from people updates 1:03:37.520 --> 1:03:40.439 for telling me all the crazy stuff and they fight, 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:44.720 they're fighting, yeah, all that stuff. But yeah, I wasn't 1:03:44.720 --> 1:03:47.200 there for that, but yeah, it was. It was. I 1:03:47.240 --> 1:03:52.520 remember thinking, you know, not being super surprised because of 1:03:52.760 --> 1:03:55.120 knowing how bad the first one was that it was 1:03:55.240 --> 1:03:58.000 kind of like more of the same, not how bad, 1:03:58.000 --> 1:04:02.440 but how chaotic it was. And yeah, I you know, 1:04:03.600 --> 1:04:05.360 it wasn't that much of a shock. But I definitely 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:09.040 remember like reacting to that as I also remember from 1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:13.040 the PM down incident too. I wasn't there for you there, no, 1:04:13.120 --> 1:04:15.120 but I was very close with KRS. I was like, 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:17.720 KRS was kind of my hero and he still is. 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:22.080 KRS was you know, my most important rapper in my life. 1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:24.360 He's the guy that I always looked up to, and 1:04:24.440 --> 1:04:28.440 so I interviewed him, actually twenty four hours later after 1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:31.480 that incident. I was the first person to interview KRS, 1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:35.000 and I wrote a story that became a cover story 1:04:35.000 --> 1:04:38.880 where he was on fire. He was going after everybody. 1:04:40.520 --> 1:04:42.800 He was going after X Clan, he was going after 1:04:42.880 --> 1:04:46.440 Core Righteous teachers, he was going after you know, of 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:49.480 course PM down. He went after everybody. And he had 1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:52.000 these he had like a stack of beefs and he 1:04:52.080 --> 1:04:54.760 just was like just one after the next, after the next. 1:04:55.400 --> 1:04:56.440 And yeah, I mean. 1:04:56.320 --> 1:04:59.280 That was when KRS was the king of rap. I 1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:02.960 mean he was definitely the all of hip hop embody 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:04.040 in one person. 1:05:03.920 --> 1:05:06.480 Before I wrap and one, I really want to think 1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:10.080 you're being super generous. I love the fact that Bill, 1:05:10.120 --> 1:05:12.640 you don't remind me that we're almost getting into Jimmy 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:13.560 jam territory. 1:05:13.640 --> 1:05:15.880 I was gonna say, like, this is like a ten parter. Now, 1:05:15.960 --> 1:05:18.280 this is like the you know, the Almanac of the 1:05:18.320 --> 1:05:19.080 source history. 1:05:19.440 --> 1:05:22.960 I'm happy to dude, I purposely did not look at 1:05:22.960 --> 1:05:26.120 the clock one and I'm shocked at even Jake Steve 1:05:26.880 --> 1:05:31.680 around the city. Wait, I'm sorry, I'm seeing I'm at 1:05:31.720 --> 1:05:32.439 work right now. 1:05:33.320 --> 1:05:37.560 I should have known that this was gonna go. Like 1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:40.880 Steve is walking to work. They're like, it's me on 1:05:40.920 --> 1:05:43.640 the floor. This, this is this is an act of 1:05:43.680 --> 1:05:45.120 rebellion I'm doing right now. 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.680 It's perfect, It's perfect source material. Dog, I've been waiting 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:52.760 for this conversation for at least thirty years. YO, like 1:05:52.920 --> 1:05:54.160 this all important. 1:05:54.880 --> 1:05:56.760 I got two guys here in my office with me. 1:05:56.800 --> 1:05:58.960 They've been patient the whole time. To everyone, For those 1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:01.360 who are still awake and still listening, I thank you. 1:06:02.120 --> 1:06:05.120 Trust me, there's an audience for this. Before I wrap, though, 1:06:05.640 --> 1:06:09.800 just in quick retrospect, if you can name like three 1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:14.800 magic moments that we probably don't know about. I don't 1:06:14.840 --> 1:06:17.720 know if you're there for the sequencing of a classic album, 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:22.560 or you were there to witness an incredible show, or 1:06:23.880 --> 1:06:26.120 just in your prime source memories. 1:06:26.760 --> 1:06:29.160 I'll come up with at least one, which is we're 1:06:29.160 --> 1:06:32.120 talking about KRS and I remember this was a really 1:06:32.120 --> 1:06:34.360 important moment for me. Is while we were still at 1:06:34.400 --> 1:06:36.840 Harvard and the Source was born, but it was still 1:06:36.840 --> 1:06:42.120 in its very early stages, and I had got a 1:06:42.160 --> 1:06:47.920 call from Layla Turkin. Yes, who had the one of 1:06:47.960 --> 1:06:52.360 the publicity companies you mentioned earlier, and she was like, hey, 1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:54.760 you know, is there any chance that you could help 1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:58.600 KRS come to Harvard? And I was like, of course, 1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:01.280 Like I would want nothing in my entire life than 1:07:01.320 --> 1:07:07.120 to do that, And that incident became something I think 1:07:07.120 --> 1:07:11.800 about as a pivotal moment in my life. Basically, I 1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:15.600 went to the Black Student Organization of Harvard and tried 1:07:15.640 --> 1:07:19.800 to get them to endorse a keros One speaking engagement. 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:24.240 This is the under the undergraduate Black students of Harvard. 1:07:24.680 --> 1:07:26.920 And I had a friend who was part of that committee. 1:07:27.120 --> 1:07:29.920 So he brought me in and I presented the opportunity. 1:07:30.000 --> 1:07:31.920 I was like, you know, there's at that point, the 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:35.320 source had maybe like a year under its belt or something. 1:07:35.320 --> 1:07:37.480 It had about like eight issues or something like that, 1:07:37.960 --> 1:07:42.320 and I said, you know, I said, I have a 1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:44.960 chance to bring this. You know, everyone knew who KRS was. 1:07:45.000 --> 1:07:47.560 This the leader of hip hop, the most important artist. 1:07:47.920 --> 1:07:50.680 He's going to come to Harvard. And they were like, okay, okay, 1:07:50.720 --> 1:07:52.600 this sounds great. We'll get back to you. And then 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:55.240 they talked about it, and the guy got back to 1:07:55.280 --> 1:07:57.160 me and he said, hey, man, I got bad news. 1:07:57.200 --> 1:08:00.360 They're not going to do it. I'm like what they said, Yeah, 1:08:00.480 --> 1:08:04.080 they're worried about violence and getting a bad name on 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:06.400 the you know, for the student organization. And I'm like, 1:08:06.720 --> 1:08:09.040 this was this was during the time when you know, 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:11.440 everybody thought if you have a rapper, it means like 1:08:11.480 --> 1:08:13.440 you're going to get violence and all the you know, 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:15.840 it was back in the stereotype of you know, some 1:08:15.880 --> 1:08:18.680 people that maybe there's some truth to it, but they 1:08:18.680 --> 1:08:20.400 didn't want to do it. So I'm like, what am 1:08:20.439 --> 1:08:24.920 I going to do? And so I meet somebody who says, oh, no, 1:08:25.000 --> 1:08:28.040 there's another organization you can go to. It's the Kennedy 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:31.320 School of Government, which is one of Harvard's graduate schools, 1:08:31.560 --> 1:08:34.200 and they have a black student organization, which this other 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:36.439 friend of mine was part of. So he's like, come 1:08:36.479 --> 1:08:39.080 into that one. So I come into that one and 1:08:39.160 --> 1:08:42.040 they said, yes, we'll do it. So the night happens, 1:08:42.600 --> 1:08:45.559 they set up the event. It is packed, there's like 1:08:46.320 --> 1:08:48.880 every seat is full, it is absence is probably like 1:08:48.960 --> 1:08:51.559 one thousand, two thousand people there and what is this 1:08:52.240 --> 1:08:57.120 I believe this is nineteen eighty nine and yup, yup, 1:08:57.400 --> 1:09:00.639 and they have like placards for everyone on the panel. 1:09:00.640 --> 1:09:04.000 And there's a whole panel and literally it's Cornell West, 1:09:04.400 --> 1:09:09.160 Henry Lewis Gates, it's every like black intellectual professor like 1:09:09.280 --> 1:09:12.920 legend lined up on the stage and there's a slot 1:09:12.960 --> 1:09:17.960 for KRS. And he's not there. He's missing. The entire 1:09:18.040 --> 1:09:20.960 room is filled, all the other people are on stage, 1:09:21.520 --> 1:09:24.960 and KRS is missing, and I am the only link 1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:28.879 to KRS. So you can imagine how I was feeling 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:31.800 stress level through the roof. And this is the days 1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:35.920 before the internet, before cell phones. Okay, so I basically 1:09:36.120 --> 1:09:38.880 was stressing my ass off. Okay, I had put this 1:09:38.920 --> 1:09:42.719 whole thing together. I was, you know, the main reason 1:09:42.720 --> 1:09:45.840 they were doing this. And he's not even there. So 1:09:45.920 --> 1:09:51.000 I'm standing in front of this building and like the 1:09:51.040 --> 1:09:53.880 time comes that the start time comes, he's not there. 1:09:53.960 --> 1:09:59.320 Fifteen minutes, thirty minutes, forty five minutes, I'm like, I 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:01.760 am dead and never like I have to like what's 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:05.479 going to happen. And then after like fifty minutes, I 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:08.600 look in the distance and I see a cluster of 1:10:08.680 --> 1:10:12.360 people and I realize that's him. It's like the pied Piper, 1:10:12.400 --> 1:10:14.960 like he's walking through the streets and all these kids 1:10:15.000 --> 1:10:18.000 are following him and it's like krs KRS. And he 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:20.880 walks in and I'm like, Chris, what's up man? Where 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:22.960 were you? He's like, what I got on the plane. 1:10:23.160 --> 1:10:25.479 I'm here now, Like, what's the big deal. It's all good, 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:27.479 you know. I'm like, no, you don't understand, Like there's 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:30.000 a crowd, come on right now, right now. So he says, here, 1:10:30.120 --> 1:10:32.559 take this and he hands me, and this shows you 1:10:32.600 --> 1:10:36.960 the time period a giant VHS video recorder, like with 1:10:37.160 --> 1:10:40.639 literally a VHS popped in like over the shoulder, giant, 1:10:40.680 --> 1:10:43.280 heavy ass camera. So he hands it to me. What 1:10:44.280 --> 1:10:46.920 because he's like, hey, tape me, tape me, tape this 1:10:46.960 --> 1:10:49.439 for me, please. He hands it to me. We walk 1:10:49.520 --> 1:10:52.599 into the building. The event has already been now forty 1:10:52.600 --> 1:10:56.040 five minutes underway, but they get the first glimpse of RS, 1:10:56.520 --> 1:11:00.479 and the whole crowd just roar standing ovation. It was 1:11:00.520 --> 1:11:03.320 almost like better because he was late. It made it 1:11:03.360 --> 1:11:07.800 even more impactful. He gets up there and he gives 1:11:07.840 --> 1:11:14.559 this amazing like monologue about hip hop and black history 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:18.520 and America and politics and everything. 1:11:18.840 --> 1:11:21.679 Does this wind up being the interstitials that will wind 1:11:21.760 --> 1:11:22.760 up on edutainment? 1:11:23.920 --> 1:11:26.960 No, but it was similar timeframe, so I'm sure it 1:11:27.000 --> 1:11:29.280 was what was on his mind around that time. Okay. 1:11:29.439 --> 1:11:34.960 And then and then what happens is he gives this 1:11:35.080 --> 1:11:38.599 amazing speech, and then there's some questions and a little 1:11:38.640 --> 1:11:42.080 back and forth and it's going very well. And then 1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:45.800 a black woman in the crowd stands up and asks 1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:50.000 the question, and she says, we got two white boys 1:11:50.080 --> 1:11:53.800 on campus running a rap magazine. We're not happy about that. 1:11:53.840 --> 1:11:56.920 I want to know what you think about that. And 1:11:56.960 --> 1:11:59.599 it was like this very it was like, after all 1:11:59.600 --> 1:12:03.120 this shit happened, now, okay, this like pivotal moment in 1:12:03.160 --> 1:12:05.479 my life. Man. I had already devoted my life. I 1:12:05.520 --> 1:12:08.640 had already, as we told in this story, been already 1:12:08.680 --> 1:12:12.720 devoted to hip hop for years. And KRS looks at 1:12:12.760 --> 1:12:15.479 me and he knows me, you know, And he looks 1:12:15.520 --> 1:12:17.759 at the crowd, he looks at the girl and he says, 1:12:17.840 --> 1:12:19.960 I know what you're talking about. He's like, I know 1:12:20.040 --> 1:12:24.120 those guys, and I have a question for you. Instead 1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:27.160 of asking why are they doing it? Why don't you 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:31.960 ask why aren't I doing it? Those guys work their 1:12:32.120 --> 1:12:35.000 ass off. I know those guys. They love hip hop, 1:12:35.200 --> 1:12:38.320 They work their ass off. Every day, you know, to 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:43.719 do this magazine and I beg you please outdo them. Please, 1:12:43.840 --> 1:12:45.760 if you can do a better job, I beg you, 1:12:45.800 --> 1:12:48.519 please do a better job. We need more voices, we 1:12:48.560 --> 1:12:52.320 need more magazines, we need more hip hop in the world, 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:57.360 you know. And it was like this pivotal moment for me, 1:12:57.520 --> 1:13:00.639 and it validated what we have been doing. It gave 1:13:00.720 --> 1:13:04.680 me the confidence to move on, to keep going. And 1:13:04.720 --> 1:13:08.920 then later after the whole event had done, I was 1:13:08.920 --> 1:13:13.120 sitting alone with KRS in like a diner in Harvard Square, 1:13:13.360 --> 1:13:15.760 and again the Source was very young, we were all 1:13:15.800 --> 1:13:18.920 still very new, and I said to him, man, listen, like, 1:13:19.040 --> 1:13:21.280 you know how much it meant to me that you 1:13:21.479 --> 1:13:24.599 said those things and that you know you're here and 1:13:24.640 --> 1:13:26.360 that kind of And then I said, would you be 1:13:26.400 --> 1:13:29.760 willing to like be our spokesperson? And there was a 1:13:29.760 --> 1:13:31.960 period of time when he agreed, and he actually did. 1:13:32.280 --> 1:13:35.840 He became almost like the spokesperson for the Source. That 1:13:35.920 --> 1:13:38.080 was only for like a period, a short period, but 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:41.720 that whole experience obviously had a huge impact on the 1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:42.519 rest of my career. 1:13:43.840 --> 1:13:51.120 Are there any retrospect regrets in terms of your contributions 1:13:51.160 --> 1:13:53.839 to the Source that you wish you could have corrected 1:13:54.600 --> 1:13:57.439 I don't know the TLC cover. 1:13:57.600 --> 1:13:59.320 Or that's a good one. 1:13:59.400 --> 1:14:01.760 Yeah, yeah, I had no problem with that. But I'm 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:03.920 just saying like it just in general, like is there 1:14:04.040 --> 1:14:07.439 like ah, man, I wish I did a soul's a 1:14:07.520 --> 1:14:10.519 mischief issue before I left or it, like, are there 1:14:10.520 --> 1:14:11.200 any like. 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:15.639 Well, you know, it's the problem with the TLC cover 1:14:15.800 --> 1:14:18.080 was that they were green. Their skin was green because 1:14:18.080 --> 1:14:21.800 it was not printing job. That was the problem. The 1:14:21.800 --> 1:14:24.120 printer did a terrible job and for some reason their 1:14:24.160 --> 1:14:27.280 skin was like green. But the real reason there was 1:14:27.320 --> 1:14:29.160 obviously that was the first R and B group that 1:14:29.200 --> 1:14:31.000 we put on the cover, so we did get a 1:14:31.040 --> 1:14:33.280 lot of flat But I don't regret that. I don't 1:14:33.320 --> 1:14:35.280 regret that because that was you know, that was how 1:14:35.400 --> 1:14:36.960 hip hop was moving at the time, and it was 1:14:37.000 --> 1:14:39.800 a normal evolution, you know. Like I guess, as I 1:14:39.840 --> 1:14:43.200 alluded to earlier, you know, I do wish that the 1:14:43.360 --> 1:14:46.680 ending had been more graceful or more you know, positive. 1:14:48.080 --> 1:14:54.360 And what is your status with Maze now today? Like spoken, 1:14:54.479 --> 1:14:55.160 are you civil? 1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:59.120 We're you're civil? We're civil. We've spoken a few times. 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:02.040 He made he made an effort in recent years to 1:15:02.080 --> 1:15:06.480 be more I think appropriate in terms of his perspective 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:09.000 on things. I think he kind of came around and 1:15:09.080 --> 1:15:11.559 realized that, you know, mistakes have been made, and he 1:15:11.680 --> 1:15:15.000 was kind of more conciliatory in recent years than he 1:15:15.040 --> 1:15:18.040 had been in the past. But obviously, and we know 1:15:18.120 --> 1:15:19.479 if we're not going to get into it all today, 1:15:19.560 --> 1:15:21.160 but I've gone on to do a lot of other 1:15:21.200 --> 1:15:22.240 things in the music. 1:15:22.000 --> 1:15:26.160 And that's all good. 1:15:26.720 --> 1:15:28.320 Another time we can talk about it as a. 1:15:28.800 --> 1:15:31.559 Nine fault man. I'm sorry. I was going to go 1:15:32.120 --> 1:15:32.800 dive right in. 1:15:33.200 --> 1:15:36.000 Yeah, I do, but but I mean, you know, real quick, 1:15:36.040 --> 1:15:38.559 I do music for businesses now. I have a company 1:15:38.600 --> 1:15:42.920 called Playback Prodigy, which is a background music for businesses. 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:45.800 We have thousands of I mean hundreds and even over 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:49.280 a thousand locations around the world. So but anyway, I 1:15:49.320 --> 1:15:50.400 work with a ton of DJs. 1:15:50.720 --> 1:15:56.280 You technically mean when I hear background music in the 1:15:56.320 --> 1:15:58.559 supermarket or that sort of thing, or like. 1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:02.320 Mostly in hospitality places. So we do the music for 1:16:02.560 --> 1:16:05.920 WIN resorts, we do the music for MGM resorts, We 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:07.280 do the music for SOHO House. 1:16:07.560 --> 1:16:09.440 So when I check in to a hotel. 1:16:09.439 --> 1:16:11.920 When you're in a hotel, we do need for tons 1:16:11.920 --> 1:16:15.040 of fancy. 1:16:13.680 --> 1:16:18.400 The soundtrack that I hear. Yeah, I'm secretly obsessed with 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:20.720 that world, man, Like I figured you'd be. 1:16:20.680 --> 1:16:22.880 Curious about that. Yeah, because it's it's it's a great 1:16:22.920 --> 1:16:25.800 perspective on like music, and it forces me to stay 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:28.280 current and and and also to be able to go 1:16:28.360 --> 1:16:31.759 back because there's some people that want yacht rock and soul, 1:16:31.920 --> 1:16:34.800 and some people want you know, cutting edge hip hop, 1:16:34.840 --> 1:16:36.960 and some people want pop, and some people want house 1:16:37.040 --> 1:16:38.439 music and whatever it is. 1:16:38.960 --> 1:16:43.320 So you're a professional curation, correct music curator. Is there 1:16:43.400 --> 1:16:45.360 licensing that has to happen with that or is it 1:16:45.479 --> 1:16:49.360 just like you this restaurant says, hey, I need that 1:16:49.880 --> 1:16:52.840 music for three hours in a loop. And you guys know. 1:16:52.880 --> 1:16:55.760 We like we we we pay all of the appropriate agencies. 1:16:55.800 --> 1:16:57.760 You know, we pay the p R O, s ASCAP, E, 1:16:57.880 --> 1:17:01.120 M I C. Sack. You know, we pay we pay 1:17:01.160 --> 1:17:03.759 everybody that we have to pay to license the music. 1:17:04.720 --> 1:17:07.160 That's one of our expenses, you know, running this business. 1:17:07.240 --> 1:17:10.400 But uh, for the most part, it's you know, it's 1:17:10.479 --> 1:17:13.280 it's hardware, software content. So we do the whole thing. 1:17:13.640 --> 1:17:15.360 But in the end, it's about having good taste in 1:17:15.439 --> 1:17:18.280 music and picking what's appropriate for seeing a certain setting. 1:17:18.479 --> 1:17:21.080 I didn't know that one could actually monetize off that 1:17:21.120 --> 1:17:25.160 because the amount of restaurants that I frequent that are 1:17:25.240 --> 1:17:27.320 just like a mere. Can you send me one of 1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:30.200 your playlists that uh, yeah, I hear about so much 1:17:30.240 --> 1:17:32.160 and I'll be like, yeah, sure, and I'll make them 1:17:32.479 --> 1:17:35.000 a five hour playlist and they'll be playing it. I 1:17:35.040 --> 1:17:37.719 didn't realize that that is a business. 1:17:39.120 --> 1:17:41.280 Yeah, I've been doing this for about eight years, eight 1:17:41.240 --> 1:17:43.200 and nine. I can get a job with you, please. 1:17:43.240 --> 1:17:44.880 I would love I would love nothing more than be 1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:47.400 able to say playlist by a mere quest love Thompson. 1:17:47.720 --> 1:17:50.160 That would be our greatest you know, feature ever if 1:17:50.160 --> 1:17:52.000 we're able to say that. But yeah, for sure, man. 1:17:52.040 --> 1:17:54.920 We It's kind of like being a DJ behind the curtain. 1:17:55.040 --> 1:17:56.840 It's like being It's like w'sard of Oz, Like you 1:17:56.840 --> 1:17:58.920 get to be the DJ, but no one sees you. 1:17:58.920 --> 1:18:00.920 You know, You're like, it's kind of fun. 1:18:01.240 --> 1:18:05.160 Wow, Okay, now I'm excited about that. You think I'm joking. 1:18:05.600 --> 1:18:10.360 I'm not. I love all I love is curating. Now 1:18:10.360 --> 1:18:12.320 do you open that door? I have so many more 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:15.280 questions about that, but I technically have to get to 1:18:15.320 --> 1:18:18.400 work right now. Okay, the longest four hour lunch break 1:18:18.520 --> 1:18:21.639 of it, but very much well worth epic. I knew 1:18:21.640 --> 1:18:23.640 it was going to be epic. Now that I'm in 1:18:23.680 --> 1:18:28.160 the space that I'm in, I'm really hoping that perhaps 1:18:28.200 --> 1:18:31.320 you two can come to some sort of agreement in 1:18:31.439 --> 1:18:35.360 terms of at least setting the legacy right. You know, 1:18:35.400 --> 1:18:39.519 there's the time where, yes, everything that you've described, I 1:18:39.520 --> 1:18:42.600 would love to see this told mad Men's style. I 1:18:42.680 --> 1:18:49.160 believe that this is almost a six season episodic series 1:18:49.320 --> 1:18:51.920 that you've told and certain the stuff you didn't tell 1:18:52.000 --> 1:18:55.720 me was even you know, worth it. But no, just 1:18:56.200 --> 1:18:58.720 in general, man, I want to thank you for your 1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:04.479 contribution to that magazine, and you know that magazine especially 1:19:04.479 --> 1:19:08.200 being a pivotal moment in my life in terms of 1:19:08.360 --> 1:19:11.160 what I wanted to do for a living and something 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:14.160 to look forward to and to aspire to be. And 1:19:14.920 --> 1:19:17.880 the shit literally has me here right now interviewing you, Man, 1:19:17.920 --> 1:19:20.479 I want to thank you for that, and that's kind 1:19:20.479 --> 1:19:22.600 of why this was a lengthy interview and not just 1:19:22.640 --> 1:19:26.240 a forty five minutes Oh tell me where you started? Like, thanks, n. 1:19:26.439 --> 1:19:28.479 I'm great, thank you. I appreciate all you guys for 1:19:28.520 --> 1:19:31.840 having me on and also in particular a mirror for 1:19:31.960 --> 1:19:36.479 representing you know what I think Philly does represent, which 1:19:36.560 --> 1:19:39.880 is a love of music, a knowledge of music, a 1:19:40.320 --> 1:19:43.559 respect for music. You know, like growing up in Philly, 1:19:43.800 --> 1:19:46.080 we that's what's in our It's in the water, as 1:19:46.120 --> 1:19:48.599 we say, w ar t e er water. 1:19:48.840 --> 1:19:49.800 Yes, it's in the water. 1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:53.559 Basically, you know, we love music in Philly. And if 1:19:53.600 --> 1:19:56.760 you go back to Philly today, we're still playing the classics. 1:19:56.800 --> 1:19:58.720 You know, you walk into store that you're here like 1:19:58.800 --> 1:20:03.200 Luther Vandross or It's Takes two or Bruce Springsteen or whatever. 1:20:03.240 --> 1:20:04.720 You know what I mean, it's going to be like, 1:20:04.840 --> 1:20:08.599 we just love the classics in Philly and it's in 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:11.439 the water. And I am grateful for all the things 1:20:11.439 --> 1:20:15.439 that you and your colleagues have done to be a 1:20:15.479 --> 1:20:17.360 positive force in the world of music. 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:19.480 So thank you so Jonathan. 1:20:19.680 --> 1:20:21.840 Yes, sir, how many mites would you give the Source 1:20:22.479 --> 1:20:23.360 as a magazine? 1:20:24.160 --> 1:20:24.479 Wow? 1:20:24.840 --> 1:20:26.639 In your time period and overall? 1:20:27.560 --> 1:20:30.000 Verat question? Man, I mean it was worth a four 1:20:30.040 --> 1:20:34.400 hour wait for that one, Okay, you know, I really 1:20:34.600 --> 1:20:39.360 I often say that my golden era is the Source's 1:20:39.400 --> 1:20:45.960 golden era. So I think that nineteen from I did 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:49.160 an issue called the Decade of Wrap, which came out 1:20:49.200 --> 1:20:52.920 in nineteen ninety. It was a look back to nineteen 1:20:52.920 --> 1:20:56.200 eighty to nineteen ninety. That was my senior thesis at Harvard, 1:20:56.720 --> 1:20:58.800 was that issue of the Source. So I would say 1:20:58.840 --> 1:21:03.000 from that issue until the time I left five mics 1:21:03.360 --> 1:21:06.920 because we did everything. Now I have no comment on 1:21:06.960 --> 1:21:08.840 what happened after I left, because I had nothing to 1:21:08.840 --> 1:21:12.720 do with it, thank god. But basically, you know, I 1:21:12.760 --> 1:21:15.720 think that our time period four and a half to 1:21:15.800 --> 1:21:17.040 five you know, a mere set of four and a 1:21:17.080 --> 1:21:19.720 half is cool, but you know, I mean, I do 1:21:19.800 --> 1:21:22.200 think that that time period in my life is a 1:21:22.200 --> 1:21:24.760 five MIC time period. And it's like, you know, what 1:21:24.880 --> 1:21:27.280 I look back is my golden era. So I'm very 1:21:27.280 --> 1:21:28.440 grateful for it. 1:21:28.479 --> 1:21:31.519 Is there a place where I can collectively get like 1:21:31.600 --> 1:21:37.000 my one dream is to see the entire Source cannon 1:21:37.840 --> 1:21:42.280 as a volume set? Or do you own every issue? 1:21:42.320 --> 1:21:43.400 Like do you have boxes? 1:21:43.400 --> 1:21:46.599 And yes, I have boxes, and as my colleagues here 1:21:46.600 --> 1:21:48.760 in Vegas, cy, I have all kinds of shit. Man. 1:21:48.760 --> 1:21:53.400 I got boxes of pictures, records autographed by everybody, rec 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:57.760 gold records, you know, promo material, but and also all 1:21:57.760 --> 1:22:00.479 the issues and also all the internal stuff. I have 1:22:00.560 --> 1:22:03.599 a whole lot of internal documents about when we were 1:22:03.600 --> 1:22:06.679 making the issues and all that stuff, and I would 1:22:06.720 --> 1:22:08.960 like to The Source has a new owner. I'm a 1:22:08.960 --> 1:22:10.800 guy named Londell McMillan. 1:22:10.760 --> 1:22:13.400 And he is I'm familiar with Londel. 1:22:13.600 --> 1:22:17.040 You know who Londell is. So Londel, I would like 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:17.559 to say. 1:22:17.400 --> 1:22:19.800 Right, no, Prince by Documentaries landed. 1:22:20.080 --> 1:22:24.559 He pretends to Prince very very assiduously. But yes, I 1:22:24.600 --> 1:22:30.320 will say that Londel. You heard Requestlove just said, let's 1:22:30.360 --> 1:22:33.519 put every issue. I'm only talking about mine. So the 1:22:33.560 --> 1:22:34.760 first let's just say the first. 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:36.760 So he owns the IP right now. 1:22:36.760 --> 1:22:39.160 The first fifty issues of the Source, which is roughly 1:22:39.240 --> 1:22:41.479 my time period. A little bit more than that. I 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:43.479 think I did like fifty four to fifty five issues 1:22:43.520 --> 1:22:47.360 something like that. So the first fifty whatever issues from 1:22:47.360 --> 1:22:50.360 that nineteen eighty to the one that had cool HERK 1:22:50.560 --> 1:22:53.639 Bam and Flash on the cover, which is the hip 1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:56.960 hop History issue. Between those two, I would like to 1:22:56.960 --> 1:22:59.840 put all those online for free. I don't want to 1:22:59.840 --> 1:23:01.680 make money from it. I just want the world to 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:04.120 have it. I want to put them online for free. 1:23:04.520 --> 1:23:06.559 The only person that can give me the green light 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:09.960 is Londell. So Londel, let's do it for the sake 1:23:10.040 --> 1:23:12.080 of history. Let's do it for the sake of the 1:23:12.200 --> 1:23:15.920 legacy and for and also let's make it searchable so 1:23:15.960 --> 1:23:18.519 that people can, you know, if you want to look 1:23:18.560 --> 1:23:21.240 up like large professor, you can type in large professor 1:23:21.280 --> 1:23:23.559 and you see all the page's he's on, you know. 1:23:23.640 --> 1:23:26.000 But but yeah, that's that's what we need to do. 1:23:26.479 --> 1:23:30.000 You're mount the God's ears. All right, Londel, you heard 1:23:30.000 --> 1:23:30.719 it here first. 1:23:31.720 --> 1:23:32.920 This show is still going on. 1:23:33.080 --> 1:23:37.000 Get out of here, all right, y'all. We gotta sign off, John, 1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:39.639 thank you. Going to be up a Bill and unpaid 1:23:39.680 --> 1:23:45.880 Steve than That sounds about right? Is quest Love next week? 1:23:48.920 --> 1:23:49.800 This is Sugar Steve. 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:53.200 Thank you for listening to Quest Love Supermeo. This podcast 1:23:53.240 --> 1:23:56.400 is hosted by a Mere Quest Love, Thompson, Liah Saint Clair, Sugar, 1:23:56.400 --> 1:24:00.599 Steve Mandel, and Unpaid Bill Sherman. The executs your producers 1:24:00.640 --> 1:24:03.599 are a Mere Quest of Thompson, Sean g and Brian Calhoun, 1:24:04.560 --> 1:24:07.920 produced by Britney, Benjamin, Jake Payne and Liiah Saint Clair. 1:24:09.000 --> 1:24:10.439 Edited by Alex Conroy. 1:24:11.479 --> 1:24:13.440 Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown. 1:24:23.520 --> 1:24:30.920 West. Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 1:24:30.960 --> 1:24:35.000 podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:24:35.400 --> 1:24:37.120 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.