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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. All Right, y'all,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Quest Love Supreme. This summer, we sat down

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Speaker 1: with Jonathan Schechter, who is the co founder and the

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Speaker 1: first editor in chief of The Source magazine, The Hip

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Speaker 1: Hop Bible, The Source. That's right the card. Part one welcome.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't, make sure you check it out before

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Speaker 1: you listen to this one. And you know, Checkey spoke

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Speaker 1: about growing up in Philly, working at Howard one nine

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Speaker 1: in the early eighties, and his days at the Source

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Speaker 1: back when it was just a pamphlet at Heart Cool.

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Speaker 1: I got to answer, Oh, it's Jonathan Schechter. He's telling

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Speaker 1: me to wrap it up. All right, guys, listen to

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Speaker 1: part two right now of Jonathan Schechter The Source Peter.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what happened was we had halftime and Live

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Speaker 2: of the Barbecue. Okay, to recognize's first two appearances Live

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Speaker 2: of the Barbecue. Everyone knows the main Source. I should

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Speaker 2: mention also because you brought up something about the ratings,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's important to note that those four

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Speaker 2: and mics, the ratings were the number one thing that

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Speaker 2: people spoke. There was two things that people cared about

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Speaker 2: who was on the cover and what rating did they get.

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Speaker 2: Those are the things that we hear the most feedback on.

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Speaker 2: That was what every just general person on the street

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Speaker 2: cared about. The other thing they cared about is like

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Speaker 2: seeing what the rappers were like in real life, like

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Speaker 2: you know, like what cars they drive and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So there was layers to it, but basically so we

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Speaker 2: actually gave If I take one more step back, there

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Speaker 2: was a brief period of time when we were reviewing

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Speaker 2: singles as well as albums given ratings to singles. We

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Speaker 2: always reviewed singles, but for a short period of time,

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Speaker 2: we actually gave the mic ratings to singles. Looking Out

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Speaker 2: the Front Door got five mics, as it should. It's

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Speaker 2: a hip hop classic, no doubt, right. I loved I

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Speaker 2: love Large Professor, I love Main Source. I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of us love love that record. That was the

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Speaker 2: only time in the history of the Source that anyone

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Speaker 2: ever thanked us for a review. We did hundreds and

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Speaker 2: hundreds of reviews. One time only the Sir Scratch and

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Speaker 2: Kcutt's mother showed up at the Source office. They were Canadian.

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Speaker 2: Remember they're from Toronto. I think it's they're so polite, right,

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Speaker 2: those Canadians, there's so nice. They's so nice, and they

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Speaker 2: showed and this was literally all we ever got was

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Speaker 2: negative feedback from people that were mad. One time I

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Speaker 2: can ever recall somebody who was like, thank you so much,

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Speaker 2: that review meant so much to us. Here's and she

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Speaker 2: gave me a bottle of like Canadian whiskey or something

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Speaker 2: and I and I kept it like on my desk

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Speaker 2: for years. But she that was the only time that

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Speaker 2: anyone ever thanked us for a review. The feedback was

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Speaker 2: only either nothing, silence or negative. The only positive feedback

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Speaker 2: we ever got was from main sources, Sir Scratch and

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Speaker 2: ca Cut. There were brothers, their mother out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, shout out to uh manners and.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, polite goes along with I appreciated

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Speaker 2: it that she did that. I was very nice of her.

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Speaker 1: But before you tell the story, and I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: mentioned Maine source, let me ask your opinion. It was

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Speaker 1: actually that main source issue that was my uh not

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Speaker 1: north Star. But I believe that getting a four point

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Speaker 1: five getting four and a half mics in the source

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Speaker 1: was better than getting five mics in the source. Why

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Speaker 1: because everyone has the whole Golden era thing you say

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Speaker 1: yours is eighty four to ninety four, the period in

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Speaker 1: which we would have critical thing King Friday discussions of

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Speaker 1: an album like religiously like and I missed that so

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Speaker 1: much about about hip hop. Now, it's definitely between like

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Speaker 1: eighty eight and kind of ninety Maybe we stopped in

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Speaker 1: ninety six ninety seven because then it became like, well,

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Speaker 1: they said this was classic, and we don't think this

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Speaker 1: is classic. Like we became like olderf and Statler in

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Speaker 1: the Muppets, like yeah, right, But I will say that.

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Speaker 1: For me, I was like, okay, when something gets five

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Speaker 1: mics because someone in my crew didn't get why Daylas

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Speaker 1: Soul is Dead got a perfect five and I was like, dog,

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Speaker 1: this is the best sequence records, the samples I never

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Speaker 1: heard before, the rhyme star like everything about this album

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Speaker 1: is pitch perfect. And they were like yeah, but you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, and he said, you know, I'm a little

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Speaker 1: biased because they you know, in his mind it was

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Speaker 1: like they're just always giving out fives, and I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's quite the opposite. Like I think the source is

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Speaker 1: really hard to please and this example of it, but

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Speaker 1: that stuck with me, and I realized that people don't

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Speaker 1: criticize you as much if you have a four and

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Speaker 1: a half. It's almost like four and a half is

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Speaker 1: the same effect as a five, but it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you that threatening where you got to be like man,

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Speaker 1: fuck da da da da da or I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That's my theory. I always thought four and a half

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Speaker 1: was better than a five.

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Speaker 2: And so the way the ratings worked as we got

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Speaker 2: more mature now if we're moving into like the early nineties,

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Speaker 2: is that we would Reggie became the music editor, as

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Speaker 2: I mentioned, and we would to sign out the reviews

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Speaker 2: to people. Sometimes I would write a couple, but for

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Speaker 2: the most part that was kind of the reviews were

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Speaker 2: kind of a place for the newer writers for the

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Speaker 2: most part, you know, it was kind of like a

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Speaker 2: way for someone to break into the source.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you would trusted me to that instead of like

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Speaker 1: for like a.

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Speaker 2: Spacest album or something. I mean, you know, if not

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Speaker 2: for like the big marquee names, but for like, you know,

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Speaker 2: for like such a new artist, you know, like somebody knew.

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Speaker 2: We would give it to like somebody new because I

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Speaker 2: was a chance for them to kind of prove themselves,

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Speaker 2: you know, the rating, but the rating okay, So there

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Speaker 2: was like a separate thing. The review would get written,

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Speaker 2: but we would have a separate meeting every month with

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Speaker 2: all the main people there, the people I mentioned, and

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Speaker 2: we would discuss the ratings. And that was when would you.

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Speaker 1: Thoroughly review it, like thoroughly listening to it, or just

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Speaker 1: like you.

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Speaker 2: Would defer to the person kind of who had you know,

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Speaker 2: if you hadn't, if I hadn't personally listened to the

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Speaker 2: whole album, I would I would try to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: cognizant of that and not not over not just just

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Speaker 2: give opinions on what I knew, you know, Like but

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Speaker 2: there were only a handful of times that I like

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Speaker 2: forced the issue and like put my foot down and

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Speaker 2: like we got to give this a five. Ill Matic

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Speaker 2: was one of those only times.

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Speaker 1: You thought it was classic material. Who was like it

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Speaker 1: might be four.

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Speaker 2: It or Reggie Reggie. Reggie was like, you know, it's not.

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Speaker 2: We don't know if it's going to be a class

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was easy to say Listen five was

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Speaker 2: called a hip hop classic, so it was easy to

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Speaker 2: say in the course of this meeting which we had

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Speaker 2: every month, where we would discuss the ratings. Is that

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Speaker 2: really a hip hop classic? Is this going to be

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Speaker 2: remembered twenty years from now as like a very important

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Speaker 2: And it was a hard question. You know, You're like, here,

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Speaker 2: we are ahead of even it coming out, We're like

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Speaker 2: months ahead of it. Even we're like among like maybe

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Speaker 2: a dozen people that I've even heard this record, and

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Speaker 2: now we have to decide is it going to be

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Speaker 2: a hip hop classic? It's kind of hard, you know,

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Speaker 2: It's like it's not easy in the case of Illmatic. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So what happened was we had heard halftime, we loved it,

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Speaker 2: loved it. That movie Zebrahead, remember I think that came

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Speaker 2: up on another one of your episodes. I saw, yeah

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Speaker 2: with the Clark Kent right, that's correct, right with Clark

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Speaker 2: Kent worked.

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Speaker 1: At rough House, and we have the premiere at zebra

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Speaker 1: Head and Clark Kent starts spinning in vokes, hold on

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Speaker 1: and nods, gets up from freestyle, and I think maybe

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Speaker 1: I was like the six in line. So that's my Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's right, you were wrapped.

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Speaker 2: That's when you wrapped. I remember, Yes, that's right, Okay, okay, cool.

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Speaker 2: So no, so I was so we loved Halftime and

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Speaker 2: Live with the Barbecue. This kid Nas incredible. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was shocking. You know, I'm waving automatic guns and

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Speaker 2: nuns and you know, hell for snuffing Jesus and all

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Speaker 2: that stuff. So it was shocking. It was like shocking wrap.

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Speaker 2: But it was obviously really good and it was really literate,

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Speaker 2: and it was it was it sounded great, and we

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Speaker 2: were very, very hungry to hear more from this kid Nas.

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Speaker 2: So I had a trip booked to Philly and on

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Speaker 2: the agenda was to visit Chris Schwartz and to go

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Speaker 2: to rough House Records. So I went. It might have

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Speaker 2: been an early ninety three, ninety four, I guess. So

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Speaker 2: when was that released. I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: The summer ninety two was zebra Head, but yeah, ninety

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Speaker 1: three is yeah, so.

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Speaker 2: It was late ninety it was after it was after

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Speaker 2: zebra Heead, it was probably late ninety two. I go

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Speaker 2: to Philly and I sat in that rough House when

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Speaker 2: when rough House was in the suburbs, it was like

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Speaker 2: he had this office in the It was no longer

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Speaker 2: in the city. It was in the suburbs somewhere I remember,

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Speaker 2: And Chris Schwartz was at the desk, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we talked about a few different things, and then you know,

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Speaker 2: rough House had some great records, you know, they had

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Speaker 2: some great stuff. So but my real agenda for being

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Speaker 2: there was I wanted to hear more Nas. I didn't

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Speaker 2: tell him that, but that was my true agenda for

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Speaker 2: going there. So I go there, and Chris Schwartz, as

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Speaker 2: you recall, had kind of like the air of like

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Speaker 2: a messy person, sort of like his hair was kind

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Speaker 2: of messy. Gems version, Yeah, exactly exactly. It was a

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Speaker 2: very hectic, noisy, sort of like disheveled atmosphere, right, And

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Speaker 2: so there was like a desk with like coffee cups

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Speaker 2: and piles of tapes and records and all. And so

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Speaker 2: I go in and he's like, I'm like, hey man,

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Speaker 2: you know, so we talked about other stuff, and then

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Speaker 2: I'm like, so listen about this guy Nas. He's like, Nas,

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Speaker 2: you know who that is? And I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: of course, we know who that is. Halftime Live with

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Speaker 2: the Barbecue. He's like, oh, man, I mean, I'm surprised

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Speaker 2: you guys know about him. And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we love him, we love Nas. We're really curious to

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Speaker 2: hear more stuff, and he searches through his desk and

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Speaker 2: moves some stuff around. He picks up a cassette and

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Speaker 2: he hands it to me. He'say, you can check this out.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I can keep it. He's like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can keep it. Put it in my pocket. I

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Speaker 2: leave the meeting. I go back to thirtieth Street station.

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Speaker 2: I get back on the train Amtrak back to New

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Speaker 2: York City. I pop take out my Walkman, so using

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Speaker 2: Walkman back, then pop into the Walkman hit play, and

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Speaker 2: what I have in my hands in my Walkman is

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Speaker 2: the entire Illmatic album, like six seven months before it

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Speaker 2: came out. Okay, it was like so long in advance.

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Speaker 2: It was the first draft of it. There was like

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Speaker 2: multiple mixes were different. I still have this cassette, by

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Speaker 2: the way, it's still it's my office right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: well have it here right now. So basically I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: here on this Amtrak train listening to represent you know

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Speaker 2: one Love, you know, all these like unbelievable songs, and

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Speaker 2: by the time I get to New York, I am

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Speaker 2: like floating in the air with the realization that I

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Speaker 2: have like the Holy Grail in my pocket. I have

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Speaker 2: maybe like the greatest album I've ever heard in my life,

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Speaker 2: Like sitting and no one. It's like this feeling of

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Speaker 2: no one knows about it, no one's heard it. It

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Speaker 2: was it was like, literally like I don't know why.

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Speaker 2: I to this day, I have no idea why Chris Schwartz.

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously he wants to promote his music, but

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Speaker 2: it was way too early to give that cassette to

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Speaker 2: the Source. It was like.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know what they had, which is why I

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Speaker 1: think why I went back to Columbia and not on

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Speaker 1: because we had nas on rough House for the longest

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly it was like shrug, Columbia took him back.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and Faith Faith knew men, yeah, and so

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Speaker 2: forth right, right and so so that's what happened. I

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Speaker 2: think he just didn't realize that he had this, you know, legendary,

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Speaker 2: you know, ground bright, earth shattering record here. So I

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Speaker 2: get back to New York. I immediately it's already now

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Speaker 2: it's like ten eleven o'clock at night. I go back

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Speaker 2: to the Source office downtown. I knew that some people

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Speaker 2: were going to be there. I walk in. It's Maddie

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Speaker 2: c Reef, Chris Wilder, Scott Free later on Loud Records,

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Speaker 2: An R was there, I remember, and I walk in

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Speaker 2: and we had like a mediocre like you know system,

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Speaker 2: like you know, some kind of like off the shelf

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Speaker 2: stereo system. I hit play and I play the entire

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Speaker 2: album for this assembled heads the mind Squad, and literally

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Speaker 2: every single person is just like you know, like I remember,

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Speaker 2: Scott Free was literally laying on the floor like he

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Speaker 2: was so blown away, like he you know when people

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Speaker 2: like fall down out of like mock, you know, shock,

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Speaker 2: you know, like he was just the entire room was

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Speaker 2: just what the this is insane? This is so good especially.

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Speaker 1: Something though, Yeah, because the thing was when I had

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Speaker 1: those moments, they were chaotic bomb squad moments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I never had that moment with a regular meat and

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Speaker 1: potatoes perfect beat like bo perfect yeah, perfect rhyme, just

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no novelty to it. It's not like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah it was a classic because they're using childhood

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Speaker 1: records or they're using ninety five trillion samples, like I've

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Speaker 1: never heard just a perfect beat, rhyme, perfection record, and

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Speaker 1: so it because it didn't come with whistles, the same

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Speaker 1: bells and whistles that three feet hind Rising was, or

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Speaker 1: Nation of Millions was, or Americans most want it was.

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Speaker 1: You know, he wasn't hyper For me, it was like

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Speaker 1: such a risk because when I heard it again, there's

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Speaker 1: that Gangstar issue. I read the review first and then

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Speaker 1: I was like, I got it and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's so normal. It's one It is only ten songs,

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Speaker 1: like rap records back then were like twenty seven songs.

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Speaker 1: I was like, there's no skits, there's no no, no no.

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Speaker 1: And my manager finally brought me down to earth. He's like, yo, man,

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Speaker 1: this is what intervisions. But Stevie Wonder was like there

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Speaker 1: was this nine perfect songs, like this is nine perfect songs.

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Speaker 1: And I actually had to grapple with that, like I

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Speaker 1: wasn't in touch with how I felt. I still had

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Speaker 1: to follow what you guys said, and I had so

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Speaker 1: many questions about a nine bells and whistles record getting

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Speaker 1: that much much acclaim to it. But you guys instantly

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Speaker 1: felt you got goosebumps from the gate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I remember just I loved every song.

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Speaker 2: I liked every single song, especially one Love that was

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Speaker 2: the one that pushed me over the top, Like you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just so deep, you know, it just sounds so

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Speaker 2: and his lyrics are so good on it, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just so. That was like something like, you know,

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Speaker 2: six or eight months before the album ended up coming out.

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Speaker 2: So we have this holy grail now sitting in our possession.

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Speaker 2: What do we do with it? And I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: It was that issue with Gangster on the cover, yep.

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Speaker 2: And I went and I took on the job of

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Speaker 2: because I had this experience, you know, I went and

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Speaker 2: took on the job of writing the feature about NOAs,

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Speaker 2: introducing NOAs to the world. It was called the Second

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Speaker 2: Coming and it was a reference to obviously Rock him

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Speaker 2: because that was you know, the god MC that's who

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Speaker 2: everyone viewed as pretty much the greatest rapper of all time,

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Speaker 2: almost universally, and NAS was viewed as as, you know,

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Speaker 2: the next in line for that kind of a title

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Speaker 2: just by us. I mean, I don't know, the world

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Speaker 2: didn't know yet, but that was how we were looking

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Speaker 2: at it. And we went and then matt went, Mattie

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Speaker 2: C went and interviewed all the producers that were involved,

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Speaker 2: you know, Pete Rock, Premiere, Q Tip and Large Professor

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Speaker 2: and so it was like this dream team. So we

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Speaker 2: put together the story and then we still had to

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Speaker 2: do the review part of it. So we assigned it

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Speaker 2: in one of these cases again to a newer writer,

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Speaker 2: and her name was Minya oh Yeah, later known to

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Speaker 2: the world as miss Info.

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Speaker 1: Miss info right. Yes, but she called herself Shorty.

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Speaker 2: She caught herself Shorty right because she was she was

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Speaker 2: an incredibly hip, uptown New York chick, you know, came

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Speaker 2: in and was just like just new shit, way ahead.

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Speaker 2: I mean, but this was still very early in her evolution,

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Speaker 2: I think, and we assigned her the job. I'm really

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Speaker 2: glad it was her because you.

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Speaker 1: Know, was it risky for you to not see this through?

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Speaker 1: Like were you not were you not allowed to touch

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Speaker 1: your own reviews or would that been seen as a

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Speaker 1: conflict of interest, like, well you can't be the editor

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Speaker 1: a chief in HM.

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Speaker 2: No, that wasn't really I mean, like in this case,

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Speaker 2: I think the reasoning was that I had already written,

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Speaker 2: like I was obviously the main champion of it inside

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Speaker 2: the building.

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Speaker 1: But you saw the feature story more important than his

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Speaker 1: album review.

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Speaker 2: In my mind, that was the that's more journalistic to me,

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Speaker 2: is like this feature story is where you tell the

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Speaker 2: whole story, you know, and like that's.

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Speaker 1: Where no friends, I don't remember that story, but I

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Speaker 1: remember that album.

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Speaker 2: I get it. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. I understand that

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Speaker 2: that's the case because listen, as I said earlier, what

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Speaker 2: most people did, just like yourself, is they looked and see, oh,

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Speaker 2: who's on the cover. Okay, it's so and so, and

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Speaker 2: then they'd flip right to the back and say what

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Speaker 2: rating did everything get? Like that was the normal way

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Speaker 2: people consume the source. Absolutely, I get it.

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Speaker 1: Why didn't you put the record reviews in the front

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Speaker 1: of the magazine?

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Speaker 2: Then you know what, Again, I think it was earlier,

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I was following that Rolling Stones like structure,

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Speaker 2: and they had the reviews in the back.

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Speaker 1: So, by the way, I did read everything. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I did read the thing backwards, so.

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Speaker 2: I know, I get it. I get it. It's all good.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we should did the review. But then again

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Speaker 2: we had now this is where we had the big meeting,

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Speaker 2: and I was pounding this is one case where I

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Speaker 2: use my authority to force the issue. And I was like, Reggie,

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Speaker 2: it's a five man, what do he five? I think

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Speaker 2: he wanted either a four or maybe a four point five.

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Speaker 2: The others in the room, everyone agreed with I mean,

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Speaker 2: the most majority of people agreed with me. There was

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Speaker 2: a few maybe I don't remember exactly who didn't. I

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Speaker 2: know Reggie was the main voice of the opposition in

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Speaker 2: this case. He lost the debate and he got a five,

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Speaker 2: and I think he would admit that we were correct

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Speaker 2: about giving it a five. I mean, obviously it's pretty

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Speaker 2: much the iconic hip hop album, or among the iconic,

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Speaker 2: legendary all time classic hip hop albums. I think everyone

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Speaker 2: agrees with that.

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Speaker 1: For me crafting albums, of course, it was always does

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Speaker 1: someone see the vision inside my head the same way

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Speaker 1: that I see it? You know, when they review it?

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Speaker 1: And so the obsessive amount of headaches I gave my

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Speaker 1: publicist Amy Marsh just daily about like, Okay, when do

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Speaker 1: we give this to the source? When do we give

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Speaker 1: this to the source? When do we get this to

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Speaker 1: the source? You know, we're not going to get to

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Speaker 1: that part of the story yet of what happened that

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Speaker 1: day in October of ninety four. However, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was to the point where I saw it as me

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Speaker 1: getting up at five in the morning to get on

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Speaker 1: a train to and the thing was Amy is like,

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Speaker 1: you cannot go to the source of me, like that's

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Speaker 1: that's you know, there were still rules of like you know,

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Speaker 1: not crossing the line as an artist and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, and literally me going to the source to

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Speaker 1: get the issue because you guys would not reveal to

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Speaker 1: her what the rating was. She did tell me like, yes,

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Speaker 1: you guys got the leave review. But for me to

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Speaker 1: get up in another state at five in the morning,

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Speaker 1: to get on a train to go to New York,

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Speaker 1: to go outside that building and for her to hand

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Speaker 1: me that issue and for me to look and read

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Speaker 1: the review first before I see the mics and I'm

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Speaker 1: going through each bike like okay one, Mic two, Mike three,

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Speaker 1: Mike four, Mike, okay four, Mic, I'll take four. It

386
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Speaker 1: was literally of that obsessive level, like at what point

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Speaker 1: did you realize that the artists are obsessed with that?

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Speaker 1: Like I'm certain was not even door like what the

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Speaker 1: source give me or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's we knew, like

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Speaker 2: there was a sense that the ratings were important because

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Speaker 2: we you know, you could you could hear it in

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Speaker 2: the in the feedback. We got that everybody. We knew

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Speaker 2: that the ratings were one of the main things that

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Speaker 2: people looked at, but we spent most of our time

396
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Speaker 2: on the rest of the magazine, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: Like we were filling the magazine with features and photo shoots,

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Speaker 2: and then we got into fashion and electronics and movies

399
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 2: and TV and film and you know, and all that stuff.

400
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Speaker 2: So so in other words, there was the answer to

401
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Speaker 2: your question is we always knew that people were watching

402
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Speaker 2: and that their artists cared, but we didn't get a

403
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Speaker 2: lot of feedback, you know, like we from the artists.

404
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 2: It wasn't commonplace for people. I mean they might have

405
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 2: been angry or they might have been happy, and we

406
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Speaker 2: didn't hear it usually. I mean we you know, of

407
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Speaker 2: course we would talk to the label people, and I

408
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: guess maybe you would hear second hand all the you know,

409
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 2: Questlove was very happy with a review or whatever, you

410
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Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like I might have Warne something

411
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 2: like that, but like it wasn't it wasn't. There wasn't

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Speaker 2: a lot of drip artists interaction. I mean, there was interaction,

413
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Speaker 2: but just not feedback necessarily.

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Speaker 1: As a fan. Only have one question ahead, and that

415
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Speaker 1: is I wish you guys would have reconsidered all of

416
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Speaker 1: your Gang Star.

417
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Speaker 2: Reviews again, listen three and a half.

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Speaker 1: I mean eventually long after you left. Of course, you

419
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: know they evaluated that. Yeah, yeah, there was revalve based

420
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: and moment of truth got it's just do with the

421
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: four and a half review. But that's long after you

422
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 1: guys had left the building. But this one thing I

423
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: wanted to ask also, is there's a point where you

424
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Speaker 1: know the way that the stories are presented, you know,

425
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: more importantly, like would you consider the hell Raiser Tupac issue,

426
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: like if any thing? I feel as though the hell

427
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: Raiser issue really built whom we know as Tupac. Like

428
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: before that issue, you might have had a clue of

429
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: who Tupac was if you watch MTV news or you know,

430
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: was that after Juice or nah, this is hell Raiser

431
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: is like possibly right before he gets shot in the Yeah,

432
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: this is like early ninety four, but it was such No,

433
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: that's after Juice Citiary. Oh it's way after Juice.

434
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, after Juice. Okay, Bishop came to life, so

435
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: right exactly. Okay, So let's talk about Tupac because I

436
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 2: was going to talk about Gangstar, but Tupac. I got

437
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: some interesting perspectives. So, I mean I didn't really love

438
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 2: Tupac as a rapper for a long time. When he

439
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: came out, you know, I clown around when I rolled

440
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: around with the Underground like, it wasn't necessarily earth shattering.

441
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: It was just we were comparing every one to rock

442
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: him basically and KRSS I get.

443
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 2: K the Mount Rushmore was was KRS rock him and

444
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: Chuck d And then you could argue for the fourth

445
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: one being Big Daddy Kane she wrapped, you know, or

446
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: a number of others to ll you know, there's other potentials.

447
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 2: But anyway, so when Tupac came out with that, I

448
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: didn't like it. I didn't like him. I didn't like

449
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: his early albums. I thought that it was okay, but

450
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: it just didn't really move me. And then I got

451
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: a visit from Hollywood producers who came into the Source,

452
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 2: which is rare. We were still basically broke. I mean,

453
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 2: we didn't make any money for most of this time anyway,

454
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: and we were and having someone from Hollywood you feel like, oh,

455
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: someone important is here.

456
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: Wait, Tomson, you're not making money, like in terms of

457
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: like what we see like the billboard charts or whatever.

458
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: How do you know, like what you guys are selling

459
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: in terms of.

460
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: Oh, like magazines, comedy send we we were doing well,

461
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: like with the magazine, was was doing very well on

462
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: the newsstands. I mean it was we we eventually it

463
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: got to the point where we were selling hundreds of

464
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 2: thousands of magazines every month. But throughout most of my

465
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 2: time there, there wasn't a huge profit. I mean we

466
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: were making a small, modest salary. You know. The business

467
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: was was profitable, but it wasn't like making a killing. Granted,

468
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 2: this is before anyone knew anything about startups the internet,

469
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: you know, VC funding. We had none of that. Although

470
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: I although if you want me to, I can tell

471
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: the story when Quincy Jones tried to buy the Source people.

472
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: People may or may not know that before Vibe yes,

473
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: vibe Okay. So in that case, what happened was we

474
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: got contacted by Russell Simmons, who was friends with Quincy.

475
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: He told us that Quincy Jones is interested in talking

476
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: to us along with Time Warner, and Quinn was working

477
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: on a deal with Time Warner. So the four core

478
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: founders of the Source, myself, Dave Mays, James Bernard, and

479
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: Ed Young get on a plane. We go to La

480
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: We go to Quincy Jones's house in Beverly Hills. Were

481
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: sitting there with that beautiful mansion. Starstruck, you know, right away,

482
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: like holy shit, we're in Quincy Jones's house. We walk

483
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: into the room. There is a room of suits. There's

484
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: about six seven guys, white guys in suits. There's a

485
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: woman named Jane Pratt who at that point was an

486
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: editor working for Time Life, and there was Quincy Jones

487
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: and Russell Simmons. So there was like ten people in

488
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: the room. We walk in, four of us. We sit

489
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: and talk. They're interested in the source. I remember it

490
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: was very early, it was ninety one. So we walk in.

491
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: We have a whole meeting where we talk about They

492
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: start ripping apart, not in a mean spirited way, but

493
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: they're they're kind of like, you know, you guys could

494
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 2: do this better. The artwork isn't that great, the photos

495
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: aren't that great, you know, but we love what you're doing.

496
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: You guys are doing it great, but we feel like

497
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 2: we can help you do it better. And and we

498
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: were open to it. We didn't we were so naive,

499
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: we didn't know shit. But we were just in there

500
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: having the meeting and thinking maybe we'll all get rich.

501
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: Who knows what's going to happen, right, And so we

502
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: we have the whole meeting and we end up getting

503
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 2: a very low ball offer from them. It was like insulting.

504
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: It was like ridiculously bad. I forget the number, but

505
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: it was like something like fifty thousand dollars for the

506
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: whole magazine, and it was like digulous. Yeah, it was

507
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: like it was like pathetic, and they wanted us to

508
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: come work for them. And I remember in the in

509
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: the letter where they sent us the offer, they spelled

510
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 2: like several of our name. My name always gets spelled wrong,

511
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: so I was used to it, but they spelled like

512
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: multiple people's names wrong, and it was just very disrespectful

513
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: the whole the whole thing that once we got the letter,

514
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: we felt very respected. So we just we didn't respond

515
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: and we just decided like, we're not going to do it.

516
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: And then they ended up starting Vibe like a few

517
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: months later. And then there was a brief period of

518
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: time when the editor of Vibe was a guy named

519
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 2: Jonathan Van Meter and I'm Jonathan Scheckter, and so there

520
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: was two Jonathan's running these two rap magazines. So anyway,

521
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: that's the story. So that was it. So they wanted

522
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: to buy the source. They ended up not doing it.

523
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: But long story short, what ended up happening. We were

524
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: very concerned. We knew that there was going to be

525
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 2: this other magazine. Vibe comes out. It is beautiful. It

526
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: has Treacher on the cover looking all you know, incredible,

527
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: and the photos and it was all like very fashion

528
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: forward and it was like beautifully designed with amazing photography

529
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: and all that stuff, and we were concerned. But it

530
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: ended up being the best thing that ever happened to us.

531
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: Why because suddenly all these legit advertisers are interested in

532
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: the category, because Time Warner had like Pepsi and Ford

533
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: and Sony and like i mean Sony Electronics and like

534
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: things like that. So we were like getting by on

535
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: just just industry ads basically. But now for the first

536
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: time we had this new market of huge companies that

537
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: are they're interested in rap music, and you know, it

538
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: didn't take long for them to see that we were

539
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: actually the leaders in the in the space, even though

540
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: Vibe you know, had a bigger saw, right, yeah, you know,

541
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: but we were we were the actual like on the street,

542
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: you know, newstand Leaders. So it helped us. It ended

543
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: up helping us. It took a long time for that

544
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: arc to all kind of play out, but in the

545
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: end it was actually a positive for the source that

546
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: they started vibe.

547
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: Okay, So back to you Tupac thing.

548
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So back to Tupac. So the guys come to

549
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: my office and they say, so, we're casting for this

550
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: movie and we're looking at artists and we're looking to you.

551
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,239
Speaker 2: We want to ask you, like, who is you know,

552
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: we want to get a sense of like who's who

553
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: in this rap world. So so they started talking about rappers.

554
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: I don't remember everyone they said, but they said Tupac

555
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: and I said, oh, you mean that guy from the

556
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: Digital Underground. I was like, eh, he's okay, He's not

557
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: that great. I mean, no one really knows who that is,

558
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: you know. And they were like, oh okay, and like

559
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: they we had the meeting. And then it shows how

560
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: much I know because they casted him. It was Juice.

561
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: They were making Juice Simmon Juice. Obviously he you know,

562
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 2: he knocked it out of the park. It was like

563
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: an incredible movie, incredible performance, and it really made him,

564
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: you know, a star, and I remember I was watching

565
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: that movie screening with Russell Simmons, was in the awe.

566
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: It was in a private screening and Russell happened to

567
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: be there, and I remember Russell saying, if they throw

568
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: this motherfucker off the roof, this movie is going to

569
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: be a hit. I don't remember. Remember there's a scene

570
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: where they throw someone off the roof. Yeah, it was

571
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: right exactly. They say, if they throw him off the roof,

572
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: this this movie is going to be a hit. And

573
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: they threw him off the roof. Russell goes insane, He's right,

574
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: the movie's a hit. A little bit later, I go

575
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: to the first how Can I Be Down event in Miami,

576
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: which was a very homemade event. It was like at

577
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: somebody's house.

578
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: What were those events like?

579
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 2: It was kind of like what you'd think it was.

580
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: It was nice. I mean, look, it was a nice house,

581
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: but it was very like bootleg. It was like there

582
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: was it was like a lot, you know that particular one.

583
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: I remember that Tupac was there, Doctor Dre and ed

584
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: Lower from your own TV raps were filming an episode there.

585
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: Puffy was there, a bunch of other artists, and I

586
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: was there with a photographer we interviewed a bunch of people.

587
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: But I remember seeing Tupac and now I started paying

588
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: attention to him because now he's his his star is

589
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: starting to rise. And he always had like a joint

590
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: or a cigarette in his hands. He was drinking, but

591
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: all the girls were all over him, and like he

592
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: he was like a charisma out the you know, off

593
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: over the star the star. Right. So I still don't

594
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: really love his rapping, and I'm still like kind of

595
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: the jury is still out. I didn't really like his records.

596
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: I just didn't really think that like Brenda's Got a

597
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: Baby was kind of boring. I just didn't really love it.

598
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: And so then a little bit later, I remember I

599
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: went to a party in Brooklyn. It was Lord Jamar's

600
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: birthday party that I was invited to. I remember I

601
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: walk into this party in Brooklyn. It was an outdoor

602
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: courtyard and there was a lot of people there. There's

603
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: a lot of beautiful girls there. It was like a

604
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: nice party. I walk in and I'm having a good

605
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: time and I've see like a lot of artists around

606
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: and stuff. And then I noticed this kid in the

607
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: corner and I see Tupac is there. I see Tupac

608
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: is in this party, and this is right when he's

609
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: hanging out with Biggie. Biggie wasn't there, but he was.

610
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: It was during the time when he was, like, you know,

611
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: starting to hang out with Biggie, and that that period

612
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: of time he's in Brooklyn. So he Tupac is there

613
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: and I look in the corner of my eye and

614
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: I see this guy dressed exactly like Tupac, Like literally

615
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: he has the bandana wrapped around a bald head, he

616
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: has his shirt open, he looks exactly he's modeled after

617
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: Tupac and Juice like image, Like he has the exact

618
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: look of Tupac and he's what he's eyeing him. I'm like,

619
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: that's weird, Like, whoa, what's I kind of see it

620
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: happen from Afar and this guy has like a fire

621
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: in his eyes, like he's angry, and he walks across

622
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: the space up to Tupac and basically challenges him to

623
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: a battle in this party. A guy that looks exactly

624
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: like Tupac challenges Tupac to a rhyme battle inside this party.

625
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: And this is a true story. And so then people

626
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: start gathering around, like you could tell there's about to

627
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 2: be something happening, right, And so the guy starts rapping

628
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: and he's, uh, he's not good. He's not great. He's okay,

629
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: but he's not really good. And I'm like it's pretty

630
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: clear pretty early on that he's not really a good rapper,

631
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: but he's trying. He's like, yo, man, I'm gonna fuck

632
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: you up. I'll do this, I'll do that, and uh,

633
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 2: everyone's kind of like I'm looking around, going like, where's

634
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: like somebody to jump in, Like where's like one of

635
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: the brand Nubian guys or you know, where's Buckshot Shorty,

636
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: Like we need somebody here to like represent New York

637
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: because I knew Pak was more of like a California

638
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 2: even though he's from New York, he's a California guy.

639
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: So the guy finishes, and then Pok steps up and

640
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: destroys him, just gives this like virtuoso performance where he's

641
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: like breaking down. He's like, you even look like me.

642
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: You got your band danna like me, you got this

643
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: like me? And then he looks over and he goes,

644
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,479
Speaker 2: I'm gonna even murder you in front of my dude

645
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: from the source, and he like points at me and

646
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: it's like this whole moment and I was like, that

647
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: was my That was the moment when I realized that

648
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: he really actually could rap and that he was like

649
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: actually like a really good MC. You know, I didn't,

650
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: I didn't know. It wasn't until that live you know,

651
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: like impromptu thing that I realized that he's a great rapper.

652
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: And then I kind of changed my take on him.

653
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: It took that experience for me to really get it,

654
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: you know, and then of course that years later, he

655
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, became a huge, even bigger star.

656
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: At this moment, are you guys even remotely concerned about like,

657
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, like there was an era of Deaf Jam

658
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: where it was just like ye old general store and

659
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: then suddenly you go to Deaf Jam and then now

660
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: you got security clearance and all that stuff. And yeah,

661
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: like at any point did the source come to that or.

662
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: You know, we had our share of threats and stuff

663
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: like that. I mean, it wasn't it never thankfully spilled

664
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 2: over into anything major, you know, there was to your point,

665
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: I get it. That's I think that was one of

666
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: Chimo DU's great skills because she did that. That snoop one,

667
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: you know what you're referring to with that snoop is

668
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: that she had this ability to walk into any hood

669
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: in the entire world and people would like him. He

670
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: was a very warm, friendly dude. And you know, I

671
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 2: believe he had like Nigerian roots or he was African,

672
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: but he had like a very friendly demeanor. There was

673
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: something about him. You smiled all the time. He was

674
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: very calm and positive energy. And so that was one

675
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: of our secrets, I guess, was that we could walk

676
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: into a situation where other journalists maybe wouldn't want to.

677
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: And this I did this myself a few times. But

678
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: any anyone, any any of the many writers that worked

679
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: for the Source who got sent on an assignment to

680
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: go to Houston or to go to La You know,

681
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: I once went on a on a on a graffiti

682
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 2: run with KRS Fat Show and the Bronx Tat crew

683
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 2: and I went to like the straight you know, like

684
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: the graffiti like you know, four in the morning, like

685
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: climb and breaking into the into the train yard all

686
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: that shit. Like we all have those moments when we

687
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: basically penetrated what a normal like journalist would do. And

688
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: I think, you know, thank God, like we never had

689
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: any major problems like there was always you know, I

690
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 2: think everyone had an interest in making sure things went well,

691
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: Like there was the artists at the center of whatever

692
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 2: rething we were doing would do everything in their power

693
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: to make sure that the situation was was was was good.

694
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: You know, everyone wants like a good story, everyone wants

695
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: the pictures to look good, everyone wants good reviews, you know,

696
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: So there was we kind of like coasted through on that.

697
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: And again it was like, you know, it was with

698
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: guys like Chi, I think, who were kind of like

699
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: on the front lines of a lot of these going

700
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 2: to like certain hoods, and you know he Chi photographed,

701
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: you know, everyone in every hood and never had a problem.

702
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: Whose idea was it to do the crack issue?

703
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: Great, great question that was. I think Reggie and James

704
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 2: Bernard were the primary drivers behind that one. Okay, I

705
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: know you know this, but you know for Trivia Buff's

706
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: you know Big East ten Crack Commandments is actually from

707
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: a source article and that I did not know that.

708
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: You didn't know that, Okay, didn't.

709
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: The actual was that the cover story or was I'm

710
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: trying my hardest to remember was the counter story? Was

711
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: it a main feature?

712
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: I think it was just a big feature. I don't

713
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: think we put crack on the cover. I think we

714
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: still put a rapper on the cover. But I think

715
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: it was the two times that we did very political

716
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: things that I remember was obviously the LA riots. That

717
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: was a huge, huge, monumental source moment because we covered

718
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: the LA Riots very extensively from the point of view

719
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: of the rioters really. And then the Crack issue was another.

720
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: You know, we devoted a lot of pages to the

721
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: crack epidemic, but not from a oh my god, what's

722
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: going on, but more so from like what's really going on?

723
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: You know. And and one of the articles was the

724
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: ten Crack Commandments. That was literally one of it was

725
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: like a sidebar. It was like it wasn't the main feature.

726
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: The ten Crack Commandments were. What was in that Crack issue? Yes,

727
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: oh my god.

728
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: Yes, if you go back and biggie, it's almost word

729
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: for word. I mean it's not literally word for word,

730
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: but it's like eighty percent word for word. It's like

731
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: you got that from the source.

732
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did not know that. I do remember that

733
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: issue thought like whoa, Like they're going to places that

734
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: no periodical as dared go.

735
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: Should we touch on Biggie real quick, because if anything,

736
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: that's the biggest artist that ever came out of the Source.

737
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: Let's be real, you know, like as far as being

738
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 2: christened an artist because of something that happened in the

739
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: Source magazine, we had a column called Unsigned Hype. Everybody knows,

740
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: you know. The idea was that we would review cassettes

741
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 2: from regular people, regular artists who are trying to make it,

742
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 2: and every month we would pick one cassette. Mattie C,

743
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: who later on, you know, became an R for Loud

744
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: and became a legendary ear, you know, was kind of

745
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: the main point person, and so matt would get We

746
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: literally had like a plastic trash bag filled with cassettes.

747
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: I mean we would get hundreds of cassettes a month.

748
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: I mean maybe two hundred every month. I mean it

749
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: was endless, like every so Mattie's job was one of

750
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: Mattie C's job was to go through all these cassettes.

751
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: Now what really ended up happening because maybe the first

752
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: month he listened to a bunch of them. But as

753
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: you as we all know, when it comes to demos,

754
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: you know, unfortunately most of them are not good. So

755
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: you kind of get burned out very quick. And then

756
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: he started putting in the I remember he added to

757
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: the text of the description puts your best cut first.

758
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: I remember you put that in there, smart because he

759
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: didn't want to have to like sit through like you know,

760
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: search for the search for it. So one day, you know,

761
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: after doing this, and the truth was that that bag

762
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: got bigger and bigger, and we would get like literally

763
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: like five a day, so it would be like one

764
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty a month, okay, and it would be

765
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: like a bag of cassettes, and it was it was,

766
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: you know, no one wants to really go through that,

767
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: but slowly, you know, we would once in a while,

768
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,959
Speaker 2: Oh that one looks Look, that's a that's a weird

769
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: pink cassette. Let me listen to that one. We would

770
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: just randomly to like pick him out. And then one

771
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 2: day he comes into my office and he's like, yo,

772
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: we got one, we got one. Listen to this, and

773
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: he sits down, he gets play and I hear the

774
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: original for eight and a half stepping, which is, uh,

775
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: who was a yeah, blind emotions. I hear the I

776
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: hear the emotions blind Alley and what's up? Source my

777
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: name is Biggie Smalls. I want to say thank you

778
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: for giving me this opportunity. Thank you so much. I

779
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: really respect y'all and I want to thank you. He

780
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: gave us like a nice intro where he like thanked

781
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: us for the opportunity to wrap for us, and then

782
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: the bee kicks in and he starts rapping, and it's amazing.

783
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: It's phenomenal. It's basically like Biggie, you know. It's like

784
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: it's all the personality that we all came to know

785
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 2: and love. So Maddie had gotten this tape not from

786
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: the mail but from mister C. Mister C had gotten

787
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 2: the tape from fifty Grand, who is Biggie's guy, who

788
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 2: gave the tape to mister C. We played the tape

789
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: for Maddie, Maddi gives its shows at us. We're like, oh,

790
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: this is incredible. So we go and we decide he's

791
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: going to be the unsigned hype. We send Chimo du

792
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: to his house. He takes those first pictures of Biggie

793
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: where he's like, you know, like on the street. I

794
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: think he's outside, and we run it and it comes

795
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: out and then this rarely happened, but we got a

796
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 2: call from Puffy. Mattie got a call from Puffy. This

797
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 2: almost never happened. He's like, yo, I'm interested in that.

798
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: This was happening right at the time obviously Joe to

799
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: see Andre Herel and like the whole breakup was happening.

800
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: It was right at that time when like he was

801
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: leaving Andre Herrel. So it was right when bad Boy

802
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: was starting. It was just timing. And so he's like, yo,

803
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: I'm interested in this guy. And so Maddie goes and

804
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: takes the meeting.

805
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: Wait, y'all introduce Yeah.

806
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 2: Mattie c introduced Puffy to Biggie.

807
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: Yes that I did not know.

808
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and to take the meeting, and Maddie go,

809
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: I didn't go. Maddie went to the meeting, and Puffy

810
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: is like, a so yeah, like tell me, tell me

811
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: what let me hear the tape. He plays the tape.

812
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 2: He's like, yo, it is incredible, and he's like, let

813
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: me what does he look like? And Maddie's like trying

814
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: to describe what Biggie looks like, you know, He's like, well,

815
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: he's kind of a big dude, you know. So Biggie

816
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: and Puffy meat and very shortly after that we get

817
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: party and bullshit party and bullshit was like I don't know,

818
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 2: like a month or two, like not long after that,

819
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: like that record got made and obviously we're like going

820
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: insane loving it. And then you know, long story short.

821
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: I got to meet Biggie a couple of times. He

822
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: came to the office. He was I remember one particular

823
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: time we went to the staircase to smoke weed. He

824
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: we smoke a blunt about six people. Biggie's there and he's, uh,

825
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: he's he's at this point, he is still unsure and

826
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: this is depicted in all of the documentaries and the

827
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 2: movies that have been made. When remember he still wanted

828
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: to be a drug dealer. He didn't really want to

829
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: be a rap star. So right when that moment was happening,

830
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 2: that was like real, real time I saw and he

831
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: didn't say drug dealer, but he's sitting there going, man,

832
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: I got shit going on. I don't know if I

833
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: have time for this shit. Yeah, He's like, I don't

834
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: have time for this ship. Man, I'm doing well, Like

835
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: I don't really have time for this shit, and like

836
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: the rest of us are trying to encourage him, like yo, man,

837
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: like this is a real opportunity, like you should really

838
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: do this party and bullshit was already out, so I didn't.

839
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: I thought it was like a it was already a

840
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: done deal, like he was going to be huge, but

841
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: he didn't really see it that.

842
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: Way yet, right. And then.

843
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: Not long after I think I've told you this story before,

844
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: I remember sitting on the step near watching the Square

845
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: park and that's when I heard the demo from the

846
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: night before of Juicy and Maddie hits play and I

847
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: hear you know, im too may come out of the speakers,

848
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: and then I hear Biggie you know, doing these rhymes

849
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: and then he says smiles every time my face is

850
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: open the source, and I'm like over the moon, like

851
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: this is amazing, Right, And that was it. And then

852
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, then I got a piece of mateo and

853
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: all that other stuff, and a star is born. Star

854
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: is born.

855
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna ask you the question, man, go ahead.

856
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: So part two of that story I told of me

857
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: leaving Philly get on a train at six in the

858
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: morning just to just to come to the West Village,

859
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: just so I can be the first person to read

860
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: what my rating was, you know, the reasonable all.

861
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 3: The time, you have to say, this is very important.

862
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 3: Don't know how much you listen to the show. We

863
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: talk about the roots and the microphones all the time.

864
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 3: This big moment.

865
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: I've heard a little bit. Yeah, I've heard a little

866
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: bit of it.

867
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: And the thing was, you know, I was elated. I

868
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: was nervous because you know, we were so left the

869
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: center and taking a risk on this new, unchartered live

870
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: instrumentation territory thing. But yeah, yeah we got we got

871
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: the leave review, we got four mics. I'm happy. I

872
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: want to go up and say, thinking I would have

873
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: been the second person to thank you guys for my

874
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: four mikes, but I can't do that right now because

875
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: I don't know that all hell is breaking.

876
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: Loose at the exact same moment. There's a crisis happening

877
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: at the side.

878
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: Literally. So the story that I got was that your partner,

879
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: Dave Mays took it upon himself to insert a three

880
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: and a half page feature on one of his acts

881
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: from Boston without the knowledge of you guys knowing it. Basically,

882
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: as I'm discovering my four mics in the magazine, you

883
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: guys are also subsequently discovering, Hey, there's an article here

884
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: about Almighty RSO. And this is when I first heard

885
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: the term called conflict of interest. You know, first I

886
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: was like, well, what's that people will promote all the

887
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: time and nepotism they're and you know, Amy and Ursula

888
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: are trying to explain to me, the newbie of the industry,

889
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: like there's certain rules that you follow, and there's conflict

890
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: of interest, and there's you know, talking to your co

891
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: workers and that sort of thing. And of course the

892
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: way that this shit spread like wildfire, because the thing

893
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: is like Amy is very connected to every publicist, every

894
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: data you know, and there's no such thing as a

895
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: phone thread or you know, social media whatever. So it's

896
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: like the second we get back, it was like they

897
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: were all on like a war council, Like, yo, the

898
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: source is over. As they're all walking away. What happened

899
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: that morning in October of ninety four? How did you

900
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: find out that you guys have been compromised by one

901
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: of your own and the subsequent aftermath of that. I

902
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: never knew what happened on the inside of those walls

903
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: that morning, And of course I get the announcement that night.

904
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 1: The source as I knew it is no more. I mean,

905
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 1: and so we.

906
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 2: Saw each other around that time. If you remember, I

907
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: went to the studio and I saw I met with you.

908
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 2: But anyway to get to answer your question, yes, just unrelated.

909
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: I happened to see you shortly after that happened. But

910
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: you're right, the way you framed it is exactly correct.

911
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: We every month would have a an editorial sort of

912
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 2: a layout, not just editorial, but the whole sort of

913
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 2: map of the whole magazine. Dave and I would it

914
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: would primarily just him and I would sit in the

915
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: room and we'd have, Okay, this month's issue, how many

916
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: how many ads did he get? How much editorial do

917
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: we have? And like where are these things come together?

918
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: There would be a physical sheet of paper, but that

919
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 2: we would map out the whole issue.

920
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: You have to tetris the format of Okay, I get it.

921
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 2: The whole magazine right, So it's like we have, Okay,

922
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: here's the cover feature, here's the secondary feature, here's the

923
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: record reviews, here's the fashion shoot this month, here's this whatever.

924
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: So those pages were marked as ads, so I thought

925
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: they were ads. I didn't even think twice about it.

926
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 2: We often had ads that were Sometimes people would buy

927
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 2: like a two page spread ad that was like a

928
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 2: normal thing. So I just assumed that that's what it was.

929
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 2: So we finished the issue. As you said, I had

930
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: red Man on the cover, and I get a call,

931
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 2: I think from James Bernard, who's, you know, my partner

932
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: on the editorial side and also a co owner of

933
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: the magazine. Yo, something really fucked up happened.

934
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: Man.

935
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: You got to come in right now. You got to

936
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: see this. I'm like, what, just come here, come here

937
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: and see. So I come in and it's the pages

938
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: that we thought were ads were actually a whole article

939
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 2: about this group that Dave had been working with separate

940
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 2: from the magazine. He was managing them basically, but you know,

941
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: I don't know if that was his official title, but

942
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: that was basically what he was doing. He was getting

943
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: them deals, he was cultivating them and trying to make

944
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 2: them into stars, and they wanted to jump ahead and

945
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 2: get in this. You know, we were approaching it the

946
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 2: same way we approached every artist in that an unfold.

947
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 2: Let's you know, we got hundreds of artists every month, like,

948
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: let's figure this out whatever. Instead, this thing happened, and

949
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 2: it was a very big violation of our ethics. It

950
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: was inside the magazine, our friendship. You know. I felt

951
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 2: very offended by that act because it was like, you know,

952
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 2: taking away I was the editor in chief. I was

953
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 2: in charge of every article. Like I didn't write every article,

954
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: but I made sure I knew about every article that

955
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: was going in. And this was the first time that

956
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 2: I didn't, So it was very shocking.

957
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: Everyone has a code. I didn't. I understand that the

958
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: public out there.

959
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: Would they even even know the difference you're saying, wow.

960
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: I would have not known the difference that I know.

961
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: I know, Okay, So here's what really happened. If you

962
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: want to know the sequence of events. My inclination, to

963
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 2: be quite honest with you, was the way I always am,

964
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 2: which is to handle this privately. I did not want

965
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 2: to go public with this information. My instinct, even though

966
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 2: it was really messed up and I was very angry,

967
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: I would have handled it privately. But something happened that

968
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 2: prevented me from doing that. What happened was James Bernard

969
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: sent out a letter addressed to Dave using something using

970
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 2: a fax machine. We used to have a fax newsletter

971
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 2: called The Weekly Word, and it was pre internet, and

972
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: what it was was we had the facts number of

973
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: literally everyone in the rap industry, radio records exit, so

974
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 2: we would send out we would send out this a

975
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 2: weekly and Minya actually Minya Oh miss Info, her first

976
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: job for us as far as a full time job

977
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: was that newsletter. She would actually come in once a

978
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: week and she would say, what are the biggest stories,

979
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 2: and we talk and then she'd go and type up

980
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: that one page sort of like summary. It was kind

981
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: of like a news headlines thing, like this is what's happening,

982
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 2: so that people on rap shows would be like, this

983
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: is from the source. We found out that so and

984
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: so is happening. So we had this platform that was

985
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 2: still very you know, kind of like a really industry

986
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: oriented thing, but.

987
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,439
Speaker 1: Right what initially was it.

988
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: Was still along the lines of initial and we even

989
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: had one point when we try to do industry magazine,

990
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 2: separate from the source very quick, very briefly. But anyway,

991
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 2: so we had this platform. So this crisis happens, Dave

992
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 2: does this thing, I'm very angry, everyone's angry. At this point,

993
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 2: we had a pretty big staff. Our editorial side was

994
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 2: probably about ten or twelve people, and the business side

995
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: was probably another ten or twelve people. We probably had

996
00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 2: twenty five people working there this time, and Jane James

997
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 2: does something that I thought was a bad idea. I

998
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: still think it was a bad idea. He goes and

999
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: he writes this letter to Dave, and he puts it

1000
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: through that weekly word fax machine, so that in one minute,

1001
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 2: the entire rap industry knows, Dave, how could you do this? Like,

1002
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: you know, you put this article about these guys. We

1003
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with it, We knew nothing about it.

1004
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: Da da da da, and all hell breaks loose. I mean,

1005
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: it's like everyone in the industry was calling me. I

1006
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: got the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the

1007
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 2: Village Voice, like all these people, media reporters, you know,

1008
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: like what happened?

1009
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:39,320
Speaker 1: Like this?

1010
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: It's kind of like it's two things. It's a hip

1011
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: hop story, it's also a media story. It's a story

1012
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 2: about turmoil, about about media ethics as you as you

1013
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 2: alluded to, you know, it's it's about all of these things.

1014
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 2: And now that James has unfortunately made it public, which

1015
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: again and I would never have done that. I would

1016
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 2: have handled it privately because that was what my instinct

1017
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 2: was telling me. But now that can no longer be done.

1018
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: Now everyone knows that this thing happened, So what's going

1019
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 2: to happen next. It's a very tough moment for me

1020
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: and for everyone around, you know, at those days, at

1021
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: that time, what really happened was all of the editorial

1022
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: staff had a meeting. I think I went to one

1023
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 2: of the meetings, but then I think there was another

1024
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 2: meeting without me because I was more like.

1025
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:34,919
Speaker 1: Did you guys have an HR at all?

1026
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: No? I mean we had, yeah, we did have somebody,

1027
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 2: but it was it wasn't really a real HR. It

1028
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: was you know, it was a very you know, we were.

1029
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: Like maze in the office as you guys are, Like

1030
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: there was Caesar style like it was heaving like that.

1031
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 2: There was like a giant split and like half the

1032
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 2: company went one way and half the company went the

1033
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: other way. And when it came down to it, I

1034
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 2: had to make a very difficult decision, which was given

1035
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: that now this information was out there. On top of it,

1036
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: the entire editorial staff had voluntarily left their jobs. So

1037
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 2: now that means there was other people there. There was

1038
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: a guy named Rob Marriott, Carter, Harris Kieranameyo, Chris Calloway

1039
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: was art director, Chimo dou Maddie c. There's a whole

1040
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 2: lot of people, Reggie, Dennis, all of them had said,

1041
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: you know what, we're not even going to work here

1042
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 2: anymore because Dave needs to go. And I'm like, I

1043
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 2: hear you, but he's like he owns a big chunk

1044
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: of this magazine. Dude, Like, I mean, you know, what

1045
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: are we going to do about it? And they were like,

1046
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 2: that's your problem, you figure that out, you know kind

1047
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 2: of thing. So I was really ico.

1048
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: So they put the pressure on you to well, you

1049
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: don't have a staff or anything to vote him mount

1050
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: or anything, do you exactly.

1051
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: I was left in a very isolated position because the

1052
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: staff had already decided we're done, fuck this, we don't

1053
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: care about you know, We're not going to work in

1054
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 2: a place that does this. And I agreed with them.

1055
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 2: I understood their anger. I was angry too, But also

1056
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 2: I was a co owner, as was James and Ed Young.

1057
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 2: We were all co owners, so we I had two

1058
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: hats on. I had my editorial you know hat, which

1059
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 2: was and my friendship with him after all these years,

1060
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 2: like how could you do this? And I don't think

1061
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 2: Dave even realized, like how serious, like what he had done, Like,

1062
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: I don't think he even knew the effect. He definitely

1063
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 2: did not anticipate the reaction. And I was left in

1064
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: a very difficult position. And what do I do? So

1065
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: after thinking about it for quite a long time, a

1066
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 2: few weeks, you know, a couple of very stressful weeks,

1067
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 2: I decided I want to get bought out. I'm done.

1068
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: It was hard decision, but once I made it, I

1069
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 2: made it, and I was like, Okay, I'm not going

1070
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 2: to be able to go back to work and pretend

1071
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 2: everything's okay. I'm going to have to If I were

1072
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 2: to go back to work, I'd have to hire a

1073
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 2: bunch of new people. I'd have to still work under

1074
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 2: this now, you know, potentially corrupted, you know, structure now

1075
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 2: and this and that. And I just made the decision

1076
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: I wanted to get bought out. It took a long

1077
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: time for that deal to get done. It took maybe

1078
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: a year for that whole process to unfold. I remember

1079
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 2: seeing you around the time that I made this decision,

1080
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 2: and you were in a studio somewhere. Do you remember

1081
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: this or you.

1082
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: May probably in battery studios. I think you were.

1083
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: It was battery yes, yes, correct, And I remember, I

1084
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: can't remember why I was sitting with you, but I

1085
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: went up in the studio and you and I think

1086
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: your engineer were very curious, as was everybody, and I

1087
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: got it. I understood. You were like what happened? Like, dude,

1088
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: what happened? And I probably told some version of the

1089
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: same story, you know, And.

1090
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the source was my illmatic you know what I mean, Like, yeah,

1091
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: it was it.

1092
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, it's not the way that I

1093
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 2: would want it, would have wanted to leave the source.

1094
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: But if I'm being totally honest, you know, as I

1095
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: think back on those years, I had already begun to

1096
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: feel a sense that I wanted to maybe move on.

1097
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 2: You know. It wasn't necessarily definitely not under that circumstance.

1098
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: But there was a period of time about a year

1099
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: before that, when I did actually take like a two

1100
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 2: month hiatus, and I went to Philly and tried to

1101
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 2: write other stuff. I was interested in writing screenplays and

1102
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 2: other things, so I went and pursued that for a while.

1103
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: Was there ever a thought that you guys would just

1104
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: collectively start another magazine?

1105
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 2: That was a thought, you know. James and Reggie ended

1106
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: up starting XXL about like a few months after that,

1107
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: and then they lasted about a month and then they

1108
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: they didn't they they had a falling out with that publisher.

1109
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 2: And then I actually am the one that recommended Elliott

1110
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: Wilson for the job, because those the people from Harris

1111
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 2: Publications who were also friends of acquaintances or friends of mine,

1112
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 2: were like, hey, man, do you want to come they

1113
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: I was offered the job to go run XXL, and

1114
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: I didn't want to do it, but I offered. I

1115
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 2: proposed that Elliott Wilson would be the best candidate, and

1116
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: he ended up being a great, a great person to

1117
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 2: do it, obviously, But yeah, that was it, man. I

1118
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 2: decided to get bought out again. I wasn't, you know,

1119
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 2: I didn't anticipate that would happen, but you know, it

1120
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 2: was that. That's what happened, and I accepted that and

1121
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 2: we eventually reached the deal for a small seven figure

1122
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 2: sum and that was it.

1123
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: Were you part of the first? Never spoken about but

1124
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: the first source awards correct.

1125
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: I was part of the first, but not the second.

1126
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 2: So I was there for the first.

1127
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: First. The first was a little crazy too, Yeah, first

1128
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: was insane.

1129
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 2: Also, people don't. Yes, people, the first was it was

1130
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: late ninety three.

1131
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: Were you there from that Tupac Tribe moment?

1132
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 2: Yes, I was there for that. I was that was

1133
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: that I think it was where what theater was that

1134
01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 2: in it?

1135
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: That Madison Square Garden right right, that's right. I went

1136
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: there as a spectator. And yeah, I think I've told

1137
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: this story before, like there wasn't a Tupac Tribe thing.

1138
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: What I believe happened was that as tribe was coming

1139
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: up to accept their award for Midnight Marauders, right, someone

1140
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: accidentally queued up Tupac song. Yeah, and he did whatever.

1141
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck song whatever. But from the

1142
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: audience point of view, it looked and you know, this

1143
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: is like after the legend of the Karas one PM

1144
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: dawn situation or whatever, which I still don't I've heard

1145
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: variations of that story that it wasn't as you know,

1146
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: it's like they were both booked on the show. I

1147
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: don't know, but it seemed like Tupac was just like, yo,

1148
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: fuck that, and the music came on cue. It was

1149
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: like Bishop had come to life and then you know,

1150
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: the Zoo Nations words and Noah. But at the time

1151
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: in the audience. I thought someone was about the pop

1152
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: off between you know, Tupac and Tribe, but it wasn't that.

1153
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that whole that You're right, that whole show was

1154
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 2: very chaotic. We didn't know what we were doing. Again.

1155
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 2: We were like I think I had written the scripts

1156
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: for what they were saying, and like I remember like

1157
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 2: like as soon as the thing started, I realized they

1158
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: were all too wordy. Like it wasn't until the real show.

1159
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 2: It wasn't until the show actually begun and the audience

1160
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 2: was there that I realized that all the writing I

1161
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 2: had done was like three x too long. Like I was,

1162
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, I was made. I was like I messed

1163
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: up and like and up there is like like cool

1164
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 2: Hirk is trying to like get through like some sentences

1165
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 2: that I wrote, and it gets all frustrated and like,

1166
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 2: you know, like there was I just remember being very uncomfortable.

1167
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 2: But it wasn't quite as extremely bad as the next one,

1168
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 2: but it was a similar, similar, very chaotic event.

1169
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: What were your thoughts of nineteen ninety five. I've probably

1170
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: going on record stating that kind of and joking, but

1171
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: as the years go by, sort of serious where if

1172
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 1: I were to mark the time where the sand in

1173
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: the yeah, where I felt the hip hop that I

1174
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: once loved was now like out of my reach, even

1175
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: though you know, ninety five was still a dope ass

1176
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: year and you know, Lord knows I thrived. But first

1177
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: of all, were you there at all? Without me knowing?

1178
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: At that point? I was. It was really right in

1179
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 2: the aftermath of this whole breakup that was going on,

1180
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 2: I remember getting a zillion phone calls. I was not there,

1181
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: but I got a million phone calls from people updates

1182
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,439
Speaker 2: for telling me all the crazy stuff and they fight,

1183
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: they're fighting, yeah, all that stuff. But yeah, I wasn't

1184
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 2: there for that, but yeah, it was. It was. I

1185
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 2: remember thinking, you know, not being super surprised because of

1186
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 2: knowing how bad the first one was that it was

1187
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 2: kind of like more of the same, not how bad,

1188
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 2: but how chaotic it was. And yeah, I you know,

1189
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 2: it wasn't that much of a shock. But I definitely

1190
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 2: remember like reacting to that as I also remember from

1191
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 2: the PM down incident too. I wasn't there for you there, no,

1192
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 2: but I was very close with KRS. I was like,

1193
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: KRS was kind of my hero and he still is.

1194
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 2: KRS was you know, my most important rapper in my life.

1195
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 2: He's the guy that I always looked up to, and

1196
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 2: so I interviewed him, actually twenty four hours later after

1197
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 2: that incident. I was the first person to interview KRS,

1198
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 2: and I wrote a story that became a cover story

1199
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 2: where he was on fire. He was going after everybody.

1200
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: He was going after X Clan, he was going after

1201
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 2: Core Righteous teachers, he was going after you know, of

1202
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 2: course PM down. He went after everybody. And he had

1203
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 2: these he had like a stack of beefs and he

1204
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 2: just was like just one after the next, after the next.

1205
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean.

1206
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 2: That was when KRS was the king of rap. I

1207
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 2: mean he was definitely the all of hip hop embody

1208
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: in one person.

1209
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: Before I wrap and one, I really want to think

1210
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 1: you're being super generous. I love the fact that Bill,

1211
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: you don't remind me that we're almost getting into Jimmy

1212
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: jam territory.

1213
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, like, this is like a ten parter. Now,

1214
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 3: this is like the you know, the Almanac of the

1215
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 3: source history.

1216
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 1: I'm happy to dude, I purposely did not look at

1217
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: the clock one and I'm shocked at even Jake Steve

1218
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: around the city. Wait, I'm sorry, I'm seeing I'm at

1219
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:32,439
Speaker 1: work right now.

1220
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 4: I should have known that this was gonna go. Like

1221
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 4: Steve is walking to work. They're like, it's me on

1222
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 4: the floor. This, this is this is an act of

1223
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 4: rebellion I'm doing right now.

1224
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: It's perfect, It's perfect source material. Dog, I've been waiting

1225
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: for this conversation for at least thirty years. YO, like

1226
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: this all important.

1227
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: I got two guys here in my office with me.

1228
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 2: They've been patient the whole time. To everyone, For those

1229
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 2: who are still awake and still listening, I thank you.

1230
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: Trust me, there's an audience for this. Before I wrap, though,

1231
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: just in quick retrospect, if you can name like three

1232
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: magic moments that we probably don't know about. I don't

1233
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: know if you're there for the sequencing of a classic album,

1234
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: or you were there to witness an incredible show, or

1235
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: just in your prime source memories.

1236
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 2: I'll come up with at least one, which is we're

1237
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 2: talking about KRS and I remember this was a really

1238
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 2: important moment for me. Is while we were still at

1239
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: Harvard and the Source was born, but it was still

1240
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 2: in its very early stages, and I had got a

1241
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 2: call from Layla Turkin. Yes, who had the one of

1242
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 2: the publicity companies you mentioned earlier, and she was like, hey,

1243
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 2: you know, is there any chance that you could help

1244
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 2: KRS come to Harvard? And I was like, of course,

1245
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 2: Like I would want nothing in my entire life than

1246
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 2: to do that, And that incident became something I think

1247
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 2: about as a pivotal moment in my life. Basically, I

1248
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 2: went to the Black Student Organization of Harvard and tried

1249
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 2: to get them to endorse a keros One speaking engagement.

1250
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 2: This is the under the undergraduate Black students of Harvard.

1251
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 2: And I had a friend who was part of that committee.

1252
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,920
Speaker 2: So he brought me in and I presented the opportunity.

1253
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, there's at that point, the

1254
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 2: source had maybe like a year under its belt or something.

1255
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 2: It had about like eight issues or something like that,

1256
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 2: and I said, you know, I said, I have a

1257
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 2: chance to bring this. You know, everyone knew who KRS was.

1258
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 2: This the leader of hip hop, the most important artist.

1259
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 2: He's going to come to Harvard. And they were like, okay, okay,

1260
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 2: this sounds great. We'll get back to you. And then

1261
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 2: they talked about it, and the guy got back to

1262
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 2: me and he said, hey, man, I got bad news.

1263
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 2: They're not going to do it. I'm like what they said, Yeah,

1264
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 2: they're worried about violence and getting a bad name on

1265
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 2: the you know, for the student organization. And I'm like,

1266
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 2: this was this was during the time when you know,

1267
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 2: everybody thought if you have a rapper, it means like

1268
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 2: you're going to get violence and all the you know,

1269
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 2: it was back in the stereotype of you know, some

1270
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 2: people that maybe there's some truth to it, but they

1271
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 2: didn't want to do it. So I'm like, what am

1272
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 2: I going to do? And so I meet somebody who says, oh, no,

1273
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 2: there's another organization you can go to. It's the Kennedy

1274
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 2: School of Government, which is one of Harvard's graduate schools,

1275
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 2: and they have a black student organization, which this other

1276
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,439
Speaker 2: friend of mine was part of. So he's like, come

1277
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 2: into that one. So I come into that one and

1278
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 2: they said, yes, we'll do it. So the night happens,

1279
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 2: they set up the event. It is packed, there's like

1280
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: every seat is full, it is absence is probably like

1281
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 2: one thousand, two thousand people there and what is this

1282
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:57,120
Speaker 2: I believe this is nineteen eighty nine and yup, yup,

1283
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 2: and they have like placards for everyone on the panel.

1284
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 2: And there's a whole panel and literally it's Cornell West,

1285
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 2: Henry Lewis Gates, it's every like black intellectual professor like

1286
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 2: legend lined up on the stage and there's a slot

1287
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 2: for KRS. And he's not there. He's missing. The entire

1288
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 2: room is filled, all the other people are on stage,

1289
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 2: and KRS is missing, and I am the only link

1290
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,879
Speaker 2: to KRS. So you can imagine how I was feeling

1291
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 2: stress level through the roof. And this is the days

1292
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 2: before the internet, before cell phones. Okay, so I basically

1293
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 2: was stressing my ass off. Okay, I had put this

1294
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:42,719
Speaker 2: whole thing together. I was, you know, the main reason

1295
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 2: they were doing this. And he's not even there. So

1296
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 2: I'm standing in front of this building and like the

1297
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 2: time comes that the start time comes, he's not there.

1298
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 2: Fifteen minutes, thirty minutes, forty five minutes, I'm like, I

1299
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 2: am dead and never like I have to like what's

1300
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 2: going to happen. And then after like fifty minutes, I

1301
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 2: look in the distance and I see a cluster of

1302
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 2: people and I realize that's him. It's like the pied Piper,

1303
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 2: like he's walking through the streets and all these kids

1304
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 2: are following him and it's like krs KRS. And he

1305
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 2: walks in and I'm like, Chris, what's up man? Where

1306
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 2: were you? He's like, what I got on the plane.

1307
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 2: I'm here now, Like, what's the big deal. It's all good,

1308
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 2: you know. I'm like, no, you don't understand, Like there's

1309
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 2: a crowd, come on right now, right now. So he says, here,

1310
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 2: take this and he hands me, and this shows you

1311
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 2: the time period a giant VHS video recorder, like with

1312
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 2: literally a VHS popped in like over the shoulder, giant,

1313
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 2: heavy ass camera. So he hands it to me. What

1314
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 2: because he's like, hey, tape me, tape me, tape this

1315
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 2: for me, please. He hands it to me. We walk

1316
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 2: into the building. The event has already been now forty

1317
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 2: five minutes underway, but they get the first glimpse of RS,

1318
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 2: and the whole crowd just roar standing ovation. It was

1319
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 2: almost like better because he was late. It made it

1320
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 2: even more impactful. He gets up there and he gives

1321
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 2: this amazing like monologue about hip hop and black history

1322
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:18,520
Speaker 2: and America and politics and everything.

1323
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 1: Does this wind up being the interstitials that will wind

1324
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: up on edutainment?

1325
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 2: No, but it was similar timeframe, so I'm sure it

1326
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 2: was what was on his mind around that time. Okay.

1327
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 2: And then and then what happens is he gives this

1328
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,599
Speaker 2: amazing speech, and then there's some questions and a little

1329
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 2: back and forth and it's going very well. And then

1330
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 2: a black woman in the crowd stands up and asks

1331
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 2: the question, and she says, we got two white boys

1332
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 2: on campus running a rap magazine. We're not happy about that.

1333
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 2: I want to know what you think about that. And

1334
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 2: it was like this very it was like, after all

1335
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 2: this shit happened, now, okay, this like pivotal moment in

1336
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 2: my life. Man. I had already devoted my life. I

1337
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,640
Speaker 2: had already, as we told in this story, been already

1338
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:12,720
Speaker 2: devoted to hip hop for years. And KRS looks at

1339
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 2: me and he knows me, you know, And he looks

1340
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:17,759
Speaker 2: at the crowd, he looks at the girl and he says,

1341
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 2: I know what you're talking about. He's like, I know

1342
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 2: those guys, and I have a question for you. Instead

1343
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 2: of asking why are they doing it? Why don't you

1344
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 2: ask why aren't I doing it? Those guys work their

1345
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 2: ass off. I know those guys. They love hip hop,

1346
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 2: They work their ass off. Every day, you know, to

1347
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:43,719
Speaker 2: do this magazine and I beg you please outdo them. Please,

1348
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 2: if you can do a better job, I beg you,

1349
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 2: please do a better job. We need more voices, we

1350
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 2: need more magazines, we need more hip hop in the world,

1351
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 2: you know. And it was like this pivotal moment for me,

1352
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,639
Speaker 2: and it validated what we have been doing. It gave

1353
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:04,680
Speaker 2: me the confidence to move on, to keep going. And

1354
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 2: then later after the whole event had done, I was

1355
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 2: sitting alone with KRS in like a diner in Harvard Square,

1356
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:15,760
Speaker 2: and again the Source was very young, we were all

1357
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 2: still very new, and I said to him, man, listen, like,

1358
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 2: you know how much it meant to me that you

1359
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 2: said those things and that you know you're here and

1360
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:26,360
Speaker 2: that kind of And then I said, would you be

1361
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 2: willing to like be our spokesperson? And there was a

1362
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 2: period of time when he agreed, and he actually did.

1363
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 2: He became almost like the spokesperson for the Source. That

1364
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 2: was only for like a period, a short period, but

1365
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,720
Speaker 2: that whole experience obviously had a huge impact on the

1366
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 2: rest of my career.

1367
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: Are there any retrospect regrets in terms of your contributions

1368
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:53,839
Speaker 1: to the Source that you wish you could have corrected

1369
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 1: I don't know the TLC cover.

1370
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: Or that's a good one.

1371
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I had no problem with that. But I'm

1372
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 1: just saying like it just in general, like is there

1373
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 1: like ah, man, I wish I did a soul's a

1374
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: mischief issue before I left or it, like, are there

1375
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 1: any like.

1376
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's the problem with the TLC cover

1377
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 2: was that they were green. Their skin was green because

1378
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: it was not printing job. That was the problem. The

1379
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 2: printer did a terrible job and for some reason their

1380
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:27,280
Speaker 2: skin was like green. But the real reason there was

1381
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 2: obviously that was the first R and B group that

1382
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 2: we put on the cover, so we did get a

1383
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 2: lot of flat But I don't regret that. I don't

1384
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 2: regret that because that was you know, that was how

1385
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 2: hip hop was moving at the time, and it was

1386
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 2: a normal evolution, you know. Like I guess, as I

1387
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:43,200
Speaker 2: alluded to earlier, you know, I do wish that the

1388
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:46,680
Speaker 2: ending had been more graceful or more you know, positive.

1389
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: And what is your status with Maze now today? Like spoken,

1390
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: are you civil?

1391
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 2: We're you're civil? We're civil. We've spoken a few times.

1392
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 2: He made he made an effort in recent years to

1393
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:06,480
Speaker 2: be more I think appropriate in terms of his perspective

1394
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 2: on things. I think he kind of came around and

1395
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 2: realized that, you know, mistakes have been made, and he

1396
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 2: was kind of more conciliatory in recent years than he

1397
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 2: had been in the past. But obviously, and we know

1398
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 2: if we're not going to get into it all today,

1399
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 2: but I've gone on to do a lot of other

1400
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 2: things in the music.

1401
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 1: And that's all good.

1402
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 2: Another time we can talk about it as a.

1403
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 1: Nine fault man. I'm sorry. I was going to go

1404
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 1: dive right in.

1405
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, but but I mean, you know, real quick,

1406
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 2: I do music for businesses now. I have a company

1407
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 2: called Playback Prodigy, which is a background music for businesses.

1408
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 2: We have thousands of I mean hundreds and even over

1409
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:49,280
Speaker 2: a thousand locations around the world. So but anyway, I

1410
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 2: work with a ton of DJs.

1411
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 1: You technically mean when I hear background music in the

1412
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 1: supermarket or that sort of thing, or like.

1413
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 2: Mostly in hospitality places. So we do the music for

1414
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 2: WIN resorts, we do the music for MGM resorts, We

1415
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:07,280
Speaker 2: do the music for SOHO House.

1416
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:09,440
Speaker 1: So when I check in to a hotel.

1417
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 2: When you're in a hotel, we do need for tons

1418
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 2: of fancy.

1419
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: The soundtrack that I hear. Yeah, I'm secretly obsessed with

1420
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 1: that world, man, Like I figured you'd be.

1421
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 2: Curious about that. Yeah, because it's it's it's a great

1422
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,800
Speaker 2: perspective on like music, and it forces me to stay

1423
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 2: current and and and also to be able to go

1424
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:31,759
Speaker 2: back because there's some people that want yacht rock and soul,

1425
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 2: and some people want you know, cutting edge hip hop,

1426
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 2: and some people want pop, and some people want house

1427
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 2: music and whatever it is.

1428
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 1: So you're a professional curation, correct music curator. Is there

1429
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 1: licensing that has to happen with that or is it

1430
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 1: just like you this restaurant says, hey, I need that

1431
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 1: music for three hours in a loop. And you guys know.

1432
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 2: We like we we we pay all of the appropriate agencies.

1433
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 2: You know, we pay the p R O, s ASCAP, E,

1434
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 2: M I C. Sack. You know, we pay we pay

1435
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,759
Speaker 2: everybody that we have to pay to license the music.

1436
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 2: That's one of our expenses, you know, running this business.

1437
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 2: But uh, for the most part, it's you know, it's

1438
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 2: it's hardware, software content. So we do the whole thing.

1439
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 2: But in the end, it's about having good taste in

1440
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,280
Speaker 2: music and picking what's appropriate for seeing a certain setting.

1441
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:21,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know that one could actually monetize off that

1442
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 1: because the amount of restaurants that I frequent that are

1443
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 1: just like a mere. Can you send me one of

1444
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 1: your playlists that uh, yeah, I hear about so much

1445
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 1: and I'll be like, yeah, sure, and I'll make them

1446
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 1: a five hour playlist and they'll be playing it. I

1447
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:37,719
Speaker 1: didn't realize that that is a business.

1448
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been doing this for about eight years, eight

1449
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 2: and nine. I can get a job with you, please.

1450
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 2: I would love I would love nothing more than be

1451
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 2: able to say playlist by a mere quest love Thompson.

1452
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 2: That would be our greatest you know, feature ever if

1453
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 2: we're able to say that. But yeah, for sure, man.

1454
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 2: We It's kind of like being a DJ behind the curtain.

1455
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 2: It's like being It's like w'sard of Oz, Like you

1456
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 2: get to be the DJ, but no one sees you.

1457
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 2: You know, You're like, it's kind of fun.

1458
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, now I'm excited about that. You think I'm joking.

1459
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 1: I'm not. I love all I love is curating. Now

1460
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 1: do you open that door? I have so many more

1461
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 1: questions about that, but I technically have to get to

1462
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 1: work right now. Okay, the longest four hour lunch break

1463
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:21,639
Speaker 1: of it, but very much well worth epic. I knew

1464
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:23,640
Speaker 1: it was going to be epic. Now that I'm in

1465
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 1: the space that I'm in, I'm really hoping that perhaps

1466
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 1: you two can come to some sort of agreement in

1467
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 1: terms of at least setting the legacy right. You know,

1468
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 1: there's the time where, yes, everything that you've described, I

1469
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:42,600
Speaker 1: would love to see this told mad Men's style. I

1470
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 1: believe that this is almost a six season episodic series

1471
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 1: that you've told and certain the stuff you didn't tell

1472
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:55,720
Speaker 1: me was even you know, worth it. But no, just

1473
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: in general, man, I want to thank you for your

1474
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:04,479
Speaker 1: contribution to that magazine, and you know that magazine especially

1475
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 1: being a pivotal moment in my life in terms of

1476
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do for a living and something

1477
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: to look forward to and to aspire to be. And

1478
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 1: the shit literally has me here right now interviewing you, Man,

1479
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for that, and that's kind

1480
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,600
Speaker 1: of why this was a lengthy interview and not just

1481
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:26,240
Speaker 1: a forty five minutes Oh tell me where you started? Like, thanks, n.

1482
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 2: I'm great, thank you. I appreciate all you guys for

1483
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 2: having me on and also in particular a mirror for

1484
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 2: representing you know what I think Philly does represent, which

1485
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 2: is a love of music, a knowledge of music, a

1486
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,559
Speaker 2: respect for music. You know, like growing up in Philly,

1487
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 2: we that's what's in our It's in the water, as

1488
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:48,599
Speaker 2: we say, w ar t e er water.

1489
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 1: Yes, it's in the water.

1490
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,559
Speaker 2: Basically, you know, we love music in Philly. And if

1491
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 2: you go back to Philly today, we're still playing the classics.

1492
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 2: You know, you walk into store that you're here like

1493
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 2: Luther Vandross or It's Takes two or Bruce Springsteen or whatever.

1494
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, it's going to be like,

1495
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 2: we just love the classics in Philly and it's in

1496
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:11,439
Speaker 2: the water. And I am grateful for all the things

1497
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:15,439
Speaker 2: that you and your colleagues have done to be a

1498
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 2: positive force in the world of music.

1499
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:19,480
Speaker 1: So thank you so Jonathan.

1500
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 5: Yes, sir, how many mites would you give the Source

1501
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 5: as a magazine?

1502
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 2: Wow?

1503
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:26,639
Speaker 1: In your time period and overall?

1504
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 2: Verat question? Man, I mean it was worth a four

1505
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 2: hour wait for that one, Okay, you know, I really

1506
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:39,360
Speaker 2: I often say that my golden era is the Source's

1507
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 2: golden era. So I think that nineteen from I did

1508
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 2: an issue called the Decade of Wrap, which came out

1509
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety. It was a look back to nineteen

1510
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:56,200
Speaker 2: eighty to nineteen ninety. That was my senior thesis at Harvard,

1511
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:58,800
Speaker 2: was that issue of the Source. So I would say

1512
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:03,000
Speaker 2: from that issue until the time I left five mics

1513
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 2: because we did everything. Now I have no comment on

1514
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:08,840
Speaker 2: what happened after I left, because I had nothing to

1515
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:12,720
Speaker 2: do with it, thank god. But basically, you know, I

1516
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,720
Speaker 2: think that our time period four and a half to

1517
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:17,040
Speaker 2: five you know, a mere set of four and a

1518
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,720
Speaker 2: half is cool, but you know, I mean, I do

1519
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:22,200
Speaker 2: think that that time period in my life is a

1520
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:24,760
Speaker 2: five MIC time period. And it's like, you know, what

1521
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 2: I look back is my golden era. So I'm very

1522
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:28,440
Speaker 2: grateful for it.

1523
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 1: Is there a place where I can collectively get like

1524
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: my one dream is to see the entire Source cannon

1525
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 1: as a volume set? Or do you own every issue?

1526
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:43,400
Speaker 1: Like do you have boxes?

1527
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,599
Speaker 2: And yes, I have boxes, and as my colleagues here

1528
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 2: in Vegas, cy, I have all kinds of shit. Man.

1529
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:53,400
Speaker 2: I got boxes of pictures, records autographed by everybody, rec

1530
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:57,760
Speaker 2: gold records, you know, promo material, but and also all

1531
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 2: the issues and also all the internal stuff. I have

1532
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:03,599
Speaker 2: a whole lot of internal documents about when we were

1533
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 2: making the issues and all that stuff, and I would

1534
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 2: like to The Source has a new owner. I'm a

1535
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:10,800
Speaker 2: guy named Londell McMillan.

1536
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 1: And he is I'm familiar with Londel.

1537
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 2: You know who Londell is. So Londel, I would like

1538
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 2: to say.

1539
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:19,800
Speaker 1: Right, no, Prince by Documentaries landed.

1540
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 2: He pretends to Prince very very assiduously. But yes, I

1541
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 2: will say that Londel. You heard Requestlove just said, let's

1542
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,519
Speaker 2: put every issue. I'm only talking about mine. So the

1543
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:34,760
Speaker 2: first let's just say the first.

1544
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:36,760
Speaker 1: So he owns the IP right now.

1545
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 2: The first fifty issues of the Source, which is roughly

1546
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 2: my time period. A little bit more than that. I

1547
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:43,479
Speaker 2: think I did like fifty four to fifty five issues

1548
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 2: something like that. So the first fifty whatever issues from

1549
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 2: that nineteen eighty to the one that had cool HERK

1550
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:53,639
Speaker 2: Bam and Flash on the cover, which is the hip

1551
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 2: hop History issue. Between those two, I would like to

1552
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,840
Speaker 2: put all those online for free. I don't want to

1553
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 2: make money from it. I just want the world to

1554
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 2: have it. I want to put them online for free.

1555
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 2: The only person that can give me the green light

1556
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 2: is Londell. So Londel, let's do it for the sake

1557
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 2: of history. Let's do it for the sake of the

1558
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 2: legacy and for and also let's make it searchable so

1559
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 2: that people can, you know, if you want to look

1560
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 2: up like large professor, you can type in large professor

1561
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 2: and you see all the page's he's on, you know.

1562
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 2: But but yeah, that's that's what we need to do.

1563
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: You're mount the God's ears. All right, Londel, you heard

1564
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:30,719
Speaker 1: it here first.

1565
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 5: This show is still going on.

1566
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:37,000
Speaker 1: Get out of here, all right, y'all. We gotta sign off, John,

1567
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:39,639
Speaker 1: thank you. Going to be up a Bill and unpaid

1568
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:45,880
Speaker 1: Steve than That sounds about right? Is quest Love next week?

1569
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:49,800
Speaker 1: This is Sugar Steve.

1570
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 5: Thank you for listening to Quest Love Supermeo. This podcast

1571
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 5: is hosted by a Mere Quest Love, Thompson, Liah Saint Clair, Sugar,

1572
01:23:56,400 --> 01:24:00,599
Speaker 5: Steve Mandel, and Unpaid Bill Sherman. The executs your producers

1573
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,599
Speaker 5: are a Mere Quest of Thompson, Sean g and Brian Calhoun,

1574
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 5: produced by Britney, Benjamin, Jake Payne and Liiah Saint Clair.

1575
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 1: Edited by Alex Conroy.

1576
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:13,440
Speaker 5: Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown.

1577
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: West. Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

1578
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:35,000
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1579
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.