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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 2: I've never lied to you. I never live if you

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Speaker 2: think that one person has all the answers, don't Welcome

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Speaker 2: to trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief and

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Speaker 2: manipulation from two podcast hosts who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 1: I'm loele Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: And today our guests are ourselves talking about the cult

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Speaker 2: of seeing everything as a cult. We're just going to

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Speaker 2: have a conversation about how things that might seem a

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Speaker 2: little culty don't necessarily inherently mean that a group is

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Speaker 2: a cult.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. We're going to talk about political polarization, online miscommunication,

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Speaker 1: group dynamics that happen in all groups, and the difference

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Speaker 1: between a dickhead and a cult leader.

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Speaker 2: And we take a couple of tangents y'all'll roll with it,

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Speaker 2: and really, we really don't need to do a cultiest

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Speaker 2: thing today because this whole episode is our cultiest thing.

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Speaker 2: Would you agree?

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Speaker 1: I completely agree? Period?

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Speaker 2: She put a period at the end of that sentence.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's just jump in and start talking about groups,

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Speaker 2: shall we.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Today. We are talking to ourselves, So let's give a

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Speaker 2: big welcome to our welcome. Oh my god. Really okay,

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Speaker 2: So what we want to talk about today is a

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Speaker 2: little different than what we normally talk about because what

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Speaker 2: we have been noticing online, offline, all over the place,

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Speaker 2: but mostly online.

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Speaker 1: Let's be honest, well, which is where most of life

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Speaker 1: takes place.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, is that accusations of indoctrination and various people being

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Speaker 2: in a cult are running rampants. This is something that

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Speaker 2: I very interestingly observed on a post of mine that

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Speaker 2: I did recently. It was a real and a TikTok

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Speaker 2: about five signs you might be indoctrinated. People commenting from

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Speaker 2: complete opposite sides of the political spectrum, so so certain

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Speaker 2: that the other side is the one that is indoctrinated,

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Speaker 2: and there's no you know, it wasn't even a question.

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Speaker 2: So now people are getting into arguments on that post,

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Speaker 2: which is just fascinating. So let's talk about that. And

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Speaker 2: another element that I want to get into today is

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Speaker 2: just this idea of like looking for cults and like

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Speaker 2: cult hunting, seeing cults everywhere. That's actually not healthy thinking either, y'all.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about it, shall we?

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Speaker 1: Let me ask myself, Megan, do you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about it? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I do, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's a fascinating subject because we are

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Speaker 1: also seeing the rise of cults because the Internet is

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Speaker 1: just a gateway of any Leana Shanti can be like

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Speaker 1: I'm a whatever, and we did an episode on her

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Speaker 1: that is much worth listening to. Just people you know,

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Speaker 1: who get Internet followings can become cult leaders quite easily.

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Speaker 1: So it's not like people are crazy to be seen

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Speaker 1: oh these patterns, but a real cult is different than

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Speaker 1: somebody just disagreeing with you exact. That's what we have

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Speaker 1: to learn how to understand.

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Speaker 2: And it's hard and it's not like we have the

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Speaker 2: clear answers on this, but we're just let's just we're

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Speaker 2: just going to do an exploration and kind of talk

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Speaker 2: about it, like you know, and to the point you

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Speaker 2: just made like cults. We know, like extreme groups and

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Speaker 2: high control groups do flourish and times that are chaotic

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Speaker 2: and unstable and where people feel very untethered. And most

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Speaker 2: people in America right now do feel that that is

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Speaker 2: the case. And I think across the world you're seeing

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Speaker 2: a lot of people leaning toward authoritarianism, which is really interesting.

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Speaker 2: These are things that genuinely flourish in times like the

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Speaker 2: ones we're in. So it's not to say that cults

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Speaker 2: aren't on the rise, because in many ways they are,

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Speaker 2: But in other ways, accusations of cult are outpacing actual occults.

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Speaker 2: So how do you tell the difference. What are some

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Speaker 2: examples of scenarios that we think maybe someone could think

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Speaker 2: it's a cult, but in this case, it's not enough

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Speaker 2: to qualify it as a cult.

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Speaker 1: I think that it all comes back to just simply

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Speaker 1: disagreeing with somebody and just saying, well, you're indoctrinated into

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Speaker 1: a cult way of thinking, instead of taking the time

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Speaker 1: to understand that the other person actually has a rational

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Speaker 1: point of view, it's just different than yours. And you

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Speaker 1: can do that on every topic, even ones that are

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Speaker 1: completely polarizing, like abortion for example. You know, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think going back to people just assuming that if somebody

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Speaker 1: doesn't agree with them, that that person is indoctrinated is

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Speaker 1: the like base of what we need to explore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. It's like in many cases there are

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Speaker 2: people who are genuinely indoctrinated. Obviously, there are news organizations

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Speaker 2: that repeat fear mongering talking points over and over again.

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Speaker 2: And if that's the only place you're getting your opinion from,

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Speaker 2: there's a good chance that opinion is not actually rooted

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Speaker 2: in your values. So sure, someone could become indoctrinated in

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Speaker 2: that way. But sometimes it's our instinct to lump everybody

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Speaker 2: together who maybe sounds like someone who would be indoctrinated,

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Speaker 2: and then accuse them of indoctrination, which ironically is the

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Speaker 2: same thing because it is black and white thinking. So

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Speaker 2: it's just not to say that sometimes it's not legitimate.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, Like, I think there are I know

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Speaker 2: people who I think are absolutely indoctrinated. Politically, I know

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Speaker 2: other people who are members of the same party as them,

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Speaker 2: or the same they're generally aligned with them, who are not,

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Speaker 2: Like it depends is there a leader that they are

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Speaker 2: listening to everything that they say, or are they just

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Speaker 2: kind of cultivating, like their opinions based on various experiences

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Speaker 2: in their lives that we can't personally understand because we

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Speaker 2: have been exposed to very different information.

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Speaker 1: It all comes back to the leader and how much

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Speaker 1: power you're giving to them.

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Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, you know, like, of course

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Speaker 2: there can be leaderless cults, but generally they initially had one.

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Speaker 2: Even if that person died, It's like group thing can

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Speaker 2: happen when there isn't a leader. But does that make

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Speaker 2: it a cult? I don't know. I think it depends

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Speaker 2: how controlling is the group generally, Will you be punished

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Speaker 2: for leaving? Do you have to conform to each and

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Speaker 2: every particular like behavior and lifestyle? I think it's a spectrum.

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Speaker 2: I think Steve Hassen gets a right when he has

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Speaker 2: his influence continuum because it's not a black and white thing.

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Speaker 2: It's not like in a cult. Not in a cult.

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Speaker 2: It's like, sure, you can be in a group that

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Speaker 2: has like some elements that are culty without literally being

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Speaker 2: in a cult. And yeah, I think a leader is

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Speaker 2: one of those things that's like this definitely is a

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Speaker 2: one of the defining characteristics in my view of something

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Speaker 2: that is actually going into cult status. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: like you know, when you think about like Internet subcultures

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Speaker 2: that become culty, it's like they don't necessarily technically have

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Speaker 2: a leader to begin with. I guess I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: thinking of like fandoms. One of the guests that we

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Speaker 2: had on who was a one direction stand What she

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Speaker 2: was talking about was how there was almost this like

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Speaker 2: subculture of her particular corner of the one direction fandom santum,

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Speaker 2: where there were a few people who were kind of

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Speaker 2: determining what was and was not loud and like moderators. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like so in this weird way, it's like, are all

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Speaker 2: one direction fans and a cult? Of course not, but

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Speaker 2: if you end up in a particular corner of one

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Speaker 2: direction standum, like maybe it really it defends. I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: a lot of people make this sort of accusation or

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Speaker 2: statement on my social media about how social justice is

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Speaker 2: a cult. And on the one hand, I understand why

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Speaker 2: people feel this way because, as we know, like cancel

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Speaker 2: culture can be extremely extreme. Demands for purity conformity is expected,

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Speaker 2: and there's this black and white thinking of like if

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Speaker 2: you've ever done anything bad, then you must be bad.

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Speaker 2: So those things are culty. However, social justice, I'm saying

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Speaker 2: in quotations is like saying politics is like saying religion.

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Speaker 2: It's not specific. It's like, are you talking about the

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Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter Los Angeles chapter? Are you talking about

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Speaker 2: Sunrise movement? Are you talking about Well, I guess that's

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Speaker 2: more in climate, but still they're very social justice oriented.

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Speaker 2: Are you talking about my local anti racist chapter? Like,

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Speaker 2: what are you talking about? Are you talking about disability

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Speaker 2: rights organizations? Because social justice does not mean one thing.

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Speaker 2: It means a lot of different things to a lot

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Speaker 2: of different people, and there's so much in fighting it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: And the amount of people who actively are critiquing are

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Speaker 2: politicians all the time is significant and substantial. So to me,

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Speaker 2: that is a non specific, almost meaningless thing to say.

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Speaker 2: If you want to say I believe that when groups

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Speaker 2: subcultures online cancel people, that is cultic behavior. I would

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Speaker 2: agree with that, assuming that person isn't like, actually like

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Speaker 2: a proven serial rapist, because of course they deserve to

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Speaker 2: be canceled. But we're talking about someone who's like made

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Speaker 2: a mistake in their lives, right, Like that is cultic behavior.

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Speaker 2: But you cannot We can't be throwing the baby out

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Speaker 2: with the bathwater here, y'all, because fighting for justice is

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Speaker 2: not like inherently a cult behavior. That's like not a thing.

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Speaker 2: And on the flip side, I think there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of people on the left who do the same

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Speaker 2: thing about Republicans and assume anyone who voted for Trump

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Speaker 2: must be brainwashed, when the reality, in my opinion, is

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Speaker 2: that diehard maga people are maybe indoctrinated just anyone who

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Speaker 2: voted for Trump. That is not a sign of indoctrination.

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Speaker 2: That's not what that is. I disagree with them strongly, vehemently.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has their own reasons and everybody's in a different place.

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Speaker 1: We got into this a lot when we talked about

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Speaker 1: how divisive social media is, which, as we all know,

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Speaker 1: is where most of us are getting our relationships and

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Speaker 1: our life. Yeah so some and I think the statistic

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Speaker 1: we got was that ten percent. Will you read that

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Speaker 1: for us? What did?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, I believe that it's ten percent of users

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Speaker 2: that create eighty percent of all content on social media.

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Speaker 2: That's crazy, crazy say that again, ten percent of users

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Speaker 2: make eighty percent of content, so the other ninety percent

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Speaker 2: of people are just not being seen or heard at.

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Speaker 1: All, because, as we learned from talking to several of

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Speaker 1: our guests, it's dangerous to put yourself out there if

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Speaker 1: you're not saying something super almost crazy, because you'll get attacked.

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Speaker 2: I mean you'll get you'll get attacked if you say

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Speaker 2: something loud, But you'll also get attacked if you say

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Speaker 2: something moderate, because then the people who do have the

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Speaker 2: more extreme view aren't going to be happy with your moderation.

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Speaker 2: But most the majority of people hold like complicated views,

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Speaker 2: some of which conflict with the other, Like they're not

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Speaker 2: necessarily completely adhering to the party line. It's like we

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Speaker 2: are disincentivized to post as people who have moderate views,

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Speaker 2: and so there this bias then happens, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: that there's a term for it, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it is, but this bias then happens where we

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Speaker 2: see posts from like just the craziest people and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: anyone who's in that camp must be like that. So

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Speaker 2: those people are fucking crazy and indoctrinated. The reality is

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Speaker 2: that's most people are not. I mean, they're just not,

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Speaker 2: Like we all have different degrees of indoctrination. Because propaganda

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Speaker 2: and marketing and politics, like all of these things are

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Speaker 2: influencing us all the time. But that doesn't mean we're like,

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Speaker 2: you know, some fucking extreme Like that doesn't make us

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Speaker 2: all extremists.

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Speaker 1: It is a really hard time in the world to

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Speaker 1: get your footing on any opinion because there's just so

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Speaker 1: much information coming so fast.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to know which places to trust and who

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Speaker 2: is just like swimming and biased because a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are, I mean, we all are. You know, the

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Speaker 2: media is not exempt and right now there aren't great

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Speaker 2: journalistic standards for eliminating bias. There just really aren't, and

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Speaker 2: it's hard, it's really hard to parse. I wrote something

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Speaker 2: earlier that said, maybe a good rule of thumb is

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Speaker 2: that if you're basing your opinions off of media telling

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Speaker 2: you that everyone in a group is everyone in a

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Speaker 2: group is brainwashed, but you don't personally talk to anyone

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Speaker 2: in that group who you know in real life and

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Speaker 2: have good faith conversations with them, it might be worth

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Speaker 2: questioning the source about whether that group is indeed brainwashed.

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Speaker 1: Agreed, And I think the keyword there is have good

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Speaker 1: faith conversations, not just conversations where you're like straw Manning

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Speaker 1: and not really listening to what the other person is saying.

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Speaker 2: Can you define straw manning, so you.

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Speaker 1: Know, the straw man policy is the kind of act

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Speaker 1: of refuting an argument I'm just reading from Wikipedia different

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Speaker 1: from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or

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Speaker 1: acknowledging the distinction. So just kind of taking something somebody

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Speaker 1: says and being like, so you're saying this and just

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Speaker 1: running with the most absurd version of it instead of

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Speaker 1: looking at what they're saying and trying to find what's

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Speaker 1: what you can agree with in it and making their

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Speaker 1: point kind of stronger so that you can both learn

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Speaker 1: something from it, which is called steal manning.

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Speaker 2: Steel manning, a term you've just taught me. Steel manning

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Speaker 2: is like more of an effort to get to the

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Speaker 2: actual truth by trying to understand your opponent's argument instead

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Speaker 2: of assuming, again in bad faith, that they must inherently

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Speaker 2: be wrong and stupid, which sometimes they are.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, which is hard to do sometimes. And like

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Speaker 1: it's so funny that every like everybody listening is just

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Speaker 1: on a totally different spectrum where they're thinking the other

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Speaker 1: they're like trying to imagine doing this with the same topics,

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Speaker 1: but on different sides, and they're like, I can't, it's

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Speaker 1: too stupid and it's just like us, and like nobody

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Speaker 1: is just so interesting.

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Speaker 2: I know so on a micro level interpersonally, like in

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Speaker 2: my experience and from everything I understand, so much of

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Speaker 2: the time we say one thing, our partner hears something else.

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Speaker 2: We mean one thing, our friend thinks we are like

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Speaker 2: they're interpreting it some whole other ass way. And if

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Speaker 2: we don't like have a genuine conversation to be like,

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Speaker 2: what did you mean? Did you mean this? Here's how

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Speaker 2: I felt when you said that, And we're not talking

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Speaker 2: about If we don't talk about how things get lost

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Speaker 2: in translation, then we're probably just walking around our daily

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Speaker 2: lives assuming these like crazy things that the other person

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Speaker 2: didn't intend. And I don't want to diminish that. Like

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Speaker 2: you know, there are some truth is real, like and

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Speaker 2: not everything is subjective. There are certain like evidence matters,

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Speaker 2: Evidence absolutely freaking matters. So I'm not talking about that,

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Speaker 2: like you know, when it comes to life or death

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Speaker 2: situations or when people are dying or whatever, like that's

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Speaker 2: not what I mean. But in terms of interpreting your

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Speaker 2: fellow man teritably, if it's that hard just to be

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Speaker 2: in a relationship and understand each other. Truly. Imagine how

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Speaker 2: much we are misunderstanding each other on a macro level

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Speaker 2: through a fucking computer and phone screen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, based off of people who are making their money

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Speaker 1: being eighty percent of the people just stating the loudest,

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Speaker 1: most ridiculous views to get sponsorships, like.

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Speaker 2: And just how the algorithm rewards that. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: are rewarded even if you're not going about having your

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Speaker 2: opinions with the malicious intent, Like, you're still rewarded for

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Speaker 2: saying the thing that's most salacious, the thing that's going

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Speaker 2: to get the most fear or arousal of some kind,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe sexual whatever, you know, like, And it's

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Speaker 2: frustrating because I like that is one thing I do

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Speaker 2: see in cancel culture is like I feel like I

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Speaker 2: will see someone say or do something that seems likely

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Speaker 2: to have been misinterpreted. And you see these stories all

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Speaker 2: the time, but because there is no actual good faith

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Speaker 2: engagement on the subject, it goes immediately to that black

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Speaker 2: and white thinking, to that fundamental attribution error where people

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Speaker 2: are like, well, if you did that, you it must

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Speaker 2: be your fundamental human flowers. If I did that here's

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Speaker 2: all of this context and reasoning and it's understandable when

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Speaker 2: I do it. I don't know what the answer is.

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Speaker 2: It's not like we can have macro nonviolent communication with

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Speaker 2: everyone on earth, but it does. I mean, it just.

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Speaker 1: Makes me feel like we're not meant for macro communication.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I honestly, or or like we need a totally

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Speaker 2: different form of communicating with each other in that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which I don't know what that looks like. But

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Speaker 1: this is not it.

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Speaker 2: I think you are the one where it was it

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Speaker 2: you who said that, like or was it someone else?

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Speaker 2: I can't remember. It was talking about Threads, the app Threads.

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Speaker 1: Definitely not me.

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Speaker 2: Okay, someone was talking about the app Threads, which is

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Speaker 2: like meta Facebook's like version of Twitter or whatever, and

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Speaker 2: how it was like ah breath of fresh air when

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Speaker 2: we first switched over. It was like so wholesome. And

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Speaker 2: now when you go on Threads, the first five things

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Speaker 2: you see are the most like violent, crazy, what racist

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Speaker 2: things you've ever seen. It's so extreme. I mean, like,

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Speaker 2: I just the profit driven social media thing is just

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Speaker 2: like not serving us as human beings in any way.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know what to do about it. But

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Speaker 2: that is, I do feel like unplugging and genuinely just like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: trying to talk to the people you do have in

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Speaker 2: your life to the best ability that you can is

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Speaker 2: the best that we can do. And also try to

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Speaker 2: expose yourself to things outside of your immediate understanding and learn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean unless that learning is an

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Speaker 1: inflicting violence on you or something.

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Speaker 2: But well, learning can be uncomfortable. Learning can be very

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Speaker 2: if it breaks our paradigm and our way of seeing

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Speaker 2: the world. Learning is very uncomfortable, and it can feel painful.

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Speaker 1: So it's you know, cognitive dissse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes I think that, I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: that that can be really important to genuinely be like, okay,

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Speaker 2: am I ready and willing to be uncomfortable and potentially

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Speaker 2: be exposing myself to information that doesn't fit with my worldview.

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Speaker 1: I press the red no button. No, I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 1: I unfortunately have to do that all the time, and

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Speaker 1: it's really hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I really, I really try. Like I

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Speaker 2: have very strong views about a lot of things. I

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Speaker 2: have a lot of political conviction, and I am pretty

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Speaker 2: unwavering in that way. But I still it's still very

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Speaker 2: important to me to understand what people who disagree with me,

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Speaker 2: like why they disagree with me, you know, and try

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Speaker 2: to like genuinely get it because I have so many

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Speaker 2: people I love who just like do not see the

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Speaker 2: world the way that I do, and I want to know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they're evil. I just don't, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I in a different form. I have a

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Speaker 1: friend who's just like, Listen, I don't care about politics.

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Speaker 1: I want to identify as this thing, and I don't

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Speaker 1: ever want to hear anything that troubles me in this

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Speaker 1: party line of thought. So I don't want to hear anything.

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Speaker 1: It's just not where my mind is that right now.

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Speaker 1: I want to raise my kid. I want to like

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Speaker 1: not go crazy, and I believe this, and like I

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Speaker 1: do respect her boundaries and I'm not constantly bringing her

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Speaker 1: like new little tidbits. You know, what do you think

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can't force someone to be

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Speaker 2: ready if they're not ready. And I do think, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I would say, like when my family was

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Speaker 2: in crisis this past fall, like it was really really

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Speaker 2: hard to hold space for all of the political things

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Speaker 2: I wanted to hold space for at the same time

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Speaker 2: as managing that crisis, and I think, like we have

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Speaker 2: to be empathetic to that. Like I there's only so

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Speaker 2: much that a person can do at one time, so

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Speaker 2: I think like that is important to like respect and understand.

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Speaker 2: I talked about this with Barrick who when you were sick,

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Speaker 2: I believe or I did that episode with Barack. We

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Speaker 2: talked about this a little bit. But like Barrick hardly

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Speaker 2: shout out he's a great artist, Go buy his art.

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Speaker 2: Not everybody values truth in the way that I think

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Speaker 2: you and I do, Like I'm not. I'm not saying that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not putting a value judgment on that at all.

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Speaker 2: Like some people want the things that are important to

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Speaker 2: them in their lives, our stability and doing something good

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Speaker 2: to the extent that they can, and just like living

385
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Speaker 2: their lives and loving their families or whatever whatever the

386
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Speaker 2: fuck it is. I like, I like am deeply curious

387
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Speaker 2: and constantly questioning everything, and like including the stuff I

388
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Speaker 2: don't want to question, Like I don't want to it

389
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 2: doesn't feel good, but true, like trying to get to

390
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Speaker 2: some version of objective truth is really important to me personally.

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Speaker 2: That's my value. But someone who doesn't share that value.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that that's inherently less like good.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of inherently like inherently, that's not my highest value.

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Speaker 1: Like my highest value is much more micro like here's

395
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Speaker 1: my family, here's like live, laugh, love, like let's you know,

396
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Speaker 1: make a garden and try to experience life. But unfortunately

397
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Speaker 1: I grew up in a way that has forced me

398
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Speaker 1: to have to question that every.

399
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Speaker 2: Single Yeah, yeah, which can be exhausting, and yeah, also

400
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: can be endless, endless, endless, But again, truth is real.

401
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 2: I'm not saying truth it's not real. Evidence matters, but

402
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: when you're trying to like it's it can be endless,

403
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: trying to hold space for everybody's opinion all the time.

404
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: Like that's not necessarily very practical either.

405
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it does. It does get exhausting, and I

406
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: don't think maybe it would be, and maybe maybe it

407
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: would be, but I don't know if I had just

408
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Speaker 1: been raised quote unquote more normally, that this would be

409
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: such an important part of my journey.

410
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 2: Same same, I think, like having believed something so wild

411
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Speaker 2: and then it the rug being pulled out from under

412
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Speaker 2: me in such a clear obvious way that involved harm

413
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Speaker 2: to my family. Yes, was it's hard not to take

414
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: that and be like, what else is like this?

415
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Speaker 1: Right?

416
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: What else am I being told or sold or whatever?

417
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 2: That is just someone fucking making it up, whether it's

418
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: for profit or power or just from their own bias,

419
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: Like what are the other areas of my life where

420
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 2: this happening? And I think that's true of a lot

421
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: of former members, you know, Like I think once you

422
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 2: once the first thing, once you question the first thing,

423
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: then it's like, oh, wait is this everything? Is everything

424
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Speaker 2: like this?

425
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 1: I understand why people who haven't been in a cult

426
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Speaker 1: are not constantly asking these questions.

427
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is the truth? No, it's not that important.

428
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 2: I mean, like you know, especially I don't know people

429
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: just we don't even have enough money for healthcare half

430
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Speaker 2: the time, Like, how can we be bothered with the

431
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: truth when it's like so many people are just trying

432
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Speaker 2: to survive, you know exactly. I'm gonna read off some

433
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 2: things I wrote that don't inherently make something occult without

434
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: the control. Okay, weird beliefs. Every religion has weird beliefs

435
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 2: if you think about it, if you look at it

436
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: long enough, weird beliefs do not make something a cult,

437
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: a group that has a leader who has been imperfect

438
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 2: or made mistakes. That doesn't inherently make something a cult.

439
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: If they're open to feedback, if they're open to amending

440
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 2: behavior or acknowledging their mistakes, probably not a cult leader.

441
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: Maybe depending and sometimes maybe even if they are kind

442
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: of pig headed assholes, because you know a lot of

443
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: people in at the heads of companies are pig headed assholes,

444
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: it still doesn't necessarily mean their cult leader. They might

445
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: just be a dick. So it's important to look at

446
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: the evidence. Is there evidence that they are actively trying

447
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: to control manipulation, abuse people being uncomfortable?

448
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: What is the difference between a cult leader and a dick?

449
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: Good question, Thanks.

450
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: I mean I think I My sensus is that I'm

451
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: just thinking about this for the first time, right this

452
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: very moment, so this is half baked. Is a dick

453
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily give a shit what you do on your

454
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: own time with your life. A dick might be a

455
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 2: nurse who's like, yeah, like serve me at work, or

456
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: serve me in this group or whatever. But there's not

457
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 2: necessarily the need to control your life, your thoughts, your behavior,

458
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: your ward or whatever. I feel like the control is

459
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 2: what makes the difference. They've got like maybe their own

460
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: individual goals and they just want to serve those goals,

461
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: and they'll they might use you and be a dig

462
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 2: about it, but there's not like follow me. I have

463
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: the answer. That's my you know, having not thought about

464
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 2: this at all whatsoever response. What do you think of that?

465
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 2: Does that sound like a thing?

466
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think, you know, we talk a lot about

467
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: how some cult leaders actually believe their own bullshit and

468
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: don't even think that they're dicks. I mean, I think

469
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: we discussed last week a guy who was like eaten

470
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: by alligators because he was showing his followers that he

471
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: couldn't be eaten by alligators. That's not a dick. That's

472
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: a person who's like on a totally different level of reality.

473
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: That's you know, that's like delusions of grander delusions.

474
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we do have these two like different paths

475
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: of cult leaders, of those who believe they're own bullshit

476
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 1: and those who know that they're full of shit and

477
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: are just like like, at the end of the day,

478
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: we've come to the conclusion on so many people of like, oh,

479
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: they just wanted to have sex with people, so they

480
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: started a cult right right. You know, Keith Narry did not.

481
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: He just wanted a sex call at the end of

482
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: the day. In my opinion, he.

483
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: Could have just like fuck, but he wanted the power,

484
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: like he got off on that power.

485
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah, totally. He's a cult leader. He's psychotic. Yeah,

486
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, I guess the same can be

487
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: said of people who are just dickheads. Some of them

488
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: think that they're being dickheads for the betterment of humanity

489
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: and you, and some of them think that they're just

490
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: dickheads because they are and they want what they want.

491
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: So I guess, I guess my conclusion does doesn't make

492
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: any fucking sense or progress the conversation and the slightest

493
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: except to say that all the subcategories of clult leaders

494
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: and dickheads are hard to weed through.

495
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. I mean, and if someone's addic actively

496
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: to you all the time, don't have them in your life.

497
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: That shouldn't. But I don't care whether or not they're

498
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 2: a cult leader. Probably you know, if you can eliminate

499
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 2: them for your life, that'd be great. But yeah, yeah,

500
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: I think I see a lot online of people like

501
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: just like there's like a readiness and a willingness, because

502
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: cults are so much a part of the conversation now

503
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: to call anything they've been a part of a cult

504
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: if there was something that made them uncomfortable, and no

505
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: one should be made uncomfortable in the workplace or whatever.

506
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: But it doesn't inherently mean cult necessarily, Which brings me

507
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: actually to something I've talked about like forever ago, very

508
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: briefly on this podcast, but I want to mention it again,

509
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: which is a common pattern that happens within groups. And

510
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: this was what's his name? This was developed by a

511
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 2: psychologist named Bruce Tuckman back in the sixties. He was

512
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: describing the behavior, the common patterns that groups take. And

513
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: my actually, my therapist is the one who told me

514
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: about this, because I was a part of a group

515
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: before where this kind of happened, and I was so bewildered,

516
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: and it made so much sense once he explained it

517
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: to me. It goes the group pattern typically goes forming, storming, norming,

518
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: and performing, and then some people have added a final

519
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: a fifth one that is like mourning or adjourning. So

520
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: after a group of forms, you know, in the beginning,

521
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,719
Speaker 2: people are sort of tentative and no one really knows

522
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: what their role is and who's you know, it's a

523
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: little bit more polite. Once people are a little bit

524
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: more comfortable in the group, there is a storming period.

525
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: There's frequently conflict, there's frequently disagreement. There's frequently questioning of

526
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: the leadership or the hierarchy, where there's often a power struggle.

527
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: This almost always happens, and it's on different levels for

528
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: different groups, and sometimes it's no big deal. Sometimes it's

529
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: really a big deal and the group falls apart. But

530
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: a group that has some sort of group of cohesion

531
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: and can make it through, they then go into the

532
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: norming phase where things kind of normalize, the new structure

533
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: is in place, and then they can actually work together.

534
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: I find this really interesting because I, you know, collaborating

535
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: with people creatively. I really have noticed this pattern where

536
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: there is like, after everyone's a little bit more comfortable,

537
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: whoever has sort of naturally become the leader then gets

538
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: called into question and then people, you know, there's this

539
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: period where people are kind of up in arms and

540
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: being like that's not how I feel, and I agree

541
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: and you can't do that or whatever. So I think

542
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: a reasonable question to ask if you're debating whether something

543
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: is a cult. Is is it a cult or is

544
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: it just a group going through the normal storming phase

545
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: of the formation of groups. You know, cults obviously also

546
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: go through these stages because they're groups, and they don't

547
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: always end healthy because the norming phase might be when

548
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: the people who don't believe in the cult leader as

549
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: much exit, so then it norms and then they perform

550
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: as a cult together really well because they're all adhering

551
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: to the leader's rules. But there will be circumstances where

552
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: it feels like a group is super unhealthy or whatever,

553
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: something's bad because this is just like the normal stage

554
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 2: of like, okay, we have to figure out like a

555
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: healthier way to approach.

556
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: The conversation dynamics.

557
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: I hate some so fucking mind.

558
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: Group dynamics are evil. Have you ever done group therapy?

559
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: Uh? Yes, it's really cool, but well only like I

560
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: mean support groups. Yes, but not necessarily like I did.

561
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: A group therapy class where it was more of a

562
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: group dynamic where we are like kind of calling each

563
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: other out, not in us.

564
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, it sounds guilty. It was.

565
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: It was for my degree, and it was like crazy

566
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: how because you would sit outside of the group and

567
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: observe how the group behaved, and you would see who

568
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: became the leader and it was all unconscious to the

569
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: people in the group, and like how those people turned

570
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: and like, oh, this is it's so interesting that you

571
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: brought up this. And then like you know, depending on

572
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: where we were in the class, like how funny that

573
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: on the last class everybody suddenly was like talking about

574
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: death and it's like right because the class is ending,

575
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: and you know whatever, it's not, but it's just groups.

576
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: I also remember talking to like a family guy writer

577
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: once and I was like on a date with him,

578
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: I think or something, and I was like, do you

579
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: believe in God? And he was like no. But like

580
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: being in a writer room and being that absorbed in

581
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: group think has made me believe that we're connected on

582
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: a level so much deeper than I could ever understand.

583
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: Because we'll go one place that's so stupid, and then

584
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: two people will say at the same time like bumblebees

585
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: and like have a like completely different but like we've

586
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: all come to that. I don't know, there's something very

587
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: weird that happens in groups that's very scary and very alive,

588
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: and like why it's wild?

589
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it's human nature to want to adhere to

590
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: our groups. It just is. And like, and you know,

591
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: I always wish that I were somehow a robot human

592
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: who could like withstand those forces, but I'm not.

593
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: And I noticed you mean a narcissist.

594
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: No, I mean, like you know, when you when you

595
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: go to a new class, Like when I'm when I'm

596
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: in a new class and no one's really speaking up,

597
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: then I'm like super chatty and I'm like, I can

598
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: I can talk. But then the minute other people start

599
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: to kind of become more dominant, then I retreat and

600
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 2: then I'm like, oh, I don't want to be competing,

601
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: you know. Like it's and it depends what it is,

602
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: if it's an area I feel confident in or not,

603
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: but it's we're we are really so influenced by the

604
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: power of other people. Yeah, what what you just said

605
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: reminds me of that experiment that like video I always

606
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: think about, which I've talked about before, but it's about priming.

607
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: Do you remember this with the advertising like graphic designers

608
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: remind me? Okay, for anyone who does has not heard

609
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: me talk about this probably a thousand times, but it's

610
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 2: been a while. There there's a video and I will

611
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: have to find the link. But it was this little

612
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: experiment done. I don't even remember who it was by,

613
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: but it's fascinating because what they did was they picked

614
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: up a few different graphic designers from the airport and

615
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: brought them all along the same route and specifically planted

616
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: things along that route that they would see visually, uh,

617
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: and then have them design the logo for this like

618
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 2: fake company or whatever. And they had all been primed

619
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: by the same imagery, having no idea, and they all

620
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: drew like almost the exact same.

621
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: Logo, so fucking crazy.

622
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: It makes sense that, like, when we're all having the

623
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: same experience together, it's gonna feel like this mind melding thing,

624
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: you know. But it's it's priming, it's we're being exposed

625
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: to the same thing. I think that's why so many

626
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: movies come out or like people end up writing scripts

627
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: about the same things at the same time so much

628
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 2: at the time, which is fucking annoying because you want

629
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: to feel like you're a special and you're not. Yeah, anyway,

630
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: that that's sort of an aside, but I just always

631
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: think that's really interesting. We are so influenced by subconscious

632
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 2: things that like we that we are perceiving all the

633
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: time and aren't even fun aware that we're perceiving, which

634
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: is why marketing like is such a valuable tool for companies.

635
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: As much as I hate.

636
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 1: It, we hate everything.

637
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I don't want to be a you know,

638
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: like you want to feel like you're not susceptible. But

639
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: it's it's just the same show. We always talk about

640
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 2: everyone susceptible to everything. We're all susceptible to all of it.

641
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: This always strikes me. You'll be driving on the highway

642
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: and everybody's like doing a great job and we're all

643
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: like working together and flowing and like no drama, and

644
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: then some dickhead and like a BMW will come bombing through.

645
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: Very nice people drive BMWs two whatever but like cutting

646
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: people off and whatever, and like it'll ignite in other people.

647
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: And I'll just say it, in my experience, men in particular,

648
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: the urge to also drive like a dickhead. Like I

649
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: if I'm ever driving with a I ab horror that

650
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: moment they're doing so good that like somebody comes in

651
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: like flashing lights blazing dread crazy because they like just

652
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: immediately seem to start picking up on that behavior, and

653
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh.

654
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: Yes, I have totally observed this, and and we'll add

655
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: that Jack, my boyfriend currently for anyone who doesn't remember

656
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: or has not heard who Jack is, does not do

657
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: that at all, which is such a.

658
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: Little uh that's a nice little slice. And he is, Yeah,

659
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: yes he will.

660
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: He resists that at all costs. I love that about him.

661
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: But I've totally seen that happen and.

662
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: With women too, for sure, you know, at all the genders.

663
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: It's just I've always secretly dreaded that moment when driving

664
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: with the man that somebody comes in and I'm just like, wow,

665
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: we are just like so primed to be uh, you know,

666
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: the because most of the men that I'm driving with

667
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: our like want to be manly men or whatever, and

668
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: so that is like a trigger for them or whatever.

669
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: I don't know.

670
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're influenced by subconscious forces at all times, because,

671
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: as we've talked about a million times, our brains make

672
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: mental shortcuts to save energy. It's just something they have

673
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 2: to do for us to survive and get through the day.

674
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: So we might feel a feeling and we don't know

675
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: why we felt it, and there was a trigger, but

676
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: it doesn't necessarily occur to occur to us. On us

677
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: we're hunting for it, and sometimes we don't even see it,

678
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: like those like those gorilla the gorilla experiments where the

679
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: person walks by in the gorilla costume.

680
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, because they're playing like the basketball thing.

681
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people are told to focus on one thing

682
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: during the game, so they're focused on that one thing,

683
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: and a fucking person in a gorilla suit walks in

684
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: the middle of the frame, very obviously, and nobody sees it.

685
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so everyone knows. There's like a video

686
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: where it's like how many times does this basketball tossed?

687
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: And you're you become so hyper focused and you're like,

688
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: I'm going this must be like a hard, weird question.

689
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to know the answer, and so you're like

690
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: watching it and then they play it again and they're like,

691
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: did you notice that a gorilla walk through the middle

692
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: of the basketball thing? And you're like, oh my god,

693
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: and like you didn't.

694
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we missed shit all the time.

695
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: We miss shit?

696
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 2: How can we like so, so, how would we not

697
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: miss things about other people? To bring it all back?

698
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: We do. That's the thing. That's the thing. This is

699
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: lived to tell.

700
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: And I had a brief moment when he undid his

701
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: pants and I dove into the ocean.

702
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: Where I talked to some of the bravest people.

703
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: I landed on my back and I had a bear.

704
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: In my life, notes who have been through the most

705
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: horrifying things.

706
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: And I said to myself in my head, if he

707
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: pulls into the woods, he'll kill me.

708
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 2: Why else would you pull into the woods? And lived

709
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: to tell the tale. And in between those slashing, those

710
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: three slashings, he had taken the knife and just plunged

711
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: it directly into my chest. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

712
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to my list really fast here.

713
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: It's not that much longer. Being LGBTQ or welcoming of

714
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: transidentities does not mean you're indoctrinated.

715
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: This is it.

716
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: I googled indoctrination recently for something other oath for my video,

717
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: and there were so many Fox News results that we're

718
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: talking about that were referencing indoctrination because there were people

719
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: who were welcoming trans people and education about transidentity. That

720
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: is not a thing, you guys, It's just not you know,

721
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: like if you want to talk about individual people or

722
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: situations where people became to extreme in their beliefs, fine,

723
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: but having a different identity or believing that it's okay

724
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: to have a different identity does not inherently make you indoctrinated. Also,

725
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: being part of a subgroup where something cultish happened in

726
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: another branch because of someone over in that branch who

727
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: was an individual bad actor doesn't inherently mean that the

728
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: person over here in this other section with a different

729
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: leader is in a cult. As which something we've talked

730
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: about a lot, You can one person can have a

731
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 2: cult experience and someone in the same exact group can

732
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: have a cult can be having a totally normal, chill

733
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: experience because they're led by different people. I know people

734
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,959
Speaker 2: who were Anxium. At a very surface level, it doesn't

735
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 2: mean Nxium wasn't a cult. Naxian was obviously a cult,

736
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: but they were, but their experience was not that of

737
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: being an a cult. It was just very like self healthy,

738
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: normal whatever. This is true of a lot of religions

739
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 2: as well. I think where there will be like someone

740
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: will do something horrible over here in Texas, but over

741
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: here in Mission, the pastors like cool and like understanding,

742
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 2: you know, like that. That's just you know, everyone's experience

743
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: is different depending on who the leader is, so h

744
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 2: doesn't inherently make an entire group of cult if something

745
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: culty is happening in one area. Wanting to learn about

746
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: history or different frameworks for thinking about the world is

747
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: not indoctrination. Education generally it's about history and things that

748
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: objectively happened and are fact based is not indoctrination. There is,

749
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of book banning going on in

750
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: this country. There's been a lot of resistance to learning

751
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 2: about you know, like the black experience in America. That's

752
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: not indoctrination, Folks learn education is the opposite of indoctrination.

753
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: I cannot stress that enough. And that is pretty much

754
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: the end of my list. But do you did I

755
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 2: miss anything? Do you think there's I mean, I'm sure

756
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: there's a million more examples. Yeah.

757
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: I think really focusing on social pressure is a good

758
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: indicator of if you're in something healthy or not. How

759
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: much pressure are you feeling from your community to behave

760
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: a certain way? That to me is a really indicative

761
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: red flag. Because groups will group. We need a t

762
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: shirt that says that yes, and they will storm and

763
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: they will mourn, and they will whatever. But at the

764
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: end of the day, who you are as a person

765
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: is always going to be separate from groups. So how

766
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: much uh, how much pressure are you feeling from your

767
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: from your group? Not even just the leader, who we

768
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: focus on a lot and who is the most important,

769
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: but how uh how groupy is your group?

770
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: Well that I mean, that's an interesting question because, like

771
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: you know, some of those old social experiments were debunked,

772
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: but there's good evidence that shows that, like, we really

773
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 2: don't like to as humans, We really don't like to

774
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: not conform. We don't for sure like to stand out.

775
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: We really are afraid, even in a group of strangers,

776
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: we're afraid of being seen as like stupid or doing

777
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: something wrong, you know, or like speaking.

778
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: I think that it's to a lesser degree than we've

779
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: been like the stupid Stanford experiment that's not real, and

780
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, like like the stuff that we've been taught

781
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: is like you absolutely will not speak out about a group,

782
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: And it's like a lot of people will, more so

783
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: than I think they even know until they're in a

784
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: group that they're not allowed to and then they're like,

785
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: what the fuck this is weird?

786
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: That's that's true, that's true. I mean, I guess in

787
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: a healthy group there's a diversity of viewpoints, and in

788
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: an unhealthy group there's there's one viewpoint and one viewpoint only.

789
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: But even I will say I feel like a lot

790
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 2: of groups do have periods where they are like that,

791
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: but they're missing a lot of the other attributes of cults.

792
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: So this is more after the storming period. This is

793
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: more like when a group is well.

794
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 2: I'm talking I'm thinking about like you know, I'm thinking

795
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: about like politically, like a lot of people will be

796
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: afraid to say something that disagrees, but as we know,

797
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: most people are disincentivized to do that because in general,

798
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: that's something that will be punished online because of the

799
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: culture of social media. So it's a tricky thing because

800
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, if you speak up and you will

801
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: be destroyed. That is a problem. But there are very

802
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: few examples of online cultures right now where that is

803
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: not true.

804
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: Oh I am not speaking about online Okay, okay, okay,

805
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: Like at a at a group dinner party, I'm very

806
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: comfortable with being like, I see I with you on

807
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: that I don't on that. Hmm interesting, Oh yeah we

808
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: disagree or oh I see wonderful, right, but I'm not

809
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: posting that shuit online.

810
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think well, I think that. Yeah, I think

811
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 2: that's a that's an important distinction because like a lot

812
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: of the commenters who are commenting black and white things

813
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: on my posts are making these assumptions about online spaces

814
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: where everyone is afraid to speak up because that's the

815
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 2: nature of how things are online. So on its own,

816
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: not a great gauge, but yes, if you're a member

817
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 2: of a church or associate, you know, a political group,

818
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 2: or a self help group, whatever the fucking MLM, and

819
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: there is something that you know to be true that

820
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: you cannot say exactly, you cannot express that would you know,

821
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 2: call into question what y'all are doing in the first place.

822
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 2: That is the culty v culty boop boop, for sure.

823
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 2: I mean, healthy groups encourage discussion, as we know, they

824
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: encourage conversation around things that you know, maybe aren't healthy

825
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: in the group and need to be fixed. Because no

826
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 2: group is perfect, and every group is going to need

827
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: something to be fixed at some point. That's just a

828
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: reality of humanity. Conflict will arise it just will. But

829
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: how do how is it then responded to when it

830
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 2: is mentioned? Is it punished or is it is it

831
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 2: ignored or is it listened to, maybe even a little defensively,

832
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,240
Speaker 2: but still listen to. That's an important distinction.

833
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so.

834
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: But you know, I think in general right now, like

835
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: the United States in particular. I can't speak to other

836
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: countries necessarily, but I do think it's happening kind of everywhere.

837
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 2: There's so much polarization in so much division, and there's

838
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: such a culture of like I'm on team A and

839
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: I'm and you're on team B, and I wish we

840
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: could get to a place where there was a shift

841
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: where it was I guess just like a good faith

842
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: uh discussion would be encouraged, Like you know what I

843
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: have when I go back with h and see my family,

844
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 2: and you know, the role in Midwest, Like there are

845
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: things we talk about that if I saw that online,

846
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: it would like flare me up. But because I can

847
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: hear them, we can actually talk about it. And a

848
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 2: lot of the time we find we value a lot

849
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: of the same things. And see, I know a lot

850
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 2: of the same things and a lot of it's fucking marketing.

851
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: It's branding of certain catchphrases that are allowed or not allowed,

852
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: or deemed as bad or good. And you know, and fundamentally, like,

853
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: we actually value a lot of the same things, So

854
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 2: you know, how do we get to a place where

855
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: we can stop fucking? And I don't even just mean

856
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: like left versus right, I mean left versus far left,

857
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 2: or I mean you know, like.

858
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think a warning sign is like

859
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: if you can't see any holes and what you believe,

860
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: that's kind of a red flag, Like if you can't

861
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: see any like well, that might be like if it's

862
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: too scary to even go there.

863
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think totally. If you if you feel like

864
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: resistant and defensive the moment that what you believe is

865
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 2: questioned in any way, even in like a moderate or

866
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 2: reasonable way, that is a sign that you should probably

867
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: take a look at that defensiveness for sure, I think,

868
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: which brings me back to your steel manning thing, which

869
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: you know is where you actively try to understand the

870
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: best version of your opponent's argument. That would be just

871
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: a healthier way in general, And you still might find

872
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 2: that once you do that, you feel very convicted. You

873
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 2: still feel a lot of conviction about your original beliefs.

874
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 2: You know, like I said, I'm very passionate about a

875
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: lot of things. I'm very passionate that people in Gaza

876
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 2: need to not be killed anymore.

877
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: It's hard work to look at these things and to

878
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: say them publicly because people get very mad at you.

879
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like and low key like propaganda's real, you know,

880
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: lobbying is real. Like there are a lot of opinions

881
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: that we have that come from people with money trying

882
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 2: to convince us of that thing. So like then how

883
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: you know, then, like to make sure we're engaging in

884
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 2: good thinking, it's important to question where those beliefs came from.

885
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: Who told us that. Is that actually fundamentally the thing

886
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 2: that we value, or is it just that we've inherited

887
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 2: that belief from someone else? And all of this is

888
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 2: a fuck ton of work, and not everyone needs to

889
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: do it, and I'm exhausted just talking about it, I

890
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 2: know too.

891
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean, not everyone needs to do all

892
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: of it, but everyone needs to do a little bit

893
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: of it.

894
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think attempting to think well is

895
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: really really important for us to have a healthy society

896
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 2: where we you know, where we take care of our

897
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 2: people better than we have been and we don't like

898
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 2: just you know, fucking have a civil war or whatever.

899
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, just don't just recycle your thinking from previous generations,

900
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: like examine it, look at it, therapy. Uh, you know,

901
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: what is real?

902
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: What is real? What is real? Megan? In the post

903
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: truth era, it's so hard to navigate. We talk about

904
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: this all the time. I'm sorry if we're broken records

905
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: you guys, but uh, but it's something that I it's

906
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: just like the question that I feel like is always

907
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: on my mind, like how how do you know? And

908
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 2: how do you communicate to others once you once you

909
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 2: do unpack what the source of real? Yeah, what's real

910
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: for you? Or what's real generally? You know, there was

911
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: this great quote. This is a quote that people have been,

912
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: you know, kind of circulating lately. But I do think

913
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: it's it feels relevant to my interests, So I'm going

914
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 2: to say it. And it's a it's about journalism, and

915
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: it's if someone says it's raining and another person says

916
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: it's dry, it's not your job to quote them both.

917
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: It's your job to look out the window and find

918
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 2: out which is true. And I that is That's the

919
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 2: like flip side of the coin we've been talking about,

920
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 2: which is understanding and empathy, which is that like there

921
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 2: is there is true, there is evidence, and we can

922
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 2: look at that. We can choose to look at evidence,

923
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: or we can choose to avoid evidence. And good thinking,

924
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: in my opinion, would be trying to actively find the evidence,

925
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 2: even when it's uncomfortable to look at And not everything

926
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 2: is a cult, but some things are right and.

927
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: Couldn't say it better myself, I think you.

928
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 2: Could actually say it better yourself. I'm being honest.

929
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of things are occult and a

930
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: lot of things aren't.

931
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: A lot of things are on the spectrum of cultishness

932
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: that are not inherently like totally fully embodying cult like

933
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: all of the cult characteristics. And and I guess the

934
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: question is like, if you find that some things you're

935
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: engaging in are on the spectrum, don't panic? Are you

936
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: willing and ready to start poking holes in your own

937
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: arguments and looking for other points of view that might

938
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: be looking out the window? Evidence matters. There is truth

939
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: does exist, even though it feels like it doesn't sometimes,

940
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: And to be good thinkers, I think it's our duty

941
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: to try to poke holes in our own arguments if

942
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: we're finding that we are somewhere on that spectrum on

943
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: the influence continuum, as Steve would say. And yeah, I

944
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 2: don't know. I think for me, like, I think that

945
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: I get really uncomfortable when I feel like people aren't

946
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: striving for that baseline of reality and like we're living

947
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 2: in different realities completely.

948
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: It feels unfair. It feels like, yeah, it feels a

949
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: little unfair.

950
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: What do you mean.

951
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,959
Speaker 1: It just feels like, oh, that must be so nice

952
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: to just kind of not be in reality.

953
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: That's not how I feel. That's interesting. I mean yeah,

954
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 2: in some ways, in some ways, I feel like believing

955
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 2: in and afterlife. I think that seems really nice. Because

956
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: I don't believe in an afterlife. It's awful for me,

957
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 2: but I do believe in one. Go on, Oh that's good. No,

958
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel nice. No oh why oh because you

959
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: still have the damnation stuff.

960
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: No, just like the I don't know, okay, I just

961
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 1: think being not existing sounds a little relaxing.

962
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 2: Oh oh, it sounds terrifying to me. I really am

963
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: not looking forward to not existing.

964
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't worry about it. Once you get there you

965
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: won't even know.

966
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think what makes me uncomfortable is

967
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 2: that I you know, so much is subjective, but then

968
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: some things really aren't. And I think, like there is

969
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 2: objective truth, like when somebody commits a behavior, like engages

970
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 2: in an action that harms someone, that that is real,

971
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: like if it's and sometimes that stuff is also perception based,

972
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 2: like if it's like someone said something that was hurtful

973
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 2: but it wasn't intended to be Like, obviously that's a

974
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 2: different thing. But I mean if someone is actively abusing

975
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: or harming or killing people, that is like that is

976
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: an objective truth that I personally disagree with. And I

977
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 2: guess like I want to live in a world where

978
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,760
Speaker 2: we are all trying to harm as few people as possible.

979
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 2: And when I feel like other people are not living

980
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 2: in the same reality as me, or not striving to

981
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: live in the same reality as me, it makes me

982
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 2: feel kind of panicky because I start to think, well,

983
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: who can be justified to be harmed if we are

984
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 2: not seeking to find the truth of this thing? Who

985
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: can you spin a narrative about to dehumanize and harm

986
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 2: Is it someone I love? Is it someone I don't know,

987
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,760
Speaker 2: but care about anyway? Is it me like? It feels

988
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: like I think I associate that disconnection from this idea

989
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 2: of an objective reality with the possibility of harm. So

990
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 2: it makes me feel afraid.

991
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: Totally understand.

992
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 2: I just want to live in a world where people

993
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 2: care about each other and are generally trying to be good.

994
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: That's all, no big deal, And what we're a profit

995
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 2: is not prioritized over people like it is on you know,

996
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: with social media platforms that are now destroying all of

997
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 2: our brains like that. That is something that I wish for.

998
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 2: That's my Christmas wish.

999
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: And your your Spring Christmas wish is a spring with

1000
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: the march, Yeah, isn't it March?

1001
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's spring my spring wish my March Uh.

1002
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: I was going to think of an M word, but

1003
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: then I couldn't think of one.

1004
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: Your March madness wish.

1005
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: My basketball March madness wish. Yes, I think we pretty

1006
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 2: much figured it all out. What do you think?

1007
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we figured it all out. Thank you

1008
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: so much for listening to us try to figure it out.

1009
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: At least, thank you for writing us five stars. If

1010
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: you have already. If you haven't, please do it. Helps

1011
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: so much, and buy our march. Is that what you're

1012
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: about to say?

1013
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: A lot that? Yes, indeed five stars. Please if you

1014
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 2: like us, and also if you like us, buy our

1015
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 2: merch bit dot l y slash trust me Merch. That's

1016
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: all that's my plug.

1017
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,919
Speaker 1: Okay, wonderful. As always, remember to follow your gut, watch

1018
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: out for red.

1019
00:57:53,520 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 2: Flags, and never ever trust me. Y bye. Trust Me

1020
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 2: as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1021
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1022
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1023
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1024
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1025
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1026
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: I'm Uhla Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1027
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bbraham

1028
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1029
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word