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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is there are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: So it's probably no surprise to find out that the Internet,

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Speaker 1: particularly social media, is linked to all of us not

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Speaker 1: feeling so great. And I have a theory about this

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Speaker 1: and I want to bring to you all and to

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Speaker 1: do that, I am joined by my producer, Michael A Motto. Michael,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me. Bridget. I'm excited to talk about being miserable.

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Speaker 1: It's like your favorite topic, you know, not really, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of. I mean, I I it's funny that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this. Like I think of myself as a

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Speaker 1: fairly like a person with a fairly sunny disposition. I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty smiley. I'm kind of a look on the bright

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Speaker 1: side type. But I definitely feel lately like something is up.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that we're more miserable, more tense,

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Speaker 1: more stress, and we're bringing in that more and more

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Speaker 1: to our online spaces. And so I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: really talking through what I think is going on and

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Speaker 1: what it means for all of us. Yeah, I'm looking

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Speaker 1: forward to hearing your thoughts on it, because I totally

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Speaker 1: agree it's it's hard out there. There's just so much

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Speaker 1: heavy stuff going on and a lot of it feels

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Speaker 1: totally intractable, and uh yes, So I'm glad you got

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you gotta figured out what's what's the story?

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Speaker 1: Bridget So first I should say that this is not

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Speaker 1: totally new ground. I think I've mentioned this on the

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Speaker 1: show before, but a study out of Harvard Business School

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Speaker 1: found that negativity travels much further and faster on social media,

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Speaker 1: particularly Twitter, much faster than positive stories, because you know,

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Speaker 1: we all just love to hate. But my question is

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Speaker 1: not just about social media. I am more wondering is

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Speaker 1: it us. Are we, both as individual roles and as

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Speaker 1: a collective citizenry of the United States, are we in

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Speaker 1: such a state of fear and anxiety and overwhelm and

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Speaker 1: exhaustion right now that when we show up to online

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Speaker 1: spaces that we're just bringing more anger and negativity with us.

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Speaker 1: On top of all the ways that we know social

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Speaker 1: media platforms and algorithms are made to amplify things that

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Speaker 1: we hate and negativity, of course, but I'm asking something

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Speaker 1: else I'm asking, is it us? And I want to

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Speaker 1: be clear. I usually show up to these kinds of

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Speaker 1: conversations with lots of research and studies to back up

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I want to be clear, this is

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Speaker 1: pretty much one anecdotal you know. I have a few

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Speaker 1: recent examples I think demonstrate a little bit of what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about and what I'm seeing online. And if

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Speaker 1: you are very online, like I am, for better or

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Speaker 1: for worse, you might have actually seen some of these

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Speaker 1: examples play out in real time. And I think the

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Speaker 1: way that people acted to them and the discourse that

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Speaker 1: popped up around them on social media tells us something

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Speaker 1: about where we're at right now. Ask people. I know, Michael,

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Speaker 1: you are not someone who really identifies as being very online,

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Speaker 1: am I right? Yeah, that's right. I historically have not

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Speaker 1: been very online. I in the early parts of like

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Speaker 1: the Internet and the nineties and the early aughts, I

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Speaker 1: was a lot more and then I just really took

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Speaker 1: a pretty big step back from social media h much

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Speaker 1: to the betterment of my mental health, I think. But

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Speaker 1: over the past year or two I have really increased

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Speaker 1: my use of Twitter a lot. And yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: the question of like is it us? You know, how

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Speaker 1: much of it is is the platforms, but then how

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Speaker 1: much of it is us being affected by the platforms

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Speaker 1: and then bringing that back and just continuing, uh, continuing

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Speaker 1: that feed back loop. You might actually be the most

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Speaker 1: offline person who is kind of in my peer group,

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Speaker 1: like if I don't include my parents and people who

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Speaker 1: are who are not in my peer group, not contemporaries

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Speaker 1: of mine. Sometimes we'll have our podcast planning meetings and

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Speaker 1: I'll be like, oh my god, did you see this

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Speaker 1: thing on the internet, Like this cat is being accused

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Speaker 1: of being able list on Twitter? And You'll be like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what any of these words mean. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what you're saying, like what's happening here? And

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Speaker 1: so I you do happy? It seems to come with

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Speaker 1: a level of bliss that I envy. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I stress about other things. Yeah, you're always stressing about something.

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear, You're not like Mr then

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Speaker 1: just not, You're just not stressing about something that strangers

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Speaker 1: are doing on the internet necessarily. Yeah, like whether or

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Speaker 1: not the cat is ablest, you know, like it shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be right. We should all be inclusive and work for

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Speaker 1: universal design, but like, you know, you know how cats are. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I want to get into these I've got I've

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Speaker 1: I've got them. Lay it out as sort of three vignettes,

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Speaker 1: if you will. Uh. The first I'm calling woman enjoys

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Speaker 1: coffee in garden, comma with husband. So this was the

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Speaker 1: tweet that the first tweet that really stopped me, and

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Speaker 1: I had to contend with what I think. I think

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Speaker 1: I would describe as an outsized reaction to what I

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Speaker 1: thought was a fairly normal tweet. A woman tweeted something

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Speaker 1: pretty innocuous. She said, quote, my husband and I wake

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Speaker 1: up every morning and bring our coffee out to our

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Speaker 1: garden and sit and talk for hours every morning. It

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Speaker 1: never gets old. We never run out of things to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Love him so much. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: think most people might see a tweet like this and

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Speaker 1: I might think, how nice for her, what a nice morning.

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Speaker 1: Others might see a tweet like this and think nothing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I think it's I don't think it's out of the

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Speaker 1: remal possibility that somebody might see this tweet and think,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh, she's bragging. Don't like it feels braggy,

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Speaker 1: But then keep scrolling, keep moving on, No big deal.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is a lot of people had a

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Speaker 1: very visceral reaction to this tweet. They did not keep

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Speaker 1: just keep scrolling. They expressed themselves. So pretty much all

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Speaker 1: hell broke loose on Twitter because of this tweet. And

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of samples of responses that I

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Speaker 1: witnessed with my own eyes, right, So I only want

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Speaker 1: to talk about things that I actually saw intervial time, because,

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Speaker 1: as I said, I'm very online, so I watched all

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Speaker 1: of these things unfold intervial time. Uh. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that says about how I spend my time, but whatever,

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Speaker 1: here we go. The sad ways that I spend my

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Speaker 1: time is your gain, because I'm here to tell you

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Speaker 1: about them if you miss them. Well, you know when

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Speaker 1: you were saying, like a lot of people said nothing,

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Speaker 1: and I was thinking, just sitting here, thinking like what

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Speaker 1: does it mean that so many people reacted to that

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Speaker 1: tweet that you read about this woman sitting in the

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Speaker 1: garden with her husband, you know, and like, Okay, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's a little tweet, but like it's pretty innocuous. She's

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Speaker 1: not really like she's certainly not harming anyone, she's not

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Speaker 1: making any controversial claims like and so the fact that

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Speaker 1: so many people would have that reaction and actively write

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Speaker 1: a response to it, I was like, Wow, how sad

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Speaker 1: for them. Uh, But then here you are paying attention

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Speaker 1: and thinking about what those other people are writing, and

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Speaker 1: so like you, you're pretty far in it. Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: in it. No one is saying that I listen, I

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Speaker 1: just before we even get into the vignettes, I am

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Speaker 1: very much contextualized within this very online culture. I am

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Speaker 1: the call is coming from inside the house. I am

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Speaker 1: critiquing it from within. I am not. I don't want

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Speaker 1: anyone to think that I see myself as you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of above it moral high ground. I'm in it.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm in them. I'm down in the muck.

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Speaker 1: I'm with all of you. Okay. So here are some

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Speaker 1: of the reactions that I saw to that tweet. The

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Speaker 1: first bucket was people basically being like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you must be rich, you know, people saying that she

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Speaker 1: must be independently wealthy or very rich and very privileged.

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Speaker 1: If she's able to enjoy coffee, have a garden, and

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Speaker 1: spend her her and her partner are both able to

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Speaker 1: spend their mornings not working. I saw a tweet where

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Speaker 1: someone was like, don't y'all work, don't y'all have jobs?

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Speaker 1: And she said, oh, I have a small business, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm able to make my own schedule. Then I

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Speaker 1: saw another reply to that where they said, okay, so

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Speaker 1: you're able to have your peaceful mornings because you're exploiting

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Speaker 1: the labor of your employees and that gives you the

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Speaker 1: ability to enjoy your mornings. Terrible, And she replied, I'm

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Speaker 1: a sole employee of my business. So just a lot

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Speaker 1: of assumptions about her economic status and her privilege, all

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Speaker 1: via her having a garden, her drinking coffee, her spending

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Speaker 1: the morning's talking to her husband. Yeah, all assumptions coming

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Speaker 1: from the worst possible place of like giving her no

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Speaker 1: benefit of any doubt, just like people actively wanting the

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Speaker 1: most like, meanest and worst possible way. It could be

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Speaker 1: true to be the case, Yes, that she's definitely exploiting

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Speaker 1: her employees in order to have like she must be

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Speaker 1: doing something bad if she's able to be enjoying this

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Speaker 1: like these like nice mornings consistently. So another kind of

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Speaker 1: bucket of responses that I saw were contrasting how she

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Speaker 1: described her own mornings and what they look like with

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Speaker 1: their mornings, and so people whose mornings didn't sound great,

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Speaker 1: you know, plagued by things like insomnia, anxiety, loneliness, chronic

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Speaker 1: pain or fatigue. Um, and yeah, when you compare waking

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Speaker 1: up in the morning feeling lonely and in pain and

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Speaker 1: really exhausted in drained, that does not sound as nice

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Speaker 1: as waking up in the morning and having coffee in

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Speaker 1: a garden. Sure, but again, interesting how when someone puts there,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty innocuous happy thing out into the world,

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Speaker 1: people's responses can sometimes be like, well, good for you.

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Speaker 1: I'm not having a happy morning. My mornings aren't that happy.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a garden, I don't have a partner. Um.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, like a like a very personalized response to

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Speaker 1: her kind of innocuous happy tweet, which I guess it's

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Speaker 1: like fair right, Like she tweeted it publicly. People can

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Speaker 1: tweet back if they if they want. But yes, it's

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Speaker 1: like you're like, oh, you're happy, how I'm not. You

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be either. The thing that you feel good about

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Speaker 1: you should feel bad. Yeah. I saw one response that

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Speaker 1: was so specific that they replied to her tweet about

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Speaker 1: the garden and the coffee and having coffee in the

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Speaker 1: garden in the morning. Where I live, the winter snow

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Speaker 1: is already starting and my patio is uncovered. As I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, like tough break. I can't afford

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Speaker 1: a covered patio, like one of those capitalists fat cats

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Speaker 1: out here the common people with the uncovered patio. Right.

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Speaker 1: So another bucket of response that I saw were people

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Speaker 1: saying that it's completely unrealistic to enjoy talking to one

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Speaker 1: spouse for hours because most people hate their spouses. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to spend any time talking to them, and

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Speaker 1: other people saying that like that sounded really braggy and

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Speaker 1: insensitive because so many people are lonely and single. And

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Speaker 1: then just to claim that like people. I guess people

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Speaker 1: went back to her, you know, wedding pictures and stuff

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Speaker 1: and glean that she had only been married for a

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Speaker 1: couple of months, and it's like, well, yeah, to to

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Speaker 1: three months. In sure, you still think your husband is

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Speaker 1: brilliant and you enjoy talking to him. Try ten years

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Speaker 1: and maybe you'll think he's an idiot and you can't

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Speaker 1: even stand the sound of its fucking breathing. You'll want

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Speaker 1: to hate him with that coffee cup, you know, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's probably gonna heapen but litterally enjoy the moment. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean. Also it's like she's a newlywed, like she's

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Speaker 1: allowed to still be in the phase where she enjoys

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Speaker 1: the company of her husband and then and like talking

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Speaker 1: to him as a fun time. Um. One thing that

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Speaker 1: I should note is that in my depths of all

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Speaker 1: of this, I did see accusations that the original Garden

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Speaker 1: Lady poster, who definitely gives off like spiritual Earth Mama vibes,

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Speaker 1: that she posts anti vax content and tread wife content,

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Speaker 1: which if you don't know what that is, we did

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Speaker 1: an episode with Joe Piazza all about it, so definitely

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Speaker 1: check it out. Um. I have to say, I cannot

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Speaker 1: confirm or deny any of that from just the cursory

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Speaker 1: look that I took at her social media. But I

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Speaker 1: almost wonder if it was a pylon first and then

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Speaker 1: people find the tweets that quote justify why they did

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Speaker 1: the pylon, if that makes sense. Like I almost wonder

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Speaker 1: if it's like, well, are you saying that it's okay

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Speaker 1: to pile to pile on someone for like tweeting something

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Speaker 1: innocuous because six months ago they also had some bad

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Speaker 1: takes on vaccines or whatever. Or is it like or

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Speaker 1: like like like, are you are you using this to

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Speaker 1: justify some behavior that maybe now you're like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at that. I kind of wish I hadn't tweet

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Speaker 1: at that. Yeah, I mean I looked at it after

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Speaker 1: you sent it to me ahead of this episode, and

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Speaker 1: I saw a lot of people criticizing the garden tweet.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see anything about, you know, correcting misinformation or

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Speaker 1: putting out like accurate vaccine information, because like, how is

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Speaker 1: that even relevant to this lady tweeting about drinking coffee

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Speaker 1: in her garden. It's not, it's not. This is not

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Speaker 1: going to make me sound great, and I'm fully aware

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Speaker 1: of that, but I just know the vibe of really

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Speaker 1: going all in on criticizing something or someone and then

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Speaker 1: needing to justify that to be like, well, I'm not

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Speaker 1: the asshole here. She actually said this back in and

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Speaker 1: that's why it's okay that here in two I've done

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Speaker 1: this to her, you know what I mean? So I

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Speaker 1: just I really viscerally get that experience because I I've

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Speaker 1: I've been there Yeah, we've all been there. We can

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Speaker 1: identify with the idea of finding finding some post talk justification. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we humans do that all the time. So probably my

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Speaker 1: favorite response to all of this, the tweet and the

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Speaker 1: discourse came from Asia Barber, who if you don't know

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Speaker 1: who that is, they are a brilliant writer on fashion

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Speaker 1: and sustainability and influencing an online culture. Definitely give them

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Speaker 1: a follow because they're brilliant, and also buy their book Consumed,

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Speaker 1: because it's also really good. But they make this really

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Speaker 1: interesting point that people's reaction to Coffee Garden Lady is

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Speaker 1: actually an understandable reaction to an online culture built on comparison.

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Speaker 1: Asia rites quote, I genuinely think social media has gotten

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Speaker 1: us to this miserable place where folks are tired of

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Speaker 1: being happy for other people. It's the impact of comparison culture,

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Speaker 1: while everyone pretends it doesn't exist. Basically, they go on

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Speaker 1: to argue that we're all trained to be happy for

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Speaker 1: people when good things happen to them, but especially if

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Speaker 1: things in your life are not where you are them

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Speaker 1: to be, it can be really draining to have to

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Speaker 1: have that expectation of performing happiness for others. And since

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Speaker 1: the opposite of happy is, you know, bitter or jealous

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Speaker 1: or rageful or spiteful. That's kind of becomes the default

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Speaker 1: other response, And so they argue that we should all

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Speaker 1: be more comfortable with just having a neutral reaction in

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Speaker 1: those situations, that we shouldn't feel forced or have the

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Speaker 1: expectation of cheering people on all the time if frankly,

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Speaker 1: we just don't have it in us. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that we have to then project all of our

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Speaker 1: hang ups and our challenges and perceived failings and anxieties

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Speaker 1: onto strangers via the internet. As as I writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: instead of being a society where we've normalized feeling neutral

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Speaker 1: about other people being happy, this app instead tells you

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Speaker 1: that you have to have an emotion and if it

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Speaker 1: isn't good, it must be bad, so quick make shut

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Speaker 1: up because you genuinely just don't want to feel happy

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Speaker 1: for this person. And I think that Asia is really

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Speaker 1: onto something that we are. I think there's something about

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Speaker 1: social media that trains us that if we see something,

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Speaker 1: we have to have a like a real reaction to it.

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Speaker 1: We have to either like it and smash like or

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Speaker 1: hate it and like leave a mean reply or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Download it whatever. Like we have kind of lost that

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Speaker 1: you can just see something and feel neutral about it.

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Speaker 1: And I can understand why that is making us kind

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Speaker 1: of emotionally drained and exhausted, where you know, we just

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Speaker 1: don't have a lot of other emotions to give other

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Speaker 1: than anger and uh, spite and bitterness because of that,

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Speaker 1: because of that constant expectation that we always be reacting.

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Speaker 1: But it's okay to not have a take, to be like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this woman's having our coffee. I'm gonna keep scrolling next thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I have to say, even though I

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Speaker 1: live in the middle of the city in d C,

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Speaker 1: I do actually have a garden in my apartment and

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Speaker 1: I have been known to spend a morning out there

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Speaker 1: with a cup of coffee from time to time. And

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Speaker 1: seeing this visceral reaction that everybody had to this coffee

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Speaker 1: garden lady, I'm almost afraid to ever tweet a picture

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Speaker 1: of my garden because I don't want the Internet coming

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Speaker 1: after me. Yeah, and she did eventually tweet a picture

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Speaker 1: of her garden, and it's it's very nice. She's gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, her and her husband is a great job

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Speaker 1: of transforming their suburban lawn of their modest home into

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Speaker 1: a little garden. But it certainly doesn't read like, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's some super rich, out of touch person. She's just

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Speaker 1: just looks like a normal house where normal people live. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like she said, oh, every morning I fly

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Speaker 1: to Paris so I can have authentic Parisian espresso or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I think that we're so drained and so exhausted

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Speaker 1: and so tense and tired as Americans that the littlest

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Speaker 1: stuff some many expressing the smallest bit. I don't, not

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Speaker 1: not even try. I would call this luxury, the smallest

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Speaker 1: bit of something that's not toiling, the smallest bit of

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Speaker 1: something that's not the misery that I think so many

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Speaker 1: of us are rightfully feeling. It's like hits a nerve,

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Speaker 1: it's a little trigger point for us. I get it.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not happy that I get it and

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Speaker 1: identify with it, but I do understand it. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: like you're saying, it's it's two things. It's the having

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Speaker 1: that emotional reaction of like anger or jealousy or resentment

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is, um and then also saying something

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Speaker 1: about it, you know, like not just like feeling annoyed

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Speaker 1: and scrolling past you know, like I said before, I

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Speaker 1: look at Twitter, you know, probably a couple hours a

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Speaker 1: day if you add it all together. And I see

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Speaker 1: ship that I find annoying all the time, but I

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Speaker 1: don't need to weigh in on it. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: and it's I spend I mean even just like literally

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Speaker 1: but for you. And I got on the mic before

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Speaker 1: we were recording, I was like, have you heard about

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Speaker 1: this tech bro who took an uber from Manhattan to Philly?

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Speaker 1: And he says that the three different state governments charged

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Speaker 1: him all these fees, and I was so I was

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Speaker 1: so meticulously He included a screenshot of the different tolls

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Speaker 1: and fees that he was charged, and I was so

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Speaker 1: meticulously going through this. I was like, this is an

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Speaker 1: adding up. Something's not right here. I lived in New York.

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Speaker 1: This is what is its route? And I do think

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Speaker 1: there's something about the Internet that invites too much scrutiny

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Speaker 1: and too much emotional investment into the ongoings of strangers

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Speaker 1: and people and purchased. It's partially due to to the

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Speaker 1: way that algorithms work, Like the reason why I saw

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Speaker 1: Hollin Tunnel tweet most because Twitter it was a trend, right,

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Speaker 1: and so you know someone can eat It's it's so

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Speaker 1: easy to gamify that game of five people's willingness to

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Speaker 1: be become emotionally invested in the business of strangers. It's

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Speaker 1: so easy to gamify that against us. Yeah, there's the

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Speaker 1: algorithm that really incentivizes negative content, right, because it's just

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Speaker 1: it's just an empirical fact that algorithms reward negative content

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Speaker 1: with more likes, more visibility. But maybe just blaming it

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Speaker 1: all on the algorithm is kind of letting us as

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Speaker 1: a population off a little easy, right, Like why are

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Speaker 1: we showing up that way? Exactly? And that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm hoping to get out in this episode. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's the algorithms. Yes, it's the way that tech leaders

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Speaker 1: have designed these platforms to continue to keep us on edge, angry,

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Speaker 1: and divided for their material benefit. But what's going on

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Speaker 1: with us? Are we are we good? Are we are

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Speaker 1: we all good? So let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: then I want to get into our second then yet

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Speaker 1: and we are back. So we were just talking about

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Speaker 1: the viral garden Lady tweet. And after I saw the

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Speaker 1: garden Lady tweet. I realized that this kind of highly personal,

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Speaker 1: aggrieved response to the innocuous happiness of others was everywhere

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Speaker 1: on social media, like this Garden Lady tweet. Once I

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Speaker 1: saw that I was seeing this kind of response everywhere,

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Speaker 1: which brings me to our next vignette, which I'm calling

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Speaker 1: professor gifts students with books. So in this situation, a

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Speaker 1: college professor who has this very inspiring backstory. He's the

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Speaker 1: son of too incarcerated parents, first in his family to

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Speaker 1: go to college, and now he's a professor. He tweeted

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Speaker 1: a picture of his campus office, which I have to

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Speaker 1: say is just gorgeous. It's like one of those offices

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Speaker 1: from a movie, you know, with the built in bookshelves,

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Speaker 1: where all the walls are shelves, and it's just gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: It's like very meticulously decorated, and it's one of those

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Speaker 1: offices that anybody would die for. It's gorgeous. And he tweeted,

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Speaker 1: quote my rule, any student who comes to my office

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Speaker 1: hours can keep any book on my shelf that they like.

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Speaker 1: All they need to do is ask. I had a

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Speaker 1: professor who used to do this back in college, and

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Speaker 1: I've always remembered how special. It made the teacher student relationship.

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Speaker 1: Let's continue this tradition. Uh that's nice, right, that's very nice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I went to grad school. It's been way more time

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Speaker 1: there than I should have. And uh, what he's describing

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Speaker 1: sounds like the ideal professor scenario. Like it sounds nice,

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Speaker 1: it sounds friendly, it sounds supportive, it sounds generous, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like a nice thing. I also went to grad school. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I ever once went to office hours ever,

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Speaker 1: which is probably not surprising that I ended up dropping out.

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Speaker 1: Had my professors acted like this and and ben like

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Speaker 1: this and you know, cultivated the kind of environment where

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Speaker 1: they were giving out these books as a token of

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Speaker 1: our really our our academic relationship, I might have stuck

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Speaker 1: around grad school. But alas um, I remember seeing this

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Speaker 1: tweet and thinking how nice it was, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I got I got warm fuzzies, and for a while,

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Speaker 1: all of the responses were other academics basically being like,

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Speaker 1: this is really nice. This is really the book the

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Speaker 1: ideal situation that you want between you know, students and

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Speaker 1: teachers where they feel this kind of connection and that

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Speaker 1: connection is crystallized and symbolized in this way. Everyone one

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Speaker 1: was loving it. But then another professor responded, let's call

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Speaker 1: him Professor Petty. Professor Petty responded, accusing book professor of

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Speaker 1: telling everyone what a great guy he was via what

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Speaker 1: he called quote lifestyle porn. Professor Petty wrote, a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of tweets. It was a whole back and forth

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Speaker 1: which I with this, the entire thing go down, h

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Speaker 1: Professor Petty, he's a he's a couple of his. Professor

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Speaker 1: Petty's responses says, you've got a lovely office, dude, and

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Speaker 1: you're rich enough to be able to give away the

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Speaker 1: problem that you decorate your office with. That's not political,

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Speaker 1: that's ghosh. I'm assist white man who's working in an

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Speaker 1: academic environment without a giant office bigger than my living room,

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Speaker 1: nor with enough money or budget to give away the

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Speaker 1: things that I need to do my job. To any

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Speaker 1: student who asks check yourself. He goes on to say,

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Speaker 1: just seems to me like highly curated, performative, humble brags

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Speaker 1: made superciliously from positions of extreme, unexamined privilege don't form

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Speaker 1: the basis of inherently radical politics. You may disagree, I

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Speaker 1: guess how can I do more than one thing at once.

428
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: If I've given the books I need for my job away,

429
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: you seem to treat books as props and window dressing

430
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: rather than tools of the trade. Super weird. I donate

431
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: things that I don't need or have dupes of, but

432
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: giving away books on request odd. So Professor Petty really yeah,

433
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: he Professor Petty did not like this, and he really

434
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: wanted like this was I read them as one pair rack,

435
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: but this was like a bunch of tweets. He was

436
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: like back in forth, really digging in. Super sillious. Even

437
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: I know, I also love like what I like academic

438
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: e sounding drag. This is, I guess I'll say, yeah,

439
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: it's it's so petty. I don't know, so I don't

440
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: know how many people you follow in like academic Twitter,

441
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: but definitely professors like tweeting about what it means to

442
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: be a good professor and providing good mentorship and like

443
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: different ways to be a good mentor. That's like a

444
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: common thing that people post about, right, So book professor

445
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: is I think totally within those normal boundaries of talking

446
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: about it. And you know, it sounds like things are

447
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: working out pretty well for book professor, and that's great.

448
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: You know, lots of people have nice things happen to them.

449
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that they're bad. Yes, And I should

450
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: also reveal one of the reasons why the optics of

451
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: this just weren't great was that book professor is black

452
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: and Professor Petty is white. And so the optics of

453
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: a white professor scolding a black professor and calling him

454
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: privileged and saying, you know, you're you've got all this

455
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: unexamined privilege and I don't have a big office and

456
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: you do, and that's bad. It's just not a great look,

457
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: it's really not And also being a professor who like

458
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: can't do his job without his books, it sounds pretty

459
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: grim for Professor Petty. Yes, and you know, I also

460
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: think that the way that Professor Petty reframed those tweets

461
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: and his responses really strip away a lot of the

462
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: context of professor books, you know, his background as an

463
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: academic who faced all of these challenges to get where

464
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: he is, kind of returning the favor of this kind

465
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: gesture that a professor did to him when he was

466
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: coming up. Professor Petty really just flattens that situation. It

467
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: takes all the new nuance out of it and turns

468
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: it into someone humble bracking on the internet. But that's

469
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: not really the spirit of what Professor Books said in

470
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: the first place. Yeah, it really isn't. And you know,

471
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't know where Professor Petty works, but it's probably

472
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: not like a fourteenth century monastery where there's like three

473
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: books that a team of monks has been working on

474
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: over generations. You know, like there's a lot of books.

475
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: Most professors I know who have offices and universities have

476
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: more books than they know what to do with, right,

477
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: and so giving away books to students it's pretty common.

478
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, it's it's it is completely common, and

479
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: so as they do. Black academia. Twitter really came together

480
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: to gather Professor Petty and support Professor Books, and eventually

481
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: Professor Petty deleted his tweets and apologized, saying that he

482
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: was taking his frustrations with academia out on the wrong person,

483
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: which yeah, obviously I think I could tell I mean

484
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: this person, and yeah, you didn't do anything wrong. You're

485
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 1: taking all your anger out on him, And partially I

486
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: get it, right, if you're an academic sitting in your

487
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: tiny office watching everybody give props and accolades to another

488
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: academic in their big, gleaming, beautiful office. Of course, I

489
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: think it's a little bit understandable for that to feel

490
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: sort of personal, you know, And I am super again

491
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: I don't love that. I sort of partially get it

492
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: because I am super familiar with that feeling of why

493
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: not me? Why do I have to cheer on others

494
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: who have the things that I want but don't have

495
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: access to. Part of me gets that because yeah, I'm

496
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: a petty bitch. I've I've I've definitely felt that thought

497
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: that before. Who hasn't. But I also think that it

498
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: seems like it's very easy to get riled up by

499
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: something that a stranger post as a proxy for your

500
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: feelings about assist amic or institutional frustration, right, because sometimes

501
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: the villain is some something like big and lofty. You know,

502
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: the college that you teach at is underfunding your department

503
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: or not investing in infrastructure, so your office is horrible

504
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: and tiny. But those things do not have, you know,

505
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: visible Twitter accounts that you can yell at and like

506
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: yell your grievances toward other academics tweeting pictures of their big,

507
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: cool offices. They do they're much more visible and easier

508
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: to take your frustrations out on. Yeah, I cannot understand.

509
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: There's plenty of things in academia to be frustrated and

510
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: angry about, but like you said, don't take them out

511
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: on a professor who is just trying to do something

512
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: nice for students. You know, maybe it is a little

513
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: eye rollie, you know, if that's how you feel, fine,

514
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: But uh, I guess after all this, I kind of

515
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: feel sorry for Professor Petty that he's in such a bad,

516
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: dire emotional play that like just like bubbled over and

517
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: he felt that he had to express his frustration on

518
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: on professor books. Well, this is exactly what I'm saying.

519
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: I think that we're all I think that we're in

520
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: a state of constant emotionality and and and kind of

521
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: like I think that for a lot of us feeling

522
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: bleak right now, and so we're on this hair we're

523
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: showing up to online spaces on this hair trigger that

524
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: I don't know that I've really felt the same way before.

525
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: And I guess that's exactly what my what my claim is, Yeah,

526
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: Professor Petty probably would have had a much nicer night

527
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: if he just like went out and talked with his friends,

528
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, or when scrolling Twitter saw that picture

529
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: had the whatever reaction he had clocked it, asked himself

530
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: a couple of leading questions, like, oh, this is really

531
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: you're really annoyed about this? Why that would lead him

532
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: to the the result of like, oh, I'm frustrated with

533
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: my own situation in academia. I have frustrations about what's

534
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: happening on my own campus, and that's I think that

535
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: would be so much more productive. And maybe he it's

536
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: it's almost like he got there eventually, but I think

537
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: he could have had a much nicer time if he

538
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: got there without being dragged by all of black academic

539
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: Twitter with like with withering, fucking takedowns. You know, black

540
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: Twitter users are like a like a sharp tengued bunch too,

541
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: so I'm sure some of those had to hurt. Yeah,

542
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: that probably sucked. If he felt bad before, he probably

543
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: feels worse now exactly. And so this actually reminded me

544
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: of you know, I said earlier that it's been a

545
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: while since I feel like I've seen people showing up

546
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: on this like hair trigger with misery and anxiety, And

547
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: it actually reminded me of the way that I felt

548
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: in the early days of the pandemic, you know, I

549
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: and like that was a hard time for all of

550
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: us and easy for me to be my you know,

551
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: apertment garden feeling whatever I was feeling. But you know,

552
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: I remember, I would get super upset and super angry

553
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: about all of these pictures of maskless patrons at crowded

554
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: bars and restaurants. And this was during the part of

555
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: the pandemic where I was like pretty deeply distancing, and

556
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: so I was really feeling the emotional and physical and

557
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: the mental strain of all that distancing. It was not

558
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: a great time, and I would get almost like deeply

559
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: irrationally rageful at these images, and I would have to

560
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: do the work of reminding myself, Like, Okay, Bridget, are

561
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: you really mad that this like nineteen year old college

562
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: student in wherever I went to this crowded bar? Or

563
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: are you mad that like institutions and people and people

564
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: with power and political leaders should have made better options

565
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: to support people? Right, maybe our political leaders should have

566
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: taken bolder action to keep those bars closed and like

567
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: meaningfully paid and supported people to stay home, and you know,

568
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: made better decisions to keep people safe, Like, there's there

569
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: was no picture of that on social media. What I

570
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: did have was pictures of like nineteen year old college

571
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: students partying. Let's be real, when I was nineteen, I

572
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: probably would have been partying during a pandemic too, because

573
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't very smart. But I had to really work

574
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: to remind myself that just because the people I am

575
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: seeing partying every single time I opened my social media

576
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: apps are so visible, the actual thing that I am

577
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: angry about is not them partying, is that our leaders

578
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: have failed us so bad that it turned it into

579
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: like a personal choice, and that those places were available

580
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: to be overcrowded and all of that. Like, but it

581
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: is work, and I think that so often we are

582
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: using people who are visible as a proxy for our anger,

583
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: which is often times rightful about something that is institutional

584
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: and not so visible, which brings me to my last

585
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: man yette, which we'll get into after a real quick break.

586
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: Let's get right back into it. So we were talking

587
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: about how sometimes are anger on social media, we're using

588
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: visible people as proxies for our anger, that maybe it

589
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: would be better directed toward institutions, which brings me to

590
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: my last one. Yet which I'm calling woman complains about

591
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: male shoppers for grocery delivery. App Let me set the

592
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 1: stage for you. So, are you familiar with the joke

593
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: women be shopping? Women be shopping? Is there more to

594
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: the No, that's the whole thing. Okay, I'm familiar with it. Then, Okay,

595
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: Well this is basically that in reverse, which is men

596
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: don't be shopping. Uh So, it's just like pretty well

597
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: worn online discourse that pops up online fairly regularly, and

598
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: it's the idea that men are bad grocery shoppers. They

599
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: pick bad fruit. You know, you can't trust them to

600
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: pick a good avocado, Well, will get the worst one.

601
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: They don't know where stuff is if you don't give

602
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: them a meticulous list, will come back with the wrong thing.

603
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: Women need to essentially FaceTime men and like walk them

604
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: virtually through a grocery store for them to get to

605
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: be able to do anything right, to the point where

606
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 1: it's almost better to just do it. If you're sending

607
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: a man to shop for you, it's almost better just

608
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: do it yourself because he's gonna do a terrible job.

609
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: And so this discourse definitely plays into a lot of

610
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: like hot button topics around gender and things like that, right,

611
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: it it deals with domestic labor like grocery shopping being

612
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: kind of assigned as female labor. You know, the idea

613
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: of men uh beenizing their incompetence, which basically means like

614
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: being so bad at grocery shopping that they won't even

615
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: do it, and so like the woman will just do

616
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: it herself even if they are a sensibly being paid

617
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: to the person who tweeted the tweet I'm about to

618
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: read didn't say what grocery delivery app that she was using,

619
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,919
Speaker 1: you know, whether it was a go puff or insta cart.

620
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: But it really dips into our expectations around how we

621
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: treat gig workers who are mostly being like paid sub

622
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: optimal wages and likely being misclassified as an independent contractor

623
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: to do the labor of someone else, and just the

624
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: general ethics around gig work in general, which I know

625
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: is a hot button issue. All of this is to

626
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: say that you already know this is gonna be a

627
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: topic where everyone has an opinion, just a flashpoint of

628
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of different things. So last week a woman tweeted,

629
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: quote my last time using grocery delivery, and I got

630
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: a man he started refunding stuff that I knew, dang

631
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: well the store had. I was so pissed. I got

632
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: in the car and went to the store. He was

633
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: at bro was literally standing in one aisle on the phone.

634
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: The tweet got over seventy likes, almost four thousand retweets,

635
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: and too many responses to count. So you're just standing

636
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: there on his phone. Yeah, I think he was just

637
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: I think that she's trying to say he was just

638
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: standing there on his phone saying things that she knew

639
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: that they had in stock were out of stock, and

640
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: like being like, oh, refund, oh refund if you if

641
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: you have not used instat cart, if they go to

642
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: the store and they don't have a thing that you want,

643
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: they just refunded. And so she's saying that he was

644
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: just refunded, refunded, refunded, and not actually shopping, just like

645
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: refunding everything. Well, of the three fignettes, I'm pretty sympathetic

646
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: to to what are wecalling her. Unhappy grocery lady. Unhappy

647
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: grocery lady. I mean that does so kind of annoying.

648
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: I am with you there, and Okay, so these are

649
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: the buckets of responses that I saw so some people thought,

650
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: you know everyone, or some people kind of are like

651
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: you right that, Like everyone has a right to expect

652
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: that if they're paying for a service, that sort of

653
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: should be done correctly. Like if you paid to get

654
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: a haircut and the barber messed up your hair, most

655
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: people will be like, oh, well, it's reasonable to complain

656
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: about that, because you should get what you pay for. Um.

657
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: Other people thought that the woman who initially made the

658
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: tweet was coming off as like lazy and entitled, right, Like,

659
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: if you're gonna complain about the person shopping for you,

660
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: you should get the groceries yourself. And one of those

661
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: responses came from George's the Cat. You may remember George

662
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: the Cat. Are you familiar with George the Cat? Yeah,

663
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with George, so you may remember George the Cat.

664
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: He rose to Twitter fame after a viral asque Creddit

665
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: post about two cats, one name Jeans and the other

666
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: name George's, who lived in an office together. Um, and

667
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: George has turned into something of a I guess a

668
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: leftist celebrity cat on Twitter. George's or whoever is running

669
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: this Twitter page on George's behalf replied to his over

670
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: two d thousand followers idea go get your own groceries,

671
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: and this response did not go over well. Um, some

672
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: disability advocates pointed out that, especially during a pandemic, that

673
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: not everyone actually can go get their own groceries, and

674
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: so George was accused of perpetuating able ism for this response,

675
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: and so the entire discourse kind of got a little

676
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: complicated after that, and some of the accusations that I

677
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: saw were, like, it sounds like this discourse has reached

678
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: a weird conclusion where some folks are, you know, defending

679
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: an able bodied woman in confronting a gig worker at

680
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: a grocery store, you know, by using the fact that

681
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: people with disabilities need to sometimes have to rely on

682
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: services like insta cart to do so. So the converse

683
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: the discourse just got very complicated and very big and

684
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: very involved. And I think it's a good example of

685
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: exactly what I was talking about before, how anything except

686
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: the visible individuals are kind of just removed from the conversation, right,

687
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: And so most people are either blaming the quote entitled

688
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: grocery lady or the quote lazy, bad male shopper, because

689
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: that's so much easier and more visible than grappling with

690
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: any kind of a bigger picture. So looking at the

691
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: politics of apps like insta Cart or go puff for instance,

692
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: or the people who designed the app. And I also

693
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: think when gig apps like insta carts oftentimes have exploitation

694
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: built into them as a feature. Of course, nobody has

695
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: having a good time. The person who is being underpaid

696
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: to shop is probably not having a great time. The

697
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 1: person who feels that they were getting sub optimal service

698
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: because that person is underpaid for that labor, it's also

699
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: not having a great time. And so I think it's

700
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: one of those situations where the real villain is the

701
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: app or the more more specifically the tech leaders who

702
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: build the app and get rich off of it. Yeah, slutely.

703
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 1: And people have complained about poor working conditions at insta

704
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: Cart for a long time, and they there's a unionization effort.

705
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: I think, like, what was that like a year ago

706
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: now that they you know, fought and and suppressed and yeah,

707
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: maybe if they paid their workers decently, called them workers,

708
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: treated them as workers, and uh, you know, worked with them,

709
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: they would be able to provide the level of service

710
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: that grocery lady is looking for. But they choose not

711
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: to do that. You know, it's like it's hard to

712
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: really fault. You know, there's some some gig worker for

713
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 1: not taking the gig work seriously because it's gig work,

714
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: and you know, it's probably not how I would have

715
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: done it, But I don't know what's going on with

716
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: this guy. And I also think this idea, you know,

717
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,959
Speaker 1: when people talked about people with disabilities and the fact

718
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: that they often do have to rely on services like

719
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: insta Cart to get their groceries, I think again that's

720
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: a situation where the failing is institutional, because people with

721
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: disabilities should have accessible, reliable, affordable services to help them

722
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: live their lives and to get them the things that

723
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: they need in their lives with, you know, and instead

724
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: they're given this a private app like insta Cart that

725
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: really functions more like a pricey luxury service and so

726
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: it's not super accessible that has all this exploitation built

727
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: into it. Um never mind the fact that I'm sure

728
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: there's lots of disabled folks who work who are forced

729
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: to do gig work and are being underpaid, and so

730
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: again I think these are are issues are really institutional,

731
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: but so often it's easier to blame the visible parties.

732
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's not the tech leaders who get rich

733
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: off of apps like insta cart or the institutional failings.

734
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: These people and things are not so easy to find

735
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: and yell at on Twitter. But the person who tweeted

736
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: about having a bad experience on instacart, well, she sure is.

737
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: She's very easy to find. He tweeted about it. Yeah, absolutely,

738
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: And it's there's more of that same post talk justification,

739
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: like with garden Lady, where after the fact, after people

740
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: were already piling on, they were searching for reasons to

741
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: dislike her, you know, like, oh, she's anti vax which

742
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: maybe she's, maybe she's not. I have no idea. But

743
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: obviously the whole reason that everybody was tweeting about her

744
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: wasn't because of her positions about vaccination, right, It was

745
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: just some justification people found after the fact to justify

746
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: what they all already wanted to do. And you know,

747
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: suggesting that this seemingly able bodied person just go and

748
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: get her own groceries. It's you know, it's like a

749
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: level of snark that one would exist on the Internet.

750
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: But ah, but it does feel like people were piling

751
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: on and like looking for reasons to support one side

752
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: or the other because of problems caused by those larger

753
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: systemic forces and instant cart itself or I guess we

754
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: don't know if it was instant cart, but whatever the

755
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: app was, Like you said, they're not visible. Uh, grocery

756
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: lady is visible, George is visible. Unfortunately the gig worker

757
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: wasn't visible. I know, I what if he tweeted his

758
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: side of the story, like, lady, I'm getting paid nothing

759
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: to do this. Okay, He's probably out there, has no

760
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: idea any of this is happening. He's probably knowing how

761
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: men grocery shop probably out there are stuck in the

762
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: aisle trying to pick a good avocado. He was just

763
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: trying to call somebody to come help him fight his

764
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: way out. Meanwhile, there are celebrity cats tweeting about him.

765
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: We we live in such a weird, weird timeline, like

766
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: like the such a weird timeline, And that cat probably

767
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: makes way more than he does. Oh for sure, no

768
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: question in my mind, how was that George is an

769
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: office cat? Like George's making money, He's given books to

770
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: little kittens. I know. I want the controversies to fold

771
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: back in on themselves, where someone is angry that it

772
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: has a nice office and is gifting books to kittens

773
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: and doing it in a garden. M that's the worst part,

774
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: that he's doing it in a garden. So all of

775
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: this is to say that, you know, I saw lots

776
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: of people in response to all of these vignettes being like, Wow,

777
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: people are so miserable. You know, I would never share

778
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: my happy moment with with the internet because people are

779
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: so miserable they're just going to crap all over it.

780
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: And I kind of agree, not in the you know,

781
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: kind of snarky like, oh you're so miserable, log off,

782
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: touch grass kind of way. I meet it in the

783
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: real way. I think that we as Americans are just

784
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: really miserable right now. We're living through a pandemic economic instability,

785
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: climate instability, worsening division, political anxiety, and our institutions, who

786
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: are offensibly here to provide us support, really showed us

787
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: that we're kind of just on our own. And I

788
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: think everyone is exhausted. We're working more and more and more.

789
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: The cost of everything is going up, and so this

790
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: is not sustainable. People have less leisure time, less time

791
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: to rest or even just process things. And so I

792
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: feel like as a result, we're all just showing up

793
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: tense and anxious and on edge. And when we are

794
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 1: showing up online, we're bringing all of that tension with us.

795
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: And of course this is all exploited by social media

796
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: platforms that we already know specifically feed as content that

797
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: enrages us and encourages us to pile on strangers and

798
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: turn them into proxies for our pain. And I guess

799
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: I just want better for us. I want better for

800
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: all of us. Yeah, we deserve it. I mean it.

801
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: It is kind of a great American tradition to like

802
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: find proxies and blame them for our problems. But it

803
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: seems to really be showing up in a different way

804
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: now that now that we've got social media. Yeah, I mean.

805
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: And to be clear, people have been miserable since forever.

806
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: There's gonna be miserable people out there until the end,

807
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: until the end of time, and they've always been there.

808
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: But I think social media obviously is inflaming something in us.

809
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: And I think as we grapple with you know, what

810
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: it means to be a person in which is not

811
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: always so fun, I think it can put us in

812
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: a situation where it's really locking us into a cycle

813
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: of misery where we're angry intense, algorithms are showing us

814
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: things that are that are making us even more angry intense,

815
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: and the cycle continues, and I just want better, and

816
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: we all realize it. Like it's kind of surprising when

817
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: you say it like that, that like we all know

818
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: what makes us angry, intense and anxious. Uh, and you know,

819
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: reduces our ability to pay attention to things. It doesn't

820
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: really seem sustainable, right, Like what don't you think like

821
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: irrational people would figure out something else. I don't. I

822
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: don't know what that is. Like obviously, I like the internet,

823
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, I work on this show even but like

824
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. It feels like this isn't it, This

825
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: ain't it, this saint it. I can tell you. I

826
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: can tell you this is not it. And honestly, this

827
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 1: is a lot of like wild speculation and anecdotal evidence

828
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: on my part. This is not a typical show that

829
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: we do. You can probably tell. But I also just

830
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: really want to know what you all think. If you're listening,

831
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, have you been feeling this palpable anxiety in

832
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: misery online or off? You know, I've seen people say

833
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't share any of your happy stuff with

834
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: the internet because they're just gonna crap all over it

835
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: and tear it apart. Do you agree? Do you do

836
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: you keep your happy stuff offline because you don't want

837
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: someone to turn you into the next garden lady or

838
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: the next book professor. I'm really curious. Let us know

839
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: how you feel, how you've been dealing with all of this. Um,

840
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 1: if I'm way off base, I want to hear that too.

841
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: You can hit us up at Hello at tangoti dot com.

842
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to hear from you and Michael. Thank

843
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: you so much for being here. I know when something

844
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: is going on on the internet, and I want to

845
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 1: have a kind of offline perspective. I can always count

846
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: on you. Yeah, it's generally pretty pretty offline perspective. Well,

847
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I love talking with you, and

848
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: it's an interesting topic. I'm glid you brought it up

849
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: and wanted to talk about it, and I'm looking forward

850
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: to seeing and hearing what listeners have to say me too.

851
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

852
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

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00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

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Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No

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Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our

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Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help

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Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: And then I have to him with and then I

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Speaker 1: have to m with