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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. In our

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Speaker 1: latest News round Up episode, we were talking about how

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Speaker 1: Nicki Minaj tweeted out her enemies list and how funny

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Speaker 1: it was. But Mike, thinking about it, I guess I

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Speaker 1: also have an enemies list, and it is rare. But

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Speaker 1: you know that since we started the podcast, we have

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Speaker 1: done a few, like just a handful of episodes about

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Speaker 1: my personal feuds.

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Speaker 2: You do have a little bit of an enemy's list.

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of this throwaway joke from an episode

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Speaker 1: of Gilmore Girls when Rory and her roommate Paris are

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Speaker 1: at college and somebody wrote die jerk on their door

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Speaker 1: and they're trying to figure out who did it, and

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Speaker 1: Paris is like, we should all update our enemies lists

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Speaker 1: just to be sure. Consider my enemies list updated for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six because we have a feud. A few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, in our News Roundup, we talked about the

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Speaker 1: Hollow Prayer app. Now you will know the roundup is casual.

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Speaker 1: It is just me giving my off the cuff feelings

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Speaker 1: and takes and opinions. It is not meant to be

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Speaker 1: a deep dive. It's more just my takes on the

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Speaker 1: stories of the week and that week. I had some

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Speaker 1: thoughts about the subscription based prayer app Hollow and some

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Speaker 1: of their spokespeople like Gwen Stefani, Mark Wahlberg, and Chris Pratt,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a moment episode goes out. Surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: people had a lot of opinions about the episode. You

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Speaker 1: said that you got texts from people that you hadn't

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Speaker 1: spoken to in a long time, specifically asking about Chris Pratt.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: It is, yeah, asking, And it's sort of like applauding

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Speaker 2: us for criticizing when I guess. You know, my friend Seth,

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Speaker 2: who has listened to the show for years, but I

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Speaker 2: haven't talked to him in a while, like texted me

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Speaker 2: out of the blue and was like, yeah, give it

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Speaker 2: to him. So yeah, I think it really struck a

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Speaker 2: nerve with people who seem to like your distaste for

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Speaker 2: Chris Pratt seems to be pretty commonly held among a

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Speaker 2: lot of people.

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Speaker 1: The wild thing is, I don't even think I went

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Speaker 1: too hard on Chris Pratt. I held back mostly because

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Speaker 1: I just find him annoying. I don't have If people

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Speaker 1: want a deep dive on my thoughts on Chris Pratt,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to do that. I did not think this

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Speaker 1: episode was that. That's right.

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Speaker 2: We didn't really talk about him all that much. It

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Speaker 2: was like, I went back and listened. It seemed like

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Speaker 2: some pretty mild criticism, and then we moved on and

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Speaker 2: talked way more about other people exactly.

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Speaker 1: So imagine my surprise when Live Action, the anti abortion nonprofit,

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Speaker 1: published what I would describe as a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a hit piece on their blog called and I'm quoting

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Speaker 1: the actual title the blog post on Live Action here,

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Speaker 1: Chris Pratt takes heat for partnering with Catholic pro life

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Speaker 1: hollow app by a freelance writer for the anti abortion

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Speaker 1: organization Live Action named Nancy Flanders. Now, that piece by

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Speaker 1: Nancy Flanders on Live Action's website quotes heavily from our

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Speaker 1: roundup discussion about the hollow app and Chris Pratt. Mike,

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Speaker 1: you are also quoted by name. By the way, I was.

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Speaker 2: I think it's the first time that I have been

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Speaker 2: quoted for my work on this podcast podcast. So it was,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of nice, actually anti abortion. People are

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Speaker 2: targeting me, I must be doing something right.

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Speaker 1: So I do think that Nancy listened to the podcast

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Speaker 1: at least that segment, because she quoted so heavily from it.

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Speaker 1: And I almost wonder if Live Action has some sort

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Speaker 1: of a situation where they have a news alert set

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Speaker 1: for people talking about Chris Pratt and the Hollow App.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you were talking about that. To me that they,

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Speaker 2: you know, it seemed like they must have had some

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Speaker 2: kind of news alert set up. And it does seem

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Speaker 2: that way, because I can't imagine that Nancy just regularly

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Speaker 2: listens to our podcast.

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Speaker 1: Back in December, Nancy Flanders wrote a piece about Gwen

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Speaker 1: Stefani being called out for her partnership with the Hollow

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Speaker 1: App after an episode of a podcast that I Love

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Speaker 1: a Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein came out. And so

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Speaker 1: part of me wonders if Nancy's job is to have

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Speaker 1: a Google news alert set for when any old podcaster

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Speaker 1: mentions the Hollow App unfavorably and to go in and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I actually didn't like you like what you said about

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Speaker 1: this prayer app on your episode. What a job, What

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Speaker 1: a sad job that would be, Nancy Carl, I feel

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Speaker 1: for you, however, if you're listening to this podcast episode,

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Speaker 1: because we're certainly going to put Hollow App and the

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Speaker 1: SEO to get your attention. If that is what's going on.

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Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, Nancy, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: First of all, it is always nice when people engage

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Speaker 1: with my work. I really appreciate it. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: linking to the podcast episode in your live action piece

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Speaker 1: a shout out. As a shout out, I will take it.

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Speaker 1: Always nice to have listeners love a fan. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for listening. But Nancy, Nancy, here is the

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Speaker 1: thing girl. You listen to my segment and then you

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Speaker 1: wrote a piece about it on the anti abortion Live

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Speaker 1: Action blog that basically left out most of what I

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Speaker 1: actually said, My main argument, my substantive criticisms Nancy. Why

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Speaker 1: because if you read Nancy's whole piece without having heard

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Speaker 1: my episode, you might think that my entire beef with

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Speaker 1: the Hollow App is that Chris Pratt is one of

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Speaker 1: their spokespeople, and I personally find Chris Pratt annoying. That's it.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing, according to Nancy bridget Todd doesn't like

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Speaker 1: Chris Pratt and you know what, that is true. I

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Speaker 1: do not particularly like Chris Pratt. We'll get to that,

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Speaker 1: but that is merely a footnote in what I said. Mike,

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Speaker 1: you listen to our conversation, what do you agree? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I went through and was actually started counting words of

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Speaker 2: different things that we talked about in that segment to

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Speaker 2: get like a quantitative measure of how much we talked

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Speaker 2: about Chris Prett. I stopped doing that because I thought

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Speaker 2: it would be a little ridiculous listeners wouldn't actually care.

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Speaker 2: But suffice it to say that, like Chris Pratt was

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Speaker 2: not the majority of what we talked about that segment

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Speaker 2: by a long shot, right. We talked about Mark Welberg,

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Speaker 2: we talked about privacy considerations. Chris Pratt was mentioned, but

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Speaker 2: like I said before, it was just kind of like

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Speaker 2: light criticism, and then we moved on.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the perks of having a data

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Speaker 1: scientist that is also your podcast producer, because if there's

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Speaker 1: one thing Mike's gonna do, it's got some hard numbers

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Speaker 1: to back up what we're saying. So, Nancy, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like what you're asking for is a deep dive episode.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the hollow app very briefly as one

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Speaker 1: of several segments in a news roundup. It seems like

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Speaker 1: you want us to go deeper because you wrote a

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Speaker 1: whole piece about it in which you tagged me. So

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Speaker 1: let's do it. Let's go deeper. Thank you for the suggestion.

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Speaker 1: Let's do the episode that you, Nancy apparently wanted me

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Speaker 1: to make. This one is for you, Nancy Flanders of

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Speaker 1: Live Action, because let me hit you with some facts.

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Speaker 1: The man who funds the Hallow Prayer app also funds

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Speaker 1: our deportation machine. One of his other investments is a

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Speaker 1: fertility and menstrual tracking app that will hand your data

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Speaker 1: over to law enforcement. And Hallow's biggest celebrity partner, who

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Speaker 1: is also a financial investor of the app, is a

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Speaker 1: convicted felon who beat two Vietnamese men with a wooden

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Speaker 1: stick and still has not apologized to the black child

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Speaker 1: he threw rocks at. And your anti abortion nonprofit, Live

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Speaker 1: Action wrote a disingenuous piece about my podcast episode and

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Speaker 1: neglected to mention any of that. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the pieces that Live Action left out for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: the things that they did not want to talk about

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Speaker 1: that we that we raised that episode. Let's dig into

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Speaker 1: some of those, shall we.

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Speaker 2: And just to expectations set for listeners, Bridget has written

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Speaker 2: about twenty six pages of notes here, so buckle up.

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Speaker 1: In the words of Tupac. First of all, fuck your

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Speaker 1: bitch and the click you claim, just getting, just getting.

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Speaker 1: Although I did listen to several hours of disstracks to

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Speaker 1: prepare for this recording, because that is the energy I

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Speaker 1: would like to bring. Nancy shdard is sat there in

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Speaker 1: HR food. But let's do it. Let's start at the

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Speaker 1: beginning because in our brief news roundup segment, we didn't

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Speaker 1: really do a proper breakdown of what the Hallow app is.

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Speaker 1: Hallow App is a Catholic prayer app. It has things

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Speaker 1: like scripture, rosary prayers, meditations, that kind of thing. It

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Speaker 1: has been around for a few years, but it's really

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Speaker 1: gotten popular recently, and it recently broke into the top

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Speaker 1: ten downloads on the App Store. Genuinely an impressive feat

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Speaker 1: for a faith based app. But here's where things get interesting.

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Speaker 1: The app has a tier that's seventy dollars a year

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Speaker 1: or eleven dollars a month, when prayer is famously free.

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Speaker 1: Now one of Nancy's big non cris Prep related quibbles

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Speaker 1: with my episode and the quibble that she makes with

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Speaker 1: the A Bit Fruity podcast, is that we leave out

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Speaker 1: that there is a free version of the app that

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Speaker 1: gives users free access to limited content. Again, it seems

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Speaker 1: like maybe Nancy's whole job is writing an article on

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Speaker 1: Live action whenever somebody does not do a good enough

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Speaker 1: job of saying that there's a free version of the

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Speaker 1: Halo app. Again, what a sad job, Nancy. I feel

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Speaker 1: for you, girl. But the full experience to fully experience

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Speaker 1: what this app has to offer from scriptures and prayers,

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Speaker 1: that costs money, right, Nancy, you are not accessing the

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Speaker 1: full experience of this app for free. So that's just

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Speaker 1: a fact. And listen, I am not fundamentally opposed for

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Speaker 1: apps charging for services. I used to work for an app.

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Speaker 1: Stuff costs money. That's fine. Apps cost money to make

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Speaker 1: and run, sure. But my issue is a different one,

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Speaker 1: and it is the question that I raised in the

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Speaker 1: original episode that Nancy somehow did not find important enough

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Speaker 1: to mention in her piece, which is who built this,

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Speaker 1: who is funding it, and what do they actually want

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Speaker 1: with your data and more importantly, your faith, Because let's

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Speaker 1: be clear right now, Hollow is not just some nice

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Speaker 1: little Catholic startup founded by some devout software developers who

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Speaker 1: wanted to bring prayer to the digital age. Funny enough,

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Speaker 1: one of our listeners wrote a great comment on the

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Speaker 1: Spotify comments saying that they actually know the original person

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Speaker 1: who built the app before the current CEO, Alex Jones

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Speaker 1: ever got involved with it, and that that person is

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Speaker 1: like a thoughtful, smart person that they respect. But the

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Speaker 1: current iteration of the app is backed by venture capital,

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Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars of it. Actually, you want

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Speaker 1: to know about some of their investors, Mike.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who is who has invested these tennis's millions of

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Speaker 2: dollars into this app?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's just the small time devout men of religion,

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Speaker 1: people like JD Vance Ever heard of them? And Peter

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Speaker 1: til jd Vance's investment comes from his investment firm, Naria Capital. Now,

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Speaker 1: according to Vance's most recent disclosures in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: he still owns half a million dollars worth of stock

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Speaker 1: in said investment firm. Now, let me make sure that

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Speaker 1: it is clear who we're talking about when we talk

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Speaker 1: about these people, because we talk about Peter tel on

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Speaker 1: the podcast all the time. He is the gay billionaire

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Speaker 1: tech investor. He co founded PayPal. He was the first

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Speaker 1: outside investor in Facebook, one of the most significant funders

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Speaker 1: of Trump and Maga candidates. He is also, and this

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Speaker 1: part matters for our conversation about the hallow app, the

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Speaker 1: co founder and chairman of a company called pal Andeer Technologies.

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Speaker 1: So when you open the Halo app to have your

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Speaker 1: sacred morning meditation or your sacred morning prayer, that is

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Speaker 1: whose financial ecosystem you are in on the app. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about Peter Teel because Pallenteer

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Speaker 1: is really important and people need to fully understand what

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Speaker 1: it is it does exactly. Palenteer is a data analytics

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Speaker 1: and surveillance company. That is what it does, surveillance. It

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Speaker 1: was founded in two thousand and three. The title, which

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Speaker 1: I did not know this because I have not read

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Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings, actually comes from Lord of the Rings.

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Speaker 1: Teal apparently is a huge Lord of the Rings guy.

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Speaker 1: He named it after the Seeing stone in Tolkien's Legendarium,

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Speaker 1: so his whole company is named after the object that

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Speaker 1: lets you spy on people from Afar. So that's fine,

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Speaker 1: what is Palenteer actually doing in the real world right now?

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Speaker 1: Ice Enforcement? ICE paid Palenteer thirty million dollars to build

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Speaker 1: something called immigration OS, an AI system specifically designed to identify, track,

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Speaker 1: and deport non citizens. Since Trump took office, Pallenteer has

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Speaker 1: received over nine hundred million dollars in federal contracts. And

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Speaker 1: here's just a little extra conflict of interest there, just

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Speaker 1: for funsies. Stephen Miller, the Trump administration chief architect of

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Speaker 1: this horrible immigration policy, the guy who basically built and

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Speaker 1: designed the deportation machine that we're all dealing with right now,

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Speaker 1: holds a substantial personal financial stake in Palenteer. So this

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Speaker 1: company is so controversial that its own former employees wrote

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Speaker 1: an open letter condemning its work with the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: So these are people who helped build this thing, they said,

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Speaker 1: and I quote, democracy faces escalating threats, biometric data collection

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Speaker 1: on immigrant children, journalists being targeted. They said, the same

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Speaker 1: principles they founded the company on have now been violated.

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Speaker 1: The Swiss government rejected Pallenteer nine times. Their military produced

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Speaker 1: an internal report saying Palaenteer software posed unacceptable risks because

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Speaker 1: sensitive data could potentially be accessed by US intelligence. So

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Speaker 1: what makes Palenteer so powerful and frankly scary is that

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Speaker 1: it integrates data from many different sources to create pro

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Speaker 1: files about individuals. It's like an ecosystem of surveillance that

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Speaker 1: none of us opted into, but were all caught up in.

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Speaker 1: They most likely have individual profiles about me, you, and

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Speaker 1: anybody that you know. So anybody listening to the sound

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Speaker 1: of my voice right now Palaneer probably has a surveillance

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Speaker 1: profile on you. So this is Peter O'teel's company, his

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Speaker 1: whole thing, and specifically and importantly turning intimate information about

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Speaker 1: people into a product. Speaking of which, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the menstrual and fertility tracking app that Teal also invested in,

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Speaker 1: called twenty eight. So twenty eight is made by the

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Speaker 1: founders of ev magazine, which the Southern Poverty Law Center

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Speaker 1: has identified as a publication supporting male supremacist politics. You

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Speaker 1: can kind of think of it as the anti cosmo

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Speaker 1: of a women's publication for conservative and right wing attitudes

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Speaker 1: and ideas. Now, the app asks you to input your

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Speaker 1: menstrual cycle data. Their privacy policy says that your personal

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Speaker 1: information can be shared with third party service providers, and

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Speaker 1: twenty eight basically openly admits that they have no control

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Speaker 1: over what those third parties might do with that data.

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Speaker 1: And while they do extra special pinky promise, swear never

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Speaker 1: to hand your cycle data specifically over to law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Pretty much everything else your name, your location, your IP address,

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Speaker 1: Ready to open the app, they will hand that over

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Speaker 1: to law enforcement in a post Dobb's investigation. That kind

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Speaker 1: of metadata, your location, your name, your IP address will

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Speaker 1: tell prosecutors almost everything they might need to know. This

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Speaker 1: is not an app that I would suggest anybody use

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Speaker 1: if they care about privacy, especially given the political climate

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Speaker 1: that we're in right now that criminalizes things like miscarriage, abortion,

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Speaker 1: and really anything to do with pregnancy. So this is

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Speaker 1: the guy that is investing in your Prayer app, the

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Speaker 1: guy whose whole professional legacy is taking the most intimate

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Speaker 1: parts of people's lives, turning them into data, and selling

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Speaker 1: access to that data or even handing it to the government.

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Speaker 1: Your body, your location, your immigration status, your fertility, these

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Speaker 1: things that we used to think of as intimate and

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Speaker 1: special and sensitive and now apparently also your prayers. We

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Speaker 1: took a look at Hollow's privacy policy and it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit squishy. I will give the caveat that we

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Speaker 1: are not attorneys, but we did take a careful look

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Speaker 1: at it, right, Mike, We did, and I do want

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Speaker 1: to give them credit for writing it in plain language

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Speaker 1: that is pretty accessible to non lawyers like myself.

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Speaker 2: You know, on its face, there are no big, flashing

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Speaker 2: red lights that explicitly spell out alarming ways in which

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Speaker 2: they're going to share your data. They don't like say

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Speaker 2: that outright. However, there's also no strong language guaranteeing that

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Speaker 2: your prayers and journal entries and whatever the private data

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Speaker 2: you share with them will stay private. And there are

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Speaker 2: two seemingly benign little pieces in particular that give me

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Speaker 2: some pause. One is the phrase parties you authorize, access

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Speaker 2: or authenticate, which is repeated frequently throughout the privacy policy

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Speaker 2: when they're describing who they might share your data with.

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Speaker 2: Who are these parties and how might a user authorize them?

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Speaker 2: No list or explanation is provided. I can only speculate

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Speaker 2: who they might be, but it's pretty easy to imagine

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Speaker 2: a scenario where a user unknowingly authorizes some third party

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Speaker 2: app by simply clicking a single continue button or something

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Speaker 2: like that. You know, it's it's not like wild that

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Speaker 2: they would say that. But at the same time, giving

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Speaker 2: users control over who their sensitive data gets shared with

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Speaker 2: is good in theory, but in practice many people will

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Speaker 2: often click accept without actually knowing what it is that

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Speaker 2: they are consenting to. You know, who has time to

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Speaker 2: read the privacy policy of every app and every third

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Speaker 2: party integration. Privacy advocates call this consent fatigue, and tech

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Speaker 2: companies know it's a thing, and I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of less grupless companies take advantage of that, you know,

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Speaker 2: just knowing that people aren't going to read price ivacy

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Speaker 2: policies and are you going to just click consent or

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Speaker 2: accept or even just continue and agree to things without

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Speaker 2: really even knowing what they're agreeing to. I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: that that's what the Hallow app is doing here, but

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Speaker 2: I am saying that it could very easily happen under

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Speaker 2: their privacy policy, and I think it's written in a

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Speaker 2: way to give them that flexibility. Companies that truly care

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Speaker 2: about protecting their users sensitive data proactively protect them, and

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Speaker 2: here the Hallow app is putting the responsibility on the user,

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Speaker 2: who may or may not have the technical savvy to

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Speaker 2: make informed choices. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: I know you have experience with designing privacy policies, and

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Speaker 1: that context makes a lot of sense to me. And

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I am not telling people

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Speaker 1: what to do. I'm not telling people not to use

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Speaker 1: this app. I am just asking when you open this

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Speaker 1: app and share your most intimate spiritual struggles, your faith journey,

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Speaker 1: your most private conversations with God on this app, it's

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Speaker 1: fair to ask who else is being led into that equation?

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Speaker 1: Who was putting themselves between you and your faith? Again,

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Speaker 1: I feel that was a question we posed in the

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Speaker 1: original episode. Nancy, you did not mention it at all

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Speaker 1: in your writeup, and I find that interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great question, Like who else

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Speaker 2: might be in between the person writing these prayers, writing

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Speaker 2: these meditations, you know, the end user and God. Right,

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Speaker 2: Like it's clearly the app, it could also be the government,

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Speaker 2: you know. The other section in the privacy policy that

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Speaker 2: gave me some pause is the section where they talk

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Speaker 2: about data sharing for the purposes of meeting legal requirements

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Speaker 2: and enforcing legal terms. The app says that one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons it might disclose users private data is for

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Speaker 2: quote fulfilling our legal obligations under applicable law, regulation, or order,

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Speaker 2: or other legal process, such as maintaining transaction and donation records,

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Speaker 2: or preventing, detecting, and investigating security incidents and potentially illegal

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Speaker 2: or prohibited activities.

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Speaker 1: End quote. So if I had a miscarriage or had

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Speaker 1: to terminate a pregnancy, and I'm praying to God about

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Speaker 1: that in this app, I might want to be extra careful.

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Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying, because we don't really know

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Speaker 1: how they're going to be interpreting their responsibility to share

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Speaker 1: that information with third parties up to an including law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: I think that's absolutely right, you know, I think context

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Speaker 2: really matters a lot, and given what we know about

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Speaker 2: some of the people who are major investors in this app,

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Speaker 2: as well as the fact that Live Action seems to

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Speaker 2: be running a whole campaign to support and defend them,

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Speaker 2: I think it's pretty legitimate to wonder if they would

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Speaker 2: be turning over information about abortions when asked, and maybe

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Speaker 2: even if not asked, right, you know, I think that

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Speaker 2: language in the privacy policy it's fairly standard. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's not anything that weird about it. But again, that

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Speaker 2: context really matters, and I think there's nothing standard about

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Speaker 2: the role that Peter Thiel and Palentier played in building

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Speaker 2: this digital surveillance capacity for the US government. They've got

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Speaker 2: this unique ecosystem of data sources working hand in glove

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Speaker 2: with the Trump administration and their allies and state governments.

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Speaker 2: We've seen countless court filings, executive orders, and agency actions

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Speaker 2: over the past year where the administration has taken a

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Speaker 2: very expansive and legally questionable view of their powers to

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Speaker 2: demand access to people's private or sensitive data for purposes

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't intended for. And they're also not at

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Speaker 2: all shy about very creative interpretations of what counts says

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Speaker 2: illegal or prohibited activities. At various times that Trump administration

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Speaker 2: has seemed to allege that criticizing the administration is potentially illegal.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not saying that the Hallow app definitely

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Speaker 2: is sharing users private data with law enforcement or Palenteer

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Speaker 2: or the administration. It's impossible to know, but I think

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Speaker 2: if they wanted to do that, this clause and the

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Speaker 2: privacy policy would allow them to. Again, I'm not a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: but that's my read on it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that, And I guess what I would

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Speaker 1: say is even if this privacy policy is fairly run

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Speaker 1: of the mill. I don't trust any of these people.

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Speaker 1: I don't trust the people who are investors in the app.

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Speaker 1: I don't trust the people as they've appointed as spokespeople.

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Speaker 1: I don't personally trust any of these people.

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Speaker 2: Well, what about some of the incredible Christians that have

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Speaker 2: been promoting the app? You know, like you know, your

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Speaker 2: boyfriend Mark Wahlberg. Actually he wishes that's true, he probably does.

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Speaker 1: We will talk more about the actual records of some

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Speaker 1: of the celebrity quote incredible Christians who are Hallow out

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Speaker 1: spokespeople after this quick break at are back. So the

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Speaker 1: Hallow App CEO Alex Jones, No, not that. Alex Jones

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Speaker 1: said in an interview that his celebrity partners are quote

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Speaker 1: incredible Christians, great people of faith. Great. Let's take that

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Speaker 1: seriously and look at their record, shall we? Because Nancy's

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Speaker 1: piece focused almost entirely on Chris Pratt. Chris Pratt, Chris Pratt,

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Speaker 1: Chris Pratt, and she mentioned Mark Wahlberg, Hallow's biggest and

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Speaker 1: most visible partner by their own measure. In a parenthetical

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Speaker 1: she said, and I quote on the podcast, there are

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Speaker 1: no Girls on the Internet with Bridget Todd Herder producer

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Speaker 1: Mike spoke about Pratt, parentheses and Wahlberg's association with the

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Speaker 1: Hollow app. They also discussed Gwen Stefani's partnership with the app,

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Speaker 1: for which he was strongly criticized late last year. Now

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Speaker 1: you went back and listened, and we actually had quite

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Speaker 1: a bit to say about Mark Wahlberg. Interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that our conversation about the Hallow app and their spokespeople,

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Speaker 1: Mark Wahlberg is only mentioned in a paranthetical, and I

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Speaker 1: really have to wonder why Nancy would do that, considering

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Speaker 1: that we talk at blank about Mark Wahlberg in that episode,

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Speaker 1: considerably more than we talked about Chris Pratt. Fox Business

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Speaker 1: reported that the CEO called his partnership with Mark Wahlberg

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Speaker 1: quote definitely the largest and most expansive partnership Hallow has

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Speaker 1: ever done. And Mark Wahlberg is not just the ad guy.

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Speaker 1: He's not just a spokesperson. He is also an investor.

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Speaker 1: He has a personal financial stake in this app. Axio

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Speaker 1: Chicago reported that Hallo quote sort of the top of

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Speaker 1: the app store after its Super Bowl commercial starring Boston

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Speaker 1: bred actor Vocal Catholic and former bad boy which will

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Speaker 1: come to you in a minute, Mark Wahlberg, who invested

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Speaker 1: in the Chicago based startup. So, Nancy, why is Mark

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Speaker 1: Wahlberg just relegated to a paranthetical? Could it be because

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Speaker 1: of what is in Mark Wahlberg's actual history as one

431
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: of these incredible Christians? Couldn't be that? Because I think

432
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: it could be that. So let me tell you about

433
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: Mark Wahlberg. Mark Wahlberg's criminal history is violent, extensive, while documented,

434
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: and very serious, and it centers around racially motivated violence.

435
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: So let's go through it. It's nineteen eighty six. Mark Wahlberg

436
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: is fifteen years old. He and two other white teens

437
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: attacked a group of mostly black fourth grade children who

438
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 1: were on a field trip to the beach. They hurled

439
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: rocks at these kids, They screamed racial slurs at these children,

440
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: and they chased them. One of these children was a

441
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: little girl named Kristin Atwood. It was a hate crime

442
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what should be on his record forever,

443
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: and for him to want to erase it, I just

444
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: think is wrong. Atwood says she was nine years old

445
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: when Wahlberg and a group of his friends attacked her

446
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: class during a field trip and what was a very

447
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: segregated Boston Jesus.

448
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 2: He threw rocks at fouls and used the n work.

449
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: Wood says that she has never received an apology from

450
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: Mark Wahlberg, which will come back to him. It's nineteen

451
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: eighty eight. Mark Wahlberg is sixteen years old. He is

452
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: the perpetrator of two separate attacks on the Vietnamese men

453
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: in the same day. First, he approached a man named

454
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: Tom Lam who is getting out of his car with

455
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: two cases of beer. Wahlberg yells slurs at him and

456
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: then beat him over the head with a five foot

457
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: wooden stick. He beat this man until he lost consciousness.

458
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: He beat this man until the stick broke in two

459
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: later that same day, Mark Wahlberg attacks another Vietnamese American man,

460
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: this time Johnny Trin. He punches Johnny in the eye

461
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: and made, in the words of the court documents quote

462
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: numerous unsolicited racial statements that included racial slurs. One of

463
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: these men permanently lost sight in one eye. Now Wahlberg

464
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: was convicted of these crimes as an adult. He got

465
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: two counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon.

466
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: Marijuana possession and criminal contempt for vice lating the prior

467
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: civil rights injunction from nineteen eighty six. He was sentenced

468
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: to two years in prison, but only served forty five days.

469
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: Nineteen ninety two, Wahlberg is twenty one years old. He's

470
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: now Marky Mark. He's a sort of rapper. He's famous.

471
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: He is wearing Calvin Klein underpants on posters hung on

472
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: teenage girls' bedroom's walls, mine included, and across America probably,

473
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: and per court documents, he viciously and repeatedly kicked another

474
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: man in the head. Now that case was settled civilly,

475
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: so all of that is public record. It is not

476
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: in dispute. Mark Wahlberg to this day is a convicted

477
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: violent felon. Now, I know what you're thinking. These are

478
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: all old charges. They stem from when he was younger,

479
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: the eighties and the nineties. People change. Perhaps he is

480
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: genuinely a different person now with age. If you're thinking that,

481
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: that is totally fair. But let's look at what he

482
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: actually did about it. In twenty fourteen, Mark Wahlberg applies

483
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: for a pardon from the state of Massachusetts. Why twenty fourteen?

484
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: What happened? In twenty fourteen that made him suddenly want

485
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: to address these crimes from nineteen eighty eight. Maybe it

486
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: was his faith or his connection to the Lord that

487
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: made him want to repent. What do you think, Yeah,

488
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: it's possible.

489
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: You know, maybe he really prayed on it and felt

490
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 2: bad about what he'd done and just wanted to make

491
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: amends in the spirit of moving on and putting it

492
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: behind it. Maybe that's what happened.

493
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: That could have been what happened. Or maybe just maybe

494
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: he wanted to get a liquor license for the Wahburgers,

495
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: his chain of burger restaurants in Massachusetts. They're actually pretty

496
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: touchy about felony convictions in Massachusetts. You cannot get a

497
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: liquor license if you have a felony conviction. So Mark

498
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: Wahlberg says, I'm rich, I'm famous. It's been decades. I

499
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: need a pardon for these crimes. So I remember the

500
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: whole saga of him trying to get a pardon in

501
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, two of his victims spoke out against pardoning him.

502
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: Two different Massachusetts governors were disinclined to act on his

503
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: behalf for that pardon, and the fact that he was

504
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: seeking this pardon at all was pretty widely criticized, and eventually,

505
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, two years later, Mark Wahlberg dropped it

506
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: about the pardon. He said, quote, I didn't need that.

507
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: I spent twenty eight years writing the wrong. I didn't

508
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: need a piece of paper to acknowledge it. And that

509
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: kind of caught my eye because twenty eight years righting

510
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: the wrong. Okay, let's see what righting that wrong looked like,

511
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: because listen, we all make mistakes. Jesus hung out with sinners.

512
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: Was this whole thing? Maybe Mark Wahlberg worked very hard

513
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: to make amends and to pick accountability for his actions, like,

514
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: for instance, maybe he worked with the specific communities that

515
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: he harmed. Maybe he spoke out against anti Asian and

516
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: anti black violence. There are so many ways that I

517
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: can imagine somebody making amends for such a violent, racist,

518
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: heinous crime if that person were interested in quote righting

519
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: the wrong. As Mark Wahlberg said.

520
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: That he was, I feel like two people who could

521
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: really weigh in on whether the wrong had been righted

522
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: were those two victims who spoke out against his pardon

523
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: an application.

524
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, great point, great point. So during the pardon process,

525
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: so this is twenty fourteen, twenty six years after the attack,

526
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: Wahlberg met with one of the victims and his family

527
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: to apologize. Now that victim, Trin has publicly says that

528
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: he forgives Mark Wahlberg. I want to name that because

529
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: it's important and I respect it. However, that apology took

530
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: twenty six years, I would say somebody genuinely interested in

531
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: taking accountability. It is curious to me that it took

532
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: almost thirty years to ever offer an apology for that behavior,

533
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: and that that timing coincide and with needing a liquor

534
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: license to open a chain of restaurants in Boston. That's

535
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 1: just me. However, he only ever apologized to that one victim.

536
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: Kristin Atwood, the little black girl that he threw rocks

537
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: at in nineteen eighty six, says that she has never

538
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: to this day received a personal apology from Mark Wahlberg,

539
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: Not during his twenty fourteen accountability to get the liquor

540
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: license campaign, Not ever, not now. And you know what,

541
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: I respect Kristen because she told him exactly where things stand.

542
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: And I have to wonder if why Wahlberg did not

543
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: feel the need to give this woman an apologies because

544
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: she's black. In fact, Judis Biels, his own prosecutor, said

545
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: that Wahlberg has never truly acknowledged the racial nature of

546
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: his crimes, and she made a very good point that

547
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: a formal pardon would send the message that quote, if

548
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,239
Speaker 1: you are white and a movie star, a different standard applies. So,

549
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,239
Speaker 1: in my book, the very least someone can do if

550
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: their actual trying to right a wrong, which again Wahlberg

551
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: says he has done. He says, oh, I spent thirty

552
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: years writing that wrong. I don't need a pardon or

553
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: a piece of paper, even though I was looking for

554
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: a pardon to get that liquor license. I don't need

555
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: a pardon to make that clear. Okay, So didn't really

556
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: apologize except for to one person. What about all the

557
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: kinds of good work and philanthropy that he's done in

558
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: the community. Maybe that could count as righting the wrong.

559
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: What do you say, what do you think?

560
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: It's probably a good start.

561
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: Let's look at it. Because Wahlberg did found the Mark

562
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: Wahlberg Uth Foundation in two thousand and one, and he

563
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: also does charity work with the Boys and Girls Club,

564
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: an organization that is near and dear to my heart.

565
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: Those are real things. I am not dismissing them. But

566
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: none of those things is directed specifically at the Vietnamese

567
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: American community, nor the black communities that he actually harmed,

568
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: that he actually named as the targets of his harm

569
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: when he was committing these violent crimes towards them. And also,

570
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: not for nothing, a rich person doing like a generally

571
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: charitable thing, frankly, the kind of thing that all rich

572
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: people should be doing, and many of them do already

573
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: without having committed crimes first, is not the same thing

574
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: in my book as righting the wrong of multiple violent

575
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: racist attacks. But that's just me. And then there's this

576
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: little tidbit. So at Wahlberg's sentencing, a priest who had

577
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: helped Mark Wahlberg gave a statement crediting Wahlberg's tearful courtroom

578
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: apology with moving the judge towards leniency, because remember, he

579
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: was sentenced to two years but only served forty five days.

580
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: The local parish father, Jim Flavin, told sixty Minutes that

581
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: he watched Wahberg work the judge from the courtroom. He

582
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: started tearing up, and the judge melted, and then Wahlberg

583
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: looked at the priest and winked. Flavin called it quote

584
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: an Academy Award performance in the courtroom. Just had to

585
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: throw that in there for a little bit of spice,

586
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,239
Speaker 1: a little razzle dazzle on who this guy is and

587
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: who it sounds like he's always been.

588
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we said in our last episode about

589
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: it that he's a good actor, and you know, stand

590
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: by it. It sounds like he was a good actor even

591
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: in those early days.

592
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: So he did apologize to the Asian American community. There

593
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: was a nineteen ninety three apology issued through a smokesperson

594
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: only under pressure from the Committee Against Anti Asian Violence.

595
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: He also agreed to appear in a series of anti

596
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: racism public service announcements that never actually materialized. Dude, why

597
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: not just do the PSAs. It's like the easiest thing

598
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: in the world to do.

599
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, why not just do them? That's so curious. I

600
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: would it's like a little bit of a digression, I

601
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: guess from this episode, but I'd love to know more about,

602
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: like what happened where Apparently he agreed to do this

603
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: series of PSAs but then didn't follow through. It's real curious.

604
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: So The Boston Globe reported in nineteen ninety three that

605
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: the apology was delivered by his manager, Dick Scott, at

606
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: a press conference in Times Square, while Warber himself kicking

607
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: it in Hawaii. The statement read, in part, in nineteen

608
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: eighty six, I harassed a group of school kids on

609
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: a field trip. Many of the students were African American.

610
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, I assaulted two Vietnamese men over

611
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: a case of beer. Racist slurs and language were used

612
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: during these encounters. Great passive language were used and people

613
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: were they just chos were nowhere. Yeah, these slurs just

614
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: came from the heavens. I don't know they can. They

615
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: just happened.

616
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: Slurs appeared, Mistakes were made, slurs were used, People were

617
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: seriously hurt. I am truly sorry for what I did.

618
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: Variety reported at the time that in addition to the apology,

619
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: Wahlberg promised an ad campaign to denounce all forms of bigotry, saying,

620
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 1: I know there are kids out there doing the same

621
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: stuff now, and I want to tell them don't do it.

622
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: So your question, why did these PSAs never appear? Well? Well?

623
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: According to a November nineteen ninety three GLAD report, sided

624
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: by reappropriate plans to produce an anti violence TV spot

625
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: feature Mark Wahlberg, were canceled after he was charged with

626
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: a subsequent assault on a record company executive in LA

627
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: during which he allegedly made quote disparaging remarks about homosexuals.

628
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: Oh man, so everybody's catching it, black people, Vietnamese people, homosexuals. Yeah,

629
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: I guess I can see why Glad would not be

630
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: super pumped to do his series of ads with him.

631
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: It also kind of suggests that, like, maybe he hadn't

632
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: gotten quite so over it as he was attempting to portray.

633
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: Well, you know, he says he's a changed man. He

634
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: spent decades trying to right these wrongs, That's what he says.

635
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 1: Or maybe he is just someone whose redemption arc has

636
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: very conveniently aligned with his business interests at every single turn.

637
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you. I don't know the guy. You'd

638
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: be the judge. I will say this. This is Hallow's

639
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: most important partner, their largest and most expansive relaatelationship, The

640
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: man who is the face of their Super Bowl ad,

641
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: an incredible Christian. So, Nancy girl, I ask you again,

642
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: we talked about him more than we talked about Chris Pratt.

643
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: In that episode. So why is this man a parenthetical

644
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: when you talk about who we talked about in that episode,

645
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: Why is Mark Wahlberg a parenthetical? I'm so curious.

646
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: You know that image of the parish priest in the

647
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: courtroom when Wahlberg was being sentenced, describing how he saw

648
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: Wahlberg like give this tearful apology to the judge and

649
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: then look at him in wink. That image is going

650
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: to be burned into my mind going forward. Anytime I

651
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: hear about Mark Whlberg, I'm going to think about that wink.

652
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: I know what an asshole? What an asshole?

653
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: And you love it?

654
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: You sick? Oh? I do? I mean there comes a

655
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: point where it's like, Wow, you make being not a

656
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: good person an art form. You really You're like Picasso

657
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: of being an asshole. You really take this art form seriously,

658
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: You really like leveled up the game. Hudos. Incredible Christian, No,

659
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: incredible Christian, incredible Christian. These are the people that you

660
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 1: really feel like have the moral high ground for sure.

661
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at our back. Let's keep going.

662
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: Because one of their other notable spokespeople is Jim Cavezel.

663
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: If you know that name, you know that he played

664
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: Jesus in Passion of the Christ. He now appears on

665
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: the Hallow app leading the Stations of the Cross, which

666
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: is very on brand. I will say, if you're gonna

667
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: get type cast, you could do worse as being type

668
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: cast as Jesus, and Jim Cavezell definitely gives Jesus like this,

669
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: like there's a specific iteration of Jesus that they're going for,

670
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: and he definitely gives it. So in addition to being

671
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: one of the credible Christians on the Hallow app here's

672
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: what else he's been up to. For years years, Cavezel

673
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: has been a prominent and enthusiastic promoter of the QAnon

674
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, so specifically the claim that there is an

675
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: international cabal of elites who are abusing and killing children

676
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: in order to extract a substance from their blood known

677
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: as adrenochrome, that they drink for power. Let me be

678
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: very clear, obviously this claim is completely made up, totally fabricated,

679
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 1: and it is a dangerous conspiracy theory with deep roots

680
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: in anti Semitic tropes that go back centuries. And here

681
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: we have the incredible Christian Jim Cavezel promoting it loudly, publicly,

682
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: and repeatedly. At a right wing conference, he went on

683
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 1: what reporters called a quote wild tangent about adrenochrome, telling

684
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: the crowd that it's produced by torturing children despite their

685
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: adrenaline before extracting it from their blood. He told Steve Bannon,

686
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: show adrenochrome the whole adrenochrome empire. This is a big deal,

687
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: and one of the things that makes conspiracy theories like

688
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: this so harmful is that they distract attention away from

689
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: real world harms against kids that are actually happening. There

690
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: is no evidence for these ridiculous claims about adrenochrome, but

691
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: there is plenty of evidence that powerful people were harming

692
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: women and girls on Epstein's island. Several of Epstein's close

693
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: associates are currently serving in the Trump administration, being actively

694
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: supported by investors in the Hallow app people like Peter Teal.

695
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: Conspiracy theorists like Cavizel are busy chasing phantoms but ignoring

696
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: the monsters in plain sight. This is kind of a tangent,

697
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: but Cavezell also starred in the movie Sound of Freedom,

698
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: which is about Tim Ballard, who is an anti child

699
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: trafficking activist, which I know sounds great until you learn

700
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: about what happened after that movie came out. We did

701
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: a deep dive episode into Tim Ballard put in the

702
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: show notes. But Tim Ballard was actually forced out of

703
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: his own anti trafficking operation, Operation Underground Railroad, following an

704
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: internal investigation. So here's what they said that he did.

705
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: Multiple women came forward with what the organization described as

706
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: disturbingly specific parallel accounts. The central claim in the allegations

707
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: is that Ballard would invite women to play the part

708
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: of his wife on these undercover overseas mission and then

709
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: use that cover that like, oh, we're a husband wife couple,

710
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: you're my wife, I'm your husband, use that cover to

711
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: coerce these women into sharing a bed or showering with

712
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: him and allegedly committing sexual assault.

713
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: That's just like one of those stories I remember when

714
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: we covered it back at the time. That is like

715
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: you almost couldn't write that stuff. On the one hand,

716
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: it seems so ridiculous that this guy who is supposedly

717
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: running this anti trafficking organization would him self be using

718
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 2: that organization as a means to allegedly pray on women

719
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: and sexually assault them like it seems outlandish, but then

720
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: also it seems like such a pattern. It's like, yeah, obviously,

721
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: that's what so many of these I don't know savior

722
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: types are actually into.

723
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: No, We've talked about it in the episode, and I've

724
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: talked about it lots of places. I believe it is

725
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: the kind of thing where people know that no one

726
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: is going to want to speak out against somebody who

727
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: has made sex trafficking and like anti trafficking awareness their

728
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: entire thing, their entire brand. So on the one hand,

729
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: it allows you to basically do whatever you want while

730
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: not really getting the scrutiny that you deserve. And two,

731
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: we have this thing about survivors and victims of sex

732
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: trafficking that I think, frankly we're seeing play out in

733
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: the conversations around Epstein, where the survivors and victims of

734
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: trafficking are meant to be these silent people that other

735
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: people get to talk about and kind of quote advocate for.

736
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: There are plenty of Epstein trafficking survivors who are alive

737
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: and vocal and doing press conferences and writing books and

738
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: talking about what they experienced, but it's like we silence

739
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: the actual survivors and victims while elevating the people who

740
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: purport to speak on their behalf or advocate on their behalf.

741
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: And a lot of those people end up being abusers themselves.

742
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: And I think that's not surprising to me that people

743
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 1: who want to do bad things to women and kids

744
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: often will say like I'm a anti sex trafficking crusader

745
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: or advocate like Tim would not be the first person

746
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: to make his whole brand protecting women and girls while

747
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: also abusing women on the side.

748
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, well said okay, So bringing it back to the

749
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: Hallow app the right, Tim Tim Beller had no connection

750
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: to it except Cavizel played him in that movie. So,

751
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 2: so what happened after these allegations came out and how

752
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: to Cavezel. The spokesperson for Hallow app respond.

753
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 1: As soon as these allegations dropped against Tim Ballard, Jim

754
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: Cavezell was like, cut ties, doune ties, I cannot be

755
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 1: around you anymore because of these heinous allegations against women.

756
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, Actually, Cavizell was like, he's still

757
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: my homie, y'all. He didn't do that stuff. Those women

758
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: are lying because Cavezell has actually remained very public in

759
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: his support of Tim Ballard through all of this. This

760
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: is the man who is leading you through the stations

761
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 1: of the cross on the Hallow app.

762
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah. Another dubious associate is that it is

763
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: that the end of your list.

764
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: It is not the end of my list, because we

765
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: also have to talk about Russell Brand, another Hallow spokesperson. Now, upfront,

766
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: I need to be super clear, Russell Brand has not

767
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 1: been convicted of anything as of this recording. He denies

768
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: all allegations against him. His case is working its way

769
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: through the courts. So I'm not going to tell you

770
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: that he's guilty because a jury has not decided that

771
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: and I don't know. However, I am going to talk

772
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: about Hallow's choices as it pertains to working with Russell Brand.

773
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: So in September twenty twenty three, Channel four in the

774
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: UK broadcast a major investigative documentary called Russell Brand Colon

775
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: in Plain Sight. The Sunday Times ran a companion investigation

776
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: which I read it's very upsetting, read very long, very upsetting.

777
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: Multiple women came forward with serious allegations spanning years of

778
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: his career. These were major, major internationally covered front page

779
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: news stories. I remember where I was when I read

780
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: this like long read about Russell Brand that was frankly nauseating.

781
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: So that was September twenty twenty three. In January twenty

782
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: twenty five, sixteen months later, Hallow entered a commercial partnership

783
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: with Russell Brand, who in that same month very convene

784
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: veniantly found Jesus, Hallelujah and converted to Catholicism. So he

785
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: gets charged with a slew of very serious sex crimes

786
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 1: against women and girls and then praise Jesus finds religion.

787
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: Very convenient timing, also just in time for Lent.

788
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: By the way, Oh I wonder if he gave up

789
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: sexual assault.

790
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: I hope so. In April twenty twenty five, Russell Brand

791
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: was charged with one count of rape, one count of

792
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 1: oral rape and one count of indecent assault, and two

793
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: counts of sexual assault involving four women. Again, he's pled

794
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: not guilty. In December twenty twenty five, prosecutors authorized a

795
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: second set of charges involving two additional women, and just

796
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: days ago, on February twenty fourth, Brand appeared at Southwark

797
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: Crown Court in a white cowboy hat and sunglasses and

798
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 1: told reporters that he was blessed and pled not guilty

799
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: to two additional charges six women total. The trial is

800
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: scheduled for this summer. Hello did cut ties with Russell

801
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: Brand and called it a mistake. Now I want to

802
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,240
Speaker 1: kind of drill into Hallow calling this a mistake because

803
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: when reporters asked Hallow's press team whether or not they

804
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: knew about this investigation before partnering with Brand, they refused

805
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: to answer. And I think the timeline is really key

806
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: here because Hallo partnered with Russell Brand in January twenty

807
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 1: twenty five. At that point, the Channel four and Sunday

808
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: Times investigation had been public for sixteen months, right like

809
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: I had read about it, I knew about it. The

810
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: Metropolitan Police had then opened up a sex crimes investigation.

811
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: By that point, Brand had been accused by multiple women

812
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: of rape and sexual assault, including one woman who said

813
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: that she was sixteen years old and still in school,

814
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: who alleges that Brand would refer to her as quote

815
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: the child. So it's women and girls who he is

816
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: alleged to have sexually abused. All of that was very

817
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: very known. Like calling it public information, I don't think

818
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: does it justice because It's not like you had to

819
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: go digging through court proceedings or files or something. This

820
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: was in splashy public, huge international media. Brands like I

821
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: read about it, So if I knew, certainly the Hallow

822
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: app new. By November twenty twenty four, two months before

823
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: this partnership was announced, Hallow's own CEO told a reporter

824
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: that if charges were filed against Russell Brand, quote, we

825
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: would obviously take it very seriously. It would be a

826
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: really important development. I guess what I'm getting at here

827
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: is that it sounds to me like the Hallow app

828
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: ceo knew that charges could be coming, because it's just

829
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: difficult to read that article and that was already public

830
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: and not think, well, if these allegations are out there,

831
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: charges are probably coming, and yet partnered with brand anyway,

832
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: charges did come in April twenty twenty five, to their credit.

833
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: Three days later, Hallow cut ties and said that partnering

834
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: with Brand had been a mistake. But here's my thing.

835
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: A mistake is something that you do when you don't

836
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: have enough information. There was a lot of information about

837
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: the accusations against Brand that women and girls were making.

838
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: So when you do have that information and that information

839
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: is very, very public, and your own CEO is on

840
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: the record as acknowledging that situation. When the police investigation

841
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: opens and the accusers have spoken, it seems a little

842
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: hard to call this one a mistake in my book,

843
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: like you had the information, you partnered with him anyway,

844
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 1: It's not like that blind side you came out of nowhere. Again,

845
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 1: good on them for cutting ties when the charges dropped,

846
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: But why did it take charges to not partner with

847
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: someone that you pursued a partnership with? After all, this

848
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: information was already very public? Do you know what I'm saying?

849
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: I do?

850
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: I mean, it really raises questions about like, yeah, you

851
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: said it etically, like why did they need to wait

852
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: for charges to be filed to know that this was

853
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: a bad I mean, it suggests that they just, I

854
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe did not believe the multiple women who

855
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: were extensively quoted in that public report, you know, thought

856
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 2: maybe it was all a big lie, or maybe they

857
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: just didn't care right and thought that having brand celebrity

858
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: power would be worth it, and without charges, no one

859
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: would care what these women said happened to them.

860
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: I don't know.

861
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: It's a really weird move, but I guess maybe not

862
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 2: that atypical in some of these right wing spaces to

863
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 2: just look the other way when there are credible accounts

864
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 2: of sexual abuse from multiple different women against a powerful

865
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: man with fame. Looking the other way seems pretty common

866
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: in a lot of these cases.

867
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: Yes, so this is the band of alleged rapists and

868
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: violent criminals that the Hallow app has a massed on

869
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: their app as incredible questions To be clear, brand s

870
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: guilt is for the courts to decide. The trial is

871
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: set for this summer. But I agree with you. I

872
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: think that Hallow's decision to sign a man up as

873
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 1: a spokesperson for a religious app sixteen months after major

874
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: front page sexual assault allegations, that's on Hallowe's decision making.

875
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, your mileage may vary. Maybe you

876
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: think that was just a mistake as opposed to a

877
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: strategic choice that blew up in their faces. More. After

878
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back into it. So

879
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: let's circle back to Chris Pratt, the person that Nancy

880
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: thinks is my nemesis, Nancy's favorite subject. It is true

881
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: I do find Chris Pratt a little annoying. I have

882
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: always found Chris Pratt a little annoying. This is not

883
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 1: a new development in my book. He went from a goofy,

884
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: lovable everyman on Parks and React to suddenly like jacked

885
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: and in every single movie simultaneously, and the energy was

886
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: just a lot for me, and I found it annoying.

887
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: But here's the thing, As I said in that episode,

888
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: I don't even really care about his conservative politics. What

889
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: I don't love is the victim narrative that he often portrays,

890
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: the narrative that says that he is being persecuted for

891
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: Christian beliefs or conservative values to the point where his

892
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: co stars have to speak up, while simultaneously starring in

893
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: the biggest movies on the goddamn planet. You're in Jurassic World,

894
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 1: You're in Guardians of the Galaxies, You're in the Marvel movies,

895
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: the biggest movies on the planet. I don't know how

896
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: you can simultaneously be this downtrodden victim that people need

897
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: to stick up for while also being booked in literally

898
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: the biggest, most money making movies on the globe.

899
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 2: And yet it seems to be a pretty successful track,

900
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 2: right Like look at Trump, nobody plays the victy them

901
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 2: harder than him, and he's like one of the most

902
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 2: powerful people in the world. There's really something to this,

903
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: like victim playing that seems to work for people.

904
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: I've said it before, I don't think I've said it

905
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: on the podcast. When people are able to cast themselves

906
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: as simultaneously the victim and the hero, that's when things

907
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 1: starts to get weird for me, where it's like, oh, wow,

908
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: you're like you are downtrod and everybody needs to be

909
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 1: amplifying you and lifting you up because you're such a victim,

910
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: but also you're the most successful person. You're everywhere pick

911
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: a lane.

912
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: I don't like it, or like when people go on

913
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 2: like all of the cable news talk shows and thirty

914
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 2: podcasts to talk about how they've been deplatformed.

915
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: Yes, ooh, I would love to enjoy the kind of

916
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: cancelation that people like Dave Chappelle or Joe Rogan are

917
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: getting number one podcast in the world. Cancel me, cancel me, please,

918
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: cancel me. Daddy out. This girl would love to be

919
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: canceled my bank account with love for me to be

920
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: canceled my bookings, would love for me to be canceled.

921
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: That's kind of cancelation. I want some of And when

922
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: people were jokingly talking about how Chris Pratt is the

923
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 1: worst Chris that we're saying that because the other options

924
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: are like fucking hotties who seem smart right like they're

925
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: like disgustingly good looking men who also seem smart and cool,

926
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: And then you have Chris Pratt. Sorry, like them's the

927
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: fucking breaks. You think that women and other people have

928
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: not been hit against each other by their looks since forever.

929
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: You want to me to cry a river for the

930
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: fact that it's happening to you, Chris Pratt, when it's

931
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 1: been happening to women in Hollywood since the beginning of time.

932
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: Not likely. When that happened, his co stars rallied around

933
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: him publicly, which that is nice, But the women and

934
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: people of color in Hollywood and also in Marvel movies

935
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: that he's a Marvel star when those people face genuine,

936
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: sustained harassment that comes with real professional consequences, that comparison

937
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 1: does not sit right with me. I think it's nice

938
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: that his Marvel co stars wanted to speak highly of

939
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: him and like, you know, stick up for him. Well,

940
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: he feels like he's being like bullied or whatever by

941
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: people saying that he's the worst Chris. That's nice, but

942
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: I want to see that same energy for the women

943
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: and people of color in Hollywood, in fandom, in superhero movies,

944
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: in Star Wars, in Marvel movies, when that same thing

945
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: happens to them, And there is just no comparison between

946
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: Chris Pratt being sort of jokingly referred to as the

947
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: worst Chris in comparison to Chris Helmsworth and that other

948
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: hobby whose name I can't remember, and what marginalized people

949
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: face in Hollywood and even in the same franchises that

950
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: Chris Pratt is in the Marvel franchises. And all of

951
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: this to say is I have to wonder if Nancy

952
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: at Live Action is more comfortable talking about Chris Pratt

953
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: than Mark Wahlberg, more comfortable talking about Chris Pratt than

954
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: some of the data privacy questions that we raised, and

955
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: more comfortable talking about Chris Pratt than any of the

956
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 1: other stuff that we actually got into you in that episode.

957
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 2: I wonder too, you know, I think probably something to

958
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 2: that he's more comfortable because he doesn't have a history

959
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 2: of racist hate crimes that we know of.

960
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm kidding. I don't think he does, although

961
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: I don't put nothing past nobody, so well, I don't know.

962
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: But one thing he does have is that like victim narrative, right,

963
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 2: which is not dissimilar from the narrative that Nancy was

964
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 2: using in her article. You know that we were just

965
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: attacking the app because we hate faith, we hate Christians,

966
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 2: which is just like, those things are not true.

967
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: Mike, you know this about me, I'm a person of faith.

968
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: Nancy writes, it's absurd for non Christians to make assumptions

969
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: or accusations about what Christians do or don't do based

970
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: on what they see in the heavily anti Christian media.

971
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: So did you not just make an assumption about me, girl?

972
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: Because I'm a Christian, I am a person of faith.

973
00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: I was raised in the church. It sounds like you

974
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: are the one making assumptions about me.

975
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the idea that we were attacking all Christians,

976
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: or that the Hallow app a subscription based digital service

977
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 2: created by a group of people who are running a

978
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 2: national surveillance system and deporting immigrants, refugees, and longtime residents,

979
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: and mass splitting up husbands and wives, separating children from

980
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: their parents, and inspiring fear and entire communities. I'm no

981
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 2: expert in Christian theology, but my understanding is that Jesus

982
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: was against that kind of thing, the idea that they

983
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 2: speak for all Christians. I know a lot of Christians

984
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: that would disagree with that.

985
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would count myself as one of those Christians.

986
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about Live Action, the anti

987
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: choice organization that wrote the piece about us in the podcast,

988
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: because I know Live Action. I used to work for

989
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: Planned Parenthood, so I know exactly who these people are

990
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: and exactly what they do. Live Action is an anti

991
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: abortion nonprofit founded by Lila Rose. She started as a

992
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: teenager and it's been running it for about two decades.

993
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: They have a huge social media presence, and Lyla Rose,

994
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:12,439
Speaker 1: the head of Live Action, is one of the people

995
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: who delivers prayers on the app, including the prayer that

996
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: I described in the initial episode on the Roundup as

997
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: a mean which we'll get back to. I'll give you

998
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: a quick and dirty rundown of the kind of stuff

999
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: that they do, and you all can be the judge.

1000
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: So years ago, Lila Rose partnered with James o'keith of

1001
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: Project Veritas. Do remember that Project Veritas? Oh, I definitely

1002
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: remember Project Veritas. Are they no longer with us?

1003
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 2: I don't know what they're up to these days, okay,

1004
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 2: but I do remember this was God it was probably

1005
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 2: was it twenty years ago now fifteen, when James O'Keefe

1006
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 2: was like the guy on like conservative social media. They

1007
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 2: all loved him and his series of manufactured videos taking

1008
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 2: down own left leaning institutions.

1009
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,919
Speaker 1: So James O'Keefe today, who's ousted from Project Veritas over

1010
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: allegations of financial mismanagement, which he denied, And so years ago,

1011
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: Lyla Rose partnered with James O'Keeffe of the Veritis Project

1012
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: to produce undercover sting videos at Planned Parenthood clinics. Now

1013
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: Planned Parenthood's president at the time called those videos selectively

1014
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: and maliciously edited. Rose was forced to take some of

1015
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: them down after a cease and desist, citing California privacy laws,

1016
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: and so these videos are widely criticized as dishonest tactics.

1017
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: Now that criticism is not just coming from abortion advocates

1018
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: like me. Some of that criticism is coming from within

1019
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: the anti abortion movement itself, people who sensibly should be

1020
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: Lyla Rose's allies. Fellow Catholic writers. People who share her

1021
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: position about abortion have argued that Catholic teachings for bid

1022
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: deception even in service of good call. So again, these

1023
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: are not abortion advocates. These are her people who are saying, oh,

1024
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: your tactics are actually deceptive and we don't fuck with that.

1025
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: Lyla Rose's own one time collaborator acknowledge to the La

1026
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: Times that quote. He and Rose have received criticism from

1027
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: some of their associates for using deception, calling it quote

1028
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: a pretty complicated ethical issue, And I don't know, I

1029
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: find that to be kind of a weird statement from

1030
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: somebody who made a career trafficking in deception. I personally

1031
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: feel that the ethics around using deception are not particularly complicated.

1032
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: I think people shouldn't lie. You know who agrees with

1033
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: me The Eighth Commandment Exodus twenty sixteen, which states thou

1034
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor, which prohibits lying.

1035
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: So pretty cut and dry there.

1036
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. I don't think it's particularly complicated.

1037
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 2: I think deception is bad and it's not okay. Even

1038
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 2: when we have something that we want, we're still not

1039
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 2: allowed to lie to get it. Seemed pretty straightforward. I

1040
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: think most people would agree lying is bad.

1041
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: According to Desert News, pro life Catholic writers Don Eaton

1042
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: and William Donnio Junior wrote at the time, quote, even

1043
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: if live action style stings were the only means available

1044
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 1: to turn the American public against abortion, Catholic teaching would

1045
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: still come down firmly against them. And that brings me

1046
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: to something that I find genuinely fascinating about Lila Rose

1047
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: Live Action's head, which is that she does not seem

1048
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: particularly well liked by significant portions of the anti abortion movement.

1049
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: During the twenty twenty four election, Rose said that Donald

1050
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: Trump had quote disqualified himself as the pro life nominee,

1051
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: and the response that got from conservative figures was something.

1052
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: She was called a grifter, and she was accused of

1053
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: prioritizing fundraising and growing her own public profile over doing

1054
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: the work that would actually reduce abortions. Ashley Saint Clair,

1055
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: who we've talked about on the podcast before, accused Lilah

1056
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: Rose of spending donor money on Ritz Carlton events instead

1057
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: of directing funds toward pregnancy resource centers in states where

1058
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: abortion rights were on the ballot. Marjorie Danenspeller of the

1059
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: Susan B. Anthony Pro Life America, which is a major

1060
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: anti abortion organization, publicly broke with Rose's strategy. The Lilah

1061
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: Rose is a grifter accusation I think is particularly stinging

1062
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: because it is coming from people who share her stated goal.

1063
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 1: So again, it is not abortion advocates like me who

1064
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: are criticizing Lyla Rose for this. This is coming from

1065
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: people who hate abortion as much as Lyla Rose does.

1066
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 1: They seem to be taking major issue with some of

1067
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: her organization's tactics and her herself, because it sounds like

1068
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: they're kind of painting a portrait of somebody who is

1069
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: a grifter who has taken all this donor money and

1070
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: then not actually doing anything to combat abortions, which is

1071
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: their shared goal.

1072
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 2: Well, they're funding freelancers to write about our podcast, so

1073
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's something.

1074
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if that is helping to curb abortions. Maybe

1075
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 1: maybe this is all part of the strategy. Anybody who

1076
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: insults Chris Pratt, we write a whole article about if

1077
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: anyone listening has a podcast, no matter how small, I

1078
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: think it could be a good SEO generating practice to

1079
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: talk about the hallow app, mention the app in your title,

1080
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: and mention Chris Pratt in your title. I think it

1081
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: might mean that Nancy Flanders has to write about your

1082
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: podcast and link to it on live action. That's it

1083
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: happened to me, and it happened to Matt Over at

1084
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 1: a Bit Fruity podcast. It's like a bat signal. So

1085
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: if you want a little a little press, a little

1086
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: seo action could be could be a tactic.

1087
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course you gotta get ready for the heat,

1088
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 2: so only do it if you can take it heat.

1089
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: I will, I mean listen. I would put our listenership

1090
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: up to the readership of that blog. Nancy, if you're listening,

1091
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: let me know your analytics. I'll put our listenership up

1092
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 1: against their numbers any day. I would have Nancy on

1093
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 1: the podcast anytime she wants to talk about the hallow

1094
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: app and the things that I brought up here. I

1095
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 1: would love to have her on open Invite. So, yeah,

1096
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: I can take the heat. As soon as we read.

1097
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 2: That article, you know, I was like, oh you were heated.

1098
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 1: Oh a bitch was heated. It reminds me of that

1099
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: line from the Wire. You know, you come at the King,

1100
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: you best.

1101
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 2: Not miss hell Yeah, omar, So what else is there

1102
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 2: to say about Lyla Rose, who is the leader of

1103
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: Live Action, the organization that funded this unjust hit piece

1104
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 2: against us.

1105
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: So there's also a lot of medical misinformation. Nancy, I

1106
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: know you were going to push back, but facts are facts,

1107
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 1: and I'm going to go with the American College of

1108
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 1: Obgyns over you all every time. So I'm sorry. I

1109
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: know we'll never agree on this because we're not living

1110
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: in a shared reality. But to tell you a little

1111
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: bit of context about some of the deceptive information that

1112
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: Live Action has been accused of pushing because Facebook fact

1113
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: checkers back when Facebook used to have fact checking rated false.

1114
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: Rose's claim that quote abortion is never medically necessary, a

1115
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: claim that directly contradicts the American College of Obgyns. Lyla

1116
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: has also claimed that hormonal birth control is quote massively unhealthy,

1117
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: which side note we did a whole episode about medical

1118
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 1: misinformation and hormonal birth control, which will put in the

1119
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: show notes. I am not saying that hormonal birth control

1120
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 1: does not come with risks, but calling it massively unhealthy

1121
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: is not medically or scientifically correct. It's not supported by

1122
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 1: the science. She also says that it causes divorce and

1123
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: hookup culture. I guess those are her opinions that don't

1124
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: make them facts because they're not facts. This is something

1125
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 1: this woman thinks. And all of this, to me kind

1126
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 1: of connects back to Peter Teel's fertility app because these people,

1127
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: what it is is that they want white women to

1128
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: go off birth control using their fertility app, to have kids,

1129
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 1: and to stay preyed up on the hallow app. And

1130
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 1: they want all of this to be happening on a

1131
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: tech ecosystem that they run. That is very clear to me.

1132
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: I think that's what's going on. And just as a

1133
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 1: little aside, like I wasn't even sure where to put

1134
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: this in the conversation, and I want to say it plainly.

1135
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 1: Live Action used to employ a man named Ruben Verstougie,

1136
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: and Ruben Verstugie was later convicted of distributing, receiving, and

1137
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: possessing child sexual abuse material. So yeah, we have an

1138
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: organization like Live Action that positions itself as the moral

1139
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: authority on protecting women and children. That same organization, Live

1140
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: Action employed somebody convicted of sex crimes against children. I'm

1141
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: not going to editorialize further. I think the facts speak

1142
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: for themselves about who these people are. More. After a

1143
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:11,439
Speaker 1: quick break, let's get right.

1144
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 2: Back into it, all right, So these are the people

1145
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 2: that are be behind and speaking for in front of

1146
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 2: the Hallow app as well as live action. Let's turn

1147
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 2: back to the piece specifically that was about our segment

1148
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 2: and yeah, I'm so, you know, it's nice, nice to

1149
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 2: be recognized, nice to be talked about. But what were

1150
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 2: your thoughts about this piece that Nancy wrote about us?

1151
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 1: So Nancy's piece takes issue with a few of the

1152
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 1: things that I said that I wanted to address here.

1153
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: So one of the things that she takes issue with

1154
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: is that I talked about how the founder of the app,

1155
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: Alex Jones, at times positions the content on the app

1156
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: as just what sounds like to me content rather than

1157
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: explicitly purely ministry or religious doctrine. Again, this is not

1158
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: my characterization. I am quoting from the founder, Alex Jones.

1159
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: Alex Jones has said publicly that he wants to reach

1160
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: people who are quote not particularly religious on the social

1161
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: media platforms they most frequent. To me, that sounds like

1162
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 1: he is describing a content distribution strategy. He is talking

1163
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: about content and reach and platforms the way that I

1164
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: would expect a media executive to talk about those things. Now,

1165
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: Nancy's defense is that Hallow is quote unapologetically pro life

1166
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 1: and proudly and unepivocally Catholic. Now that is her framing

1167
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: in that article that she wrote about us. That is

1168
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 1: also the CEO's framing. When that framing is convenient because

1169
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: in November twenty twenty three, Hallow partnered with Liam Neeson

1170
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: for their Advent series. Nison, who also narrated a pro

1171
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,759
Speaker 1: abortion campaign at An Ireland, calling the Catholic church quote

1172
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: a cruel ghost of the last century. When Catholics pushed

1173
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: back that Nisson had been included as a voice on

1174
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: the Hallow app, Jones did not apologize. He defended that decision,

1175
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 1: saying that the Hallow app is quote not a place

1176
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: of judgment, and that the app needed non traditional partners

1177
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 1: like Nissan to reach folks that have fallen away, so

1178
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: people who are not particularly religious, just like Jones said,

1179
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 1: just like I said, he said. Jones held that position

1180
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: for over a year, then in December of twenty twenty

1181
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 1: four reversed course and called it a mistake. But the

1182
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,800
Speaker 1: same language that he used partnering with Russell Brand he

1183
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 1: also used for partnering with Liam Neeson.

1184
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean those are equivalent things, right, like making

1185
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 2: someone who is accused of sexual assault your spokesperson, having

1186
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 2: a spokesperson who is pro abortion totally the same.

1187
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: Yes, So this point of contention that Nancy raises in

1188
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: the piece was in response to me saying that even

1189
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 1: though at times Alex Jones has made it seem like

1190
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: he's just trying to put out content for people who

1191
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 1: are not particularly religious, they also include these anti abortion

1192
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:15,679
Speaker 1: prayers by folks like the head of Live Action, Lila Rose.

1193
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 1: To me, that seems like a little bit of a

1194
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,959
Speaker 1: bait and switch where you're trying to get non religious

1195
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: people over with just general spiritual content. When they get there,

1196
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 1: they have prayers like this anti abortion prayer, which I

1197
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 1: described in that episode as a mean prayer, So you

1198
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 1: could understand why it's maybe not clear on whether or

1199
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 1: not this is an app that is explicitly and only

1200
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 1: about amplifying the Catholic anti abortion religious doctrine, because the

1201
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 1: CEO has argued for both depending on who's asking and

1202
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 1: what he needs to defend. And here's the real kicker.

1203
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 1: To me, One of the loudest voices condemning the Nissan

1204
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 1: partnership was Lila Rose, the head of Live Action Who

1205
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 1: diesc that Hallow had been sponsoring her show right up

1206
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:08,440
Speaker 1: until that controversy. So Nancy's own boss pulled her sponsorship

1207
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: over Liam Neeson. And now we have Nancy writing pieces

1208
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: defending that app in these very particular ways, making these

1209
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 1: claims about what it's supposed to be and what it's

1210
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 1: not supposed to be. It just doesn't make sense to me.

1211
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 1: And it's not surprising that giving these contradictory positions that

1212
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: CEO Alex Jones has held, it might be a little

1213
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: bit confusing.

1214
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does seem a little bit confusing, Like how

1215
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 2: doctrinal is it. It seems like it has shifted over

1216
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 2: time and maybe not in a consistent way.

1217
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 1: Yes, she also took a lot of issue with me

1218
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 1: calling Lila Rose's anti abortion prayers on the Hallow app mean.

1219
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: I stand by that they are mean prayers. One of

1220
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 1: the prayers Jesus, we pray for every woman who is

1221
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 1: considering abortion in a special way, for those who are

1222
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: pregnant from acts of rap or incest. May every woman

1223
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 1: know the goodness and beauty of her own life and

1224
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: so be able to receive the gift of her child's life.

1225
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 1: I found that to be a condescending, mean, judgmental prayer.

1226
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 1: I absolutely stand by that, especially given that the CEO

1227
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 1: of the Hallow Prayer APP explicitly said that the APP

1228
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 1: is quote not a place of judgment. So having these

1229
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: prayers telling women who have had abortions that they should

1230
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: behave a certain way, or should do or not do

1231
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 1: a certain thing, that is judgment, the kind of thing

1232
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: that Jones publicly said the APP should not be about.

1233
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:34,759
Speaker 1: So which is it? Because my faith is not about

1234
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 1: making judgments toward other people's difficult and private personal medical decisions.

1235
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: My faith doesn't tell me to do that. I stand

1236
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 1: by saying that that is a mean, condescending prayer that

1237
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: looks down on the very people that I think Jesus

1238
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,759
Speaker 1: would actually show love for. And I mentioned this earlier,

1239
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:57,799
Speaker 1: but Nancy says, and I'm quoting directly, it is absurd

1240
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 1: for non Christians to make assumptions or actus about what

1241
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: Christians do or don't do. Nancy, why do you assume

1242
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 1: that I'm not a person of faith? Why do you

1243
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 1: assume that I'm not a Christian. Nancy assumes that I

1244
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: have no relationship with faith based on what exactly, based

1245
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: on the fact that I criticized a venture capital backed

1246
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 1: app that I feel exploits the faith of people like me. Nancy,

1247
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 1: for your information, I am a person of faith. I

1248
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 1: grew up in the Church. I have said that many

1249
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 1: times on this podcast, including the episode that Nancy summarized.

1250
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,839
Speaker 1: My critique of the Hallow app is not anti Christian.

1251
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,679
Speaker 1: In fact, I would argue that it is pro faith

1252
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: because I am asking whether or not billionaires should be

1253
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 1: monetizing one of the most intimate relationships that people have,

1254
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 1: the relationship they have with their God. That question comes

1255
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 1: from a place of my deep respect for faith and spirituality,

1256
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: not in spite of it, Nancy. I don't think that

1257
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 1: the Hallow app, nor Nancy, nor Live Action, nor Lilah

1258
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 1: Rose have deep respect and reverence for the sanctity and

1259
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: intimacy of people's faith and connection with the spiritual world

1260
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:13,600
Speaker 1: and God, because if they did, they would not be

1261
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: so keen to exploit it so callously. That's how I

1262
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 1: feel as a Christian. Nancy. You let me know how

1263
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 1: you feel as a person of faith. Nancy I would

1264
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 1: love to hear it, but do not take this from me.

1265
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm simply one person of faith after all. Take it

1266
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 1: from Catholics who are asking questions about the Hallow app

1267
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: on Reddit, who said things like, and I'm quoting a

1268
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 1: real person from the Catholicisms of Reddit, prayer is not

1269
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 1: a product. Sacramentals are not magical talismans, and Christianity is

1270
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:47,480
Speaker 1: not a self improvement fan. It is a real relationship

1271
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: with Jesus. Now that's a Catholic person saying that about

1272
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: this app. Another one, I recall seeing an ad that

1273
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:57,640
Speaker 1: highlighted influential Catholics, and I had the expectation that it

1274
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,760
Speaker 1: would feature renowned saints or figures deeply rooted in Catholic history. No,

1275
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 1: they included Mark Wahlberg. I also find that interesting person

1276
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: on Reddit. These are Catholics raising these concerns, Nancy, not

1277
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 1: anti Christians. These are people that you ostensibly should be

1278
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: in community with. I'm just amplifying what they have to

1279
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,559
Speaker 1: say and agreeing with them based in the way that

1280
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 1: we understand our faith. Another thing that Nancy chose not

1281
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: to address that we did raise in that episode is

1282
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 1: that we talked on the original episode about the fact

1283
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,799
Speaker 1: that the Hallow app was removed from the EU market.

1284
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: CEO Alex Jones posted about it on Twitter, saying that

1285
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 1: the EU was quote shutting us down by overregulation, apparently

1286
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: targeting any religious app. A lot of religious media sort

1287
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 1: of picked that up and ran with it at face value,

1288
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:48,759
Speaker 1: framing it as some kind of religious persecution. The EU

1289
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 1: coming after Christians was the whole thing was very dramatic.

1290
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:56,520
Speaker 1: But here is the much more likely and boring reality.

1291
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,839
Speaker 1: The Digital Services Act and the GDPR, which are Europe's

1292
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 1: DIDAD privacy frameworks, treat religious beliefs as they should, meaning

1293
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 1: that they treat them as a special category of sensitive

1294
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: data requiring extra protections. Any app collecting that kind of

1295
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: data has additional compliance obligations. So I don't know if

1296
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 1: I would call that the persecution of Christians, given that

1297
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 1: the same rules apply to health apps, political apps, or

1298
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:26,640
Speaker 1: any other kind of app deemed to be handling particularly

1299
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:32,680
Speaker 1: sensitive personal information. So Jones never really explained what specific

1300
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: regulation was being triggered. He never really gave a follow up,

1301
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 1: never really gave details. Just like, the EU is persecuting

1302
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: us because they don't like that we're Christians and it's

1303
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 1: Christians under attack. I'm quite sure that this generated a

1304
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 1: lot of media sympathy and probably a lot of subscriptions

1305
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 1: as well. Nancy, if you have more information about what

1306
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: actually happened here, genuinely, I would love to know. It

1307
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:58,760
Speaker 1: seems like it's really could be part of your beat.

1308
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 1: Since you report so much on the hallow app, what

1309
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 1: actually happened when the hallow app was pulled from the

1310
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 1: EU markets. I think people of faith deserve to know

1311
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: whether their most intimate connections with the divine are being

1312
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:14,679
Speaker 1: potentially mishandled as just another form of data, or even

1313
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 1: being exploited. Girl, you're a journalist, you are on the

1314
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 1: hallow app beat. Here's a scoop for you to look

1315
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: into if you want to do some real journalism that

1316
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 1: advocates for your people, Christians, Catholics. Come on, girl, come

1317
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 1: on the show. You can even talk about your findings.

1318
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: You would love to have you.

1319
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 2: It is sort of funny to frame privacy protections as persecution, Like, no,

1320
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 2: they're not persecuting Christians, they're protecting them from data aggregators.

1321
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:50,520
Speaker 1: Yes, and they're protecting folks from data aggregators from mishandling

1322
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:55,880
Speaker 1: or misusing the most sacred parts of their spiritual connection

1323
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 1: with their faith and spirituality. And it goes back to

1324
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 1: something that you said about the victim narrative here, because

1325
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 1: again we don't know exactly what happened, because Alex Jones

1326
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 1: was not very transparent about what happened, but we know

1327
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 1: from his public tweets that he framed it as this persecution.

1328
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:14,640
Speaker 1: And it's just very interesting to me that, having to

1329
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:20,520
Speaker 1: abide by what is probably like very boring data privacy

1330
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:25,280
Speaker 1: compliance issues, is like, no Christians are being persecuted like that,

1331
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:26,679
Speaker 1: Like that's victim shit.

1332
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's certainly not a new idea, right, Like

1333
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 2: Christians were actually being persecuted from the very beginning of Christianity, right,

1334
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,799
Speaker 2: Like the Romans were literally persecuting them and like outlawing

1335
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 2: Christianity and killing them. And I think a really interesting

1336
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 2: time in Western history is when Christianity transitioned from being

1337
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 2: a persecuted minority to having to actually being the elite

1338
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:58,519
Speaker 2: classes and like ruling Rome and ruling the world. And

1339
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 2: looking at the transformations that had to happen to the

1340
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:09,400
Speaker 2: ideology and the doctrine to allow that transition to occur,

1341
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 2: because my read on that early history is that things

1342
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 2: were pretty different when it was a bunch of poor

1343
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:22,839
Speaker 2: people huddling together, you know, sharing all of their money.

1344
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 2: And then when the faith entered the halls of power

1345
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 2: and government, a lot of things changed. And I think,

1346
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 2: you know, I would be interested if any listeners wanted

1347
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 2: to write in with thoughts about parallels between that transition

1348
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 2: and what we see today with like Peter Thiel and JD.

1349
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 2: Vance running a surveillance apparatus and building apps that collect

1350
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 2: so much of our data.

1351
01:19:56,439 --> 01:20:09,040
Speaker 1: More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

1352
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 1: I am so glad that you made that transition to

1353
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: wondering how we got to this place that Christianity is

1354
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,679
Speaker 1: treated in the United States today, because again it goes

1355
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 1: back to that thing of being the getting to occupy

1356
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:27,439
Speaker 1: both the hero and the victim stance, where Christianity is

1357
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 1: the most common of the religions in the United States,

1358
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:33,639
Speaker 1: and yet people are able to talk about it as

1359
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: if Christians are a persecuted minority. You know, some of

1360
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 1: the things that people will highlight to demonstrate this is

1361
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 1: they took the Christ out of Christ. We can't even

1362
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 1: say Merry Christmas anymore. Things like that like the way

1363
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: that people get to talk about Christianity as if they

1364
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 1: are this downtrodden, persecuted minority. Well also essentially, especially right

1365
01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 1: now today, pyeing every seat of power, you know, like

1366
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:05,599
Speaker 1: it just doesn't make any sense to me. It's also

1367
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if you watched that episode of South

1368
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:11,880
Speaker 1: Park where Jesus, their depiction of Jesus, is dating a

1369
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: Christian woman and it becomes clear in the episode that

1370
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:18,719
Speaker 1: her version of Christianity is just like having large breasts

1371
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:21,080
Speaker 1: and blonde hair and like being kind of mean to

1372
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:24,639
Speaker 1: everybody around her, judging everybody around her, and they spend

1373
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 1: very little time practicing any real Christianity beyond that. Do

1374
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about?

1375
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 2: I do. I did really enjoy this most recent season

1376
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 2: of South Park. But yeah, maybe we should have a

1377
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,680
Speaker 2: whole episode about it, because it was quite brilliant. But

1378
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 2: in the interest of time, let's bring it back around

1379
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:43,480
Speaker 2: to the Hallow app.

1380
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: Okay, As I've said, other anti abortion folks, folks who

1381
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,599
Speaker 1: are also religious folks who put themselves in the camp

1382
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 1: of people like Live Action and Lila Rose. They have

1383
01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: raised issue with Lila Rose for practicing in deception again

1384
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,440
Speaker 1: that is not me saying this. I am simply echoing

1385
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 1: what folks who ostensibly should be Lyla Rosa's allies. I'm

1386
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 1: just echoing what they have said. So it's not me

1387
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 1: saying that. And the reason I want to say that

1388
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:17,760
Speaker 1: is because these people are liars. Their own community, their

1389
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 1: own people call them out as fraudsters, grifters, and liars.

1390
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 1: And I want to close by the biggest lie, in

1391
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: my opinion, that these people like to purport Nancy's peace

1392
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 1: and live action. More broadly, in my opinion, operate from

1393
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 1: the assumption that their position on abortion represents a mainstream,

1394
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: common sense American value, that people like me who support

1395
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:50,720
Speaker 1: abortion access that we are radicals, we are extremists, and

1396
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:55,800
Speaker 1: that they, in fact are the silent moral majority. And

1397
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: I just have to say this, that to me is

1398
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 1: the biggest lie these organizations tell, because the numbers are

1399
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:05,440
Speaker 1: very clear. The numbers are not even a little bit ambiguous.

1400
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 1: Sixty three percent of Americans say abortion should be legal

1401
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:13,400
Speaker 1: in most or all cases. That is consistent across Pew Research,

1402
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 1: Gallup Research, ap Nork Research, and PRRII, the Public Religion

1403
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 1: Research Institute, and multiple independent pollsters all consistently find the

1404
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:30,040
Speaker 1: same thing. Americans like abortion. We want abortion access protected

1405
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:34,280
Speaker 1: across the board. This is not a controversial opinion since

1406
01:23:34,320 --> 01:23:38,679
Speaker 1: the DABS decision. Support for abortion has not dropped since

1407
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court overturned Row. If anything, overturning Row slightly

1408
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: increased support for legal abortion. When you do a state

1409
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: by state breakdown, literally, Arkansas is the only state of

1410
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:55,080
Speaker 1: the fifty states where a majority wants abortion illegal by

1411
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:58,559
Speaker 1: a statistically significant margin. Places that you think of as

1412
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:03,360
Speaker 1: like deep red Bible places Louisiana, Wyoming, Kentucky, states with

1413
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: near total bands their own residents, still support legal abortion

1414
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:12,080
Speaker 1: fifty four to forty five. A twenty twenty five Gallup

1415
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:16,560
Speaker 1: poll in May found that only eight percent of Americans

1416
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 1: want abortion illegal in all cases. That's down from fifteen

1417
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 1: percent in twenty ten. Even among Republicans, it's only thirteen

1418
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:26,680
Speaker 1: percent who want abortion illegal in all cases. That's down

1419
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 1: from twenty two percent in twenty ten. So live actions

1420
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 1: actual position that abortion should be illegal in all cases,

1421
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:39,080
Speaker 1: no exceptions is held by just eight percent of Americans.

1422
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 1: Eight percent. I mean, the numbers don't lie. It's not close,

1423
01:24:43,320 --> 01:24:47,600
Speaker 1: it's not inconsistent, it is not authorny controversial issues. It

1424
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,799
Speaker 1: could not be clearer from the data that Americans' minds

1425
01:24:50,840 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 1: are made up about abortion. We like it, we want

1426
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 1: it protected. Abortion is popular and well liked by Americans.

1427
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 1: It is not controversial. People like Lilah Rose and Live

1428
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 1: Actions are not people fighting for the silent majority. Quite

1429
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:09,880
Speaker 1: the opposite. They are a well funded, extremely organized, extreme

1430
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:13,800
Speaker 1: minority of extremists and radicals, and they have managed to

1431
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 1: impose their extreme will on this country. Not because most

1432
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:20,600
Speaker 1: Americans agree with them, the polling is very clear that

1433
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 1: most Americans do not agree with them, but because they

1434
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:26,519
Speaker 1: are disciplined, they are strategic, They are well funded, and

1435
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 1: they are comfortable with what their own allies describe as

1436
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:34,880
Speaker 1: quote deceptive practices or lies. They also have a lot

1437
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:38,719
Speaker 1: of money from people like Peter Tield. Organizations like Live

1438
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 1: Action know that their actual positions are deeply unpopular with

1439
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:46,679
Speaker 1: the American public, which is why they have to lie

1440
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,679
Speaker 1: about those positions, which is why they have to dress

1441
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,519
Speaker 1: those positions up in moral, judgmental language, which is why

1442
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 1: when someone like me calls them out about it in

1443
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 1: a podcast, they have to write a piece about Chris

1444
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 1: Prat instead of engaging with the substance of my actual argument,

1445
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 1: because if they actually engaged with the substance of my

1446
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 1: actual arguments that a surveillance backed, venture capital funded app

1447
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,639
Speaker 1: is monetizing your faith while it's the biggest partner, has

1448
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: not even apologized to the black child he threw rocks at,

1449
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 1: while it also partnered with the man now facing six

1450
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 1: counts of rape charges, while it's backed by the guy

1451
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,200
Speaker 1: that built a deportation and surveillance machine, they would lose

1452
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:29,680
Speaker 1: and they know it.

1453
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 2: Dann Bridget really bringing it to him.

1454
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:38,400
Speaker 1: Yes, Lastly, one of her criticisms is that I only

1455
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 1: have smoke for Christians like Chris Pratt, she writes. Todd

1456
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 1: also accused Pratt of acting like a victim for these

1457
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,919
Speaker 1: conservative stances, and said that she can't stand that Pratt's

1458
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 1: politics are very clear, despite the fact that she does

1459
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:54,600
Speaker 1: not seem to be bothered by the overt politics of

1460
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:58,519
Speaker 1: those in the entertainment industry who oppose Christian beliefs. Now,

1461
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: this is how I know Nancy doesn't know a thing

1462
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:03,559
Speaker 1: about me, and it's just grasping at weak assumptions of

1463
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:07,479
Speaker 1: who I am, because anybody who knows me, anybody who

1464
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: listens to this podcast know that I am the world's

1465
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:13,320
Speaker 1: biggest hater. I have negative shit to say about everybody,

1466
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 1: literally all the time. Did you not listen to our

1467
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:19,759
Speaker 1: conversation about my thoughts on one battle after another. Nobody

1468
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:21,640
Speaker 1: is a bigger hater than me.

1469
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 2: It's also just not true that you said that the

1470
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 2: thing you don't like about him is that his politics

1471
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:27,080
Speaker 2: are very clear.

1472
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:31,519
Speaker 1: No, she also that quote misrepresents what I said. I

1473
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:33,680
Speaker 1: said that his politics are very clear to me, but

1474
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 1: that the reason why I don't like him is not

1475
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:38,160
Speaker 1: even about his politics. So like that also just mangles

1476
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 1: my point, which is that I don't even care that

1477
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:42,639
Speaker 1: he's a conservative. I care that he paints himself out

1478
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 1: to be this downtrodden victim every chance that he gets

1479
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 1: while simultaneously starring in some of the biggest, most well

1480
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:52,840
Speaker 1: funded movie franchises on the planet. So, Nancy, if you

1481
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:55,719
Speaker 1: are still listening, we welcome you to come on the show.

1482
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 1: I can promise you a respectful conversation. I think we

1483
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 1: would have a good time. I would actually love to

1484
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 1: speak with you. But in closing, I will say this,

1485
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:11,320
Speaker 1: Hello app Silo Rose Live Nation Chris Brett as a

1486
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 1: staff a record label and a crew, and if you

1487
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 1: want to be down with them, then you two got

1488
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just

1489
01:28:27,479 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 1: want to say hi. You can reach us at Hello

1490
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,040
Speaker 1: at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for

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Speaker 1: today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls

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Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. It's

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as

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Speaker 1: our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review

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Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check

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Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts. And when my heart list Maha will list