1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: On June seventeenth, two thousand and seven, at around two 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: thirty a m bars emptied out into the streets of Camden, 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: New Jersey amid the crowd in the parking lot of 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: the seventh and Cane Lounge. Gunshots struck twenty four year 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: old Tierra Presley and thirty two year old Adrian Jackson, 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: but only Jackson survived and he was unable to offer 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: any leads. About six months later, Jackson was secretly recorded 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: speculating about the identity of his assailants, narrowing his suspects 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: to someone called Baby Jay and later another called Papa smurfh, 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: which led police to Madford Younger and Anthony Parker, the 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: latter of whom was acquitted, but two jail house informants 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: claimed that Madford Younger had admitted to being one of 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: the shooters, sending him away for a minimum of sixty 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: six years. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. 15 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for 16 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back 18 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got a New Jersey case. 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: There haven't been many of those featured here, but that's 20 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: about to change. And calling in to tell his story 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: from a New Jersey correctional facility, Manfred Younger, Manfred, thanks 22 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: for joining us. 23 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: Thank you, man I appreciate it. 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: And joining Manford to help him tell this insane story 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: is a voice you're going to recognize. Justin Bonas, who's 26 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: been spending a great deal of time in Manfred's hometown 27 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: of Cambden, New Jersey, where he's uncovered quite a few 28 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: cases in a town that has a history of poverty 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: and corruption from law enforcement all the way up to 30 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: mayors who had promised urban renewal and economic revitalization. 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, because there's no improvement ever in Camden. I think 32 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: at one point they had four straight mayors that were 33 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: federally indicted. And then there's a period from like nineteen 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 3: ninety to twenty thirteen when the Camden County Police Department 35 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: was so corrupt. Camden is basically taken over by the 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 3: county in twenty twelve. Right before there was a takeover, 37 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 3: there were like sixty homicides in a city that's only 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 3: like seventy five eighty thousand people the most and they 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 3: weren't solving them, and then the ones that they were solving. 40 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 3: There's a lot of wrongful convictions, but there is a 41 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: sweet spot that I'm working on from like ninety nine 42 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 3: to like twenty eleven, and the show starts for real 43 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 3: with Martin Devlin, him and his partner Chuck Bentham. I 44 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 3: come to Camden from Phillya and what Devlin became a supervisor. 45 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: There's a pattern of single photo identifications and jailhouse informants. 46 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: Which is exactly what we're dealing with in this case. 47 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: In our audience, you may recall Detective Martin Devlin from 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: some Philly cases that we covered, Jimmy Dennis, Tony Wright, 49 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: Walter Ogrod, Troy Coleman. And after playing his trade in 50 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: Philadelphia for twenty five long years, he crossed over the 51 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: bridge into one of the most impoverished cities in all 52 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: of America, Camden, New Jersey, where he continued his career 53 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: as an investigator in the Camden County Prosecutor's Office. While 54 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: Manfred was growing up. 55 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in the city of Canaden then 56 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: with my mom and my sister and my father. My 57 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: father named Manfred J. Younger Jenior. So my name Manfred J. 58 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: Younger Junior. So I got the baby J after my father. 59 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: I grew up playing community football and stuff that was good. 60 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: But we grew up hard city of Canda and the poverty. 61 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: It's messed up out there. We ain't have hot water. 62 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: We had to heat the house up with the oven, 63 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: boil hot water on the stove. You know, wear each 64 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: other clothes where your friends clothed. When it rained, when 65 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: it's a thunderstorm or snowstorm, it come through the ceiling. 66 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: It was bad in Camden. Ninety five percent of the 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: people is poor. Because of our population, it's only seventy 68 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 2: thousand people. We get overlooked. The only reason why we 69 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: get noticed is because the crime rate. Other than that, 70 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: we don't have nothing. Your mom and them had to 71 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: have money though, like growing up. If not, you had 72 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 2: to go to the streets. It ain't excuse, but time 73 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: get hard, desperation and that's when I went to the streets. 74 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: By Manfred's perspective, dealing drugs and carrying a gun was 75 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: necessary for survival in Camden, all of which made him 76 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: vulnerable to prosecution as well as violence. Street violence and 77 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: one of the victims in this case, Adrian Jackson, Well, 78 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 1: he was in the same boat, although he wasn't exactly 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: Anfred's contemporary. 80 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 3: Adrian Jackson is significantly older than Manfred, younger by a lot. 81 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 3: Everyone believed that Adrian Jackson was the target. He has 82 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 3: issues with older people in the drug world and Camden, 83 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 3: who Manfred had some type of affiliation with, But there 84 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: was never any real connection here. 85 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 2: I ain't never hang with him and not like that. 86 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: All them god older than me. 87 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: Adrian Jackson had also cooperated in a case in the 88 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: late nineties, so there were motivated parties on the night 89 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: that he was shot, none of whom were Manfred, and 90 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: along with Jackson, an innocent young woman named Tiera Presley 91 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: had also been shot. It was a Saturday night, June 92 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: sixteenth into the early hours of June seventeenth, two thousand 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: and seven, when both victims were out on the town 94 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: with Tiera's cousin, Tia Hannah. 95 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 3: They're at a place called Seventh and Caine and what 96 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 3: they would consider the downtown area of Camden, New Jersey, 97 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: at around two thirty in the morning is when they 98 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 3: leave out of the bar. 99 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: Last call is two am. In New Jersey, so everyone 100 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: else was leaving with them, emptying out into this dirt 101 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: parking lot next to the bar that was adjacent to 102 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: the projects. Now it was a warm night where folks 103 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: were already hanging out in front of their buildings as. 104 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: Well, and Adrian Jackson is talking to Tierra and Tia, 105 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: I guess walked off a little bit with another woman 106 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: named Maisha Ronett Brown. It's not well lit, and two 107 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: men came out of nowhere and fired a lot of shots. 108 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 3: Presley was hit six seven times. Jackson was hit over 109 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 3: ten times. The way he shot it, it's very difficult 110 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: to determine whether he could have seen it because he's 111 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: like shot in the side and then he's like spun 112 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 3: around when. 113 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: He shot Tia. 114 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,559 Speaker 1: Hannah and a man named John Freelan ushered Tiara into 115 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: her car and drove it to the hospital curiously, though 116 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: without Adrian Jackson. 117 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Jackson stays at the scene and he's just standing 118 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 3: there and people are like freaked out. His adrenaline had 119 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: kicked in so much. And then at some point I 120 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: think he sits down and passes out or something, and 121 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: then he gets picked up an ambulance takes him to 122 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 3: the hospital. 123 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: So by the time police had arrived, the crowd had dispersed, 124 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: including Maisha Runnett Brown and her boyfriend Richard Barge, who 125 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: becomes important later, but for now, the police forego a 126 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: vigorous canvas for eyewitnesses and instead they hope to speak 127 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: with the victims as well as Tia Hannah. 128 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: Jackson lived amazingly. Tierra dies. Unfortunately, this was an innocent 129 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: girl that was killed. Everybody knew that this was a 130 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: very big deal. These are not people that didn't want 131 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 3: to cooperate. But Tia Hannah tells the Prosecutor's office investigator 132 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: Diane Wilson, over and over again, I can't make an 133 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 3: idea right and Jackson, I mean, it's only by the 134 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: grace of God that Dismand's alive. I mean, he's spun 135 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: around like a top. He was in the hospital for 136 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: over a month before he became coherent to speak. And 137 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 3: I mean, Adrian Jackson's a criminal. Okay, he has a 138 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 3: terrible background, but let me be clear with you. Adrian 139 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: Jackson cooperated before, so this is not a guy that's 140 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 3: apprehensive to talk to the police. And Adrian Jackson tells them, look, 141 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: I was drunk when I came out, I don't know 142 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: who shot me, and he's like, you seem like you 143 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 3: don't believe me. If I knew who it was, I 144 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: would tell you. 145 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: And so without any legitimate leads, the investigation kind of 146 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: switched course. It changed tactics right around the same time 147 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: that Manford was arrested for an unrelated matter on July fifteenth, 148 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, possession of an illegal firearm. 149 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: I'm from the city of Camden, so I got caught 150 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: with a weapon. That's the only way you know how 151 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: to protect yourself. I was in the corner store against 152 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: something to eat, and then the cops ran in there 153 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: because they were doing the search of like a drug area, 154 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: and then they searched me, and I had a gun 155 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: on me. I didn't have it legally. So anytime say 156 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: a fahamicide happened or shooting happened, and you might get 157 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: locked up with drugs or whatever. Being as duff you 158 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 2: from that area where it happened, they would try to 159 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: question you and get you to act like you know something. 160 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: You see you know what I'm saying. And Diane Wilson, 161 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: she comes in there, I don't know her she don't 162 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: know me, so being a dawn young she probably figured like, oh, well, 163 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: he might want to get out of this case. So 164 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: she started asking me about crime around the area and 165 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 2: not just this murder, several murders, and I'm like, man 166 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 2: I don't know nothing. So that was my first running 167 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: with her. So now that's where she was familiar with 168 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: the name baby j But I had bailed out from 169 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: that weapon Chuck. I came back home three days after 170 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: I was home. I had another case out in another county, 171 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: Gloucester County. I had drugs that time, and I plared 172 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: guilty to probation in ninety days cent So I went 173 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: to Gloucester County for like seventy two days. Then I 174 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: came home September twenty four. 175 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: And while Manford was still in Gloucester County jail on 176 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: the drug charge, Diane Wilson interviewed Adrian Jackson again on 177 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: September sixth, two thousand and seven. 178 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: They press him again, okay, and I believe they actually 179 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 3: dropped Manfred's name and nickname, which is baby j The 180 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: important part about that nickname is there's five other Baby 181 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: James in Camden. Jackson again tells them I don't know 182 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 3: who shot me, okay, And the date of that second 183 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 3: interview for Adrian Jackson is a very big deal. 184 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: And we'll get to why in just a minute. But first, 185 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: around three weeks later, Manford was released from Gloucester County 186 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: and was picked up again three days after his release 187 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: on September twenty seventh, with his friend Jeffrey Jones. 188 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: Well, we got pulled over by Camden County Police. But 189 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: we got to dispatch from the police station where that 190 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: Cox said, I'm behind that vam with baby j and 191 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 2: them in there. So obviously somebody had to tell him 192 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: about who was in a vam. You give you know 193 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: what I'm saying. He lied on a report and said 194 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: we was driving sad basically like it was a regular 195 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: traffic stop and I had a gun. And then I 196 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: was convicted ready for the drug. Once you get a conviction, 197 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: the state tuned to turn it over to the Fed. 198 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: That's when the Federal could charge you. It's called possession 199 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 2: of a whitness by previctor seventh and I got locked 200 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 2: back up September twenty seventh, three days I was home, 201 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: so I had a poll attorney. The first thing he 202 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: said is they don't want you. They want your boy. 203 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: Jones was my cole descendant. They believe that I know 204 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: all this stuff, like I don't know that guy like that. 205 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: So basically he was saying, like, yo, if you give 206 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: up information on him, they'll let you go. So I'm 207 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 2: just collateral damage. I took a flat rate play sixty 208 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: months for the gun charge. All this was in two 209 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: thousand and seven, and I've never seen the streets again. 210 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: Five years in federal prison was able to eventually morph 211 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: into a much longer state sentence, starting with a man 212 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: named Troy Loan. 213 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: Troy Loan got caught with a gun. He wanted the 214 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: way out of prison, so he told detective Wilson that 215 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 2: Adrian Jackson told him who did that to him? So 216 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 2: Roy Long wore a tape recorder on Jackson. On a 217 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: tape recorder, Jackson he ain't say he's seen nobody in 218 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: that he was speculating and they was talking about all 219 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: these other old murders and Jackson admitting to the drug game. 220 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: He's also on wire tap saying that he lied in 221 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: another murder trial and then placed itself at the scene 222 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: of a murder and he wasn't even there. So he's 223 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: already got a pattern of lion fabricating story, but. 224 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: The prosecutor's officer doesn't care about that. And it's this 225 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 3: is what's so outrageous about this surreptitious audio recording. He's 226 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 3: going through in his mind who he thinks may or 227 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: may not have done this. So Jackson starts talking about 228 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: the fact that he has beef with these older gentlemen, 229 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 3: and who is affiliated with these older gentlemen and now 230 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 3: understand this, he knows a nickname, which is Baby j. 231 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: He admits he doesn't know Baby Jack and in this 232 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 3: conversation between him and Troy Loan, he said it couldn't 233 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: have been this guy named Sean, so it had to 234 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: be Baby J. And and he mentions that another guys 235 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 3: a driver. Understand is there were multiple people that watched 236 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: two shooters run from the scene and not get into 237 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 3: a car. They just ran from a scene, right, So 238 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 3: he's guessing and by the process of elimination, he says 239 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 3: it's probably Baby j. 240 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: As we know, Babyjy also happens to be Manfred's nickname, 241 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: but he's not the only Baby Jay in Camden. The 242 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: other nickname Jackson eventually mentioned was Papa Smurf aka Anthony Parker, 243 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: who in turn became Manfred's co defendant. 244 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: Interestingly, with Jackson in the audio to Troy Loan, he 245 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: did not identify Papa Smurf initially Anthony Parker. And again 246 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: this goes to show you that this guy Jackson is 247 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 3: just guessing. 248 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: And Jackson's unreliability was also made clear by something else 249 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: that he said on this audio recording. 250 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: Jackson specifically says that on September sixth of two thousand, 251 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: thousand and seven, when he came out of the prosecutor's 252 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,599 Speaker 3: office after they're asking him about Manfreed Younger and he 253 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 3: doesn't know who this is, that he sees baby jack 254 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 3: driving and he wanted to kill him and doesn't do 255 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: it because it's broad daylight. So there's a huge problem 256 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: with that, which is that Manfred Younger is incarcerated at 257 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 3: that point, So whoever he saw could not have been 258 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 3: Baby J or at least a baby J that's Manfred Younger. 259 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 3: It's impossible. 260 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: This episode of Wrongful Conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase PTSD. 261 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: Now every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds of 262 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: trauma and PTSD your support empowers us to provide life 263 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: changing treatments like the Stelle Ganglon Block SGB, which inhibits 264 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: nerve impulses and helps to restore hope, reclaim lives, and 265 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: save lives after incurs Together, we can ensure that those 266 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal and 267 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to erase 268 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit erase PTSD now dot org. 269 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: That's erase PTSD now dot org for more information and 270 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: ways to get involved. 271 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: The name BABYJ came up. That's when Diane Wilson went 272 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: full throttle. She called Jackson and said, we got new information. 273 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: You know who did it to you? Jackson stated again, 274 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: I told you I don't know who it was. But 275 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: when she pushed play, he got scared for all the 276 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: criminating statements he made about being a big time drug 277 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: dealer having guns, and he gave the name BABYJ with 278 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: no hairstyle, no nothing, no race, no nothing. So she 279 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: went and got one picture of me and showed him. 280 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: Diane Wilson shows him a photo on some this is 281 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 3: the guy right? He says, yes. 282 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: They went to him with one photo, not a photo 283 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: or a one photo of me. 284 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 3: That is the evidence that gets Manfred Younger arrested. 285 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: At this point, it's summer two thousand and eight. Manfred 286 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: was already in federal custody on the September twenty seventh 287 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: the gun charge, and he was brought in for his arraignment. 288 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: I go in the courtroom to get my bill, Diane Wilson, 289 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: get Tia Hannah, and Tia Hannah own words. Diane Wilson 290 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: get her to point me out at her arrangement here. 291 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: She's very adamant that she couldn't make an identification until 292 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: the arraignment. And I mean, come on, the guy's getting 293 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: arraigned for the murder of your cousin, and she's with 294 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: Diane Wilson, Tierra Presley's family, and then all of a sudden, 295 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 3: out of nowhere, a year and a half later, you say, yay, 296 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: he's the one. So Diane Wilson and the Camdens City 297 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 3: Police know that they have a really weak case, and 298 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 3: Devlin is supervising us, and we have a pattern here 299 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: of the then go to the jail house informance, which 300 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 3: is Jamie Channer and Jamal Gibbs. 301 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: When you go to freederal prison. If you're from Jersey, 302 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: you rolle with Jersey people. If you Muslim, you run 303 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: with the Muslims. If whatever click you run with, that's 304 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: your crew. So amongst your crew, you got people who's 305 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: productive for the people of your crew. And you need 306 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: help with your case, you go to the Muslim power 307 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: leaguer Canner he was our paralleger. 308 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: Jamie Channer was a jail house lawyer that helped manfreed 309 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 3: with the allevi It's the extradition process for gun charge 310 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 3: that is totally unrelated. So he sees the probable cause statement, 311 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: the criminal complaint come through, so he knows the name 312 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 3: of the deceased, and the guy who gets shot doesn't 313 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 3: know anything other than that. 314 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 2: He writes Camden County Prosecutor Office and bargain with them 315 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: and say, I know information by the murder, but I 316 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: want three years off. He didn't give the information an 317 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: initial letter. You see what I'm saying. So Diane Wilson 318 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 2: calls him. 319 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 3: Jamie Channer says, hey, this guy admitted to this murder 320 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: over and over and over against He's writing letters to 321 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 3: Diane Wilson, and the information was basically wrong and develops overtime. 322 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: She spoke to that guy five times. If I tell 323 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: you I have a red Mustang today, five years later, 324 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: I should tell you I have a red Mustang. And 325 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: every time he talked to her, he'd come back with 326 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 2: additional information. 327 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: Even after five conversations, he still got the details wrong. 328 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: In the statement that developed, Channer said that Jackson shielded 329 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: himself behind Presley, which is contradicted by witnesses and the forensics. 330 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: Then he gets the motive wrong as well. 331 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: Channer said it was a gang initiated motive, a blood initiates. 332 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: Diane Wilson stipulated that she know I wasn't blood and 333 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: that wasn't even a motive, but she still allowed him 334 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 2: to say that in front of a jority. 335 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Then in comes Jamal Gibbs. 336 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: In October of two thousand and nine. They go get 337 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 3: Jamal Gibbs, who's a serial cooperator. Now Jamal Gibbs's handler 338 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: is Jim Pizzano, but Jamal Gibbs is very close friends 339 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 3: with Martin Devlin. I have information from another case that 340 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 3: Gibbs actually refers to Martin Devlin as Sarge doing an interview. 341 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 3: The cops know exactly who he's talking about Devlin was 342 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 3: supervising Manfred Younger's investigation, and Jamal Gibbs is an admitted killer. 343 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: By this point, he's pled guilty. He's looking to get 344 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 3: out of jail and says, presumably at the behest of Devlin, 345 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 3: that baby Jay admitted the homicide to. 346 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 2: Me when I was in the county, I was gonna 347 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 2: protective cuss to be status. So it's no way we 348 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: can interact, no way. 349 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 3: The interesting thing about that is by this point Gibbs 350 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 3: is cooperating against like ten people, So everybody in the 351 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: Camden County jail knows that Jamal Gibbs us a cooperator. 352 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: He was jumping in people cases like anytime your case 353 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: is weak, Jamal Gibbs ended up inside the case to 354 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: coroborate the motive or theory to strengthen the case. Like 355 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 2: the whole jail knew, stay away from that guy because 356 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: he a lie and fabrication information to get out his 357 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 2: own murder. 358 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: Why would Manfred Younger tell him he committed a murder. 359 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: Never mind that he didn't even have an opportunity to 360 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: do so. Thankfully, other guys came forward to Manfred's attorney 361 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: took discredit Gibbs, which became part of trial strategy when 362 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: Manfred and his co defendant Anthony Parker were tried in 363 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: March twenty eleven, where the state had about five main witnesses, 364 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: including Tia Hannah, who had previously id'd Manfred at his arrangement. 365 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: She recance the idea trial. 366 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 2: A prosecutor to try to get her to say with me. 367 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 2: Tia said, I don't know. I didn't see the guy's face, 368 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: but she's seen the description of brownskin guy with sure hair. 369 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 2: So the prosecutor say, point to the brownskin guy. 370 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: Point to the brownskin guy. 371 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 2: My lawyer. He object. Even the judge said that that 372 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: was wrong. It was petering over the line. 373 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 3: And then she gives an affidavit recanting the ID and 374 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 3: saying this is my cousin. They basically coerced me into 375 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 3: making any identification in this case. 376 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: John Frehlan also testified about trying Tierra Presley to the 377 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: hospital and how Tia Hannah had said even then that 378 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: she couldn't identify the shooter. 379 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 3: Hannah's essentially eliminated, but again the jury sees her point 380 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 3: Manfred out in the courtroom. 381 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: The state also presented Troy Loan, who spoke about recording 382 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: Jackson's speculation about his shooters naming Baby J. Then Adrian 383 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: Jackson id'd Manfred as Baby J from the stand. 384 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 3: What the jury never hears is that on September sixth 385 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 3: of two thousand and seven, when Adrian Jackson says he's 386 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 3: leaving the prosecutor's office and says that he sees manfre 387 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: Younger and wanted to kill him, that could not have 388 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 3: been man for Younger because Manfred Younger was incarcerated. It's 389 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 3: my belief that the attorney did not present that information 390 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 3: because he did not want to admit that his client 391 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: had a criminal record in front of the jury. But 392 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 3: that's a huge piece of evidence that Adrian Jackson did 393 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: not know who Manfred Younger was and his identification is 394 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 3: wholly unreliable. 395 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: Then Adrian Jackson idd Anthony Parker as Papa Smurf. But 396 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: the attorneys did cross examine Jackson about not being able 397 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: to identify his assailants for his first three interviews. 398 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 3: The evidence against Anthony Parker was strictly Adrian Jackson, and 399 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 3: that's it. And look at who got acquitted and who 400 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: got convicted. It's my belief that's why the jailhouse informants 401 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: were so critical in this case. I mean they were 402 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 3: mentioned in the opening statement, and then they were mentioned 403 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 3: a lot in summation by the prosecutor. 404 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: And the jailhouse informants were focused solely on Manfred. As 405 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: we already said, Jamie Lee Channer's statement was unsupported by reality. 406 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 1: Manfred was not a blood and was not ordered by 407 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: the Bloods to kill Jackson. Diane Wilson stipulated to that. Additionally, 408 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: Jackson had not used Presley as a human shield, there 409 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: was no getaway driver, and he also said that Manfred 410 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: did the shooting alone. 411 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: It's just shocking that you a lie like that. Even 412 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: the ballistics show two shooters, two different guns, two different 413 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 2: shell cases. All the witnesses say two shooters, but he 414 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: lie and say I did it myself. Like the physical 415 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 2: evidence outweighed what he talking about. 416 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 3: Jamie Lee Channer even admitted in his own trial testimony 417 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 3: that after Manfred Younger left the federal facility that he 418 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 3: was in, he was getting more information to give to 419 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 3: the prosecutor. Are you kidding me? That means that he 420 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 3: presumably was being fed information from the prosecutor's office. The 421 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 3: whole purpose of a jail house informant is the person 422 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 3: says out of their mouth that they committed this crime. Right, 423 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 3: it's called this statement against penal interest. It goes against 424 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 3: the defendant's interests to admit to committing a crime. So 425 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: therefore it is assumed that those statements are reliable. The 426 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 3: problem with that is when you have a witness that 427 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 3: has a tremendous incentive to lie about what that person said. 428 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: The prosecutor lied, said she didn't give them nothing. He 429 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: lied and said he was coming ford protect the public, 430 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 2: but all alone he got a favor. 431 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 3: Right after Manfred Younger gets sentenced, the prosecutor in the 432 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: case writes a letter to a federal judge saying he 433 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 3: provided substantial assistance give him a time cut. But Jamie 434 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: Channer says, I didn't get anything for my testimony. 435 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: And without this an even more impeachment evidence that was 436 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: discovered after trial, Channer's testimony appeared believable, as did Jamal Gibbs, 437 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: who also claimed to have received nothing in return when 438 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: he testified that he knew Presley from high school and 439 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: press Gibbs about the senseless killing. 440 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: They used the professional snitch Jamal Gibbs to come up 441 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: with a theory and a motive to inflame the jury. 442 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: The theory was that Jeffrey Jones, Manfred's co defended from 443 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: the federal gun charge, ordered him to kill Jackson for 444 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: some slight and that Jackson grabbed Presley again with the 445 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: unsupported human shield narrative, and Gibbs alleged that when pressed further, 446 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: Manford responded, and this is a quote, fucked that bitch. 447 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: She all out there in the way, man, she got 448 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: to get handled. Eighty crippling crazy. They can get it, man, 449 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: it don't even matter. 450 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: Man. 451 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: Fuck her end quote, which is incredibly inflammatory, obviously, but 452 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: Manfred's lawyer had seven rebuttal witnesses, including Milton Gardner and 453 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: Brian Montinez. 454 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 3: Milton Gardner testifies that Gibbs is lying what they call 455 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 3: jumping on people's cases, that this is a practice of 456 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: his of finding people's cases and getting on them from 457 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 3: a time cut. And we have information that Gibbs was 458 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: also getting discovery from the prosecutor's office, presumably Martin Devlin, 459 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 3: to make his trial testimony more accurate, and that Gibbs 460 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 3: was recruiting other people. Brian Montinez testified that he was 461 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 3: approached by Jamal Gibbs that Gibbs was actively seeking cooperators 462 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 3: and Montonez knew Martin devil because Gibbs. 463 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: It's discovered later that even more witnesses had discredited Gibbs. 464 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: That didn't make it into the defense trial strategy, but 465 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: at least some damage was done. 466 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 3: The prosecutor harped on the credibility of Jamie Lee Channer 467 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 3: and Jamal Gibbs over and over again because the identification 468 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: in the case was so weak. 469 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: At the time. You believe like these guys ain't got 470 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: no credibility. The jury didn't believe Jackson. I had to 471 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: read backs on channering Gibbs. I trusted the process, thinking 472 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 2: that the process was fair, but it obviously is not. Basically, 473 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: they went with Channer and Gibbs. Then that's when they 474 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: came back with the guilty verdict. I didn't even go 475 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: in there. I was in a bullpen because something had 476 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 2: happened with the sheriff's officers. So my lawyer basically came 477 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 2: back and told me the news. 478 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: Manfred received two consecutive census sixty years for the murder 479 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: and eighteen years for the attempted murder a seventy eight 480 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: year sentence with parole eligibility after sixty six years, and 481 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: the sentence began while he was serving out his five 482 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: year federal sentence. 483 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: Most of my time I stayed in the county because 484 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: I had the court situation with this case. So the 485 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 2: time almost up anyway. You believe that the pill process 486 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: take like a year eighteen months, but I had time anyway. 487 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 3: So that's how I looked at it, like I'll be. 488 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: Back on a pill. So then after that I came 489 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 2: here from Camden County. I'm in New Jersey State Prison 490 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: now MAXIM Secure facility and federal prison. You get to 491 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: go out all day from six thirty am to nine pm. 492 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: You out the room, but here you lock down all day. 493 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: Basically you get yard every other day. You get to shower, 494 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 2: you get to use the Kia is the size of 495 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 2: a bathroom, smaller than the bathroom. For by success, I 496 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: work out, listen to music, talk to my family, watch TV. 497 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 2: For the first and most part followed the law. It's 498 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: hard man. A lot of gods lose their mind down here. 499 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: It's a rough spot. But you just got the only 500 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 2: focus is to get out of jail. When I came here, 501 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: my mind frame, like I said, you be thinking, you 502 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: trust the process because you innocent, So you get a 503 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: lawyer on direct to tell automatically God that don't know 504 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: no better leave it up to the lawyer and they 505 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: don't do no research. But I still was young, so 506 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: I came down here playing basketball, running around. So my 507 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: mind frame was let the lawyer do everything till then 508 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: as I got older and start figuring her out. Now 509 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: I helped myself help the lawyer. I cut my TV 510 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 2: off and went through all my trial transcripts and stuff. 511 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: That's when I started finding new evidence that wasn't presented 512 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: that trial that basically shows and proved that I've been framed. 513 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: That One major development was Richard Barge. Not only was 514 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: he another Jamal Gibbs victim, but he also was an 515 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: eyewitness who had come forward to Manfred's attorney pre trial. 516 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: When we were in the county back in two thousand 517 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: and nine. He was like, yo, man, tell you a 518 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: lawyer to contact me. Man, you ain't do that shit. 519 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 2: So I told my lawyer about it. So he went 520 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: to see Richard Barge. 521 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 3: And he tells them that he was out there that 522 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: night with a woman who Tia Hannah says is at 523 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 3: the scene. 524 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: And that girlfriend was Maisha Brown, the person Tia Hannah 525 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: was next to when the shots rang out. 526 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: He says that man for Younger isn't one of the shooters, 527 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: that he was actually standing in the general vicinity of 528 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: where Adrienne Jackson and Tierra Presley were standing when the 529 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 3: shots rang out, and he knows Manford Younger, and he 530 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 3: says that Younger is not one of the shooters. Unfortunately, 531 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 3: man for Younger's lawyer never calls Richard Barge. 532 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: My lawyer was like, well, I believe he was there, 533 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: but the jury might not believe him because both of 534 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: y'all got Jamal gar. 535 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: Gates, which seems like a colossal lapse in judgment considering 536 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: what Jamal Gibbs testified to in Barge's trial. 537 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 3: In Richard Barge's case, he actually testified that Richard Barge 538 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: admitted to a homicide via sign language, but. 539 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: When this ineffective council claim was presented at a post 540 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: conviction hearing, Manford's attorney was also called to the stand, 541 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: where he had trouble recalling his interaction with Richard Barge 542 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: or with Manfred about using barge. 543 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was old already, he was eighty years old, 544 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: so when he came to the PCR here he was 545 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 2: even way like off track. 546 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: Nevertheless, the judge decided to err on the side of 547 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: defense council's murky recollection of his final trial after a 548 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: thirty six year career. But this wasn't defense Council's only misstep. 549 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: As we mentioned, counsel never raised the problem with Jackson's 550 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: id illustrated by his alleged spotting of baby Jay on 551 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: September sixth, two thousand and seven, while Manford was incarcerated 552 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: in Gloucester County Jail. So Manfred's PCR motion was denied 553 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. But so much more has been discovered 554 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: since then. 555 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 3: Number One, that Jamie Lee Channer, who testified a trial, 556 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 3: he did not receive a benefit, that he was doing 557 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 3: this out of the kindness of his heart. He absolutely 558 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: received a benefit. He received a time cut, He received 559 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: support from the Camden County Prosecutor's office to get out 560 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 3: of jail. Jamal Gibbs testified that he was not receiving 561 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 3: anything for his testimony. Now, this guy played guilty to manslaughter. 562 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 3: He's a killer. Jamal Gibbs. He pleads guilty to manslaughter. 563 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 3: At sentencing, the judge is going to hear all the 564 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: cooperation right and consider that in so his trial testimony 565 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 3: that he's he already received his deal, that he expects 566 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 3: to get five years. That's what he says. I expected 567 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: a fighter. This guy gets five years for killing a person. 568 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 3: It turns out he got money and housing for his testimony. 569 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 1: So he got money, housing and the sweet deal of 570 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: just five years for murder. 571 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 3: Wow, and what was interesting this guy? As this His 572 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 3: child's mother comes forward and says that he admitted to 573 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 3: her that he was lying in cases to get out 574 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: of jail. I forget. What he's saying is why do 575 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 3: ten when you can lie on ten? 576 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: All this? 577 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 3: Why do ten when you can lie on a friend 578 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 3: or something like that. That was his thing, and it's 579 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 3: come out in the investigation. He did not like man 580 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 3: for younger. But his baby mother comes forward, provides a 581 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 3: sworn statement to an investigator, says that he admitted the 582 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 3: lying in cases to her and that he shot up 583 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 3: her house because he thought she was talking to the 584 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 3: Camden County prosecutors. The second he gets out of jail, 585 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 3: he shoots her house up. She goes to the Camden 586 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 3: County Prosecutor's office and they bury it. They refuse to 587 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 3: help her. 588 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: So we've established that Channer and Gibbs were not telling 589 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: the truth and were incentivized to lie. But now there 590 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: are witnesses to corroborate Richard Barge's statement and Man for gennicence. 591 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 3: There's a gentleman by the name of Antoine Stanley who 592 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 3: was also out there that night, who said that he 593 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 3: sees the shooters run up and that Man for Younger 594 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 3: couldn't have been one of them. He knew Man for 595 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 3: Younger couldn't be Man for Younger. Another witness, Darryl Debbie, 596 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 3: Troy Loan's nephew by the way, who actually says that 597 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 3: Troy Loan suggested to Adrian Jackson that baby Jay was 598 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 3: the killer. 599 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: And then, of course there's what has come out about 600 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: Martin Devlin in Philadelphia, and it appears that his conduct 601 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: only continued in Camden. The single photo identifications supported by 602 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: incentivized jailhouse snitches. 603 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 3: It's a pattern in that office that begins to really 604 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: take shape in the nineties. And guess who arrived in 605 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 3: the nineties Martin Devlin. I mean, they have a pattern 606 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 3: of saying that if you live in Camden, then you 607 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: know everybody in Camden. Therefore we can just show anyone 608 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 3: a single photo and let them identify anybody. Everybody knows 609 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 3: everybody in Camden. If you ask the Camden Police Department 610 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 3: and the Prosecutor's office, everybody knows everybody. That's just not true, 611 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: it's systemic, it's endemic. Man for Younger, from my investigation, 612 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 3: is an innocent man that's been sitting in prison for 613 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 3: fifteen years for crime he didn't commit. 614 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: A murder. 615 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: He didn't commit and this is something he's been fighting 616 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 3: since day one. 617 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: After Justin picked up Manfred's case at twenty twenty two, 618 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: he shared the case with the New Jersey Attorney General's 619 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 1: Conviction Review Unit, but they ran into trouble. 620 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 3: It's actually quite heartbreaking because that cru and New Jersey 621 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 3: they did not finish their investigation and essentially there's deadlines 622 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 3: with evidence and it's within a year of me discovering 623 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 3: the deal that Jamie Channer gets. I had to go 624 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 3: to the court with that. So I had to essentially 625 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 3: make a move for Manfred because I can't let a 626 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 3: Brady claim as strong as what we have with Jamie 627 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 3: Lee Channer sit that he received a deal when really 628 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 3: his testimony was he was a saint, you know what 629 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 3: I mean, like his mother Teresa or something. 630 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: Just a concerned citizen. 631 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 3: Out of the goodness of his heart. The guy's a liar. 632 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 3: I couldn't do that. And I've discovered other evidence that 633 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 3: with Gibbs. I mean, we knew that Gibbs had got 634 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 3: money in housing. 635 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 2: Jamal Gibbs got paid ten thousand dollars in a house, 636 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 2: and he lied to other cases and they didn't turn 637 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: that over. 638 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 3: And now we have confirmation of that he cooperated in more. 639 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 3: I think they mentioned four cases to defense counsel he 640 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 3: cooperated in. He cooperated in over ten. And that's astounding 641 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 3: in a place of smallest Camden. I mean, it's like, 642 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 3: so everybody who committed a murder that was sitting in 643 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 3: Camden County jail is telling you that they committed the 644 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 3: murder and. 645 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: Give He just recently recanted to the Attorney General Office 646 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 2: saying I didn't tell him nothing. He admitted that I 647 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 2: didn't confess to him. This is new, all this new. 648 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 3: The plan is the file a PCR based upon actual innocence, 649 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 3: significant Brady violations based upon what's called the fraud upon 650 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 3: the court, which is that witnesses lied at trial and 651 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 3: the prosecutor knew that they lied at trial by the 652 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 3: prosecutor's own file. 653 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,959 Speaker 1: Is there anything that our audience could do to help 654 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: besides sharing this episode obviously as at least the first step. 655 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I just want y'all to support you. Hear 656 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 2: what's going on. Everything I'm saying is facts. It's not freestyle, 657 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 2: and the facts is documented. Everything is on paper. 658 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: Number One, they need to reach out to Matthew Plackin, 659 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 3: who's the Attorney General about Camden County. Number two, they 660 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: should write the governor. But number three, they need to 661 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 3: really put pressure on the Camden County Prosecutor's office. 662 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 2: You could go to my Instagram and check everything out 663 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: free underscore Manfred, and you get to see what your 664 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,959 Speaker 2: own your own eyes. 665 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to have that length in the episode description, 666 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: and with that we're going to go to closing arguments, 667 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: where first of all, I thank both of you from 668 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: the bottom of my heart for joining us. And now 669 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: I'm just going to kick back in my chair with 670 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: my microphone off and my headphones on and just listen 671 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: to anything else you feel is left to be said. 672 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: Justin You're gonna go first, Manfred, You'll take us off 673 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: ato the sunset. 674 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 3: Manfred is not the only case like this, okay. I 675 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 3: represented a gentleman by the name of Tehran Hill who 676 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 3: was exonerated in twenty twenty one, and Tehran Hill almost 677 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 3: spot on with manfreed single photo, two jail house informants, 678 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 3: and through the course of the Attorney General's Conviction Review 679 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 3: Units investigation determined that the jailhouse informants were unreliable. One 680 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 3: of them were candidate at trial, and then the identification 681 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 3: of Tron Hill was unreliable because of the single photo. 682 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 3: Same thing as man for younger and I have other 683 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 3: cases in Camden County. This is systemic. What's going on here. 684 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 3: They took this man and they threw him in the 685 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 3: garbage camp. His mother is getting up in age. He 686 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 3: does not want to die in prison. It's heartbreaking, and 687 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 3: the Canden County Prosecutor's office thinks that people are just 688 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 3: going to go away. I'm not going away. My name 689 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 3: is Justin Bonus. Nice to meet you. 690 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 2: It ain't just me, it's the same pattern with the 691 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: same guy that pops up in everybody case. It's four 692 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 2: guys down here with me. Now. They got one single 693 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 2: photo jail house snitch. Richard Barrs one photo with the 694 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 2: same jail house smich. Jamal gives in about fifteen cases 695 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: murder cases just to save his own behind because he 696 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: had his own murder trial. He got five years for 697 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: his own case, murder at tempted murder, bank robbery, and 698 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 2: ten thousand doles in the house. Just the fabricate stories 699 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 2: on innocent people. It's the same pattern, same group of detectives. 700 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 2: Diane Wilson, James Sossano, Martin Devlin, James Bruno. It's the 701 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: same detectives, same pattern, same wrong doing in the city 702 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 2: of Camden, New Jersey. All they care about is conviction, 703 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: and the problem is being as though we come from 704 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 2: a poor, young black community, we don't have the resources, 705 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: or we don't have media attention, or they get away 706 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 2: with it. And then the judges and the prosecutors, they 707 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 2: took an oath to do the right thing, but they don't. 708 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 2: They dirty, they do people wrong. All they care about 709 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: is the conviction, and we don't have no body to 710 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,399 Speaker 2: help with We need all the help we can get, 711 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 2: any exposure, any help at a city A can. 712 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 713 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 714 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for 715 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our 716 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as 717 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber. 718 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time 719 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 720 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 721 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 722 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of 723 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 724 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported 725 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed 726 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: by the individuals featured in this show are their own 727 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.