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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb and.

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Speaker 3: I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

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Speaker 3: in our series on Jupiter's innermost moon, Io, the most

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Speaker 3: volcanic body in our Solar system, and, as I argued

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Speaker 3: in the last episode, one of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 3: dramatic places we know of beyond Earth. So if you

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Speaker 3: haven't heard part one, we would recommend going back to

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Speaker 3: listen to that one first. But for a brief recap

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Speaker 3: of what we talked about last time. We started off

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Speaker 3: talking about how I got interested in revisiting Io because

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Speaker 3: we did do a series of episodes on Jupiter's moons

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Speaker 3: at large several years back, but I wanted to come

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Speaker 3: back and do a closer pass on Io, in particular

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Speaker 3: because I got visually obsessed with some images produced by

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Speaker 3: the NASA Juno mission in the past year or so.

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Speaker 3: Guess it's actually little bit over a year because some

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Speaker 3: of the data that we were looking at was collected

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Speaker 3: in late twenty twenty three. But we talked about several

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Speaker 3: of these images in detail, about the strangely polychrome surface

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Speaker 3: of the Moon and its truly fascinating surface features, including

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Speaker 3: gigantic blade like mountains, vast sulfurous plains, hundreds of erupting volcanoes,

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Speaker 3: enormous hellish lava lakes rippling with lava waves, and lava

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Speaker 3: flows stretching hundreds of kilometers, all situated within a land

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Speaker 3: that is at once burning hot and freezing cold. So

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Speaker 3: it is, as Bart Simpson might say, a land of contrasts,

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Speaker 3: but also just a place of enormous physical and sort

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Speaker 3: of geological drama. We also talked a little bit about

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Speaker 3: the history of the exploration of Io, at least going

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Speaker 3: back to Carl Sagan's account of the discoveries made by

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Speaker 3: the Voyager Probe in nineteen seventy nine. Around then talked

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Speaker 3: about the extremely thin sulfur dioxide atmosphere of Io, which

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Speaker 3: is generated initially by venting from the Moon's volcanoes and

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Speaker 3: subsequently by the cyclical freezing and sublimation of sulfur dioxide

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Speaker 3: frost on the surface, freezing when the Moon passes into

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Speaker 3: Jupiter's shadow, then transitioning into gas again once back in

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Speaker 3: the sunlight. We also talked a good bit about the

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Speaker 3: Greek myth of the Moon's namesake, sort of the themes of

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Speaker 3: the Io story, especially in Ovid's telling and other versions

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Speaker 3: of the story, and the way the tale was said

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Speaker 3: in ancient times to interlock with Egyptian religious figures such

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Speaker 3: as the goddess Isis, Shepherd of the dead, and the

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Speaker 3: Sacred Mother of Pharaoh's And we are back today to

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Speaker 3: talk once again about Io.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So there's something we didn't really talk about at all

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Speaker 3: last time, and that was the use of IO as

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Speaker 3: a setting or plot device in science fiction, which, you know,

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Speaker 3: despite all of its, at least to me, really apparent

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Speaker 3: aesthetic virtues as a setting for a story, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: really seem to be a favorite place within our solar

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Speaker 3: system for sci fi writers. Or maybe I'm wrong about that.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's just not in a lot of stories I've read.

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Speaker 3: But I was having trouble thinking of many examples in

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Speaker 3: which it featured in stories I knew. I think it

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Speaker 3: showed up at some point briefly in the Expanse, and

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Speaker 3: I can't really think of many other examples.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, even in the Expanse. And I'm a little foggy

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Speaker 2: on where it shows up or doesn't show up if

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Speaker 2: it's in the novels by James S. A. Corey, or

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Speaker 2: if it's in the TV adaptation. I've only read the

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Speaker 2: first book in the series, Leviathan Wiggs, but I watched

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Speaker 2: the entire run of the show. But even then, I

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Speaker 2: think maybe it only partially factored in there. And I

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Speaker 2: think one of the possibilities here is that i Owe

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Speaker 2: is a moon that we know to be rather extreme

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Speaker 2: and hostile, for even our sci fi visions and fantasies

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Speaker 2: tend to give it a little safe distance.

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Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't seem like a top candidate for colonization.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, in well, I don't want to spoil too

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Speaker 4: much of the plot if people aren't familiar with the expanse,

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Speaker 4: but I do remember it pops up as the location

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Speaker 4: of a quite cursed laboratory.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they're working on a particular molecule. Yes, yes. Now.

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Speaker 2: One place you do see Io pop up as a

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Speaker 2: setting is the nineteen eighty one gritty sci fi western Outland.

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Speaker 2: This one starred Sean Connery and Peter Boyle, has some

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Speaker 2: other fairly big names sprinkled throughout the cast as well.

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Speaker 2: Directed by Peter Hyam's and I guess they chose Io

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Speaker 2: as a setting here because it would be such a

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Speaker 2: horrible place to work. It's the horrible working conditions and

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of like labor dispute in this particular

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Speaker 2: sci fi vision, you know, eighty one, that's not too

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Speaker 2: long after Ridley Scott's a and it's a film that

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Speaker 2: you could almost assume to be in the same universe,

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Speaker 2: you know. It's that sort of very gritty, essentially near

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Speaker 2: future vision of science fiction that is very much focused

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Speaker 2: on like the working man in space.

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Speaker 3: I have meant to see this for years and never

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Speaker 3: have it. It's intrigued me ever since my days of

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Speaker 3: like in high school flipping through you know, stacks of

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Speaker 3: DVDs at the used bookstore in town because it really

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Speaker 3: pops because it's Sean Connery holding a shotgun, dressed like

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Speaker 3: a cop, except he's in space. So strange vibes from

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Speaker 3: the get go. But I've read that if you didn't

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Speaker 3: already say this, I've read that this one is supposed

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Speaker 3: to be like a Western but in space.

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Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, And I saw it many many years ago,

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Speaker 2: but I'm a little foggy on the details. But it

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Speaker 2: is gritty, it is very much a Western in space.

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Speaker 2: A lot of it concerns explosive decompression, people's heads exploding

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Speaker 2: inside a set of suits, and yeah, terrible labor conditions. Now,

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Speaker 2: one thing about it that I wasn't familiar with until

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Speaker 2: very recently is there was a comic book adaptation of

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Speaker 2: it for heavy metal, I believe, by comics legend Jim Staranco,

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Speaker 2: and I include a few stills from it here for you, Joe.

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Speaker 2: I've seen people talk about this online almost in terms

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Speaker 2: of like a lost classic, Like it's apparently hard to

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Speaker 2: get your hands on, but it's got some very impressive

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Speaker 2: line work and just some really beautiful imagery. I mean,

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Speaker 2: like I say that the film itself has a very

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Speaker 2: gritty air to it, and that flavor is still present

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Speaker 2: in the comic book apparently, but it also has this

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Speaker 2: like extra like wilder vibe going on.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's one of those comic book art styles

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Speaker 3: where even apparently static objects seem to radiate with energy.

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Speaker 3: It's just I don't know what you call that style,

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Speaker 3: but it's where everything looks dynamic, like the style of

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Speaker 3: drawing is of a reality in which everything is about

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Speaker 3: to explode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's

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Speaker 2: read the comic book. There was also an Alan Deine

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Speaker 2: Foster novelization, so it has that in common with Alien

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Speaker 2: and Aliens and Alien three as well. But as far

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Speaker 2: as the treatment of Io in the motion picture and

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Speaker 2: in the comic book, basically it's a hell world where

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Speaker 2: they just decided to put a mining colony of some

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Speaker 2: sort and then prioritize profits over human safety. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: it's the perfect setting for that. Now I had to

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Speaker 2: hunt around a little bit more defined examples of Io

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Speaker 2: being used as a setting in other sci fi visions.

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Speaker 2: There's a nineteen ninety four mini series titled Escape from

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Speaker 2: Jupiter that concerns an escape from Io. Apparently it's an

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Speaker 2: Australian kids adventure and it's also has Steve Bisley in it,

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Speaker 2: who's in a number of I think it was in

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Speaker 2: at least one of the Mad Max films.

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Speaker 3: Oh, okay, I don't reckon him by name. Yeah, well

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Speaker 3: maybe what if I saw him? Is this a screenshot

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Speaker 3: you've got from it with the bright colors?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's one of the most nineteen nineties TV images

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Speaker 2: you could possibly look up online.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what what was the name of it? Wasn't there

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Speaker 3: like a Canadian kids sci fi show, sort of a

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Speaker 3: Star Trek for kids that was on Nickelodeon in the nineties.

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Speaker 3: It was like Space Cases or something.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's ringing a bell only.

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Speaker 3: The foggiest memory, but this is reminding me of that,

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Speaker 3: except I recall that had a darker look and this

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Speaker 3: is very pastel.

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Speaker 2: Now. There's also a twenty nineteen film titled Io. This

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Speaker 2: was apparently one that was put out on Netflix and

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen it, but it concerns refugees of a

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Speaker 2: destroyed Earth living on a space station near Io. It

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Speaker 2: stars Margaret Qualley of the Substance fame, Anthony Mackie, and

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Speaker 2: Danny Houston. Again, I haven't seen this one, but apparently

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Speaker 2: it's one. It was released on Netflix. I have to say,

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Speaker 2: in the one still I found from or a production

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Speaker 2: image promotionary image, doesn't look very pizza in the background.

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Speaker 3: No looks this is very gray. One of those shows

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Speaker 3: where all the colors washed out. To be fair, this

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Speaker 3: is just a still. I don't know the show, but

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Speaker 3: marketing department is not selling me on it with this

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Speaker 3: color here.

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Speaker 2: All right. Now, In terms of written sci fi, there

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Speaker 2: are at least there at least two examples to call out.

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Speaker 2: There's The Mad Moon by Stanley Jen g Weinbaum. This

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Speaker 2: is from nineteen thirty five, same individual who wrote a

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Speaker 2: Martian Odyssey, and it features two different alien species that

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Speaker 2: are supposed to be native to Io and there's a

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Speaker 2: human colony. I haven't read that one, but I did

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Speaker 2: read a story he wrote titled The Planet of Doubt,

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Speaker 2: which I did a Monster Fact episode back in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three, So I'm going to make sure that I

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Speaker 2: re air that one either this week or the following

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Speaker 2: week so you don't have to go look it up again.

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Speaker 2: But it's a pretty fun one. This guy had a real,

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Speaker 2: real creative mind for dreaming up alien creatures that you know,

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Speaker 2: often reflected some of the stranger biological examples we have

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Speaker 2: on our own planet, but with you know, a nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirties or slightly later sci fi spin.

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Speaker 3: But now nineteen thirties, so that's long before Voyager. I'm

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Speaker 3: wondering what did we actually know about Io at that

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Speaker 3: point to inform a vision of the biology that would

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Speaker 3: arise there.

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Speaker 2: Well, that may maybe not enough to know that two

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Speaker 2: indigenous species of any human colony were not maybe that likely.

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Speaker 2: We have some caveats on the whole life on IO thing. Well,

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Speaker 2: we'll come back to it though. Another one that came

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Speaker 2: out though is The Very Pulse of the Machine by

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Speaker 2: Michael Swanwick. This is from nineteen ninety eight and it

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Speaker 2: concerns a possibly sentient IO. It was adapted into an

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Speaker 2: episode of Love, Death and Robots on Netflix again, Netflix

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Speaker 2: loves Io with the main character voice by McKinsey Davis,

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Speaker 2: who's been in things like Halden Catch Fire and I

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Speaker 2: believe the more recent Blade Runner of film.

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Speaker 3: So when you say sentient io, you're talking about the

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Speaker 3: moon itself, the planetary body being a sentient organism or

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Speaker 3: sentient in some way.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I believe so, And I haven't read the story,

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Speaker 2: but I have seen this episode of Love, Death and Robots,

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Speaker 2: and I just the only thing I remember about it

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Speaker 2: is that it looked beautiful and it concerned bad things

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Speaker 2: happening in space on the Moon.

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Speaker 3: That sounds kind of like silarious, But having not seen it,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be overly broad about that.

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Speaker 2: But there's a fair amount of variety in Love, Death

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Speaker 2: and Robots. It's a really fun series, but there are

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Speaker 2: a number of episodes I think that you can describe

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Speaker 2: as bad things happen to people in space. So maybe

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Speaker 2: some of those bleed together in my memory.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to write some sci fi where only good

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Speaker 3: things happen to people in space.

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Speaker 2: There you go, That's what we need, you know, we

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Speaker 2: need a dash of the more of the Star Trek

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Speaker 2: optimism these days.

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Speaker 3: Like page three hundred, people just wake up, Oh splendid

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Speaker 3: day once again, smooth sailing.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I've got. Now, there may be some

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Speaker 2: other fantastic examples or just even marginally interesting examples of

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Speaker 2: IO in science fiction. So if you have any of those,

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Speaker 2: do write in. We'd love to share them with everyone

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Speaker 2: else on a future listener mail episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially if it's something that takes the real physical

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Speaker 3: characteristics of IO seriously as either a source of creating

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Speaker 3: alien biology or something people on the planet would have

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Speaker 3: on the moon would have to live with. Yeah, right

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Speaker 3: in contact at stuff to Blow your mind dot com.

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Speaker 2: Yeah again. One of the challenges though, is we've been

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Speaker 2: discussing it and will continue to discuss It's just it's

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Speaker 2: a very extreme place. There are there are I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to say there are more interesting Jovian moons, But

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Speaker 2: there are other Jovian moons that are better candidates for

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Speaker 2: things like some sort of life form being present there potentially,

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Speaker 2: or there being some possibility for human colonization or outpost efforts,

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Speaker 2: and so.

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Speaker 3: Forth, bridging to the next thing I wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Even though Io, and as you said, we'll get into

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Speaker 3: this a bit more later, might not be the best

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Speaker 3: place to search for alien life, might not be the

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Speaker 3: best place for humans to colonize, that doesn't mean it

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Speaker 3: is a place without mysteries of its own. There can

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Speaker 3: be mysteries of a quite inorganic nature that I still

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Speaker 3: think are pretty compelling, and I wanted to bring up

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Speaker 3: one of those, the mystery dunes of Io. So Rob

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Speaker 3: to start off with, I'm gonna have you look at

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Speaker 3: two images side by side in our outline here, and

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Speaker 3: folks at home, we will describe them for you so

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Speaker 3: you understand what we're looking at. On the right, we

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Speaker 3: have a satellite image. This is taken from above the

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Speaker 3: Namib Desert, which is on the west facing Atlantic coast

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Speaker 3: of Southern Africa, and that desert covers parts of the

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Speaker 3: coastal region of Angola, South Africa, and primarily Namibia. Now,

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Speaker 3: looking down at this desert from an orbital perspective, we

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Speaker 3: can see a beautiful, almost hypnotic pattern repeating across the

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Speaker 3: sandy expanse. Those are dunes, and sand dunes are characteristic

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Speaker 3: of many, but certainly not all, desert environments on Earth.

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Speaker 3: Some desert environments are very rocky, others are very cold,

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Speaker 3: places you might find ice fields, and then other desert

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Speaker 3: environments are the places you would find vast expanses of

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Speaker 3: sand dunes. Sand Dunes on Earth are formed primarily by

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Speaker 3: what are called Eolian forces, meaning they're created by the

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Speaker 3: action of wind, and actually the influence of wind comes

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Speaker 3: in at multiple stages because if you go way back

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Speaker 3: to the point of of the sand, wind along with water,

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Speaker 3: plays a role in the weathering and the transportation of rocks.

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Speaker 3: So you start off with rocks. You might have rocks

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Speaker 3: in the mountains or something, and they are broken up

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Speaker 3: by weathering, they get rained on, or they get the

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Speaker 3: wind blows on them, and various forces break those rocks

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Speaker 3: up into smaller pieces which can then be transported by

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Speaker 3: water and by wind downhill into places where they collect,

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Speaker 3: and over time those pieces of rock are continually broken

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Speaker 3: down into smaller and smaller pieces by further weathering and

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Speaker 3: erosion and transport, and the smallest sizes of mineral grains.

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Speaker 3: You might remember this if you listen to our series

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Speaker 3: on dust, are known as from larger to smaller are

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Speaker 3: known as sand, silt, and then clay. Sand Dunes are

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Speaker 3: created in areas where sand collects, So after the rocks

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Speaker 3: are weathered and eroded and then the sand is broken

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Speaker 3: down in transport, it'll sort of end up in some

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Speaker 3: kind of catching place, a depression, usually a lower lying area,

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Speaker 3: And when the wind blows it can move sand particles

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Speaker 3: along with it, And this is something yet again we

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Speaker 3: talked about in our series on dust. The term for

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Speaker 3: the process by which sand is moved around by the

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Speaker 3: wind is known as saltation. So you can get different

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Speaker 3: ways that the wind interacts with sediments and rock pieces

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Speaker 3: of different sizes. So you know, a larger rock, the

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Speaker 3: wind blows against it, it's not going anywhere. Maybe a

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Speaker 3: pebble the wind blows against it, it might kind of

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Speaker 3: move it a little bit, or a pebble might get

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Speaker 3: blown off another a pile of other pebbles and kind

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Speaker 3: of tumble a little bit, but it doesn't really go

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Speaker 3: much of anywhere unless you get really high winds. And

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Speaker 3: then meanwhile, if you go all the way down to

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Speaker 3: the sort of the dust size of grains of sediment,

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Speaker 3: the wind can pick it up and carry it up

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Speaker 3: into the atmosphere and then the dust just you know,

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Speaker 3: it is borne a lot for a long long time.

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Speaker 3: It can travel anywhere. It can travel across the land,

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Speaker 3: across the ocean, end up in different places. But sand

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Speaker 3: is in this middle zone where it's subject primarily to

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Speaker 3: the forces known as saltation. When wind blows on sand,

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Speaker 3: the sand will be blown along the surface of the ground,

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Speaker 3: or will follow the surface of whatever sort of the

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Speaker 3: base layer of the earth is, and it will will

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Speaker 3: be kicked up, and it'll kind of jump and bounce

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Speaker 3: and then come back down and hit the sand, and

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Speaker 3: that will cause other pieces of sand to kind of

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Speaker 3: get knocked out of place when the initial piece of

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Speaker 3: sand lands, So it creates this kind of bouncing, jumping,

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Speaker 3: hopping motion as sand is blown along by the wind,

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Speaker 3: As sand gets blown along by the wind, as saltation

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Speaker 3: is going on. At some point the flow of wind

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Speaker 3: driven sand can become obstructed. Maybe it gets caught on

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Speaker 3: an obstacle like there's a bush, or maybe it falls

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Speaker 3: behind an obstacle like a bush or piece of vegetation,

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Speaker 3: and then the wind cannot exert as much of a

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Speaker 3: force on it anymore, so it just kind of like

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Speaker 3: sits there and grains can pile up, or maybe it

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Speaker 3: gets blown against the side of a slightly elevated pile

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Speaker 3: of other grains of sand and it gets stuck there

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Speaker 3: instead of moving on and from here, these places where

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Speaker 3: sand starts to collect can be a self reinforcing process,

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Speaker 3: where a mound of sand just gets bigger and bigger

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Speaker 3: as the wind forces blowing sand particles against it cause

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Speaker 3: the particles to collect around this mound in one way

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Speaker 3: or another. So a common format of sand dune that

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Speaker 3: you will get in places, especially where the dominant winds

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Speaker 3: are blowing primarily in one direction, is that the side

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Speaker 3: of the sand dune facing the wind will be a smoother, slower,

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Speaker 3: more gradual slope, and then the side of the sand

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Speaker 3: dune facing away from the dominant winds will be a

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Speaker 3: much steeper, sharper slope. And what's usually happening is the

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Speaker 3: wind is blowing sand along and it's eroding sand from

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Speaker 3: the middle of the rising slope on the windward side,

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Speaker 3: and then trying to deposit it right at the crest,

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Speaker 3: right at the peak of the dune. And in this way,

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Speaker 3: over years and years, more and more sand accumulates. But

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Speaker 3: sand dunes don't just grow higher and higher forever. Eventually

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Speaker 3: a sand dune will collapse, not totally disappearing, but losing height.

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Speaker 3: And this happens when one side of the dune becomes

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Speaker 3: too steep, exceeding what is called the angle of repose. Now,

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Speaker 3: this is a kind of cool physics principle. I think

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Speaker 3: we may have talked about this on the show before,

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Speaker 3: but the angle of repose is the steepest angle that

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Speaker 3: a pile of sediment or whatever other granular substance can

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Speaker 3: attain before it collapses under its own weight. In fact,

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Speaker 3: I wonder if we talked about the angle of repose

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Speaker 3: in when we were talking about the ant lion, because

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Speaker 3: I believe that is a factor in the construction of

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Speaker 3: their conical traps. That you know, they make them so

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Speaker 3: just so that they're sort of right on the edge,

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Speaker 3: and it's easy for the sides to start collapsing and

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Speaker 3: pull an ant down if they fall in.

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Speaker 2: That may be a place where it's come up before. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, the angle of repose is not a universal constant.

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Speaker 3: It instead depends on a number of variables about the

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Speaker 3: material you're piling up. So you know, different types of sand,

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Speaker 3: different grain sizes of sand, like the amount of friction

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Speaker 3: between the particles, how big the particles are on average,

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Speaker 3: stuff like that will all affect what the angle of

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Speaker 3: repose is for a pile of this stuff. But I

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Speaker 3: was reading that. I was reading on an information page

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Speaker 3: by the USGS. This was a page about Sand Dune's

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Speaker 3: National Park in Colorado. The angle of repose for sand

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Speaker 3: is usually between thirty and thirty four degrees, so once

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Speaker 3: it gets steeper than that, the dune will collapse. And this,

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Speaker 3: in part explains why when you're looking at pictures of

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Speaker 3: sand dunes in the desert, you will, as I said,

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Speaker 3: often see them with this one smooth side, kind of

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Speaker 3: a gentler slope on one side ascending at a shallower angle,

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Speaker 3: and then the other side will fall off at a

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Speaker 3: steeper angle with an almost kind of sheared off texture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, looking like someone is sliced into it to get

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Speaker 2: a little bit of the dessert. That's sort of a look.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So generally the smoother side is facing the

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Speaker 3: dominant winds, where the sediment continues to be eroded from

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Speaker 3: the slope going up and then tries, and then the

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Speaker 3: wind deposits more and more of it at the crest,

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Speaker 3: and then it gets steeper and steeper on the downwind

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Speaker 3: side until it collapses. And of course there's also going

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Speaker 3: to be some sand grains falling over the top of

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Speaker 3: the dune and then ending up down sort of in

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Speaker 3: the shelter from the wind on the leeward side. And

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Speaker 3: sand dunes are really interesting, you know, you can if

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Speaker 3: you watch them over long periods of time, they can

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Speaker 3: start to seem less like the geological formations we're used to.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we know that mountains move over time, but

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Speaker 3: you know, it's really hard to imagine how mountains move.

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Speaker 3: You really have to just sort of think outside of

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Speaker 3: the human timescale. Dunes are kind of somewhere in between

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Speaker 3: mountains and the waves in the ocean. Over periods of

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Speaker 3: you know, months or years, dunes will will creep across

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Speaker 3: the surface of the Earth. So that's dunes on Earth. However,

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Speaker 3: Rob I want to come back and have you look

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Speaker 3: at the photos we started with, So the one we

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Speaker 3: were looking at first is sand dunes on Earth. But

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Speaker 3: then the photo I've got for you here on the

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Speaker 3: left is a photo of Io. So what we see

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Speaker 3: on the lower left hand side of the image is

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Speaker 3: a kind of dark spreading expanse that has a sort

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Speaker 3: of creepy organic outline, kind of like if you zoom

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Speaker 3: way out, like a flood pouring through topography. And researchers

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Speaker 3: think that this area in the photo of Io is

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Speaker 3: probably one of those relatively fresh lava flows that we

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Speaker 3: talked about last time. You know, a lot of the

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Speaker 3: surface of Io is affected by lava flows, and that

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Speaker 3: they can be huge, enormous, hundreds of kilometers of just

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Speaker 3: lava flows. And this helps contribute, of course to what

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Speaker 3: Carl Sagan said about the moon right. He said that

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Speaker 3: Io is a place of relatively rapid change by planetary standards.

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Speaker 3: Major changes to the surface of Io can occur on

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Speaker 3: a timescale of months. But if you look at the

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Speaker 3: other side of this image from Galileo, not the dark side,

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Speaker 3: but the lighter colored side, we see not lava flows,

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Speaker 3: but these pale reflective ripples thousands of them arrayed in

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Speaker 3: a repeating pattern, kind of like what you would see

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Speaker 3: in like when you can see a standing wave of

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00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 3: emerging in a fluid, or you know, if you like

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Speaker 3: a rattle, you like rattle a speaker, and then on

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Speaker 3: top of it there's some sand. You get these emerging things.

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Speaker 3: One thing I wanted to compare it to was like

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Speaker 3: a silver reptile skin. It has almost kind of a

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Speaker 3: pebbly lizard texture.

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Speaker 2: It does.

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Speaker 3: But actually when you see him side by side here

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Speaker 3: this looks quite a lot like satellite photos of desert

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Speaker 3: dunes on Earth. But could that really be what they are?

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Speaker 3: Because remember what we talked about in the previous episode.

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Speaker 3: Io only has the most tenuous, ghost like suggestion of

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Speaker 3: an atmosphere. It's composed primarily of sulfur dioxide with a

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Speaker 3: few other trace constituents. And for a comparison of how

435
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: thin Io's atmosphere is, I was looking for, you know,

436
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 3: what's the difference between Earth's atmosphere and iOS And I

437
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: actually found a twenty twenty press release from the National

438
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 3: Science Foundation that addressed this. They crunch the numbers and

439
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: they say that i Io's atmosphere is roughly a billion

440
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: times thinner than Earth's It is barely an atmosphere at all,

441
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 3: thicker than the even more tenuous exosphere of Earth's moon,

442
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 3: which I was looking that up. Also, apparently Earth's moon

443
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: has such a thin layer of gas that there are

444
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: only about one hundred molecules of gas per cubic centimeter

445
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 3: near its surface. So iOS is thicker than that, but

446
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 3: still not thick enough to cause irrosive wind patterns like

447
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 3: we have on Earth. So if there's not enough of

448
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 3: an atmosphere to sustain significant winds on Io, and if

449
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: dunes are generally created by Eolien forces by wind, what's

450
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: making the dunes or are they actually dunes at all?

451
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 3: So just a couple of years ago, there was a

452
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: paper that actually addressed this question. It was published in

453
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 3: Nature Communications by MacDonald at All and the title is

454
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: this will answer some of the questions Eolian sediment transport

455
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: on IO from lava frost interactions and for context. I

456
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 3: was also reading about this in a Rutgers University press

457
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: release by Kiddy Macpheerson from April twenty twenty two that

458
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: had some quotes from the authors. So, first of all,

459
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 3: to answer the question, are these dunes previous researchers had

460
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 3: noted that the features which are generally turned termed ridges

461
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 3: in the astronomy context or the planetary science context. These

462
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: features that they had been noticed for their similarity to

463
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: eli and sand dunes on planets like Earth and Mars.

464
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: Mars has dunes as well, But these previous investigations usually argued, no,

465
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: these are probably not dunes formed by wind. For the

466
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: reasons that we've already raised. The atmosphere of Io is

467
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: not thick enough to really have wind. It's not thick

468
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 3: enough to lift sediment and move it around. And again,

469
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: this moving around of sediment by s particles by wind

470
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: would be saltation. So remember that when it comes up

471
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: in these quotes. The authors of the paperwright quote choosing

472
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 3: zero point one nanobars as a representative atmospheric pressure. One

473
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 3: study estimated a twenty kilometer per second threshold friction speed

474
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: to move grains on Io, two orders of magnitude greater

475
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: than Io's roughly three hundred meters per second wins, concluding

476
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 3: that an Eolian origin for these features was impossible. Formation

477
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 3: by tidal forces was favored. Now, tidal forces means the

478
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 3: interaction of different gravitational forces on matter exerting a pulling

479
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: or a stretching force. So this alternate explanation previously favored

480
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: because Io can't sustain wins, is that there's something about

481
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: the gravity that is causing these ridge features to emerge. However,

482
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: despite agreeing that saltation is not possible under the ambient

483
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 3: atmospheric conditions of Io, the authors note that there really

484
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 3: are a number of similarities between the features seen in

485
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 3: these images and Eolian dunes. They mentioned quote the ridges,

486
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 3: regular spacing, slightly meandering forms, and possession of crestline defects.

487
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 3: So these are all features that are very similar, so

488
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 3: similar to wind formed dunes on Earth and Mars that

489
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 3: it would be kind of strange if that's not what

490
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: they were. So is there any way that these features

491
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 3: could have been formed by something like wind, even though

492
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: you know, even given the limitations we know of Io's atmosphere. Well,

493
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 3: the authors of the paper note that the thickness of

494
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: Io's atmosphere is not consistent across its surface, so the

495
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 3: density of surface gas could actually be much higher at

496
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: certain times and in certain areas, specifically in the vicinity

497
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: of volcanic vents, which are rapidly viewing so two gas

498
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: as they erupt. The authors ask, what if there is

499
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: a sort of you could say, quote unquote wind that

500
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 3: is present locally, not globally, on the surface of Io,

501
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: consisting of some kind of rush of gases from subsurface

502
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: interactions from volcanism or from downstream effects of volcanic eruptions,

503
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: And what if this is responsible for crafting the dunes?

504
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: And this is in fact what they find support for

505
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: in their paper and the author's write quote here we

506
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: demonstrate that interactions between lava from volcanic eruptions and the

507
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: sulfur dioxide frost blanketing Io's surface can produce localized sublimation

508
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: vapor flows with sufficient gas densities to enable saltation. So

509
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: I thought that was really interesting. So what would these

510
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: interactions be. To be clear, they're not talking about their

511
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: quote unquote wind being the gases that burst directly from

512
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 3: volcanic eruptions. You know, it's not like the gas comes

513
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: out of the volcano and that is the wind. They're

514
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: talking instead about a secondary mechanism that they find probable,

515
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: which is that you have hot lava flowing just underneath

516
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: the surface of the frost layer here, and it's creating

517
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: this interaction with the sulfur dioxide frost on the surface,

518
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: causing the sulfur dioxide to sublimate. Essentially, it heats it

519
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 3: up and it causes an outgasing process. So suddenly a

520
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: bunch of this SO two turns into gas and then

521
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: they find that that would be capable of driving saltation.

522
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: So lead author George MacDonald, quoted in the press release, says,

523
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 3: our studies point to the possibility of Io as a

524
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: new dune world. We have proposed and quantitatively tested a

525
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: mechanism by which sand grains can move and in turn

526
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: dunes could be forming there. And I really they actually

527
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: come through in the in the press release there the

528
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: authors are like referencing the book Dune and talking about

529
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: how it could be like a racket. So I like

530
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: the dedication to like we have we have determined how

531
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: it can be a dune world.

532
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: We have captured a sand worm and will soon begin

533
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: the spice spice production on another planet.

534
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 3: Yes, now, if this is in fact the mechanism, it

535
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: would explain a number of things. It would explain the

536
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: similarity to dunes created by wind on the other planets

537
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: of course, it would also explain, sort of going against

538
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: the tidal forces argument, why you see dunes in different orientations,

539
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: because the authors say, you know, if it was tidal forces,

540
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 3: it seems like you'd be more likely to see all

541
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: the dunes kind of aligned along with certain gravitational axes,

542
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: but instead you see dunes facing different directions. But another

543
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: thing is that if this really is the mechanism, you

544
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: might expect to see more dunes forming, like around the

545
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 3: edges offs like we see in this image we started with,

546
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 3: where you've got this black glassy area on one part

547
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: of the image. You know, that's where the lava is flowing,

548
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: and then at the edge of that it's probably interacting

549
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: with these these planes of so two frost, and that

550
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: could be creating the winds that blow that blow over

551
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: the surface and help form the dunes. Interesting, So I

552
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 3: feel like sci fi writers, we're just feeding you, We're

553
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: just you know, like you can you can do a

554
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: dune type thing on io that'll work here.

555
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean it's a again, this is

556
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: it's an exciting world and perhaps a little too exciting,

557
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: and I think that's what maybe scares away even some

558
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: sci fi visions.

559
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, once again. I mean, I agree, that's fair. Like

560
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: I understand, especially if you're trying to write hard or

561
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 3: semi hard sci fi, like dealing with the real uh

562
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 3: what we actually know and how that would inform the

563
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: story creates problems. But I think this is really enticing

564
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: because Okay, so we've seen Arakis, We've seen Dune as

565
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: a hot world, but imagine a freezing cold Dune world

566
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 3: but also super hot in certain areas.

567
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: I guess one of the things to keep in mind,

568
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: kind of going back to our full episodes on the

569
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: Jovian moons, is like they're all kind of terrible, you know,

570
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: compared to what we have here on Earth. I mean

571
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: the same can be said for pretty much everywhere else

572
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: in our Solar system and the known universe, you know,

573
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 2: like this this is the world we can live on,

574
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: this is the world we have to make work, and

575
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: the rest of them. It's kind of like looking at

576
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: the I don't know Batman's rogue gallery and saying, well,

577
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: which one is the like the least awful, And you

578
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 2: might be like, well, mister Freeze has some you know,

579
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: some virtues to him, yes, but he's still a murderous madman. Killer.

580
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: That's a very good comparison. Weirdly, and I've sort of

581
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 3: had this on my mind lately. I mean, this is

582
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: something I think of every now and then, ever since

583
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 3: I read Kim Stanley Robinson's Aurora, which is a book

584
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 3: very much about It's a space exploration book that I

585
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: don't want to spoil too much for people who haven't

586
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: read it, but it ends up being very much about

587
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: the virtues of Earth.

588
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: Earth.

589
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, the preciousness of the planet we

590
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 3: already have. Uh, and so that's a wonderful theme. It's

591
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: you know, some people I love space, space exploration and

592
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: space colonization as a setting for a science fiction story.

593
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I love that as much as anybody. But

594
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: but also sometimes in people who are real advocates of

595
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: space exploration, you almost get a sense of that they're

596
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: just kind of done with Earth. It's like, yeah, okay,

597
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: we've used that up, we can kick that out. We

598
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: just got to move on to the next thing. I

599
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: don't I don't think that's a good basket to put

600
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: your chickens in.

601
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: No. No, I mean, you know this has come up

602
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: in various conversations in the show before, but you know,

603
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: you pretty much any model for near to medium term

604
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: colonization efforts, you know elsewhere in the Solar System, those

605
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: are all going to be completely dependent upon Earth. You know,

606
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: There's there's no deshackling from that planet. You know, even

607
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: in your you know, sci fi visions. You know, it's

608
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: like you have to really look at far future scenarios

609
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: where it would even become possibly feasible for there to

610
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: be truly independent colonies, independent systems that are not depending

611
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,959
Speaker 2: on this place where we evolve to thrive. Yeah.

612
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. And to be clear, once again,

613
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: I'm not against space exploration or even necessarily space colonization.

614
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 3: See the beauty and the excitement in those kind of

615
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: grand projects. But I don't know, I find it revolting

616
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: when that kind of grand ambition brings along with it

617
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: contempt for the planet that we need right now and

618
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 3: will need for the foreseeable future. You gotta love Earth now.

619
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: This is a commentary that has existed in the zeitgeist

620
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: for a while. I always come back to a particular

621
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four talk given by Terrence McKenna in which

622
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: he refers to the Earth as quote, an incredible pearl,

623
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: flung out in a universe of ashes and darkness. And

624
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 2: and he's making a larger point in referencing this about

625
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: a decision to be made regarding human nature and how

626
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: we view ourselves and our place in the universe. But

627
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: I keep coming back to that idea. Our earth is

628
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: this incredible pearl, and because it is the place where

629
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: there is life, it is the place where we are

630
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: meant to be. And you know, we may expand out

631
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: and explore these other places, we may expand out and

632
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: make new homes on these other places, but this, this

633
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: is the place from which we arose. This is our

634
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: true home. This is the only place we can count

635
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: on to sustain us as long as we cherish it.

636
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 3: Everywhere else is a gamble, And you don't bet the

637
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: home world on a gamble, you know, that's right. Nothing

638
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: else is a sure thing.

639
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: And you certainly don't bet on Io. Yeah no, because

640
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody's realistically betting on Io. They may,

641
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 2: they may be placing moderate bets on other destinations in

642
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: our solar system, but Io is the odds are great.

643
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 2: You're a gambler, but it's not likely going to be

644
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: a win.

645
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 3: However, greatly worth studying, if not the number one candidate

646
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 3: for a little for a base out there. One thing

647
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: I did observe about that quote before we move on, though,

648
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: I actually think the pearl is a wonderful metaphor for Earth,

649
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: not just because it's a ball, you know, like Earth

650
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 3: is roughly spherical and pearl is usually somewhat spherical, Not

651
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 3: just because it is precious. I mean, pearl, of course

652
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: is a type of jewel, so it's precious just like

653
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: the Earth is. But it is also essentially a mineral

654
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 3: product at its material base, which most of the Earth is,

655
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 3: but also a biofact. You know, a pearl is created

656
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: by life, and the way the Earth is now it

657
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 3: was also in a way created by life. Life is

658
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: defined what the planet is down to its very physical substance.

659
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

660
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: Oh now, Rob, I remembered something we said we were

661
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 3: going to come back to, was the question of the

662
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: possibility of io sustaining life. We've already said that it's

663
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 3: probably not, you know, just from from what we already know.

664
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: Probably not the first candidate to look for life elsewhere

665
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: in our solar system. But you know, with with most

666
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: planetary bodies out there, people have kind of done the

667
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: work to say, like what sort of thing would be

668
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: most plausible here? And I know you'd been reading a

669
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 3: bit about io and life, so once you turn up.

670
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, again, it is an extreme environment and it's

671
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: by no means the best option for life in amid

672
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: the Jovian Moons. The best options I think are arguably

673
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: Europa and Ganymede. But you know, we know, based on

674
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: our own model of life here on Earth, that life

675
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: can thrive in extreme environments. And you know, over the

676
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 2: past several decades, I think that's become you know, more

677
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: and more crystallized in our understanding that you know, life

678
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: here on Earth is pretty rugged and certain models of

679
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: it can survive in very hostile conditions. So it's not

680
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 2: completely out of the question that something could evolve, either

681
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: evolve within those hostile conditions on another world, or survive

682
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: in such conditions, you know, after the loss of a

683
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: previous habitat. And so I was looking around in one

684
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: individual in particular that has speculated a fair amount concerning

685
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: IO is German astrobiologist Dirk Schultz Makouch speculated in twenty

686
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 2: twenty three on Big Think about the possibility. The title

687
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: of the Big Think article that he crafted is there

688
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: could be life on hot volcanic Io. Jupiter's quote pizza met.

689
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: We talked about the pizza surface in the last episode.

690
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 3: It looks like it's got I don't know, what would

691
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: you say? The topping selection is definitely pepperoni and olives.

692
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and cheese of course, the fair amount of cheese,

693
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: mozzarella and or parmesan on top. And of course Schultz

694
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: macouch has has also a third and co authored a

695
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: number of peer reviewed articles that the Big Think article

696
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: is more is more general audience. But but he goes through,

697
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: you know, all the major points that he hits in

698
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: some of these other articles, and he drives home that

699
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: the Juno mission revealed much more about Io than we

700
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 2: previously knew, and that based on these more recent discoveries,

701
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: you know, it's reasonable to hypothesize that while Io is

702
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: now this volcanic world of extreme cold and extreme hot temperatures,

703
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: it may have once had as much liquid water as

704
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: Europa and Ganny meat and during those early days, the

705
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: combination combination of liquid water and geothermal heat again you know,

706
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: highly volcanic world could have led to the development of life. However,

707
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 2: of course, this wouldn't be the case today. Io would

708
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: have gone on to lose most of the water due

709
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 2: to Jupiter's radiation and tidal forces, and this is pretty

710
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: much left the surface of Io quite uninhabitable. But what

711
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: about the underground, Well, Schulzmakouch stresses that it might still

712
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 2: prove too violent beneath Io's surface for life, Like it's

713
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: still it's still you know, not the best bat, but

714
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 2: you know. He says that there's a chance it could

715
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: survive there due to the possibibility of remaining abundant water

716
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: carbon and reduce sulfur compounds. So a dynamic, though possibly

717
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: too dynamic environment for life. Maybe not on the surface

718
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: of Io, but perhaps maybe underneath the surface of the planet,

719
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: beneath the planet of the pizza if you will.

720
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where the remnants of their civilization worship a

721
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:51,919
Speaker 3: giant pizza oven.

722
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So where would we look for them, if

723
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: we could at all look look for them on this world,

724
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: We suggests lava tubes, which should be common on such

725
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 2: a volcanically active world. These would of course be beneath

726
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: the surface of Io, where they would possibly serve as

727
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 2: a safe haven for life, protected to some degree from

728
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: radiation and subject to warm at least semi constant temperatures.

729
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: And he stresses that lava tubes here on Earth, you know,

730
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: they provide a great example because they are often home

731
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 2: to extremophile and microbial life, regardless of the region in

732
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: which you find them. You know, this is true of

733
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: lava tubes in the desert as well as in Iceland,

734
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: in places like that. And on top of that, lava

735
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 2: tubes on Mars, according to schulsmaccooch the most plausible place

736
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: to find life on the Red planet. So lava tubes

737
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 2: in general great place to look for. It seems like

738
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: lava tubes should be present beneath the surface of Io

739
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 2: as well. Now, he also discusses that if there's not

740
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: enough water for life on Io, it's also feasible that

741
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: hydrogen sulfide might and in for water, though he stresses

742
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 2: that quote suggesting an alternative alternative solvent for life is

743
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 2: always very very speculative. Yeah, So I do want to

744
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: make sure I'm doing justice to what he has written

745
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: and said about this, because he's not saying there's definitely

746
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: life on ioh. He's saying, you know, we have to

747
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 2: keep an open mind about these things and discuss how

748
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 2: it could exist there based on what we know of

749
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 2: life here on Earth.

750
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 3: Right. Well, as you said that this is a common

751
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: experiment a lot of you know, people who are interested

752
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: in astrobiology go through. Is not to say there is

753
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: definitely life on Titan or whatever it is, but to say, Okay,

754
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 3: given the conditions we know about here, what could you

755
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 3: imagine working there? If we were to discover life in

756
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 3: this kind of place, where would we expect to find it,

757
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 3: What form would we expect it to take?

758
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it sounds like the possibility here would be

759
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: some sort of you know, microbial extremeophile life form that

760
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: again is living in certain lava tubes where they're protected

761
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 2: from the radiation, where there's something like consistent warmth going

762
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: on and it's not subject to like massive freezes and

763
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: then massive you know, boiling temperatures. So but again it

764
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: would be down in these lava tubes. And one of

765
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 2: the things that he points out is that, yeah, these

766
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: we just have to speculate like this, This would be

767
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: very hard to just to explore one hundred percent for

768
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: a number of reasons. It's very difficult to figure out

769
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: how you would like land a craft or a rover

770
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: on IO and then dig down underneath the surface. It's

771
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: a very hostile world. However, there's still plenty of room

772
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 2: to explore it from an orbital standpoint, and we can

773
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: continue to learn more about the surface of Io and

774
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: the composition of IO, and in doing so we might

775
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: be able to make even better guesses about what might

776
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: be beneath the surface. All right, Well, on that note,

777
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 2: we're going to close out this episode, but we'll come

778
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: back with one more episode on Io this Thursday. In

779
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: the meantime, definitely feel free to write into us. We'd

780
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: love to hear from you your thoughts about anything we

781
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: discussed here. Examples of IO from science fiction. All of

782
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: that is fair Game will remind you the stuff to

783
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 2: blow your mind. Is primarily a science and culture podcast,

784
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes

785
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set aside most serious

786
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird

787
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: House Cinema. Maybe we'll get to Outland someday. It's been

788
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: on kind of like the shortlist for a little bit,

789
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: but maybe maybe someday soon If you would like us

790
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: to cover Outland on Weird House Cinema, write in and encourage.

791
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: Us, Sir, Sean just looks so serious.

792
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's very serious in this one. I think

793
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: maybe that's why I've held off on this one, like

794
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: this is a gritty film, or at least that's my

795
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 2: memory of it. Very gritty, not a lot of fun

796
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: to be had, you know, it's it's a dirty future.

797
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 3: Oh, I've got a note. Does he just use his

798
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: normal accent or does he pretend to have a different accent?

799
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 2: Well, I don't remember, but if added that, I would say,

800
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 2: just normal accent. Okay, that's normally how it shakes out.

801
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 3: I would want to hear Sean Connery doing cowboy voice. Well,

802
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 3: howdy partner, all right, huge, Thanks as always to our

803
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 3: excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you would like to

804
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 3: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode

805
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

806
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 3: or just to say hi, you can email us at

807
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 3: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

808
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

809
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

810
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows

811
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: The same priest with rapt