WEBVTT - "Two Questions, Eight People" 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.040 Back in January, a few weeks after Hannah Heart's remains 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:07.240 were identified, our field reporter Lawrence Smiley reconnected with Sheriff 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:12.080 Tom Allman about the upcoming coroner's inquest. Lauren, good morning, 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:16.240 Tom Allman from Medin. You'll remember Sheriff Allman. He's been 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.480 on the Heart case since the crash and hasn't wavered 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.920 on his conviction that it was an intentional act. He 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:23.799 was the one who told us that the proceedings of 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.760 the two day hearing would give evidence that will shock 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:32.559 the consciousness of people who are following his case. Sheriff 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:36.360 Allman is jovial and good natured. He's allowed talker and 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.960 sometimes wears a Sheriff's star pinned to the lapel of 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:43.120 his navy suit. He's been known to give exploding fist bumps. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.479 One gets the sense that not only does Tom Allman 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.680 love his job, he loves the nature of the work, 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.800 the responsibility, the respect, the attention to detail, and the intrigue. 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.080 If there was ever someone whose job it is to 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.200 drum up interest in something as morose sounding as a 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.880 coroner's inquest, it's him. When I left the meeting hearing, 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.640 some of it I just walked out of the room 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.360 and said, oh my god. He thought live streaming the 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.000 event would be helpful for everyone at home with questions. 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.959 Remember what the whole purpose of the quarters in question was. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:25.479 All purpose is to answer two questions about eight people, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:31.960 the manner and cause of death. That's it. The first 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.200 new development in some time came last month, when a 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:40.440 California Superior Court judge officially pronounced Davante dead. Even though 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.720 his body hasn't been found. His whereabouts have remained a 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.760 huge point of contention for many people who have been 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.560 following the case closely. But the court filing from the 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.440 Sheriff's department reads, it is more probable than not that 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.160 Davante Hart is deceased and died along with his siblings 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.400 and parents in the vehicle crash. Almond says he is 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:08.720 closing DeVante's case with an asterisk. I'm certainly aware of 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.799 a contingent of citizens who have a belief that DeVante 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.200 was not in the car. To those and to all, 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:21.359 the Sheriff's Office would certainly welcome any information that would 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:27.880 prove our belief incorrect. It is our opinion and the 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.080 jury's opinion, that he lived with his family, and unfortunately 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:37.000 he perished with his family, and the inquest made it 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.720 clear that Jenn and Sarah made a deliberate decision to 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.800 drive off that cliff. They planned it, they worked together. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.240 It was not a spur of the moment act. But 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.320 as Almond points out, for those of us seeking a 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:54.880 tidy explanation as to why that will never come. There's 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.480 one question that nobody will ever answer, and that's why 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.200 we can tell you what we can tell you almost 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:07.320 when we can tell you certainly where we can tell 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:14.880 you who. But as a as an adult whose brother 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:21.359 committed suicide many years ago, I've learned that sometimes the 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:26.600 question why I can never be answered, and we can 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.799 give people the reason that they can find their own 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.640 answer and say, well, I believe it happened because of 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.560 an infilling players, but there's not going to be any 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.640 black and white answer to why. From Glamour and I 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:46.400 Heart Radio, this is Broken Hearts one year later, I'm 0:03:46.440 --> 0:04:01.440 Justine Harmon and I'm Liz Egan. Last week, Lauren returned 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.760 to Mendocino County to attend the coroner's inquest. Over the 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.680 course of two days, witnesses ranging from first responders to 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.080 detectives sat at a wooden desk and shared the brutal 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.080 facts of the investigation. Behind them was a whiteboard on 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.640 which assistants taped diagrams of the site and photos of 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.719 the family. It was especially hard to look at the 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.360 smiling faces of the Heart kids as the experts relayed 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.160 the grotesque details of what their little bodies endured before 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.800 and after the fall. An inquest seats a jury. This 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.680 one had fourteen jurors, but it isn't the same as 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:42.479 a criminal trial. During an inquest, witnesses speak straight to 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.760 a hearing officer. There are no objections or interruptions. During 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.120 recesses in the courtroom, Lauren was able to grab a 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.039 cup of coffee or check in with us back in 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.320 New York. On the live stream, those brakes were filled 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.039 with a stock video of a babbling brook. It's a 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:01.120 civilized affair, almost amusingly civilized, a at the least civilized 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:05.479 thing you can imagine. Here's Lauren. I've been to will 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.160 It's once before. Back in November, I drove through on 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.640 my way to the Heart crash site. Ominous smog hung 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.320 about the town. The first sign of the Paradise fire 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.000 that covered northern California in Hayes for a week. The 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.159 Justice Center is a cream colored stucco building that used 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:23.960 to function as a bustling courtroom but now serves as 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.159 the police station. As Tom Alman explained it to me, well, 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.720 it's a small town of five thousand people. We are 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.000 in a courtroom that hasn't been used for over twelve 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.719 years because the the Supere Court of the state closed 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.159 this courtroom officially. So this is not actually a courtroom. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.600 We're in a justice center. Literally, it has not been 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.080 used for twelve years. And so we came in here 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:46.560 a couple of weeks ago and we looked at it, 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.919 and we changed the battery of the clock, and we 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.680 put up a new calendar, and it's ready to go. 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.159 The court room fits an audience of approximately fifty, but 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.159 nearly half the seats are empty. No family members, adoptive 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.320 or biological, are in attendance. The Hearts neighbor Danta de 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.880 cal told me she'd be watching from home. The inquest 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.240 is conducted by Matthew Guichard, a white haired attorney with 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.200 nearly four decades of law experience. B sharts diligent and 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:18.200 soothing manner kept things on track. He typically oversees in 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.640 quests back in the Bay Area for death that directly 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.960 involved law enforcement, like a police shooting or an inmate 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.839 dying in custody. He's done more than a hundred of 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.440 these before it all begins. I have questions, big ones. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:34.800 I want to know what investigators heard from their friends 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.839 and family members who declined to speak with me on 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.960 the record. I want to know at what point, after 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.040 fleeing from CPS, Jens, Sarah or both of them together 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.839 finalize their plan. I want to know whether the kids 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.320 had antihistamines in their system to treat allergies, or if 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.440 their moms gave it to them to lull them to sleep. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.479 I want to know where Jen got the alcohol that 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.039 was in her system. Did she stop somewhere on the 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.760 side off of high Way One or did she bring 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:03.599 it with her knowing she might need it for what 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.400 was to come later. Call it closure, even obsession. I 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.760 want absolute clarity about what happened in those final days. 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.040 And I thought I'd just tell the jury how we're 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.520 going to proceed today and for the record, I'm going 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.160 to initially call some of the first responders, and I 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.920 mentioned the name The inquest is a step by step 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.280 presentation of the forensic evidence collected over the course of 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.800 the past year. Evidence the California Highway Patrol says took 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:36.440 tens of thousands of hours to compile. The key testimony 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:41.800 comes from HP officer Jake Slates. Much of what Slate's 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.880 disclosed on the stand is familiar territory for listeners of 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.080 this podcast, but there are new details and accounts too. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.640 He says that after the photo of Davante hugging the 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:56.040 cop went viral, Jen received harassing emails. These were not invented. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:00.880 Slate's read them himself. Another shocking reveal there was a 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.679 new witness, a camper who says he heard the revving 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.520 engine of the Yukon and a cry from the bottom 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.200 of the cliff at three am, but dismissed it as 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.640 an animal sound. It's awful to think someone could have 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.160 responded sooner, but the inquest pathologist Dr. Greg Pizzarro thinks 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.600 it's unlikely anyone could have survived a fall of that magnitude. 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.920 The deaths, he says, would have been nearly instantaneous. Slate 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.040 says when rescue workers towed the yukon back up the cliff. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.280 Jen's body, which had been wedged behind the steering wheel, 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.480 fell some sixty ft, which made it difficult to identify 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:41.080 her at first. Those details are hard to stomach, but 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.760 deep into the second day of the inquest, we got 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.959 the answer to a question that has been bugging us 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.439 for over a year. What role did Sarah Hart play 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.040 and all of this? Was she complicit in Jen's plan? 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.400 Slates revealed that he was able to recover Sarah's cell 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:15.360 phone records from right before the crash. Sarah began asking 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:23.480 Google questions such as, canis of benadryl kill pound woman? 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.000 What over the counter medications can you take to overdose? 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.040 How can I easily overdose on overcounter medications? As death 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.680 by drowning relatively painless? How long does it take to 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.480 die from hypothermia and water while drowning in a car? 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:46.000 What will happen when overdosing with benadryl. One of the 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.600 last searches that she did on her phone was while 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.160 they're traveling through Oregon, and it was a search that 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.719 she entered in and requesting Google to identify no kill 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:03.480 shelters for dogs. These questions went on for hours. Sarah 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.600 kept googling from after midnight the friday they fled until 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.280 six thirty pm the next evening, and this wasn't a hypothetical. 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.720 At the time of her death, Slates estimated Sarah Hart 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:19.640 had ingested forty two doses of an off brand antihistamine. 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.920 Both liquid and pill versions of the drug were found 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.640 in the Yukon. The family had stopped to buy the 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.000 medicine at Walmart before ever leaving Washington, so there it was. 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.120 Sarah was in on it. She wanted to die. She 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.320 wanted all of them to die too, and she wasn't 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.720 the only one with shockingly high levels of the drug 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.640 in her system. Marcus, after doing the math, would have 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.520 had to take in nineteen approximate nineteen point to uh 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.920 single dose units, Abigail would have had to take in 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.880 fourteen dosage units, and Jeremiah would have had to take 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.200 in eight point eight single dosage units in order for 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.839 them to get at level at that point that the 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.800 blood is drawn. Now that doesn't mean that they took 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.760 that number. They could have been given more, but just 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.640 at the time of the autopsies when we drew their blood, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.480 that's what would have been in their system. Slate said 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.560 that Sarah would likely have been extremely intoxicated by the 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.920 amount of medication she had taken, and the kids would 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:25.520 be quote more than likely unconscious or sleeping. Jen, who 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.000 was driving, didn't have the drug in her system, but 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.200 had a blood alcohol content of point one oh or 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:36.280 about five drinks, which Slate said was especially significant. We 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.640 also know through our investigation and interviews of people that 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.880 Jennifer never drank either. Witnesses stated that they never saw 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.360 her have a drink, or they'd say occasionally they'd see 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.920 her maybe have a glass of wine, but never finished 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.200 that wine. Um So for a person to be at 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:59.440 that level of intoxication and to have never drank or 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:05.559 rarely ever drank, it would be extremely difficult for that 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.000 person to function. Slates testified that he didn't believe Jen 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.120 and Sarah knew exactly what they were going to do 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.719 when they sped out of their Washington home on Friday night, 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.880 even when Sarah was googling suicide methods on Saturday. He 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.560 didn't think they had fully committed to the plan. Here's why. 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.320 On Sunday morning, the day before their death, Jen bought 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.160 groceries it Safe Way. Remember that's where she used her 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.160 club card for discounts. That same day, she picked up 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.120 eight toothbrushes and deodorant at a nearby dollar tree. We've 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.160 had a bit of an internal debate here. Could this 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.800 be evidence that they still wanted to live? After all? 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.640 Who takes these precautions or buys these items when certain 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.959 death is only a few hours away. On Saturday night, 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.240 they switched off the vehicle's GPS for the first time 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.440 in nine years. But Slates thinks Jen and Sarah's decision 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.480 fully crystallized on Sunday as they drove up and down 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:08.080 the coast near Fort Bragg, in between stops at beaches 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:13.120 and parks a wanderer's itinerary, they stopped waffling. They drugged 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:18.000 the kids, Sarah numbed herself with pills, and Jen, who 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:23.439 always called the shots in the relationship, finished the job. Ultimately, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.200 I feel that, based on Sarah and Jennifer's past history, 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.559 the pattern that we see of um, the alleged child abuse, 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.280 and confrontations that they may have received out of the community, 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.200 that this was just another case where they would run. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:42.960 One of the final questions I would ask all my 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.720 witnesses would be based on the fact and how well 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.959 you know Sarah and Jennifer Hart. Would this be an 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.160 act that they could do? Would this beast? Would they 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.320 be the type of people that would say, if I 0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:00.440 can't have my children, nobody can have my children. And 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.480 most of the witnesses either stated yes Jennifer would say that, 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.959 or yes, that would be a decision that either both 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.120 of them would make. The jury only deliberated for an hour, 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:17.480 the verdict was swift and unanimous. The death certificates for 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:22.800 Jennifer and Sarah Hart will be listed as suicide, and 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.080 the six children who perished on that day, their death certainly, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.680 as a jury rule, was determined to be at the 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.440 hands of another other by accident, and their death certificates 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:39.760 will list homicide as a demander of death. Afterward, most 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.320 jurors quickly made their way to their cars, but one, 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.600 Tony Howard, stayed back to talk to reporters for a 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.320 few moments. I'm going to be really honest with you guys. 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.040 Coming up with the decision really wasn't the hard part. 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.600 Dealing with the told tragedy was the hard part. There 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.760 was some discussion, however, after some short discussions, it was 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:06.240 the anemous just the magnitude of all the children. Um, 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.040 that was a hard part for a lot of people. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.320 It's been nearly four months since we wrapped the eighth 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.000 and final episode of Broken Hearts. Since the series launched 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.160 in December, it's been downloaded over six million times, something Liz, 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.560 Lauren and I didn't expect when we first started thinking 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.880 about this case. With the wide reach of the series, 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.120 also came comments from our listeners, many of whom experienced 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.560 the same roller coaster of emotions we did while trying 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.400 to better understand what happened to the Hearts. There was 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.240 positive feedback about how we viewed the story through an 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.120 empathetic lens, question how social media can distort the truth, 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.160 and how we were able to reveal the cracks and 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:47.520 loopholes in the interstate adoption system. There was also criticism 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.640 were we really the right people to tell the story? 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.440 Should we have brought our own experiences as mothers into it? 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.320 And how could we have used the word anti hero 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:00.000 to describe Jen and Sarah in the final episode. We've 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.960 read all the reviews and one point of clarification. Anti 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.720 hero doesn't mean a sympathetic hero. In fact, it means 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.360 the opposite, an anti hero is someone who altogether lacks 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:16.720 heroic qualities, and Jen and Sarah were not heroic. While 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.640 the details revealed at the inquest confirmed the worst of 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.720 our suspicions, we still believe that trying to see the 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.360 humanity in even the ugliest stories is the only way 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:30.160 to understand why people do the things they do. More 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.120 than anything, we created this podcast not to tell a 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.320 story perfectly or to solve a crime, but to try 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.560 to give a voice to six children whose own voices 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:49.200 were silenced. Their names were Marcus, Hannah, Davante, Abigail, Jeremiah, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.720 and Sierra. Through all of our reporting, there were very 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.360 few recordings or pieces of evidence that could help us 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.200 fully understand the hell the Heart Kids endured. A few 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.080 weeks ago, a listener emailed us about her own experience. 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.240 She says she was one of four black siblings adopted 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.359 out of foster care by a white family across state lines, 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.679 and her story bears more than a passing resemblance to 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.160 the Hearts. She told us it was hard to listen 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.879 to this podcast because so many times she thought that 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:22.400 could have been me. My mother during the eighties had 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.960 a crack. Addition, for about twenty years and she had 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.280 eight children's totals a little blurred because I've never been 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.280 able to get a clear cut story from my adoptive mother. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.479 Because of the sensitive nature of her story, we've chosen 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.879 not to use this listener's name. They were like the 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.160 granola eaters. If you had a blueprint, it was them. 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.840 They were vegan hindoo, tree huggers. You know, we didn't 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.959 have any process. Some clothes were hand me down, I mean, 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.040 wild hair, you know, like the ultimate hid the lifestyle, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.840 and for us it was shocking because we're coming from 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.240 you know, eating long John Silber's and living in a 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.720 home with other black people. So it didn't, of course 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:12.480 start off to be a horrible situation because their intentions, 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.520 in my opinion, were good, and they have to be 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.199 because of the fact you're taking on children that you 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.840 know will have some type of attachment issues, emotional issues. 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.800 They have a slight understanding of the children that they're 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.920 bringing on, but I don't think it's a full understanding 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.840 of what they're about to take on. She says she 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.280 and her siblings only took instruction from an older sister. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.920 There were trust issues, there were behavioral issues. She thinks 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.240 her adoptive mother became overwhelmed by her lack of control 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.840 over the kids. She thinks, no, she knows there are 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.000 many more children with a similar story, and she wants 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.800 them to know they're not alone. She wants to help 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.480 lift them out of the despair. She so acutely understands 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.679 her type of punishment wasn't necessarily that she would hit 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:05.719 us or beat us to start off doing that, and 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.800 realized that really wasn't effective for us, because you know, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:10.399 we came from flosph Care. We used to get our 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.399 aspet all the time with self from the flospterh paars, 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.159 So you would really have to do a number in 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:19.439 us for us to really be moved by violence. As 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.520 far as punishment, she used the Star Wars show bad 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.400 that we would still from the neighbors, we would break 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.440 that to their home and raise the frigerators because we 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.840 were the mostated children on the block. Because we wouldn't 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.679 still thinks we'd break into their homes and still food 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.840 cps got involved a few times, but the warning signs, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.680 and there were many warning signs, didn't sound any alarms. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.719 People saw what they wanted to see. Nobody's coming out 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.000 to the check up on five children, so just not 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.480 it's too far out. The closest office probably would have 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.800 been a good two and a half hour drive. They 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.639 just felt like you were saying in the podcast that 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.879 what could possibly be wrong? Thank God? These white people 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.119 want to take care of these black children who are 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.400 visit to crack and have all these issues. Thank God, 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.840 Like you should be grateful that they've been adopted as 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.600 a sibling group. You know, she has thought long and 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:19.040 hard about trying to press charges, but it's complicated. So 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.480 I still have relationships with both of them. Actually have 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.760 spoke to my dad yesterday. He has a new partner, 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.600 and um, she's really helped him not trying to sweep 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.360 things under the rug. She has been able to kind 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.479 of give him perspective as to why his children are 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.880 so mad at him and what he's done and now 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:42.560 has to truly internalize that that's his burden right there there. 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.959 And with also my adoptive mother. You know, there's no 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.120 way she cannot sit here and think about the things 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.679 that she's done and stilly, that's also her burden. She 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:54.560 says she'd like to write a book about all of 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:56.800 this one day. She has a baby of her own 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.320 now and while it's been healing to feel that love 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:01.760 it all, who reminds her of what she lived through 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.119 now that I know would have felt like. And I 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:05.800 knew it was going to change after you know, I 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.280 have childs because everyone always told you could felt differently. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.280 We have a child, and now that I do, it's like, 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.520 I don't understand how old you could even look in 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.359 the face of a child and neglects them, not feed 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:32.680 them or do anything. So where do we go from here? 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.080 There was a woman at the inquest named Mary. She 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.160 says she never knew the hearts, but the story hits 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:40.960 close to home. She adopted three of her four kids 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:43.880 out of the foster system, and those firsthand how taxing 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.359 and isolating it can be to raise children, especially multiple 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.280 children who have experienced trauma. You know, when you're going 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:54.520 through the process out of foster into adoption, you know 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.400 there are people and agencies around that can answer questions 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:03.080 and you know, uh provide some amount of support. But 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.240 for most families, once the adoption papers are signed, you 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.080 are pretty much on your own. And of course it's 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.040 it's after that time where a lot of the um 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.200 issues come out from you know, whatever led to those 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.879 kids being um taken away from the biological families, whether 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:27.720 it was abuse and neglect, UM, drunken alcohol issues, violence, UM, 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:30.760 that is all going to come out eventually, and sometimes 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:33.360 when the kids are younger, but very often when their teens. 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.280 And you know, if you have more than one team 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:40.040 going through all those issues at once, it can be 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:44.800 really extremely challenging. I told a few friends that I 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.840 was thinking of coming, and they all tried to talk 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.600 me out of it, knowing that it would be really distressing. 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:58.960 But UM, I don't know, really that's okay. I just 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.920 feel like I need to be witness to what happens 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:08.840 to the tragedy of their family. Mary hopes that if 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.520 anything comes from the rehashing of the grisome details of 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.920 this case, it's reform in the adoption and foster systems. 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.440 This just is not something that was just obviously happened overnight. 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:24.359 It's something that happened at various places over time. And UM, 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.760 I mean, I I don't know them, I've never you know, 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.520 met anyone from the family. But as an adoptive mom, UM, 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:33.679 something's going to come out of this. It shouldn't just 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.159 be about finger pointing it needs to be about what 0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:40.080 help and support can we give other people who are 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:43.240 in these situations where you just feel like you don't 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:45.000 know where to go or who to turn to and 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.960 who can help and um that I mean, if we're 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.919 going to um honor them in any way that to 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:56.200 me would be would make the most sense. Sheriff Allman 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:59.320 hopes this story and the findings from the inquest will 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.560 show lawmakers how desperately we need a national database for 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:06.640 child abuse. After the inquest, he held a brief press conference. 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:11.840 We have a national database that reports mental illness, which 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.919 prohibits him from having guns. We have a national database 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.240 for criminal histories. We also have a national database for 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:21.800 gun registration. We do not have a national database for 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:25.280 child abuse allegations. And the fact that there were five 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:32.240 states involved Texas, Minnesota, Oregon, Washington, California certainly should be 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:39.480 an enlightening moment for our national legislatures. I'm not going 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:41.359 to say that that if there we had a national 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.480 database that the Heart family would still be alive, but 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:47.320 certainly there would have been more of an investigation and 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:50.760 find out if the adoptions had been appropriate in or 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:52.920 if CPS should be a little bit more involved in 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:56.520 what they were and then it was all over. The 0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:59.280 live stream shut off. It was time for Lauren to 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:03.080