WEBVTT - Trade and Geopolitics on the High Seas

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>BusinessWeek with Carol Masser and tim Stenoveek on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>You may remember on Wednesday, United Airline CEO Scott Kirby

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<v Speaker 1>warned that geopolitical tensions risk disrupting what's been a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>hot start to the year. Here's what he said to

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg's Lisa Brohmowitz. Quote, We're the largest global airline from

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<v Speaker 1>the US. We're exposed to all levels that are all

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<v Speaker 1>around the globe. He later noted it would cause short

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<v Speaker 1>term pain, but his airline will quote stay focused on

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<v Speaker 1>the long term.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to say it does feel like executives we've

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<v Speaker 2>talked about JP Morgan's Jamie Diamond, the conversation with David

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<v Speaker 2>Rubinstein when he talks about what could maybe, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>create some problems within financial markets, and he talks about

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<v Speaker 2>like what's going on around the globe and geopolitics. We're

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<v Speaker 2>increasingly hearing folks point.

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<v Speaker 1>To that that's exactly what we want to talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>With Stamatis and Tanas, chairman and chief executive officer of

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<v Speaker 1>Synergy Maritime Holdings and founder, chairman and c of United

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<v Speaker 1>Maritime Corporation. The two firms together, they're microcaps, they're traded

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<v Speaker 1>in the US. Together, they have a total of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five ships. They carry grains, wheat, corn, steel, copper, oil

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<v Speaker 1>and more all over the world. Stamatis is back here

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<v Speaker 1>in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome back, Thank you, nice to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>We spoke to you last over the summer in July,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was a time of geopolitical tension too, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was a different type of geopolitical tension. Are things

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<v Speaker 1>more or less stable in your view than they were then?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, suddenly they're less stable. I mean, you have so

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<v Speaker 4>many things going on around the world. You have disruptions,

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<v Speaker 4>you have like pot themselves, wars, all these things happening,

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<v Speaker 4>and you have all this new military drive that people

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<v Speaker 4>need to start building things again, which is not just

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<v Speaker 4>for real estate, but you needed four strategic visions, defense

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<v Speaker 4>and all that. So you know, shipping and raw materials

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<v Speaker 4>of steel Boux heied, I don't ore and coal they

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<v Speaker 4>become more and more relevant all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>So tell us what you're saying over doing a trip

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<v Speaker 2>to India during the financial crisis and trying to understand

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<v Speaker 2>you you've got a great view of this being an

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<v Speaker 2>emerging market and driving somewhere in the middle of the

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<v Speaker 2>night and seeing all the big trucks and really understanding

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<v Speaker 2>the build and the moving of materials around. You have

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<v Speaker 2>such a great vantage point of that. So with the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that's going on around the globe, whether it's from

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<v Speaker 2>the White House, whether it's from other regions, whether it's China,

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<v Speaker 2>what has shifted in terms of where the ships are

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<v Speaker 2>going and where activity is happening and what's being moved around.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, first of all, you have a commodity is rally right.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, you have gold, you have silver, you have thin,

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<v Speaker 4>you have copper. You have all these prices surging to

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<v Speaker 4>these levels. And I strongly believe that you're going to

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<v Speaker 4>see aluminum, you can have steel, and all these things

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<v Speaker 4>coming up a lot because demand is so strong for

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<v Speaker 4>these products.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's more movement of all of this.

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<v Speaker 4>I strongly believe you can have a lot of movement

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<v Speaker 4>for that because it's not just a good to have

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<v Speaker 4>real estate or house, but it's theategic, it's defense, it's military,

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<v Speaker 4>So you can have a lot of these things going on.

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<v Speaker 4>On top of that, you also have the AI, You

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<v Speaker 4>need to upgrade the power grids, you need to create

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<v Speaker 4>all these data centers, and all these things require vast

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<v Speaker 4>amounts of metals you know that we transport, So it's

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<v Speaker 4>pretty much important these days.

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<v Speaker 1>The geopolitical disruptions as far as what's happening out there

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<v Speaker 1>while the ships are out there, have you had to

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<v Speaker 1>make changes to routes as a result of any issues

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<v Speaker 1>as a result of countries military doing operations in certain places.

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<v Speaker 1>We saw the disruptions around Venezuela in that region, just

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<v Speaker 1>the commercial airlines for example, when Nicholas Maduro was brought

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<v Speaker 1>to the United States.

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<v Speaker 3>Have you been affected by any of that?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, of course, I mean Red Sea has been out

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<v Speaker 4>of the question for more than a year now. Black

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<v Speaker 4>Sea is out of the question because of missiles going

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<v Speaker 4>on board ships. So we tend to avoid this kind

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<v Speaker 4>of area. So the more places you avoid, the more

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<v Speaker 4>diversions you have for the ships, the longer distances you make,

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<v Speaker 4>and the more ships unit reads go up.

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, what are your biggest costs?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Give us an idea? I mean, these ships are not cheap.

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<v Speaker 2>Walk us through some of the dynamics or the financials here.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, inflation is everywhere, right, Building ships today has surged

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<v Speaker 4>a lot because you know all these ottle materials you

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<v Speaker 4>need to build the ships and then have fuel. But

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<v Speaker 4>fuel has been quite stable and as yeah. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 4>building the ship has actually gotten way more expensive. That's

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<v Speaker 4>how it is, you and that's also strategic. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>China has been building a lot of ships recently, and

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<v Speaker 4>prices keep going up and up all the time. So

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the US at the certain point need to

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<v Speaker 4>start building ships.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you building?

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<v Speaker 3>We are?

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<v Speaker 4>We are building some ships, yes, okay, Yes, in China

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<v Speaker 4>and Japan.

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<v Speaker 2>You are, yes, okay, are but the US is not.

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<v Speaker 4>No, you don't see a lot of building activity here.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the President hopes there will be some military ship

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<v Speaker 1>building activity here.

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<v Speaker 4>We all hope that there's going to be some building

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<v Speaker 4>activity here as well. But just going to wait then,

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<v Speaker 4>say when that's going to take place.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think the US can build the ships that

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<v Speaker 1>the President wants to see?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there's nothing that you want to buy.

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<v Speaker 4>There's nothing that the US cannot do, to be honest,

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<v Speaker 4>It's just going to be a matter of cost and time. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>So we're just going to wait and see. Hey, speaking

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<v Speaker 4>of that, in the US.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the last year, we've seen a push toward bringing

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturing back to the United States, the tariffs that have

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<v Speaker 1>gone into effect, the tariffs that have been used as

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<v Speaker 1>a cudgel against countries to get with the president wants.

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<v Speaker 1>In your view, does that eventually lead to fewer goods

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<v Speaker 1>traded between countries to the less of.

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<v Speaker 4>A need for your services. It should, but it doesn't happen.

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<v Speaker 4>Global trade has been going up year after year. You

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<v Speaker 4>have all these containerships actually being ordered and built and everything.

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<v Speaker 4>So in theory that's a very correct statement. But in

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<v Speaker 4>practical terms, I think global trade this keeps going up

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<v Speaker 4>every year after year, and it's unstoppable.

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<v Speaker 3>Why Why is it unsoppable?

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<v Speaker 4>Because you need infrastructure so in order to create and

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<v Speaker 4>it's just consumer goods. Consumer goods is only a partner shipping,

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<v Speaker 4>right all the heavy things, which is oil, oil products, metals,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't or coal, box side and all that. I

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<v Speaker 4>mean that keeps increasing year after year all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>What's the biggest part of your business in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>the stuff that you move around.

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<v Speaker 4>It's mostly out and ore and we do a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of box side and coal, so we move around twenty

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<v Speaker 4>million tones of for materials every year, and that's a

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<v Speaker 4>lot log.

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<v Speaker 2>Holes, that is long hauls. I am also curious about

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of trade routes. I think, you know, with

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<v Speaker 2>the US kind of pushing back and tariffs and so

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<v Speaker 2>on and so forth, are you seeing more trade just

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<v Speaker 2>in general between China and other parts of the world.

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<v Speaker 3>Where are you.

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<v Speaker 2>Seeing increases where are you seeing decreases?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, China has been increasing their imports in iron and

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<v Speaker 4>coal year after year. China has been producing fifty six

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<v Speaker 4>percent of the global STILL production. So whatever you need still,

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<v Speaker 4>you need to get it mostly from China. That's how

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<v Speaker 4>it works. You have about five trillion dollars of committed

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<v Speaker 4>infrastructure projects globally, so that's a huge amount of STILL

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<v Speaker 4>you're going to require in the next few years, excluding

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<v Speaker 4>data centers and everything associated with that. So you're going

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<v Speaker 4>to require a lot of STILL in the next few years.

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<v Speaker 4>And China has been very well prepared in importing a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of fraumatials.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think we're also that's fascinating because it's just

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<v Speaker 2>a reminder of supply chains where things are right. But

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<v Speaker 2>what about in terms of the pushback, Is there more

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<v Speaker 2>trade between China and Europe. I think we're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>assess what are the relationships around the world, and the

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<v Speaker 2>US continues it feels like some say to alienate certainly

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<v Speaker 2>its allies in other parts of the world. But is

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<v Speaker 2>that really happening from what you see in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>the activity.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, all these stative talk and all these port views

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<v Speaker 4>and everything that has been in discussions for the last

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<v Speaker 4>year or so, that hasn't really slowed down China at all.

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<v Speaker 4>China has been important big quantities of flat and ore

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<v Speaker 4>and boux side and all that. So year after year

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<v Speaker 4>they continue to increase their production of steel and aluminum

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<v Speaker 4>and all these strategic metals that you're going to require

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<v Speaker 4>for the future. So yes, China is still very vital

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<v Speaker 4>part of the global commodities and especially the metals.

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<v Speaker 3>We're speaking with.

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<v Speaker 1>Stamatist Santanas is the chairman and CEO of Synergy Maritime

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<v Speaker 1>Holdings and founder, chairman and CEO of United Maritime Corporation.

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<v Speaker 1>You transport oil around the world.

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<v Speaker 4>We transport mostly at a oracle and box side.

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<v Speaker 3>That's okay, we do, but also but also.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we used to have a few oil transportation ships tankers,

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<v Speaker 4>but we sold them a few years ago at the.

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<v Speaker 3>Pick, would you get back into it.

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<v Speaker 4>The answer is yes, at the next part of the cycle,

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<v Speaker 4>we will definitely get back into tankers. What part of

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<v Speaker 4>the cycle, Well, it's all times high right now, so

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<v Speaker 4>as at values and freight rates are at this peak

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<v Speaker 4>of old pick. So we will wait for the right

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<v Speaker 4>time in the cycle. Maybe it's going to be next

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<v Speaker 4>year or the year after, and we're definitely going to

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<v Speaker 4>get back into that.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you see Venezuela as an opportunity for you to

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<v Speaker 1>ship oil from to other parts of the world.

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<v Speaker 4>Venezuela it's still not a big part of the transportation

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<v Speaker 4>of oil globally. The only do like a few hundred

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<v Speaker 4>thousand battles per day, so that's not really important and

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<v Speaker 4>vital right now. Maybe it's going to get to a

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<v Speaker 4>point in the next few years, and I'm hopeful they will,

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<v Speaker 4>but so far we don't really see them as making

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<v Speaker 4>any material difference in seaborn oil.

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<v Speaker 2>You just back from Davos, Yes, talk to us about

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<v Speaker 2>what you heard on the ground, what you thought was interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>We've just talked with our David Weston of Wall Street Week,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know how so much of what the conversations

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<v Speaker 2>evolved once again around President Donald Trump. But I'm just

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<v Speaker 2>curious your take on the ground and what you were

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<v Speaker 2>hearing and seeing.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, it's all about infrastructure, it's all about defense, it's

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<v Speaker 4>all about military spending. It's all about alliances. So people

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<v Speaker 4>don't talk so much about you know, diversion and inclusiveness

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<v Speaker 4>and all these things anymore. They talk about strategic stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's completely different. I mean, the narrative in Davos,

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<v Speaker 4>it's all about the future of alliances, of infrastructure, real estate.

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<v Speaker 4>I was at the with Eric Trump the other day

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<v Speaker 4>and he all talked about, you know, about the projects

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<v Speaker 4>of the family in the Middle East and how spectacular

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<v Speaker 4>that he expects to be in the next few years.

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<v Speaker 4>So you hear a lot about the real estate, infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 4>and of course defense and alliances. That's what you're here.

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<v Speaker 2>What are you doing like between the you know, with

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<v Speaker 2>the Middle East that you can tell. I mean, it

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<v Speaker 2>just seems like they're certainly looking to diversify their economy,

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<v Speaker 2>investing in sports, investing in lots of different projects, technology

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<v Speaker 2>and so on and so forth. How do you see

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<v Speaker 2>it in terms of what they're doing and the activity.

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<v Speaker 4>The Middle East? Is a spectacular place. That's all I

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<v Speaker 4>can say. I mean the amount of development you see there.

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<v Speaker 4>Everything's modern, everything's new, everything's in huge scale. So I'm

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<v Speaker 4>very hopeful that the next few years the Middle East,

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<v Speaker 4>especially the UAE and Saudi Arabia, will continue to be

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<v Speaker 4>investing hundreds of billions of dollars into these beautiful, big

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<v Speaker 4>new buildings.

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<v Speaker 2>Stomatas just got thirty seconds left here a word or

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<v Speaker 2>two that you would describe the global economy right now

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<v Speaker 2>or for twenty twenty six as you see.

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<v Speaker 4>It, Well, it will continue to be very, very challenging.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that we're going to see way more important

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<v Speaker 4>disruptions happening and trading routes being kind of broken down.

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<v Speaker 4>But shipping has always been very agile to adopt in

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<v Speaker 4>whatever geopolitical or what have you changed, This has happened.

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<v Speaker 4>We've did COVID, we did everything, so it's going to

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<v Speaker 4>be fine.

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<v Speaker 2>We know you've been on the road a lot, and

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<v Speaker 2>I know you're headed home, but thanks so much for

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<v Speaker 2>finding time in stopping by our studios. Stamata Santanas He

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<v Speaker 2>is chairman and CEO. I've seen energy, maritime holdings and

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<v Speaker 2>also of the United maritime corporation synergy. Forgive me maritime holdings.

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<v Speaker 2>This is bloomger