Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: BusinessWeek with Carol Masser and tim Stenoveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: You may remember on Wednesday, United Airline CEO Scott Kirby
Speaker 1: warned that geopolitical tensions risk disrupting what's been a pretty
Speaker 1: hot start to the year. Here's what he said to
Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Lisa Brohmowitz. Quote, We're the largest global airline from
Speaker 1: the US. We're exposed to all levels that are all
Speaker 1: around the globe. He later noted it would cause short
Speaker 1: term pain, but his airline will quote stay focused on
Speaker 1: the long term.
Speaker 2: I have to say it does feel like executives we've
Speaker 2: talked about JP Morgan's Jamie Diamond, the conversation with David
Speaker 2: Rubinstein when he talks about what could maybe, you know,
Speaker 2: create some problems within financial markets, and he talks about
Speaker 2: like what's going on around the globe and geopolitics. We're
Speaker 2: increasingly hearing folks point.
Speaker 1: To that that's exactly what we want to talk about.
Speaker 1: With Stamatis and Tanas, chairman and chief executive officer of
Speaker 1: Synergy Maritime Holdings and founder, chairman and c of United
Speaker 1: Maritime Corporation. The two firms together, they're microcaps, they're traded
Speaker 1: in the US. Together, they have a total of twenty
Speaker 1: five ships. They carry grains, wheat, corn, steel, copper, oil
Speaker 1: and more all over the world. Stamatis is back here
Speaker 1: in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio.
Speaker 3: Welcome back, Thank you, nice to be here.
Speaker 1: We spoke to you last over the summer in July,
Speaker 1: and that was a time of geopolitical tension too, but
Speaker 1: it was a different type of geopolitical tension. Are things
Speaker 1: more or less stable in your view than they were then?
Speaker 4: Well, suddenly they're less stable. I mean, you have so
Speaker 4: many things going on around the world. You have disruptions,
Speaker 4: you have like pot themselves, wars, all these things happening,
Speaker 4: and you have all this new military drive that people
Speaker 4: need to start building things again, which is not just
Speaker 4: for real estate, but you needed four strategic visions, defense
Speaker 4: and all that. So you know, shipping and raw materials
Speaker 4: of steel Boux heied, I don't ore and coal they
Speaker 4: become more and more relevant all the time.
Speaker 2: So tell us what you're saying over doing a trip
Speaker 2: to India during the financial crisis and trying to understand
Speaker 2: you you've got a great view of this being an
Speaker 2: emerging market and driving somewhere in the middle of the
Speaker 2: night and seeing all the big trucks and really understanding
Speaker 2: the build and the moving of materials around. You have
Speaker 2: such a great vantage point of that. So with the
Speaker 2: stuff that's going on around the globe, whether it's from
Speaker 2: the White House, whether it's from other regions, whether it's China,
Speaker 2: what has shifted in terms of where the ships are
Speaker 2: going and where activity is happening and what's being moved around.
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, you have a commodity is rally right.
Speaker 4: I mean, you have gold, you have silver, you have thin,
Speaker 4: you have copper. You have all these prices surging to
Speaker 4: these levels. And I strongly believe that you're going to
Speaker 4: see aluminum, you can have steel, and all these things
Speaker 4: coming up a lot because demand is so strong for
Speaker 4: these products.
Speaker 2: So there's more movement of all of this.
Speaker 4: I strongly believe you can have a lot of movement
Speaker 4: for that because it's not just a good to have
Speaker 4: real estate or house, but it's theategic, it's defense, it's military,
Speaker 4: So you can have a lot of these things going on.
Speaker 4: On top of that, you also have the AI, You
Speaker 4: need to upgrade the power grids, you need to create
Speaker 4: all these data centers, and all these things require vast
Speaker 4: amounts of metals you know that we transport, So it's
Speaker 4: pretty much important these days.
Speaker 1: The geopolitical disruptions as far as what's happening out there
Speaker 1: while the ships are out there, have you had to
Speaker 1: make changes to routes as a result of any issues
Speaker 1: as a result of countries military doing operations in certain places.
Speaker 1: We saw the disruptions around Venezuela in that region, just
Speaker 1: the commercial airlines for example, when Nicholas Maduro was brought
Speaker 1: to the United States.
Speaker 3: Have you been affected by any of that?
Speaker 4: Well, of course, I mean Red Sea has been out
Speaker 4: of the question for more than a year now. Black
Speaker 4: Sea is out of the question because of missiles going
Speaker 4: on board ships. So we tend to avoid this kind
Speaker 4: of area. So the more places you avoid, the more
Speaker 4: diversions you have for the ships, the longer distances you make,
Speaker 4: and the more ships unit reads go up.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, what are your biggest costs?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: Give us an idea? I mean, these ships are not cheap.
Speaker 2: Walk us through some of the dynamics or the financials here.
Speaker 4: Well, inflation is everywhere, right, Building ships today has surged
Speaker 4: a lot because you know all these ottle materials you
Speaker 4: need to build the ships and then have fuel. But
Speaker 4: fuel has been quite stable and as yeah. Yeah, but
Speaker 4: building the ship has actually gotten way more expensive. That's
Speaker 4: how it is, you and that's also strategic. I mean,
Speaker 4: China has been building a lot of ships recently, and
Speaker 4: prices keep going up and up all the time. So
Speaker 4: you know, the US at the certain point need to
Speaker 4: start building ships.
Speaker 2: Are you building?
Speaker 3: We are?
Speaker 4: We are building some ships, yes, okay, Yes, in China
Speaker 4: and Japan.
Speaker 2: You are, yes, okay, are but the US is not.
Speaker 4: No, you don't see a lot of building activity here.
Speaker 1: Well, the President hopes there will be some military ship
Speaker 1: building activity here.
Speaker 4: We all hope that there's going to be some building
Speaker 4: activity here as well. But just going to wait then,
Speaker 4: say when that's going to take place.
Speaker 1: Do you think the US can build the ships that
Speaker 1: the President wants to see?
Speaker 3: Well, there's nothing that you want to buy.
Speaker 4: There's nothing that the US cannot do, to be honest,
Speaker 4: It's just going to be a matter of cost and time. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So we're just going to wait and see. Hey, speaking
Speaker 4: of that, in the US.
Speaker 1: Over the last year, we've seen a push toward bringing
Speaker 1: manufacturing back to the United States, the tariffs that have
Speaker 1: gone into effect, the tariffs that have been used as
Speaker 1: a cudgel against countries to get with the president wants.
Speaker 1: In your view, does that eventually lead to fewer goods
Speaker 1: traded between countries to the less of.
Speaker 4: A need for your services. It should, but it doesn't happen.
Speaker 4: Global trade has been going up year after year. You
Speaker 4: have all these containerships actually being ordered and built and everything.
Speaker 4: So in theory that's a very correct statement. But in
Speaker 4: practical terms, I think global trade this keeps going up
Speaker 4: every year after year, and it's unstoppable.
Speaker 3: Why Why is it unsoppable?
Speaker 4: Because you need infrastructure so in order to create and
Speaker 4: it's just consumer goods. Consumer goods is only a partner shipping,
Speaker 4: right all the heavy things, which is oil, oil products, metals,
Speaker 4: I don't or coal, box side and all that. I
Speaker 4: mean that keeps increasing year after year all the time.
Speaker 2: What's the biggest part of your business in terms of
Speaker 2: the stuff that you move around.
Speaker 4: It's mostly out and ore and we do a lot
Speaker 4: of box side and coal, so we move around twenty
Speaker 4: million tones of for materials every year, and that's a
Speaker 4: lot log.
Speaker 2: Holes, that is long hauls. I am also curious about
Speaker 2: in terms of trade routes. I think, you know, with
Speaker 2: the US kind of pushing back and tariffs and so
Speaker 2: on and so forth, are you seeing more trade just
Speaker 2: in general between China and other parts of the world.
Speaker 3: Where are you.
Speaker 2: Seeing increases where are you seeing decreases?
Speaker 4: Well, China has been increasing their imports in iron and
Speaker 4: coal year after year. China has been producing fifty six
Speaker 4: percent of the global STILL production. So whatever you need still,
Speaker 4: you need to get it mostly from China. That's how
Speaker 4: it works. You have about five trillion dollars of committed
Speaker 4: infrastructure projects globally, so that's a huge amount of STILL
Speaker 4: you're going to require in the next few years, excluding
Speaker 4: data centers and everything associated with that. So you're going
Speaker 4: to require a lot of STILL in the next few years.
Speaker 4: And China has been very well prepared in importing a
Speaker 4: lot of fraumatials.
Speaker 2: But I think we're also that's fascinating because it's just
Speaker 2: a reminder of supply chains where things are right. But
Speaker 2: what about in terms of the pushback, Is there more
Speaker 2: trade between China and Europe. I think we're trying to
Speaker 2: assess what are the relationships around the world, and the
Speaker 2: US continues it feels like some say to alienate certainly
Speaker 2: its allies in other parts of the world. But is
Speaker 2: that really happening from what you see in terms of
Speaker 2: the activity.
Speaker 4: Well, all these stative talk and all these port views
Speaker 4: and everything that has been in discussions for the last
Speaker 4: year or so, that hasn't really slowed down China at all.
Speaker 4: China has been important big quantities of flat and ore
Speaker 4: and boux side and all that. So year after year
Speaker 4: they continue to increase their production of steel and aluminum
Speaker 4: and all these strategic metals that you're going to require
Speaker 4: for the future. So yes, China is still very vital
Speaker 4: part of the global commodities and especially the metals.
Speaker 3: We're speaking with.
Speaker 1: Stamatist Santanas is the chairman and CEO of Synergy Maritime
Speaker 1: Holdings and founder, chairman and CEO of United Maritime Corporation.
Speaker 1: You transport oil around the world.
Speaker 4: We transport mostly at a oracle and box side.
Speaker 3: That's okay, we do, but also but also.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we used to have a few oil transportation ships tankers,
Speaker 4: but we sold them a few years ago at the.
Speaker 3: Pick, would you get back into it.
Speaker 4: The answer is yes, at the next part of the cycle,
Speaker 4: we will definitely get back into tankers. What part of
Speaker 4: the cycle, Well, it's all times high right now, so
Speaker 4: as at values and freight rates are at this peak
Speaker 4: of old pick. So we will wait for the right
Speaker 4: time in the cycle. Maybe it's going to be next
Speaker 4: year or the year after, and we're definitely going to
Speaker 4: get back into that.
Speaker 1: Do you see Venezuela as an opportunity for you to
Speaker 1: ship oil from to other parts of the world.
Speaker 4: Venezuela it's still not a big part of the transportation
Speaker 4: of oil globally. The only do like a few hundred
Speaker 4: thousand battles per day, so that's not really important and
Speaker 4: vital right now. Maybe it's going to get to a
Speaker 4: point in the next few years, and I'm hopeful they will,
Speaker 4: but so far we don't really see them as making
Speaker 4: any material difference in seaborn oil.
Speaker 2: You just back from Davos, Yes, talk to us about
Speaker 2: what you heard on the ground, what you thought was interesting.
Speaker 2: We've just talked with our David Weston of Wall Street Week,
Speaker 2: and you know how so much of what the conversations
Speaker 2: evolved once again around President Donald Trump. But I'm just
Speaker 2: curious your take on the ground and what you were
Speaker 2: hearing and seeing.
Speaker 4: Well, it's all about infrastructure, it's all about defense, it's
Speaker 4: all about military spending. It's all about alliances. So people
Speaker 4: don't talk so much about you know, diversion and inclusiveness
Speaker 4: and all these things anymore. They talk about strategic stuff.
Speaker 4: So it's completely different. I mean, the narrative in Davos,
Speaker 4: it's all about the future of alliances, of infrastructure, real estate.
Speaker 4: I was at the with Eric Trump the other day
Speaker 4: and he all talked about, you know, about the projects
Speaker 4: of the family in the Middle East and how spectacular
Speaker 4: that he expects to be in the next few years.
Speaker 4: So you hear a lot about the real estate, infrastructure,
Speaker 4: and of course defense and alliances. That's what you're here.
Speaker 2: What are you doing like between the you know, with
Speaker 2: the Middle East that you can tell. I mean, it
Speaker 2: just seems like they're certainly looking to diversify their economy,
Speaker 2: investing in sports, investing in lots of different projects, technology
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. How do you see
Speaker 2: it in terms of what they're doing and the activity.
Speaker 4: The Middle East? Is a spectacular place. That's all I
Speaker 4: can say. I mean the amount of development you see there.
Speaker 4: Everything's modern, everything's new, everything's in huge scale. So I'm
Speaker 4: very hopeful that the next few years the Middle East,
Speaker 4: especially the UAE and Saudi Arabia, will continue to be
Speaker 4: investing hundreds of billions of dollars into these beautiful, big
Speaker 4: new buildings.
Speaker 2: Stomatas just got thirty seconds left here a word or
Speaker 2: two that you would describe the global economy right now
Speaker 2: or for twenty twenty six as you see.
Speaker 4: It, Well, it will continue to be very, very challenging.
Speaker 4: I think that we're going to see way more important
Speaker 4: disruptions happening and trading routes being kind of broken down.
Speaker 4: But shipping has always been very agile to adopt in
Speaker 4: whatever geopolitical or what have you changed, This has happened.
Speaker 4: We've did COVID, we did everything, so it's going to
Speaker 4: be fine.
Speaker 2: We know you've been on the road a lot, and
Speaker 2: I know you're headed home, but thanks so much for
Speaker 2: finding time in stopping by our studios. Stamata Santanas He
Speaker 2: is chairman and CEO. I've seen energy, maritime holdings and
Speaker 2: also of the United maritime corporation synergy. Forgive me maritime holdings.
Speaker 2: This is bloomger