WEBVTT - #168 Wrongful Conviction: False Confessions - The Birmingham Six

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I

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<v Speaker 1>writer and I'm Steve Drissen. Today's story is about a

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<v Speaker 1>group of innocent Irish men known as the Birmingham Six.

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<v Speaker 1>They were accused of planting bombs inside two pubs in Birmingham,

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<v Speaker 1>England in nineteen seventy two, and they were tortured into

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<v Speaker 1>giving false confessions. All six men were freed in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety one, but the crime's never been solved. The public

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<v Speaker 1>is still demanding answers today about who really planted those bombs. Steve.

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<v Speaker 1>When we went on our speaking tour last year for

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<v Speaker 1>Making a Murderer, one of my favorite places we visited

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<v Speaker 1>was Belfast in Northern Ireland.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was one of the highlights of our travels.

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<v Speaker 2>It was almost like coming home, coming to a place

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<v Speaker 2>which understood the work I've been doing for most of

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<v Speaker 2>my professional life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there was something about false confessions that really resonated

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<v Speaker 1>with that audience.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a lived experience and it goes back to the

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<v Speaker 2>way in which the Birmingham Six were treated by law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, okay, so here's the thing, right. The Birmingham Six

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<v Speaker 1>was a case that arose from the fact that two

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<v Speaker 1>pubs in Birmingham, England were bombed. It was one of

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest mass murders to happen on British soil after

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<v Speaker 1>World War Two. I mean, this is like the Oklahoma

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<v Speaker 1>City bombing here in the United States. And the blame

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<v Speaker 1>for this crime was placed on these six Irish guys

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<v Speaker 1>who were living in England but who had deep roots

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<v Speaker 1>in Belfast. The injustice of what happened to these guys

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<v Speaker 1>is like almost nothing I've seen before.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a profound experience of police abuses and of torture

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<v Speaker 2>in the interrogation rooms.

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<v Speaker 1>Their story resonates for so many people in Northern Ireland

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<v Speaker 1>because the whole place has this incredible history of conflict

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<v Speaker 1>and struggle against power. I actually think that history is

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<v Speaker 1>what brought so many people out last year to our talk.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I'd like to believe they came to see

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<v Speaker 1>you and me, but they were probably there to hear

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<v Speaker 1>about injustice and how to fight it. And that's a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit better of a reason. I think our story

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<v Speaker 1>today begins in Birmingham, England. It's the second largest city

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<v Speaker 1>in the United Kingdom, with a population in the millions,

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<v Speaker 1>mostly English, but also hundreds of thousands of Irish. Like

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<v Speaker 1>any big city, Birmingham's got a thriving social scene. In particular,

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<v Speaker 1>on almost every corner there's a pub. It's in two

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<v Speaker 1>of those pubs that our story really begins, two ordinary

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<v Speaker 1>places where people go after work to get a pint

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<v Speaker 1>of beer. On November twenty first, nineteen seventy four, two

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<v Speaker 1>Birmingham pubs became together the scene of Britain's deadliest mass

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<v Speaker 1>murder in modern history. It all started at eight eleven

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<v Speaker 1>in the evening, an anonymous man with an Irish accent

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<v Speaker 1>placed a phone call to the Birmingham Post newspaper. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a bomb planted in the Rotunda, he said, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>a bomb in New Street. This, he added, is double X.

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<v Speaker 1>Then silence he'd hung up. The Rotunda was a high

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<v Speaker 1>rise office building in downtown Birmingham with a pub on

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<v Speaker 1>its first floor called the Mulberry Bush. New Street. Around

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<v Speaker 1>the corner was where the city tax office was. There

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<v Speaker 1>was a pub on that building's first floor too, called

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<v Speaker 1>the Tavern in the Town. And then, only six minutes

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<v Speaker 1>after that anonymous phone call, it happened two huge explosions.

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<v Speaker 1>The first was at the Mulberry Bush at eight seventeen pm.

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<v Speaker 1>A homemade bomb had been left in a leather bag

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere near the back door. When the bomb exploded, the

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<v Speaker 1>pub was packed with people and the damage was horrific.

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<v Speaker 1>The ceiling collapsed, fire engulfed the place. People were crushed

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<v Speaker 1>and burned to death. Others were impaled by falling beams.

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<v Speaker 1>First responders arrived and began working desperately to rescue survivors.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time, police were frantically trying to evacuate

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<v Speaker 1>the tavern in the town, but they couldn't clear it

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<v Speaker 1>fast enough. At eight twenty seven pm, a second homemade

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<v Speaker 1>bomb exploded there again, the packed pub was destroyed. That

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<v Speaker 1>explosion was so powerful that people were blown through the

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<v Speaker 1>brick walls between the two pubs. Twenty one people died

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<v Speaker 1>and one hundred and eighty two were injured. It was

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<v Speaker 1>a coordinated attack that left Britain reeling. So why would

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<v Speaker 1>anyone bomb pubs in Birmingham? The answer is politics and history.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's our friend, doctor Hannah Quirk. She's a professor at

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<v Speaker 1>King's College, London who studies wrongful convictions and, like a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of folks in the United Kingdom, in Ireland. She

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<v Speaker 1>had a front row seat to that history. When she's

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<v Speaker 1>talking to people who are new to this part of

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<v Speaker 1>the world, Hannah likes to start here.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's obviously the famous U two song about Bloody Sunday.

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<v Speaker 1>That song's more than a pop anthem. It tells the

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<v Speaker 1>story of the long running and sometimes violent conflict between

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<v Speaker 1>Ireland and Britain. And here's that story in a nutshell.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a long, complicated history in Ireland, hundreds of years

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<v Speaker 3>of history. But in nineteen twenty two there'd been a

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<v Speaker 3>civil war and the majority of Ireland was given independence

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<v Speaker 3>from Great Britain and formed the Irish Free State. But

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<v Speaker 3>a deal was done to say that the six counties

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<v Speaker 3>of Northern Ireland would remain part of the United Kingdom.

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<v Speaker 1>Not everyone was happy with this deal, though. People became

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<v Speaker 1>intensely divided about whether Northern Ireland should be part of

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<v Speaker 1>the United Kingdom or join the Republic of Ireland, and

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<v Speaker 1>those divisions often fell along religious lines.

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<v Speaker 3>Most Catholics were nationalists or Republicans. They wanted to be

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<v Speaker 3>a united Ireland so the Island of Ireland would be

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<v Speaker 3>one country, and most Protestants were Unionists or loyalists. They

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to remain part of Great Britain and be governed

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<v Speaker 3>from London.

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<v Speaker 1>Tensions simmered for years of Eventually anti Catholic sentiment started boiling,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in Northern Ireland.

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<v Speaker 3>Catholics were very discriminated against. They had far fewer job opportunities,

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<v Speaker 3>The housing was worse, so they were very overcrowded. They

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<v Speaker 3>couldn't sit on juries for the most part because they

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<v Speaker 3>didn't own property. Schools were divided on religious lines as well,

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<v Speaker 3>so the Civil rights movement grew in the United States,

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<v Speaker 3>and the Catholic population in Northern Ireland gradually began to

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<v Speaker 3>protest about discrimination that they were facing. Two British troops

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<v Speaker 3>had already gone into Northern Ireland to try and keep

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<v Speaker 3>the peace, and then Bloody Sunday in nineteen seventy two

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<v Speaker 3>British paratroopers opened fire on the protesters and killed thirteen

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<v Speaker 3>people and injured fifteen of them.

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<v Speaker 1>After Bloody Sunday, the violence really escalated on both sides.

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<v Speaker 1>People who wanted to end British rule in Northern Ireland

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<v Speaker 1>armed themselves and became active in a group called the

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<v Speaker 1>Irish Republican Army or the IRA.

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<v Speaker 3>That song people always said it was the best recruitment

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<v Speaker 3>thing the IRA could ever have had. Bloody Sunday, I

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<v Speaker 3>think was a real tipping point. It got so much attention,

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<v Speaker 3>not only in Northern Ireland but in England as well,

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<v Speaker 3>these images of the army shooting unarmed protesters.

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<v Speaker 1>The IRA thought of themselves as freedom fighters and they

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<v Speaker 1>used violence to make their points, even planting homemade bombs

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<v Speaker 1>all across Britain. The IRA targeted everything from government tax

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<v Speaker 1>offices to restaurants and pubs. By nineteen seventy four, two

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<v Speaker 1>years after Bloody Sunday, Britain was experiencing an average of

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<v Speaker 1>one attack every three days and British authorities were regularly retaliating.

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<v Speaker 1>The conflict was pretty close to a war, and it

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<v Speaker 1>became known as the Troubles.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean we called it the Troubles. When I was

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<v Speaker 3>growing up, that was all I heard on the news

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<v Speaker 3>was the Troubles. And then the first time I went

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<v Speaker 3>to Belfast, I realized no, actually this was this was

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<v Speaker 3>like a war. They were appalling levels of casualties in

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<v Speaker 3>those days as well, before the Internet, you'd get newsflashes

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<v Speaker 3>on the television, so the screen would go black and

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<v Speaker 3>they'd say we interrupt this program and it would be

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<v Speaker 3>a bomb had gone off for some kind of serious

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<v Speaker 3>situation had taken place. For years, there's been no trash

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<v Speaker 3>comes on public transport in London, just to stop people

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<v Speaker 3>being able to hide bombs there. I was probably about

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<v Speaker 3>eight or nine and my mom had taken me and

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<v Speaker 3>all my cousins and my little brother to buy school

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<v Speaker 3>uniforms and there was this announcement over the tannoy, please

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<v Speaker 3>evacuate the store, and the alarms going off. We just

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<v Speaker 3>thought it was a brilliant adventure because we were a

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<v Speaker 3>bit too little to realize it could be quite dangerous.

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<v Speaker 3>And my poor mum was just trying to grab about

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<v Speaker 3>eight children and get us out of the store, but

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<v Speaker 3>it was all glass at the front, so she didn't

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<v Speaker 3>know which way to take us and which was more dangerous.

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<v Speaker 3>So we just always laughed about how we all had

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<v Speaker 3>nail marks in our arms from where she was digging

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<v Speaker 3>her fingers in and dragging us out by the hair.

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<v Speaker 3>And it seemed like a bit of an adventure at

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<v Speaker 3>the time, but that kind of stuff was quite normal.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's just how normal these bombings had become. The IRA

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<v Speaker 1>had rules and under its rules, IRA members who bombed

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<v Speaker 1>as civilian target had to call British police and warned

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<v Speaker 1>them thirty minutes before the bomb went off. The idea

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<v Speaker 1>was to give enough time for police to evacuate as

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<v Speaker 1>many people as possible without sacrificing the bomb's political point.

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<v Speaker 1>But the British police needed a way to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>these anonymous phone calls were authentic not hoaxes. So the

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<v Speaker 1>IRA and the police agreed on a codeword known only

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<v Speaker 1>to them. If the caller used the codeword, you could

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<v Speaker 1>be sure the bomb threat was real, and that codeword

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<v Speaker 1>was double X. On the day the bombs went off,

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<v Speaker 1>tensions between the IRA and the British were sky high.

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<v Speaker 1>A week before, an IRA member named James McDade was

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<v Speaker 1>killed in Britain when a bomb he was placing went

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<v Speaker 1>off prematurely. IRA sympathizers in Britain were planning a hero's

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<v Speaker 1>funeral with military processions and honor guards, but the British

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<v Speaker 1>authorities quickly passed laws making those plans illegal instead. On

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<v Speaker 1>November twenty first, mcdade's body was flown from Birmingham to

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<v Speaker 1>Belfast for burial. Only hours after the plane care his

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<v Speaker 1>body took off. The bombs went off too. Between the

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<v Speaker 1>timing of the bombings and the use of the double

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<v Speaker 1>X codeword, it didn't take long for the police and

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<v Speaker 1>the public to conclude that the IRA was responsible. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>it's true the anonymous caller hadn't given the usual thirty

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<v Speaker 1>minutes advanced warning, but that fact got ignored as a

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<v Speaker 1>wave of anti Irish anger swept over Britain. The IRA

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<v Speaker 1>issued a denial, but no one listened. The British public

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<v Speaker 1>was terrified and the British authorities were enraged. There was

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<v Speaker 1>a thirst for justice and revenge. Within hours of the bombings,

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<v Speaker 1>police got a tip five Irish men had been seen

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<v Speaker 1>boarding a train that left Birmingham right before the explosion

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<v Speaker 1>at the Mulberry Bush. Four of them had tickets continuing

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<v Speaker 1>on to Belfast in Northern Ireland. Their names were Jerry Hunter,

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<v Speaker 1>Dick Macilkenny, John Walker, Billy Power and Patti Hill. They

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<v Speaker 1>were what the Irish call working class lads who didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of extra money. All five men were Catholic,

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<v Speaker 1>all were married and most of them had kids. None

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<v Speaker 1>of them was affiliated with the IRA. They were headed

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<v Speaker 1>to Belfast to attend James mcdade's funeral, but more out

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<v Speaker 1>of community obligation than for political reasons. For his part,

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<v Speaker 1>Patty Hill borrowed his train fare from a nun. He

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<v Speaker 1>promised to pay her back by doing some painting work

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<v Speaker 1>when he returned, but that debt would soon become the

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<v Speaker 1>least of his problems.

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<v Speaker 4>This episode is sponsored by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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<v Speaker 4>and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a leading international

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<v Speaker 4>law firm. The AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal

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<v Speaker 4>reform the criminal justice system will become a key pillar

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<v Speaker 4>unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono legal assistance to

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<v Speaker 4>the most vulnerable members of our society and in support

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<v Speaker 4>of the public interest, including extensive work in the criminal

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<v Speaker 4>justice area.

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<v Speaker 1>For the first few hours, the train ride was uneventful,

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<v Speaker 1>but when the train pulled up to Morecambe's station on

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<v Speaker 1>the evening of November twenty first, the police were waiting

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<v Speaker 1>a group of irishmen leaving Birmingham, just as the bombs

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<v Speaker 1>went off, seemed suspicious. All five were arrested and brought

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<v Speaker 1>to a nearby police department. That's where a forensic scientists

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<v Speaker 1>tested their hands for traces of nitroglycerin, a bomb ingredient.

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<v Speaker 1>The hands of two men tested positive, the scientists said,

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<v Speaker 1>Billy Power and Patty Hill. That was enough for the police.

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<v Speaker 1>Not just justice, but revenge was suddenly possible. Within a day,

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<v Speaker 1>police arrested a sixth Irishman, Hugh Callahan, who had been

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<v Speaker 1>with the other five before they boarded the train, and

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<v Speaker 1>the interrogations endured by these six men, the Birmingham Six,

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<v Speaker 1>were horrific. It started at the Morcambe Police department with

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 1>John Walker. A group of police took John into a

0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.560
<v Speaker 1>back room where he was beaten, kicked, and burned with

0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.040
<v Speaker 1>a cigarette while other officers held his arms back. The

0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 1>other men heard John's screaming, and then their turns came too.

0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.640
<v Speaker 1>For hours, they were all bloodied and beaten from head

0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.840
<v Speaker 1>to toe. One of them, Billy Power, was kicked over

0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.840
<v Speaker 1>and over on his head, legs, and stomach. He was

0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.480
<v Speaker 1>dragged by his hair and in one of the most

0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.920
<v Speaker 1>sadistic moments of this interrogation, police stretched his scrotum.

0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.440
<v Speaker 2>During these interrogations, at least some of these guys were

0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.120
<v Speaker 2>shown a letter, a letter that said that the torture

0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:55.080
<v Speaker 2>they were experiencing was state sanctioned. It was a letter

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.320
<v Speaker 2>on government letterhead that basically told the police officers, you

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.920
<v Speaker 2>can do what whatever you need to do in order

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.199
<v Speaker 2>to get a confession from these men. To these guys,

0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.720
<v Speaker 2>the message was this pain, this torture is going to

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.199
<v Speaker 2>continue unless you confess.

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 1>By twelve fifty five pm the next day, November twenty second,

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.840
<v Speaker 1>Billy had had enough. He signed a written confession prepared

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 1>by police, admitting guilt in the Birmingham pub bombings. A

0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.240
<v Speaker 1>few hours later, the men were transferred to the custody

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:32.160
<v Speaker 1>of another police unit, the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad,

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:38.960
<v Speaker 1>where the torture continued, beatings, burnings, stress positions, even mock executions.

0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Patty Hill remembers having a pistol shoved into his mouth

0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.280
<v Speaker 1>so brutally that it broke several of his teeth. With

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.520
<v Speaker 1>a cold metal barrel in Patty's mouth, his interrogators slowly

0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 1>counted to three and pulled the trigger three times. They

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.160
<v Speaker 1>did this each time Patty expected to die, only to

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.400
<v Speaker 1>discover that the chamber didn't contain a bo. The thing

0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.320
<v Speaker 1>about torture is that it works, at least if your

0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.560
<v Speaker 1>only goal is to find a scapegoat. On November twenty third,

0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:12.479
<v Speaker 1>Hugh Callahan, Dick mckilkenny, and John Walker signed false confessions.

0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Like Billy, they claimed that they were IRA members and

0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.960
<v Speaker 1>that they'd planted both pub bombs. Somehow, Patty Hill and

0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Jerry Hunter were holdouts. They refused to sign confessions despite

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.120
<v Speaker 1>the torture. Police would later claim that Patty and Jerry

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:31.640
<v Speaker 1>verbally confessed, which Patty denies. The four written confessions were

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.680
<v Speaker 1>short and virtually detail free. In fact, one of the

0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.320
<v Speaker 1>only details included was wrong. The confessions claimed that the

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.080
<v Speaker 1>bombs were left at the pubs in white plastic bags,

0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.720
<v Speaker 1>but forensic analysis showed the bags had been leather. It

0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.280
<v Speaker 1>didn't matter. Four of the Birmingham six had confessed, and

0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.560
<v Speaker 1>all of them had been beaten within an inch of

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.160
<v Speaker 1>their lives. Revenge, it seemed, had been achieved.

0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.120
<v Speaker 2>The last thing that you want interrogators to do when

0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:02.080
<v Speaker 2>they go into an interrogation room is to be guided

0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.920
<v Speaker 2>by a sense of vengeance, because what's going to happen

0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.480
<v Speaker 2>is the interrogator is going to do everything in his

0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:15.280
<v Speaker 2>power to quench that thirst for revenge, and the interrogation

0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.560
<v Speaker 2>no longer becomes about the truth.

0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.360
<v Speaker 1>After the confessions, the six were charged with murder and

0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:25.440
<v Speaker 1>transferred to Winston Green Prison, where guards continued the beatings.

0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.480
<v Speaker 1>When the Birmingham Six were finally brought to court a

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 1>week after the bombings, they'd been brutalized from head to foot.

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Patty Hill's wife was in the courtroom with their two

0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.680
<v Speaker 1>year old son. When the little boy saw his dad's injuries,

0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.000
<v Speaker 1>he was so traumatized that he needed medical attention. But

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.480
<v Speaker 1>authorities told the judge that they had done nothing wrong.

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.200
<v Speaker 1>The men had been attacked, they said, by other inmates.

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.080
<v Speaker 2>We've seen excuses like that over and over again, even

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>in the United States. When somebody is battered, the police

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.800
<v Speaker 2>changed the narrative from the beginning. They either blame it

0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.160
<v Speaker 2>on somebody falling down the stairs, or they blame it

0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.879
<v Speaker 2>on other inmates. But when these men appeared in court

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 2>for the first time, everybody knew what had happened to them.

0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.400
<v Speaker 2>It was clear that they had been through an ordeal.

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 1>That ordeal was far from over. Based on the confessions

0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 1>and the nitroglycerin evidence. The Birmingham Six stood trial on

0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 1>June ninth, nineteen seventy five. A defense expert testified that

0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.679
<v Speaker 1>the explosives testing had been faulty, and defense witnesses pointed

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.480
<v Speaker 1>out that no explosives had been found at any of

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 1>the men's homes, But in short order that Birmingham Six

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:41.080
<v Speaker 1>were convicted. Each man was sentenced to twenty one life sentences,

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.320
<v Speaker 1>one for every person who died, and the people of Britain,

0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 1>all of whom thought it could have been them inside

0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:54.360
<v Speaker 1>those pubs. They believed that justice had been done from

0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 1>behind bars. The Birmingham Six fought their convictions like furies

0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:02.359
<v Speaker 1>and insisted the authorities acknowledge they'd been tortured, but for

0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 1>a while, it looked like the entire system was lined

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.919
<v Speaker 1>up against them. Eventually, fourteen prison officers were charged with

0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.639
<v Speaker 1>assaulting the six, but despite plenty of evidence, those officers

0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.399
<v Speaker 1>were all acquitted at trial. The six also tried to

0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:20.879
<v Speaker 1>soothe their torturers, but a judge dismissed their lawsuit in

0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.280
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty and he did it for reasons that you

0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.720
<v Speaker 1>have to hear to believe. Just think what it would

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.120
<v Speaker 1>mean for Britain's legal system. The judge explained, if these

0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.560
<v Speaker 1>men were allowed to prove they'd been tortured, it would

0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.520
<v Speaker 1>mean that the police were guilty of perjury, that they

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.920
<v Speaker 1>were guilty of violence and threats, and that the convictions

0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:44.680
<v Speaker 1>were erroneous. That was such an appalling vista. He declared,

0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.360
<v Speaker 1>that every sensible person would say, it cannot be right

0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.439
<v Speaker 1>that this lawsuit should go any further.

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, the appalling vista here is this paternalistic attitude

0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:59.000
<v Speaker 2>of this judge that the public can't handle the truth,

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.119
<v Speaker 2>he said, saying that if this torture were allowed to

0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.679
<v Speaker 2>be seen by them, if this injustice were allowed to

0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.399
<v Speaker 2>be acknowledged, the entire system would crumble. The irony is

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:15.359
<v Speaker 2>that by suppressing the truth, by putting these allegations in

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>evidence of torture in the closet, he is breaking the

0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:25.120
<v Speaker 2>very system he claims to want to protect. Where are

0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.800
<v Speaker 2>these men supposed to get justice if not in a

0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:29.600
<v Speaker 2>court of law.

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.640
<v Speaker 1>But while the court system closed its eyes to this injustice,

0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.679
<v Speaker 1>the world didn't. Journalist Chris Mullen, who would go on

0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.879
<v Speaker 1>to become a member of Parliament, investigated the bombings with

0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.040
<v Speaker 1>fresh eyes in nineteen eighty five, he retained two scientists

0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.960
<v Speaker 1>who debunked the test that supposedly had found nitroglycerin on

0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Patty and Billy's hands. A police officer also publicly confirmed

0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.320
<v Speaker 1>that the Birmingham Six had been beaten by their interrogators.

0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 1>The next year, Chris Mullen published a book about the

0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.640
<v Speaker 1>case called Error of Judgment. In the book, Mullen described

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.520
<v Speaker 1>meeting IRA members who admitted they were involved in the bombings,

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 1>although he didn't disclose their names, and Mullen explained something

0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.359
<v Speaker 1>that had been a mystery for years, why the double

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 1>X collar hadn't given the full thirty minutes warning before

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.760
<v Speaker 1>the first explosion. Turns out, the bombers meant to give

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 1>police thirty minutes, but the telephone booth they'd planned to

0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.919
<v Speaker 1>use had been damaged by vandals. By the time they

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.760
<v Speaker 1>found another phone, only six minutes were left. The warning

0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 1>system wasn't as fool proof as they thought. That was

0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.879
<v Speaker 1>how these bombings became one of the deadliest mass murders

0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:55.200
<v Speaker 1>in modern British history. In nineteen eighty seven, advocates, including

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.359
<v Speaker 1>renowned civil rights lawyer Gareth Pearce, convinced a court to

0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:03.000
<v Speaker 1>re examine the convictions of the Birmingham Six. At the hearing,

0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.600
<v Speaker 1>police officers testified about watching their colleagues torture the six men.

0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.439
<v Speaker 1>Evidence was also introduced about a handwritten chart that had

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.240
<v Speaker 1>been found in the police station. The interrogators apparently used

0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 1>this chart to line up the facts in the different

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.680
<v Speaker 1>men's statements and make sure they matched. Of course, those

0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.520
<v Speaker 1>facts were actually lies.

0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:27.240
<v Speaker 2>The discovery of this chart basically proved what the men

0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.919
<v Speaker 2>had been saying all along, that we didn't confess to

0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:36.320
<v Speaker 2>these crimes. These were stories that were scripted by the police,

0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.680
<v Speaker 2>and we were tortured into saying what they wanted us

0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:41.439
<v Speaker 2>to say.

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.919
<v Speaker 1>But despite this new evidence, relief was denied and the

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.880
<v Speaker 1>case stalled for four years until a second hearing was granted.

0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.000
<v Speaker 1>There new evidence was introduced that further undermined the nitroglycerin

0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.800
<v Speaker 1>testing on Patty and Billy's hands. But what finally tipped

0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.200
<v Speaker 1>the balance, as Gareth Pierce later wrote it, it was

0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:04.679
<v Speaker 1>the simplest of stupidities. Previously, police had testified that the

0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.320
<v Speaker 1>men confessed freely, and that after they confessed, their stories

0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:12.280
<v Speaker 1>never changed. But Pierce had found the notebooks on which

0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.879
<v Speaker 1>the men's confessions had been written, sure enough. As the

0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:20.280
<v Speaker 1>police wrote, edited, and rewrote the false confessions on notebook pages,

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:25.920
<v Speaker 1>their pens left indentations on the pages. Underneath those indentations

0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:29.520
<v Speaker 1>revealed how the stories had evolved and been altered, and

0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:31.879
<v Speaker 1>how the police's testimony had been false.

0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:37.200
<v Speaker 2>These indentations were like track changes, you know, they were

0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:42.119
<v Speaker 2>imprints on paper that were left because the police officers

0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.199
<v Speaker 2>were writing and rewriting so furiously that they left a

0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.080
<v Speaker 2>mark on the paper. Evidence that the confessions were scripted

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:55.280
<v Speaker 2>is evidence of police contamination. That the story didn't come

0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 2>from the defendants, it came from police officers.

0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 1>All six convictions were declared unsafe that's a British term,

0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:08.120
<v Speaker 1>and thrown out. And on November twenty first, nineteen ninety one,

0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 1>the Birmingham Six walked out of prison after sixteen years

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:13.880
<v Speaker 1>behind bars.

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.040
<v Speaker 3>Still makes the hairs on the back of your neck

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.640
<v Speaker 3>stands on end, doesn't it. I remember it really vividly,

0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:22.320
<v Speaker 3>that image of them walking out of the court onto

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.760
<v Speaker 3>the street, and builders hanging off scaffolding from the buildings

0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:30.679
<v Speaker 3>across the road, people packed outside, these hundreds and hundreds

0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:34.080
<v Speaker 3>of people, TV crews from around the world, and then

0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.520
<v Speaker 3>that amazing image of them all coming out linked hands,

0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:40.800
<v Speaker 3>holding them above their heads, with Chris Mullin, the journalist

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:43.520
<v Speaker 3>who had campaigned for them, and then Paddy grabbing the

0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.919
<v Speaker 3>microphone and shouting how he'd spent sixteen years in prison

0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:50.240
<v Speaker 3>for a crime he didn't commit. It was that really

0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:53.040
<v Speaker 3>raw emotion, that was just so shocking.

0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:56.960
<v Speaker 5>The police told us from the start that they knew

0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:58.000
<v Speaker 5>we hadn't done it.

0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:00.560
<v Speaker 2>They told me they didn't care do it.

0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 5>They told us that we were selected. I'm not going

0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.360
<v Speaker 5>to frame us just to keep the people in their happy.

0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:15.240
<v Speaker 5>Let's want a soul abid pics justice. I don't think

0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:18.639
<v Speaker 5>them people enough got the intelligence, No, the honest in

0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:21.440
<v Speaker 5>his spell award, never mind dispenses.

0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:26.439
<v Speaker 1>The six won their freedom years ago, but even today

0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:31.040
<v Speaker 1>real justice still seems illusory. There's never been a formal

0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:35.560
<v Speaker 1>declaration of innocence or exoneration. Even the court decision throwing

0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 1>out their convictions still made veiled references to their possible guilt.

0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:42.919
<v Speaker 1>The closest the Birmingham Six has come to justice was

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:45.960
<v Speaker 1>when they won a defamation lawsuit after a member of

0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:50.639
<v Speaker 1>Parliament called them guilty. The British government has compensated them financially,

0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:53.879
<v Speaker 1>but the amount doesn't come close to repaying them for

0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.639
<v Speaker 1>days of torture and sixteen lost years.

0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:01.719
<v Speaker 3>A psychiatrist assessed when they put in their claim for compensation,

0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:05.000
<v Speaker 3>and he said they had post traumatic stress disorder that

0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:06.840
<v Speaker 3>was on the level of somebody who had been in

0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.159
<v Speaker 3>a war zone. I think what they'd been through was

0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:12.360
<v Speaker 3>exceptional given the violence that they'd suffered, as well as

0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.160
<v Speaker 3>the miscarriage of justice. I mean, they had been tortured,

0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:18.119
<v Speaker 3>they'd had to fight and fight all the time in

0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:22.480
<v Speaker 3>prison for their own safety and fight to prove their innocence.

0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:25.520
<v Speaker 3>If you've had that level of adrenaline running through your

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:29.160
<v Speaker 3>system for sixteen years, that doesn't just disappear when you

0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:30.000
<v Speaker 3>walk out of court.

0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:33.480
<v Speaker 1>And as for the bombing, it's never been definitively solved.

0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 1>In fact, over the past few years, there's been an

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:40.440
<v Speaker 1>ongoing inquest in Birmingham to reinvestigate what happened that day.

0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:43.919
<v Speaker 1>For years, Chris Mullen refused to name the men he

0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:49.040
<v Speaker 1>said had accepted responsibility, citing his journalistic obligation to protect sources.

0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:54.160
<v Speaker 1>Right before the inquest, Mullen finally published an article identifying

0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:58.200
<v Speaker 1>two former IRA members who are now dead for its part.

0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 1>The IRA has never a fish admitted responsibility for the bombings.

0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:06.360
<v Speaker 1>At the inquest, one former IRA member, identified only as

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:09.879
<v Speaker 1>Witness O, named the same perpetrators that Mullin had named,

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.679
<v Speaker 1>plus two others. Another witness testified that the high body

0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:17.440
<v Speaker 1>count was accidental and described the bombings as an IRA

0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:21.600
<v Speaker 1>operation that went badly wrong in some ways, though the

0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 1>system has tried to learn from its mistakes.

0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.240
<v Speaker 3>If you were writing a history of the criminal justice

0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:29.359
<v Speaker 3>system in this country, the Birmingham Six is a real

0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:33.280
<v Speaker 3>tipping point. It wasn't about the politics of Northern Ireland.

0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:36.240
<v Speaker 3>It was about the criminal justice system has done something

0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:38.760
<v Speaker 3>terribly wrong. So there was a real sense at the

0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:42.199
<v Speaker 3>time that the system was in crisis. People couldn't have

0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:44.800
<v Speaker 3>confidence in the system because there were so many wrongful

0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:48.040
<v Speaker 3>convictions happening. And on the day the Birmingham Six were

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:51.520
<v Speaker 3>released from prison, the Home Secretary stood up in Parliament

0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:54.119
<v Speaker 3>and said, I'm ordering a commission to look into the

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:55.320
<v Speaker 3>criminal justice system.

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Based on that commission's recommendation, the UK created the Criminal

0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:02.119
<v Speaker 1>Cases Review Commission in nineteen ninety seven.

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:06.439
<v Speaker 3>The Criminal Cases Review Commission is independent, but it's funded

0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:09.680
<v Speaker 3>by the government to investigate cases likeness and to see

0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 3>where mischaracters of justice have happened. The CCRC isn't perfect,

0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:17.680
<v Speaker 3>but it's a remarkable organization. It's one of the few

0:27:17.720 --> 0:27:20.520
<v Speaker 3>places in the world where, to be honest, the government

0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 3>has been big enough to say things do go wrong

0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:25.680
<v Speaker 3>and we need to create a way of putting this right,

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:28.480
<v Speaker 3>and every country should have one.

0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:31.560
<v Speaker 1>In addition, the UK has adopted reforms around the way

0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:35.680
<v Speaker 1>suspects are interrogated, outlying not only physical torture but also

0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:39.600
<v Speaker 1>other tools of coercion like lying to suspects. These are

0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.480
<v Speaker 1>reforms that we should be enacting in the United States.

0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I always say that the UK is thirty five years

0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.120
<v Speaker 2>ahead of where we are in the United States as

0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:54.359
<v Speaker 2>far as interrogation reforms. They don't allow any confessions to

0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:59.159
<v Speaker 2>be admitted into evidence that are obtained by oppression, and

0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:04.479
<v Speaker 2>oppression does didn't mean just physical torture. It also means

0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:10.040
<v Speaker 2>psychological torture and the use of tactics which are likely

0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:15.680
<v Speaker 2>to render a confession unreliable. All of these reforms are

0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:21.040
<v Speaker 2>aimed at getting the truth and not just getting a confession.

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:24.400
<v Speaker 1>The British legal system wasn't the only one to initiate

0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:27.960
<v Speaker 1>meaningful change. Patty Hill used the compensation he got for

0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:31.679
<v Speaker 1>his wrongful conviction to start a nonprofit, the Miscarriages of

0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:35.720
<v Speaker 1>Justice Organization. Its mission is to help people recently released

0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.040
<v Speaker 1>from prison to get back on their feet and to

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.400
<v Speaker 1>help them handle the pain and anger they'll probably carry

0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:42.240
<v Speaker 1>for a long time.

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:47.440
<v Speaker 2>There's this incredible caring side to Patty. He talks about

0:28:47.480 --> 0:28:51.160
<v Speaker 2>when people get out of prison, many of them seek

0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:54.120
<v Speaker 2>him out, and at least pre COVID, he would welcome

0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:57.400
<v Speaker 2>them in his home. And those are the people that

0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:01.520
<v Speaker 2>give him the greatest comfort in life because they shared

0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:05.160
<v Speaker 2>at least some of the experience that he had when

0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:06.040
<v Speaker 2>he was in prison.

0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:09.120
<v Speaker 1>You know, when I went back to Scotland last year,

0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:10.960
<v Speaker 1>I went to visit Patti Hill.

0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:14.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm so sad that I missed that opportunity.

0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:18.160
<v Speaker 1>He's an incredible man, but also he is angry still

0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:22.520
<v Speaker 1>and committed through that anger to improving the system. All

0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:26.960
<v Speaker 1>he wants to do is remember what happened to him

0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:32.040
<v Speaker 1>and then use that memory as fuel to change the system.

0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 1>For Patty, all of those physical wounds have long since healed,

0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:40.760
<v Speaker 1>but the emotional wounds and the drive that he has

0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:43.240
<v Speaker 1>to make sure this doesn't happen again. Those are there forever.

0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:47.440
<v Speaker 2>We see that time and again with people who are exonerated.

0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:51.000
<v Speaker 2>They want to tell their story. They want the world

0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:54.880
<v Speaker 2>to know what happened to them, so it doesn't happen again.

0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:01.320
<v Speaker 6>Hello, Hello, Patty Laura. How are you.

0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:02.240
<v Speaker 5>Doing, Patty?

0:30:02.480 --> 0:30:03.200
<v Speaker 6>I'm doing well?

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh good. So it was a year ago when I

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.320
<v Speaker 1>saw you in Glasgow at the Mojo offices.

0:30:12.160 --> 0:30:12.560
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:14.800
<v Speaker 1>When you work with families of other people who are

0:30:14.800 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 1>in prison, is there anything to say to them to

0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 1>give them hope?

0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.640
<v Speaker 6>I tell their families they're gonna have good moods, They're

0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:24.200
<v Speaker 6>gonna have bad moods, you know, And I tell them

0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:27.440
<v Speaker 6>you're not on your own. We can lessen the load

0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:30.480
<v Speaker 6>in any way. That's the main thing, you know. You

0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:33.719
<v Speaker 6>often hear that old cliche time is a great healer?

0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:35.080
<v Speaker 1>Is it true?

0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:39.640
<v Speaker 6>Believe me, time does not heal nothing. The only thing

0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:43.600
<v Speaker 6>you can hope for is that every day, please God,

0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:45.800
<v Speaker 6>you run down with a little bit better.

0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.360
<v Speaker 1>Do you have a support system people to help you

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 1>on those bad days?

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 6>When I meet up with some of the guys from

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:56.680
<v Speaker 6>the Gium and one of the pubs and moving be

0:30:56.840 --> 0:30:59.760
<v Speaker 6>there for five six hours, that's when the.

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:03.280
<v Speaker 1>You can be yourself, all yourself.

0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 6>Maybe exactly, yeah, yeah, you have a good time.

0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:17.720
<v Speaker 1>And that's the story of the Birmingham Six. Join us

0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 1>next week when we'll tell you the story of a

0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Virginia fisherman who got caught in a net of injustice.

0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.560
<v Speaker 1>He didn't give up false confession during his interrogation, but

0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.000
<v Speaker 1>the words he did say were still enough to put

0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:36.160
<v Speaker 1>him in prison for thirty one years. Wrongful Conviction, False

0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:39.720
<v Speaker 1>Confessions is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:43.680
<v Speaker 1>association with Signal Company Number one Special thanks to our

0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:48.280
<v Speaker 1>executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wardis. Our production team

0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:51.600
<v Speaker 1>is headed by senior producer a Pope along with producers

0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 1>Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane. Our show is mixed by

0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is our intrepid intern. Our music

0:31:59.040 --> 0:32:01.960
<v Speaker 1>was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow me on

0:32:02.120 --> 0:32:05.080
<v Speaker 1>Instagram or Twitter at Laura and I Wrider, and.

0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 2>You can follow me on Twitter at Sdrizzen.

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:12.520
<v Speaker 1>For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com.

0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Be sure to follow the show on Instagram at Wrongful

0:32:15.840 --> 0:32:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Conviction on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter

0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 1>at wrong Conviction