WEBVTT -  Climate Change Despondency is Solvable

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey listeners. This special episode of the show was

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<v Speaker 1>produced with support from Walmart. This is solvable. I'm Ronald

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<v Speaker 1>Young Jr. Climate challenges are pressing down with more urgency

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<v Speaker 1>than ever before. In order to hold temperature increases back

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<v Speaker 1>one and a half or two degrees to meet the

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<v Speaker 1>temperature targets set in Paris at the Paris Climate Accords,

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<v Speaker 1>we have until twenty thirty to cut emissions in half.

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<v Speaker 1>Climate experts say that'll be tough, but it might stave

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<v Speaker 1>off complete disaster. That kind of hard truth can feel crushing,

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<v Speaker 1>which is exactly why we need to work actively, keep talking, reflecting,

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<v Speaker 1>and solving the greatest problem we've ever faced on a

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<v Speaker 1>global scale. Here at Pushkin, we're lucky enough to have

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<v Speaker 1>one of the best minds around when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>making observations and looking to the future. Malcolm Gladwell, So

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<v Speaker 1>today we have a solvable episode that is a little

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<v Speaker 1>out of the ordinary, and I know your guys are

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<v Speaker 1>used to hearing things out of the ordinary in this

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<v Speaker 1>time period we've been in. But Malcolm and I talked

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<v Speaker 1>together and pursue a few thought experiments about where we

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<v Speaker 1>might be headed and who could take us there. We

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<v Speaker 1>discussed the power of the people and the power of

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<v Speaker 1>businesses to bring real and rapid change, and even with

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<v Speaker 1>the topic as heavy as this ever growing global catastrophe,

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<v Speaker 1>somehow there's a lot of laughter in this episode too.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's our conversation. Mister Gladwell, Yes, welcome back to Solvable.

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<v Speaker 1>How does it feel to be back? It made me

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<v Speaker 1>feel like I went, you know, to a country far

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<v Speaker 1>away on a mission that took me away from friends

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<v Speaker 1>and family for many years. I'm being released from that.

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<v Speaker 1>But the point is it does feel. It feels good

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<v Speaker 1>to be back. That's great. I'm sure some listeners were

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<v Speaker 1>very surprised to wake up one day and have me on.

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<v Speaker 1>They were like, wait a minute, that's not very similar.

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<v Speaker 1>Very similar. People can get us confused oftentimes in the

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<v Speaker 1>street everyone says that, hey, didn't you write blink. I

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<v Speaker 1>think listeners are happy to take out an upgrade. That's

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<v Speaker 1>very kind of you to say, very kind of you

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<v Speaker 1>to say. So. You know, I recently listened to one

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<v Speaker 1>of your episodes of Revisionist History, and it's the one

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<v Speaker 1>where you're riding around in the Waymo those electric vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>that are autonomous in Phoenix, and I remember one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that that struck me there was how effective

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<v Speaker 1>it'll be actually stopping climate change. Do you consider that

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<v Speaker 1>or do you think that we're kind of just hey,

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<v Speaker 1>this is cool, we're an electric car, Like this is like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, this is the future. Yeah. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if you know this, but I'm a car guy. Really yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I care all more about cars to almost say anything else. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>So I've been watching this very closely. What's interesting is

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<v Speaker 1>the change over to your cars is happening way quicker

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<v Speaker 1>than people thought, Like it's been in the background for

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<v Speaker 1>ten years or whatever more. But you know, right now,

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<v Speaker 1>electric cars make up maybe one percent of global fleet.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's tiny, but all of a sudden, it's

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<v Speaker 1>possible to see three years out and to imagine that

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<v Speaker 1>that number would be maybe being a bit aggressive. But

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<v Speaker 1>there are a whole lot of people who don't believe

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<v Speaker 1>they will ever buy a gasoline powered car. Again, I

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<v Speaker 1>recently bought a new car, and I absolutely bought a hybrid,

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<v Speaker 1>and I as I was driving it, I'm like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the next one I probably will get will probably be electric.

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<v Speaker 1>I know I'm probably never gonna get a Tesla, but

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<v Speaker 1>I'm telling you, if one of the major car companies

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<v Speaker 1>say that there could be a test in your future.

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<v Speaker 1>Those guys are cool with their with their insane mode

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<v Speaker 1>and all that stuff that go the bells and hoots

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<v Speaker 1>that come with that crisis mode. Yet but no, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sitting there thinking about it, and I'm just like, I

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<v Speaker 1>know that there's going to be a point in the

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<v Speaker 1>future where I get, you know, probably an all electric car. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>we haven't seen the model T forward point where it's

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<v Speaker 1>just like here it is, everybody can afford it, everybody

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<v Speaker 1>goes get one, and we just you know, easily make

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<v Speaker 1>the switch. Yeah, there's been this really interesting evolution in

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<v Speaker 1>what people think of as their responsibility, what parts should

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<v Speaker 1>we play in addressing this ongoing crisis, And a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of that has to do with our perception of what

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<v Speaker 1>the crisis is. You know, there was I think there

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<v Speaker 1>was weirdly a lot more fatalism about climate change. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what do you what are you going to

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<v Speaker 1>do if it's driven by fossil fuel use and you

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<v Speaker 1>look around and you literally can't do anything, can't heat

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<v Speaker 1>your home, can't drive to work, can't fly to visit

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<v Speaker 1>your parents without burning fossil fuels. Then yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you do? You just sort of shrug and

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<v Speaker 1>say it's inevitable, it's coming. But now I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>there's just been a kind of shift in that thinking.

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<v Speaker 1>The inevitability that I feel now is that we have

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<v Speaker 1>to change. That's like I feel like, so for me,

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<v Speaker 1>like if we just and I know, I'll keep using

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<v Speaker 1>the example of the electric car, but for me it'll

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<v Speaker 1>always be I know, eventually I'm going to get an

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<v Speaker 1>electric car, so that that feels inevitable to me. But

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<v Speaker 1>when you talk about the shift, what do you mean.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the most important is the number of people

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<v Speaker 1>who are taking steps to do something about climate change

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<v Speaker 1>is growing, and the kinds of people is changing. So

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<v Speaker 1>you had a situation twenty five years ago where it was,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, my dad who was a huge environmentalist in

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<v Speaker 1>the seventies, and you know, he would do things like

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<v Speaker 1>chop down wood with an axe and not a chainsaw

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<v Speaker 1>because you didn't want to use gastling. Okay, And as

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<v Speaker 1>I and one of my one of my podcasts, I

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<v Speaker 1>talked about how my mom didn't want to use the

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<v Speaker 1>dryer because it used too a chenergy, so she would

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<v Speaker 1>hang her clothes outside even in the middle of a

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<v Speaker 1>Canadian winter. That was kind of phase one. It was

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<v Speaker 1>like weirdos like my parents doing quirky things. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you're never gonna get anywhere with Joyce and Graham Gladwell,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, cutting down trees with axes and hanging her

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<v Speaker 1>close outside. But if it's I, it's no longer individual.

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<v Speaker 1>If it's no longer weirdos in rural Ontario and it's companies,

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<v Speaker 1>large corporations or governments, then you begin to say, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>a car company is willing to invest ten billion dollars

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<v Speaker 1>in building a fleet of electric vehicles like General Motors

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<v Speaker 1>is doing right now, then you say, okay, that that's different. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>When I think about my own circle and I think

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<v Speaker 1>about my own area of influence, my parents robed cr

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<v Speaker 1>Peggy Lee. You know, for a while, I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>yalk out of a cycle recycling? Did it there for cycling?

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<v Speaker 1>Why are you recycling? By Dad's like sudden, the recycling

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<v Speaker 1>isn't even and I'm like, now you gotta recycle, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just like so they start recycling and the recycled

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<v Speaker 1>truck would barely show up. They wouldn't show up on time.

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<v Speaker 1>So I felt like I failed when it came to

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<v Speaker 1>converting one set of people. And at the time, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the focus was individual responsibility. So here I am trying

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<v Speaker 1>to convert as many individuals as possible. But now we've

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<v Speaker 1>shifted into more urgency. We need to address this on

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<v Speaker 1>a larger scale, Like we need military level, national level,

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<v Speaker 1>corporate level, We need bigger involvement in order to actually

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<v Speaker 1>make the changes than we want to see. Yeah. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>during the Trump administration, there was a hearing on Capitol Hill.

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<v Speaker 1>We're a very senior Pentagon official testified before Congress. But

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<v Speaker 1>how there were so many military bases that were, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>near water, and they had so many valuable things that

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<v Speaker 1>were vulnerable to rising seas or even to flooding or

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<v Speaker 1>all those kinds of things that they were undergoing to study.

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<v Speaker 1>They had to kind of like reconfigure all these military

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<v Speaker 1>bases around the world. So you have like a senior

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<v Speaker 1>hardcore military guy talking about climate change, not in this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of ideological way, but in the kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>I got, you know, a nuclear tipped warhead that I

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<v Speaker 1>really don't want that thing submerged in water next time

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<v Speaker 1>there's a hurricane, And like that, I remember listening, I

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<v Speaker 1>was thinking, man, that's different, that's a whole new conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>There's also this idea that you know, we've been talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the problem for a long time, and there's a

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<v Speaker 1>point at which talking about the problem repeatedly I think

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<v Speaker 1>starts to backfire. Climate change is a word about our

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<v Speaker 1>global warming, well words about the problem, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening, you know that's really encouraging me is that

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<v Speaker 1>now people are talking much more about solutions. Yeah. And

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<v Speaker 1>I love that you're plugging solvable unsolvable, because that is

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<v Speaker 1>what we do here. We talk solutions. We actually talked

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<v Speaker 1>with Rachel Stroyer on an episode of Solvable and we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about regenerative agriculture and specifically about using perennials over

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<v Speaker 1>annuals because perennials come back every year, they're harder to kill,

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<v Speaker 1>and they you don't deplete the soil in the ways

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<v Speaker 1>that you do when you use annuals. So, thinking forward

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<v Speaker 1>to the future, how can we use regenerative concepts to

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<v Speaker 1>think bigger about addressing climate change? Yeah, yeah, Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>concept of regeneration as it's used in agriculture think beyond

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the growing season. It's right in front of you.

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<v Speaker 1>You can also use that same concept in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>how businesses operate. For example, I did I did a

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<v Speaker 1>in an episode of Revisions History this year on cold

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<v Speaker 1>water tide without producturing Gamble. They had a massive audit

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<v Speaker 1>that they did of their carbon footprint producing tide and

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<v Speaker 1>really a carbon footprint of a load of laundry and

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<v Speaker 1>trying to figure out what are all the components that

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<v Speaker 1>go into the environmental consequences of doing your laundry. You

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<v Speaker 1>know everyone realizes used to be when you bought tide pods,

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<v Speaker 1>they came in a hard plastic container. Now more and

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<v Speaker 1>molar in soft plastic bags. Yep. They ran the numbers

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<v Speaker 1>and they thought they realized, oh, the carbon footprint and

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<v Speaker 1>putting it in a plastic bag is a lot lower

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<v Speaker 1>than in a hard plastic tub. And every one of

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<v Speaker 1>the plants that produce tide is powered by wind energy

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<v Speaker 1>because they realize, oh, our manufacturing plants are in places

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<v Speaker 1>where you know, wind energy and other sources of renewable

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<v Speaker 1>power can do the trick. That kind of that's regeneration.

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<v Speaker 1>They're thinking about building a process of making your tie

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<v Speaker 1>that either your laundry with that is sustainable. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 1>the same kind of principle that we were talking about

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<v Speaker 1>earlier in agriculture. What's really interesting is just how many

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<v Speaker 1>corporations are engaging in that kind of very focused analysis

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<v Speaker 1>of all of the steps that go into what they do.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it sounds very optimistic. I mean, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think it sounds like we can maybe we can count

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<v Speaker 1>on some corporations. I felt hard that you run you're

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<v Speaker 1>such a you're such like an old school like you

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<v Speaker 1>can like you can take your plaqueer to go and

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<v Speaker 1>pick it somewhere after this is over. Like, come on, man,

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<v Speaker 1>you saw that you you saw that happening in me

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<v Speaker 1>as I was attempting to even hilarious. I No, corporations

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<v Speaker 1>are run by people like you and me. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>like by people who are who are also simultaneously citizens

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<v Speaker 1>of the world, who who drive home in a terrible rainstorm,

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<v Speaker 1>and who you know, who who like observe around them

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<v Speaker 1>all the same things we're observing. So it's not surprising

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<v Speaker 1>to me that they take those same ideas and impressions

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<v Speaker 1>to their off Yes, I mean that goes back to

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<v Speaker 1>what we were talking about earlier, which is that the

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<v Speaker 1>nature of our understanding of the problem is changed. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not this It used to be this kind of

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<v Speaker 1>abstraction and now we're interesting. No, no no, no, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>making everything weird, yeah, and sort of scary. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>we can't know. We can't. You can't hide from it

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<v Speaker 1>by moving to north in Canada. Again, I say it

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<v Speaker 1>as a Canadian. That's always my my backup plane is

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<v Speaker 1>always to go home. Oh. There, there's gratification in knowing

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<v Speaker 1>that corporations now do have instructions on how to move forward,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's still I still feel sub sub sub sense

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<v Speaker 1>of the kids say saltiness, Now what it what it

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<v Speaker 1>thinks of, like what it took to actually get corporations

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<v Speaker 1>to change. But I am excited that they are changing.

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<v Speaker 1>That is helpful. Yeah. The other limiting factor on corporate

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<v Speaker 1>evolvement in a lot of this is technology. So if

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<v Speaker 1>you think about the airlines for the longest time, I

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<v Speaker 1>am sure there were many people who were involved in

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<v Speaker 1>the senior leadership of airlines who recognize the incredible contribution

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<v Speaker 1>airlines make to climate change, But their questions, well, what

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<v Speaker 1>is our what choice do we have? There's no you know,

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<v Speaker 1>where we've put sixty years or no more thnant it,

0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:44.836
<v Speaker 1>you know, seventy five years of research into the jet engine.

0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:47.436
<v Speaker 1>I don't have an alternative that I can turn to.

0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:51.596
<v Speaker 1>And what's interesting is you're finally starting to see a

0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:55.476
<v Speaker 1>real conversation about what a technological alternative to a jet

0:13:55.516 --> 0:13:59.196
<v Speaker 1>engine might be. You know, could it be hydrogen? Could

0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:03.796
<v Speaker 1>is it possible to fly electric planes? Maybe not, maybe

0:14:03.836 --> 0:14:06.676
<v Speaker 1>not commercial airliners, but like small, I'm not going to

0:14:06.716 --> 0:14:13.156
<v Speaker 1>be the first. That's exactly the kind of thing that

0:14:13.196 --> 0:14:15.796
<v Speaker 1>discourages them. You should be saying, Ron And if you

0:14:15.916 --> 0:14:18.716
<v Speaker 1>do a plane that doesn't have a conventional jet engine,

0:14:18.876 --> 0:14:25.276
<v Speaker 1>I will be the First's my number call me. Look, Malcolm,

0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:27.316
<v Speaker 1>if you want to get on first. I'm like, I like,

0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:29.996
<v Speaker 1>there's just something about being first anything that I'm just like, oh,

0:14:30.436 --> 0:14:33.076
<v Speaker 1>I'll be a second. I will totally be first. I

0:14:33.156 --> 0:14:37.356
<v Speaker 1>love that. I'm I'm all there, funny like they're there.

0:14:38.116 --> 0:14:41.116
<v Speaker 1>If you kind of like root around in the kind

0:14:41.156 --> 0:14:44.476
<v Speaker 1>of popular literature on on aviation right now, people are

0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:46.876
<v Speaker 1>starting to talk about this. That's a function of the

0:14:46.876 --> 0:14:49.836
<v Speaker 1>fact that the technology is catching up. That's another sort

0:14:49.836 --> 0:15:02.036
<v Speaker 1>of exciting difference. What do you want to see next?

0:15:02.516 --> 0:15:05.076
<v Speaker 1>From corporations, like, do you think there are actionable steps

0:15:05.476 --> 0:15:09.516
<v Speaker 1>in the world of doing, which is what the corporate

0:15:09.516 --> 0:15:13.076
<v Speaker 1>world is, that notion of whether something whether it's a

0:15:13.156 --> 0:15:15.596
<v Speaker 1>case to be made for something right. They're in the

0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:19.476
<v Speaker 1>business of making a case for action or inaction, and

0:15:19.556 --> 0:15:23.276
<v Speaker 1>so having something concrete to say this is a direction

0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:25.876
<v Speaker 1>you can go in. That's also what's sort of new

0:15:25.956 --> 0:15:30.756
<v Speaker 1>and interesting and exciting about the direction the climate change

0:15:31.036 --> 0:15:34.756
<v Speaker 1>debate has gone. Unlike those of us who don't work

0:15:34.796 --> 0:15:39.676
<v Speaker 1>for big corporations, these people can actually do something about it. Yeah,

0:15:39.756 --> 0:15:42.436
<v Speaker 1>bit power. I mean, we can talk all day long,

0:15:42.476 --> 0:15:45.156
<v Speaker 1>but you know, Malcolm, Globble and Rundally Young do not

0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:49.116
<v Speaker 1>have any power. But yeah, I mean, Miles, that's like

0:15:49.396 --> 0:15:51.036
<v Speaker 1>one of us has a little bit more than the other.

0:15:51.076 --> 0:15:54.316
<v Speaker 1>But you know what else not real I mean, but

0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:56.876
<v Speaker 1>these people about power, I mean, that's what's happening here

0:15:56.996 --> 0:16:00.036
<v Speaker 1>is the intelligent application of power with the goal of

0:16:00.076 --> 0:16:05.796
<v Speaker 1>solving this problem. And that's exciting. Malcolm, thank you so

0:16:05.876 --> 0:16:08.996
<v Speaker 1>much for stopping by and coming back from your long

0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:12.196
<v Speaker 1>journey away and joining us to get here at Solvable.

0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:16.276
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much. It's been really fun. Ronald, Malcolm

0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:18.916
<v Speaker 1>Gladwell is the host of our sister podcast here at

0:16:18.916 --> 0:16:22.356
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Revisionist History, and though I may be asked on

0:16:22.396 --> 0:16:26.596
<v Speaker 1>the street, he's the actual author of Blink, among many

0:16:26.636 --> 0:16:30.796
<v Speaker 1>other best selling books, including my personal favorite, David and Goliath,

0:16:30.876 --> 0:16:33.676
<v Speaker 1>and if you stay tuned to the Solvable feed, you

0:16:33.756 --> 0:16:38.036
<v Speaker 1>may hear another conversation between me and him about that book.

0:16:39.156 --> 0:16:42.396
<v Speaker 1>Our cultural and corporate thinking about climate change may finally

0:16:42.436 --> 0:16:45.156
<v Speaker 1>be shifting, and that is due in part to the

0:16:45.196 --> 0:16:49.636
<v Speaker 1>extremely hard working scholars, activists, and policy experts working on

0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:53.436
<v Speaker 1>this every day. There's no single solution to climate change,

0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:55.996
<v Speaker 1>so be sure to check out our past episodes, which

0:16:56.036 --> 0:16:58.916
<v Speaker 1>explore in much more detail how to address not only

0:16:58.996 --> 0:17:04.276
<v Speaker 1>regenerative agricultural practices, but also clean water access and wastewater treatment.

0:17:04.276 --> 0:17:07.996
<v Speaker 1>In a conversation with visionary Catherine Coleman Flowers. We have

0:17:07.996 --> 0:17:11.196
<v Speaker 1>a great episode about world reef bleaching and marine biodiversity

0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:16.756
<v Speaker 1>with Sarah Hamlin, another about innovation and scientific incentivization with

0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:20.916
<v Speaker 1>Anusia and Sorry, one about wildfire management with Eric Apple,

0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:25.396
<v Speaker 1>smart transportation with Laura Showell, and a fantastic conversation with

0:17:25.596 --> 0:17:30.116
<v Speaker 1>longtime climate scholar and activists Bill mckibbon. Links to all

0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:32.956
<v Speaker 1>those Solvable episodes can be found in our show notes.

0:17:35.076 --> 0:17:37.956
<v Speaker 1>Thanks to our sponsors who made this episode possible, and

0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:45.236
<v Speaker 1>to Pushkin's Royston Reserve for the custom content production. Solvable

0:17:45.316 --> 0:17:49.116
<v Speaker 1>is produced by Joscelyn Frank, research by David Jah, Booking

0:17:49.236 --> 0:17:53.436
<v Speaker 1>by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias. Our

0:17:53.476 --> 0:17:57.356
<v Speaker 1>executive producer is mil LaBelle. Special thanks to Heather Fane,

0:17:57.636 --> 0:18:03.236
<v Speaker 1>Carl Migliori, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, and Nicole Morano. I'm

0:18:03.356 --> 0:18:10.436
<v Speaker 1>Ronald Young Jr. Thanks for listening. Eight