1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: These days, President Trump never misses an opportunity to criticize 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff Sessions directly and obliquely in tweets and speeches, 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: even one to the Boy Scouts. As the Scout law says, 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: a Scout is trustworthy, loyal We could use some more loyalty. 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: I will tell you that Trump was not a Boy Scout. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: He did bring along several cabinet members who were, but 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: not the one who was an Eagle Scout, Jeff Sessions. 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Trump's continuing public humiliation of a cabinet member is unprecedented, 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: and it has become so virulent that not only conservatives, 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: but even liberals who opposed sessions agenda and voted against 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: him are coming to his defense. Here's Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: What the president is doing is unbelievable, but that's become 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: a hackneyed word every day. What the president doesn't is 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: beyond believe. How do you appoint the guy who was 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: a member of the United States Senate make um attorney 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: general and then undermine them and then you mill at them. 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: But in the standoff between Trump and Sessions, Sessions is 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: showing no signs of backing down. Our guest today are 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: Stephen Geller's professor at n y U Law School, and 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: William Banks, director of the Institute for National Security and 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: counter Terrorism at Syracuse University College of Law. Stephen, as 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: an expert in legal ethics, what's your reaction to this 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: attempt by Trump to get Sessions to resign? And sessions reaction? 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: The Trumps attack on Sessions is unprecedented, unconsionable, and harms 25 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: the American justice system. Sessions resistance to the Trump effort 26 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: to get him to resurn is not only appropriate, but 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: necessary to maintain the independence of the Department of Justice 28 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: from political influence. Bill. You know, a lot of people 29 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: are speculating that the President wants Sessions to resign or 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: is setting him up to fire him. What would be 31 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: the game plan here? Why? Why would he want to 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: do that? Why would he want his own hand pick 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: an attorney general to resign? Well, unfortunately, I'm afraid it 34 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: has primarily to do with sessions judgment early on to 35 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: recuse himself from the investigation that we're all riveted by. So, 36 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, getting rid of Sessions is a is a 37 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: way to get rid of Muller. I think it's a 38 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: pretty clear game plan if it goes according to this script, 39 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: Stephen his actions. Trump's actions are alienating some prominent conservatives, 40 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: also alienating his chief strategist, Steve Bannon, who once called 41 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: Sessions his mentor. What's the downside of this for Trump 42 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: in the coming days? Downside is that Trump failed to 43 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: remove Sessions, or if he succeeds in removing Sessions, fails 44 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: to remove Mueller. Um, the upside is that the country 45 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: maintains the primacy of the rule of law. Well, but Bill, 46 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: if he does, if is there a way that he 47 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: can what happens if he if he removes Sessions from 48 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: our Sessions resigned? Is he going to be able to 49 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: get somebody more pliant into that job? Well, you know that, 50 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: of course remains to be seen. But there there are 51 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: few ways that this could occur. There is a there 52 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: is a succession statute inside the Department of Justice, and 53 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: an executive order as well, which would would elevate the 54 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: Deputy Attorney General, who's Rod Rosenstein, to become the acting 55 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: Attorney General pending confirmation of someone to be sessions successor. 56 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: Of course, the President has expressed equal displeasure with Rod 57 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: Rosen's time, and so that may not be a satisfactory 58 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: situation for him, and it may take some time to 59 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: get somebody uh confirmed. In this environment, there is another 60 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: law called the Federal Vacancies Reform Act that would allow 61 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: the President to direct a person to serve who somebody 62 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: of a of a senior level of presidential appointment to 63 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: serve as an acting Attorney general for a number of days, uh, 64 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: depending on when the President nominates someone to the position. 65 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: That individual doesn't have to be serving in the Justice Department, 66 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: so he could pick someone outside. And then, of course, 67 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: finally there's there's the old recess appointment technique, which presidents 68 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: have sometimes used to to try to fill a position 69 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: that's going to be hard to fill. When Congress is 70 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: on the Senate, whether as a session the Senator as 71 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: a recess, the president may have an opportunity to appoint 72 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: someone while they're out of town. Even this August, we're 73 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: talking to Steven Giller's professor n y U Law School, 74 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: and William Banks, director of the Institute for National Security 75 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: and counter Terrorism at Syracuse University College of Law, about 76 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: the standoff between President Trump and Attorney General Jeff Sessions. Stephen. 77 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: As I mentioned, there might be another problem for Sessions 78 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: in that Diane Feinstein, who's the top Democrat on the 79 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee, is calling for him to testify before 80 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: the panel. And this over report that he discussed campaign 81 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: issues with Russia's ambassador during the presidential campaign. What may 82 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: happen here? Will he be required to testify? I guess 83 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: very much will be subpoena And I think at some 84 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: point he's going to have to explain further his answers 85 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: at his confirmation hearing. Uh the there have been additional 86 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: reports of greater detail in his communications with the Russian 87 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: officials then he allowed even in his correction. So I 88 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: think he's gonna have to explain that at some point. Um, 89 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: you know, it could be that he becomes so beleaguered 90 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: that he will have to leave, even the pot from 91 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: the pressure that the president is putting on him, but 92 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: the fact that he leaves, and even if the president 93 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: gets a compliant attorney general, people should understand that it's 94 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: not going to be that easy to get rid of Mueller. 95 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: He has jobs security, He can only be removed by 96 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: anyone for cause, and so far there has been no 97 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: zero evidence of cause. Uh well, Bill, you know, the 98 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: investigation encompasses things like obstruction of justice, potentially by the 99 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: President himself. Will any of this factor into the way 100 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: that Mueller views the investigation or could it be used 101 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: as evidence in any way it could? You know, a 102 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: lot remains to be determined, of course, but the you know, 103 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: the recent I certainly agree with with Stephen that that 104 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: Sessions is unlikely to testify immediately UH while he's subject 105 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: to this recusable, but once he once he either steps 106 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: down is dismissed by the President, he's certainly likely to 107 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: have more to say. He was not only very sloppy 108 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: at best and his UH in compliance with the reporting 109 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: requirements before he took office, but so were the other 110 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: senior members of the campaign that everybody is talking about now, 111 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: including Trump Junior and Jared Kushner. And you know, Kushner 112 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: who did did release a pretty elaborate statement ys today 113 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: really didn't do himself any favors with regard to the 114 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: failures that he made and in UH adequately reporting his 115 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: contacts with the Russians during the course of the campaign. 116 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: I think there were three separate occasions when he revised 117 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: his form, and even after each of those revisions, shortcomings remain, 118 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: as we learn when when when it comes to light 119 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: this June meeting that Trump Jr. Actually described Stephen, I 120 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: want to go back to your statement that you know 121 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: it's going to be difficult to remove Muller because he 122 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: has to be removed for cause. There are reports that 123 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: the Trump staff is investigating the investigators, so to speak, 124 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: and that they have One of the things they have 125 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: brought up is that some members of his staff donated 126 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: to Democratic candidates. Is that a problem for him in 127 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: any respect? Absolutely not. Um doating to candidates, It's not 128 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: a basis to remove a prosecutor. There are there are, 129 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: there is case law removal of prosecutor is It's very rare. 130 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: The conflict has to be much stronger, much more acute. 131 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: Nothing in the way of donations to candidates could ever 132 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: justify removing Muller, let alone donations by staff. Even if 133 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: Mueller donated to candidates, it would not justify removing him 134 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: as a prosecutor. Well, Bill, if if that doesn't justify 135 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: removing him, then you know, let's say the president manages 136 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: to get Sessions to resign or he fires them. Let's 137 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: say he manages either through a recess appointment or through 138 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: Senate confirmation to get a new new attorney general. And 139 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: how easy is it going to be? How is he 140 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: going to get somebody to fire Mueller if that's what 141 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: the end goal is, if you've got that cause that 142 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: cause provision in the law. Well, I agree with Stephen, 143 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: it's it's highly unlikely that that will occur. But you know, 144 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: the Justice Department could certainly apply pressure on Mueller's team 145 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: to hasten the completion of their investigation. May I suppose 146 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: they can make it difficult to obtain the funds to 147 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: be on certain periods to continue to investigate. More likely 148 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: that those kind of informal pressures would be brought to 149 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: bear than removal itself. And I agree Mueller is essentially untouchable. Uh. 150 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: Nobody dislikes Bob Mueller, and he doesn't have an ethical 151 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: flaw anywhere in sight. Uh. The contributions by his staff are, 152 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: as Steve said, neither here nor there. Steve, just about 153 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: thirty seconds, can you quickly explain the man of fort 154 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: why they're why they're taking they took back to subpoena 155 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: and they're negotiating with him. Why not just subpoena him 156 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: and have him come in and testify that the committees 157 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: like to do things by agreement, the witnesses like to 158 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: do things by agreement. To subpoena is just the the 159 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: sit It's a command. And if you can get the 160 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: same information collegially um voluntarily, then everyone is happier. And 161 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: so far it looks like they can. They have left 162 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: open the possibility that if they cannot, they will reissued 163 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: the subpoena. All right, well, it's it's It makes it exciting, 164 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: I guess because every day it changes, and not even 165 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: every day, almost every hour. Thank you both for being 166 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: with us here on Bloomberg Law That Steven giller As 167 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: he's a professor at n y U Law School, and 168 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,359 Speaker 1: William Banks, he's director of the Institute for National Security 169 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: and counter Terrorism at Syracuse University College of Law.