1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we get 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today, 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: we're talking about mental health. The nation has been grappling 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: with the heartbreaking tragedy surrounding the deaths of Hollywood icon 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle, allegedly at the hands 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: of their son, Nick, who has struggled with schizophrenia, substance abuse, 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: and psychiatric medication adjustments. But the story has really once 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: again thrust America's mental health crisis into the spotlight. Today, 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: we're joined by Board certified psychiatrists and former FDA medical 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: officer doctor Joseph Witt. During Doctor Joseph is a leading 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: voice challenging the over prescription of psychiatric drugs, from the 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: glamorization of SSRIs on TikTok among young women, to sort 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: of the hidden risks of long lasting use of some 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,639 Speaker 1: of these drugs, the potential push to homicidal tendencies as well, 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: that we don't really talk about as a society. Now 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: that a lot of these drugs have been mainstreamed, they're 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: discussed very casually, in a cavalier way. So we're going 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: to talk about this surge in use. What it means 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: for you, what it means for the country, and also 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: how big Pharma has fueled a lot of it. So 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: stay tuned for doctor Joseph wit During. Well, Doctor Joseph 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: whit During. It's great to have you on the show, sir. 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: You've been talking about a lot of important things in 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 1: the country just over dependency on drugs, particularly mental health drugs. 25 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: So really looking forward to getting your insight into all 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: of this. 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Lisa. 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: The concepts of mental health as well as some of 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: these psychiatric drugs, it's really on everyone's radar after the 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: tragic deaths of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle, allegedly 31 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: at the hands of his son Nick, who has a 32 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: lot history of substance abuse, mental health struggles, also reported 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: schizophrenia diagnosis, past use of a lot of different drugs 34 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: for those things, antidepressant psychiatric drugs. From your work as 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: a former FDA officer and a psychiatrist who has been 36 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: soundingly alarm on all this stuff, what does this tragedy 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: reveal about the risks of sort of overreliance on medications 38 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: for some of these complex health issues. 39 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Lisa, So you know we often typically in a 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: case like this, we wouldn't even be talking about psychiatric medications. 41 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 2: You know, and a man who you know, troubled, man 42 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: with the history of drug abuse, I think most people 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: would say, well, you know, maybe it was some illegal 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: drugs he may have been using, or maybe there was 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: some animosity between the parents. I mean, these things happen. Unfortunately, 46 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: murder happens within families. The only reason why we're talking 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: about psychiatric medications is I think TMZ got the scoop 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: on this, and they found out from a source that 49 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: he had just been in a very elite psychiatric institution 50 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 2: and while he was there, he was having trouble with medications, 51 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: and so with the diagnosis of schizophrenia, we immediately go 52 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 2: to while he was probably having trouble with antipsychotics, it 53 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: could have been some other medications as well. And so 54 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: the reason everyone's talking about psychiatric meds is that antipsychotics 55 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: in rare instances can make people homicidal. They have a 56 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: long history of doing this that is not disputed. This 57 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: is also in the drug labels for several of these 58 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: medications for homicidality and suicidality, and that makes this story 59 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: really interesting. From a drug safety perspective, because now, you know, 60 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: with the I guess the defense for Nick and also 61 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: just figuring out what happened, they need to dive into, 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: you know, is there were there signs when he was 63 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: hospitalized that these drugs were making his mood unstable? Should 64 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: he have been let out of the hospital, you know 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: for this Christmas party? And then also is there an 66 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: alternative explanation for him doing this apart from mood instability 67 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: from the drugs, you know, And they're going to have 68 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: to start looking at, you know, what was his relationship 69 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: like with his parents, was it strained where they're talking 70 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: about I don't know, like a will or something like that, 71 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: because it is possible, and this has been shown in 72 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: multiple lawsuits in the past that these drugs actually can 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: be the straw that breaks the camel's back. They can 74 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: be the causal factor for driving violent events like this. 75 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: You know. Look, I do think sometimes people have you know, 76 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: chemical imbalances. But I think the challenge we're facing is 77 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: they're given out like way too. It's too cavalier, right, 78 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: They're not taking it seriously the impact that these drugs 79 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: can have on the body. And then you're layering them 80 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: too right, So you know Nick, if he's on antidepressants 81 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: and then they're giving him drugs first schizophrenia, Like, how 82 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: do some of these drugs overlap with one another? I imagine 83 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: you know, the more you're taking obviously the bigger impact 84 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: to the body and the mind. 85 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: Yes, Lisa, you're right. You know the point that you 86 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 2: brought up on, like layering these drugs is a really 87 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: good one, because these drugs are never studied in combination. 88 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: That that's not how the FDA looks at them, and 89 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: it is very common for people to accumulate drugs. I 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: won't be surprised when we finally get maybe some of 91 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: the reports from the court when this case goes to 92 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: trial that Nick may have been on five different medications, 93 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 2: because I certainly see that a lot of the time, 94 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 2: and there is mass overuse of these medications. Now this 95 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: this is I think people often suspect this, but they 96 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: assume that it's safe. They say, well, yes, we use 97 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: a lot of these medications. But it must be because 98 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: they're safe. It must be because we've got great long 99 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,559 Speaker 2: term data on how these drugs help people over time, 100 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: and you know, the combination of medications. We must have 101 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: data for that listen. I've been at the FDA, I've 102 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 2: worked in several pharmaceutical companies directly on psychiatric drugs. We 103 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: don't have any evidence that these medications work any longer 104 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: than about a year. So that's the first thing that's 105 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: really concerning there. And so the reason that these drugs 106 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: are used so much, it's not because there's a great 107 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: evidence based supporting long term use and combination. It's really 108 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: because of commercial factors. You know, back in the nineties, 109 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: we had health insurance companies sort of conglomerate and they 110 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: started to control the flow of patients and they were 111 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: able to have doctors, they were able to bid down 112 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: the price of reimbursement for visits, and for many doctors 113 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: to make ends meet, that meant they had to see 114 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: four patients in an hour. And that's still the system 115 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: we're in today. And when you're dealing with patients who 116 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: have emotional problems and you have fifteen minutes to help them, 117 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: really the only thing you can do is prescribe a medication. 118 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: There's no time to really understand someone's problems. There's no 119 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: time to motivate them to do tried and true non 120 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: drug approaches, whether it's dietary modification or exercise, or socially 121 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: reconnecting them with people, or doing even things like mind 122 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: body work like breathing and meditation that goes out the window. 123 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: All you can essentially do is put someone on a 124 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: medication and adjust the dose up and down or hold 125 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: it the same. That is why we have fifteen percent 126 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: of Americans on these medications and five percent of kids 127 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: on them. It's not because the evidence space really supports 128 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: it or is strong. It's because of an economic convenience. 129 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting because we hear all these stories. 130 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: I wish I could remember. I was reading a calumn 131 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: a woman posted it was in you know, pretty major publication. 132 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: I've read it like a week or so. I'm just 133 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: remembering it now at the top of my head. And 134 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: she was writing, you know, posted it in response to 135 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: the Nick Reiner story and was reminding people how you know, 136 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: she got her son on antidepressants and they encouraged her 137 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: to get her son all these different things and it 138 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: just like totally made him worse. And you know, there's 139 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 1: also articles about this. You know, Chris Burks, she lost 140 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: her nineteen year old son, Bryson, to suicide. And he 141 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, he was a football player, full of energy 142 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: and all these different things, and he was actually given 143 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: antidepressants not for depression but as a treatment for the pain, 144 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: and then he tapered off the medication but then ended 145 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: up committing suicide after that. You know, there's a lot 146 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: of danger in sort of tapering off of these drugs 147 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: as well sort of what goes through the mind or 148 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, talk about sort of the impact on the 149 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: body of that time as well. 150 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, these are two really good stories to talk 151 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: about that people don't often hear about from their doctors. 152 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: And so, you know, to touch briefly on the first one, 153 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: these drugs can definitely make people worse in the short term. 154 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: I mean, that's why they have black box warnings on them. 155 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 2: They and when you look at the placebo controlled trials, 156 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: you know, this is you know, getting a group of 157 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: people who put on a placebo or sugar pill and 158 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: you compare them to a group of people put on 159 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: like the SSRIs. There are more suicide attempts on the 160 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: group who are taking the anidepressants, and so that's very 161 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: disturbing because what it's showing is that yes, these drugs 162 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: they do lower kind of the symptoms of depression by 163 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: kind of muting emotions, but that doesn't actually confer, that 164 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: doesn't lead to less suicide. In fact, it makes it worse. 165 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: And so when you tell me the story about this 166 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 2: woman whose kid got worse on the drugs and became 167 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: more suicidal, that's the average that that is actually the 168 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: norm for children on these medications, which is why it's insane. 169 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: It's absolutely insane that we have five percent of our 170 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: kids on them. And then when we transition over and 171 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: we talk about this other case of this healthy football 172 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: youth who came off the I think it was symbolta 173 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: for pain and he became suicidal. You know, this is 174 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: my bread and butter. This is what I do. I 175 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: help people come off psychiatric medications. And it's becoming more 176 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: widely talked about now that if you come off these 177 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: medications too quickly, you can actually cause a neurological injury 178 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: called protracted withdrawal, which is like having a concussion. It's 179 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: like you get hit in the head really hard, and 180 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: it can be severely destabilizing. There's something about severe withdrawal 181 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: symptom symptoms in a small group of people that can 182 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: set off this electrical storm in the brain that is 183 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: just very harmful. And you know, in in my space, 184 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: a lot of people become very suicidal when they're pulled 185 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: off these medications too quickly. 186 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: Quick break. If you like what you're hearing, please sure 187 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: on social media or send it to your family and friends. 188 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: And there's a difference to I mean, isn't it more 189 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: dangerous for young people than the adults on some of 190 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: these drugs as well, because you know, obviously their their 191 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: minds are reforming, their brains are reforming. You know, maybe 192 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: talk about a little bit of the differences between or 193 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: are they or are there differences? You know, walk us 194 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: through that. 195 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of concerning data about the 196 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 2: effects of antidepressants on the developing mind and I think, gosh, 197 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: the best way to actually look at this is with 198 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: the MRI studies and so just going back to human 199 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: human babies who were born to mothers exposed to SSRIs. 200 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: So so all of these drugs cross the placenta. When 201 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: they do MRI studies of the babies and they compare 202 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: them to babies who weren't exposed to SSRIs, they find 203 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: clear differences in the structure of the brain afterwards. This 204 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: has been confirmed in over twelve MRI studies. They then 205 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: follow these human kids up to adolescence and they find 206 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: that the kids who were you know, the kids who 207 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: were exposed in utero, and this is not even like, 208 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: you know, they stopped the medication during childhood, they have 209 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: enduring changes in areas of the brain like the amygdala, 210 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: which are involved in emotional processing. And so that to 211 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: me signals that there there are impacts of exposing the 212 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: brain to drugs that alter your neurochemistry during this critical 213 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: period of neurological development. And you know, we've also seen 214 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: this with monkeys. We've had two huge monkey studies, well 215 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: huge huge monkey studies, like thirty monkeys. We had a 216 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: monkey study from the NIMH and oh so at UC 217 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: Davis that put juvenile monkeys, you know, young monkeys on 218 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 2: these antidepressants and they found that it disrupted their sleep, 219 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: it led to more complacent behavior. You know, they found 220 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: clear structural changes in the brains afterwards, and there were 221 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: attentional problems and concentration issues and so these you know, 222 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 2: it is not a benign thing to put some to 223 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: put a developing brain on a chemical for several years 224 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: and to just take a step back from that. And 225 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: I can just speak clinically because I take a lot 226 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: of people off these medications. You know, I have women 227 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: in their forties who have been on since they, you know, 228 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: they were teenagers, and when they come off, they get 229 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: hit with all of their emotions and they say that 230 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: it's like learning to manage emotions for the first time 231 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 2: in their life. So they feel emotionally stunted in a 232 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: way because they've been blunted for such a large period 233 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: of their life, and then they're figuring it all out 234 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: when they come off. So on multiple levels, it is 235 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: something that is very concerning. 236 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: You know, you had said something about a year mark 237 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: earlier in our discussion, and was it that they've not 238 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: been studied beyond a year or they're not supposed to 239 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: be used beyond the year. 240 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: That there's never been a randomized, placebo controlled trial that 241 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: has gone longer than a year. So, you know, most 242 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: people when they get put on an antidepressant, the doctor 243 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: says they're safe and effective, and they and I guess 244 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: if you're you know, a layperson, you might just say, yeah, well, 245 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: I bet you there was some study where they put 246 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: people on these meds for maybe five years or maybe 247 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: even two years, because that's how you know, when we 248 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: look at the duration of antidepressant use among users, seventy 249 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: percent of them have been on them for two years 250 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: or more. So I think most people would say, I 251 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: bet you, we have good evidence that these drugs are 252 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: still working, you know, after a couple of years, you know, 253 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: especially since they caused tolerance and they wear off over 254 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: time and all of that. But the majority of the 255 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: studies of these medications they only last eight to twelve weeks. 256 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: Those are the short term studies and the you know, 257 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: the longer studies which the FDA uses to say that 258 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: they're safe for longer term use, that they last about 259 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: fifteen months. And I think for many people their jaws 260 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: drop when they hear this, because, you know, they wish 261 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: they were told, hey, these are safe and effective for 262 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: hey the fifteen months they were studied for. Outside of that, 263 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: we have no idea what they're doing. 264 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: So what what does long term on these drugs due 265 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: to the brain? I mean, does it permanently people come 266 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: off them, Does it permanently change sort of the you know, 267 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: balance in your brain, or I guess, are there long 268 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: term impacts even if you come off them. 269 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 2: This is an uncomfortable area. And so the truth is 270 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: I don't have any statistical data, or no one has 271 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: any statistical data because it hasn't been done in a 272 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: study where there's you know, a thousand people and there's 273 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: a clear like denominator. But if we just look at 274 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: things high level, like if you look at the popular 275 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: level data, as anydepressants have gone up, the rate of 276 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: suicide has gone up. So what that tells me is 277 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: these drugs aren't preventing suicide. They might actually be making 278 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: some people worse over the long run. When we look 279 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: at naturalistic studies, so these aren't experimental like these are 280 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: where doctors will just follow a group of people over time. Recently, 281 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: a few years ago, there was a study of six 282 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: hundred Swiss youth and they followed them for thirty years 283 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: with depression questionnaires, and they found that the kids who 284 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: were on the antidepressants compared to the kids who didn't 285 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: take any depressants, even after controlling for you know, education level, 286 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: which is frequently a metric for you know, how your 287 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: economic status and how much money you make, and they 288 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: control for the severity of the depression and family history. 289 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: Even after looking at all of that, they find that 290 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: the people who take these medications long term actually end 291 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: up worse. And then if we couple that with the 292 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 2: monkey studies I told you just a moment ago there, 293 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 2: there there are clear changes, you know when when you 294 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 2: look at what happens to you know, to either the 295 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: monkeys or the humans who who are exposed to these 296 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 2: medications long term. So yes, they do appear to be 297 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: making people worse in the long run. And this has 298 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: been you know, this isn't just you know, you know me, 299 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: you know, one person who used to work at the 300 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: FDA talking about this. This is discussed by you know, 301 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: Giovanni Fava, you know, and other psychiatric professors out there 302 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: who who have proposed reasons why this is happening. And 303 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: this also isn't just a unique thing to any depressants. 304 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: I mean, when you look at anti psychotics long term, 305 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: they cause brain impairment. It's called tart of diykinesia, and 306 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: there's permanent movement disorders. When you look at benz atiazepines, 307 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: they worsen. These are drugs like xanax and klonopin. Accepted 308 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: that they worsen anxiety frequently in people over time. If 309 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: you look at some medications for Parkinson's that affect the 310 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: dopamine circuits, they can worsen symptoms of Parkinson's long term, 311 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: and even when you look at things like alcohol and methamphetamine. 312 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 2: And to me, when I take all of this together, 313 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: all I can say is it makes sense because I don't. 314 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: I do not think the human brain really has, you know, 315 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: is evolved to handle years or decades in a drugged 316 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 2: state without something breaking eventually. 317 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: But yet they've been turned into a lifestyle accessory or 318 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, viral content. And you've contributed to major reporting, 319 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: including a Wall Street Journal piece about how gen D 320 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: women on TikTok or sort of glamorizing antidepressants and how 321 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: it's become sort of this cool cultural thing and this 322 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: normalization of it. But that doesn't that sort of deludes 323 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: the seriousness of it. So I guess, you know, why 324 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: have the into sort of a lifestyle accessory and why 325 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: as a society are we uh, you know, not telling 326 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: the truth that there's dangerous to it as well? 327 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 2: Lisa, It's such a good question. And you know, if 328 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: I put on my hat as a social commentator. Somehow, 329 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: like having a mental illness got like swept up into 330 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: the whole like oppression thing. I mean, we've just come 331 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: through a ten year period where you know, if you're 332 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: a sexual minority, or if you're a certain race, or 333 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: if you're you know, you know, agenda, you got so 334 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: you had, you got a social currency, you got you know, 335 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 2: it was you were seen to be you know, oppressed 336 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: in a way, and you know, and and and it 337 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: mattered and and people treated you well for it. And 338 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 2: so the whole mental health thing got swept up into that, 339 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: and they started saying, oh, you know, these people with 340 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: mental illness, they're so stig tized, and you know, they 341 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: really need to be supported. We had big campaigns go on, 342 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 2: like the post your pill campaign a few years ago, 343 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: where everyone was just like, hey, you know, I take 344 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: prozac or I take this anti psychotic, and they went 345 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 2: completely viral. And so, you know, I think people do 346 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: that because it's incentivized. I think you see it on TV, 347 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: you see it on media, you see celebrities talk about 348 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: their medications. I think the general sense is that you know, 349 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: if you have a mental illness and you're taking a 350 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 2: medication or several medications, you have some kind of you know, 351 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: you're a complex person, you're a sensitive person, you have 352 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: more depth to you, and so it it has become 353 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: something that we've incentivized people to identify with. And yes, 354 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: it is dangerous because you know, at a very simple sense, 355 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 2: people think it's cool and they think there's some kind 356 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: of advantage to having to taking a medication which you 357 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: know can annihilate your sex drive and cause a whole 358 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 2: bunch of problems long term. 359 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: So it is your stance that people should never be 360 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: on them, or that we should just treat them with 361 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: the seriousness that you know they deserve. 362 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: Yees. So I don't think we should throw the baby 363 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: out with the bathwater, so to speak. I mean, I 364 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: think we just have to have a very sober view 365 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: of these medications. They're not fixing any chemical imbalance. There's 366 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: no serotonin deficits in depression or dopamine deficits in schizophrenia. Essentially, 367 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: what doctors have is an armamentarium of drugs which reliably induce, 368 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: you know, a drug state, which can be therapeutic, so 369 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 2: especially in the short term. So that's really where they 370 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 2: have their strongest use. So you know, if you put 371 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: someone on a medication like an antidepressant, predictably it induces 372 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 2: a numb to state. Now, if you have someone who's 373 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 2: paralyzed by anxiety, they will experience that as therapeutic. If 374 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: that anxiety is so severe it's leading to someone being suicie, 375 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: they will experience that as being life saving. And so 376 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: it is a tool. But we also need to understand 377 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: that when you use drugs to essentially mask symptoms, a 378 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 2: whole bunch of issues arise. So firstly the tolerance problems, 379 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: they wear off over time, and also there's an opportunity 380 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: cost if you get bad medical care. So what's bad 381 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: medical care? Bad medical care is you come in, you 382 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: have these symptoms, you just get put on a drug. 383 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: A lot of the time, these symptoms, especially with like 384 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: anxiety and depression, they're due to very normal things going 385 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: on in people's lives. You know, they're due to you know, 386 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: very poor diets. You know, they're due to a lack 387 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: of exercise. They're due to social isolation. Sometimes they're due 388 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: to economic issues and stresses, you know, burnout, you know, 389 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: difficulty looking after kids. These are all completely real problems 390 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: that can be really serious of people. And if you 391 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 2: just put someone on a drug and you don't help 392 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 2: them in their lives, you're essentially just going to make 393 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: them worse over the long run, because I don't think 394 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 2: these drugs actually help people long term. And so the 395 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 2: way I like to think about it is do everything 396 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: you possibly can without medications. So use all the non 397 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: drug approaches. If you need to use them in the 398 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: short term, that's fine, but long term use should be 399 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: avoided at all costs and only considered when all of 400 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 2: the non drug approaches have already been tried and failed. 401 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: What role has big pharma played in sort of normalizing 402 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: and mainstreaming these drugs. 403 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, great question, Lisa. So I always think there's two 404 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: major forces that have led to the over prescription epidemic. 405 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: The first one I touched on before, which was the 406 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: how we've you know, the economics, you know, the health 407 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: insurance issued driving doctors to want to deliver care and 408 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: in these short visits. But the other big elephant in 409 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: the room is the drug companies. Now, you know we 410 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: spend I mean, we spend an insane amount of money 411 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: on mental health each year. Each year, I think it's 412 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: like a three hundred billion dollar industry, you know, and 413 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: if you compare that to you know, the defense budget, 414 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 2: I think it's like ninety billion, and so it just eclipses. 415 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's so huge, it's insane. And 416 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 2: in that group, the pharmaceutical industry are like the biggest actors. 417 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 2: And so these guys have billions of dollars at their 418 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: disposal to shape the narrative around medications. And the way 419 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 2: this happens is, you know, one, they can buy influence 420 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: with doctors. Many academics at big institutions discover early on 421 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: that if they work with the drug companies and their 422 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: drug and they're friendly with them, and they run their 423 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: clinical trials and they don't criticize the medications, there's actually 424 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: a lot of career advantages. And so you get and 425 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 2: because and so because of that, a lot of the 426 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: people who are in charge of academic institutions at Ivy 427 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: League universities, people that the public look up to as 428 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: for advice, they're actually very pro drug because their careers 429 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: have been built on developing the medications. That's because of 430 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: Big Farmer. Oftentimes, you also don't get any coverage of 431 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 2: negative stories about medications in the media because the pharmaceutical 432 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: industry spends a lot of money buying ads and it's 433 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: just awkward, and broadcasters will avoid this kind of issue. 434 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: These drug companies they also pay pr firms as well, 435 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: so they have a whole series of journalists who are 436 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: there ready to run cover. So if there is a 437 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: negative story that comes out about a drug, they will 438 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: have a whole bunch of whether it's medical articles or 439 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 2: just lay articles in New York Times places like that 440 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: that will say, you know, I can't believe this professor 441 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 2: said this drug was so bad. They're actually wrong. They're dangerous. 442 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: You know, they're scaring people away from medications, they're stigmatizing people. Well, 443 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, it's what you would imagine if 444 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: you're a billion dollar industry and you know your cash 445 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: cow psychiatric medications, you are going to control that narrative 446 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: and defend it at all costs. And that's why there's 447 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: just I mean, these medications are looked at as like 448 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: darlings right now. You cannot criticize them. You look like 449 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: you're a cruel person or someone that's against like a modern, 450 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: safe and life changing intervention, and and they aren't these things. 451 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: But that's what that sort of money and influence has 452 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: been able to do in just the cultural narrative. 453 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like we went through a lot of 454 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: this with COVID as well, where you know, if you 455 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: had questions about lockdowns or questions about the vaccines, you know, 456 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: you were sort of shut down, and you know you're 457 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: labeled anti science or you don't care about people. You know. 458 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: It's like, I think we kind of all learned how 459 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: big of a role big pharma has on our country 460 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: and sort of the power of that, or even you 461 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: know the power of people like doctor Fauci previously at 462 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: the NIH and shutting down research that he doesn't like, 463 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: or or the fear of scientists and studying things who 464 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: want grants and fearful that that's going to be cut 465 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: off if they, you know, run a foul of some 466 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: of these alphabet agencies. You know, So what do people do, right, 467 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: Because there's people who are on some of these drugs 468 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: and you know, they listen to their doctors or maybe 469 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: they need it in the short term that you laid 470 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: out previously, you know, how do they get off them? 471 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: What does that process look like? I know that's part 472 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: of your expertise in tapering people off these So you know, 473 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: what are your recommendations there? 474 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what I would recommend is, you know, don't 475 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: jump off these medications without talking to a doctor or 476 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: a professional that you trust. Fust Ideally, you want to 477 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 2: prepare yourself to come off by identifying the areas in 478 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: the life that lead to your depression. Sometimes they're super 479 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 2: concrete and it's you know, your you know, bad relationship 480 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: or that you don't like. Other times it can seem 481 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: like the symptoms come out of nowhere, in which case 482 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: things like diet, exercise, mindfulness are really really good. So 483 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: you want to identify the reason why you're depressed in 484 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: the first place and try and address start addressing that 485 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: with non drug causes now. Afterwards, when you come off 486 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 2: these medications, especially if you've been on them for several years, 487 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 2: the worst thing that you can do is come off 488 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: in like two months or something like that. Your brain 489 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: has taken years to adapt to the presence of this medication, 490 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 2: and if you come off quickly like that, many people 491 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: will go into withdrawal. And typically what happens is the 492 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: doctor will say, well, you know, we tried to bring 493 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: you off and now you're having all of these symptoms. 494 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: This is proof that your underlying depression is coming back. 495 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: You know, you're chronically mentally ill and you just need 496 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: to be on these medications for life. For so many 497 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: people that is not the case. They're simply in drug 498 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: withdrawal and it could be avoided if they go slower. 499 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: And so two things that I would recommend you do 500 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: first is that you start with a five or a 501 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: ten percent reduction. And so this can be You can 502 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: do this in two ways. If you have a tablet, 503 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: you can get a small Duweler's scale and you can 504 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 2: shave off small increments of the tablet with a with 505 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: a raiser, and then you can slowly lower it down 506 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: in five to ten increments. And you just want to 507 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 2: listen to your body. So you do a reduction, you 508 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: wait two weeks. If your symptoms are manageable, then you 509 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: do another reduction, and so on and so forth. And 510 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: in this way you can slowly bring yourself down. If 511 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: you start to have a lot of withdrawal symptoms, go 512 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: up to the last dose that you tolerated, wait a 513 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: couple of weeks and do a smaller reduction. And when 514 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: you do it in that way, you're going to make 515 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: sure that you're moving at a pace that your body 516 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: can handle. The final thing that I want to mention 517 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 2: is that the most challenging part of coming off psychiatric 518 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: meta is just at the very end, when you get 519 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: to the lowest dose. Typically it's the dose that you're 520 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: started on. That's when most of the drug will start 521 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: to disconnect from the receptor because there's no longer all 522 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: this you know, residual drug floating around your brain from 523 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: the higher doses. You know, when you're at that lowest dose, 524 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: every time you remove a little bit, you're disengaging a 525 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: lot of receptors. And so do not be discouraged if 526 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: it becomes harder at the end. Sometimes that last bit 527 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 2: can take just as long as the top you know, 528 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the taper, and so that last 529 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: bit just move extra slowe and for whatever reason. I mean, 530 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: if you want to find out you know more than this, 531 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: like a two minute bit that I'm sharing now is 532 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: you can come over to my YouTube channel. It's doctor 533 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: Joseph Josef and we have just full playlists that can 534 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: completely go through all of these tapering tips on how 535 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 2: to come off the medication safely. 536 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: Got to take a quick commercial break more with doctor 537 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: Witt during on the other side, you know, and before 538 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: we go, we've seen sort of the Make America Healthy 539 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: Again movement and r FK Junior as Health and Human 540 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: Services Secretary sort of address and touch these previously untouchables, 541 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, like over you know, overdependence on some of 542 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: these drugs, or concerns with vaccines, or you know, things 543 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: that potentially could lead to autism. I know you discussed 544 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: the dangers of taking these while pregnant, But what do 545 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: you kind of hope that we get from our FK 546 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: Junior and from the Trump administration's desire to sort of 547 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: look under the hood and dig a little deeper on 548 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: all of these things. You know. 549 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: The first thing is just that we're having these conversations now. 550 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 2: I think a lot of this problem can be solved 551 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 2: with just informed consent, you know, just just with parents knowing, 552 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: oh wow, you know, we actually don't know what these 553 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: drugs do. After about eighteen months. If I'm going to 554 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: put my child who has a developing brain, you know, 555 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: on this drug, I want to have crystal clear knowledge 556 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 2: that this is going to work, and we don't have that. 557 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 2: I think just people knowing that it's going to make 558 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: a big difference. So so you know, adults knowing that. 559 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: I also think that the federal agencies have been so 560 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: captured by the drug company I mean drug companies. I mean, 561 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: as someone who used to work at the FDA, most 562 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: of the people who work at the FDA are like 563 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: former academics who have gone through you know, you know, 564 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: they've been groomed essentially by the pharmaceutical industry to look 565 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: at things in a certain way. They exist in this community. 566 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: And what I see Bobby doing is he's putting very 567 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: ethical people in charge of these organizations and allowing them 568 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: to build the team. And so I think if you 569 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: can get someone really good the National Institute of Mental Health, 570 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: we can start to get some really great research. I mean, 571 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: we may get a long term study on any depressants. 572 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: We may get one that compares it to things like exercise, meditation, 573 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 2: dietary change. I mean, these are all the things that 574 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: doctors really want to know so they can help their patients. 575 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: And so I think informed consent and also just improving 576 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: the leadership within the federal agencies. And I think he's 577 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: going to do that. I think he's really doing a 578 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: great job so far. 579 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: Doctor witt During, thank you so much for your time. Sir. 580 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: We really appreciate very interesting stuff. 581 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: Thanks Lisa, thanks for having me have a good one. 582 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: That was doctor Joseph witt During. Appreciate him for me 583 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: in the time to come on the show. Appreciate you 584 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but 585 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: you can listen throughout the week. I also want to 586 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: thank my producer, John Cassio for putting the show together. 587 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: Until next time.