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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Laverne Cox. My voice, my voge.

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Speaker 2: There are so many things that come to mind when

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Speaker 2: I think about my voice and finding my voice. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's the idea of sort of finding my voice in

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Speaker 2: terms of being able to speak up for myself and

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Speaker 2: to own my story and to find a way to

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Speaker 2: sort of tell my story.

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Speaker 1: That part of finding my voice.

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Speaker 2: But today what I want to talk about is my

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Speaker 2: actual voice, my singing voice and my speaking voice.

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Speaker 1: And my voice for me has been.

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Speaker 2: A frock subject, a contested space, particularly as a trans

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Speaker 2: woman who has a very deep voice. I'm a trans

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Speaker 2: woman who started my medical transition at the age of

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Speaker 2: twenty six, and so my voice had already changed as

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Speaker 2: a result of puberty and the testosterone dump that happens.

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Speaker 2: Do people assign mail at birth during puberty if they

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Speaker 2: have not had some sort of intervention, And I had

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Speaker 2: no idea. I didn't even know the term transgender when

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Speaker 2: I was going through puberty back in the day, and

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Speaker 2: so sort of blocking that puberty was not really an option.

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Speaker 2: And there are certain women who go through a puberty

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Speaker 2: that you know, causes all the effects of testosterone that

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Speaker 2: are unfortunate, and they have you know, high feminine voices nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: and then there's some of us who have very deep voices.

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Speaker 2: And because I'm an actress and because I've studied singing

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Speaker 2: and have a very wide singing range, I can change

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Speaker 2: my voice. I can make it sound a little softer

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Speaker 2: and more feminine. And for many years I would kind

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Speaker 2: of try to just you know, speak about sometimes you know,

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Speaker 2: a fifth higher than my natural inclination to speak. And

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Speaker 2: as an actress, I need to have that flexibility anyway

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Speaker 2: to kind of maybe switch the pitch of my voice

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Speaker 2: or the resonance of my voice. Sometimes it's not about pitch,

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Speaker 2: it's about resonance. And like there's all of this, you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of literature out there for trans women and around

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Speaker 2: speech pathology and finding your female voice and all that stuff, right,

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Speaker 2: and then there's just me needing to make a point.

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Speaker 2: What I have to say is more important than like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the sound of my voice, and so I

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Speaker 2: have to just communicate it. And some so sometimes there's

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Speaker 2: going to be a bit more bass in my voice,

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Speaker 2: and I, for the most part, am okay with that.

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Speaker 2: I definitely have moments still when I hear my speaking

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Speaker 2: voice and I have a podcast, so I hear my

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Speaker 2: speaking voice a lot where I'm like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: you sound so masculine. And then I have to remind

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Speaker 2: myself that trans is beautiful. I started the hashtag trans

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Speaker 2: is beautiful know now eight years ago.

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Speaker 1: God it is really for me.

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Speaker 2: He is a reminder that I'm not beautiful despite all

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Speaker 2: the things that make me noticeably trans. My voice is

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Speaker 2: one of those things that makes me noticeably trans. But

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Speaker 2: I'm beautiful because of those things. And so when I

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Speaker 2: hear my voice and I have the impulse just say, oh,

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Speaker 2: you sound too masculine. Oh that's too deep, I have

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Speaker 2: to say, trans is beautiful. And this is the voice

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Speaker 2: that I have because of, you know, the puberty I

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Speaker 2: went through, and that is okay, It's okay. And so

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Speaker 2: that is something I still, you know, kind of work

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Speaker 2: with and struggle with. And there are days when I

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Speaker 2: resonate my voice better. And I wouldn't say my voice

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Speaker 2: is necessarily more feminine, but it's more resonant, and I.

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Speaker 1: Have to just accept that.

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Speaker 2: I have to accept that, and then there's a piece

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Speaker 2: of me singing. So there is the issue of my

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Speaker 2: speaking voice and there's the issue of my singing voice.

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Speaker 2: So when I started voice lessons for the first time,

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Speaker 2: I was in college. I was at Indiana University, and

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Speaker 2: it was determined at the time that I was a

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Speaker 2: bass baritone based on my range at the time. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I sang in that range and that register

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Speaker 2: for a number of years until I moved to New

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Speaker 2: York and discovered a drag queen named Shaquida who sang

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Speaker 2: opera in a soprano voice. And there was also the

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Speaker 2: movie Peter Nelli that featured the counter tenor Derek Lee Reagan,

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Speaker 2: so I learned about countertenors. And then there was also

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Speaker 2: another drag queen named Barladuine Morman who sang in soprano.

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Speaker 2: And so I was like, Oh, my goodness, is possible

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Speaker 2: to be assigned male at birth and to sing soprano?

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Speaker 2: And I was just kind of obsessed with the possibility

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Speaker 2: of being able to do that. And I started experimenting

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Speaker 2: with falsetto with various results, and then found Irisif in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, who I interviewed on the first season

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Speaker 2: of this podcast, and he is a male soprano himself

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Speaker 2: and has just you know, years of experience as a

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Speaker 2: singer himself and also as a teacher training voices of

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Speaker 2: people who all voice types, really, but it knows a

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Speaker 2: lot about voices that were assigned male at birth, that

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Speaker 2: went through a puberty that released testosterone. I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: be very intention with my language. So note on the

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Speaker 2: language that I'm using. I'm avoiding terms like male puberty

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Speaker 2: because I think that that feels biologically essentialist, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think I went through a male puberty. I went

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Speaker 2: through a puberty that caused a release of testosterone because

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Speaker 2: of the sort of reproductive organs that I was born with.

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Speaker 2: It's not I'm that I'm in denial. I'm very comfortably trans.

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Speaker 2: But it's just like I'm trying to be more exacting

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Speaker 2: and more accurate, and I'm really trying to disrupt the

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Speaker 2: normative assumptions that we have around biology and the gender

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Speaker 2: binary and all of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So just a note on that language anyway.

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Speaker 2: So there is the piece of my singing voice and

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Speaker 2: singing Oh my god, there's so much such a history

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Speaker 2: of trauma with me with singing. And I've just released

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Speaker 2: music Summertime a Trip Opera available wherever you get your music,

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Speaker 2: and there's a video available on YouTube. And I'm happy

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Speaker 2: that I've released this music. I've released music before where

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Speaker 2: I don't really sing. I am sort of talk sing.

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Speaker 2: And I've been studying opera on and off for the

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Speaker 2: past about twenty seven years with Ira And yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's the thing of like my voice as a trans woman,

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Speaker 2: but then there's also the thing about sort of being

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Speaker 2: an artificial soprano, right, and the there I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: a new movement of countertenor as an opera. A countertenor,

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Speaker 2: just by definition, is the considered the highest male voice.

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Speaker 2: It's basically when male singers, people who identify as male

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Speaker 2: sing in a treble voice, and that trouble voice could

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Speaker 2: be alto, mezzo, soprano or soprano. There are countertenors who

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Speaker 2: sing soprano, and there are counter of tunos who sing alto.

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Speaker 2: It just depends on your range and your you know,

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Speaker 2: facility and whatnot, and so often the counter ten of

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Speaker 2: voice can be strident, can be shril and not the

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Speaker 2: most beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Sound in the world.

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Speaker 2: And then when they're and when there was a really

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Speaker 2: good countertenor for me, I think it could be one

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Speaker 2: of the most glorious sounds in the world. I think

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Speaker 2: of Shaquita, and Shaquita in her prime just has one

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Speaker 2: of the most beautiful sort of soprano male quote unquote

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Speaker 2: male soprano counter tenor voices that I've ever heard. It's

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Speaker 2: a beautiful, gorgeous sound. It's a new singer named Kiman

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Speaker 2: Murrah who is sort of lighting up the opera world

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Speaker 2: right now. Who's a young singer counter tenor who happens

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Speaker 2: to also be a soprano, who has a luscious sound.

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Speaker 2: And so, anyway, as I've experimented with my own voice

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Speaker 2: and my own sort of singing, you know, transitioning to

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Speaker 2: a troubled voice and sort of being met so for

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Speaker 2: a while and then sort of finding soprano notes and

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Speaker 2: fluctuating between a soprano and a mezzo, and I'm in

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Speaker 2: an interesting place right now vocally where some things have shifted,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the voice is always changing. See that's

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Speaker 2: the thing. It's like my voice is changing all over again.

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Speaker 2: At fifty. It's like I'm going through another puberty at fifty.

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Speaker 2: My voice is cracking and it's changing all over again.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the things like I have as an artist.

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Speaker 2: So I'm insanely critical, and I think that can serve

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Speaker 2: me really well and in so many different areas. I

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Speaker 2: think critically about the world around me. But sometimes when

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Speaker 2: that criticism turns inward, it can be it can be

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Speaker 2: very dangerous. I know what good singing is, and I

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Speaker 2: have a very high standard for what good singing is,

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Speaker 2: and I know when it's not I'm not doing it.

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Speaker 1: But it's actually really hard to sing really well.

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Speaker 2: And I think the things that really make good singing

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Speaker 2: first and foremost pitch, and I don't have a great ear.

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Speaker 2: It's gotten better, but it is not a good ear,

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Speaker 2: and that is one of the best, the most fundamental

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Speaker 2: thing that you sing in tune. And so you know

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Speaker 2: what is wonderful is that if you train, and if

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Speaker 2: you work really really hard, your ear.

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Speaker 1: Can get better with training and practice.

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Speaker 2: In mind has it was a disaster for many years

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Speaker 2: and I still have bad days, but it has gotten better.

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Speaker 2: So pitch dynamics, and when I say dynamics, I mean

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Speaker 2: the ability to sing softly loudly, to go from soft

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Speaker 2: to loud sometimes in a phrase. Mesodvouce is an operatic

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Speaker 2: term that we use to sort of denote starting a

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Speaker 2: note really quietly, quscendoing that note or getting louder, and

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Speaker 2: then decrescendoing that note or getting softer. Many people think

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Speaker 2: it's that, you know, if you can do a mesa

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Speaker 2: devotion on every note throughout your range, then you've mastered

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Speaker 2: your technique because the breath control, you know, breath control

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Speaker 2: is so is another essential element and breathing of good singing.

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Speaker 2: How you control the emission of the air so many things.

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Speaker 2: I mean an open throat. I mean, it's so technical

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Speaker 2: and ideally you want to be at a certain point

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Speaker 2: where you don't have to think about all these things

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Speaker 2: that it just comes out naturally. And I'm almost always

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Speaker 2: thinking about all these things. It's like, you know, it always.

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Speaker 2: It's rare that it comes out naturally for me. And

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Speaker 2: this is why acting is my first day and this

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Speaker 2: is why I'm an actress and not a singer. But

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Speaker 2: even though I'm an actress and not a singer, I

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Speaker 2: still sing for fun. It's something that is often frustrating

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Speaker 2: and difficult for me every day as I practice, and

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Speaker 2: the voice is different every day. But it is also

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Speaker 2: something that brings me a lot of joy sometimes, like

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Speaker 2: sometimes when I'm on set and I don't care and

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Speaker 2: i just start singing and I'm not in this perfectionistic thing.

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Speaker 2: It's just fun. And that's where I want to always

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Speaker 2: sort of be with my singing. Ideally, it's just a

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Speaker 2: it's an ongoing kind of process, and it is incredibly

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Speaker 2: vulnerable when you've been told that you can't sing most

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Speaker 2: of your life. I've been told this and that I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't sing and I should shut up.

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Speaker 1: So that is.

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Speaker 2: When you've had that told to you your entire life,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a you know, it's hard not to internalize.

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Speaker 2: And so to continue to sing despite that feels like

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Speaker 2: either I'm delusional or crazy or I'm just like, fuck

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Speaker 2: the world, I'm going to do what I want. I

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Speaker 2: think it's probably maybe a little combination of both. And

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Speaker 2: so it's just I guess what I want to say

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Speaker 2: for trans folks out there who want to sing and

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Speaker 2: are sort of figuring out like their voices and there,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's maybe not a fem if you

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Speaker 2: want it to be.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's just not what it's going to be for you,

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Speaker 1: and that's okay.

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Speaker 2: You know, what is feminine and masculine is such a

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Speaker 2: they are social constructs. One of my favorite singers is Saravant.

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Speaker 2: She's a jazz singer. There's some wonderful videos on YouTube

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Speaker 2: of her vocal range, and she has some low notes.

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Speaker 2: She's a contralto, and she has low notes that sound

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Speaker 2: full on baritone like baritonal kind of sounds that she

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Speaker 2: makes that are just stunning. But they're still feminine. They're

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Speaker 2: still beautifully feminine. And so the voices are. I think

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Speaker 2: that's one of the wonderful things about voices that it

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Speaker 2: can be androgens, it can be genderless, it could be anything,

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Speaker 2: you know, and sometimes you never know.

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Speaker 1: What someone's gender is based on their voice.

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Speaker 2: We can make assumptions, but we don't always know, and

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Speaker 2: that's kind of an awesome and cool thing.

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Speaker 1: This is a good time to take a little break. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're back.

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Speaker 2: So much of me on learning my internalized transphobia to

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Speaker 2: accept my speaking voice and then with my singing voice,

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Speaker 2: to understand that like I don't have that warm, gorgeous

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Speaker 2: sound that like Shaquita has, or that Kumon Morale has,

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Speaker 2: or those one of those voice like Lanting Prize are

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Speaker 2: just a normal voices that are just warm and smoky

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Speaker 2: and dark. And whenever I overdarken my voice, it just

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Speaker 2: doesn't really, it doesn't really work.

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Speaker 1: It's not what my sound is.

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Speaker 2: And so just trying to be true to my sound

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Speaker 2: like that, my voice sounds a certain way. When I

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Speaker 2: sing in chest's voice, it can be darker. Actually, when

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Speaker 2: I sing in chest, I can how get some tones

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Speaker 2: and some sounds that have a so I can have

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Speaker 2: that some very sort of covered dark smoky sounds in

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Speaker 2: my chest voice. And then and when I ascend into

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Speaker 2: my head voice, I can sometimes write in the mix

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Speaker 2: of that I can maybe have a little bit more

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Speaker 2: of that quality maybe around the mix.

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Speaker 3: All.

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Speaker 2: Oh, but eventually you have to let go of that weight.

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Speaker 2: If you want to keep going up, you just can't do.

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Speaker 2: There's weight on that and that's fine, But if you

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Speaker 2: want to keep ascending the scale, you have to let

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Speaker 2: go of the waves.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, hmmm, that was fun.

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Speaker 1: That was fun. I mean, was it perfect now?

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Speaker 2: I mean it's just me going through my range a

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Speaker 2: little bit, glissando ing, glissandoing, I think it just made

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Speaker 2: up a word, gleisandoing portamentoing throughout my range, notssly doing scales,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of sliding up and.

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Speaker 1: Down the scale.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fun and it's fun just saying those thing

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Speaker 2: in my chest voice now too, which is new for me.

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Speaker 1: And as I the.

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Speaker 2: Lower there's a theory that the lower you're seeing, the

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Speaker 2: high you can sing. And I definitely find and I

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Speaker 2: allow myself to sing at the very bottom of my

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Speaker 2: chest voice some of those almost vocal fry kind of

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Speaker 2: sounds that like, I can go higher.

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Speaker 1: I've been topping out around the.

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Speaker 2: F F sharp above high c lately or F sharp

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Speaker 2: six lately, and it hasn't been going higher than that

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Speaker 2: a case in the past. I've had a G you know,

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Speaker 2: and then that happens to be, you know, an F

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Speaker 2: above high sea, which is fun to sing. For me,

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Speaker 2: it's a dream and I never honestly thought I'd be

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Speaker 2: able to sing this high. And it's always about having

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Speaker 2: everything be connected from the bottom to the top of

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Speaker 2: the voice. So yeah, and so as I get into

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Speaker 2: it pedagogically and technically, it's really interesting and fascinating and fun,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I could talk about it all day,

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Speaker 2: and so that part kind of gets me excited. There's

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Speaker 2: the piece of like releasing music and people criticizing and

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Speaker 2: saying I should shut up. And then there's just like

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Speaker 2: the fascination that I have with how to do all

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Speaker 2: this and the production of it that I'm endlessly fascinated with,

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Speaker 2: And like when I allow myself to be in the

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Speaker 2: space of being a student and being in a space

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Speaker 2: of the fascination and the curiosity and the kind of

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Speaker 2: joy of it all, I don't know, it supersedes the

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Speaker 2: sort of insecurity that I have around my voice and

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Speaker 2: it not being you know.

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Speaker 1: A voice that can bring worlds together.

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Speaker 2: Some something, and saying like that, it's it's my voice.

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Speaker 2: It's my voice, and accepting my voice in all of

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Speaker 2: its imperfections is just a daily process self acceptance on

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Speaker 2: every single level. There is a YouTuber named Herbie Rivalis

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Speaker 2: who ends their YouTube videos I'm forever in a state

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Speaker 2: of practice, and I love that. I love that, so

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Speaker 2: I too, am forever in a state of practice. And

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Speaker 2: when you're an artist, when your body is your instrument,

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Speaker 2: when my emotional life is an actor is my instrument,

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Speaker 2: My voice is my instrument, my body is my instrument.

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Speaker 2: The levels of self acceptance required are really on a

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Speaker 2: whole other level, and it is so incredibly vulnerable, but

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Speaker 2: it is also wonderful. And there's so many lessons from

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Speaker 2: my artistic work and my artistic training as an actor,

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Speaker 2: as a dancer, as a singer that inform my psychological

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Speaker 2: and emotional healing.

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Speaker 1: That is really a gift. It's really a gift.

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Speaker 2: And in the parlance of the community resiliency model, if

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Speaker 2: you recall the six the six components of the community

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Speaker 2: resiliency model from Season one, resourcing is one of them.

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Speaker 2: And singing is a wonderful resource for me. Is something

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Speaker 2: I do in life that sues me, and it's a

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Speaker 2: resource when I'm not all sort of actionistic about it

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Speaker 2: and all hard on myself about it. And does that

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Speaker 2: mean I need to, like, you know, record and release music. No,

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Speaker 2: but I've done that anyway, because I love this trip

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Speaker 2: Hopera project. I think it's really interesting and cool and

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Speaker 2: so if I can ever get the second video edit it,

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Speaker 2: it'll be out when it's out. And I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it's just, you know, being an artist and being creative

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Speaker 2: is it's who I am. And contending with my voice

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Speaker 2: in the world is a part of that. But owning

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Speaker 2: it and cultivating it and training it. Finding my voice

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Speaker 2: feels right, that it's not just an uncultivated voice that

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Speaker 2: you hear speaking before you, that you hear when I'm singing.

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Speaker 2: It is a voice that has been honed through pain

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Speaker 2: and sorrow and training and critical interventions, all sorts.

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Speaker 1: And that's me, that's me, That's Leverne.

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Speaker 2: What else is true? What else is true for me today?

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Speaker 2: As I talk about my voice and saying that I

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Speaker 2: have a voice, that I have a voice, that I

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Speaker 2: have the resources to train, that I've had the fortitude

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Speaker 2: to train and to get better, and to not allow

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Speaker 2: not being good at something to keep me from doing

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Speaker 2: something that I love.

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Speaker 1: Creative expression is.

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Speaker 2: Not always about a product or something that one can

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Speaker 2: sell or something that is like marketable. Sometimes creative expression

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Speaker 2: is just that it's creative expression that one needs for oneself,

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Speaker 2: for one's mental health and psychological well being. And that

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Speaker 2: is what creativity is for me. Ultimately, I'm a student

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Speaker 2: who for whatever reason, needs to sing. There's moments when

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Speaker 2: it feels really good in your body, when things line

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Speaker 2: up and it feels really good, that it just like

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Speaker 2: it's awesome, and it could be a moment you know

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Speaker 2: that like no one hears, is not recorded. I'm in

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Speaker 2: the shower or I'm in my apartment by myself and

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Speaker 2: just something beautiful comes out or it feels beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I magnet. It might not sound so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: But it feels good in my body, and God, that's

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Speaker 2: a really great thing. Somehow the joy and that that

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Speaker 2: feeling a release can overcome sometimes that critical voice, which

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Speaker 2: is really awesome when that can happen. So yeah, some

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Speaker 2: random thoughts about me and my voice, my vote check.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please like, subscribe,

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Speaker 2: and share this podcast with everybody you know. You can

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Speaker 2: find me on Twitter, slash x, Instagram and TikTok at

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Speaker 2: Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real.

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Speaker 2: Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox

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Speaker 2: Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite chews