WEBVTT - The Fearless Robbie Kaplan

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<v Speaker 1>This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the

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<v Speaker 1>Thing from iHeart Radio. In twenty twenty three and twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four, author E. Gene Carroll faced Donald Trump in

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<v Speaker 1>court and one both times. My guest today is the

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<v Speaker 1>attorney who took on Trump in both cases and secured

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<v Speaker 1>two unanimous jury verdicts against him. ROBERTA. Or Robbie Caplan

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<v Speaker 1>as a renowned civil litigator and trial lawyer with decades

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<v Speaker 1>of experience in commercial, higher education, government regulation, and civil

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<v Speaker 1>rights litigation. She has been consistently ranked as one of

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<v Speaker 1>the top litigators in the country. Caplin famously woned the

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court on behalf of LGBTQ rights activist Edith Windsor

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<v Speaker 1>in a landmark case that required the federal government to

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<v Speaker 1>recognize same sex marriages. Originally from Cleveland, Ohio, Caplin attended

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<v Speaker 1>Harvard University and Columbia Law School, But before settling in

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<v Speaker 1>New York City, Kaplain studied Russian history and briefly lived

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<v Speaker 1>in Moscow. I was curious what it was like living

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<v Speaker 1>in Russia.

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<v Speaker 2>In a lot of ways, I think it shaped my

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<v Speaker 2>view of the world more than anything else in my life.

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<v Speaker 2>It was nineteen seven, I'm very old, and Glossnows had

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<v Speaker 2>been announced. Gorbachev was the head of right of the government.

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<v Speaker 2>Glassos had been announced, but it was still the old system.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I got, you know, a semester of seeing

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<v Speaker 2>what it was like to live in a totalitarian, authoritarian regime.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was insane. We would go into our classrooms

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<v Speaker 2>and there would be these bugs at the ceiling and

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes the bugs would break and you'd hear like all

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<v Speaker 2>the static coming out, and everyone would just act like

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<v Speaker 2>it was normal. The teachers all had to be Communist

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<v Speaker 2>Party members, and so they had a class on the

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<v Speaker 2>Russian words strata vietnya. I guess it would be like

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<v Speaker 2>customs of the country, and they would say things like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we have the consa male and then one

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<v Speaker 2>of the American kids will raise their hands and say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>we have the same thing. It's the girl Scouts and

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<v Speaker 2>boy Scouts, and I'd be like, what are you talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Like it was just terrifying to see how if you

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<v Speaker 2>put people, even Americans. I guess we're seeing that today,

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<v Speaker 2>but if you put Americans in that environment, they kind

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<v Speaker 2>of succumb to it. It gave me I'm sorry to say,

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<v Speaker 2>a very negative view of human nature, which probably isn't

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<v Speaker 2>such a good thing, although it's good for a lawyer.

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<v Speaker 1>I often tell myself that, you know, all these societies

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<v Speaker 1>ours included, you can't judge them by their political leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the people might be completely different. Are the

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<v Speaker 1>Russian people very different from their political Well?

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<v Speaker 2>I know, the people I knew and hung out with

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<v Speaker 2>were like, I was crazy. They're hung out with all

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<v Speaker 2>these dissidents and refused next Jews who had asked to

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<v Speaker 2>leave and been refused. And you couldn't tell one group

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<v Speaker 2>of friends about the other group of friends because that

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<v Speaker 2>would make them paranoid. And it was very kind of

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<v Speaker 2>cloak and daggery kgb E. But the people I were

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<v Speaker 2>friends with was great, and you would this is actually

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<v Speaker 2>and you would hang out all night and drink vodka

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<v Speaker 2>and talk about Russian literature. And then when I came

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<v Speaker 2>back here, I was like, what's wrong with Americans? Like

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<v Speaker 2>were also shallow. I had a little bit of a breakdown.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, what's our society is just so surface

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<v Speaker 2>as opposed to the Russians.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you come from like a super legal minded family?

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<v Speaker 2>What do I had a roof coding. Business really didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really wear in Cleveland, which was my mom's dad's business.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't going to sound very clean. In Cleveland,

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<v Speaker 2>it's proounced roof coding, I under said, New York, it's

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<v Speaker 2>roof coding. But he had a factory, and in the

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<v Speaker 2>summers I worked there, I would load five gallon pails.

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<v Speaker 1>With Now, do you have any siblings.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a younger brother, and he was in the business. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he had to do the fun stuff because he could

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<v Speaker 2>like drive the forklift.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, when you decide to go to law school, what what?

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<v Speaker 1>What inspired that decision?

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<v Speaker 2>So originally I thought I was so into Russian history

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<v Speaker 2>from college. I thought I wanted to be a Russian historian.

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<v Speaker 2>But I soon realized that if you're going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a professor, you don't really have any control about where

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<v Speaker 2>you live. And I knew from the time I was

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<v Speaker 2>a very young kid that I wanted to move to

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<v Speaker 2>New York. My mom had a subscription New York Magazine

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<v Speaker 2>and I would read it, and I would read all

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<v Speaker 2>the new journalism and Gale Green's restaurant reviews and Tom Wolfe,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, ALLEGI, yeah, exact this is for me.

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<v Speaker 2>So once I realized that I could end up like

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<v Speaker 2>it Wisconsin or wherever an academic, I was like, I

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<v Speaker 2>want to do the law. And I went to law school,

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<v Speaker 2>still not one hundred percent sure, but then I kind

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<v Speaker 2>of fell in love with the not so much the

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<v Speaker 2>school part of law school, but the courtroom part, because

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<v Speaker 2>I would go and watch trials and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you are there, what year do you enter

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<v Speaker 1>Columbia Law School?

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<v Speaker 2>So I entered Columbia Law School eighty a graduate college,

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<v Speaker 2>in eighty eight. They used to call me straight through.

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<v Speaker 2>I should have taken time off. I didn't take your

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<v Speaker 2>time off.

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<v Speaker 1>So you go. You start Columbia Law School in eighty eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Up by Columbia Crime was incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the reason I asked that is because what was

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<v Speaker 1>law school like for a woman back then? Did you

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<v Speaker 1>find it was different than it is now?

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<v Speaker 2>And now I teach the I just taught my class yesterday. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it was. There were much many fewer women

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<v Speaker 2>in the firms, for sure. In New York there were

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. You know, when I went to Paul Weiss,

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<v Speaker 2>there was one woman litigation partner who's now a judge.

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<v Speaker 2>And they made me partner a year early with another

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<v Speaker 2>woman because they didn't have anyone, partly because they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>they need to get someone partners quick, and there weren't

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of role models out there, that's for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>I read, well, you had your classes with people in

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<v Speaker 1>the firms you worked in. Was it a situation where

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, with men do it, it's fine, but if

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<v Speaker 1>women do it, they're apparently it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was that for sure. He's passed away. So I can

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<v Speaker 2>say this. I had the former head of my firm

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<v Speaker 2>tell me one day that I was a bulldog, and

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<v Speaker 2>first of all, I felt like saying, well, maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>meant bull dyke, Like I'm not sure what you mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>with bulldog wethink that I said? But second of all, like,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a litigator, Like what are you saying? That's what

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<v Speaker 2>we do? So there that was definitely an issue throughout

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<v Speaker 2>the profession. It's it's gotten better, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>When you decided to go to law school. When you

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<v Speaker 1>were done, was it worth it? Did it turn out

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<v Speaker 1>to be satisfy this thing you wanted about dwelling in courtrooms?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I think the idea, I mean, the

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<v Speaker 2>great gift of being a lawyer and having the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of career of had and being able to work at

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<v Speaker 2>firms with all their problems. But who taught me so

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<v Speaker 2>many things is the ability to actually change things in

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<v Speaker 2>our society in a way that very few people can.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can really make a difference not only

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<v Speaker 2>to your clients but to causes in the United States

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<v Speaker 2>if you bring the right case at the right time

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<v Speaker 2>and rage equality. Yeah, when there's the perfect example. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in Paul Weiss where I started, really that

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<v Speaker 2>culture was so strong in the litigation department. Arthur Lyman

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<v Speaker 2>and Marty London were great heads of the departments, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's how they practice, and that's how they taught me

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<v Speaker 2>how to practice.

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<v Speaker 1>When you take a case, what just makes you decide

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to take the case? What do you look for?

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<v Speaker 2>So if it's a case where I think it's very

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<v Speaker 2>likely to go all the way to trial, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's probably not that different than what you look at

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<v Speaker 2>very much thinking about how is this witness going to appear,

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<v Speaker 2>how is she going to this person going to appears

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<v Speaker 2>a witness? How credible is their story? What do they

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<v Speaker 2>have that corroborates their story, What are the weaknesses of

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<v Speaker 2>the story, and I kind of put it all together

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<v Speaker 2>in some weird Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean Egene did this show, and she would

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<v Speaker 1>be as I've heard referred to in like movies of

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<v Speaker 1>the thirties and forties, she would be a flibberty gibbet.

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<v Speaker 1>She's a very kinetic woman.

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<v Speaker 2>You can say that again.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she's like a bird out of the cage and

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<v Speaker 1>she's all over the place. What were your concerns about

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<v Speaker 1>that in terms of her as a witness.

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<v Speaker 2>So she came into There were two things that immediately

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<v Speaker 2>I thought that they were. On the plus, I won

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have to tell you. I mean, she's this

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful woman, so when you're having a woman who's alleging

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<v Speaker 2>that someone assaulted her, I mean it was totally credible

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<v Speaker 2>that Donald Trump would find her attractive. So that was good.

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<v Speaker 2>And she was very articulate, and I thought she'd be

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<v Speaker 2>able to be charming in the courtroom, which she ultimately was.

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<v Speaker 2>The other thing that's me was that the story was

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<v Speaker 2>so kooky, like the details of it that she went

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<v Speaker 2>in to Berndurf Goodman and he said, let's go shopping,

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<v Speaker 2>and they went up to the lingerie department in the evening.

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<v Speaker 2>No one was the stories. If you wanted to make

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<v Speaker 2>up a story about Donald Trump sexually assaulting you, that

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<v Speaker 2>would not be the story you would make up. And then,

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<v Speaker 2>of course she told her two close friends within the

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<v Speaker 2>next forty eight hours. The donald sides, of course, were A.

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<v Speaker 2>It was Donald Trump. B. It's generally very very hard

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<v Speaker 2>for women to prove sexual assaults, especially one that took

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<v Speaker 2>place pretty sure it was the spring of nineteen ninety six,

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<v Speaker 2>those many years ago. She she is a very kinetic

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<v Speaker 2>human being, and we had to work I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>thought she was great in the courtroom, but we had

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<v Speaker 2>to talk and work with her about kind of how

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<v Speaker 2>to testify as opposed to how to kind of talk

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<v Speaker 2>as a journalist. She has a tendency to become a

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<v Speaker 2>journalist all the time and to ask people questions, and

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<v Speaker 2>we had to keep saying, oh, no, no, you have to

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<v Speaker 2>answer questions. Now you can't ask the questions. I think

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<v Speaker 2>she doesn't want talk about herself, so she'd rather be

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<v Speaker 2>a drunk. I have to say, my colleagues at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>no one thought it was a good case. Other than me,

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<v Speaker 2>they were very well, what was their logic so long

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<v Speaker 2>ago there wasn't any physical evidence. I mean, she'd have

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<v Speaker 2>this dress, but the likelihood that there was anything.

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<v Speaker 1>That was going to do it wasn't the black dress, like

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<v Speaker 1>Monica Lewinsky.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she actually said, well it wasn't. It wasn't. She

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<v Speaker 2>saved her dress, but not to prove anything. She saved

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<v Speaker 2>it because it was a Donna Karen Black, very expensive dress,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was like, this is too good of a dress.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not getting rid of it. So she put it

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<v Speaker 2>in the back of her closet. She never wore again.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, of course, I'm of the school having done this

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<v Speaker 1>whole Trump stick on SNL for quite a while, for

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<v Speaker 1>four years, that first four years. For me, everything that

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<v Speaker 1>could be possibly said about Trump has already been said.

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<v Speaker 1>And anybody talking about Trump anymore other than in actual

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<v Speaker 1>facts and journalism is a waste of time. When you're

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<v Speaker 1>in there. He was in the courtroom and you got

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<v Speaker 1>to examine him.

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<v Speaker 2>None in the courtroom examined him.

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<v Speaker 1>At Marlago, you did, You did deposition with him, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>which it was depicitioning. So he never testified in a trial.

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<v Speaker 2>He had the option to. The judge gave him until

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<v Speaker 2>to just change his mind, until five o'clock first, the

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<v Speaker 2>judge said ten o'clock on Sunday.

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<v Speaker 1>But you can't make them testify. I thought in civil

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<v Speaker 1>cases you could. I'm gonna talk to him, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I was able to use the deposition video though, because

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't testify, we were able to play some of

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<v Speaker 2>the most telling I would say, excerpts of the deposition

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<v Speaker 2>for the jury. Who saw them and.

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<v Speaker 1>When you had and you questioned him for how long

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<v Speaker 1>in mar a Lago?

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<v Speaker 2>Probably seven hours.

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<v Speaker 1>In one session or a couple sessions one session once.

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<v Speaker 2>I did it twice one it was another case I

0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.600
<v Speaker 2>had against him, a fraud case that ultimately didn't survive.

0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.520
<v Speaker 1>And then in the case with her, how did you

0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:48.760
<v Speaker 1>find him in terms of because he's obviously very cagy,

0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.320
<v Speaker 1>He's a guy that has sidestepped a lot of serious

0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.880
<v Speaker 1>problems with his wits and his guts and his madness perhaps,

0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.040
<v Speaker 1>but how did you find him?

0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.840
<v Speaker 2>So? I had a strategy I learned actually as a

0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.120
<v Speaker 2>young lawyer, kind of being in a minority and having

0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:04.800
<v Speaker 2>people think about you differently as a woman, which I

0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.280
<v Speaker 2>call the spider strategy. What I mean by that is

0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I kind of act like I don't know what I'm

0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.760
<v Speaker 2>doing and then for a long time and then I'll

0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.439
<v Speaker 2>finet the end, I'll kind of pounce. And so with him,

0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.959
<v Speaker 2>I was very polite. I spent the first two hours

0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:22.320
<v Speaker 2>asking him questions that he could brag about. So, for example,

0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.160
<v Speaker 2>we know it was a Thursday night. It happened for

0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.560
<v Speaker 2>two reasons. One that's when Berdruf Gribbin stayed late one

0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.120
<v Speaker 2>night a week back then. And two that's when the

0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.560
<v Speaker 2>writer's table met at Elaine's. And the truth of it

0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:35.640
<v Speaker 2>is Egene was going to go to dinner there afterwards,

0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.520
<v Speaker 2>and I know the whole thing began. She's admitted this

0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:39.480
<v Speaker 2>because she thought it would be a great story. Oh,

0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.520
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell my friends this joke, a story about how

0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.720
<v Speaker 2>I helped Trump shop for a gift. And so I

0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.080
<v Speaker 2>got him to say, I said, oh, you used to

0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:47.840
<v Speaker 2>like going to Elaine's. Yes, you went there and with

0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Havana very often. Yes, And you must have sat at

0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.040
<v Speaker 2>the Writer's table, didn't you. And He's like, oh, yes,

0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.320
<v Speaker 2>sat there many times. Like you could get him to

0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.040
<v Speaker 2>say same thing that he'd been at a Saturay Night Live.

0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.600
<v Speaker 2>She you know, Egene wrote for season you were Night

0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Live a lot. Yes, you could kind of get him

0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:06.120
<v Speaker 2>to admit, I don't think you understod I was doing,

0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.360
<v Speaker 2>but that he was. He had every reason to know

0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.240
<v Speaker 2>who Egene was. Like you, they overlapped in certain ways

0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.160
<v Speaker 2>in New York society and ways that he definitely knew

0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.960
<v Speaker 2>who she was. And I kind of just loaned him

0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:17.360
<v Speaker 2>into it.

0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:19.960
<v Speaker 1>And she was a woman in terms of her physical

0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.240
<v Speaker 1>composition that certainly he's she would he would make it

0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:25.680
<v Speaker 1>his business to meet someone like that.

0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.280
<v Speaker 2>And as he said it, the thing he identified her

0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.680
<v Speaker 2>as Marvel Maples, they did look a lot alike. The

0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:31.720
<v Speaker 2>truth is, back then.

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.320
<v Speaker 1>When you have a contingency case. In my cases, my

0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:42.559
<v Speaker 1>civil cases we've had, there are support expenses, photo copying,

0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.920
<v Speaker 1>all this stuff. Paralegals, I mean, they're they're the people

0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 1>say again it's a fortune. Well, the person who was

0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.680
<v Speaker 1>my attorney, we had a contingency arrangement, but not for

0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 1>those expenses. So they're handing you, even though you're not

0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 1>paying the major bill, you're getting handed hundreds of thousands

0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.840
<v Speaker 1>of dollars of this this stuff. Now with you, did

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.200
<v Speaker 1>you do that? Did you have to pass on to her? No?

0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.160
<v Speaker 2>We had very long all. No, don to Eddy, there

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.040
<v Speaker 2>has become very controversial. Trump is obsessed with this. Reied

0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.239
<v Speaker 2>Hoffman stepped in and agreed to pay the outside expenses.

0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 2>And he was he's the guy started linked in a

0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.800
<v Speaker 2>technic and he did why. He thought it was a

0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.600
<v Speaker 2>good case and he thought it would be you know,

0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.760
<v Speaker 2>important for people to see what happened, and so he agreed.

0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.040
<v Speaker 2>He had a foundation that was doing kind of Trump

0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.120
<v Speaker 2>stuff and they funded almost all that's the cost the

0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 2>most expensive which were security of course, right, because when

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.079
<v Speaker 2>every time we went to court, we needed bodyguard and

0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 2>all that stuff.

0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>For her for her Wow. So it's to be assumed

0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.280
<v Speaker 1>because you've got five million in one judgment in eighty

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.000
<v Speaker 1>three whatever, and the other one.

0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 2>She's about I think she's I'm going to knock on wood.

0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.200
<v Speaker 2>I think we're going to get the first five right,

0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.320
<v Speaker 2>and we've waived our contingency on that, so she will

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:55.719
<v Speaker 2>get the whole entire five million.

0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Right, and then it's down the road where they're going

0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:58.240
<v Speaker 1>to get the eighty front.

0:13:58.320 --> 0:13:59.560
<v Speaker 2>That's a little bit of a bigger bet.

0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 1>You do a contingency, Is it assumed that there are

0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.400
<v Speaker 1>times you don't win, Yeah, and you have to eat

0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.359
<v Speaker 1>that call those months and months of trial.

0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.160
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of these firms that take on these

0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.240
<v Speaker 2>huge continuencies that last years and years, they have to

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.079
<v Speaker 2>fund it all that, and sometimes they have this thing

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:18.599
<v Speaker 2>called litigation finance.

0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 1>Where right people invest in the case and they buy

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 1>a piece.

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I've never done that, but.

0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:23.840
<v Speaker 1>You never have. What do you what's your opinion of that?

0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 2>I think it can be very helpful. I just I

0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:27.720
<v Speaker 2>would rather get the whole thing at the end. So

0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm willing to bet on my own risk.

0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Right, I'm going to pivot to me two times up.

0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, if Trump weren't president, if you weren't someone

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 1>who was empowered politically by so many people, he'd probably

0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:42.960
<v Speaker 1>be in jail right now, don't you think.

0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's not one hundred. I mean, first,

0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.360
<v Speaker 2>certainly the special prosecutor would have put him in jail

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.600
<v Speaker 2>for sure had that happened, because I mean, he's been

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.600
<v Speaker 2>testifying today and it's incredibly powerful. Jack Smith, Look, I

0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:00.520
<v Speaker 2>think eaching it would be surprised to me. Let me

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.440
<v Speaker 2>put this way, that Egene were that Egene was the

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.120
<v Speaker 2>only one. I mean, other women have said that he

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 2>assaulted them. I assume it's true. I assume there are

0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 2>women out there who are just too afraid for good

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 2>reason to come forward. I was actually down at the

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Manhattan DA last night until ten o'clock with a client

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.400
<v Speaker 2>terrible story domestic violence, and I was talking to the

0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 2>young prosecutors and I said to them, you know, Egene

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.080
<v Speaker 2>was right not to go to you guys in nineteen

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 2>ninety six, like they won't have done it. And he

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 2>was like, no, you're right, they won't have done anything

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.000
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety six, But sooner or later I would

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:30.760
<v Speaker 2>have caught up to him.

0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Apropos of Me two times Up, there are tremendous successes,

0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:41.080
<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, and overdue justice on behalf of people

0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.840
<v Speaker 1>in terms of the ME two times which you know

0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 1>Harvey is the ault obviously, but how do you wait?

0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.320
<v Speaker 1>What what the time ME two times up campaign has

0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:51.880
<v Speaker 1>a complied?

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 2>So I've spent a lot of time thinking about this

0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 2>and how it crashed and burned at the end, and

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.840
<v Speaker 2>why it crashed and burned at the end, and really

0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.560
<v Speaker 2>and then kind of the bad publicity that I got

0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.920
<v Speaker 2>and others involved got. Look, on the one hand, there

0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.880
<v Speaker 2>were people like Harveing others who deserved everything they got.

0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 2>But I do believe, and it actually goes all the

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.400
<v Speaker 2>way back to Russia that we reached a kind of

0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Robespierre period and it actually helped reelect Trump where it

0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 2>was just after collecting heads rather than exercising judgment, seeing

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.760
<v Speaker 2>like the differences understanding nuance, etc. There definitely was a

0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of guillotine aspect to it at its height, and

0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that was a mistake. There's no question that people were hurt.

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.600
<v Speaker 2>There's no question that people who were guilty again, as

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.080
<v Speaker 2>I said, got their just desserts. I've thought a lot

0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.000
<v Speaker 2>about what we could have done to change that. Part

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.120
<v Speaker 2>of me thinks that's human nature when these things happen.

0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 2>But it's terrible, and it's terrible because people who were

0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:58.720
<v Speaker 2>hurt bright. It's terrible because again I think it had

0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 2>a huge impact on reelect in Trump the second time.

0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.240
<v Speaker 2>The other thing I think about a lot is that

0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.639
<v Speaker 2>at times up we were dependent on celebrities for our power.

0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.119
<v Speaker 2>And that was great. It gave us great power. But

0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 2>we failed to realize is that, and this is understandable,

0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 2>celebrities don't have a lot of tolerance for controversy, right,

0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.080
<v Speaker 2>So the minute things started to get a little iffy,

0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, people started fleeing the ship very very quickly,

0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and it was hard to hold it together.

0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.639
<v Speaker 1>I remember seeing people individual people meeting with them, meeting

0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:33.720
<v Speaker 1>them with in studios, very much like this Keeler Charlie Rose.

0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Not everybody was pressing a button to lock the door

0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.000
<v Speaker 1>of their office at NBC to prevent you from getting out.

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.760
<v Speaker 1>There were gradations of this, and I felt that a

0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.639
<v Speaker 1>lot of people got washed up in the sweep there unfairly.

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.360
<v Speaker 1>Look there people who didn't deserve to be canceled. I

0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 1>they need some counseling.

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.720
<v Speaker 2>The Times tried to cancel me. So two summers ago,

0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 2>there was a reporter at the Times who spent ten months,

0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.320
<v Speaker 2>literally ten months, calling everyone who's ever worked with me,

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:03.639
<v Speaker 2>everyone I know, saying what's the dirt on Robbie Kaplan,

0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.240
<v Speaker 2>which is pretty insane because I'm kind of boring. There's

0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 2>like not a lot of dirt on me. And she

0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.399
<v Speaker 2>wrote this very nasty piece and it really gave me.

0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.560
<v Speaker 2>I have to say, it was a very painful period,

0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:19.160
<v Speaker 2>but it really gave me an understanding of the damage

0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.399
<v Speaker 2>that could be done. I mean it was at the

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.920
<v Speaker 2>second Trump trial. I'm standing there closing to the jury.

0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I have Trump seven feet to my left, and I

0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.720
<v Speaker 2>have this New York Times reporter seven feet to my right,

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:31.679
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, I don't even just wait wait

0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.159
<v Speaker 2>to look. I was like, this is insane. So it

0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.119
<v Speaker 2>gave me a lot more sympathy and empathy for how

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.640
<v Speaker 2>damaging that can be. Again, I think we've moved away

0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.760
<v Speaker 2>from it. But the problem with social media is it

0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:44.199
<v Speaker 2>just it encourages it.

0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:54.879
<v Speaker 1>Lawyer Robbie Kaplan. If you enjoy conversations with lawyers representing

0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.840
<v Speaker 1>controversial clients, check out my episode with Dean Strang the

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.320
<v Speaker 1>defense Attorney Fee to the documentary Making a Murderer.

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.359
<v Speaker 3>This happens a client comes in, potential client comes in,

0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 3>You meet with him, he lays it all out, and

0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.600
<v Speaker 3>you know, my reaction is, look, you're cooked. They've got you,

0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.919
<v Speaker 3>and they're gonna want you to cooperate against others, and

0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.480
<v Speaker 3>you probably should. That's probably your best option right at

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:22.040
<v Speaker 3>this point.

0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 1>And I don't do that. I'm not the right lawyer

0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 1>for that. To hear more of my conversation with attorney

0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Dean Strang, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.520
<v Speaker 1>the break, Robbie Kaplan tells the story of taking her

0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.320
<v Speaker 1>seven year old son to the White House and his

0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:56.880
<v Speaker 1>interaction with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I'm Alec Baldwin, and

0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:01.160
<v Speaker 1>this is here's the thing. Robbie Kaplan received her graduate

0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.640
<v Speaker 1>degree from Columbia Law School and went on to join

0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:09.080
<v Speaker 1>the law firm Paul Weiss. While at the firm, Kaplan

0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.960
<v Speaker 1>would eventually take on her alma mater as a client. Today,

0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:17.399
<v Speaker 1>Caplin teaches a yearly seminar at Columbia University's Law School

0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:22.280
<v Speaker 1>as an adjunct professor. I was curious how her experience

0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.679
<v Speaker 1>with Columbia has changed over the years and how she

0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.880
<v Speaker 1>would describe law students today.

0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, it just certain my new class yesterday.

0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:31.399
<v Speaker 1>What do you teach?

0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.800
<v Speaker 2>It's a very sexy topic, advanced civil procedure. I'll have

0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:39.199
<v Speaker 2>a question for someone actually signs up for that. I

0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 2>think they're more serious than we were, for sure.

0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Really why because the world saw.

0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.080
<v Speaker 2>Grim Really that's a sense.

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Do they express that to you in some ways.

0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.120
<v Speaker 2>A little bit? I mean, it was just the first

0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 2>class yesterday, But last year I taught it too, and

0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.359
<v Speaker 2>they seem, I mean, we had some interesting discussions about it,

0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.840
<v Speaker 2>but they seem there's not a lot of hope for them.

0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.800
<v Speaker 2>About it's sad they can achieve. Even talking about courts

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.520
<v Speaker 2>and cases and kind of how the system has changed

0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.879
<v Speaker 2>over time is a little bit depressant. You want to

0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:08.000
<v Speaker 2>hear my best White House story?

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Go right ahead.

0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.440
<v Speaker 2>So after Windsor, we get invited to the White House

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.720
<v Speaker 2>for it was the Honka party, I think, and I

0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.600
<v Speaker 2>said to my our son was about seven or eight,

0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.680
<v Speaker 2>And I said to my wife, like, should we bring him?

0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.520
<v Speaker 2>He was pretty hyperactive as a kid. I said, well,

0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.520
<v Speaker 2>bring him. I said, we'll probably never get invited to

0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.560
<v Speaker 2>the White House again, so let's bring him. And so

0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.760
<v Speaker 2>I said to him, my name is Jacob, said Jacob, listen,

0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.359
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna go. You're gonna have to go through all

0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.120
<v Speaker 2>the security. If it gets to be too much for you,

0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:37.679
<v Speaker 2>I promise you we can leave. So he was like fine.

0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.439
<v Speaker 2>We went and he did fine. He had a little

0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.000
<v Speaker 2>tie on. He was adorable. He did fine for about

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.040
<v Speaker 2>the first hour, and then it did start to get

0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.119
<v Speaker 2>super crowded, and he said, okay, you told me we

0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.920
<v Speaker 2>could go, and I said fine. So as we're walking out,

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Justice Ginsburg is walking in and I said to Jacob,

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:55.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, okay, let's go over and say hello to

0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:00.080
<v Speaker 2>Justice Ginsburg, and I am not exaggerating. Jacob had a

0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.640
<v Speaker 2>temper tantrum on the buckles of her Faeragama shoes. He's

0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.080
<v Speaker 2>literally on the floor on her feet having a snappertentrum.

0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I have a look on my face like I'd rather

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 2>this happened to anyone else on the planet other than you,

0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:15.879
<v Speaker 2>Justice s Kinsburth, And she looked at me. It was

0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.920
<v Speaker 2>the kindest thing on the one She said. Listen, She said,

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.560
<v Speaker 2>I have a son. He's exactly your age his childhood

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:24.680
<v Speaker 2>was Was he acted like that when he was a kid,

0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.520
<v Speaker 2>she said, But he's now professor at Chicago and he's

0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:29.880
<v Speaker 2>married with kids, and don't worry at all. Be fun.

0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.960
<v Speaker 1>My kids are in a face now where we went

0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:36.000
<v Speaker 1>shopping for ski coats and buying them, and I say, well,

0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:38.120
<v Speaker 1>I think this one looks good on Newarthi and my kids.

0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:39.439
<v Speaker 1>One of my sons turned to me, he goes, what

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.119
<v Speaker 1>do you know you're from Long Islands?

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh, my god, they're all born.

0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:44.399
<v Speaker 1>And raised in the city. He goes, what do you

0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:44.879
<v Speaker 1>know you're.

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:46.760
<v Speaker 2>From my sonset My son's version of that as you're

0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.040
<v Speaker 2>from the last century. Oh that happened in the last century.

0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now civil procedure in terms of the

0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:56.800
<v Speaker 1>type of civil law you would attend to, don't you

0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:59.720
<v Speaker 1>think there's some need for some reform to streamline that process.

0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.399
<v Speaker 1>And I'll allow judges to sit there and go, hey, mister,

0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.840
<v Speaker 1>you're full of shit, get out of here. Why can't

0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:07.119
<v Speaker 1>we streamline that process.

0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Exactly what we talked about yesterday actually in the first

0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:12.840
<v Speaker 2>class of my seminar. And I do think that, you know,

0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:15.920
<v Speaker 2>what happens is we keep making procedural rules to kind

0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.399
<v Speaker 2>of screen out the bad cases and then their unintended

0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.360
<v Speaker 2>consequences to those rules, and they don't end up achieving

0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:25.879
<v Speaker 2>what we want them to achieve. Good judges, and there

0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.280
<v Speaker 2>are many good judges, especially in New York, especially federal

0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:31.320
<v Speaker 2>judges in New York, kind of do it on their own,

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 2>you know. They, especially if they've been on the bench

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:34.959
<v Speaker 2>a long time, they have a very good sense of

0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:36.840
<v Speaker 2>what's a good case and what's not a good case,

0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:39.120
<v Speaker 2>and what are the weaknesses in a case, and they

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:43.000
<v Speaker 2>will kind of maneuver the case, I think appropriately if

0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 2>it's a bad case to get it dismissed, and if

0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:47.479
<v Speaker 2>it's a good case, to push it along. People have

0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:49.359
<v Speaker 2>debated different ways to do this. Should we have different

0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:51.919
<v Speaker 2>courts for different kind of cases? Different judges only do

0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:54.920
<v Speaker 2>one kind of case? Should we have different courts based

0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.840
<v Speaker 2>on how much money is at stake? In federal courts?

0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:00.680
<v Speaker 2>All you need is seventy five thousand dollars hasn't changed

0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:03.040
<v Speaker 2>for decades and probably is way too low.

0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 1>Seventy five thousand dollars for what to bring.

0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:08.400
<v Speaker 2>A diversity case in federal court. There's people from different states.

0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 2>You have to be from different states, and you have

0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:12.959
<v Speaker 2>to seek more than seventy five thousand dollars. When that

0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:14.880
<v Speaker 2>was first past, seventy five thousand dollars was a lot

0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.440
<v Speaker 2>of money. Today it's not. And there's been no kind

0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.520
<v Speaker 2>of way to update that, or Congress hasn't. But sure,

0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:22.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's something that needs to be thought of.

0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:23.800
<v Speaker 2>We have a lot of other legal problems to deal

0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.040
<v Speaker 2>with and that Congress has to look at, but that

0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:28.320
<v Speaker 2>would be one on my agenda as well. And the

0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:29.680
<v Speaker 2>courts are overwhelmed.

0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:32.600
<v Speaker 1>Do you find you have a talent for reading juries?

0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.560
<v Speaker 2>I think I've gotten good at it. Yeah, it's hard,

0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.000
<v Speaker 2>and the minutes before a jury, like a you know

0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 2>when they say they've come in with a verdict when

0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:41.560
<v Speaker 2>you're waiting. Every time it happens, I think I'm going

0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:42.760
<v Speaker 2>to have a heart attack right there.

0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:43.720
<v Speaker 1>I can't stand it.

0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:47.280
<v Speaker 2>We had I did this big case against the guys

0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 2>who were responsible for the violence in Charlottesville the rally

0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 2>in August twenty seventeen. It was during COVID and it

0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:55.720
<v Speaker 2>was very hard to read the jury in that case

0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:58.480
<v Speaker 2>because they everyone had to wear masks. The juries were

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 2>sitting kind of where the audience would sit, like two

0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:04.400
<v Speaker 2>jurors to a bench. But there was one guy in

0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the back. There were very strict rules about wearing a mask,

0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:11.119
<v Speaker 2>and he constantly his masks would constantly go down, and

0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:13.560
<v Speaker 2>I would say the judge found him there, like, the

0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:15.680
<v Speaker 2>guy's not following the rules, And then the guy must

0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:16.959
<v Speaker 2>have figured it out because he would kind of give

0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:20.200
<v Speaker 2>me nasty looks. And the best thing that ever happened

0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:22.960
<v Speaker 2>is the morning we were driving over the court to

0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.080
<v Speaker 2>find out for them to start deliberating, the judge said,

0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.520
<v Speaker 2>it turns out a kid at this guy's school got COVID.

0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:32.359
<v Speaker 2>The guy wasn't vaccinated, and the judge said, I'm letting

0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.760
<v Speaker 2>you go. And I was like, oh, thank god. So

0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 2>things like that really matter. Actually, whether people are vaccinated

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:43.200
<v Speaker 2>is a great indicator of whether the Yeah, well, in

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:44.560
<v Speaker 2>New York you are well. I don't know if you

0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:47.040
<v Speaker 2>are now, but you were for the last several years, and.

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.720
<v Speaker 1>And proof that they were vaccinating indicates what to.

0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.840
<v Speaker 2>You, rationality.

0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:55.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to remember that, honestly, I'm going to remember

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:56.840
<v Speaker 1>that when I got to New Mexico in a couple

0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:57.120
<v Speaker 1>of years.

0:25:57.240 --> 0:25:59.120
<v Speaker 2>You don't want to vaccinated jurors, trust.

0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:03.679
<v Speaker 1>Me, I don't want to. Okay, Often these cases settle,

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.560
<v Speaker 1>and preferably this vast majority cases, the vast majority. I'm

0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.080
<v Speaker 1>to show how many of the settlements are spurred by

0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:13.119
<v Speaker 1>the judges of themselves or by your opposing counsel or both.

0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Did the judge ever say to you, hey, let's cut

0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:16.800
<v Speaker 1>the shit. You settle this now.

0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. A lot of judges do that, and I think

0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:20.000
<v Speaker 2>that's a good thing. I think judges should be.

0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:24.840
<v Speaker 1>Doing that now when you are in settlements, what's the strategy? Meaning,

0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:27.159
<v Speaker 1>how did you get to eighty three million with the

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Trump Well it was a jury verdict.

0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:31.439
<v Speaker 2>That was a jury verdict. But that's all his fault.

0:26:31.520 --> 0:26:33.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he sat in that course. So the first

0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>trial he didn't show up at all. He was in

0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Scotland at his golf course. So the second trial he

0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:41.560
<v Speaker 2>did show up because that one was about money. But

0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:45.680
<v Speaker 2>he acted like a fourteen year old delinquent the whole trial,

0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:48.240
<v Speaker 2>and the jury saw it. And then every day he

0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:50.560
<v Speaker 2>would leave the courtroom go to I think we was

0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:53.000
<v Speaker 2>going to some office downtown at some trumplone building. It

0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:55.280
<v Speaker 2>he would give a press conference and he would defeye

0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:58.240
<v Speaker 2>Egen again. So I would walk in next morning, I'd say,

0:26:58.400 --> 0:26:59.400
<v Speaker 2>he did it again, Judge.

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Here's the video, and it's just who was that judge?

0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:05.920
<v Speaker 2>His name is Kaplin, no relation, but he really every

0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:09.240
<v Speaker 2>penny of the Lewis Kaplan is his name.

0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Not the one that adjudicated the Steve Donziger case with.

0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:16.080
<v Speaker 2>The same judge. Same judge.

0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:19.000
<v Speaker 1>Donz is a friend of mine who's on this show.

0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:22.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah anyway, okay, no comment there. He was.

0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:23.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm a big fan of Judge Kaplin.

0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:26.920
<v Speaker 1>I wish I could say the same, but the I

0:27:26.960 --> 0:27:29.880
<v Speaker 1>find people. I was at a dinner party and at

0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:32.520
<v Speaker 1>the table with us was this guy that was a

0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:35.200
<v Speaker 1>judge of federal judge and I tried and I did.

0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:38.440
<v Speaker 1>I've arrested myself from asking him a lot of questions

0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:43.679
<v Speaker 1>like don't you feel just a suffocating burden to judge

0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:46.720
<v Speaker 1>people and to make decisions they're going to change their lives?

0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:51.879
<v Speaker 1>What's the psychological training? What's the emotional or behavioral training

0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:55.120
<v Speaker 1>they give you in school to master that where you're

0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:57.440
<v Speaker 1>gonna go in and say you're gonna go none zero.

0:27:57.840 --> 0:27:59.240
<v Speaker 1>So I wonder if some people must drive them.

0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:02.439
<v Speaker 2>So one of our young associates just put in. We

0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:03.919
<v Speaker 2>asked for their comments and they said, look, I think

0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 2>there should be some training on this, and I was like,

0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:07.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, she has a good idea. So we're actually

0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:10.520
<v Speaker 2>bringing in a psychologist, I think in the next couple

0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:14.320
<v Speaker 2>of months to talk to our people about dealing with

0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:16.520
<v Speaker 2>these cases where the people have experienced great trauma and

0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:17.679
<v Speaker 2>that itself is hard to do.

0:28:18.200 --> 0:28:20.760
<v Speaker 1>I have a job I created for myself, and I'm

0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.480
<v Speaker 1>only half kidding, but I'll watch TV and they'll show

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:25.280
<v Speaker 1>a segment of a trial and I'll go, you got

0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:27.520
<v Speaker 1>to be kidding me. You went to law school and

0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:29.439
<v Speaker 1>you study the law, and that's how you present your

0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:32.399
<v Speaker 1>case in court. I want to be the acting coach

0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:35.359
<v Speaker 1>for your period of the litigators. I'm not kidding. I

0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:37.000
<v Speaker 1>want to say to them, I want to take their speeches.

0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 1>I want to take their summations and say, okay, you

0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 1>want to motor through this, to only take the earned pause,

0:28:42.800 --> 0:28:44.800
<v Speaker 1>you go, you go. The audience is way ahead of it.

0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:48.920
<v Speaker 1>But boom, boom boom is like a horse stop. And

0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.960
<v Speaker 1>then you lay this line out real slow, you squeeze it.

0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:55.120
<v Speaker 1>Because I see people who speak in court and they're horrible.

0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:58.160
<v Speaker 1>Their acting skills are dreadful, and it is a bit

0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:00.080
<v Speaker 1>of acting, so.

0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.720
<v Speaker 2>As I get to be great. So in the Carol case,

0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:05.480
<v Speaker 2>she told these two people right away, one her friend,

0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Lisa Burnbock, and a couple days later another friend, remember

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Carol Martin the old newscast took her friend. Yeah, so

0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Carol had some texts that she had to produce where

0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Egene was getting on her nerves and she's talking to

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:18.520
<v Speaker 2>her daughter about how Egene's getting her nurs and they

0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 2>thought these were great the other side, and so during

0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:24.680
<v Speaker 2>my closing I raised the issue of the text and

0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:26.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, I looked at the women jerors, I said,

0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, sometimes it's just the way we talk about

0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:32.480
<v Speaker 2>our friends, and they got it. Like they got it immediately.

0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:34.280
<v Speaker 2>That's just how people act sometimes.

0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Lawyer Robbie Kaplan, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a

0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:43.200
<v Speaker 1>friend and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on

0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:48.040
<v Speaker 1>the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:52.080
<v Speaker 1>When we come back, Robbie Caplan tells us how being

0:29:52.200 --> 0:29:56.040
<v Speaker 1>too honest on a form prevented her from becoming a prosecutor.

0:30:08.160 --> 0:30:11.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. Robbie

0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Kaplan was a partner at the law firm Paul Weiss Rifkin,

0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Wharton and Garrison for eighteen years. At the firm, she

0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:23.960
<v Speaker 1>represented clients ranging from JP Morgan Chase to Edith Windsor

0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:28.360
<v Speaker 1>in the landmark Defensive Marriage Act Supreme Court case. I

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:33.000
<v Speaker 1>was curious why, after eighteen years and much success, Kaplin

0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:35.800
<v Speaker 1>decided to leave Paul Weiss and start her own firm,

0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:38.160
<v Speaker 1>and if this was always her plan.

0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:41.920
<v Speaker 2>So I had an early date with my wife. We

0:30:42.040 --> 0:30:44.240
<v Speaker 2>just met each other and we're having dinner at some

0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:47.560
<v Speaker 2>QB strow in the village, and I start telling her that, oh,

0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:49.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, when they were people get it to be

0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:51.880
<v Speaker 2>a certain agent. Paul Weiss. They moved their offices to

0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:54.000
<v Speaker 2>like smaller offices, but I think that would be okay.

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:56.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm thirty telling her this, and my wife looks at me, like,

0:30:57.000 --> 0:30:59.560
<v Speaker 2>have you lost your mind? Like you're thirty years old,

0:30:59.560 --> 0:31:02.160
<v Speaker 2>you're thinking about what office you're going to be in

0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:04.440
<v Speaker 2>when you retire. Paul Weiss, I thought I'd spent my

0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:08.720
<v Speaker 2>life there. What changed the business of law firms like

0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Paul Weis and such as Paul White. All the big

0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:15.080
<v Speaker 2>firms got bigger and bigger. The corporate departments got bigger

0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:18.480
<v Speaker 2>and bigger. Paul weize, that's been quite dramatic. And what

0:31:18.520 --> 0:31:20.600
<v Speaker 2>that meant for the legation department is the kinds of

0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:23.520
<v Speaker 2>cases they were able to do got narrow and narrower.

0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:26.560
<v Speaker 2>So it got to the point where the only cases

0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:29.320
<v Speaker 2>that Paul Weiss was really wanted to or able to do,

0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:34.560
<v Speaker 2>are these huge cases with five partners and thirty associates.

0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:36.880
<v Speaker 2>And I could do those cases. I did plenty of them,

0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:38.640
<v Speaker 2>but I wanted to be able to do more, have

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 2>more diversity, both in the size of case and in

0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:43.640
<v Speaker 2>the kind of case. I told this guy, my mentor,

0:31:44.240 --> 0:31:46.120
<v Speaker 2>Marty London, who was an old partner, that my goal

0:31:46.120 --> 0:31:48.640
<v Speaker 2>is to have his practice, and I think I've finally

0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:49.800
<v Speaker 2>gotten It's taken me a long time.

0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:51.520
<v Speaker 1>But you had your own firm for how long?

0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:54.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've had two versions of my own firms, so

0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:55.280
<v Speaker 2>since twenty seventeen.

0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, the first one you started when you left Paul White, Yeah,

0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:00.200
<v Speaker 1>which you then left that as well. Correct, why got

0:32:00.240 --> 0:32:03.400
<v Speaker 1>too big? So again you had created a firm. So

0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:05.560
<v Speaker 1>was that an inevitability in the business.

0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:08.080
<v Speaker 2>No, I was just like, focus on my work and

0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:11.760
<v Speaker 2>really honestly not paying attention to the firm itself that much.

0:32:11.800 --> 0:32:14.120
<v Speaker 2>And it also became too big and too white collar,

0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:16.280
<v Speaker 2>and I don't do white collar work, so it didn't

0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:17.040
<v Speaker 2>make a lot of sense.

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:19.920
<v Speaker 1>So you then then then the third iteration was you

0:32:19.920 --> 0:32:20.840
<v Speaker 1>started another.

0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Firm with a bunch of people from the second firms.

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:24.600
<v Speaker 1>Second firm, how's that going?

0:32:24.680 --> 0:32:27.440
<v Speaker 2>It's fun because everyone I know known a very long time,

0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:30.560
<v Speaker 2>all the partners. We have these incredible group of young

0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:33.920
<v Speaker 2>lawyers working for us. They're amazing, our cases are amazing.

0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:35.720
<v Speaker 2>We're having a lot of fun.

0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.640
<v Speaker 1>When you're in court. This is relates to the question

0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:43.440
<v Speaker 1>about the jury. Can you read a judge too? Oh?

0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:44.200
<v Speaker 2>Definitely, Well, you.

0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Probably have had a history with them, you know them from.

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:48.880
<v Speaker 2>The important thing in any case is that who the judges.

0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:51.440
<v Speaker 2>I hate to say if this is true, and you know,

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:52.920
<v Speaker 2>if there it's a judge, you know, you know how

0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>they are approach to things, how they practice, what their

0:32:54.960 --> 0:32:57.640
<v Speaker 2>attitude is going to be. It's incredibly important. It's not

0:32:57.640 --> 0:32:59.760
<v Speaker 2>even that important what it is. It's just important knowing

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 2>what it is, right, because then you could advise the

0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:04.280
<v Speaker 2>client as to how things are likely to progress.

0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.880
<v Speaker 1>And without naming names. Obviously, are there judges where you're

0:33:07.960 --> 0:33:10.280
<v Speaker 1>like slightly terrified they have to go into that courtroom

0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:11.600
<v Speaker 1>or concerned, let's.

0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Say in New York, not that many. We have really

0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:16.600
<v Speaker 2>good judges in New York. I was, this is crazy.

0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 2>So during this second trial, Alina Habba, who was the

0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:22.960
<v Speaker 2>lead lawyer who was the USA Traine for New Jersey

0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.760
<v Speaker 2>for like seven minutes, stood up in court I think

0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:27.520
<v Speaker 2>it was the second day, and held her arms like

0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:30.720
<v Speaker 2>this and said, Judge Kaplan, I just want you to

0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:33.160
<v Speaker 2>know I really don't appreciate the way you're speaking to me.

0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:37.160
<v Speaker 2>And I literally almost how a heart attack the idea

0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:40.239
<v Speaker 2>that you would say that to it. Yeah, I mean

0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:41.719
<v Speaker 2>if I had said he would put He would say,

0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:42.800
<v Speaker 2>you're getting put out.

0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:45.240
<v Speaker 1>Why do you think there's all that decorum with the judge?

0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Why do you stand and call him your honor? We're

0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:51.400
<v Speaker 1>not in eighteenth century England here.

0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:53.360
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a good thing because on the surface

0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 2>you're showing respect to that judge, but fundamentally you're showing

0:33:56.800 --> 0:33:59.320
<v Speaker 2>respect for the rule of law. And I wish we

0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:01.600
<v Speaker 2>had a little bit more back for the rural law right.

0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Now, dwindle in your time.

0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's terrible right now. I mean the

0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:09.200
<v Speaker 2>DOJ used to be this great costation, right that always

0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:12.120
<v Speaker 2>told the truth and always took the right position, and

0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:15.800
<v Speaker 2>always cared about consistency, And none of that's true anymore.

0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:18.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, when Trump got into office, I know made note

0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:21.640
<v Speaker 1>of the fact that to a degree or in some metric,

0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:24.719
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't prepared for how many other bad people would

0:34:24.760 --> 0:34:27.879
<v Speaker 1>come with him. I didn't realize this time the well,

0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:29.839
<v Speaker 1>the second term, forget it. But in the first term

0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:31.759
<v Speaker 1>even I remember saying to myself, I didn't know there

0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:34.600
<v Speaker 1>were that many bad people out there who were on

0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 1>some political operatives rolodex. And now when the second term,

0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:39.520
<v Speaker 1>it's like, I.

0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:41.799
<v Speaker 2>Mean, how many prosecutors have quit and dj because they've

0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 2>been asked to do things that they know are wrong.

0:34:43.719 --> 0:34:46.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's it's terrible. I wanted to be a prosecutor.

0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:48.160
<v Speaker 2>Want he still a funny story. So I got an

0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.920
<v Speaker 2>internship when I was in law school to be prosecutor

0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:53.399
<v Speaker 2>Southern District of New York. And this was Bush one

0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:56.799
<v Speaker 2>and you had to fill out a form for security

0:34:57.320 --> 0:34:59.799
<v Speaker 2>and the forum had a pot question. So I go

0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:02.120
<v Speaker 2>to see the professor Columbian and I said, so give

0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:03.480
<v Speaker 2>me advice. What should I do? And he said, you're

0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:07.279
<v Speaker 2>supposed to say experimentally. So the first question was have

0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:11.399
<v Speaker 2>you smoked pot? I wrote yes, semi cola and experimentally.

0:35:11.920 --> 0:35:14.400
<v Speaker 2>The next question was how many times? And I wrote

0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:18.440
<v Speaker 2>twelve plus and the government said, sorry, we're withdrawing your offer.

0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:20.200
<v Speaker 2>And I went to the professor to tell the story.

0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:22.319
<v Speaker 2>He's like, what in the world were you thinking? Right,

0:35:23.200 --> 0:35:25.640
<v Speaker 2>experiment I said, I want to lie, I said.

0:35:25.480 --> 0:35:29.080
<v Speaker 1>My continuing experimentation. I was very You didn't want to lie,

0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:33.440
<v Speaker 1>but you realized that if the question is silly, like

0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:36.840
<v Speaker 1>you say yes, experiment how many times twice, you should

0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:38.359
<v Speaker 1>have lied. You should have lied in that appl because

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:40.239
<v Speaker 1>you're too bunch of a girl scout to do.

0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:41.879
<v Speaker 2>I want to get my hands on that form somehow,

0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to try to foid it.

0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:45.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, cut, yeah you should. What kind of work does

0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:45.759
<v Speaker 1>your wife do?

0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:49.080
<v Speaker 2>So she's been in Democratic politics part she was is

0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:53.040
<v Speaker 2>the Democratic State Committee person for Downtown Manhattan for twenty

0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:56.560
<v Speaker 2>some years and has worked down a whole bunch of

0:35:56.640 --> 0:36:00.400
<v Speaker 2>anti fracking, a whole bunch of policy stuff. Starting to

0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:02.839
<v Speaker 2>think that maybe it's time for a change, but that's

0:36:02.880 --> 0:36:05.440
<v Speaker 2>what she's devoted for. She was an activist when I

0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:07.400
<v Speaker 2>met her, and then she kind of did a lot

0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:08.680
<v Speaker 2>of policy throughout our marriage.

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:10.040
<v Speaker 1>A lot of facting going on in New York.

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>No, she stopped it right. Oh well, with Governor Cuoma.

0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:15.960
<v Speaker 1>I was in Trump was elected. I went to do

0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:19.480
<v Speaker 1>that crazy and silly Trump stick those four years in

0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:21.560
<v Speaker 1>SNL from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty.

0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:23.480
<v Speaker 2>You may say it's crazy and silly, but it gave

0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:24.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people.

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, people would say that to me, not.

0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Just pleasure from watching, but a lot of comfort.

0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Right. They wanted to have some laughs about what do

0:36:32.520 --> 0:36:36.520
<v Speaker 1>you think, let's say we win the mid terms, and

0:36:36.560 --> 0:36:39.120
<v Speaker 1>to me that gives me hope, yes, that we can

0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:41.600
<v Speaker 1>come back to some degree. It's never going to be

0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:43.879
<v Speaker 1>the same. Like they were saying. You saw the guy

0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:48.600
<v Speaker 1>from Canada said that they the Americans as the leader

0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:52.360
<v Speaker 1>of the free world is over. It's that damage, it's fractured,

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.719
<v Speaker 1>it's over. And I thought, wow, what a disturbing I mean,

0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:58.279
<v Speaker 1>I didn't necessarily need the United States to be the

0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:00.640
<v Speaker 1>leader of the free world, but I thought I'd like

0:37:00.640 --> 0:37:02.360
<v Speaker 1>the United States to have the option to be the

0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:04.920
<v Speaker 1>leader of the free world if it was necessary, and

0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:07.560
<v Speaker 1>then if we could keep things together. And do you

0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:08.960
<v Speaker 1>think we're ever going to be able to put it

0:37:09.000 --> 0:37:11.080
<v Speaker 1>back together to We just don't know.

0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:14.640
<v Speaker 2>I've been thinking about that a lot since Davos. Obviously. Look,

0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:16.799
<v Speaker 2>I think first of all, we have to put things

0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:20.080
<v Speaker 2>back together domestically, so we have to kind of redo

0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:23.080
<v Speaker 2>all the Watergate reforms, but in a way that works.

0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 2>All the rules about independence and stopping corruption and disclosures

0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:32.160
<v Speaker 2>like we had them, but they're they were too easy

0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:34.520
<v Speaker 2>to get around. So I think all of that has

0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:37.600
<v Speaker 2>to change. And I have great respect for President Biden.

0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I think you did a good thing, but I don't

0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:42.120
<v Speaker 2>think he was tough enough on that stuff, and then

0:37:42.200 --> 0:37:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I think, once we fix our own house, which is

0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:46.320
<v Speaker 2>going to take time, we also obviously have to repair

0:37:46.440 --> 0:37:49.360
<v Speaker 2>our relationships with our allies. I mean, one thing I

0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:51.399
<v Speaker 2>know from the time I was in Russia is that

0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:53.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Russian government then and now is not

0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:56.600
<v Speaker 2>It's not a good thing. And what they're doing in

0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:00.319
<v Speaker 2>Ukraine is tragic and we need to have kind that

0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:03.040
<v Speaker 2>can work together to fight against that. We can't have

0:38:03.080 --> 0:38:06.680
<v Speaker 2>them go take Ukraine and then beyellow Russia and then Poland.

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:09.879
<v Speaker 2>That would be horrific. We're not going to relive, as

0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:11.720
<v Speaker 2>my son would say, the last century.

0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:15.319
<v Speaker 1>Without getting into details. What's the case you're working on now?

0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:16.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh, so this is interesting. I can tell you this

0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:19.800
<v Speaker 2>is public, So this is not it's all about everything

0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:22.600
<v Speaker 2>we talked about roll up into one. So we have

0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a client. I have a client for many years. His

0:38:25.120 --> 0:38:28.160
<v Speaker 2>name is Imron Achmed. He runs it a not for

0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:31.600
<v Speaker 2>profit called the Center for Countering Digital Hate, and he's

0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:34.000
<v Speaker 2>a big critic of tech and he's written a lot

0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:37.560
<v Speaker 2>about problems on big tech and failure to moderate content, etc.

0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:41.479
<v Speaker 2>Elon Musk does not like him very much. He sued

0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:44.200
<v Speaker 2>him four years ago. I represented Elon in that case.

0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:48.320
<v Speaker 2>We got it dismissed. It's still on appeal and AX

0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:52.000
<v Speaker 2>recently got sanctioned by the EU for not for failing

0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:56.640
<v Speaker 2>to comply with their digital privacy law. And Elon got

0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:59.840
<v Speaker 2>very angry and got the State Department we believe to

0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.640
<v Speaker 2>say that my client screen card should be revoked. They

0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:07.920
<v Speaker 2>announced this on December twenty third. In the afternoon. We

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:09.840
<v Speaker 2>go I see to my client, get your toush to

0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:14.840
<v Speaker 2>New York. We file papers on five o'clock on Christmas Eve,

0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 2>saying you can't do this. This is about his speech. The

0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:19.440
<v Speaker 2>guy hasn't done it. You're not allowed to just kick

0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:20.880
<v Speaker 2>people out of the country because you don't like what

0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:24.319
<v Speaker 2>they say. And he's not criticised the American company. Since

0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:27.360
<v Speaker 2>when is that a problem? Like people criticize America companies

0:39:27.360 --> 0:39:31.000
<v Speaker 2>all the time. And we got an injunction twelve thirty

0:39:31.000 --> 0:39:33.840
<v Speaker 2>am on Christmas Day, So my team didn't have the

0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:37.520
<v Speaker 2>easiest holiday. But it's a great case. It's ongoing right now.

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:39.000
<v Speaker 2>They can't do anything to him, but I'm going to

0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:39.800
<v Speaker 2>see you to litigated.

0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:41.759
<v Speaker 1>What do you think about that judge that smuggle the

0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 1>presumed terrorists out of the courtroom and just got conviction.

0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:46.360
<v Speaker 2>She got convicted.

0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:49.160
<v Speaker 1>She got convicted. Boy boy, that seems like a tough

0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.080
<v Speaker 1>thing to do for judge to sit in judgement of

0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:54.040
<v Speaker 1>another judge who they believe has made a poor decision.

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:55.400
<v Speaker 1>It was a poor.

0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Decision probably, if that's those are the facts it was.

0:39:57.680 --> 0:39:59.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's why our client is so different. There

0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:02.440
<v Speaker 2>are We do have rights to revoke visus for people

0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:06.839
<v Speaker 2>who support terrorists things like that, But criticizing X like

0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:07.720
<v Speaker 2>that makes no sense.

0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:10.520
<v Speaker 1>I've been saying the same thing. I'm likely that people

0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:14.640
<v Speaker 1>who are the faithful in this issue of campaign finance reform,

0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:17.280
<v Speaker 1>the ones I've worked with over the years, for many years.

0:40:17.280 --> 0:40:20.279
<v Speaker 1>This is my issue, other than plastics pollution and wanting

0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:24.640
<v Speaker 1>to ban single use plastics around the country, Campaign finance

0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:26.640
<v Speaker 1>reform is the lynchpin of all of our problems in

0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:30.759
<v Speaker 1>this country. What passes for leadership now that is able

0:40:30.800 --> 0:40:33.680
<v Speaker 1>to get bought and sold by the local business community.

0:40:34.040 --> 0:40:36.640
<v Speaker 1>If cash is speech, then he with the most cast

0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:38.319
<v Speaker 1>speaks the loudest. Was the line of us.

0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:38.879
<v Speaker 2>It's true.

0:40:39.360 --> 0:40:43.280
<v Speaker 1>If we don't change this, citizens united and get that overturn,

0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:46.479
<v Speaker 1>I doubt we'll ever be able to get off the path.

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:48.520
<v Speaker 1>We're wrong with that, and.

0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:50.279
<v Speaker 2>Which leads to the Supreme Court, which is a whole

0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:50.560
<v Speaker 2>other head.

0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:52.160
<v Speaker 1>We want to know what then let's ask let's go

0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:55.799
<v Speaker 1>out on that question. Look, I mean sixty.

0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:57.799
<v Speaker 2>Three, as someone who really believed in the system and

0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:01.080
<v Speaker 2>the role of law, the idea of Supreme Court reform

0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.440
<v Speaker 2>was hard for me to kind of get my arms around.

0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:06.960
<v Speaker 2>But I'm now at the point. I mean, we'll see

0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:08.799
<v Speaker 2>what they do on tariffs, We'll see what they do

0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:11.000
<v Speaker 2>on the FED. I think I think he's going to

0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:14.400
<v Speaker 2>lose both of those. But this idea that they just,

0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:18.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, so easily overturned precedence not Roe v. Wade

0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:21.479
<v Speaker 2>and others that have existed for decades, is not good.

0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:23.600
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't give it's there's no faith in the system.

0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:28.000
<v Speaker 1>It's law. What do they say, what do they say

0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:29.120
<v Speaker 1>when they change it? What is it?

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:31.239
<v Speaker 2>Basically said, it was wrong a lyough, it was wrong

0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:35.160
<v Speaker 2>when it was decided, and reliance doesn't matter, essentially, is

0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:39.560
<v Speaker 2>what he said. But it can't be that people have

0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:41.359
<v Speaker 2>so little faith in the Supreme Court. I know, I'm

0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:44.160
<v Speaker 2>assuming the Chief Justice is worried about this. I think

0:41:44.160 --> 0:41:46.200
<v Speaker 2>he needs to be more worried about it. I think

0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:47.719
<v Speaker 2>we have to restore that faith as well.

0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:55.960
<v Speaker 1>My thanks to lawyer Robbie Kaplan. This episode was recorded

0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:59.440
<v Speaker 1>at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by

0:41:59.520 --> 0:42:04.040
<v Speaker 1>Kathleen Soo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. Our engineer

0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:08.800
<v Speaker 1>is Isaac Kaplan Woolner. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich.

0:42:09.239 --> 0:42:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:25.920
<v Speaker 1>by iHeart Radio