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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. In twenty twenty three and twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, author E. Gene Carroll faced Donald Trump in

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Speaker 1: court and one both times. My guest today is the

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Speaker 1: attorney who took on Trump in both cases and secured

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Speaker 1: two unanimous jury verdicts against him. ROBERTA. Or Robbie Caplan

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Speaker 1: as a renowned civil litigator and trial lawyer with decades

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Speaker 1: of experience in commercial, higher education, government regulation, and civil

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Speaker 1: rights litigation. She has been consistently ranked as one of

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Speaker 1: the top litigators in the country. Caplin famously woned the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court on behalf of LGBTQ rights activist Edith Windsor

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Speaker 1: in a landmark case that required the federal government to

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Speaker 1: recognize same sex marriages. Originally from Cleveland, Ohio, Caplin attended

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Speaker 1: Harvard University and Columbia Law School, But before settling in

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Speaker 1: New York City, Kaplain studied Russian history and briefly lived

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Speaker 1: in Moscow. I was curious what it was like living

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Speaker 1: in Russia.

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Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, I think it shaped my

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Speaker 2: view of the world more than anything else in my life.

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Speaker 2: It was nineteen seven, I'm very old, and Glossnows had

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Speaker 2: been announced. Gorbachev was the head of right of the government.

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Speaker 2: Glassos had been announced, but it was still the old system.

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Speaker 2: And so I got, you know, a semester of seeing

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Speaker 2: what it was like to live in a totalitarian, authoritarian regime.

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Speaker 2: And it was insane. We would go into our classrooms

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Speaker 2: and there would be these bugs at the ceiling and

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Speaker 2: sometimes the bugs would break and you'd hear like all

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Speaker 2: the static coming out, and everyone would just act like

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Speaker 2: it was normal. The teachers all had to be Communist

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Speaker 2: Party members, and so they had a class on the

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Speaker 2: Russian words strata vietnya. I guess it would be like

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Speaker 2: customs of the country, and they would say things like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have the consa male and then one

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Speaker 2: of the American kids will raise their hands and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: we have the same thing. It's the girl Scouts and

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Speaker 2: boy Scouts, and I'd be like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: Like it was just terrifying to see how if you

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Speaker 2: put people, even Americans. I guess we're seeing that today,

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Speaker 2: but if you put Americans in that environment, they kind

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Speaker 2: of succumb to it. It gave me I'm sorry to say,

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Speaker 2: a very negative view of human nature, which probably isn't

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Speaker 2: such a good thing, although it's good for a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I often tell myself that, you know, all these societies

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Speaker 1: ours included, you can't judge them by their political leadership.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the people might be completely different. Are the

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Speaker 1: Russian people very different from their political Well?

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Speaker 2: I know, the people I knew and hung out with

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Speaker 2: were like, I was crazy. They're hung out with all

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Speaker 2: these dissidents and refused next Jews who had asked to

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Speaker 2: leave and been refused. And you couldn't tell one group

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Speaker 2: of friends about the other group of friends because that

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Speaker 2: would make them paranoid. And it was very kind of

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Speaker 2: cloak and daggery kgb E. But the people I were

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Speaker 2: friends with was great, and you would this is actually

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Speaker 2: and you would hang out all night and drink vodka

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Speaker 2: and talk about Russian literature. And then when I came

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Speaker 2: back here, I was like, what's wrong with Americans? Like

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Speaker 2: were also shallow. I had a little bit of a breakdown.

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Speaker 2: I was like, what's our society is just so surface

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Speaker 2: as opposed to the Russians.

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Speaker 1: Did you come from like a super legal minded family?

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Speaker 2: What do I had a roof coding. Business really didn't

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Speaker 2: really wear in Cleveland, which was my mom's dad's business.

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Speaker 2: So I don't going to sound very clean. In Cleveland,

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Speaker 2: it's proounced roof coding, I under said, New York, it's

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Speaker 2: roof coding. But he had a factory, and in the

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Speaker 2: summers I worked there, I would load five gallon pails.

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Speaker 1: With Now, do you have any siblings.

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Speaker 2: I have a younger brother, and he was in the business. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he had to do the fun stuff because he could

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Speaker 2: like drive the forklift.

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Speaker 1: Now, when you decide to go to law school, what what?

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Speaker 1: What inspired that decision?

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Speaker 2: So originally I thought I was so into Russian history

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Speaker 2: from college. I thought I wanted to be a Russian historian.

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Speaker 2: But I soon realized that if you're going to be

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Speaker 2: a professor, you don't really have any control about where

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Speaker 2: you live. And I knew from the time I was

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Speaker 2: a very young kid that I wanted to move to

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Speaker 2: New York. My mom had a subscription New York Magazine

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Speaker 2: and I would read it, and I would read all

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Speaker 2: the new journalism and Gale Green's restaurant reviews and Tom Wolfe,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, ALLEGI, yeah, exact this is for me.

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Speaker 2: So once I realized that I could end up like

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Speaker 2: it Wisconsin or wherever an academic, I was like, I

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Speaker 2: want to do the law. And I went to law school,

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Speaker 2: still not one hundred percent sure, but then I kind

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Speaker 2: of fell in love with the not so much the

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Speaker 2: school part of law school, but the courtroom part, because

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Speaker 2: I would go and watch trials and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And when you are there, what year do you enter

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Speaker 1: Columbia Law School?

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Speaker 2: So I entered Columbia Law School eighty a graduate college,

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Speaker 2: in eighty eight. They used to call me straight through.

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Speaker 2: I should have taken time off. I didn't take your

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Speaker 2: time off.

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Speaker 1: So you go. You start Columbia Law School in eighty eight.

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Speaker 2: Up by Columbia Crime was incredible.

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Speaker 1: Well, the reason I asked that is because what was

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Speaker 1: law school like for a woman back then? Did you

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Speaker 1: find it was different than it is now?

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Speaker 2: And now I teach the I just taught my class yesterday. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it was. There were much many fewer women

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Speaker 2: in the firms, for sure. In New York there were

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Speaker 2: a lot. You know, when I went to Paul Weiss,

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Speaker 2: there was one woman litigation partner who's now a judge.

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Speaker 2: And they made me partner a year early with another

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Speaker 2: woman because they didn't have anyone, partly because they didn't

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Speaker 2: they need to get someone partners quick, and there weren't

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Speaker 2: a lot of role models out there, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: I read, well, you had your classes with people in

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Speaker 1: the firms you worked in. Was it a situation where

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Speaker 1: it's like, with men do it, it's fine, but if

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Speaker 1: women do it, they're apparently it.

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Speaker 2: Was that for sure. He's passed away. So I can

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Speaker 2: say this. I had the former head of my firm

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Speaker 2: tell me one day that I was a bulldog, and

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Speaker 2: first of all, I felt like saying, well, maybe you

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Speaker 2: meant bull dyke, Like I'm not sure what you mentioned

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Speaker 2: with bulldog wethink that I said? But second of all, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm a litigator, Like what are you saying? That's what

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Speaker 2: we do? So there that was definitely an issue throughout

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Speaker 2: the profession. It's it's gotten better, for sure.

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Speaker 1: When you decided to go to law school. When you

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Speaker 1: were done, was it worth it? Did it turn out

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Speaker 1: to be satisfy this thing you wanted about dwelling in courtrooms?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think the idea, I mean, the

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Speaker 2: great gift of being a lawyer and having the kind

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Speaker 2: of career of had and being able to work at

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Speaker 2: firms with all their problems. But who taught me so

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Speaker 2: many things is the ability to actually change things in

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Speaker 2: our society in a way that very few people can.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can really make a difference not only

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Speaker 2: to your clients but to causes in the United States

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Speaker 2: if you bring the right case at the right time

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Speaker 2: and rage equality. Yeah, when there's the perfect example. So

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Speaker 2: you know, in Paul Weiss where I started, really that

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Speaker 2: culture was so strong in the litigation department. Arthur Lyman

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Speaker 2: and Marty London were great heads of the departments, and

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Speaker 2: that's how they practice, and that's how they taught me

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Speaker 2: how to practice.

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Speaker 1: When you take a case, what just makes you decide

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Speaker 1: you're going to take the case? What do you look for?

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Speaker 2: So if it's a case where I think it's very

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Speaker 2: likely to go all the way to trial, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's probably not that different than what you look at

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Speaker 2: very much thinking about how is this witness going to appear,

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Speaker 2: how is she going to this person going to appears

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Speaker 2: a witness? How credible is their story? What do they

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Speaker 2: have that corroborates their story, What are the weaknesses of

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Speaker 2: the story, and I kind of put it all together

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Speaker 2: in some weird Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean Egene did this show, and she would

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Speaker 1: be as I've heard referred to in like movies of

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Speaker 1: the thirties and forties, she would be a flibberty gibbet.

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Speaker 1: She's a very kinetic woman.

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Speaker 2: You can say that again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like a bird out of the cage and

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Speaker 1: she's all over the place. What were your concerns about

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Speaker 1: that in terms of her as a witness.

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Speaker 2: So she came into There were two things that immediately

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Speaker 2: I thought that they were. On the plus, I won

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Speaker 2: I don't have to tell you. I mean, she's this

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Speaker 2: beautiful woman, so when you're having a woman who's alleging

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Speaker 2: that someone assaulted her, I mean it was totally credible

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Speaker 2: that Donald Trump would find her attractive. So that was good.

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Speaker 2: And she was very articulate, and I thought she'd be

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Speaker 2: able to be charming in the courtroom, which she ultimately was.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that's me was that the story was

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Speaker 2: so kooky, like the details of it that she went

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Speaker 2: in to Berndurf Goodman and he said, let's go shopping,

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Speaker 2: and they went up to the lingerie department in the evening.

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Speaker 2: No one was the stories. If you wanted to make

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Speaker 2: up a story about Donald Trump sexually assaulting you, that

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Speaker 2: would not be the story you would make up. And then,

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Speaker 2: of course she told her two close friends within the

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Speaker 2: next forty eight hours. The donald sides, of course, were A.

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Speaker 2: It was Donald Trump. B. It's generally very very hard

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Speaker 2: for women to prove sexual assaults, especially one that took

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Speaker 2: place pretty sure it was the spring of nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 2: those many years ago. She she is a very kinetic

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Speaker 2: human being, and we had to work I mean, I

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Speaker 2: thought she was great in the courtroom, but we had

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Speaker 2: to talk and work with her about kind of how

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Speaker 2: to testify as opposed to how to kind of talk

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Speaker 2: as a journalist. She has a tendency to become a

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Speaker 2: journalist all the time and to ask people questions, and

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Speaker 2: we had to keep saying, oh, no, no, you have to

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Speaker 2: answer questions. Now you can't ask the questions. I think

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Speaker 2: she doesn't want talk about herself, so she'd rather be

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Speaker 2: a drunk. I have to say, my colleagues at the time,

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Speaker 2: no one thought it was a good case. Other than me,

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Speaker 2: they were very well, what was their logic so long

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Speaker 2: ago there wasn't any physical evidence. I mean, she'd have

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Speaker 2: this dress, but the likelihood that there was anything.

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Speaker 1: That was going to do it wasn't the black dress, like

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Speaker 1: Monica Lewinsky.

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Speaker 2: Well, she actually said, well it wasn't. It wasn't. She

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Speaker 2: saved her dress, but not to prove anything. She saved

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Speaker 2: it because it was a Donna Karen Black, very expensive dress,

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Speaker 2: and she was like, this is too good of a dress.

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Speaker 2: I'm not getting rid of it. So she put it

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Speaker 2: in the back of her closet. She never wore again.

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Speaker 1: Now, of course, I'm of the school having done this

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Speaker 1: whole Trump stick on SNL for quite a while, for

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Speaker 1: four years, that first four years. For me, everything that

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Speaker 1: could be possibly said about Trump has already been said.

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Speaker 1: And anybody talking about Trump anymore other than in actual

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Speaker 1: facts and journalism is a waste of time. When you're

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Speaker 1: in there. He was in the courtroom and you got

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Speaker 1: to examine him.

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Speaker 2: None in the courtroom examined him.

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Speaker 1: At Marlago, you did, You did deposition with him, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which it was depicitioning. So he never testified in a trial.

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Speaker 2: He had the option to. The judge gave him until

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Speaker 2: to just change his mind, until five o'clock first, the

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Speaker 2: judge said ten o'clock on Sunday.

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Speaker 1: But you can't make them testify. I thought in civil

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Speaker 1: cases you could. I'm gonna talk to him, right.

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Speaker 2: I was able to use the deposition video though, because

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Speaker 2: he didn't testify, we were able to play some of

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Speaker 2: the most telling I would say, excerpts of the deposition

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Speaker 2: for the jury. Who saw them and.

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Speaker 1: When you had and you questioned him for how long

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Speaker 1: in mar a Lago?

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Speaker 2: Probably seven hours.

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Speaker 1: In one session or a couple sessions one session once.

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Speaker 2: I did it twice one it was another case I

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Speaker 2: had against him, a fraud case that ultimately didn't survive.

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Speaker 1: And then in the case with her, how did you

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Speaker 1: find him in terms of because he's obviously very cagy,

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Speaker 1: He's a guy that has sidestepped a lot of serious

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Speaker 1: problems with his wits and his guts and his madness perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but how did you find him?

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Speaker 2: So? I had a strategy I learned actually as a

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Speaker 2: young lawyer, kind of being in a minority and having

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Speaker 2: people think about you differently as a woman, which I

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Speaker 2: call the spider strategy. What I mean by that is

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Speaker 2: I kind of act like I don't know what I'm

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Speaker 2: doing and then for a long time and then I'll

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Speaker 2: finet the end, I'll kind of pounce. And so with him,

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Speaker 2: I was very polite. I spent the first two hours

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Speaker 2: asking him questions that he could brag about. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: we know it was a Thursday night. It happened for

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Speaker 2: two reasons. One that's when Berdruf Gribbin stayed late one

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Speaker 2: night a week back then. And two that's when the

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Speaker 2: writer's table met at Elaine's. And the truth of it

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Speaker 2: is Egene was going to go to dinner there afterwards,

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Speaker 2: and I know the whole thing began. She's admitted this

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Speaker 2: because she thought it would be a great story. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell my friends this joke, a story about how

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Speaker 2: I helped Trump shop for a gift. And so I

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Speaker 2: got him to say, I said, oh, you used to

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Speaker 2: like going to Elaine's. Yes, you went there and with

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Speaker 2: Havana very often. Yes, And you must have sat at

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Speaker 2: the Writer's table, didn't you. And He's like, oh, yes,

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Speaker 2: sat there many times. Like you could get him to

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Speaker 2: say same thing that he'd been at a Saturay Night Live.

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Speaker 2: She you know, Egene wrote for season you were Night

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Speaker 2: Live a lot. Yes, you could kind of get him

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Speaker 2: to admit, I don't think you understod I was doing,

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Speaker 2: but that he was. He had every reason to know

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Speaker 2: who Egene was. Like you, they overlapped in certain ways

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Speaker 2: in New York society and ways that he definitely knew

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Speaker 2: who she was. And I kind of just loaned him

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 1: And she was a woman in terms of her physical

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Speaker 1: composition that certainly he's she would he would make it

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Speaker 1: his business to meet someone like that.

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Speaker 2: And as he said it, the thing he identified her

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Speaker 2: as Marvel Maples, they did look a lot alike. The

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Speaker 2: truth is, back then.

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Speaker 1: When you have a contingency case. In my cases, my

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Speaker 1: civil cases we've had, there are support expenses, photo copying,

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. Paralegals, I mean, they're they're the people

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Speaker 1: say again it's a fortune. Well, the person who was

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Speaker 1: my attorney, we had a contingency arrangement, but not for

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Speaker 1: those expenses. So they're handing you, even though you're not

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Speaker 1: paying the major bill, you're getting handed hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars of this this stuff. Now with you, did

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Speaker 1: you do that? Did you have to pass on to her? No?

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Speaker 2: We had very long all. No, don to Eddy, there

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Speaker 2: has become very controversial. Trump is obsessed with this. Reied

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Speaker 2: Hoffman stepped in and agreed to pay the outside expenses.

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Speaker 2: And he was he's the guy started linked in a

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Speaker 2: technic and he did why. He thought it was a

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Speaker 2: good case and he thought it would be you know,

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Speaker 2: important for people to see what happened, and so he agreed.

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Speaker 2: He had a foundation that was doing kind of Trump

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Speaker 2: stuff and they funded almost all that's the cost the

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Speaker 2: most expensive which were security of course, right, because when

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Speaker 2: every time we went to court, we needed bodyguard and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: For her for her Wow. So it's to be assumed

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Speaker 1: because you've got five million in one judgment in eighty

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Speaker 1: three whatever, and the other one.

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Speaker 2: She's about I think she's I'm going to knock on wood.

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Speaker 2: I think we're going to get the first five right,

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Speaker 2: and we've waived our contingency on that, so she will

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Speaker 2: get the whole entire five million.

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Speaker 1: Right, and then it's down the road where they're going

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Speaker 1: to get the eighty front.

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Speaker 2: That's a little bit of a bigger bet.

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Speaker 1: You do a contingency, Is it assumed that there are

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Speaker 1: times you don't win, Yeah, and you have to eat

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Speaker 1: that call those months and months of trial.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of these firms that take on these

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Speaker 2: huge continuencies that last years and years, they have to

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Speaker 2: fund it all that, and sometimes they have this thing

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Speaker 2: called litigation finance.

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Speaker 1: Where right people invest in the case and they buy

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Speaker 1: a piece.

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Speaker 2: I've never done that, but.

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Speaker 1: You never have. What do you what's your opinion of that?

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Speaker 2: I think it can be very helpful. I just I

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Speaker 2: would rather get the whole thing at the end. So

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Speaker 2: I'm willing to bet on my own risk.

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Speaker 1: Right, I'm going to pivot to me two times up.

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Speaker 1: You know, if Trump weren't president, if you weren't someone

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Speaker 1: who was empowered politically by so many people, he'd probably

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Speaker 1: be in jail right now, don't you think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not one hundred. I mean, first,

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Speaker 2: certainly the special prosecutor would have put him in jail

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Speaker 2: for sure had that happened, because I mean, he's been

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Speaker 2: testifying today and it's incredibly powerful. Jack Smith, Look, I

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Speaker 2: think eaching it would be surprised to me. Let me

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Speaker 2: put this way, that Egene were that Egene was the

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Speaker 2: only one. I mean, other women have said that he

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Speaker 2: assaulted them. I assume it's true. I assume there are

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Speaker 2: women out there who are just too afraid for good

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Speaker 2: reason to come forward. I was actually down at the

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Speaker 2: Manhattan DA last night until ten o'clock with a client

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Speaker 2: terrible story domestic violence, and I was talking to the

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Speaker 2: young prosecutors and I said to them, you know, Egene

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Speaker 2: was right not to go to you guys in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, like they won't have done it. And he

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Speaker 2: was like, no, you're right, they won't have done anything

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six, But sooner or later I would

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Speaker 2: have caught up to him.

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Speaker 1: Apropos of Me two times Up, there are tremendous successes,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, and overdue justice on behalf of people

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Speaker 1: in terms of the ME two times which you know

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Speaker 1: Harvey is the ault obviously, but how do you wait?

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Speaker 1: What what the time ME two times up campaign has

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Speaker 1: a complied?

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Speaker 2: So I've spent a lot of time thinking about this

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Speaker 2: and how it crashed and burned at the end, and

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Speaker 2: why it crashed and burned at the end, and really

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Speaker 2: and then kind of the bad publicity that I got

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Speaker 2: and others involved got. Look, on the one hand, there

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Speaker 2: were people like Harveing others who deserved everything they got.

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Speaker 2: But I do believe, and it actually goes all the

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Speaker 2: way back to Russia that we reached a kind of

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Speaker 2: Robespierre period and it actually helped reelect Trump where it

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Speaker 2: was just after collecting heads rather than exercising judgment, seeing

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Speaker 2: like the differences understanding nuance, etc. There definitely was a

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Speaker 2: kind of guillotine aspect to it at its height, and

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Speaker 2: that was a mistake. There's no question that people were hurt.

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Speaker 2: There's no question that people who were guilty again, as

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Speaker 2: I said, got their just desserts. I've thought a lot

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Speaker 2: about what we could have done to change that. Part

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Speaker 2: of me thinks that's human nature when these things happen.

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Speaker 2: But it's terrible, and it's terrible because people who were

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Speaker 2: hurt bright. It's terrible because again I think it had

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Speaker 2: a huge impact on reelect in Trump the second time.

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Speaker 2: The other thing I think about a lot is that

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Speaker 2: at times up we were dependent on celebrities for our power.

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Speaker 2: And that was great. It gave us great power. But

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Speaker 2: we failed to realize is that, and this is understandable,

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Speaker 2: celebrities don't have a lot of tolerance for controversy, right,

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Speaker 2: So the minute things started to get a little iffy,

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Speaker 2: you know, people started fleeing the ship very very quickly,

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Speaker 2: and it was hard to hold it together.

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Speaker 1: I remember seeing people individual people meeting with them, meeting

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Speaker 1: them with in studios, very much like this Keeler Charlie Rose.

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Speaker 1: Not everybody was pressing a button to lock the door

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Speaker 1: of their office at NBC to prevent you from getting out.

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Speaker 1: There were gradations of this, and I felt that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people got washed up in the sweep there unfairly.

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Speaker 1: Look there people who didn't deserve to be canceled. I

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Speaker 1: they need some counseling.

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Speaker 2: The Times tried to cancel me. So two summers ago,

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Speaker 2: there was a reporter at the Times who spent ten months,

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Speaker 2: literally ten months, calling everyone who's ever worked with me,

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Speaker 2: everyone I know, saying what's the dirt on Robbie Kaplan,

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Speaker 2: which is pretty insane because I'm kind of boring. There's

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Speaker 2: like not a lot of dirt on me. And she

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Speaker 2: wrote this very nasty piece and it really gave me.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, it was a very painful period,

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Speaker 2: but it really gave me an understanding of the damage

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Speaker 2: that could be done. I mean it was at the

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Speaker 2: second Trump trial. I'm standing there closing to the jury.

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Speaker 2: I have Trump seven feet to my left, and I

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Speaker 2: have this New York Times reporter seven feet to my right,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't even just wait wait

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Speaker 2: to look. I was like, this is insane. So it

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Speaker 2: gave me a lot more sympathy and empathy for how

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Speaker 2: damaging that can be. Again, I think we've moved away

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Speaker 2: from it. But the problem with social media is it

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Speaker 2: just it encourages it.

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Speaker 1: Lawyer Robbie Kaplan. If you enjoy conversations with lawyers representing

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Speaker 1: controversial clients, check out my episode with Dean Strang the

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Speaker 1: defense Attorney Fee to the documentary Making a Murderer.

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Speaker 3: This happens a client comes in, potential client comes in,

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Speaker 3: You meet with him, he lays it all out, and

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Speaker 3: you know, my reaction is, look, you're cooked. They've got you,

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Speaker 3: and they're gonna want you to cooperate against others, and

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Speaker 3: you probably should. That's probably your best option right at

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Speaker 3: this point.

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Speaker 1: And I don't do that. I'm not the right lawyer

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Speaker 1: for that. To hear more of my conversation with attorney

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Speaker 1: Dean Strang, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After

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Speaker 1: the break, Robbie Kaplan tells the story of taking her

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Speaker 1: seven year old son to the White House and his

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Speaker 1: interaction with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I'm Alec Baldwin, and

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Speaker 1: this is here's the thing. Robbie Kaplan received her graduate

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Speaker 1: degree from Columbia Law School and went on to join

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Speaker 1: the law firm Paul Weiss. While at the firm, Kaplan

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Speaker 1: would eventually take on her alma mater as a client. Today,

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Speaker 1: Caplin teaches a yearly seminar at Columbia University's Law School

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Speaker 1: as an adjunct professor. I was curious how her experience

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Speaker 1: with Columbia has changed over the years and how she

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Speaker 1: would describe law students today.

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Speaker 2: Well, it just certain my new class yesterday.

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Speaker 1: What do you teach?

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Speaker 2: It's a very sexy topic, advanced civil procedure. I'll have

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Speaker 2: a question for someone actually signs up for that. I

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Speaker 2: think they're more serious than we were, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Really why because the world saw.

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Speaker 2: Grim Really that's a sense.

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Speaker 1: Do they express that to you in some ways.

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Speaker 2: A little bit? I mean, it was just the first

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Speaker 2: class yesterday, But last year I taught it too, and

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Speaker 2: they seem, I mean, we had some interesting discussions about it,

435
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 2: but they seem there's not a lot of hope for them.

436
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 2: About it's sad they can achieve. Even talking about courts

437
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: and cases and kind of how the system has changed

438
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 2: over time is a little bit depressant. You want to

439
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: hear my best White House story?

440
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: Go right ahead.

441
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 2: So after Windsor, we get invited to the White House

442
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 2: for it was the Honka party, I think, and I

443
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: said to my our son was about seven or eight,

444
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: And I said to my wife, like, should we bring him?

445
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 2: He was pretty hyperactive as a kid. I said, well,

446
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 2: bring him. I said, we'll probably never get invited to

447
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: the White House again, so let's bring him. And so

448
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: I said to him, my name is Jacob, said Jacob, listen,

449
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 2: we're gonna go. You're gonna have to go through all

450
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 2: the security. If it gets to be too much for you,

451
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 2: I promise you we can leave. So he was like fine.

452
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,439
Speaker 2: We went and he did fine. He had a little

453
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 2: tie on. He was adorable. He did fine for about

454
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: the first hour, and then it did start to get

455
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: super crowded, and he said, okay, you told me we

456
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 2: could go, and I said fine. So as we're walking out,

457
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 2: Justice Ginsburg is walking in and I said to Jacob,

458
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 2: I said, okay, let's go over and say hello to

459
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,080
Speaker 2: Justice Ginsburg, and I am not exaggerating. Jacob had a

460
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 2: temper tantrum on the buckles of her Faeragama shoes. He's

461
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: literally on the floor on her feet having a snappertentrum.

462
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 2: I have a look on my face like I'd rather

463
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: this happened to anyone else on the planet other than you,

464
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 2: Justice s Kinsburth, And she looked at me. It was

465
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 2: the kindest thing on the one She said. Listen, She said,

466
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: I have a son. He's exactly your age his childhood

467
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 2: was Was he acted like that when he was a kid,

468
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: she said, But he's now professor at Chicago and he's

469
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 2: married with kids, and don't worry at all. Be fun.

470
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: My kids are in a face now where we went

471
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: shopping for ski coats and buying them, and I say, well,

472
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: I think this one looks good on Newarthi and my kids.

473
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: One of my sons turned to me, he goes, what

474
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 1: do you know you're from Long Islands?

475
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: Oh, my god, they're all born.

476
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: And raised in the city. He goes, what do you

477
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 1: know you're.

478
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: From my sonset My son's version of that as you're

479
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: from the last century. Oh that happened in the last century.

480
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now civil procedure in terms of the

481
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: type of civil law you would attend to, don't you

482
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: think there's some need for some reform to streamline that process.

483
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 1: And I'll allow judges to sit there and go, hey, mister,

484
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: you're full of shit, get out of here. Why can't

485
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: we streamline that process.

486
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 2: Exactly what we talked about yesterday actually in the first

487
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: class of my seminar. And I do think that, you know,

488
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 2: what happens is we keep making procedural rules to kind

489
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: of screen out the bad cases and then their unintended

490
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 2: consequences to those rules, and they don't end up achieving

491
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: what we want them to achieve. Good judges, and there

492
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: are many good judges, especially in New York, especially federal

493
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: judges in New York, kind of do it on their own,

494
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: you know. They, especially if they've been on the bench

495
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:34,959
Speaker 2: a long time, they have a very good sense of

496
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: what's a good case and what's not a good case,

497
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 2: and what are the weaknesses in a case, and they

498
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: will kind of maneuver the case, I think appropriately if

499
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: it's a bad case to get it dismissed, and if

500
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,479
Speaker 2: it's a good case, to push it along. People have

501
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: debated different ways to do this. Should we have different

502
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: courts for different kind of cases? Different judges only do

503
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 2: one kind of case? Should we have different courts based

504
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: on how much money is at stake? In federal courts?

505
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 2: All you need is seventy five thousand dollars hasn't changed

506
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: for decades and probably is way too low.

507
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: Seventy five thousand dollars for what to bring.

508
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 2: A diversity case in federal court. There's people from different states.

509
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: You have to be from different states, and you have

510
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 2: to seek more than seventy five thousand dollars. When that

511
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 2: was first past, seventy five thousand dollars was a lot

512
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 2: of money. Today it's not. And there's been no kind

513
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: of way to update that, or Congress hasn't. But sure,

514
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: I mean it's something that needs to be thought of.

515
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: We have a lot of other legal problems to deal

516
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: with and that Congress has to look at, but that

517
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: would be one on my agenda as well. And the

518
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 2: courts are overwhelmed.

519
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: Do you find you have a talent for reading juries?

520
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: I think I've gotten good at it. Yeah, it's hard,

521
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: and the minutes before a jury, like a you know

522
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: when they say they've come in with a verdict when

523
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: you're waiting. Every time it happens, I think I'm going

524
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: to have a heart attack right there.

525
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: I can't stand it.

526
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: We had I did this big case against the guys

527
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: who were responsible for the violence in Charlottesville the rally

528
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: in August twenty seventeen. It was during COVID and it

529
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: was very hard to read the jury in that case

530
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: because they everyone had to wear masks. The juries were

531
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: sitting kind of where the audience would sit, like two

532
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 2: jurors to a bench. But there was one guy in

533
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: the back. There were very strict rules about wearing a mask,

534
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: and he constantly his masks would constantly go down, and

535
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: I would say the judge found him there, like, the

536
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: guy's not following the rules, And then the guy must

537
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 2: have figured it out because he would kind of give

538
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 2: me nasty looks. And the best thing that ever happened

539
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: is the morning we were driving over the court to

540
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: find out for them to start deliberating, the judge said,

541
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: it turns out a kid at this guy's school got COVID.

542
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: The guy wasn't vaccinated, and the judge said, I'm letting

543
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: you go. And I was like, oh, thank god. So

544
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: things like that really matter. Actually, whether people are vaccinated

545
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: is a great indicator of whether the Yeah, well, in

546
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: New York you are well. I don't know if you

547
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: are now, but you were for the last several years, and.

548
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: And proof that they were vaccinating indicates what to.

549
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: You, rationality.

550
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: I'm going to remember that, honestly, I'm going to remember

551
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: that when I got to New Mexico in a couple

552
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: of years.

553
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 2: You don't want to vaccinated jurors, trust.

554
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: Me, I don't want to. Okay, Often these cases settle,

555
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: and preferably this vast majority cases, the vast majority. I'm

556
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: to show how many of the settlements are spurred by

557
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: the judges of themselves or by your opposing counsel or both.

558
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: Did the judge ever say to you, hey, let's cut

559
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: the shit. You settle this now.

560
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of judges do that, and I think

561
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: that's a good thing. I think judges should be.

562
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: Doing that now when you are in settlements, what's the strategy? Meaning,

563
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: how did you get to eighty three million with the

564
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: Trump Well it was a jury verdict.

565
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: That was a jury verdict. But that's all his fault.

566
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: I mean, he sat in that course. So the first

567
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: trial he didn't show up at all. He was in

568
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: Scotland at his golf course. So the second trial he

569
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: did show up because that one was about money. But

570
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: he acted like a fourteen year old delinquent the whole trial,

571
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: and the jury saw it. And then every day he

572
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: would leave the courtroom go to I think we was

573
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: going to some office downtown at some trumplone building. It

574
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: he would give a press conference and he would defeye

575
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: Egen again. So I would walk in next morning, I'd say,

576
00:26:58,400 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: he did it again, Judge.

577
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: Here's the video, and it's just who was that judge?

578
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: His name is Kaplin, no relation, but he really every

579
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: penny of the Lewis Kaplan is his name.

580
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: Not the one that adjudicated the Steve Donziger case with.

581
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: The same judge. Same judge.

582
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: Donz is a friend of mine who's on this show.

583
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: Yeah anyway, okay, no comment there. He was.

584
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of Judge Kaplin.

585
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: I wish I could say the same, but the I

586
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: find people. I was at a dinner party and at

587
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: the table with us was this guy that was a

588
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: judge of federal judge and I tried and I did.

589
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: I've arrested myself from asking him a lot of questions

590
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: like don't you feel just a suffocating burden to judge

591
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: people and to make decisions they're going to change their lives?

592
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: What's the psychological training? What's the emotional or behavioral training

593
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: they give you in school to master that where you're

594
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: gonna go in and say you're gonna go none zero.

595
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: So I wonder if some people must drive them.

596
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: So one of our young associates just put in. We

597
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: asked for their comments and they said, look, I think

598
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: there should be some training on this, and I was like,

599
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: you know, she has a good idea. So we're actually

600
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: bringing in a psychologist, I think in the next couple

601
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: of months to talk to our people about dealing with

602
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: these cases where the people have experienced great trauma and

603
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 2: that itself is hard to do.

604
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: I have a job I created for myself, and I'm

605
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: only half kidding, but I'll watch TV and they'll show

606
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: a segment of a trial and I'll go, you got

607
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: to be kidding me. You went to law school and

608
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: you study the law, and that's how you present your

609
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: case in court. I want to be the acting coach

610
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: for your period of the litigators. I'm not kidding. I

611
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: want to say to them, I want to take their speeches.

612
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: I want to take their summations and say, okay, you

613
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: want to motor through this, to only take the earned pause,

614
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: you go, you go. The audience is way ahead of it.

615
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: But boom, boom boom is like a horse stop. And

616
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: then you lay this line out real slow, you squeeze it.

617
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: Because I see people who speak in court and they're horrible.

618
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: Their acting skills are dreadful, and it is a bit

619
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: of acting, so.

620
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: As I get to be great. So in the Carol case,

621
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: she told these two people right away, one her friend,

622
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: Lisa Burnbock, and a couple days later another friend, remember

623
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: Carol Martin the old newscast took her friend. Yeah, so

624
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: Carol had some texts that she had to produce where

625
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: Egene was getting on her nerves and she's talking to

626
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: her daughter about how Egene's getting her nurs and they

627
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: thought these were great the other side, and so during

628
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: my closing I raised the issue of the text and

629
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: I said, I looked at the women jerors, I said,

630
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes it's just the way we talk about

631
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: our friends, and they got it. Like they got it immediately.

632
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: That's just how people act sometimes.

633
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: Lawyer Robbie Kaplan, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a

634
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow. Here's the thing on

635
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

636
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: When we come back, Robbie Caplan tells us how being

637
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: too honest on a form prevented her from becoming a prosecutor.

638
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. Robbie

639
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: Kaplan was a partner at the law firm Paul Weiss Rifkin,

640
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: Wharton and Garrison for eighteen years. At the firm, she

641
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: represented clients ranging from JP Morgan Chase to Edith Windsor

642
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: in the landmark Defensive Marriage Act Supreme Court case. I

643
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: was curious why, after eighteen years and much success, Kaplin

644
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: decided to leave Paul Weiss and start her own firm,

645
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: and if this was always her plan.

646
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: So I had an early date with my wife. We

647
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: just met each other and we're having dinner at some

648
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: QB strow in the village, and I start telling her that, oh,

649
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: you know, when they were people get it to be

650
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: a certain agent. Paul Weiss. They moved their offices to

651
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: like smaller offices, but I think that would be okay.

652
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: I'm thirty telling her this, and my wife looks at me, like,

653
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: have you lost your mind? Like you're thirty years old,

654
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: you're thinking about what office you're going to be in

655
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: when you retire. Paul Weiss, I thought I'd spent my

656
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: life there. What changed the business of law firms like

657
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: Paul Weis and such as Paul White. All the big

658
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: firms got bigger and bigger. The corporate departments got bigger

659
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: and bigger. Paul weize, that's been quite dramatic. And what

660
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: that meant for the legation department is the kinds of

661
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: cases they were able to do got narrow and narrower.

662
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: So it got to the point where the only cases

663
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: that Paul Weiss was really wanted to or able to do,

664
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: are these huge cases with five partners and thirty associates.

665
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: And I could do those cases. I did plenty of them,

666
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: but I wanted to be able to do more, have

667
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: more diversity, both in the size of case and in

668
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: the kind of case. I told this guy, my mentor,

669
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: Marty London, who was an old partner, that my goal

670
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: is to have his practice, and I think I've finally

671
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: gotten It's taken me a long time.

672
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: But you had your own firm for how long?

673
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: Well, I've had two versions of my own firms, so

674
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: since twenty seventeen.

675
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: Well, the first one you started when you left Paul White, Yeah,

676
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: which you then left that as well. Correct, why got

677
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: too big? So again you had created a firm. So

678
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: was that an inevitability in the business.

679
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: No, I was just like, focus on my work and

680
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: really honestly not paying attention to the firm itself that much.

681
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: And it also became too big and too white collar,

682
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: and I don't do white collar work, so it didn't

683
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: make a lot of sense.

684
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: So you then then then the third iteration was you

685
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: started another.

686
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: Firm with a bunch of people from the second firms.

687
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: Second firm, how's that going?

688
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: It's fun because everyone I know known a very long time,

689
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: all the partners. We have these incredible group of young

690
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: lawyers working for us. They're amazing, our cases are amazing.

691
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 2: We're having a lot of fun.

692
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: When you're in court. This is relates to the question

693
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: about the jury. Can you read a judge too? Oh?

694
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: Definitely, Well, you.

695
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: Probably have had a history with them, you know them from.

696
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: The important thing in any case is that who the judges.

697
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: I hate to say if this is true, and you know,

698
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: if there it's a judge, you know, you know how

699
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: they are approach to things, how they practice, what their

700
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: attitude is going to be. It's incredibly important. It's not

701
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: even that important what it is. It's just important knowing

702
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: what it is, right, because then you could advise the

703
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: client as to how things are likely to progress.

704
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: And without naming names. Obviously, are there judges where you're

705
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: like slightly terrified they have to go into that courtroom

706
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: or concerned, let's.

707
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: Say in New York, not that many. We have really

708
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: good judges in New York. I was, this is crazy.

709
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: So during this second trial, Alina Habba, who was the

710
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: lead lawyer who was the USA Traine for New Jersey

711
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: for like seven minutes, stood up in court I think

712
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: it was the second day, and held her arms like

713
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: this and said, Judge Kaplan, I just want you to

714
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: know I really don't appreciate the way you're speaking to me.

715
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: And I literally almost how a heart attack the idea

716
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 2: that you would say that to it. Yeah, I mean

717
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,719
Speaker 2: if I had said he would put He would say,

718
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: you're getting put out.

719
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: Why do you think there's all that decorum with the judge?

720
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: Why do you stand and call him your honor? We're

721
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: not in eighteenth century England here.

722
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: I think it's a good thing because on the surface

723
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: you're showing respect to that judge, but fundamentally you're showing

724
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: respect for the rule of law. And I wish we

725
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: had a little bit more back for the rural law right.

726
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: Now, dwindle in your time.

727
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's terrible right now. I mean the

728
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: DOJ used to be this great costation, right that always

729
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: told the truth and always took the right position, and

730
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 2: always cared about consistency, And none of that's true anymore.

731
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: Well, when Trump got into office, I know made note

732
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: of the fact that to a degree or in some metric,

733
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared for how many other bad people would

734
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: come with him. I didn't realize this time the well,

735
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: the second term, forget it. But in the first term

736
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: even I remember saying to myself, I didn't know there

737
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: were that many bad people out there who were on

738
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: some political operatives rolodex. And now when the second term,

739
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: it's like, I.

740
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: Mean, how many prosecutors have quit and dj because they've

741
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: been asked to do things that they know are wrong.

742
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's terrible. I wanted to be a prosecutor.

743
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: Want he still a funny story. So I got an

744
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: internship when I was in law school to be prosecutor

745
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: Southern District of New York. And this was Bush one

746
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: and you had to fill out a form for security

747
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: and the forum had a pot question. So I go

748
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: to see the professor Columbian and I said, so give

749
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: me advice. What should I do? And he said, you're

750
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: supposed to say experimentally. So the first question was have

751
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: you smoked pot? I wrote yes, semi cola and experimentally.

752
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: The next question was how many times? And I wrote

753
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: twelve plus and the government said, sorry, we're withdrawing your offer.

754
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: And I went to the professor to tell the story.

755
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 2: He's like, what in the world were you thinking? Right,

756
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: experiment I said, I want to lie, I said.

757
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: My continuing experimentation. I was very You didn't want to lie,

758
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: but you realized that if the question is silly, like

759
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: you say yes, experiment how many times twice, you should

760
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: have lied. You should have lied in that appl because

761
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: you're too bunch of a girl scout to do.

762
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 2: I want to get my hands on that form somehow,

763
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to foid it.

764
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: Well, cut, yeah you should. What kind of work does

765
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: your wife do?

766
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: So she's been in Democratic politics part she was is

767
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: the Democratic State Committee person for Downtown Manhattan for twenty

768
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: some years and has worked down a whole bunch of

769
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 2: anti fracking, a whole bunch of policy stuff. Starting to

770
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 2: think that maybe it's time for a change, but that's

771
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: what she's devoted for. She was an activist when I

772
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: met her, and then she kind of did a lot

773
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: of policy throughout our marriage.

774
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: A lot of facting going on in New York.

775
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: No, she stopped it right. Oh well, with Governor Cuoma.

776
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: I was in Trump was elected. I went to do

777
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: that crazy and silly Trump stick those four years in

778
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: SNL from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty.

779
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 2: You may say it's crazy and silly, but it gave

780
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: a lot of people.

781
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: Well, people would say that to me, not.

782
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: Just pleasure from watching, but a lot of comfort.

783
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: Right. They wanted to have some laughs about what do

784
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: you think, let's say we win the mid terms, and

785
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: to me that gives me hope, yes, that we can

786
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: come back to some degree. It's never going to be

787
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: the same. Like they were saying. You saw the guy

788
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: from Canada said that they the Americans as the leader

789
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: of the free world is over. It's that damage, it's fractured,

790
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: it's over. And I thought, wow, what a disturbing I mean,

791
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily need the United States to be the

792
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: leader of the free world, but I thought I'd like

793
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: the United States to have the option to be the

794
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: leader of the free world if it was necessary, and

795
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: then if we could keep things together. And do you

796
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: think we're ever going to be able to put it

797
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: back together to We just don't know.

798
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about that a lot since Davos. Obviously. Look,

799
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: I think first of all, we have to put things

800
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: back together domestically, so we have to kind of redo

801
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: all the Watergate reforms, but in a way that works.

802
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: All the rules about independence and stopping corruption and disclosures

803
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: like we had them, but they're they were too easy

804
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: to get around. So I think all of that has

805
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: to change. And I have great respect for President Biden.

806
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: I think you did a good thing, but I don't

807
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: think he was tough enough on that stuff, and then

808
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: I think, once we fix our own house, which is

809
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: going to take time, we also obviously have to repair

810
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: our relationships with our allies. I mean, one thing I

811
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: know from the time I was in Russia is that

812
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: you know, the Russian government then and now is not

813
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: It's not a good thing. And what they're doing in

814
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 2: Ukraine is tragic and we need to have kind that

815
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: can work together to fight against that. We can't have

816
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: them go take Ukraine and then beyellow Russia and then Poland.

817
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 2: That would be horrific. We're not going to relive, as

818
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 2: my son would say, the last century.

819
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: Without getting into details. What's the case you're working on now?

820
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: Oh, so this is interesting. I can tell you this

821
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 2: is public, So this is not it's all about everything

822
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: we talked about roll up into one. So we have

823
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: a client. I have a client for many years. His

824
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: name is Imron Achmed. He runs it a not for

825
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 2: profit called the Center for Countering Digital Hate, and he's

826
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: a big critic of tech and he's written a lot

827
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: about problems on big tech and failure to moderate content, etc.

828
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 2: Elon Musk does not like him very much. He sued

829
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: him four years ago. I represented Elon in that case.

830
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 2: We got it dismissed. It's still on appeal and AX

831
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: recently got sanctioned by the EU for not for failing

832
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: to comply with their digital privacy law. And Elon got

833
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: very angry and got the State Department we believe to

834
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: say that my client screen card should be revoked. They

835
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: announced this on December twenty third. In the afternoon. We

836
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: go I see to my client, get your toush to

837
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 2: New York. We file papers on five o'clock on Christmas Eve,

838
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: saying you can't do this. This is about his speech. The

839
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: guy hasn't done it. You're not allowed to just kick

840
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: people out of the country because you don't like what

841
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: they say. And he's not criticised the American company. Since

842
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 2: when is that a problem? Like people criticize America companies

843
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: all the time. And we got an injunction twelve thirty

844
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 2: am on Christmas Day, So my team didn't have the

845
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: easiest holiday. But it's a great case. It's ongoing right now.

846
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: They can't do anything to him, but I'm going to

847
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 2: see you to litigated.

848
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: What do you think about that judge that smuggle the

849
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: presumed terrorists out of the courtroom and just got conviction.

850
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 2: She got convicted.

851
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: She got convicted. Boy boy, that seems like a tough

852
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: thing to do for judge to sit in judgement of

853
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: another judge who they believe has made a poor decision.

854
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: It was a poor.

855
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: Decision probably, if that's those are the facts it was.

856
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why our client is so different. There

857
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: are We do have rights to revoke visus for people

858
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 2: who support terrorists things like that, But criticizing X like

859
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 2: that makes no sense.

860
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: I've been saying the same thing. I'm likely that people

861
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: who are the faithful in this issue of campaign finance reform,

862
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: the ones I've worked with over the years, for many years.

863
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: This is my issue, other than plastics pollution and wanting

864
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: to ban single use plastics around the country, Campaign finance

865
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: reform is the lynchpin of all of our problems in

866
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: this country. What passes for leadership now that is able

867
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: to get bought and sold by the local business community.

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00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: If cash is speech, then he with the most cast

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00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: speaks the loudest. Was the line of us.

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00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 2: It's true.

871
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: If we don't change this, citizens united and get that overturn,

872
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,479
Speaker 1: I doubt we'll ever be able to get off the path.

873
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: We're wrong with that, and.

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00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: Which leads to the Supreme Court, which is a whole

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00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: other head.

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00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: We want to know what then let's ask let's go

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00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: out on that question. Look, I mean sixty.

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00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: Three, as someone who really believed in the system and

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00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: the role of law, the idea of Supreme Court reform

880
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: was hard for me to kind of get my arms around.

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00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: But I'm now at the point. I mean, we'll see

882
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: what they do on tariffs, We'll see what they do

883
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: on the FED. I think I think he's going to

884
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: lose both of those. But this idea that they just,

885
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: you know, so easily overturned precedence not Roe v. Wade

886
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,479
Speaker 2: and others that have existed for decades, is not good.

887
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: It doesn't give it's there's no faith in the system.

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00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: It's law. What do they say, what do they say

889
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: when they change it? What is it?

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00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: Basically said, it was wrong a lyough, it was wrong

891
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: when it was decided, and reliance doesn't matter, essentially, is

892
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: what he said. But it can't be that people have

893
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: so little faith in the Supreme Court. I know, I'm

894
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: assuming the Chief Justice is worried about this. I think

895
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: he needs to be more worried about it. I think

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00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: we have to restore that faith as well.

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00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: My thanks to lawyer Robbie Kaplan. This episode was recorded

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Speaker 1: at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Soo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. Our engineer

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00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: is Isaac Kaplan Woolner. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich.

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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you

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00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio