1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Good morning and Merry Christmas to you and your family. 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: This morning I'm joined by Bishop Robert Baron, the ninth 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Bishop of the Diocese of Wenona, Rochester and the founder 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: of Word on Fire, which I recommend to everyone. Bishop Baron, welcome, 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on News World here at Christmas. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: Would you mind starting us off with a message about 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: Christmas and what it means to you? 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on. 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: It's good to be with you, and Merry Christmas to 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: all the listeners today. You know, somebody the Church Father 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: said over and over again, was God became man, that 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: man might become God. And it might seem a little 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: peculiar at first, but it's based in the Bible, namely, 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 2: that God becomes one of us precisely to draw us 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 2: into his life. So the Greek fathers talked about theosis 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: in their language, but Thomas Aquinas picked it up in 17 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: the West. He used the word deificazio deification that we 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: become sharers in God's nature. God became one of us 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: that we might become sharers in his own life. And 20 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: that I think is the deepest meaning of Christmas. It's 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: the message of the incarnation, So not just a sort 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: of a strange one off, but somebody that's at the 23 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: very heart of our human life. That God is not 24 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: just a moral exemplar for us, but God is calling 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: us into intimacy with Himself. And that happens through the incarnation, 26 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: and that's the message of Christmas. God becomes this little baby. 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: God joins us in our weakness, our vulnerability, our finitude, 28 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: that we might become sharers in his own nature. I 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: always call it the marvelous humanism of Christianity. There's no humanism, 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: ancient or modern, that holds out a higher ideal for 31 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: human beings than Christianity, because the ordinary goal of the 32 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: Christian life is to become a sharer in God's nature. 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: So the humanism of our tradition is grounded by in 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: this great feast of Christmas. 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: In your own experience, how did you open up to God? 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: Well, Chris, I'm born and raised a Catholic, and so 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: I was, you know, brought up in the church and 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: going to Mass, and my parents were very devout Catholics. 39 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: An experience that I remember very vividly is I'm a 40 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: kid of what four or five at the time, maybe, 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: and simply watching my father at prayer on his knees 42 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: at Mass. You know, I thought of my father as 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: the most powerful person in the world, and to see 44 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: him humbly in the presence of a power greater than himself. 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: That had a huge impact on me when I was 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: a little kid. But then in a more refined way, 47 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: when I was in high school, I discovered Saint Thomas Aquinas. 48 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: And though I was a believer in God, to be sure, 49 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: but when I came across the arguments for God's existence, 50 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: I realized that you could think about God in a 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: very serious way, an intellectually serious way, And that beguiled 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: my when I was a kid and led me to 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: books and ideas and all that, and then it began 54 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: to reach into deeper parts of my soul. It reached 55 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: my heart. But I say, the witness of my parents, 56 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: especially my dad, and then the emergence of Thomas Aquinas 57 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: in my life when I was a teenager, those both 58 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: had a huge impact on me. 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: As you have grown in Christ, you created word on 60 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: fire which anybody can access in the world. What led 61 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: you to that? It's a great profound breakthrough in being 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: able to share the Gospel worldwide. You do it as 63 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: well as anybody I know. 64 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: I appreciate that, you know. I was a teacher at 65 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: the seminary outside Chicago, so I had been sent for 66 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: my doctoral studies to Paris. Loved books, Love the Life 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: of the Mind, got my doctorate, was able to travel 68 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: through Europe, and I had all those great experiences. Came 69 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: back and I was a teacher for a number of years, 70 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: taught courses. I began to write books. I was on 71 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: the Catholic speaker circuit, you know, going around giving retreats 72 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: and talks and so on. But it occurred to me 73 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: by the late nineties, so I've been teaching now for 74 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: seven or eight years, that there was so much more 75 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: we could do. I could spend the rest of my life. 76 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, writing books for a relatively small 77 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: audience and giving talks to rooms of two or three 78 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: hundred people. But I said, why not do what Fulton 79 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: Sheen did back in the thirties, forties and fifties. I mean, 80 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: why not use the technology available to us now? When 81 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: I started, it still was basically TV and radio and 82 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So I went to WGN Radio 83 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 2: in Chicago, the biggest radio station, and I said, just 84 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: for fun, tell me how much would it cost to 85 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: have a little sermon show. And they said to me, well, 86 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: for fifty thousand dollars, we'll put you on at five 87 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: point fifteen on Sunday morning. So I went to my 88 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: parish and I said, you know, just that, if you're 89 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 2: willing to help me, I can get on the radio 90 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 2: at five point fifteen. And God bless them, they did. 91 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: They gave me the money, and that's how it started. 92 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: It grew then to a website, and then I started 93 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: recording a number of talks I've been giving though got 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: on Catholic television, and my profile, you know, grew a bit. 95 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: And then we had a breakthrough with the Catholicism series, 96 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: which was modeled after Kenneth Clark Civilization, which is a 97 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: show that impacted me when I was a kid, this 98 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: great English art historian taking us all over the Western 99 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: world and showing us the great works of art. I said, 100 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: why not do something like that with Catholicism. So again, 101 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 2: scrape together the money. Somehow we did that, and that's 102 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: then really what brought it to a different level. And 103 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: then we began the podcasts and the YouTube and all 104 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: that business. But it started with just my conviction that 105 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: we should be doing more, that we could do more, 106 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: that Fulton Sheen was the model, but we had kind 107 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 2: of dropped the ball after Fulton Sheen. So that's what 108 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: inspired me. 109 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: Bishop Sheen made Christianity totally practical and totally irrelevant, and 110 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: did so with a sense of humor. He was a 111 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:53,239 Speaker 1: great showman. 112 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: He had a certain genius and part of it, you know, 113 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: was he was very highly trained in Catholic philosophy and theology. 114 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: He had the agrege, which is this advanced degree in 115 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 2: theology from Louvain University. So Sheen was a high level academic. 116 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: But he also had his finger on the pulse of 117 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: the culture. He understood American culture. For example, he used 118 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: a lot of psychology, used a lot of Freud because 119 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: he knew that Freud was sort of making his way 120 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: into the culture. He engaged in a lot of polemics 121 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: against communism, which was a major political theme of the day. 122 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: So he combined a rich Catholic intellectual formation with a 123 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: keen understanding of the culture. And as you say, I 124 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: think the humor was very important for Sheen. The greatest 125 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: comedians of the day. You know, Jackie Gleison and Milton 126 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: Borough admired his timing, his comic timing, so she was 127 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 2: able to pull that off in a rather extraordinary way. 128 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: And at the time there were what a handful of 129 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: TV stations, and so if you get on television in 130 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: those days, you were reaching much of the country. 131 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: It's hard nowadays, with the extraordinary range of opportunities to 132 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: remember what it was like back then. 133 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: Right, there's a flip side to it, because now you know, 134 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: we can be twenty four to seven all over the 135 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: world and all these different platforms. Sheen had to rely 136 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: on people coming at a particular time on the radio 137 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: or TV to hear him. In a way, we're in 138 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: a much better position than Sheen was in. 139 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: You make the point that when we talk about the 140 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: Christmas Story, we look at Luke's account, the story really 141 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: opens up by invoking two of the most powerful people 142 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: in the world. It says, well, Corinius was the governor 143 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: of Syria, and when Caesar Augustus was king of the world, 144 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: census was called. It never quite occurred to me until 145 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: I read your work that I've always seen that as 146 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: kind of placing it historically. But there's also drawing a 147 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: contrast that these two guys had secular power, but here 148 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: comes this little baby who in fact will have far 149 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: more power. 150 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: There's no question about it. I mean, Luke, all the 151 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: Gospel writers were literary as well as theological geniuses. And 152 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: the way he uses Quairindius and Augustus to kind of 153 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 2: haunt your mind as you read that story. So these 154 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: figures would have had all the things that we associate 155 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: with worldly power. They honor and prestige, and they had 156 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: armies behind them, and they had a comfortable place to 157 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: live and all of that. And then Luke tells this 158 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: story of this little nothing couple making their way to 159 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: this dusty outpost and the baby, it can't even be 160 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: born in the Travelers hostel, is born in a cave 161 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: or a stable, is put in the place where animals eat, 162 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: is wrapped up. In other words, has no power, no prestige, 163 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: no honor. Yet And I think the key to that 164 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: story is at the end when the angel who always 165 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: inspires fear in the Bible, when an angel appears from 166 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 2: another dimensional system, but then appearing with the single angel 167 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: is an entire army of angels. And see that's no 168 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: accident that an army is associated with the Baby King, 169 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: which is far more powerful than the army associated with 170 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 2: Quirinius or Caesar Augustus. And what I find extraordinary there is, 171 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: here's a man writing this story, let's say, around the 172 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: you're eighty or so of the first century, when Christians 173 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: were a tiny, tiny minority in a handful of cities 174 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: in the eastern Mediterranean. And yet he was saying very clearly, 175 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: this baby, this Messiah is more powerful than Caesar. And 176 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: at the time, I mean, it was an incredible thing 177 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: to say. But yet it's true, isn't it. I mean, 178 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 2: we're still here and Caesar is long gone. I mean, Christianity, 179 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: those following the Baby King were still a great world 180 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: power two thousand years later. The Caesars are long gone. 181 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 2: And so the gospel writers they got something, they understood something. 182 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: I think here even in our own time. You know, 183 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: you and I lived through the fall of the Soviet Union. 184 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: Who would have guessed when I was a teenager in 185 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: the seventies and someone told me that the Soviet Empire 186 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: would collapse with barely a shot being fired, and that 187 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 2: the pope would be a major player in it. That 188 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: would be wild fantasy. That's what happened. And the Christmas story, 189 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: you're quite right, is about that dynamic that the true 190 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: King and the true army are more powerful than the 191 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 2: armies of the world. 192 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: Kristen I did a movie called Nine Days the Change 193 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: the World. How about John Paul the second going back 194 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: and it's astonishing the impact he has and thegree to 195 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: which he suddenly arouses the Polish people. 196 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 2: You're quite right, and that's it's marvelous your documentary and 197 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: that whole story is marvelous. But it calls to mind 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: the Stalin line. Right, it was about Pius the twelfth. 199 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: How many divisions does the pope have when the pope 200 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: critiqued him, Well, the successor of pis the twelve brought 201 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: down the successor of Stalin without a single division. But 202 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: it speaks to spiritual power, which we've always known about. 203 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: Spiritual power can change the whole world. 204 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: There's a great line in the movie where George Weigel 205 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: quotes stalem and then says, you know, it turned out 206 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,239 Speaker 1: that the pope had far more divisions than Stalin never imagined. 207 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: That's quite right, and that signaled in the Christmas story 208 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: when this invisible army. I don't sentimentalize the angels of Christmas. 209 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: They're on every Christmas card and we sentimentalize them, but 210 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: they're not sentimental figures. In the Bible, angels are always 211 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: ferocious figures. They're fearsome figures. And now you get an 212 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: army of those together. That's what's associated with the Baby King, 213 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: which means the powers of the world should tremble seecause 214 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 2: at the heart of Christianity is a sort of taunt 215 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: to worldly power, because we hold up the Cross, which 216 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: struck first century people as exceedingly strange that you would 217 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 2: hold up the image of someone being tortured to death 218 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: by Roman power. But that's the kind of delicious poetry 219 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: of Christianity, as we hold that up as a sort 220 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: of taunt to the world to say, well, We're not 221 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: afraid of what you can do to us, because God's 222 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: love is more powerful than anything that you have. And 223 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: that's not just wishful thinking. You can see it in 224 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 2: the John Paul story. 225 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: What do you think most Christians miss from the celebration 226 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: of Christmas? 227 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: They miss the radicality and subversiveness of it, the two 228 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 2: things we've been talking about, because we sentimentalize it that's 229 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 2: the problem. It's Dickens, and Dickens was a great figure 230 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: and a great Christian. I don't want to be bad 231 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: mouthing Dickens, but we associate Christmas now with you know, 232 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: the Dickenzie in London, and we sort of romanticize it. 233 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: But Christmas in the Bible is subversive and it's radical. 234 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: God becomes one of us that we might become sharers 235 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: in his nature, and God becomes one of us in 236 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: order to lead a great spiritual army whose purposes to 237 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: conquer the world. And so in Jesus, the risen Christs 238 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: go forth and proclaim the Gospel to all nations and 239 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: to bring them under the lord ship of Jesus. Well, 240 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: that's not WEISTLM. 241 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: Dixie. 242 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: I mean, that's a very powerful summons. And the lordship 243 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 2: of Jesus means just that that he wants all of 244 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 2: life brought under his sovereignty. I think that's what people 245 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: miss when it comes to Christmas. 246 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I always look back on this with amazement that here's 247 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: this very small number of people who in their hearts 248 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: are so passionately, deeply committed that within a century they're 249 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: a worldwide movement. You look at that and you think 250 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: something mystical happened. 251 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: Something happened, Well, you know, I rely there on nt Right, 252 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: the great biblical historian, because Wright said, presin from religion 253 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: for a minute. Just from a purely historical standpoint, what 254 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,359 Speaker 2: is very hard to explain is the emergence of Christianity 255 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: as a Messianic movement. And what he meant was, at 256 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: that time and place, the clearest sign possible that you 257 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: were not the Messiah of Israel would be your death 258 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: at the hands of Israel's enemies, because the Ziah was 259 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: meant to be the king of the nations. And so 260 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: if someone wanted to say, look, your guy is not it, 261 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: all you'd have to do is say, look, the Romans 262 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: put him the death. Well, Christianity didn't hide that. On 263 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 2: the contrary, Paul says, that's all I preach is Christ 264 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: and him crucified. But at the same time they said, yeah, 265 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: the one that Caesar crucified, he is the Messiah of God. 266 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: And then to your point, it shows something happened. Even 267 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: to explain the emergence of this movement apart from the resurrection, 268 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: it's very hard to explain it. 269 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: It's the empty tomb, is the moment of realizing that 270 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: the effort of the establishment, both the Jewish establishment and 271 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: the Roman political establishment, has failed, that Christ in fact 272 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: is not dead. He was temporarily gone and is now 273 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: back right. 274 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: The most fundamental form of charigmatic preaching, so called the charigma, 275 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: being the basic good news. The basic form is Caesar 276 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: killed them, God raised him. That's what the first preacher said. 277 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: You kill them, your people, kill them, God raised them. 278 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: That's the coarigma, and that is a subversive sort of message. 279 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: That's a very challenging message, which is why most of 280 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: the first Christian preachers ended up in prison and put 281 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: to death, because the powers that be understood that. They 282 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: knew how radical this message was. Even Paul saying again 283 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: and again as he does, Jesus curios, Jesus is Lord, 284 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: because Kaiser was curios. Caesar was lord in that time 285 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: and place, and so to say no, not Caesar, but 286 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: Jesus is Lord. That's why Paul was in prison a lot, 287 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: and why they eventually cut his head off is they 288 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: knew how subversive that was. We've lost a lot of 289 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: that edginess. I'm afraid. 290 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: Part of it is you have to have people who 291 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: believe so deeply that they regard having their head cut 292 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: off as a reasonable trade. It is in that sense, 293 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: in the early days a religion of martyrs. Over and over. 294 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: Again witnesses and the blood of the martyrs the seat 295 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: of Christians is told said, and that's exactly how it worked. 296 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: But see it still works. When I was filming the 297 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: Catholism series, we were in Namogongo near Kampala, and that's 298 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: where Charles Lwanga and his companions were murdered in the 299 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds, and anyone watching that would have said, well, 300 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: that's the end of Christianity. But now every year on 301 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: his feat stage Dune the third, something like a million 302 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: people converge on that spot. And when I was there filming, 303 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: I was just sort of moved to quote Tertullian. I said, 304 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: the blood of the martyrs is still the seat of Christians. 305 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: And take a look. And then the camera panned out 306 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: to this enormous crowd. So it's still true, still. 307 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: True, when you are at Mass and you take the Eucharist, 308 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: the representation of Christ and the degree to which Christ 309 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: is in you. Two thousand years later, as experienced by 310 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: well over a billion, three hundred million people, is an 311 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: astonishing statement of faith. 312 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the distinctive mark of Catholic Christianity is we 313 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: don't think of Jesus as simply an inspiring teacher or 314 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: a distant historical figure. We eat him and we drink him, 315 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 2: We take him into our bodies. The Church Father said 316 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: that it's the way we become immortalized, so preparing ourselves 317 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: to live forever. Well, we become immortalized through the Eucharist, 318 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 2: so that the kind of wonderful, gritty realism of our 319 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: eucharistic faith, that Jesus is really truly and substantially present. 320 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 2: That matters a lot, because otherwise it's easy to think 321 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: of him, make him a very abstract figure. But no, 322 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: we eat him and we drink. 323 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: Him, and in that process there is a personal experience. 324 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: It seems to me that when you go, for example, 325 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: in Rome, to certain key places where there are martyrs, 326 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: and you realize these people, in a sense, were happy 327 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: to be martyred. They were dying in the absolute faith 328 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: of rebirth, and they felt that the people who weren't 329 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: prepared to be martyred were much poorer and we're not 330 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: going to in fact be reborn. 331 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's true in those days and 332 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: true in our time. Think of a Maximian Colbay and 333 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: the depth of the Holocaust in Auschwitz, but willingly gives 334 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: his life to save someone else. That's someone who's living 335 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 2: in a different plaine. That's someone who's opened up a 336 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: depth dimension to life. It's still true the Great Martyrs, 337 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: and that's still the source of the church's deepest life. 338 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: What was it like to move from Los Angeles to Minnesota? 339 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: It felt like come. I loved LA. I'm from Chicago originally, 340 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: and I was a priest there and I was rector 341 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: of the seminary there. Loved Chicago, but I'm very used 342 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: to the Midwest and Midwestern weather. I was sent to California, 343 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: to my infinite surprise. I was made an auxiliary bishop 344 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: out in LA and I was based in Santa Barbara, 345 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 2: which is one of the loveliest places in the whole country. 346 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: I loved it beautiful. But when I got the call, 347 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: and that's how it happens in the church. No one 348 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: ever talks to you. You've had no advance warning whatsoever. 349 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 2: It's not discussed with you in any way. You just 350 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: get a phone call out of the blue and it 351 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: was you've been appointed at Bishop of Wenona, Rochester, Minnesota. 352 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 2: My first thought was, I got to take out my 353 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: Chicago winter coat again, which had been hanging up for 354 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: six years in my closet. It felt like coming home. 355 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: I felt like coming back to a culture I was 356 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: very at home with. 357 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: Given modern technology, do you find it for all practical 358 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: purposes as easy to do? Word on fire from Wanona 359 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: to Rochester. 360 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 2: We're moving our studio to Rochester, right near the Mayo Clinic. 361 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: We're moving right downtown. We had it in Santa Barbara 362 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: at the wonderful Santa Barbe Remission. We were on the 363 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 2: grounds of the mission. We just picked up all the equipment, 364 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 2: shipped it out here and we've rented a space and 365 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: we're building it out now as a studio. But see 366 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 2: to your point. People said to me, oh, you know 367 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 2: you were out in Hollywood, and wasn't that better for communication. 368 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: I said, well, first of all, I wasn't in Hollywood. 369 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 2: I was two hours out in Santa Barbara. And secondly, 370 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 2: I said, we had our own equipment and studio, and 371 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: I can do it just as well from here as 372 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: I could from there, So that doesn't make a lot 373 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: of difference. 374 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: How much of your time does it take because it's 375 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: brilliantly done. 376 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 2: Well, that's due to my team. One of my team 377 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 2: members is right here next to me, is I record this. 378 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: We have about sixty people in Dallas, Chicago, now Rochester. 379 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: They're the ones who's so good at the creative side 380 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: of it and the tech side. I'm not very good 381 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 2: at the tech side of it. I would say it 382 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: takes about ten percent of my time. I usually write 383 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: a column every week, I do a commentary every week. 384 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 2: We filmed sermons, I have a couple of podcast shows. 385 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: So maybe takes ten percent of my time. But most 386 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: of my time now I'm the bishop of the diocese, 387 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: so I'm going to you know, meetings, doing liturgies this morning, 388 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 2: had masks, and then going for another mass later in 389 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 2: the day. So that's my work. That's ninety percent of 390 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: my work, and this is about ten percent. 391 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: I was very impressive. Your YouTube videos have been seen 392 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: by over ninety million times. 393 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: It's one hundred and twenty million now, I think, is 394 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 2: it one hundred and twenty million? 395 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, And my wife is one of the half million 396 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: people who get your daily email reflections. She literally has 397 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: told me of several people who've come to her and 398 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: who have been moved to convert to Catholicism by listening 399 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: to your reflections. 400 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: I mean, that's the whole plaison detre. That's the entire 401 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: reason we're doing this. So nothing makes me happier than that. 402 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's very important because every generation 403 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: has to operate within the world that they've discovered. I 404 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: was really struck a couple of years ago. I was 405 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: reading a novel about Paul and the Corinthians, and I 406 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: hadn't realized it, but the Romans had created this amazing 407 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: postal service. And one of the reasons you get all 408 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: of Paul's letters is whether he's in Malta or wherever 409 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: he is, he can literally write his dispatches and mail them. 410 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: And so here is the secular Roman imperial male carrying 411 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: this subversive message all over the Mediterranean. 412 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: That would eventually undermine Caesar. And that's been observed, you know, 413 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: for a while. So I think Christopher Dawson makes that 414 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 2: observation too, that at the moment when it was most needed, 415 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: there was a political structure. Think of the Roman roads, 416 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: as you say, the Roman postal system and relative peace. 417 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: So we just finished all the awful civil wars with 418 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: Caesar and Antony and Cleopatra and all that was over, 419 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 2: and so there was a kind of a relative peace 420 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: obtaining in the Roman world, and that enabled the message 421 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: to get out. And Paul used the technology of his time, 422 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: which was Roman roads and parchment in the postal system. 423 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 2: So that's what every generation has to do. 424 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: Can you talk about the Word on Fire Institute and 425 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: why you decided to found it? 426 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the Werdifire Institute was founded what about four 427 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 2: years ago now, and the idea it's a kind of 428 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: a think tan that's part of his purpose. We're gathering 429 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 2: fellows who are supposed to do research and writing and 430 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: producing of courses. So it's an online reality for the 431 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: most part. So people join the Institute, they become members, 432 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 2: and then they get access to all of our video material, 433 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: but also to specialized courses in theology, spirituality, practical evangelism, 434 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: et cetera. So the idea of the Institute is on 435 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 2: the base of the fellows in their work to form 436 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: lay people in the work of evangelization, because finally they're 437 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: in the front lines of it. I want to form 438 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: lay people to evangelize their own families, their own kids, 439 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: their own workplaces. So that's the point of the Word 440 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: on Fire Institute. And we do it through the fellows 441 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: and the courses and articles and books that they produce. 442 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: And one of your biggest impacts has been the award 443 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: winning documentary series Catholicism, which you syndicated, which was nominated 444 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: for an Emmy. That was a pretty courageous thing to 445 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: tackle a project of that size. 446 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: You know where that came from, I'll tell you exactly. 447 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: It was at a board meeting. This is the early days. 448 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: We didn't have much of a reach in those days. 449 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 2: And a board member said to me, father, you know, 450 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: if you're going crazy, dream big, what's your dream project? 451 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 2: And I laid out that project. I said, what Kenneth 452 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: Clark did in the seventies for Western Civilization, I'd like 453 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: to do for Catholicism that we go all over the world. 454 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 2: We'd film the most beautiful places, we would do it 455 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 2: at a high level of production value. So they paused 456 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 2: and they said, well, how come we can't do that. 457 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 2: I said, well, first of all, I need the permission 458 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: of my bishop. It was Cardinal George at the time, 459 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 2: was a great hero of mine. I said, then we 460 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: probably need I don't know, several million dollars, and so 461 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: they started working at it. They went down and talked 462 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: to the cardinal without me that the board went down 463 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: and said could you give him permission to do this? 464 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: And he said yes. And then we started fundraising and 465 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 2: we scraped the money together. When we got enough for 466 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 2: an episode, we'd go and we'd film and all that, 467 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 2: and then we back to zero. We started filming by 468 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: the Way twenty oh eight, and it was in the 469 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 2: fall of twenty eight that the economy collapsed, and so 470 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 2: a lot of our donors I remember saying, hey, father, 471 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: I want to help you, but I can't right now. 472 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: The stocks are so bad and I'm losing money. So 473 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: we scraped our way over two years and then got 474 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: that thing filmed. 475 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: We did a little bit of that in our couple 476 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: of movies we made, including Nine Days That Changed the World. 477 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: You hope you can pull it all together, because you 478 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: can't start until you're sure you can actually get it done. 479 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: It's a huge project. 480 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 2: It is a huge project, and the people involved in 481 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 2: that were marvelous, and one of them was Mike Leonard. 482 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: I don't remember that name. Mike was with The Today 483 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: Show for many years. He did the kind of human 484 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: interest stories feature pieces on Today's Show. And I knew 485 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: him from my parish in Chicago, and he's the one 486 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: that linked us to a lot of NBC people around 487 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: the world and so on. But we were sitting I remember, 488 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: for episode one, we're filming in the Holy Land and 489 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: we are in a pizza restaurant in Jerusalem and we're 490 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,959 Speaker 2: having dinner, and he said, you know, the church has 491 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: been going through such a time. This is twenty oh eight, 492 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 2: so we're just a few years after twenty oh two, 493 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: and he said, I wonder, you know, this could be 494 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: a tipping point, maybe we could start moving things back. 495 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: And so that state, in my mind, that's what we 496 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: wanted to do, was present the Catholic Church in its truth, 497 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 2: its beauty in a way that would be evangelically compelling. 498 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 2: And we didn't know when we were making it. 499 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: We had no. 500 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: Idea what the distribution strategy would be. We had no 501 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: idea if we could get it widely viewed. And it 502 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: was PBS came through and then they syndicated it and 503 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: it went all over the country. 504 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: Well, it's an amazing achievement. And now you have your 505 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: newest book, The Great Story of Israel, Election, Freedom, Holiness, 506 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: and I gather that's the first of a two part series. 507 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: It is, and that's growing out of this wonderful Word 508 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: on Fire Bible project. So we've now published two of these. 509 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 2: The third one's coming out pretty soon. It's just an 510 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: exceptionally beautiful, I think presentation of the Bible. We have 511 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: the biblical text, but then it's surrounded by commentaries. It's 512 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: a bit like the glosses from the Middle Ages when 513 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: they would have the text and then the commentary. But 514 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: we're drawing from the Church Fathers, from a quinas, from 515 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: John Paul the Second, from Chesterton and Newman and everybody else. 516 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: And then I've got some commentaries in there too, and 517 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: then also on the page are beautiful works of art. 518 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: And so it's just a very holistic approach. And our 519 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: hope was to draw people that wouldn't normally pick up 520 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: a Bible and they see small prints in double column 521 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: pages and lots of footnotes and they say, I'm not 522 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 2: going to read that. That this would draw them into 523 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: the beauty of the Word of God. And the first volume, heck, 524 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 2: I think that sold three hundred thousand copies. It was 525 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 2: just the Gospels, and then we did the rest of 526 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: the New Testament, and the third one coming out is 527 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 2: the first five books of the Old Testament. So my 528 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 2: book there that you referred to, it grew out of 529 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: that project. So as I'm doing all this commentary in 530 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: the Bible, it grew into really a book length thing, 531 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: and that's volume one. I'm looking at roughly half the 532 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 2: Old Testament. There we all under the rubric of trying 533 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 2: to draw people back to the Bible. 534 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: When you go back in the in the Middle Ages, 535 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: there was a lot of effort to use beauty to 536 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: bring people together. Many of them couldn't read that. They 537 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: could see the pictures. They could get a feel for 538 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: the storylines if you will. 539 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, but see the church I grew up with. I 540 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: come of age in the seventies. Right. First of all, 541 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: we dumbed it down. That was a huge mistake. Is 542 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: a smart tradition, but we dumbed it down. My generation 543 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: got butterflies and banners Catholicism, and it was a disaster pastorally, 544 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: because what happens is kids grow up and they have 545 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: serious questions and they're getting nothing like serious answers to them. 546 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 2: The second thing we did wrong in that period is 547 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: that we uglified Catholicism. Look at the churches built at 548 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: that time, the seventies and eighties. They're like these empty 549 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: Bauhause modernist structures and had nothing of the charm of 550 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,479 Speaker 2: the Romanesque or the Gothic or the ancient basilicas and 551 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: they became just sort of empty gathering places. Well, dumb down. 552 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 2: Uglified Catholicism is not compelling to people. And you know, 553 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: my generation answered by leaving in droves. 554 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: You know. 555 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: So one of the things I've been animated by is 556 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: a desire to make it beautiful and to make it smart. 557 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: And I think those two things are appealing to people. 558 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: They always happen. 559 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: I have a good friend, Liz lev who is a 560 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: remarkable student of religious art and history, and she says 561 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: that the Sistine Chapel in Michaelangelo was the Church's answer 562 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: to Martin Luther, that the effort to say to people 563 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: that there is a glory, there's an amazing beauty. And 564 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: of course you visit the Vatican Museum, you're sort of 565 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: surrounded by it. 566 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: It's amazing It's a very good point about Luthor because, 567 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: as you suggest there, he was against what he called 568 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: the theology of glory and he wanted purely the theology 569 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,719 Speaker 2: of the Cross. And there's a complex history behind that. 570 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: But the Catholic Church responded with Michaelangelo, and with Bernini 571 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: and with Caravaggio, responded with beauty. You do display the 572 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: glory of God through artistic beauty. And I think one 573 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: of the signs, one of the clearest signs of corruption, 574 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: is when we start destroying beautiful things. And we did 575 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: that at a time of the Reformation, we did it 576 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: in the ancient Iconoclass period, and honestly, we did it 577 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 2: in my lifetime. We destroyed a lot of beautiful things, 578 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: and that's a sign of corruption. Dumbing down Catholicism and 579 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: uglifying it are signs of corruption. 580 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,239 Speaker 1: I think that's right. And listen, I think you were 581 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: one of the people standing firmly for tradition. It's a 582 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: remarkable thing, and I want to thank you for joining me. 583 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: I want to wish you a very very merry Christmas 584 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: and a happy New Year. And I want to encourage 585 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: our listeners to visit your website. Ad word on Fire 586 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: dot org, where they can find more of your sermons, 587 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: articles and books. And I want to thank you personally 588 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: for joining me on news World. 589 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: Mister speaker, thank you very much. Merry Christmas to you. 590 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 2: It was a joy to talk to you today. 591 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests, Bishop Robert Baron. You can 592 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: get a link to word on Fire on our show 593 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingish 594 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan 595 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 596 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 597 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 598 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 599 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 600 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 601 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: of Newsworld can sign up for my three free weekly 602 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: columns at gingishthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. 603 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.