WEBVTT - Anthology of Horror, Volume 6 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:14.600 My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.799 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:20.760 we're back with another Anthology of Horror episode. I think 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.680 we're into the Halloween hangover part of the year. Is 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.480 that right? This is actually gonna be airing in November, now, 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.960 that's right. We're recording this the week of Halloween. We 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.080 wanted to keep recording Halloween content the week of Halloween, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.519 which means Halloween last an extra week in our publication schedule. 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.440 This is indeed going to be Anthology of Horror Volume six, 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.600 or we might say it's volume six six six, because 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.040 we're going to be considering some infernal subject matter in 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.680 this one. Do you know that due to textual variants 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.760 in the ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, there is 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.560 some debate about whether the original number was six six 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.600 six or six one six. They apparently both work as 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:07.959 a cipher for the name of Caesar Nero. Well, it's interesting, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.080 but you got it at six one six, not nearly 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.960 as a sinister it doesn't have the that doesn't have 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.160 the cinematic qualities you know, it doesn't have all that, 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.320 although the it's not backed up by by our b 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.120 cinema and our horror fiction. Though it does look a 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.200 little bit ominous with the two six is kind of 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.080 closing in on the one. I don't know. Yeah, I 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:29.039 could see it working, but but I think you're right 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.399 that the three sixes work better. Now, if you're not 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.679 familiar with the anthology of horror episodes that we put 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.960 out around Halloween, Uh, this is basically what the gimme 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.959 it consists of. We pick we each pick some some 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:48.680 particular episodes from either sci fi horror TV anthology shows 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.440 or anthology films. You know this This is stuff like 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.440 on TV, Tales from the Crypt, Tales from the Dark Side, 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.480 Black Mirror, et cetera. And then in the cinematic tradition, um, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.720 it's stuff like Tales from the Dark Side the movie 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.320 or Stephen King's Cat's Eye. That sort of thing. Uh, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:11.239 movies that contain generally like three or more mini segments, 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.600 each one a self contained story with some sort of 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.280 narrative structure holding it all together. Did we actually do 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.839 Stephen King's Cat's Eye in the previous year. I don't 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:21.760 think we did. I was tempted to this year because 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.720 they have that Quitters Inc. Episode, you know, where James 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.480 Woods learns to quit smoking by having his family tormented 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.720 by maniacs. It's it's like a smoking cession clinic run 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.560 by the mob, and yeah, they terrorize you. But like 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.160 anything that James Woods is in, James Woods is the 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.240 scariest part. Yeah, it's a um, I'm not sure how 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.120 that film really holds up. I mainly when I think 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.720 back on that film, I mainly remember the bit with 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.720 the little girl and the little troll and the and 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.520 the giant bedroom set they had to construct to make 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.440 it possible. Because one of the cool things is I 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.480 got to to to meet a guy who worked on 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.880 that production way, Yeah, and he had some some photos 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:03.960 from the set of this giant dad because once they 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:05.720 built it, they had to build a giant bed so 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.600 they could have somebody in that troll suit walk around 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:10.680 on it, and so there are pictures of the cast 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.320 members on the bed, you know, posing with it. Uh. 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.200 So it was it was a lot of fun. I 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.560 think it is the most the most fun aspect of 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:23.079 that particular film certainly the most memorable. Yeah. Yeah, if 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.040 you haven't seen it. The basic premises that there's like 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.480 a kindall sized troll that comes out of the wall 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.800 at night and it's attempting to suck a little girl's 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.480 life spirit out, but her cat must protect her, and 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.480 so the cat is actually the hero of the story, 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:36.800 maybe much like one of the films we're gonna be 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.960 talking about a little bit later. Yeah, yeah, definitely the 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.400 cat Cat's Eye does tie into something we're going to 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.640 discuss here in a little bit. But before we get 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.120 to the infernal world of cats, we're going to have 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:53.360 to consider the infernal world of a demonic bargains. So Joe, 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:58.360 set up your selection for Anthology of Horror volume six. Okay, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.600 I think I've established a precedent, at least in one 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.760 of the previous years, maybe in both that I've always 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.480 got to talk about a Treehouse of Horror because I 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.360 love the Simpsons the Treehouse of Horror episodes or maybe 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.560 my favorites of all time, and today I'm gonna be 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.480 talking about the devil in Homer Simpson. This is one 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.640 of the all time great Treehouse of Horror segments. It 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.479 is I think from season four from tree House of 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.680 Horror three. Uh yeah, that this This always throws me 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.080 off anytime I'm trying to keep my Treehouse is straight, 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.039 because each one has a different number that's one off 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.360 from the the the season year. So I lose track 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.640 if i'm if I'm looking for four, Am I talking 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.240 about season four? Am I talking about Treehouse four? Yeah? 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.400 It's like centuries, right, how like the first century does 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.919 not start with the number one, and the second century 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.839 starts with the number one. Yeah, it's easier to just 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.640 start watching Treehouse of Horror episodes and just stop when 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:56.200 you can't really take it anymore. But okay, So the 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.960 premise of the Devil in Homer Simpson is that Homer 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.479 Simpson is trapped at work and his boring job at 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.320 the Nuclear Power Plan. I think he's supposed to be 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.800 the safety inspector, and he is fiercely covetous of a snack. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.360 He really wants a donut, but Lenny and Carl ate 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.400 all the other donuts or somebody ate them, and then 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.640 Homer goes looking for his emergency backup. Donut opens up 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.159 like a book that he's cut out the inside inside 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.080 of it. I think it's the the operation manual for 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.280 his nuclear safety equipment and uh. He finds that, in fact, 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.239 the donut that is supposed to be in there is missing, 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.000 and instead there's a note that says like, dear Homer, 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.120 iou one donut. Uh. And he's you know, like damn it, 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.279 he's always one step ahead of me. Uh. So he 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.119 announces to no one in particular that he would sell 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.160 his soul for a donut. And of course when you're 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.320 talking to nobody in particular, there is somebody listening, and 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.880 it's the Devil. So Satan appears in the form of 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.880 Ned Flanders with goat legs and a pitchfork in a 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.200 cool red jacket, and he makes a deal with Homer. 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.440 The Devil will supply Homer with a donut and Homer 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.880 will render his soul. Now, briefly, Homer believes that he's 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.480 outsmart at the devil because he realizes he can eat 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.560 all but the last bite of the doughnut and still 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:17.240 keep his soul. But then, unfortunately, sometime later, Homer is 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.479 maybe sort of sleepwalking or at least is hungry for 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.120 a midnight snack, and he disregards the notes all over 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.800 the leftover donut bite in the fridge that say things 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.000 like Dad's soul donut do not eat, and he eats it, 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.760 and then when he does, Flanders appears to claim his prize. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.160 But then Marge intervenes and she says, you know, Homer 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.359 should receive a fair trial. So in the meantime, Homer 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.320 gets sent to hell for a day where the demons 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.560 attempt to ironically torture him by force feeding him thousands 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.200 of donuts, but Homer doesn't really seem to be bothered 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.599 by this, and in the end Homer wins the trial 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.440 Merchant of Venice style on a technicality when Marge cleverly 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.280 proves that he had in fact already handed over possession 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.200 of his soul to somebody else to her, so the 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.719 soul was not really his to sell in the first place, 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.039 so it was it was a no go deal to 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.320 begin with. But then in the end, the devil gets 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.800 his revenge and he turns Homer's head into a giant donut, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.840 which Homer will of course forever be picking at and 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.080 and snacking on. Yeah, you get the idea that that 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.120 he's still pretty doomed because he's it's like the next 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.040 day or something, you know, and he's already picking at 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.040 his his donut hit. Yes, it's the same kind of 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.360 bad thinking that led them to keep the original piece 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.160 of Homer's soul donut in the fridge instead of just 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:38.120 like throwing it out or destroying it or something. Right. Yeah, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.920 this this is a wonderful episode. One one of these 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.840 episodes I've watched more times than I can remember. I 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.200 watched it this year, in fact, as we introduced our 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.520 son to the Simpsons tree House of Horror horror episodes. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.600 One of my favorite parts of this that is that 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.880 when we get to the actual trial, of course, Lionel 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:01.560 Huts briefly serves as the Simpsons defensivetorne any during the proceedings, 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.880 before I believe he runs away like he he quite 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.280 The great thing about Lionel Huts is that he always 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:12.400 has uh like enormous overconfidence that he can do these things, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:18.080 but like but has so incapable of of performing. But 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.520 then he he In this episode, he realizes it has 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:22.920 to go to the bathroom and like escapes through the window. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:27.680 He's the quintessential American character, just endless confidence, no competence 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.880 and in the end runs away. Right. There's also a 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:32.840 great moment where he's just combing his hair with a 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.280 fork as he walks into frame. Yeah. So obviously this 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.080 is a great opportunity to talk about deals with the devil, 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.600 because I think deals with the devil are interesting in 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.440 in multiple domains, one from a sort of history of 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.680 religions point of view and another from a psychological point 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.760 of view. And one of the things I'd like to 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.680 start by talking about is that while the contract with 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.680 the devil, the deal with Satan may seem like a 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:02.000 perversion of the religious impulse, I would argue that actually 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:07.600 the more personalized and asymmetrical relationship between God and the 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.920 believer in the modern Abrahamic religions is really the qualitative 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.880 outlier from a historical perspective, for a huge amount of 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.320 religion throughout all of history, the relationship between the believer 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.640 and the gods has been seen as significantly more practical 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.080 and contractual. You know, from this God, I want this 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.920 particular blessing or favor, and in return I offer this 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.960 ritual or this sacrifice. Uh So, for example, an ancient 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.120 Roman religion, there is actually a term for this. It's 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.720 dot deaths, meaning I give that you might give back, 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.920 So I will sacrifice a goat at your shrine or 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.800 I will do whatever ritual. I will burn incense for you, 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.480 and in return you will give me a good harvest, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.080 or you will heal my sick child, etcetera. Yeah, and 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:00.199 and this also, like it's an easy, easy parallel, well 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.000 to say, ap pledging your loyalty to some sort of 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.920 tribal lord exactly. I mean, this is one of the 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.640 ways in which the farther you go back in religion, 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:15.079 the more religious relationships seem to mirror political practical types 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.240 of relationships than than a lot of the big religions 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.280 due today. So in a way, the deal with the devil, 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.640 I would say, is not a myth archetype that needed 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:29.560 to be invented out of whole cloth by Christian storytellers. Instead, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.880 it just took an extremely ancient, extremely common way of 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:39.679 practicing religion and put a nefarious, infernal gloss on it. Like, 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.360 the part that remains unchanged is that there's devotee and 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.480 they ask for some kind of supernatural deliverance or aid. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.680 But now instead of sacrificing a cow to Minerva to 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.040 get what you want, you have to pay some kind 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.280 of ultimate price, some unreasonable price, like your eternal soul 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.160 or your child or something, and you it not to 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.120 some god of a particular domain, but to the anti God, 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.680 the figure of evil incarnate. So clearly the Simpsons segment 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.200 here is drawing on the Christian tradition of the deal 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.800 with the Devil. But I would say that that is 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.559 not a an archetype that originates with Christianity. It's more 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.160 a sort of reimagining of traditional religion with a very 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.120 negative spin on it. Yeah, I mean it kind of 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.760 breaks too, of applying a satanic paint job to to 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:32.880 pre Christian religious traditions as well, exactly. But since this 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.440 episode is dealing with the Christian tradition of the deal 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:36.840 with the Devil, I also want to look at the 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:41.480 history of how that idea developed. So in the Christian tradition, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.839 the oldest story of an attempted deal with the devil 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.360 that I'm aware of actually takes place in the Bible. 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.440 It's in the Gospels in the New Testament. So after 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.640 Jesus's baptism, he goes out into the wilderness to fast 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.720 for forty days and forty nights, and during that time, 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.439 the devil appears to him and offers him temptations, and 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.560 the temptations culminate in this passage in the Gospel of 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.000 Matthew that goes as fall as This is in chapter four, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.719 Versus eight to nine. Quote again, the devil took him 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.800 up on an exceedingly high mountain and showed him all 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.360 the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.000 said to him, all these things I will give you 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.360 if you will fall down and worship me. Now, of course, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.840 Jesus refuses this temptation. He says, well, I'm only going 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.640 to worship the Lord as commanded in the scripture. But 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.240 the suggestion of the architecture is there, if he had 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.240 taken the devil up on his bargain, he would have 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.600 surrendered something extremely important. It's not made clear exactly what 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.040 that is, but he would have sort of sort of 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.040 like surrendered righteousness or surrendered godhood or something like that, 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.760 and in return he would be granted, you know, this 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.640 great earthly power. Yeah, I guess the way the way 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.080 I've I've often seen it presented. What it's like, you know, 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.680 Jesus on this mission to save the world, and the 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.080 devil says, hey, but what if you didn't save the world. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.199 What if I set you up all nice and uh, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.240 and and fancy here, and then you could just kind 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.760 of like rule the world. That'd be pretty good too, right, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.560 Why don't we do that? Then everybody's happy? Yes, And 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:10.960 so there might be a question like, wait a minute, 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.520 why would the devil be offering the world to Jesus, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.400 Like wouldn't Jesus have more domain over the world anyway 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.960 that he's the ruler of the kingdom of the air though, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.200 That's right. Yes, this gets into some interesting stuff about 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.640 apocalypticism that I want to talk about in just a minute. 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.120 Uh So to follow more about the Christian tradition of 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.160 the deal with the Devil, I was looking at an 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.960 entry in the Dictionary of Biblical Tradition and English Literature 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.720 edited by David Lyle Jeffrey, and there's a good entry 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.040 on the tradition of packs with the Devil by Camille 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.839 or Labossi are So. Regarding the temptation of Jesus in 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.600 the Wilderness, Lebassi air points out that the primary appeals 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.480 in this story are to pride, which is kind of interesting, 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.800 Like in one of the temptations, Satan asks Jesus to 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.080 bow down and worship him, but in the others he 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.240 simply Jesus to make a vulgar display of his own power. 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.920 He says, Okay, you've been fasting for forty days. If 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.080 you're so hungry, why don't you turn these stones into bread. 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.080 And there's a very interesting passage in the Gospel of 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.400 Mark that that ties into the idea of deals with 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.720 the devil as well. Now, the Gospel of Mark is 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.360 the earliest of the four Gospels in the New Testament. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.360 It probably represents the earliest stages of a lot of 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.200 these stories about jesus life. And in this story, Jesus 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.520 has been performing miracles, he's healing the sick, he's exercising demons. 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.440 He gathers the twelve Disciples to follow him, and then 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.880 in chapter three, verse twenty two, he gets a challenge 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.600 from the religious scholars. The religious scholars come up to 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.720 him and it says they came down from Jerusalem and 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.160 they said, quote, he hath beel's abub and by the 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.640 prince of devils, casteth he out devils. So they're saying, look, 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.280 I know how he's casting out devils. He's made a 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.040 deal with with like the head demon, the chief devil, 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.360 and he's using that demon power to cast out these 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.000 devils so he can win win over you peasants here. Uh. 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.440 And this is interesting because so earlier this year I 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.240 had the biblical historian Bart Erman on the podcast to 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.600 talk about where the Christian concepts of heaven and Hell 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.960 came from and how they developed over time. And if 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.400 you haven't checked that episode out, I recommended. I thought 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.800 Bart was a really fantastic guest. But one of the 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.200 historical trends that he talks about in a lot of 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.040 his work, and he discusses in that episode as well, 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:31.080 is the development of what's known as apocalyptic theology in 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:35.680 Judaism in the centuries leading up to the birth of Christianity. Uh. 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.440 And it's a little bit complicated, but I'll try to 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.520 do the brief simplified version, and it goes like this. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:46.840 For many centuries, the Jewish prophetic tradition had attributed misfortunes 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.360 of the Jewish people to punishment for their sins. So 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.120 it would be like, oh, you were conquered by the 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.160 Babylonians and your crops were eaten by the locust. That 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:59.480 is because God is punishing you for your wickedness. But eventually, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.120 over time, I'm sort of the manifest unfairness of this 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:07.680 theology became untenable for many Jews, like, how does it 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.960 make sense that my three year old child is being 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.120 punished for the sins of our king? And so a 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.200 new theology arose within the Jewish religion to explain suffering, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.600 and that was that suffering was not punishment for sins, 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.920 but it was the result of the faithful children of 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:29.160 Israel being persecuted and victimized by forces of darkness. The 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.760 idea is that there are evil rulers and evil powers 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.280 who have made deals with the Devil, who have gone 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:40.640 into cooperation with a powerful evil being who is opposed 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.400 to God, and this is the Devil, and God will 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.840 eventually destroy the Devil and destroy these evil rulers who 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.040 are in league with him, and will right all wrongs. 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.240 But until then we're stuck under the boot of these 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.520 wicked temporal powers who are allied with and empowered by Satan. 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.360 It's essentially kind of a dystopian um attempt for religion, yes, 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.400 very much so, but with the idea that eventually everything 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.880 would be fixed, that ultimately God is sovereign, ultimately good 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.400 will win over evil. But now we're stuck in this 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:16.040 bad middle period where we're suffering under the arrangements made 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.000 with the evil forces. It's the Matrix kind of, yes, 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.560 though it would develop into even more Matrix e directions 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.119 with the advent of Gnosticism, which is one of the 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.080 most fun things if you actually go back and watch 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.919 the Matrix after learning about Gnostic theology, there are huge 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.560 overlaps there that are that are very fun to mess 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.720 around with. Yeah, I'm looking forward. I'm not sure when 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.480 will be the right time, but I'm looking forward to 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.480 rewatching all those films because it's been a long time 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:47.200 and I know they've got the Matrix four in the works. Really, Yeah, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.000 I feel more excited about that than I should be. No, 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.920 I mean, I think that there's a lot of room 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.040 to explore. I'm I'm interested to see what they put together. 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:00.440 But anyway, to come back to these ancient theological def elements. 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.160 Another thing that I think is interesting about the development 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:08.000 of apocalyptic theology is the idea of wicked people being 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.760 empowered by a pact with Satan or demons. That could 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.399 sort of be viewed as a logical inversion of the 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:19.439 belief that the Jewish people were protected by what they 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.000 called a covenant with the God of Israel. A covenant 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.400 is essentially a contract that they would worship him exclusively, 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.760 scorning all other gods, and he would protect them as 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.960 a people. But anyway, given the popularity of this type 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:36.199 of apocalyptic thinking around the first century CE, I think 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.320 it makes sense that the author of the Gospel might 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.640 have a story like this here, where Jesus's enemies who 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.240 don't understand him would accuse him of somehow being empowered 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.679 through a packed with demonic forces, like maybe they, in 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.280 the author's view here, misunderstand Jesus as one of these 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.280 evil princes, one of these evil powers, who has been 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.320 allied against the good people. It's almost like they're accusing 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.600 them selling out, Yes, exactly. Uh. And Labassier points out 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.840 that many early Christian Church fathers, such as Justin Martyr 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.600 and Origin, they allege that people who possess powers like divination, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.240 so the power to acquire otherwise hidden knowledge or to 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.920 predict the future, that people who have these powers acquire 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.399 them through arrangements with the devil. Especially influential in this 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.000 respect is the writing of St. Augustine in his theological 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.680 work on Christian doctrine. He claimed that people who have 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:37.359 apparent magical powers, such as divination or prognostication, they gain 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:42.240 these powers through consultations, pacts and contracts with demons. And 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.879 there's a passage in St. Augustine that's quoted as an 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.479 authority on the subject of all through the Middle Ages 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.200 and is repeated in in canon law and the Catholic Church. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.800 But in the Middle Ages it's when the stories about 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.399 these kinds of pacts get get more developed. So the 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.520 Middle Ages saw a proliferate shtion of folk tales about 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.399 pacts with the devil, especially concerning deals between the devil 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.399 and a powerful or learned man. So one example is 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.679 the story of Saint Cyprian, who Labossierre says, is a 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:18.000 quote megas philosophists, or you know, like a magician philosopher, 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.040 a man of great arcane learning, uh quote, who strikes 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.399 a bargain with the devil to learn the secrets of 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:28.320 the universe. But he he gets turned around. He responds 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.240 to the appeals of a virtuous woman uh named Justina 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.080 or Juliana, and he repents of his wicked pact, so 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.280 he gets out of it. And even more well known 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.639 in the Middle Ages is the story of the Afulus 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.520 of a Donna, and I thought this was a lot 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.639 of fun. So the Awfulis was a cleric who is 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.639 said to have lived in the sixth century in Asia Minor. 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.320 This would be in uh Silicia and modern day Turkey, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.280 so that's like the southern part of modern day Turkey. 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.399 And the story goes that Theophilist is an archdeacon of 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.080 a donna. He's like, he's a high up guy in 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.720 the church, but he's a very humble and righteous man, 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.679 and he is elected to become a new bishop in 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.400 a donna, but out of humility, he turns down the position. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.560 He's like, oh no, no, I am not worthy. So 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.080 a different guy gets elected bishop instead. But then, in 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.760 a cruel twist of fate, the new bishop is swayed 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:26.040 by some false rumors about theophilists character and he kicks 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:31.040 the Awfulis out of his archdeaconship, and the Afulist is mad. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.800 He does not like this, so he's like, I've been wronged. 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.560 I've got to get revenge. And in a quest for revenge, 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.520 he seeks out the aid of a sorcerer sometimes described 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.199 as a necromancer, and this guy helps the Awfulist right 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.000 out of contract with the devil in his own blood. 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.000 The devil will give the awfulst the bishopric of a Donna, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.080 and in return, the Afulist will renounce Christ, renounce the 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.439 Virgin Mary, and hand over his soul to Satan. And 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.040 the deal goes through and he becomes the bishop. The 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.920 devil delivers his half of the bargain, but then Theophilist 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.160 gets cold feet. It's like, oh no, I really screwed up. 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:11.960 So he gets scared he's going to go to hell 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.840 and he ends up fasting for a couple of periods, 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.600