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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with another Anthology of Horror episode. I think

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Speaker 1: we're into the Halloween hangover part of the year. Is

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Speaker 1: that right? This is actually gonna be airing in November, now,

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Speaker 1: that's right. We're recording this the week of Halloween. We

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Speaker 1: wanted to keep recording Halloween content the week of Halloween,

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Speaker 1: which means Halloween last an extra week in our publication schedule.

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Speaker 1: This is indeed going to be Anthology of Horror Volume six,

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Speaker 1: or we might say it's volume six six six, because

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Speaker 1: we're going to be considering some infernal subject matter in

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Speaker 1: this one. Do you know that due to textual variants

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Speaker 1: in the ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, there is

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Speaker 1: some debate about whether the original number was six six

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Speaker 1: six or six one six. They apparently both work as

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Speaker 1: a cipher for the name of Caesar Nero. Well, it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: but you got it at six one six, not nearly

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Speaker 1: as a sinister it doesn't have the that doesn't have

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Speaker 1: the cinematic qualities you know, it doesn't have all that,

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Speaker 1: although the it's not backed up by by our b

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Speaker 1: cinema and our horror fiction. Though it does look a

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Speaker 1: little bit ominous with the two six is kind of

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Speaker 1: closing in on the one. I don't know. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: could see it working, but but I think you're right

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Speaker 1: that the three sixes work better. Now, if you're not

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Speaker 1: familiar with the anthology of horror episodes that we put

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Speaker 1: out around Halloween, Uh, this is basically what the gimme

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Speaker 1: it consists of. We pick we each pick some some

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Speaker 1: particular episodes from either sci fi horror TV anthology shows

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Speaker 1: or anthology films. You know this This is stuff like

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Speaker 1: on TV, Tales from the Crypt, Tales from the Dark Side,

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Speaker 1: Black Mirror, et cetera. And then in the cinematic tradition, um,

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Speaker 1: it's stuff like Tales from the Dark Side the movie

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Speaker 1: or Stephen King's Cat's Eye. That sort of thing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: movies that contain generally like three or more mini segments,

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Speaker 1: each one a self contained story with some sort of

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Speaker 1: narrative structure holding it all together. Did we actually do

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Speaker 1: Stephen King's Cat's Eye in the previous year. I don't

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Speaker 1: think we did. I was tempted to this year because

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Speaker 1: they have that Quitters Inc. Episode, you know, where James

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Speaker 1: Woods learns to quit smoking by having his family tormented

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Speaker 1: by maniacs. It's it's like a smoking cession clinic run

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Speaker 1: by the mob, and yeah, they terrorize you. But like

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Speaker 1: anything that James Woods is in, James Woods is the

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Speaker 1: scariest part. Yeah, it's a um, I'm not sure how

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Speaker 1: that film really holds up. I mainly when I think

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Speaker 1: back on that film, I mainly remember the bit with

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Speaker 1: the little girl and the little troll and the and

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Speaker 1: the giant bedroom set they had to construct to make

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Speaker 1: it possible. Because one of the cool things is I

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Speaker 1: got to to to meet a guy who worked on

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Speaker 1: that production way, Yeah, and he had some some photos

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Speaker 1: from the set of this giant dad because once they

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Speaker 1: built it, they had to build a giant bed so

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Speaker 1: they could have somebody in that troll suit walk around

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Speaker 1: on it, and so there are pictures of the cast

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Speaker 1: members on the bed, you know, posing with it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So it was it was a lot of fun. I

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Speaker 1: think it is the most the most fun aspect of

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Speaker 1: that particular film certainly the most memorable. Yeah. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen it. The basic premises that there's like

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Speaker 1: a kindall sized troll that comes out of the wall

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Speaker 1: at night and it's attempting to suck a little girl's

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Speaker 1: life spirit out, but her cat must protect her, and

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Speaker 1: so the cat is actually the hero of the story,

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Speaker 1: maybe much like one of the films we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about a little bit later. Yeah, yeah, definitely the

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Speaker 1: cat Cat's Eye does tie into something we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss here in a little bit. But before we get

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Speaker 1: to the infernal world of cats, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: to consider the infernal world of a demonic bargains. So Joe,

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Speaker 1: set up your selection for Anthology of Horror volume six. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I think I've established a precedent, at least in one

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Speaker 1: of the previous years, maybe in both that I've always

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Speaker 1: got to talk about a Treehouse of Horror because I

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Speaker 1: love the Simpsons the Treehouse of Horror episodes or maybe

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Speaker 1: my favorites of all time, and today I'm gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about the devil in Homer Simpson. This is one

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Speaker 1: of the all time great Treehouse of Horror segments. It

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Speaker 1: is I think from season four from tree House of

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Speaker 1: Horror three. Uh yeah, that this This always throws me

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Speaker 1: off anytime I'm trying to keep my Treehouse is straight,

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Speaker 1: because each one has a different number that's one off

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Speaker 1: from the the the season year. So I lose track

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Speaker 1: if i'm if I'm looking for four, Am I talking

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Speaker 1: about season four? Am I talking about Treehouse four? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: It's like centuries, right, how like the first century does

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Speaker 1: not start with the number one, and the second century

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Speaker 1: starts with the number one. Yeah, it's easier to just

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Speaker 1: start watching Treehouse of Horror episodes and just stop when

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Speaker 1: you can't really take it anymore. But okay, So the

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Speaker 1: premise of the Devil in Homer Simpson is that Homer

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Speaker 1: Simpson is trapped at work and his boring job at

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Speaker 1: the Nuclear Power Plan. I think he's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: the safety inspector, and he is fiercely covetous of a snack.

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Speaker 1: He really wants a donut, but Lenny and Carl ate

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Speaker 1: all the other donuts or somebody ate them, and then

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Speaker 1: Homer goes looking for his emergency backup. Donut opens up

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Speaker 1: like a book that he's cut out the inside inside

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Speaker 1: of it. I think it's the the operation manual for

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Speaker 1: his nuclear safety equipment and uh. He finds that, in fact,

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Speaker 1: the donut that is supposed to be in there is missing,

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Speaker 1: and instead there's a note that says like, dear Homer,

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Speaker 1: iou one donut. Uh. And he's you know, like damn it,

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Speaker 1: he's always one step ahead of me. Uh. So he

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Speaker 1: announces to no one in particular that he would sell

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Speaker 1: his soul for a donut. And of course when you're

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Speaker 1: talking to nobody in particular, there is somebody listening, and

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Speaker 1: it's the Devil. So Satan appears in the form of

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Speaker 1: Ned Flanders with goat legs and a pitchfork in a

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Speaker 1: cool red jacket, and he makes a deal with Homer.

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Speaker 1: The Devil will supply Homer with a donut and Homer

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Speaker 1: will render his soul. Now, briefly, Homer believes that he's

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Speaker 1: outsmart at the devil because he realizes he can eat

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Speaker 1: all but the last bite of the doughnut and still

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Speaker 1: keep his soul. But then, unfortunately, sometime later, Homer is

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Speaker 1: maybe sort of sleepwalking or at least is hungry for

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Speaker 1: a midnight snack, and he disregards the notes all over

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Speaker 1: the leftover donut bite in the fridge that say things

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Speaker 1: like Dad's soul donut do not eat, and he eats it,

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Speaker 1: and then when he does, Flanders appears to claim his prize.

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Speaker 1: But then Marge intervenes and she says, you know, Homer

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Speaker 1: should receive a fair trial. So in the meantime, Homer

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Speaker 1: gets sent to hell for a day where the demons

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Speaker 1: attempt to ironically torture him by force feeding him thousands

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Speaker 1: of donuts, but Homer doesn't really seem to be bothered

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Speaker 1: by this, and in the end Homer wins the trial

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Speaker 1: Merchant of Venice style on a technicality when Marge cleverly

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Speaker 1: proves that he had in fact already handed over possession

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Speaker 1: of his soul to somebody else to her, so the

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Speaker 1: soul was not really his to sell in the first place,

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Speaker 1: so it was it was a no go deal to

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Speaker 1: begin with. But then in the end, the devil gets

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Speaker 1: his revenge and he turns Homer's head into a giant donut,

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Speaker 1: which Homer will of course forever be picking at and

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Speaker 1: and snacking on. Yeah, you get the idea that that

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Speaker 1: he's still pretty doomed because he's it's like the next

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Speaker 1: day or something, you know, and he's already picking at

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Speaker 1: his his donut hit. Yes, it's the same kind of

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Speaker 1: bad thinking that led them to keep the original piece

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Speaker 1: of Homer's soul donut in the fridge instead of just

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Speaker 1: like throwing it out or destroying it or something. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this this is a wonderful episode. One one of these

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Speaker 1: episodes I've watched more times than I can remember. I

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Speaker 1: watched it this year, in fact, as we introduced our

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Speaker 1: son to the Simpsons tree House of Horror horror episodes.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite parts of this that is that

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Speaker 1: when we get to the actual trial, of course, Lionel

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Speaker 1: Huts briefly serves as the Simpsons defensivetorne any during the proceedings,

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Speaker 1: before I believe he runs away like he he quite

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Speaker 1: The great thing about Lionel Huts is that he always

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Speaker 1: has uh like enormous overconfidence that he can do these things,

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Speaker 1: but like but has so incapable of of performing. But

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Speaker 1: then he he In this episode, he realizes it has

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Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom and like escapes through the window.

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Speaker 1: He's the quintessential American character, just endless confidence, no competence

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Speaker 1: and in the end runs away. Right. There's also a

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Speaker 1: great moment where he's just combing his hair with a

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Speaker 1: fork as he walks into frame. Yeah. So obviously this

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Speaker 1: is a great opportunity to talk about deals with the devil,

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Speaker 1: because I think deals with the devil are interesting in

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Speaker 1: in multiple domains, one from a sort of history of

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Speaker 1: religions point of view and another from a psychological point

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Speaker 1: of view. And one of the things I'd like to

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Speaker 1: start by talking about is that while the contract with

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Speaker 1: the devil, the deal with Satan may seem like a

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Speaker 1: perversion of the religious impulse, I would argue that actually

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Speaker 1: the more personalized and asymmetrical relationship between God and the

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Speaker 1: believer in the modern Abrahamic religions is really the qualitative

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Speaker 1: outlier from a historical perspective, for a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: religion throughout all of history, the relationship between the believer

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Speaker 1: and the gods has been seen as significantly more practical

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Speaker 1: and contractual. You know, from this God, I want this

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Speaker 1: particular blessing or favor, and in return I offer this

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Speaker 1: ritual or this sacrifice. Uh So, for example, an ancient

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Speaker 1: Roman religion, there is actually a term for this. It's

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Speaker 1: dot deaths, meaning I give that you might give back,

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Speaker 1: So I will sacrifice a goat at your shrine or

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Speaker 1: I will do whatever ritual. I will burn incense for you,

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Speaker 1: and in return you will give me a good harvest,

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Speaker 1: or you will heal my sick child, etcetera. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and this also, like it's an easy, easy parallel, well

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Speaker 1: to say, ap pledging your loyalty to some sort of

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Speaker 1: tribal lord exactly. I mean, this is one of the

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Speaker 1: ways in which the farther you go back in religion,

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Speaker 1: the more religious relationships seem to mirror political practical types

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Speaker 1: of relationships than than a lot of the big religions

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Speaker 1: due today. So in a way, the deal with the devil,

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Speaker 1: I would say, is not a myth archetype that needed

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Speaker 1: to be invented out of whole cloth by Christian storytellers. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it just took an extremely ancient, extremely common way of

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Speaker 1: practicing religion and put a nefarious, infernal gloss on it. Like,

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Speaker 1: the part that remains unchanged is that there's devotee and

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Speaker 1: they ask for some kind of supernatural deliverance or aid.

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Speaker 1: But now instead of sacrificing a cow to Minerva to

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Speaker 1: get what you want, you have to pay some kind

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Speaker 1: of ultimate price, some unreasonable price, like your eternal soul

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Speaker 1: or your child or something, and you it not to

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Speaker 1: some god of a particular domain, but to the anti God,

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Speaker 1: the figure of evil incarnate. So clearly the Simpsons segment

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Speaker 1: here is drawing on the Christian tradition of the deal

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Speaker 1: with the Devil. But I would say that that is

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Speaker 1: not a an archetype that originates with Christianity. It's more

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Speaker 1: a sort of reimagining of traditional religion with a very

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Speaker 1: negative spin on it. Yeah, I mean it kind of

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Speaker 1: breaks too, of applying a satanic paint job to to

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Speaker 1: pre Christian religious traditions as well, exactly. But since this

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Speaker 1: episode is dealing with the Christian tradition of the deal

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Speaker 1: with the Devil, I also want to look at the

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Speaker 1: history of how that idea developed. So in the Christian tradition,

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Speaker 1: the oldest story of an attempted deal with the devil

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Speaker 1: that I'm aware of actually takes place in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: It's in the Gospels in the New Testament. So after

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Speaker 1: Jesus's baptism, he goes out into the wilderness to fast

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Speaker 1: for forty days and forty nights, and during that time,

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Speaker 1: the devil appears to him and offers him temptations, and

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Speaker 1: the temptations culminate in this passage in the Gospel of

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Speaker 1: Matthew that goes as fall as This is in chapter four,

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Speaker 1: Versus eight to nine. Quote again, the devil took him

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Speaker 1: up on an exceedingly high mountain and showed him all

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Speaker 1: the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he

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Speaker 1: said to him, all these things I will give you

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Speaker 1: if you will fall down and worship me. Now, of course,

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Speaker 1: Jesus refuses this temptation. He says, well, I'm only going

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Speaker 1: to worship the Lord as commanded in the scripture. But

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Speaker 1: the suggestion of the architecture is there, if he had

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Speaker 1: taken the devil up on his bargain, he would have

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Speaker 1: surrendered something extremely important. It's not made clear exactly what

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Speaker 1: that is, but he would have sort of sort of

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Speaker 1: like surrendered righteousness or surrendered godhood or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and in return he would be granted, you know, this

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Speaker 1: great earthly power. Yeah, I guess the way the way

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Speaker 1: I've I've often seen it presented. What it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: Jesus on this mission to save the world, and the

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Speaker 1: devil says, hey, but what if you didn't save the world.

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Speaker 1: What if I set you up all nice and uh,

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Speaker 1: and and fancy here, and then you could just kind

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Speaker 1: of like rule the world. That'd be pretty good too, right,

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Speaker 1: Why don't we do that? Then everybody's happy? Yes, And

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Speaker 1: so there might be a question like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: why would the devil be offering the world to Jesus,

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Speaker 1: Like wouldn't Jesus have more domain over the world anyway

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Speaker 1: that he's the ruler of the kingdom of the air though,

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Speaker 1: That's right. Yes, this gets into some interesting stuff about

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Speaker 1: apocalypticism that I want to talk about in just a minute.

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Speaker 1: Uh So to follow more about the Christian tradition of

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Speaker 1: the deal with the Devil, I was looking at an

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Speaker 1: entry in the Dictionary of Biblical Tradition and English Literature

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Speaker 1: edited by David Lyle Jeffrey, and there's a good entry

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Speaker 1: on the tradition of packs with the Devil by Camille

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Speaker 1: or Labossi are So. Regarding the temptation of Jesus in

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Speaker 1: the Wilderness, Lebassi air points out that the primary appeals

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Speaker 1: in this story are to pride, which is kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: Like in one of the temptations, Satan asks Jesus to

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Speaker 1: bow down and worship him, but in the others he

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Speaker 1: simply Jesus to make a vulgar display of his own power.

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Speaker 1: He says, Okay, you've been fasting for forty days. If

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Speaker 1: you're so hungry, why don't you turn these stones into bread.

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Speaker 1: And there's a very interesting passage in the Gospel of

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Speaker 1: Mark that that ties into the idea of deals with

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Speaker 1: the devil as well. Now, the Gospel of Mark is

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Speaker 1: the earliest of the four Gospels in the New Testament.

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Speaker 1: It probably represents the earliest stages of a lot of

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Speaker 1: these stories about jesus life. And in this story, Jesus

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Speaker 1: has been performing miracles, he's healing the sick, he's exercising demons.

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Speaker 1: He gathers the twelve Disciples to follow him, and then

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Speaker 1: in chapter three, verse twenty two, he gets a challenge

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Speaker 1: from the religious scholars. The religious scholars come up to

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Speaker 1: him and it says they came down from Jerusalem and

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Speaker 1: they said, quote, he hath beel's abub and by the

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Speaker 1: prince of devils, casteth he out devils. So they're saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I know how he's casting out devils. He's made a

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Speaker 1: deal with with like the head demon, the chief devil,

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Speaker 1: and he's using that demon power to cast out these

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Speaker 1: devils so he can win win over you peasants here. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And this is interesting because so earlier this year I

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Speaker 1: had the biblical historian Bart Erman on the podcast to

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Speaker 1: talk about where the Christian concepts of heaven and Hell

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Speaker 1: came from and how they developed over time. And if

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Speaker 1: you haven't checked that episode out, I recommended. I thought

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Speaker 1: Bart was a really fantastic guest. But one of the

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Speaker 1: historical trends that he talks about in a lot of

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Speaker 1: his work, and he discusses in that episode as well,

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Speaker 1: is the development of what's known as apocalyptic theology in

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Speaker 1: Judaism in the centuries leading up to the birth of Christianity. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's a little bit complicated, but I'll try to

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Speaker 1: do the brief simplified version, and it goes like this.

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Speaker 1: For many centuries, the Jewish prophetic tradition had attributed misfortunes

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Speaker 1: of the Jewish people to punishment for their sins. So

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Speaker 1: it would be like, oh, you were conquered by the

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Speaker 1: Babylonians and your crops were eaten by the locust. That

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Speaker 1: is because God is punishing you for your wickedness. But eventually,

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Speaker 1: over time, I'm sort of the manifest unfairness of this

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Speaker 1: theology became untenable for many Jews, like, how does it

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Speaker 1: make sense that my three year old child is being

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Speaker 1: punished for the sins of our king? And so a

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Speaker 1: new theology arose within the Jewish religion to explain suffering,

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Speaker 1: and that was that suffering was not punishment for sins,

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Speaker 1: but it was the result of the faithful children of

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Speaker 1: Israel being persecuted and victimized by forces of darkness. The

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Speaker 1: idea is that there are evil rulers and evil powers

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Speaker 1: who have made deals with the Devil, who have gone

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Speaker 1: into cooperation with a powerful evil being who is opposed

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Speaker 1: to God, and this is the Devil, and God will

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Speaker 1: eventually destroy the Devil and destroy these evil rulers who

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Speaker 1: are in league with him, and will right all wrongs.

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Speaker 1: But until then we're stuck under the boot of these

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Speaker 1: wicked temporal powers who are allied with and empowered by Satan.

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Speaker 1: It's essentially kind of a dystopian um attempt for religion, yes,

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Speaker 1: very much so, but with the idea that eventually everything

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Speaker 1: would be fixed, that ultimately God is sovereign, ultimately good

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Speaker 1: will win over evil. But now we're stuck in this

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Speaker 1: bad middle period where we're suffering under the arrangements made

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Speaker 1: with the evil forces. It's the Matrix kind of, yes,

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Speaker 1: though it would develop into even more Matrix e directions

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Speaker 1: with the advent of Gnosticism, which is one of the

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Speaker 1: most fun things if you actually go back and watch

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Speaker 1: the Matrix after learning about Gnostic theology, there are huge

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Speaker 1: overlaps there that are that are very fun to mess

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Speaker 1: around with. Yeah, I'm looking forward. I'm not sure when

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Speaker 1: will be the right time, but I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: rewatching all those films because it's been a long time

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Speaker 1: and I know they've got the Matrix four in the works. Really, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel more excited about that than I should be. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that there's a lot of room

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Speaker 1: to explore. I'm I'm interested to see what they put together.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, to come back to these ancient theological def elements.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that I think is interesting about the development

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Speaker 1: of apocalyptic theology is the idea of wicked people being

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Speaker 1: empowered by a pact with Satan or demons. That could

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Speaker 1: sort of be viewed as a logical inversion of the

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Speaker 1: belief that the Jewish people were protected by what they

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Speaker 1: called a covenant with the God of Israel. A covenant

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Speaker 1: is essentially a contract that they would worship him exclusively,

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Speaker 1: scorning all other gods, and he would protect them as

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Speaker 1: a people. But anyway, given the popularity of this type

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Speaker 1: of apocalyptic thinking around the first century CE, I think

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Speaker 1: it makes sense that the author of the Gospel might

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Speaker 1: have a story like this here, where Jesus's enemies who

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Speaker 1: don't understand him would accuse him of somehow being empowered

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Speaker 1: through a packed with demonic forces, like maybe they, in

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Speaker 1: the author's view here, misunderstand Jesus as one of these

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Speaker 1: evil princes, one of these evil powers, who has been

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Speaker 1: allied against the good people. It's almost like they're accusing

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Speaker 1: them selling out, Yes, exactly. Uh. And Labassier points out

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Speaker 1: that many early Christian Church fathers, such as Justin Martyr

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Speaker 1: and Origin, they allege that people who possess powers like divination,

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Speaker 1: so the power to acquire otherwise hidden knowledge or to

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Speaker 1: predict the future, that people who have these powers acquire

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Speaker 1: them through arrangements with the devil. Especially influential in this

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Speaker 1: respect is the writing of St. Augustine in his theological

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Speaker 1: work on Christian doctrine. He claimed that people who have

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Speaker 1: apparent magical powers, such as divination or prognostication, they gain

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Speaker 1: these powers through consultations, pacts and contracts with demons. And

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Speaker 1: there's a passage in St. Augustine that's quoted as an

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Speaker 1: authority on the subject of all through the Middle Ages

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Speaker 1: and is repeated in in canon law and the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: But in the Middle Ages it's when the stories about

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Speaker 1: these kinds of pacts get get more developed. So the

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Speaker 1: Middle Ages saw a proliferate shtion of folk tales about

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Speaker 1: pacts with the devil, especially concerning deals between the devil

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Speaker 1: and a powerful or learned man. So one example is

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Speaker 1: the story of Saint Cyprian, who Labossierre says, is a

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Speaker 1: quote megas philosophists, or you know, like a magician philosopher,

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Speaker 1: a man of great arcane learning, uh quote, who strikes

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Speaker 1: a bargain with the devil to learn the secrets of

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Speaker 1: the universe. But he he gets turned around. He responds

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Speaker 1: to the appeals of a virtuous woman uh named Justina

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Speaker 1: or Juliana, and he repents of his wicked pact, so

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Speaker 1: he gets out of it. And even more well known

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Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages is the story of the Afulus

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Speaker 1: of a Donna, and I thought this was a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. So the Awfulis was a cleric who is

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Speaker 1: said to have lived in the sixth century in Asia Minor.

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Speaker 1: This would be in uh Silicia and modern day Turkey,

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Speaker 1: so that's like the southern part of modern day Turkey.

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Speaker 1: And the story goes that Theophilist is an archdeacon of

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Speaker 1: a donna. He's like, he's a high up guy in

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Speaker 1: the church, but he's a very humble and righteous man,

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Speaker 1: and he is elected to become a new bishop in

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Speaker 1: a donna, but out of humility, he turns down the position.

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Speaker 1: He's like, oh no, no, I am not worthy. So

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Speaker 1: a different guy gets elected bishop instead. But then, in

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Speaker 1: a cruel twist of fate, the new bishop is swayed

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Speaker 1: by some false rumors about theophilists character and he kicks

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Speaker 1: the Awfulis out of his archdeaconship, and the Afulist is mad.

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Speaker 1: He does not like this, so he's like, I've been wronged.

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Speaker 1: I've got to get revenge. And in a quest for revenge,

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Speaker 1: he seeks out the aid of a sorcerer sometimes described

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Speaker 1: as a necromancer, and this guy helps the Awfulist right

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Speaker 1: out of contract with the devil in his own blood.

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Speaker 1: The devil will give the awfulst the bishopric of a Donna,

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Speaker 1: and in return, the Afulist will renounce Christ, renounce the

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Speaker 1: Virgin Mary, and hand over his soul to Satan. And

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Speaker 1: the deal goes through and he becomes the bishop. The

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Speaker 1: devil delivers his half of the bargain, but then Theophilist

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Speaker 1: gets cold feet. It's like, oh no, I really screwed up.

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Speaker 1: So he gets scared he's going to go to hell

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Speaker 1: and he ends up fasting for a couple of periods,

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Speaker 1: like a total of seventy days. He prays to the

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Speaker 1: Virgin Mary to get him out of the contract, and

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Speaker 1: at first she appears to him and just really choose

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Speaker 1: him out. She's like, you have been an extremely naughty bishop.

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Speaker 1: You are that was very bad of you to do.

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Speaker 1: But eventually she relents and she grants him absolution. So

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Speaker 1: you think everything solved now, but the devil does not

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Speaker 1: give up. The next morning, Theophilist wakes up with the

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Speaker 1: contract that he had written in his blood lying on

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Speaker 1: his chest, and I guess that's a sign that the

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Speaker 1: devil is still trying to hold him to account. So

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Speaker 1: next what the apulist does is inspired by the Virgin Mary.

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Speaker 1: He takes the contract to the bishop who had originally

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Speaker 1: removed him from the archdeaconship, and he confesses everything, and

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Speaker 1: the bishop burns the contract, which frees the awful list

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Speaker 1: of soul from this infernal bargain. And the awfullest is

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Speaker 1: so relieved to have his soul back that he dies

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Speaker 1: of joy on the spot. And I think this story

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Speaker 1: brings up a couple of features that will appear again

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Speaker 1: and again in stories about deals with the devil. I

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Speaker 1: think it's very interesting that you see these features repeated

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Speaker 1: so often. One is that you can get out of

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Speaker 1: a deal with the devil. You make the deal, you

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Speaker 1: get what you want, but then upon repenting, you can

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Speaker 1: sort of avoid the contract, so to speak. And then

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Speaker 1: the second feature that appears again and again is that,

427
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: uh is that you can you can get out of

428
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: it with the intercession or intervention of a virtuous woman.

429
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: What I love about this is that you know, though

430
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: though fantastic and supernatural and its elements, it's basically a

431
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: critique of short term versus long term thinking. You know,

432
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: because it's it's often about like somebody like in this case,

433
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: and I want revenge now, I'm not going to think

434
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: about what happens later with my eternal soul. But but

435
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: also just like my life past the point of getting

436
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: my vengeance. Uh. And likewise with Homer, like he's not

437
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: thinking about the long term, he's thinking about that immediate reward.

438
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: He's he's failing the ultimate Marshmallow test. You know, yeah, exactly.

439
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking about those exact themes. It's the it's

440
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: the prioritization of the temporal. And in a way, there's

441
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: this idea that people, uh make decisions without thinking them through.

442
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: They make the decision on the basis of their appetites

443
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: or their lusts or their emotions. Uh, and then once

444
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: they have time to think about it, they repent of

445
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: the decision they have made. And often, weirdly enough, I mean,

446
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: this doesn't happen in every case. Like we'll get to

447
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: Dr Faustus in a bit, and then Marlow's Dr Faustus.

448
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: He does not get out of the deal, he just

449
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: gets claimed by the devil. But in a lot of

450
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: these deals, eventually, once you think it through and you say,

451
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: oh no, I really screwed up. Somebody good. Usually a

452
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: virtuous and clever woman will intervene on your behalf and

453
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: you'll get out of it. I mean to a certain extent.

454
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: We see that in Dante's Inferno, right, I mean, Beatrice

455
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: is is kind of this this guiding light that is

456
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: that is there to to sort of pull like a

457
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: tractor beam, to pull Dante up through Inferno and uh

458
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: and Purgatory up towards his paradise. It's very interesting than

459
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: in a lot of these stories, the character who makes

460
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: the deal with the devil is tempted by pride. And

461
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: in the Divine Comedy it's made explicit that Dante's main

462
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: sin is pride. That's the sin that he really has

463
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: to be absolved of when he goes through purgatory, and

464
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: it's the main sin that Beatrice is helping purge him of. Yeah,

465
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite things about the Divine

466
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: Comedy actually is all the passages where he's like, having

467
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: been cleansed of the sin of pride. I will now

468
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: go back to Earth having written the greatest poem of

469
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: all time, and will copens everybody that they should do

470
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: you know, that they should follow the path of righteousness,

471
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: because I've written the best poem ever written, right, I

472
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: mean he did, he did really write his finger there,

473
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean, but but but yes, I don't think. I

474
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: don't know if you can make a strong case for

475
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: the pride being completely purge from Dante. But anyway, So

476
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: from here, Labassier goes on to mention a number of

477
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: other stories and pacts with the devil that were popular

478
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance. For example,

479
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: the Anglo Norman poem, which is apparently satirical, that takes

480
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 1: the form of a full legal document resigning the soul

481
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: of the signatory to the devil in exchange for the

482
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: freedom to live in hedonic pleasure, hoarding wealth and exploiting

483
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: the poor. And I gotta say, is a brief like

484
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: moralistic theological note, one thing I can sometimes appre I mean,

485
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: obviously there are extreme limitations to the insights of medieval

486
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: moral philosophy. But one thing I appreciate, going back and

487
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: reading a lot of these rebukes of immorality from the

488
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: Middle Ages, is one thing that a thing that gets

489
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: singled out again and again is abusing the poor. Now

490
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: there are more kinds of packs with the devil. In

491
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: chauce Er in the Friar's Tale, in the canon Yeoman's Tale. Uh,

492
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: there's this idea that people who seek pacts with the

493
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: devil are often lusting after wealth or especially secret knowledge.

494
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: The ultimate secrets of alchemy seem to be a real

495
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: draw for people to get into these uh, these bad

496
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: deals like to chase after the philosopher's stone is to

497
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: make an enemy of God. And these themes really come

498
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: through in the Renaissance in perhaps the most famous literary

499
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: character who makes a deal with the devil who which

500
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: is Dr Faustus. We've talked about the faust legend on

501
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: the show before. This is a story with many lives,

502
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: many new sets of clothes over the ages, so we

503
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: won't rehash all of that here, but it is yet

504
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: another tale of a person who seeks great power and

505
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: knowledge and then uh kind of squanders it and uh

506
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: and and of course seeks it through a deal with

507
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: the devil and is ultimately claimed. There is a fair

508
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: amount of lust in there too. Yes. Lobossi Are also

509
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: points out an interesting parallel that I might not have

510
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: thought of otherwise. But it's Shakespeare's The Murder Shin of

511
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: Venice between Antonio and Shylock, and because of the anti

512
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: Semitic assumptions of the play, the Jewish money lender Shylock

513
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: has portrayed very much as a devil figure toying with

514
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: Antonio's fate uh and is. As is so often the

515
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: case in these tales, Antonio is saved by the intercession

516
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: of a virtuous woman, Portia, who wins his case by

517
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: finding a technical loophole in the wording of the contract,

518
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: much like Marge does in The Devil and Homer Simpson.

519
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: As for the title of the Simpsons, segment is of

520
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: course adapted from the title of the short story by

521
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: Stephen Vincent Benet, The Devil and Daniel Webster, in which

522
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: a New England farmer sells his soul to the Devil,

523
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: then hires the famous lawyer and orator Daniel Webster to

524
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: represent him in a trial to get it back, and

525
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: Webster's speech to the jury of the damned souls is

526
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: so eloquent that they find for the defendant, even though

527
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: there's no evidence on his behalf, which is pretty good.

528
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: You know. As much as we love courtroom dramas in

529
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: and especially in this country, and as much as we

530
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: love um, you know, the horrifying and the satanic? Why

531
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: have we not? Maybe we have and I'm not aware

532
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: of it. We need a law and Order, um Infernal Unit,

533
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: or you know, we need Daniel Webster lawn Order mash

534
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: up where not just like one episode, but every episode

535
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: deals with some sort of satanic bargain. I mean, I'm

536
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 1: half joking, but I also now that I'm thinking about it, like,

537
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: I think this has legs. I think this could be

538
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: a series. I'd watch it The Perry Mason of the Afterlife. Yeah,

539
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: what's your favorite courtroom drama? Do you have one? Are you?

540
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: And my cousin Vinny Guy? I mean no, I mean,

541
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: I mean, what are some of the great I mean

542
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: you have to go with like to Kill a Mockingbird?

543
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: Right or something like that. Um. Yeah, I'm trying to

544
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: think of anything. I don't know. I don't know a

545
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff in between. Like I feel like

546
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: it for for me to get into a courtroom drama,

547
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: it needs to be it needs to be really good.

548
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: Or yeah, I can't. I can't think of one that's

549
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: amusingly crappy. Yeah, maybe a Few good Men. Like a

550
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: Few good Men is like entertaining but extremely hokey. Yeah,

551
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: I mean it does have that classic moment that's been

552
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: a Leaftland lampoon so many times. Um, yeah, I don't

553
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: know my favorite really, Seriously, my favorite courtroom scenes are

554
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: all from episodes of The Simpsons or Futurama. Yeah, alright,

555
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back.

556
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: Thank thank Alright, we're back. You know, I was thinking

557
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: there's another type of picture of a deal with the devil,

558
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: which is the idea of deal with the devil as compliment,

559
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: like the idea that an artist or a musician or

560
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: somebody is so talented, uh, that their their genius or

561
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: their talent must have come from a deal with the devil,

562
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: Like this was said of the great Delta Blues musician

563
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: Robert Johnson. But of course it was something that actual

564
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: like the Romantic poets often said about themselves. The English

565
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: Romantic poets Blake and Shelley characterized as literary genius and

566
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: poetic energy as a diabolical pact. Yeah. This is interesting too,

567
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: because I think it is reflected in a lot of

568
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: celebrity worship culture today. But it's perhaps a way on

569
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: one level, like a way of trying to make sense

570
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: of of extreme success, you know, you sort of have

571
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: to tell yourself, well, yeah, they're highly successful at what

572
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,719
Speaker 1: they do and or they're highly talented, but at what cost?

573
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: And and you can sort of comfort yourself by saying,

574
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: I didn't pay that cost. I may not have a

575
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: number one album out there, but I also didn't sell

576
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: my soul to the devil. Uh, And you can feel

577
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: a little better about it. And then it's also sort

578
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: of in a way, it's kind of a twisted version

579
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: of instead of saying, well, you know, um, you know

580
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: this this celebrity that deep down there a person too,

581
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: and they're full of insecurities like I am. You know,

582
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: they're they're concerned about the future, etcetera. Instead of humanizing you,

583
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: you kind of go in a different direction and say, well, yes,

584
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: but they're going to hell because they made a soul

585
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: a soul ex change with the devil. Like I don't know,

586
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: I think it's very weird, very twisted up. No, I

587
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: think that's really good. I think you're exactly right. In

588
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: the same way that it feels good to watch a

589
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: really rich person be miserable, uh, at least feels good

590
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: to think about somebody who has talents and successes that

591
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: you're jealous of. You're like, well, they must yeah, they

592
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: must have done something bad to get that. Yeah, they

593
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: lost something in the bargain. I guess it does. It doesn't.

594
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: You can certainly compare it to some of the stats

595
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: about say, lottery winners. Right where a sentence, there's there's

596
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: a strong argument to say that that is a deal

597
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: made with the devil. You get this enormous uh you know, reward,

598
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: this this enormous cash prize, but statistically it brings a

599
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: lot of chaos into your life. Is that true? Though?

600
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: I've heard people say that, But I think I feel

601
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: like I've looked into that before and it turns out

602
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: that might not be as true as is sometimes alleged.

603
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: It certainly would make us feel better for it to

604
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: be true. Yeah, that's the thing. It needs to be

605
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: true for the ingest this of the universe to make sense. Um.

606
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: But then again with the lottery thing, for example, I mean,

607
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: I think one of the great things about that is

608
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: we're always each and every one of us, you know,

609
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: we're the first ones to say to ourselves, well, you know,

610
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: if you win the lottery's gonna bring a lot of

611
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: casts in your life. But I think I can handle it.

612
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: You know, we always think we're the exception. It's kind

613
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: of like, man, I can't any time I want, Yeah,

614
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: like making a deal with the devil or picking up

615
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: a monkey's paw. That's bad news. But I think I

616
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: might be able to make it work. I think I could.

617
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: I could. I could word my demand in just the

618
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: right way that the Devil's going to be totally cool

619
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: with it. I wouldn't eat the hole doughnut. I would

620
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: leave that last bite and not forget about it. Yeah.

621
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: Or I would know how to phrase the monkeys Paul

622
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: questions so that it didn't come back on me. Yeah. Well,

623
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: you know, going back to the Simpsons episode with the

624
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: monkeys paw, you know, you have that that wonderful segment

625
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: where Maggie gets ahold of it and and I think

626
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: is the only person who uses it, and it's in

627
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: a way it's like she's a child. So she makes

628
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: a purer wish, you know, for just a new pacifier,

629
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: which is immediately brought to her, and it doesn't seem

630
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: like there's any kind of come up in so there

631
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: any dark uh, you know, darker ramifications that come from

632
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: having made that wish of the poll, unlike all the

633
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: other monkey pot wishes. Well, I think it's interesting that

634
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: in the Monkeys Pall it is a technical reading of

635
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: the words of the wish that come back to bite you.

636
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: But in many of these stories about the deal with

637
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: the devil, such as in the Devil in Homer Simpson,

638
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: it is a technical reading of the language of the

639
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: agreement that actually gets you out of trouble, you know,

640
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: trading on a loophole to escape punishment. They seem to

641
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: come from the anxieties of like a literate and legalistic culture. Yeah,

642
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: the idea of the law itself as this domain with

643
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: enough ambiguity in it that a skilled lawyer or sorcerer,

644
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: you know, they're basically the same thing. Depending on how

645
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: you look at it, we'll be able to pry you

646
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: out of it. Arcane books containing formulations of language that

647
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: have the power to make things happen in the world

648
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: that you can't understand that the lawyer is very much

649
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: a sorcerer. Now, I wanted to talk about the psychology

650
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: of selling your soul, and I was trying to find

651
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: some good psychology studies about people selling their souls. I

652
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: didn't really turn up a lot that are directly on target,

653
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: but some that uh, some that are sort of on

654
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: point but not as robust as I had hoped, and

655
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: then other things that sort of glance off of it

656
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: in interesting ways. So the first thing I found was

657
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: an anecdote in a twelve book called The Righteous Mind

658
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: by the American social psychologist Jonathan Height. And this book

659
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: is about the psychological foundations of moral values and how

660
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: these values feed into big systems like social groups and

661
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: politics and stuff. And the story in the book about

662
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: selling souls comes up in the middle of a passage

663
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: about a phenomenon that Height calls moral dumbfounding. And this

664
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: is something that you've probably encountered before. You've seen other

665
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: people do it, you've done it yourself. It's where somebody

666
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 1: makes a very strong moral judgment about something you say

667
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: you know that's just wrong, and then if you are

668
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: asked to explain why it's wrong, you get the mental

669
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: blue screen of death. You just search around, frustrated for

670
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: an explanation, a reason behind your moral pronouncement. Maybe you'll

671
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: end up saying something but it doesn't make a lot

672
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: of sense, or you just can't think of anything at all,

673
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: and yet you remain convinced of your original opinion. From

674
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: another context, it's phrased as a dogmatic insistence on a

675
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: moral judgment for which no good reasons can be given,

676
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: and so example. There are all kinds of examples of

677
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: this that are offered, a lot of them are read

678
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: to people as very distasteful for obvious reasons. One is,

679
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: would it be wrong to dip a sterilized cockroach into

680
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: somebody's drink? So if I if I just got a cockroach,

681
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: I put it through an autoclave, so I know it's

682
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: absolutely sterile, could not possibly make you sick? Would it

683
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: be wrong for me to dip that cock roach in

684
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: a glass of water and then give you the glass

685
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: of water to drink and not tell you, Yes, that

686
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: would be wrong. I feel like that would be wrong too,

687
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: But it's hard to explain, a like, to come up

688
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: with an explanation for the reason that would be wrong.

689
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: It's like, well, it can't possibly hurt them, but it

690
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: just feels really wrong. It feels like a betrayal. Yeah,

691
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: it is, I see what you're you're getting. It is

692
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: tricky to try and like make an argument like you

693
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: end up having to sort of go further out on

694
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: a ledge than you think you're going to. You know,

695
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 1: you have to say things like, well if you would

696
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: do that, like what else are you doing to my drink?

697
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: What what you know? What else? Does what else do

698
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: to say about our relationship that you would do this?

699
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: And I'm not necessarily saying that you couldn't give a

700
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: good reason, but it's like for a lot of people

701
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: would be difficult to express one. And I want to

702
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: come back to the difference there in a bit um.

703
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it would be a health code violation, yes, regardless,

704
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: Well I don't know if it would it be if

705
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: it was sterilized. It seems like you need special language

706
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: in the health code to address I have. Maybe we'll

707
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: hear from health inspectors out there who listen to the show,

708
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: But I'm guessing you can't get by by sterilizing your

709
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: cockroaches before exposing them. I mean, but then again, I

710
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, as we get more into the

711
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, the consumption of insects. Are there are there

712
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: food grade cockroaches you could use? I don't know, But

713
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: how would that be any different than just being sterilized like.

714
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: It seems like the implication at least is that questions

715
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: like this play on just sort of like ick based

716
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: intuitions we have about what's acceptable and what's not that

717
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 1: we find hard to give justifications for based on things

718
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: like utilitarian concerns about harm. Instead, it's just these things

719
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 1: about like that just feels wrong. I guess I'm gonna

720
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: come back and say I would be okay with you

721
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: doing this thing with the cockroach, provided it was it

722
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: was like a food grade cockroach, which I don't think

723
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: actually exists that even if we're another food grade insect

724
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: then possibly, But then again, I don't think it's a

725
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: vegetarian drink anymore if you've put a dead bugging and

726
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: intentionally all very good concerns. Uh yeah. So so I

727
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: want to explain my thinking about this in a bit,

728
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: but at first I just want to talk about the experiments.

729
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: So Height in this section is discussing evidence that our

730
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: moral decisions are generally not actually rational. So he's sort

731
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: of making the case that when we have when we

732
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: make moral judgments, most of the time, we're not reasoning

733
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: to arrive at them. Instead, they're deontological intuitions we just

734
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 1: feel our moral decisions first, and then afterwards we use

735
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: our rational minds to kind of come up with post

736
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: talk justifications for why we felt the way we did.

737
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 1: And so some evidence of this he discusses would include

738
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 1: the claim that adding cognitive load does not change people's

739
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: moral judgments. So if you give people mental work to

740
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: do while they're making moral judgments, their moral judgments don't

741
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: appear to change. Or giving giving people more time to

742
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: think about their answers to moral questions doesn't really seem

743
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: to change them. And in the example of selling souls,

744
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: Height is talking about a scenario where a graduate student

745
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: of his was was offering students two dollars if they

746
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: would sign a piece of paper that said I hereby

747
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: sell my soul after my death for the sum of

748
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: two dollars. And then there was also fine print that

749
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: said this form is part of a psychology experiment. It

750
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: is not a legal document and not binding in any way.

751
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: And the students were told that if they signed the document,

752
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: they were free to rip it up and consider it

753
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: void the moment after they signed it, and they would

754
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: still get their two dollars, and majorities of students refused,

755
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: even many students who explicitly said they were atheists and

756
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: didn't believe in souls, they still didn't want to do it.

757
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: And so the point here is that there's something about

758
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 1: there's something that we're using to make decisions apart from

759
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: just reasoning about who it would harm. At least that's

760
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: the case they're making. Two dollars does seem like low bowing,

761
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: like even in the like, even even into this scenario,

762
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: I think I would I would turn it down. I

763
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: think I would too. You just I mean, part of

764
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: it's probably you know, growing up attending you know, a

765
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: church where you're with the reality of of of demons

766
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 1: is kind of part of the background, and then being

767
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: and then absorbing all of this, uh uh, that this

768
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,479
Speaker 1: fantasy as well, probably even seeing tree House of Horror

769
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: as a kid, you know, uh, you end up having

770
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: all this in your background, and it kind of creates

771
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: a sense of wrongness to engage in this, or at

772
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: least there's a risk factor there that should not be

773
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: trifled with for a mere two dollars. Well that's so

774
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: on one hand, yeah, you could argue, well, maybe this

775
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: is just some sort of deontological hangover from from previous

776
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: beliefs you would have. But to come back on things,

777
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: I think there are arguments against the post talk rationalization

778
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: theory of moral dumbfounding, Like the fact that somebody can't

779
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: artic kullate good reasons why something should be wrong doesn't

780
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that there are not in fact good reasons.

781
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: It's possible that a lot of our moral reasoning might

782
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: actually be reasoning and not just deontic dogma, but it's

783
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: reasoning on a subconscious level that we find hard to

784
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: put into words. There are all kinds of things that

785
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: people do for good reasons that you could explain in theory,

786
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: but people can't figure out the right way to put

787
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: it into words. So one example of this would be

788
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: on utilitarian grounds, why can't a hospital just say, like,

789
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: murder one innocent patient who's there for a yearly physical

790
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: and then harvest their healthy organs to save the lives of, like,

791
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, ten other people who urgently need organ transplants.

792
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: I feel like if you think that that kind of

793
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: statement is a defeater for utilitarian reasoning, uh that that

794
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: represents a sort of shallow interpretation of utilitarianism. Like imagine

795
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: if something like that were to actually happen. The con

796
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: sequences of it would be that it would totally undermine

797
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: the stability of the society and of medicine in a

798
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: way that would make everyone paranoid and unable to trust

799
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: doctors or feel safe. So it's like, the consequences of

800
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: something like that actually happening in reality would be hugely

801
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: destructive in a utilitarian sense, even though in the moment

802
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: you have saved a number of lives. And so I

803
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: think there could be similar things going on with these

804
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: examples about like say, a contract to get two dollars

805
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: for selling your soul. I feel like I have a

806
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: kind of idiosyncratic view on this, probably with regards to

807
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: selling souls, because I would say, you know, personally, I'm

808
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: kind of a provisional materialist, like I believe that the

809
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: mind is dependent on the functioning of the physical brain.

810
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: I don't see any evidence for the existence of an

811
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: immaterial soul or mind that exists without the body. And

812
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: yet at the same time, I think the soul is

813
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: kind of a meaningful and even indispensable concept, and I

814
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: think it really means something to sell your soul, not

815
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: in a supernatural sense, but in the sense that there

816
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: are things we can do that represent a surrender of

817
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: rights and claims to the deepest part of our own integrity.

818
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: And in English, the word soul still captures that thing,

819
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: that deep part of our integrity, probably better than any

820
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: other word does, even though it does come with a

821
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: lot of supernatural baggage. And thus I think signing a

822
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: piece of paper in agreement to sell your soul could

823
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: be a thing you would want to resist doing, even

824
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: though you don't believe in a supernatural soul. Like on

825
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: the physicalist or naturalist view of the world, the brain

826
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: operates strongly on the basis of habit, and doing something

827
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: one time always prepares you to do a similar thing

828
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: more easily in the future. And so I think I

829
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: would worry that selling my soul, even in a purely

830
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: symbolic sense, would kind of wound myself image in a

831
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: way that would perhaps make me less protective of my

832
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: integrity in the future. I feel like to come back

833
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 1: to anchoring. It's also insulting to to offer two dollars

834
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: for someone's soul, because and then you're gonna turn him down,

835
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: like you've already established that that is where you're going

836
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: to begin the bidding. Yes, so even even if I

837
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: come back and and I'm gonna gonna say something like, well,

838
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: at least not for me a hundred dollars, like that

839
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: doesn't say I still probably wouldn't do it for a

840
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. But but now I'm already thinking about it.

841
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: Because he started at two dollars. I think you were

842
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: actually very much onto something about that number. There. There

843
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: there's a way in which the two dollars makes it

844
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: even worse, because again, even if you don't believe in

845
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: any sort of supernatural immaterial soul, the deal would represent

846
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: a kind of symbolic low ball valuing of yourself. You're

847
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: just saying like, I'm not worth very much, and that

848
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: hurts you to say, even in a symbolic way where

849
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: you can tear up the contract afterwards. Then to come

850
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: back on the other side, though, I did find a

851
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: study that seemed, at least at least on its surface value,

852
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: to sort of line up with the idea of of

853
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: valuing souls and things like that at a at a

854
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,240
Speaker 1: dog matter or deontological level rather than a moral reasoning lele.

855
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: And this was an fMRI I cognition study, which, of

856
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: course we've learned to always be somewhat careful about not

857
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: rely too much on just one or two studies like

858
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: this about a subject, but look for some corroboration. But

859
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 1: this study was in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society

860
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: b Biological Sciences in twelve by Gregory S. Burns, Emily Bell, C.

861
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: Monica Capra, Michael J. Preetula, Sarah Moore, Brittany Anderson, Jeremy

862
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: gin j Son Scott A trend and the short version

863
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: of this is that the the authors of the study

864
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 1: put people in f MRI machines and then offered them

865
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: sums of money that would actually be paid out, so

866
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: people would get real money in exchange for symbolically making

867
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: statements that were about sort of sacred type values, deeply

868
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: held personal values, but making statements that disagreed with their

869
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: actual positions. And people were very resistant to doing this

870
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: in some cases for understandable reasons. I think a lot

871
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: of them along the lines of things we've just been

872
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: talking about. And they found that quote. Using fMRI I

873
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: we found that values that people refuse to sell sacred

874
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: values were associated with increased activity in the left tempo

875
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: parietal junction in ventrolateral prefrontal cortex regions previously associated with

876
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: semantic rule retrieval. This suggests that sacred values affect behavior

877
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: through retrieval and processing of deontic rules, and not through

878
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: utilitarian evaluation of costs and benefits. So I think this finding,

879
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: to the extent that is valid, would tend to line

880
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: up more with the idea that when ideas about a

881
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: sacred substance are concerned the idea of like surrendering something

882
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: that is a deeply held value to yourself, you're more

883
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: likely to just use the part of your brain where

884
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: you intuitively automatically check the rules in your knowledge, versus

885
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: the part of your brain that you use to sort

886
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: of think through the pros and cons of things. But anyway,

887
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: I guess to wrap up this section, would you sell

888
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: your soul for a donut? Know? What would you sell

889
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 1: your soul for? What kind of pastry would it have

890
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: to be? It has to be a pastry? I mean,

891
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: what about a really good queen of mom? I mean,

892
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: I mean, if if my my souls being sold either way,

893
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: like it's a must sell situation and I have to

894
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 1: pick a pastry, I mean I'm gonna go with something big,

895
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna go with like a big moon cake. Um,

896
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: one that's about the size of a like a dinner

897
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: table or something, you know, some sort of record setting pastry.

898
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: Oh what about one of those like Guinness book parking

899
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: lot sized pizzas? How about that? Now? Nothing that big

900
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: any anytime there's a food that that looks like you

901
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: had to use like shovels or and or buckets to

902
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: bake it or prepare it, I'm just I'm not really

903
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: fill you with confidence. Yeah, it needs the food needs

904
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: to have been made with actual culinary instruments and tools

905
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: and not things from the hardware store. Now is that

906
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: a conclusion that you reasoned your way to or is

907
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: that a deontological judgment? It's the ladder, but I'd agree

908
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: with you. I think it's based on watching videos of

909
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: the of some of these records setting baking or cooking projects,

910
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: you know, really dirty. Yeah, get being turned off by

911
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: the idea of somebody using something that even if it's

912
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: pristine and it's been sterilized, like you're not supposed to

913
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: use a shovel to stir a chili, you know that

914
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: sort of thing. This is really funny. This comes exactly

915
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: back to the cockroach thing. So would you dip a

916
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: sterilized cockroach in your apple juice and drink it? You know, No,

917
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: you'd feel like that's ikey somehow, even though it's sterilized.

918
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: I've worked in restaurants before, and there are moments in

919
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: a restaurant because you have to create huge portions of

920
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: things that you'll be mixing up a sauce or a

921
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: soup or something in buckets or even in a garbage

922
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: can or something like that, and it's just like, no, no,

923
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: you can't feed that to people. It is clean, they

924
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: clean it, but it just doesn't seem right. I agree,

925
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: I would. I would prefer not to know about that

926
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: with my my my favorite restaurants. Don't go in the kitchen.

927
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: Then all right, we're gonna take a quick break, but

928
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: we'll be right back and we're all right. Well that

929
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: that selection was definitely infernal, but I think in in

930
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: a in a in a way, our next selection is

931
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: also pretty infernal. So uh, you know, generally, speaking with

932
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: with horror anthology films, you have kind of a smartist

933
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: board of horror that's presented. In some cases the filmmakers

934
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: clearly just cobbled together some some short horror films with

935
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: a shaky framing narrative or a creepy host. Otherwise, the

936
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: theme might be the author themselves. Uh, you know, it

937
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: might be okay, these are three stories from Stephen King,

938
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: or these are three stories from Richard Matheson. Other times,

939
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: it's more of a cultural or regional themes, such as

940
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: say the film Three Extremes, which features East Asian horror tales.

941
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: And then there is the Uncanny, from which is I

942
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: feel like it's pretty singular. I think it might be

943
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: one of a kind because it is. It's certainly unlike

944
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: any other horror anthology film that I've watched or I

945
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: am aware of, because the framing narrative and all three

946
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: segments are devoted entirely to murderous house cats. It's true,

947
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: and and I've watched the whole thing. Yeah, it is

948
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: eighty eight minutes of feline cinematic terror. It's wall to

949
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 1: wall cat sounds, cat based jump scares, creepy music combined

950
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: with cat close ups, and some otherwise very talented actors

951
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: reacting to cat to cats scares, and of course cats

952
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: jumping out and slashing them to Jesus out of people.

953
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: A lot of times with real cats that are clear.

954
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of cats in this film,

955
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: probably more cats in scenes in this film than I've

956
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 1: ever seen, uh in a movie before. Though I would

957
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: say also lots of cats in close up. And I

958
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: think these close ups were filmed separately than the rest

959
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: of the movies, So they just got lots of close

960
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: ups of cats meowing, hissing, swatting at things, and then

961
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: cut those in with the drama that was going on,

962
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: which did still involve some cats, which I'm sure was

963
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: a nightmare. Yeah, this is this production was clearly a nightmare. Um.

964
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: The result is is I will say it's it's very watchable.

965
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: It's a film in the tradition of the the Amicist productions.

966
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 1: It has Peter Cushing in, it has Donald Pleasant some

967
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: other actors of note. Um, it's it's very well made. UM.

968
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: And I it's it's interesting. I'd forgotten about this film

969
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: and then I when I was researching it and kind

970
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 1: of rediscovered it, I realized that I had in fact

971
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: seen the first segment, and the first segment is the

972
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: one that I rewatched for this episode. I think I

973
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: caught it on A and E back when I was

974
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: a kid, or when I was in junior high and

975
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: I remember being creeped out at the time, and it

976
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: it is still effectively creepy. It is a it is

977
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 1: essentially an animals attack film. Yes, but with cats. It's

978
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: Jaws with cats. Yeah, it's the birds but instead cats. Oh,

979
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: the birds is a better comparison because there's not just

980
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: one cat. There are many many cats. By the way,

981
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: this came out in ninety seven. Again, uh, that is

982
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: the same year that Stephen King published a short story

983
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: about a killer cat, The Cat from Hell. Uh, came

984
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: out in the magazine Cavalier, and this would later be

985
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: adapted into the in the excellent horror anthology film Tales

986
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: from the Dark Side the Movie with Buster Point Exter

987
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: and William Hickey. Um, it's it's terrible, but but good.

988
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: I really want to spoil the ending of that segment,

989
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: but I won't. Yeah, it's a it's pretty it's pretty great.

990
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: Uh you know. Actually, Tales on the Dark Side of

991
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: the Movie is definitely worth checking out. Not so much

992
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: for this for for this one for the Cat from Hell,

993
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: but it has a wonderful gargoyle story that I think

994
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: I've mentioned before that is essentially a retelling of a

995
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,479
Speaker 1: of a Japanese ghost story about the frost made. Yes,

996
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: the first segment I believe is the Mummy one that's

997
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: just star studded. It's got lots of one's well known

998
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,959
Speaker 1: actors and it doesn't have like Christian Slater and Steve

999
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: Bushimmy and people. Christian Slater's definitely in it. Yeah, that

1000
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 1: that Mummy tale, very loosely based on Sir Arthur Conan

1001
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: Doyle's work is is pretty terrific in that I find

1002
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 1: that it would be one of the few, certainly, yeah,

1003
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: really one of the few Mummy tales where they do

1004
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: a good job of making the Mummy scary. Uh As

1005
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: I recall, like the Mummy at one point, like Star

1006
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: it stalks up on somebody and removes their brain through

1007
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: their nostril with like a coat hanger um, which I

1008
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: thought was a nice touch, you know, alluding to it

1009
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: to the practices of mummification that the ancient Egyptians employed. Yeah,

1010
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 1: one of my other favorite Mummy movies actually is the

1011
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: one that I've got the poster of right next to

1012
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: me right now. Lamelodicion de feron the nineteen British Mummy

1013
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 1: if it I think it's hammer. If it's not hammer,

1014
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 1: it's very hammer adjacent. Via the cast. It's got Peter Cushing,

1015
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: it's got Christopher Lee, it's it's it's fantastic, all right. Well,

1016
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: speaking of Peter Cushing, let me let me go and

1017
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: roll out there. The framing narrative for the uncanny Peter Cushing,

1018
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: who again it always a class act, always elevates anything

1019
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: he's part of. In this he plays a nervous author

1020
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 1: named Wilburg Ray who has a new manuscript about cats,

1021
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: about how they're actually evil supernatural creatures. They're the devil

1022
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: in disguise. They're out to get us and cooshing places

1023
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: very well, convincingly, coming off as extremely jumpy and sleep

1024
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: deprived due to the lingering threat of feline assassination. It

1025
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: has all the he has all the air and seriousness

1026
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: of a character in a spy movie, you know who's

1027
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 1: like a defect or pursued by shadowy figures through the streets,

1028
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: though in instead of being like weird looking agents and

1029
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: trench coats, it's cats. It's stray cats and house cats

1030
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: that are that are stalking him at every turn. It's

1031
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: what are the thirty nine steps and they're they're all cats. Yeah,

1032
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: but uh, I will say this movie makes one grievous

1033
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: error with respect to Peter Cushing, which is that he

1034
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: has a scraggly beard in it. And Peter Cushing should

1035
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: always be clean shaven. He does not need facial Having

1036
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 1: facial hair on Peter Cushing is like having Michael Myer's

1037
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 1: wheeled and knife. But it's in a sheath, is just

1038
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't really capture what you're using Peter

1039
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: Cushing for. Yeah, So those face angles, they should be naked.

1040
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: So that's the basic setup. He comes he comes to

1041
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: his publisher's house apartment to talk about this this manuscript,

1042
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: and of course the publisher has a cat which is

1043
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: creeping at him out even more, and he proceeds to

1044
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 1: talk about three different cases that are discussed in his book.

1045
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: Each one is a segment about murderous cats. Um. The

1046
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: only one that I rewatched for this episode is the

1047
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 1: first one, which is terrific. It takes place in London

1048
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: in nineve and in this one, we have a wealthy

1049
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 1: old woman who decides to leave her a state to

1050
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: her mini pet cats, who are sadly mistreated by the

1051
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: maid turns out the maid is in league with the

1052
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: old woman's nephew, who's uh, he's kind of a scoundrel

1053
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 1: and you know, squandering his money. He's he's he's a

1054
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: bad dude, and he was set to inherit everything before

1055
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 1: this new will was put in place. Well, the maid

1056
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 1: catches wind of this new plan. She hears the old

1057
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: woman talking to her attorney about it, so she tells

1058
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: the nephew, and the nephew tasks her then with stealing

1059
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: the new will because it's it's assumed that the old

1060
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: lady is not going to live that long and we

1061
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: can just get this new will out of the picture.

1062
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: Then you know, the nephew will get all the money,

1063
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: everything will be fine, and they'll like run off into

1064
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: the sunset together. Right, So what does she do? She

1065
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: decides to steal the will. So what she does is

1066
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,959
Speaker 1: she sneaks into the old woman's room at night, goes

1067
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: to the safe, opens it up, gets the will out.

1068
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: But then the old woman awakens, uh and so, and

1069
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: surrounded by her many cats, accuses the maid. Well, the

1070
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: maid says, well, I've got to go with plan B now,

1071
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: and she smothers the old woman there in front of

1072
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: her many cats. And the cats are immediately upset, you know,

1073
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: they realize, whoa, we've overstepped your boundaries, you've killed this

1074
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: old woman. And when the maid goes to pick up

1075
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: the last will and testament on the floor, a cat,

1076
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: a cat pop comes out and scratches her hand, and

1077
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: she shrieks and draws back and she's bleeding at the hand.

1078
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: She reaches out for it again. Cats wipes her hand

1079
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: again and and and it's great because it's clearly like

1080
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: a like a puppet of a cat's hand scratching her

1081
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: um uh cats pomp uh and uh. And from there

1082
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: it just becomes a full blown assault. You know, cats

1083
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: are leaping out at her, they're they're they're they're assaulting,

1084
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: or they're they're chasing her around the house. She ends

1085
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: up barricading herself in the larder and for some reason,

1086
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: like she's in there long enough that she's forced to

1087
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: eat what I what I think is supposed to be

1088
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: cat food on bread in order to survive. There just

1089
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: jars and jars of these earthenware jars of wet cat

1090
00:58:54,240 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: food covered with like cloth and twine. Yeah. Wait, just

1091
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. Because like, why are you spreading that on

1092
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: the biscuit. Just eat the biscuits if you're starving because

1093
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 1: you're barricaded in her room by cats, Like, just eat

1094
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: all the biscuits up first, and then you can think

1095
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: of like she's she's playing a weird long game of

1096
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: forcing herself to eat cat food. Yeah, there's a bread box.

1097
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: She like gets out the bread box, and it's funny

1098
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: because when she gets it out, you think she's gonna

1099
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: do something with the bread box, like climb up on

1100
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: it to get out the window or something. But no,

1101
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: she just gets bread out and then and then spreads

1102
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: cat food on it. Now, so she hangs out in

1103
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: there for a while, presumably like days, I don't know. Finally,

1104
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: she's listening at the door. Seems like things have calmed down,

1105
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: so she creeps out with a knife, goes back up

1106
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: the stairs and tries once more to grab the will,

1107
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: but the cats disarmor. She runs away. I think she

1108
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: falls down the stairs. Uh, But before she does, she

1109
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: sees that the cats have of course begun to eat

1110
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: the old woman who is dead in the bed. Finally,

1111
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: the police break down the door. The lawyer and the

1112
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: nephew show up. Uh. They're you know, horrified when they

1113
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: find the body of the maid. But the nephew, he's

1114
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: only got one thing on his mind, so he runs upstairs,

1115
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: goes into the bedroom where the old woman has been

1116
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 1: munched down by the cats. Uh, and he sees the

1117
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: will on the floor. He goes to get it, cat

1118
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: jumps onto his neck, rips his jugular open, and he dies.

1119
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: We also find that once they go up there, they

1120
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: discover the cats have also eaten the whole made They've

1121
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: just stripped her flesh like piranhas, and and it apparently

1122
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: has happened in a matter of seconds. Yeah, so it's ridiculous,

1123
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's terrific. You know that these cats

1124
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: are not only are they they they sinister and murderous,

1125
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: but they also understand that they have a legal claim

1126
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: to this house and the woman's estate, and they are

1127
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: willing to to to murder to protect it. Yeah, that's

1128
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: something I wasn't sure about. It. It does suggest that

1129
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: the cats understand the legal ramifications of what's going on,

1130
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: And I guess this ties in with the framing narrative,

1131
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: which is Peter Cushing's idea that that cats secretly understand

1132
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: everything and run the world, and that they're listening. Now

1133
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: you you watch the other segments that are they stand

1134
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 1: out at all, like like I felt like I hadn't

1135
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: I've had enough, you know, like my eyes would be

1136
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: bigger than my stomach if I if I kept going.

1137
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a I'd say the movie is very

1138
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: front loaded on the cats, because the first segment is

1139
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,919
Speaker 1: just cats, cats, cats, and the next two segments are

1140
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 1: about cats, but they're not constantly tons of cats hissing

1141
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: and screeching and me owing. There there's a little bit

1142
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 1: more with the human characters. The second segment has Charles

1143
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: Bronson's daughter in it, and she plays like a girl

1144
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: who uh gets taken into a new home and is

1145
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: mistreated by the like the daughter who already lives there

1146
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: and is and is she's very mean. She's like the

1147
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: mean daughter in in Jack Frost, and the mean daughter

1148
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: eventually gets punished by by Charles Bronson's daughter when she

1149
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: does a satanic ritual that like shrinks the mean girl

1150
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: down to the size of a mouse and then is

1151
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: tormented by the cat. But ultimately she gets stepped on

1152
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: by a human, not by by a cat, and then Uh.

1153
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: That scene at that segment also has a scene where

1154
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: the mean daughter is tormenting the main character with a

1155
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: remote control airplane. But while she's like supposedly controlling the airplane,

1156
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: you can actually see part of the airplane just poking

1157
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: into the frame, so it's just sitting right there in

1158
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: front of her. The third segment has Donald Pleasants and uh,

1159
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: and I think I was texting you about this in

1160
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 1: my phone auto corrected his name to Donald Pleasure, which

1161
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: is about right, because he is a pleasure. In this segment,

1162
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: he's wearing a red wig, so he's ginger Donald Pleasance.

1163
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: And he plays this vain actor who murders his wife

1164
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 1: to try to get a beautiful, younger new wife. Uh.

1165
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: And he tries to. He's like he's hostile towards his

1166
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: dead wife's cat, but the cat gets revenge on him. Nice.

1167
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: I believe there's a there's an iron maiden in this one, right, Yes, yes,

1168
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 1: there is an iron maiden, and uh, it's a prop

1169
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: iron maiden for use on a film set. But it

1170
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: turns out the spikes are actually metal and sharp, so

1171
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: that when he gets closed inside it, or when somebody

1172
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: gets closed inside it, it impales them. Well, you know,

1173
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: if you're a method actor, it's how you have to work. Yeah,

1174
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: there's a really good scene in the third segment where

1175
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: Donald Pleasants is demonstrating to a to a bad actress

1176
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 1: how to scream. People should just clip out that scene. Now.

1177
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: I want to include a word a word of warning

1178
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 1: about this film. So this is very much an animal's

1179
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 1: attack film from nine seven. Now, some of you might

1180
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: have more experience than others with animal attacks films, but

1181
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: certainly the older animal attacks film you're gonna run into

1182
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: some some questions about animal handling. Uh, And you certainly

1183
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: get that vibe with this pretiction with this production, especially

1184
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 1: in that first segment, which again just has so many cats. Um,

1185
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 1: it must have just been a nightmare to film, because

1186
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 1: I remember reading about the Cohen Brothers making inside Lewin

1187
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: Davis and about just how much trouble they had shooting

1188
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: one cat and getting one cat to do what they

1189
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 1: wanted to do. And in this segment of the nine

1190
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: twelve segment, they're just cats everywhere. It's just it's just

1191
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: awful to imagine. And I couldn't find anything concrete about

1192
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: cat mistreatment on the film. But um, imdbek has a

1193
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: has a bit in the Trivia claiming that cinematographer Harry

1194
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: Waxman threatened to quit when he found that the production

1195
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: was mistreating the cats. But it's not cited, so I

1196
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: don't know where he was saying that. I mean, I'm

1197
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: not particularly doubting it, I just don't have any evidence

1198
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:48,479
Speaker 1: to back that up. Well, I gotta say, I don't

1199
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: know if that claim is true, And even if it

1200
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: is true, I thought it was phrased in an ambiguous way,

1201
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: so I didn't know if that meant his objection was

1202
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: to the production actually mistreating cats or to the fact

1203
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: that the movie was about the mistreatment of cats. Right,

1204
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: but but certainly just so many cats being used. Uh,

1205
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: it does raise a red flag because if you know cats,

1206
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: cats in general do not want to be a part

1207
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: of your stupid movie project. They aren't even interested in

1208
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: watching your stupid movies unless you have some good high

1209
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: deaf bird or road in action. Um, you know, about

1210
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: the most that they'll do is they'll they'll tolerate setting

1211
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: on you during a film if you if you don't

1212
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: laugh too much. So I would say, if you're if

1213
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 1: you're sensitive to this sort of thing. Just skip this

1214
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: one all the way. Um. A plus on top of

1215
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: all this, the fiction of the film involves conflict between

1216
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: humans and house cats. Um, so you know it's it's

1217
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: going to deal with the idea of like your your

1218
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: fur babies as vicious murderers and something that you would

1219
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 1: have to combat. Well. On the other side, though, I

1220
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: would say that the cats in essentially all three segments

1221
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 1: are to the extent that there is a protagonist, the

1222
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: cats are the protect agonists and the human character. It's

1223
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: like Tales from the Crypt The human protagonists are bad

1224
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: people who are getting punished for their antagonism towards cats,

1225
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: and the cats win. Yeah, it's I I feel like

1226
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: this is kind of a golden rule of evil cat

1227
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: um horror fiction, right The cats need to win, like

1228
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: the cats never losen. Yeah, I mean that's the case

1229
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 1: with the cat from hell. Um. I don't know if

1230
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: to have some listeners chime in on this one. I

1231
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: think if they can think of any examples where, uh,

1232
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: the evil cat doesn't win, I cannot think of one.

1233
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it seems like a very ancient meme

1234
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: the cat came back. There is always the cats just

1235
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: always gonna win, all right. So I think we've established

1236
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: what this film is and what it's all about. It's

1237
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: time to start thinking deeply about it. So. Um, the

1238
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: first question that I think arises from all of this,

1239
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: especially that first segment when in which again cats clearly

1240
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: just straight up murder two people. Um, has a house

1241
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 1: at ever killed a human? Uh? And then I think

1242
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 1: this is a pretty interesting question to look into. Uh.

1243
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: And there have been a couple of articles at least

1244
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: that have have examined it. Mike Pearl that a solid

1245
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: article for Vice about five years ago on this topic,

1246
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 1: talking to some experts about not just the historical matters here,

1247
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: but also just the physical attack capabilities of cats and

1248
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 1: their jaws and their teeth. The consensus seems to be

1249
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: that that, okay, there are a few situations where cats

1250
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: have been linked to human deaths. For example, there are

1251
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 1: reports of cats accidentally smothering babies by laying on them,

1252
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: and this seems to have given rise to the you know,

1253
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: the long standing superstition that cats suck out of child's

1254
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: breath when they sleep. This, of course, was also part

1255
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: of the plot for Stephen King's Cat's Eye. Oh yeah,

1256
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 1: but of course The twist there is that the cat,

1257
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: the cat is is said to be the one sucking

1258
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 1: out her life essence, but really it's a troll and

1259
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: the cat is the bodyguard protecting her from the troll. Right,

1260
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: So so that's that's one area where you can say, Okay,

1261
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: this is an example where house cats have been linked

1262
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: to human deaths. Some people have also died from infections

1263
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 1: caused by cats, such as rabies, but no human in

1264
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 1: all of recorded history has ever been like straight up

1265
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: attacked and killed by a housecat. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened,

1266
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem to have happened in a way

1267
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,919
Speaker 1: that has been recorded and uh and has been made notable. Uh.

1268
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: And it basically comes back to the fact that cats,

1269
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 1: even a large housecat, simply doesn't have the bite strength

1270
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 1: to pull this off, unlike something like a domestic dog,

1271
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 1: which definitely does. I mean, even in the United States

1272
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: dogs kill thirty to fifty people a year now. Brian

1273
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: Palmer also wrote an article about this for Slate, and

1274
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 1: he he kicked off the article by pointing out that

1275
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: in UH, an Illinois man allegedly plotted to murder an

1276
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 1: attorney and frame the victims cat for the murder. So

1277
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: not an example of cats actually murdering somebody, but somebody

1278
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 1: thinking they could they could use that to cover their

1279
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: own track. That sounds very much like a segment that

1280
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:10,759
Speaker 1: would be in the Uncanny. Yeah. Um. Now, Palmer points

1281
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 1: out that there have been cases where a human has

1282
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 1: reportedly had a had a scrape with a cat, gotten

1283
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: into a fight with a cat essentially and have to

1284
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 1: have you know, some degree of of medical intervention. Uh.

1285
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: In two thousand ten, a postpartum cat in Idaho bit

1286
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: her owner thirty five times. Uh. There was a two

1287
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: thousand eleven case where a Cleveland man had to be

1288
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 1: air left lifted following a housecat attack. Uh. I couldn't

1289
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: find a lot of details about either of those cases,

1290
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 1: by the way, Um, so some questions remain. But you know,

1291
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: really these two accounts don't give as much to go

1292
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 1: on for a variety of reasons. House cats may engage

1293
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 1: in in you know, in in play aggressive behavior or

1294
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: even more legitimate aggressive behavior. They may act out in defense. Uh.

1295
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 1: There is a threshold to how much of your nonsense

1296
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,720
Speaker 1: that a cat is going to put up with a

1297
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: cat may scratch you, and a cat scratches, nothing to

1298
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: sneeze at, certainly, but almost certainly not gonna be lethal. Right.

1299
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 1: It seems like the main area where you see enhanced

1300
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: danger from cats from from house cats is is the

1301
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: area of a cat getting underfoot. So such as when

1302
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 1: you're carrying stuff in carrying in groceries, or you're doing

1303
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: something in the kitchen. I think about this a lot,

1304
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 1: like my cat is going to be the death of

1305
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: me because she's under my feet when I'm trying to

1306
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 1: move like a um, you know, boiling spaghetti around the

1307
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 1: kitchen or something. Yes. Uh, and dogs can do this too.

1308
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes I noticed there's like an ironic attraction.

1309
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:45,880
Speaker 1: It seems like dogs and cats often want to get

1310
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 1: under your feet right when you're doing something precarious, probably

1311
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 1: because it like looks unusual if you've got like a

1312
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: big package in your arms or something. Yeah, or with

1313
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: a cat, it's like it's happening in the kitchen, it

1314
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 1: might be food for me. So uh So I looked

1315
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: at this up a little bit, and I found a

1316
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 1: two thousand nine report from the CDC that said that

1317
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: pet related falls involving both dogs and cats injure more

1318
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 1: than eighty six thousand people annually. Now, this entails a

1319
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: number of pet activities, ranging from taking a dog on

1320
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 1: a walk to stepping over a cat. Uh, and also

1321
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,600
Speaker 1: involves like chasing or running from animals. So there's a

1322
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 1: lot that that is entailed there um this particular right

1323
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: up says quote most falls involving cats occurred at home

1324
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 1: eighty five point seven percent. Approximately eleven point seven percent

1325
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 1: of injuries occurred while persons were chasing cats. However, an

1326
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 1: activity was not specified. In sixty two point one percent

1327
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 1: of cases, the most frequent circumstances were falling or tripping

1328
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: over a cat. Twenty nine point two percent involved other

1329
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: or unknown circumstances. Now, how many of those cases where

1330
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: the cat caused to fall were due to someone trying

1331
01:11:54,960 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: to frame a cat for murder? I don't know half um.

1332
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: So the next question I have, of course, are our

1333
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 1: cats supernatural? Are they actually the spawn of Satan? Obviously,

1334
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,919
Speaker 1: housecats are not the spawn of Satan. They're not magical,

1335
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 1: but of course they have. They have been long associated

1336
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: with magical and or diabolical ideas, and a lot of

1337
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:20,640
Speaker 1: this seems to come from several different qualities that we

1338
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: observe in cats. Um. So for starters, cats haven't been

1339
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:27,679
Speaker 1: domesticated as long as dogs and are by some estimates

1340
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,679
Speaker 1: self domesticating. So there's this idea that the the cat

1341
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 1: retains a certain amount of power over itself that we

1342
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:38,919
Speaker 1: might find suspicious or intimidating at times. Cats are obviously

1343
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 1: stealthy and uh and move around in ways that that

1344
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: we might have a difficulty, you know, detecting them, and

1345
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: they may play at hunting you especially, you know, a

1346
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: house cat may do this, but I've seen outdoor cats

1347
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 1: engage in this kind of behavior as well, which can

1348
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: be maybe a trifle unnerving. Cats are also frequently active

1349
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: at night, and their eyes have a reflective layer called

1350
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 1: the tapatum lucidum that magnifies incoming light and is the

1351
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 1: reason you'll see this reflective, sometimes greenish glint to their

1352
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,639
Speaker 1: eyes at night, and it can certainly have a kind

1353
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 1: of fairy fire look to it. Yeah, they've got the

1354
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 1: same thing that like spiders have. Yeah. Uh. And I

1355
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 1: think other things just to keep in mind is that,

1356
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 1: of course cats are just really weird. Um. They're they're

1357
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: kind of paranoid because they're in this weird space between

1358
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 1: prey and predator. Um. And I feel like they're just

1359
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: harder to read. Sometimes. I feel like you can you

1360
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: can kind of get to know a dog pretty well,

1361
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: but cats pose more mystery. Yeah, I mean, I think

1362
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,639
Speaker 1: a lot of it's just personality differences in the species.

1363
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: Dogs tend to be much more social. They're the kind

1364
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 1: of personality that, if they were a human, you describe

1365
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 1: as a person who's an open book. Uh. They're they're

1366
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 1: very outward about their emotions and all that. Cats read

1367
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: to humans as a loof reserved kind of playing defense.

1368
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:01,759
Speaker 1: So we've read a lot into that over the years,

1369
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 1: um and and as and it's comes now subroad that

1370
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 1: you see cats featuring into various uh cultures and religions.

1371
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: We can identify a you know, wide variety of attitudes

1372
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 1: and superstitions towards cats, and they range from divine qualities

1373
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,120
Speaker 1: as identified by the ancient Egyptians, uh, you know, to

1374
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: just admirable qualities as identified by the prophet Muhammad. Uh.

1375
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 1: He was said to have a loyal cat named Musa,

1376
01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: and there were various traditions and legends that were swapped

1377
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 1: around associated with Musa. I recommend researching that. It's pretty

1378
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: it's pretty interesting in India. UM. As described in uh

1379
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:43,959
Speaker 1: Nanda Christiana's Excellent Sacred Animals of the India, the domestic

1380
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 1: cat is the vehicle of of Shash, the fertility goddess

1381
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: popular in parts of India. UM. So you know, you'll

1382
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 1: look at iconography of this particular goddess and you'll see

1383
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 1: that they're clearly writing, you know, kind of standing on

1384
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,639
Speaker 1: a house cat. Interesting, however, or Christiana also writes that

1385
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: in parts of India, a cat crossing one's path is

1386
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: still considered inauspicious. Though, so there's still a certain amount

1387
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: of negative superstition wound up in cultural attitudes towards cats

1388
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 1: as well. But then, uh, there are a host of

1389
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: just superstitious cruelties involving cats. Um. In The Golden Bough,

1390
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:27,280
Speaker 1: James Fraser wrote of French shepherd traditions that involve burning

1391
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: or roasting cats alive, and a bonfire is a way

1392
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 1: to protect the flock against sickness and witchcraft. Yeah, that

1393
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 1: just seems to obviously tie into the historical association between

1394
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 1: cats and witchcraft. Cats often seen as the familiars of witches,

1395
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 1: the familiar spirits. Yeah, either either they're working with the

1396
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: witches or they are themselves transformed witches. And so you

1397
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 1: see this android I customs that survived throughout Europe. Uh.

1398
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: He points out that other animals, such as snakes and

1399
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 1: foxes suffered the same fate due to the same so

1400
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 1: siations with alleged witches. The cats are not witches, folks,

1401
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 1: They're they're they're keeping your basement rat free. Come on,

1402
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: what more could you want if you're gonna If you're

1403
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 1: gonna air, I would say air on the side of

1404
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: believing your cat to be a tiny god, because they

1405
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 1: certainly believe they're tiny gods. Uh. There's no excuse for

1406
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 1: cruelty to cats, be at your cat or somebody else's cat,

1407
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 1: be at a domestic purely domestic house cat, or a

1408
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: feral cat. Now, the next question, I guess kind of

1409
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 1: the final question that the the uncanny makes me ponder,

1410
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: is this our cats vengeful? Can you know? Because these

1411
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 1: are all tales of like cats enacting revenge cats leading

1412
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 1: to the come uppance for villainous humans. Um. And it's

1413
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: really one that's that's interesting to think about because you

1414
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 1: actually hear about this a lot, if you know people

1415
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: with cats, if you yourself have cats, stories of cats

1416
01:16:56,160 --> 01:17:00,719
Speaker 1: allegedly lashing out against their humans or particular human perhaps

1417
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 1: peeing on something that they value or slashing something up

1418
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: in retaliation to something they don't like. I've seen behavior

1419
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 1: in cats that I've never seen in dogs, like a

1420
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 1: cat being angry at being bothered or something, and then

1421
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: not just reacting with the sort of defensive scratch, but

1422
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 1: like chasing you afterwards to to hiss and scratch. Yeah. Again,

1423
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 1: cats are weird. We have to we have to keep

1424
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,040
Speaker 1: that in mind. I think a lot of a lot

1425
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: of the A lot of this goes without saying. You

1426
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: know that that obviously when humans have pets, we anthropomorphize them.

1427
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:40,120
Speaker 1: We have from anthropomorphies our dogs and our cats and

1428
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: any other animals we might have around the house, and

1429
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 1: in doing so, it's easy to for forget that they

1430
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 1: are different beings. You know, that they live in a

1431
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 1: different since world there. You know, they don't just have

1432
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 1: a small human brain inside that skull of theirs. Uh,

1433
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:59,799
Speaker 1: And we've put them in strange conditions that they didn't

1434
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 1: really fully evolved to inhabit. On the other hand, we

1435
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:07,439
Speaker 1: can't think of them as just completely you know, unemotional beings.

1436
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 1: I mean, so so the question becomes one of this. So,

1437
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 1: if a cat is capable of emotional states, is it

1438
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:18,839
Speaker 1: capable of seeking revenge? Is it capable of being vengeful

1439
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 1: or spiteful? I mean, I think of revenge as as

1440
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:26,720
Speaker 1: an evolved adaptation that's special in social groups when, like,

1441
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: you expect to be interacting with the same individuals again

1442
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 1: and again over time, and you need to behave in

1443
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 1: a way that that punishes them for behaviors across time,

1444
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 1: not just like discourages something in the moment, but but

1445
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 1: like continues to enforce the kind of behavior you want

1446
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 1: from others even after the behavior has stopped. Yeah. So

1447
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 1: we're already in a strange position because we, as very

1448
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 1: social mammals are are trying to apply the same like

1449
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 1: social structure and uh and and behave realism on creatures

1450
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 1: that are far more solitary than we are. So I

1451
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,799
Speaker 1: was looking around for for any you know of feedback

1452
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: on this, for any inside on this, and I ran

1453
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: across the cat coach, Maryland Krieger, who is a certified

1454
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: cat behavior consultant with the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants.

1455
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:23,760
Speaker 1: And uh, they've they've written about this before. UM, And

1456
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 1: I was looking at a particular article on catster dot com,

1457
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 1: and they pointed out, quote cats always have legitimate reasons

1458
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 1: for their behaviors, holding grudges and deliberately being irritating are

1459
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 1: not among them. I guess it would depend on your definitions,

1460
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 1: though I would be skeptical of anyone saying that any

1461
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 1: organism always has legitimate reasons for its behaviors. I mean,

1462
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 1: sometimes behaviors just kind of happen. Well, I mean it

1463
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:48,640
Speaker 1: makes you ask a lot of questions about revenge. Is

1464
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: there a legitimate revenge? Like if it happens in a

1465
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: Shakespeare play, is that it's like, that's legitimate, Or it

1466
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 1: happens in a TV drama, it's legitimate, whereas real life

1467
01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:01,480
Speaker 1: revenge is rarely that simple. I mean, you know, it's

1468
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 1: it gets gets pretty mudy pretty quickly. I guess maybe

1469
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 1: the point here, which would seem pretty reasonable to me,

1470
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 1: is that, uh that it's it seems like a cat's

1471
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,880
Speaker 1: time horizon for reacting to behavior is probably gonna be

1472
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 1: a lot shorter and probably going to be a lot

1473
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 1: more just like basically situationally utilitarian. Then uh then would

1474
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: be justified justified by a wrath of con style revenge plot. Right, Yeah,

1475
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:28,720
Speaker 1: I guess that's the big question. Our cats capable of

1476
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:34,800
Speaker 1: plotting revenge? Um, that seems I think there's a strong

1477
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 1: case to say no. However, will a cat scratch you, uh,

1478
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 1: bite you, or hiss at you because you did something

1479
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: that they did not like like as an immediate response?

1480
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 1: I think the answer there obviously yes. If you don't

1481
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,240
Speaker 1: believe me, uh you know, think think about the last

1482
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 1: time you try to touch your cat's belly and they

1483
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: weren't into it. They probably let you know, uh you

1484
01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 1: know cats. Cats will generally be very um, if not vocal,

1485
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:03,599
Speaker 1: then at least active about their preferences regarding their their

1486
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,880
Speaker 1: belly fur. I remember cats cats I've known being very

1487
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:09,679
Speaker 1: sensitive about their paws, Like you don't want to touch

1488
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:13,600
Speaker 1: the pause, Yeah, those are their murder weapons. Don't disrespect them.

1489
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 1: It's like you cannot touch my sword. Yeah, unlets it

1490
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 1: draws your blood. The warrior's sword is sacred, so for

1491
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 1: a cat. Crager points out what frequently happens is that

1492
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,720
Speaker 1: a cat does something in response to change in their

1493
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 1: immediate environment, and they're highly susceptible to change in their environment.

1494
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:35,440
Speaker 1: A change in the household can induce stress and anxiety

1495
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: in the cat, and this can lead to medical problems

1496
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:41,959
Speaker 1: like actual like legitimate medical problems such as urinary tract problems,

1497
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,639
Speaker 1: bladder problems, etcetera, that may cause them to do things

1498
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:49,719
Speaker 1: that can then be interpreted as acting out um, even

1499
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 1: things like so called spike ping. Uh you know where

1500
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 1: they're they're paying on, say your favorite pillow or something.

1501
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 1: It might be tied to a medical issue like some

1502
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 1: sort of bladder flare up, or it could be tied

1503
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 1: more to like a separation anxiety, which may cause them

1504
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 1: to urinate on their favorite person stuff in order to

1505
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:11,320
Speaker 1: mingle their scent with that of the owner. So again,

1506
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,320
Speaker 1: like that's the kind of thing where that's outside of

1507
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: the human um you know, our human emotional states for

1508
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:20,360
Speaker 1: the most part, than the idea of mingling sense to

1509
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:23,680
Speaker 1: feel with someone else's sense to feel better about them

1510
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:27,679
Speaker 1: being away from you. But within a cat sense realm uh,

1511
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 1: that may make perfect sense, Like that is the perfect

1512
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:33,040
Speaker 1: thing to do. That is the perfect comforting act. Yeah,

1513
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 1: And then on the other side of it, like there

1514
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 1: are some analogies I think people can understand pretty well,

1515
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: Like it might be harder to behave correctly and uh,

1516
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 1: maintain mastery over all your bodily functions when you're very stressed. Yeah,

1517
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's difficult for us, it's gonna be

1518
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 1: difficult for other organisms as well. So I think it's

1519
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,439
Speaker 1: worth keeping in mind that, you know, the cat world

1520
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: is different from the human world, even if we're sharing

1521
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 1: the same house. And I mean this applies to any animal.

1522
01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:02,759
Speaker 1: The dog world is different from the human world even

1523
01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:06,680
Speaker 1: though you you spend your lives together, you share the

1524
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 1: same space, but you don't see the world the same.

1525
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 1: All right. Uh. On that note, I think we're gonna

1526
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 1: go ahead and close it out here. Um. As of

1527
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 1: October twenty twenty, I believe you can watch You can

1528
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 1: generally watch the Treehouse of Horror episodes on Disney Plus.

1529
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 1: I think that's where they're currently hosted. For streaming, The

1530
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:27,760
Speaker 1: Uncanny was a little harder for me to get a

1531
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 1: hold of. I had to subscribe to some sort of

1532
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 1: some indie channel on Amazon Prime in order to streaming

1533
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:35,799
Speaker 1: to stream it, but I don't know it's it's probably

1534
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 1: out on the YouTube or something as well. I found

1535
01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 1: it on the tube of the Second Person, but you

1536
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 1: know that may change by the time you listen to

1537
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:47,280
Speaker 1: this episode. Perhaps it's streaming in a more accessible place.

1538
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna go ahead and close the door

1539
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:55,559
Speaker 1: on Anthology of Horror Volume six and hey, if you

1540
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:59,440
Speaker 1: like these, if you want this tradition to continue next October,

1541
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:01,880
Speaker 1: well you have a little less than a year to

1542
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:07,440
Speaker 1: start pelting us with suggestions. What are your favorite episodes

1543
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 1: of various horror and sci fi UH anthology series that

1544
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 1: you would like us to consider, or your favorite segments

1545
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 1: from anthology films UH let us know we would love

1546
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 1: to hear from you. In the meantime, if you want

1547
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 1: to listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind,

1548
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:23,760
Speaker 1: you can find us wherever you find your podcasts and

1549
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:25,840
Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just asked that you rate,

1550
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 1: review and subscribe. You can always find us by going

1551
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:30,479
Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That will

1552
01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:32,680
Speaker 1: shoot you over to our high Heart page and if

1553
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:35,000
Speaker 1: you go there, there's a listing for our store, and

1554
01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 1: if you go there, if you can buy a shirt

1555
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 1: with our logo or a monster on which thanks as

1556
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

1557
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1558
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

1559
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:49,479
Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello. You can

1560
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:52,120
Speaker 1: email us at contact and Stuff to Blow Your Mind

1561
01:24:52,320 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

1562
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1563
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,759
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1564
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 1: you listening to your favorite shows.