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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump is a climate denier.

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Speaker 3: I believe that there's a change in weather, and I

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Speaker 3: think it changes both ways. Off It used to be

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Speaker 3: called global warming. That wasn't working. Then it was called

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Speaker 3: climate change. Now it's actually called extreme weather because with

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Speaker 3: extreme weather you can miss well.

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Speaker 2: Campaigning for President, Trump called climate change a big hoax.

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Speaker 2: He vowed to get rid of climate policies he dubbed

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Speaker 2: the Green new Scam and the Inflation Reduction Act, Biden's

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Speaker 2: signature climate loss supporting clean energy projects. His victory will

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Speaker 2: shake up US energy and environmental policy and have sweeping

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Speaker 2: implications for oil production, clean water, offshore wind development, electric

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Speaker 2: vehicle sales, public monuments, endangered species, and more. Joining me

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Speaker 2: is environmental law expert Pack Para, a professor at the

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Speaker 2: Vermont Law and Graduate School. The previous Trump administration favored

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Speaker 2: fossil fuel development over environmental conservation and climate policies. I mean,

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Speaker 2: broadly speaking, do you expect more of the same, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Even more of the same. I think it fossil fuels

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Speaker 1: on steroids. Frankly, you know Trump is promising to go

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Speaker 1: after on day one, the tailpipe emission standards, that EPA

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Speaker 1: has created what he calls an insane EV mandate, which

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Speaker 1: it isn't either insane or an EV mandate. It does

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Speaker 1: align with what's happening in the market place with evs,

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Speaker 1: but it's not a mandate for evs. And you know,

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Speaker 1: right from the get go, he has ordered the new

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Speaker 1: EPA nominee, former representative from Long Island, Zelden, to immediately

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Speaker 1: began a massive deregulatory effort aimed at climate change rules.

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Speaker 1: He's clearly going to be doing Trump's bidding in going

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Speaker 1: after the power plant rules, the methane rules, and every

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Speaker 1: rule having any negative impacts as they see it on

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Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry. And the same thing for public lands.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be drill, baby, drill, as Trump has

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Speaker 1: promised in the campaign speeches over and over again. And

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Speaker 1: the question there will be, of course, is there really

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Speaker 1: a demand for a lot more oil and gas?

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Speaker 2: I mean, let's start with oil and gas. He promised

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Speaker 2: to unleash American energy and free up the vast stores

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Speaker 2: of liquid gold on America's public land for energy development.

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Speaker 2: If you look at Project twenty twenty five, they're thinking

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Speaker 2: of drilling in conservation areas.

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Speaker 1: Even right the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, which of course

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Speaker 1: has been a controversial subject for decades now. The real question, though,

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Speaker 1: is with oil and gas production in the United States,

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Speaker 1: particularly on public lands, booming under the Biden administration, even

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Speaker 1: more so than it did under the first Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: certainly more than even Obama, which was pro oil and

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Speaker 1: gas development. And so you know, there's more land and

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Speaker 1: water under lease right now than can be extracted and exploited.

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Speaker 1: You know, the price of gas is coming down, contrary

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Speaker 1: to what apparently a lot of people who voted for

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Speaker 1: Trump felt, And there's more than enough oil and gas

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Speaker 1: already in the quote pipeline that new offers of leases,

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Speaker 1: if they are bid on, they'll be bidded on at

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Speaker 1: rock bottom prices. They'll be almost giveaway leases. There's an

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Speaker 1: awful lot of speculative leasing on public lands, and I

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Speaker 1: would expect to see some of that.

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Speaker 4: But as far as you know, a clear.

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Speaker 1: Demand for further oil and gas in the near term anyway,

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Speaker 1: there just isn't any There is for the export market

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Speaker 1: to Europe, which of course Trump is targeted. In other

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Speaker 1: parts of the world, and of course in that sense,

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Speaker 1: we're like any other petro state. I mean, we're producing

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Speaker 1: it for the export market primarily, and that's expected to continue.

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Speaker 2: Pat. I remember we talked many times during the first

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Speaker 2: Trump administration about public monuments and his you know, taking

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Speaker 2: back land from public monuments. Do you think he'll target

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Speaker 2: public monuments again?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I do.

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Speaker 1: The two in question are Bears Ears in Utah and

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Speaker 1: Grand Staircase Escalante in Colorado. These are both on what

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Speaker 1: we call the Colorado Plateau, some of the most magnificent

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Speaker 1: natural resources in the country and of course very very

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Speaker 1: sacred to a number of tribes, particularly bears Eers, and

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Speaker 1: there is an inter tribal intergovernmental organization that's managing bears

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Speaker 1: Eers right now. And so the first question is going

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Speaker 1: to be will he go back to cutting bearziers back

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Speaker 1: to about a quarter of the original designation for that

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Speaker 1: particular monument. And you know, there's no not a lot

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Speaker 1: of oil and gas in there, but there are other minerals,

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Speaker 1: including uranium and probably some coal resources and other minerals

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Speaker 1: that might be valuable, copper and so forth. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I would expect to see Bear's Ears and Grand Staircase

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Speaker 1: reduced substantially the way they were before. Of course, all

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Speaker 1: of this is going to go into the courts and

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Speaker 1: be litigated for years, But in terms of Trump's initial

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Speaker 1: public lands moves, I think monuments will certainly be on

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Speaker 1: the agenda.

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Speaker 2: It seems like there are a lot of top things

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Speaker 2: that he's targeted having to do with the environment. He

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Speaker 2: said he wants to undo Biden's signature historic climate law,

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Speaker 2: the Inflation Reduction Act. Tell us about that act.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is clearly the most significant climate legislation at

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Speaker 1: the national level that we've seen. In fact, I would

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Speaker 1: say probably it's one of the most significant in the world.

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Speaker 1: It talks about investing three hundred and sixty billion dollars

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Speaker 1: in renewable energy, wind and solar and the ect vehicles

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Speaker 1: and buildings and heat pumps and all kinds of things,

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Speaker 1: a lot of benefits for consumers. Its primary mechanism is

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Speaker 1: tax credits and other kinds of incentives, So it's not

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Speaker 1: a regulatory program at all. It's quite the contrary. It's

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Speaker 1: using the marketplace and it's designed to leverage even substantially

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Speaker 1: more private capital, and it's doing that. In fact, it's

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Speaker 1: doing it in Republican districts all across the country. It

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Speaker 1: will be interesting to see how the new Congress and

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Speaker 1: the House is going to deal with Trump's promise to

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Speaker 1: freeze all further funding under the Inflation Reduction Act and

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Speaker 1: try to quote claw back some of the money that's

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Speaker 1: already been obligated. This is going to come down to

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Speaker 1: some legal questions about how much of the money is

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Speaker 1: Biden able to actually put under contracts, you know, in

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Speaker 1: other words, lock it up through legal mechanisms before his

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Speaker 1: time runs out in January. I know the administration from

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Speaker 1: all the accounts is working fever night and day to

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Speaker 1: push as much of that money out the door and

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Speaker 1: get it under legally binding agreements that Trump can't easily

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Speaker 1: repeal or revoke. Of course, with you know, the Republicans

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Speaker 1: in control of both the House and the Senate by

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Speaker 1: slim majorities. Even so, I expect to see legislation introduced

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Speaker 1: to try to quote claw back some of the authorization

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Speaker 1: that hasn't been completely obligated, and maybe even some that

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Speaker 1: has been obligated. Whether the Republicans have the muscle to

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Speaker 1: push all that through both houses is an open question

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Speaker 1: because of the close margins, But I think it's fair

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Speaker 1: to say that the promise of the Inflation Reduction Act

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Speaker 1: to really move the needle on transitions to cleaner energy

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Speaker 1: and transportation is going to be stalled, if not thwarted altogether.

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Speaker 1: And we certainly won't meet the commitments we've made under

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Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement. And of course Trump will undoubtedly withdraw

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Speaker 1: us from the Paris Agreement once again.

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Speaker 2: And that clean green energy money is by design eighty

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Speaker 2: percent is going into Republican districts. So there's that. Now.

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Speaker 2: He can't just get rid of that with executive action.

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Speaker 2: What does he have to do.

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Speaker 1: Unless the funds have not been obligated legally, he does

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Speaker 1: have some control over that. He has claimed that he

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Speaker 1: will simply impound money from the Inflation Reduction Act, but

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have the constitutional authority to do that, at

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Speaker 1: least not according to existing Supreme Court precedent. That's the

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Speaker 1: Chada case which Nixon tried to impound funds under the

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Speaker 1: Clean Water Act, and the Supreme Court said, you can't

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Speaker 1: do that under separation of powers. Once Congress has appropriated it,

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Speaker 1: you have to spend it or go back to Congress

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Speaker 1: and get them to change the original authorization. So Trump

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Speaker 1: may try to do that, right, I mean, he's fond

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Speaker 1: of saying stop me if you can in court. So

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Speaker 1: he may in fact try to impound funds under the

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Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act if he can't get Congress to move

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Speaker 1: quickly to repeal some of the authorization.

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Speaker 2: Let's turn to water, clean water, drinking water regulations. One

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Speaker 2: of the first rules that it's expected will be on

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Speaker 2: the chopping block is the wotis rule, waters of the

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Speaker 2: United States. What's likely to happen there?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So, waters of the United States is the term that

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Speaker 1: denotes the geographic scope of the Clean Water Act. And

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Speaker 1: when you think about the Clean Water Act, you know

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Speaker 1: it has multiple provisions. It regulates, of course, discharges of

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Speaker 1: pollutants from all kinds of industrial sources, municipal sources, storm

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Speaker 1: water sources, even some major agricultural sources like factory farms.

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Speaker 1: It creates a system of water quality standards that protect

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Speaker 1: uses of water for drinking and recreation and fish and

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Speaker 1: wildlife and a whole variety of purposes. These are the

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Speaker 1: uses that the states individually designate for protection, and then

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Speaker 1: they get the federal protection so that if upstream sources

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Speaker 1: of pollution are impacting downstream state uses of water. Then

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Speaker 1: the Clean Water Act allows EPA to step in and

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Speaker 1: make sure that doesn't happen. In it protects wetlands, It

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Speaker 1: has a lot of planning provisions in it on a

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Speaker 1: watershed basis that looks at entire ecosystems aquatic ecosystems as

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Speaker 1: a unit. And it gets states to cooperate like in

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Speaker 1: the Chesapeake Bay, where you have a massive basin that

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Speaker 1: contributes to the water quality problems.

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Speaker 4: In Chesapeake Bay.

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Speaker 1: It's the Clean Water Act that brings everybody to the

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Speaker 1: table and gets them to agree on cleanup programs and

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Speaker 1: prevention programs. So when you talk about Lotus and waters

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Speaker 1: of the US, you're going after the foundation of the

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Speaker 1: entire Clean Water Act in the United States. And the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court in the Sacket case has already substantially reduce

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Speaker 1: the scope of the Clean Water Act and federal protection.

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Speaker 1: And the Trump administration, at least according to early signs,

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Speaker 1: isn't even satisfied with the amount of reduction of federal

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Speaker 1: regulation of water quality and maybe looking for even further

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Speaker 1: ways of shrinking the scope of the Clean Water Act.

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Speaker 1: We know that red state Republican attorneys general have sued

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Speaker 1: even the scaled back version of the Clean Water Act

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Speaker 1: and are trying to scale it back even further. And

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Speaker 1: so I think we can expect the Trump administration to

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Speaker 1: agree with those red states that are challenging the existing

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Speaker 1: framework of the Clean Water Act, and states, of course

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Speaker 1: are free to fill the gap and come up with

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Speaker 1: their own programs. But there's been several surveys and studies

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Speaker 1: done by the Environmental Law Institute which demonstrates that over

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Speaker 1: half of the states have laws on the books that

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Speaker 1: say that states cannot regulate beyond what the federal law requires.

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Speaker 1: So when you take the federal law out of the equation,

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Speaker 1: then there's no protection at all in many of these states.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of water quality, I think we're facing

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Speaker 1: some really serious setbacks, both as a result of the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, which of course has three Trump appointees on it,

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Speaker 1: and now with the Trump administration in charge of EPA,

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Speaker 1: and with Congress in the hands of Republicans who's expressed

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Speaker 1: serious doubts about all this federal regulation. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of communities across the country have yet to find out,

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Speaker 1: you know, just how vulnerable they're going to be when

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Speaker 1: EPA leads the scene and nobody takes their place.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue

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Speaker 2: this conversation with Professor Pat Parento. Environmental groups are quickly

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Speaker 2: getting information to play defense against the incoming Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg. The first Trump administration often favored fossil

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Speaker 2: fuel development over environmental conservation and climate policies. Trump has

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Speaker 2: called climate change a big hoax and vowed to get

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Speaker 2: rid of climate policies he's dubbed the Green new scam.

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Speaker 2: So the second Trump administration might pose even more hazards

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Speaker 2: to the environment. I've been talking to Professor Pat Parento

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Speaker 2: of the Vermont Law and Graduate School. What about the

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Speaker 2: lead and Copper rule regulations where there's a mandate that

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Speaker 2: all lead drinking water pipes be removed by twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a really expensive item, right. It's

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Speaker 1: going to take a lot of work to tear up

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Speaker 1: older cities water infrastructure and replace all of those lead pipes.

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Speaker 1: And if you do it correctly, you can't just replace

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Speaker 1: the main lines. You've got to replace the lines right

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Speaker 1: into people's houses with cleaner, safer lines. That's a huge

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Speaker 1: you know, almost an interstate highway kind of capital program,

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Speaker 1: if you if you're going to do it across the country.

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Speaker 1: So the price tag of something like that is certainly

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Speaker 1: going to get a lot of attention from the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration and from Congress.

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Speaker 4: And you know whether Congress is going to be.

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Speaker 1: Willing to either mandate that cities you know, undertake that,

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Speaker 1: or provide significant federal funds as we used to do

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Speaker 1: to address water quality problems. Those are both open questions.

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Speaker 1: But I think going in you have to assume that

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Speaker 1: once the real price tag is known by the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: it's probably going to back away from that commitment to

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Speaker 1: provide safe drinking water to people all across the country.

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Speaker 2: Pat how many of these are rules so that in

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Speaker 2: order to undo them they have to go through the

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Speaker 2: formal notice and comment rulemaking process to repeal and rewrite

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Speaker 2: the Biden regulations.

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Speaker 1: Right, So most of these issues we've been talking about,

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Speaker 1: our rules that had to go through the Administrative Procedure

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Speaker 1: Act notice and common And by the way, in Trump

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Speaker 1: one EPA and several other agencies, Interior Department failed to

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Speaker 1: follow the requirement of the Administrative Procedure Act and found

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Speaker 1: that they lost about eighty some percent of the cases

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Speaker 1: in which they were challenged this time around. They may

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Speaker 1: be smarter about that. You'd probably think they would be smarter.

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Speaker 1: But if they're in a hurry, if they're in a

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Speaker 1: rush to show progress on this deregulatory program, they're probably

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Speaker 1: going to be cutting some corners and skipping some steps

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Speaker 1: that are required by law, including notice and comment. And

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Speaker 1: you know, the environmental community is geared and ready to go.

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Speaker 1: They know the playbook, and I know because I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to them. They're beefing up their staffs. They're hiring more lawyers,

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Speaker 1: they're going to be doing more fundraising. You know, the

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Speaker 1: the ARA Club alone filed over four hundred lawsuits against

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Speaker 1: Trump attempts to roll back rules. When you think about

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Speaker 1: Earth Justice, the Natural Resources Defense Counsel, and many other

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Speaker 1: major environmental groups, they are going to be challenging Trump's

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Speaker 1: and Administrator Zelden's attempts to repeal and revoke these rules.

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Speaker 1: And it remains to be seen how that's going to

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Speaker 1: all play out in court. We know there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of Trump judges on the federal bench. There are

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Speaker 1: still some vacancies that the Democrats are trying to fill

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Speaker 1: before their time is up, but there's still going to

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Speaker 1: be dozens of vacancies on the federal bench and maybe

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Speaker 1: more over the four years of the next Trump administration.

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Speaker 4: So you know, the prospect for how.

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Speaker 1: These these attempts to deregulate are going to play out

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Speaker 1: in court, it's an open question right now. Lots of litigation,

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Speaker 1: for sure, wins and losses both ways, for sure. But

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Speaker 1: you know, Trump can't do this with the snap of

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Speaker 1: a finger. A lot of it is going to have

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Speaker 1: to go through court before it's resolved.

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Speaker 2: Power plants, he has fouled to terminate EPA rules that

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Speaker 2: stifle power plant pollution and encourage the closure of units

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Speaker 2: generating electricity from coal. I mean, tell us what his

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Speaker 2: goal is here.

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Speaker 1: Right, So we know that coal plants are closing largely

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Speaker 1: in response to the growth of natural gas plants, but

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Speaker 1: also because wind and solar, particularly in places like Texas

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Speaker 1: and Iowa where it's really a major source of their

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Speaker 1: electricity generation. We know that those other sources are coming

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Speaker 1: online and actually out competing coal in terms of the

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Speaker 1: price to consumers. So this idea that the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: is going to try to repeal the rules that are

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Speaker 1: imposing further limits or requirements on coal plants is probably

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Speaker 1: not going to work out in terms of the marketplace.

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Speaker 1: It may have some short term impacts, you know, depending

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Speaker 1: on how the attempts to roll back the power plant rule,

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Speaker 1: for example, which requires use of carbon capture and sequestration.

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Speaker 1: This is a technology, it's really a system of technologies

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Speaker 1: that the fossil fuel industry has been touting as the

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Speaker 1: answer to climate change. I mean many many coal and

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Speaker 1: utilities and oil and gas companies like Exon and Shell

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Speaker 1: and so forth. They're all saying that, look, we can

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Speaker 1: continue to extract and burn fossil fuels because we have

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Speaker 1: this wonderful technology that will capture the emissions and sequester

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Speaker 1: them underground in geologic formations.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: But when it came to EPA saying okay, put your

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Speaker 1: money where your mouth is, we're going to actually require

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Speaker 1: coal plants in particular to either decide to phase out

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Speaker 1: operation of these aging coal plants by they were going

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Speaker 1: to give them until twenty thirty two to do that,

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Speaker 1: or if you want to maintain them beyond that date,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have to install ninety percent carbon capture systems.

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Speaker 1: And of course the industry bulked at that and screen

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Speaker 1: that's way too expensive and prohibitive, and therefore it's not

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Speaker 1: quote adequately demonstrated as required by the Clean Air Act.

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Speaker 1: So that's where that battle is going to focus is

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Speaker 1: on you. If you don't require FPS capture technology, then

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Speaker 1: there really is no way to regulate the carbon emissions

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Speaker 1: from coal plants. And by the way, a lot of

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Speaker 1: this focus on these are quote climate rules misses the

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Speaker 1: point that they are actually regulating multiple kinds of pollutants,

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Speaker 1: including hazardous pollutants like mercury and other pollutants like sulfur

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Speaker 1: dioxide and nitrogen oxide which causes acid rain, volatile organic

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Speaker 1: compounds from gas plants that cause all kinds of health problems.

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Speaker 1: EPA's data on the value of these various rules that

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Speaker 1: are now on the chopping block is that their greatest

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Speaker 1: economic value is in protecting people from a lot of

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Speaker 1: other health effects, including premature depth to the tune of

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Speaker 1: about ninety thousand people a year that live around coal

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Speaker 1: fired power plants. So these rules aren't just climate rules,

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Speaker 1: their public health rule. And if you start saying that

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Speaker 1: we're not going to be regulating these pollutants or transitioning

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Speaker 1: to cleaner sources, and that gets us back to the

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Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act. So, you know, the regulations and the

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Speaker 1: investments in the transition to other sources, you know, they

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Speaker 1: go hand in hand. They were part of a package.

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Speaker 1: And if the Trump administration is going to take both

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Speaker 1: the elements out of the package, both the sticks and

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Speaker 1: the carrots, then we have no climate policy at all

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Speaker 1: at the national government. That seems to be where we're headed.

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Speaker 2: We talked a lot about dangers to endangered species during

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Speaker 2: the first Trump administration, and I saw that the Bureau

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Speaker 2: of Land Management is trying to rush into place protection

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Speaker 2: for the greater sage grouse on federal land before the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration takes office in January. How much are endangered

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Speaker 2: species going to be even more endangered during a second

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Speaker 2: Trump administration?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Well, the unfortunate thing for the grouse is that its

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Speaker 1: habitat happens to be right in the middle of an

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Speaker 1: oil and gas field. So when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: choice between oil and gas and grouse, guess who's going

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Speaker 1: to lose. Yeah, I think the endangered species fact is

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Speaker 1: in serious trouble. That's the law that I, you know,

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Speaker 1: have been involved with for literally fifty years and I

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Speaker 1: litigated some of the early cases under the Act. So

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Speaker 1: both in Congress, you know, and through the administration, I

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Speaker 1: think the Act is in serious trouble, even though it's

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Speaker 1: highly popular with the public at least you when you

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Speaker 1: pull the public on do they want to see strong

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Speaker 1: protections for endangered species? You know there's a very high

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Speaker 1: percentage sometimes eighty or even ninety public, you know, support

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Speaker 1: for protecting endangered species and their habitat. But you know,

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Speaker 1: anytime that that that interferes with other commodity uses, whether

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Speaker 1: it's oil and gas, or mining for copper or other

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Speaker 1: valuable minerals, or grazing or any any other major economic interests,

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Speaker 1: you know it's going to lose out. It's one of

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Speaker 1: those laws because it's trying to protect the entire sort

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Speaker 1: of spectrum of species, all the way down to plants

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Speaker 1: and insects. And of course, when you think of insects,

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Speaker 1: you think, well, why are we protecting insects? But when

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Speaker 1: you think about pollinators, that's one good reason why we

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Speaker 1: protect insects. There are a keystone species for a lot

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Speaker 1: of food crops, and you can go down the list.

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Speaker 1: There's lots of reasons economic reasons why protecting species makes sense,

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Speaker 1: and why protecting their habitat is really another way of

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Speaker 1: protecting the communities that live within these areas is and

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Speaker 1: helping with climate resilience and dealing with floods and storms

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Speaker 1: and droughts and wildfires and all the rest of that.

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Speaker 1: The healthier your ecosystem, the better able you are to

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Speaker 1: withstand some of the impacts from climate change.

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Speaker 4: So all of this now is.

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Speaker 1: Going to be debated and argued, but it's sure scenes clear,

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Speaker 1: and we'll know more when we see whoever is named

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Speaker 1: as the Secretary of Interior. You know, protection for species

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Speaker 1: which has been not working out very well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're still losing an awful lot of habitat every year

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Speaker 1: necessary for protecting these species. You know, look like that

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Speaker 1: trend line is also going to be in the negative

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Speaker 1: as well. States again can step up if they're willing

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Speaker 1: to and do a lot more of this land conservation work,

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Speaker 1: but you know, they're also under a lot of political

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Speaker 1: stress from their constituents to open up public lands for

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Speaker 1: even further extraction and development. So right now, it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty hazy picture, I would say for the future of

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Speaker 1: a lot of these species. That are really just clinging

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Speaker 1: to existence and rely on government efforts to turn the

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Speaker 1: trend of extinction around into a more positive direction.

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Speaker 2: And the Paris Climate Accord, there's no doubt we're out

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Speaker 2: of that now right.

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Speaker 1: In fact, what I read is that the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: is going to try to argue, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: how they're going to do this through some kind of

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Speaker 1: executive order. I assume they're going to try to make

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Speaker 1: the case that the Paris Agreement really was a treaty

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Speaker 1: that should have been subjected to Senate ratification, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to try to prevent any future administration from re

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Speaker 1: entering the Paris Agreement the way the Biden administration did. Now,

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Speaker 1: whether they're going to be successful with that or not,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Never been done, but it sounds like

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Speaker 1: not only will they withdraw from Paris, they're going to

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Speaker 1: try to slam the door and lock it.

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Speaker 2: They may not be looking toward the future as far

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Speaker 2: as the environment is concerned, but they're certainly looking toward

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Speaker 2: the future as far as the Paris Accord is concerned.

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Speaker 2: And Pat what do you think of the appointment of

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Speaker 2: Lee Zelden as head of the EPA.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it could have been worse. You know, he's not

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Speaker 1: Scott through it. Yeah, that's the best I can say

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Speaker 1: is it could have been worse. His track record has

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Speaker 1: a couple of sort of moderating effects. I would say,

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Speaker 1: First of all, he was instrumental in getting federal support

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Speaker 1: for cleaning up Long Island Sound, which of course is

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Speaker 1: affected by nutrient pollution the way a lot of estuaries

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Speaker 1: and coastal waters are. And he's also gone on record

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Speaker 1: as strongly supporting regulation of pea fox, you know, these

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Speaker 1: forever chemicals, and some of the environmental groups that have

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Speaker 1: tried to work with him have said he's at least

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Speaker 1: someone you can talk to about these things. But the

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Speaker 1: point is he's going to be under the thumb of

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Speaker 1: the White House. His mandate is crystal clear.

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Speaker 4: I want you to start.

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Speaker 1: Rolling back all of these Biden rules dealing with climate change,

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Speaker 1: and beyond that, you know, any rules that aren't justified

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Speaker 1: by their economics according to However, the Trump administration decides

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Speaker 1: to evaluate that question, and certainly where rules are under

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Speaker 1: attack from major economic interests in the industry, the National

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Speaker 1: Association of home Builders has been very critical of federal regulations.

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Speaker 1: The Chamber of Commerce is the same. So whenever you

438
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: have a lot of sort of Republican opposition to EPA rules,

439
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: I think Zelden is going to be under tremendous pressure to,

440
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: if not outright repeal them, certainly not add new protections

441
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: that have that kind of opposition to them. The thing

442
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: about Zelden is he has no experience whatsoever with agencies

443
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: like EPA. It's an incredibly complicated agency with over twenty

444
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: statutes that it administers, each one of which is fiendishly

445
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: complicated with science and technology. So he alone can't really

446
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: manage all of that. What's going to be key is

447
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: who does he put into the key positions, the assistant administrators,

448
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: the general Council, That level of the agency is the

449
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: working level of the agency. And of course Trump has

450
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: also announced that he's going to go after civil servant

451
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: with what's called Schedule F, which is a new designation

452
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: of employees of the federal government that he's going to

453
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: try to claim are really, you know, political appointees that

454
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: can be terminated at will without cause. That's going to

455
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: be yet another big fight. Does he actually have the

456
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: constitutional authority to do that? But just the idea that

457
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: part of the game plan for the Trump administration this

458
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: time around is to go after some of these really

459
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: senior career professionals that know the real details of the

460
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: programs that they been administering for years and.

461
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 4: Decades in some cases.

462
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: To think that you would eliminate that brain power from

463
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: the federal government is really quite scary.

464
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: I suppose we'll have to wait and see how many

465
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: of these plans Trump can actually get through. Thanks so

466
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: much as always, Pat. That's Professor Pat Parento of the

467
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 2: Vermont Law and Graduate School. Back in February, the murder

468
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: of twenty two year old Georgia nursing student Lake in Hope, Riley,

469
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: became a flashpoint in the national immigration debate because the

470
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: man accused of killing her was a Venezuelan citizen who

471
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: entered the US illegally in twenty twenty two.

472
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: He was an illegal immigrant. He was an illegal migrant,

473
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 3: and he shouldn't have been in our country.

474
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: Jose Ebara is charged with ten counts, including malice, murder,

475
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: felony murder, and kidnapping. Jury selection in his trial was

476
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: set to begin today, but Abara, in an unusual move

477
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: for a murder defendant, waived his right to a jury trial,

478
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: meaning his case will be heard and decided by a judge.

479
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: Joining me is Lauren Johnson Norris, a criminal defense attorney

480
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: in California. Lauren, this is a murder case that most

481
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: people in the country know about because it became this

482
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: flashpoint in the debate over immigration. So a lot of

483
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: eyes are on the trial.

484
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it occurred in the kinds historically in this

485
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 5: country where folks are focused on the big influx of immigrants,

486
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 5: some undocumented immigrants, folks who came into the country without status,

487
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 5: and so it's become a big political point in this country,

488
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 5: not just what we've seen from this recent election, but

489
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 5: also in the sort of rhetoric and what's going on

490
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 5: in Washington, DC and the bills that have been created

491
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 5: to address immigration. So I think unfortunately for the family

492
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 5: who seems to disfavor this type of rhetoric around the

493
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 5: loss of their child, I don't blame them. Unfortunately, it

494
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 5: has become this contentious point for many and has received

495
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 5: a lot of publicity.

496
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: What are the charges against Bara It seems like they're

497
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: pretty broad.

498
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they've listed a number of charges everything from

499
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 5: kidnapping with bodily injury, aggravated battery, aggravated assault with the

500
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 5: intent to rape, obstructing and hindering a person making an

501
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 5: emergency telephone call, and tampering with evidence. So things that

502
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 5: had to do with interfering with for nine one one

503
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 5: call to even hiding or concealing the jacket and gloves

504
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 5: that Yborrow was wearing. So all of that they've rolled into. Ultimately,

505
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 5: the grand jury came back with these charges.

506
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: Is it surprising that prosecutors didn't seek the death penalty

507
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: in this high profile case.

508
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 5: I guess I'm a little surprised that they didn't seek

509
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 5: it because you know, it's available. At the same time,

510
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 5: it can be harder to obtain a death verdict, and

511
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 5: I suspect that they just wanted to make sure that

512
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 5: they got the verdict.

513
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: The defense tried several things before trial. One they tried

514
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: to get the trial moved out out of Athens, Georgia.

515
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: I mean, would that have made a difference. This case

516
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: was nationally known, right.

517
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 5: That's a tough one because in the community itself, I'm

518
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 5: sure there were heightened emotions and inflamed and enraged feelings

519
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 5: around this case that happened. You know, at the university

520
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 5: in a place where people just can really you know,

521
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 5: empathize and feel like it's so close to home. So

522
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 5: I do understand why the defense sought to move the case.

523
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 5: But point taken, if a case is national news and

524
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 5: folks are familiar with it, they may share those same

525
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 5: feelings even in another county, So I'm not sure it

526
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 5: make that big a difference.

527
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: The defense tried to get some evidence suppressed, for example,

528
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: cell phone evidence.

529
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, it seems like they sought to suppress evidence based

530
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 5: on the acid davits that were submitted to the court

531
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: for the search warrants. That's one way that they try

532
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 5: to do the press evidence, and the court ultimately said

533
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 5: that there weren't any problems with those search warrants and

534
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 5: kind of threw that theory out. They also went into

535
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 5: his apartment under what we call exigence circumstances to see,

536
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 5: you know, if someone is a tremendous danger to society

537
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 5: and could be actively hurting people right now, there's an

538
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 5: emergency in their home. The police do have the ability

539
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 5: to go in for those emergency type circumstances, and that

540
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 5: is where they ultimately arrested him. And I believe obtained

541
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 5: the cell phone evidence, so those efforts also were unsuccessful.

542
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 5: That evidence is coming in a trial.

543
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: I'm wondering how strong the DNA evidence is because apparently

544
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: it didn't exclude the defendant, but also didn't exclude another

545
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: known individual associated with the case.

546
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 5: Well, it's really interesting that there's identified a potential other

547
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 5: known individual.

548
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day.

549
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 5: Why was this individual Ibarra's DNA under the fingernails of

550
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 5: the decedent. I mean, that just doesn't otherwise make sense

551
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 5: unless there's a theory that there's some other person involved

552
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 5: in the homicide. And I think that is strong enough

553
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 5: identifying his DNA under her fingernails for the prosecution to

554
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 5: go forward with a theory that he's the guy that

555
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 5: did it. We don't know the details about another person's DNA,

556
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 5: what contacts she had with other people, where that DNA

557
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 5: was located and why. But the fact that Abar was

558
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 5: a stranger to her, and ultimately they found all the

559
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 5: other evidence that corroborates the charges, I think underscores how

560
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 5: important that DNA evidence will be for the prosecutors going forward.

561
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 2: What other evidence do the prosecutors have that you know of?

562
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 5: I understand there is a fingerprint that was found on

563
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 5: her cell phones, which would corroborate the charge that he

564
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 5: interfered with her ability to call nine to one pint one.

565
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 5: They also located gloves, there's some surveillance video that identified

566
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 5: him outside of another person's apartment, where they added the

567
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 5: peeping tom charge that involves him, And what they will

568
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 5: argue is that he was in the area looking, you know,

569
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 5: to attack someone, and all of that evidence together, I

570
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 5: think is extraordinarily strong case for prosecuting this homicide.

571
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: The defense tried to separate out the peeping tom charge.

572
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 2: Explain how that fits in here?

573
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 5: Sure, So the defense tried to separate it out because

574
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 5: anytime that there are allegations that are you know, otherwise inflammatory,

575
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 5: I mean, listen, nothing is more inflammatory than an attempted

576
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 5: rape and murder. But the idea that he was lurking

577
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 5: around the neighborhood looking into women's windows suggests that this

578
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 5: was my he was looking for the opportunity to perpetrate

579
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 5: on a woman, and it's trying to keep that separate

580
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 5: ultimately would keep that evidence from being considered in the

581
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 5: death of lacoln Riley. At the same time, it tells

582
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 5: sort of the area of the case from the prosecution's

583
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 5: point of view, how this crime of opportunity ultimately resulted

584
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 5: in his tragic consequences.

585
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: There seems to be a lot of evidence against it. Bara,

586
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: do you see a defense here?

587
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 5: It's a hard sell, And you know, I think the

588
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 5: defense probably recognizes that the case is inflammatory, the case

589
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 5: is horrible, and at the end of the day, a

590
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 5: jury would not necessarily look at this in any sympathetic

591
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 5: life for this defendant. Just why I think they've gone

592
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 5: the way of a bench trial looking for I wouldn't

593
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 5: say technicalities, but really questions about the law and whether

594
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 5: or not each and every element can be proven beyond

595
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 5: a reasonable doubt. Believe a judge is in a better

596
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 5: position to make those calls.

597
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: There aren't many high profile murder cases where the defendant

598
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: chooses a judge over a jury. Explain the different factors

599
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: that go into that decision.

600
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a great question. So we tend to think

601
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 5: as defense lawyers that even the possibility that one juror

602
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 5: out of the twelve may vote not guilty to potentially

603
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 5: hang the jury, leaving the case in a status where

604
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 5: it may get dismissed or we tried. Giving the opportunity

605
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 5: to see the evidence ahead of time ties the case. Again,

606
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 5: we're always hoping, if you know, if there's one juror

607
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 5: who may say not too acquit, that they may persuade

608
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 5: other jurors. There's just a lot of hope the odds

609
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 5: are better with a jury, and so traditionally that's how

610
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 5: defense lawyers think. We almost always exercise the right to

611
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 5: a jury trial. But the question becomes, in what cases

612
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 5: would it be potentially about strategy to take that in

613
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 5: front of a judge, And my experience, that's where there

614
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 5: are legal questions that are harder for jurors to wrap

615
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 5: their heads around in terms of arguments about the law

616
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 5: the evidence. They also ran these motions in front of

617
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 5: this judge, and so the judge knows that the prosecution

618
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 5: took efforts even if the judge denied the suppression motion,

619
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 5: knows about the suppression motion and may consider their lanes

620
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 5: and efforts that the prosecution took to speek to convict

621
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 5: here where a jury would never know about that, and

622
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 5: so there just may be reasons ultimately that the defense

623
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 5: is strategizing the judges in a better position to hear

624
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 5: the technical details of the case that they bring forward

625
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 5: in a jury would because the jury doesn't have that

626
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 5: legal experience, presumably.

627
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: Prosecutors don't have to put forward motive. But do you

628
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: think they will put forward motive because the grand jury

629
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: came back and said it was I guess an attempted rate.

630
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 5: Well, it looks like that's the theory of the case

631
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 5: and part of the charges here, and there's likely physical

632
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 5: evidence that supports that. The fact that also he was

633
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 5: looking in another woman's apartment window seems to stir in

634
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 5: us kind of an understanding of that might be what

635
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 5: was going on here. They don't need to put forth

636
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 5: a motive, but I think the average person could see

637
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 5: why this occurred, and I think that's important as we

638
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 5: talk about what we need to do as a community

639
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 5: to focus on the protection of women and why these

640
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 5: cases are important to prosecute, also important to get to

641
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 5: the truth of and understand why this is happening. I

642
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 5: feel badly for the family that their loss of their

643
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 5: daughter got thrown into the middle of a national immigration debate.

644
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 5: We do know from looking at the studies that ultimately

645
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: undocumented immigrants are arrested at less than half of the

646
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 5: rate of native born US citizens for things like violent crimes,

647
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 5: and a quarter of that rate for property crimes. And

648
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 5: so the fact that this morphed into a conversation about

649
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 5: immigration instead of a conversation about violence against women, I

650
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 5: think is just unfortunate. I think there are greater conversations

651
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 5: we could have as a community and as a society

652
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 5: about this tragic case and what women deserve. They deserve

653
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 5: to be able to run through a park safely at

654
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 5: their university without facing risk of harm, potential rape and death.

655
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 5: And I hope we can continue as a community to

656
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 5: talk about that more.

657
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: Thanks Lauren. That's criminal defense attorney Lauren Johnson Norris, and

658
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Speaker 2: that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show.

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Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

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Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jim Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg