1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Robert Evans here and for the last two years, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards listeners have funded the Portland Diaper Bank, 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: which provides diapers for low income families. Uh. Last year 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: y'all raised more than twenty one thousand dollars, which was 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: able to purchase one point one million diapers for children 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: and families in need in one um. And this year 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: we're trying to get dollars raised for the Portland Diaper Bank, 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: which is going to allow us to help even more kids. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: So UM, if you want to help, you can go 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: to bTB fundraiser for pd X Diaper Bank at go 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: fund me. Just type and go fund me b TB 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank. Again, that's go fund Me 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: bTB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank, or find the link 14 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: in the show notes. Thank you all. Let's go. Let's 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: start the podcast, So get off, let's move it. Robert, Sophie, 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: Robert Sophie, Robert Sophie, evens Toma Robert. This is Behind 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: the Bastards. It's a podcast. Hello Joe, I'm glad to 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: be on the podcast. This is the podcast of Behind 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: the Bastards where we talk about bad people, and today 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about the worst people broadly speaking, in the 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: world in history, which are collectively all of the people 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: who have participated in are directly enabled genocide. Um yea 23 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: more to the point, Joe, we're talking. There was an 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: episode of our sister podcast it could happen here. Maybe 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: cousin podcast is more accurate. Um, maybe behind the Bastards 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: is like the uncle. I don't know, I don't depending 27 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: on what state you're from, that's all of those things. 28 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is the uncle by marriage could happen here. Yeah, 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: that sounds right anyway. I made a comment about the 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: fact that because we were talking about anarchism and stuff 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: and and what kind of things the state makes possible 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: in what kind of things are just human nature? And 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: I made a comment that like, genocide is not something 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: you need a state or like a nation for. It's 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: just like a thing that people have always done, and 36 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: that basically, as long as we have evidence of people 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: organizing in any capacity, we have evidence of genocide. And 38 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: um some folks got upset about that. There were some 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: people who really questioned that, and because I had not 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: actually provided any kind of evidence, it's understandable that people 41 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: will be like, because it is. It is difficult, I 42 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: think if you haven't thought about this, to imagine like 43 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: prehistoric human beings engaging in organized genocide. Um, but they 44 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: totally did. Yeah, I think it's something that I mean, 45 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: of course, having an organized state certainly will make that easier. 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: It does help. Yes, I think it's something we're like. 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a grad student in holocaust and genocide studies, um, 48 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: and I I think it's something that people can get 49 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: lodged in their head. Is when they see or hear 50 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: the were genocide, they immediately think of like death camps 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: and things like that, which of course wouldn't happen without 52 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: a state structure, right, I mean you would imagine. So 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: I think it might be best, honestly, like, given the 54 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: fact that we are recording this the week of the 55 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: Valdi shootings, it might be best to think about this 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: the way it's reasonable to think about mass killings where um, 57 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: there whether or not guns are available, there will absolutely 58 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: be mass killings and a wide variety of societies. And 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: the evidence for this is that many societies where guns 60 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: are not available have mass killings. The easy availability of 61 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: guns does mean those killings you're number one, more frequent. 62 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: Number two tend to kill more people. Um, not always, 63 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: but generally speaking. And it's the same thing with like genocide. 64 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: Genocide prior to the state existed, but you can get 65 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: a lot nastier with it when you have the apparatus 66 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: of a centralized state. Of course. It's it's like, um, 67 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: why World War One was so horrific. Um, you know, 68 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: we we revolutionize the mechanisms of mass murder to to 69 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: this human meat. It's it's not like the wars that 70 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: happened before then. We're not as horrific in their day. 71 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: We just we just continued to surpass our previous human 72 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: records with their own violence. Yeah. Anyway, we're doing Genocide 73 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: Week this week. Joe Joe Casabian, co host of The 74 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Lions Led by Donkeys podcast. Um, and you are also uh, 75 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: like uh an academic on an academic capacity specialized in genocide. 76 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: Like you've got a grad degree and ship, unlike me 77 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: who just reads books about UM. So you have a 78 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: degree of like formal knowledge here. Uh that is is 79 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: beyond certainly like what I have in this area, which 80 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: I think I hope will be hopeful because we'll be 81 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: getting into this kind of meandered a bit in episode one. 82 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: We will primarily be talking about kind of the prehistoric 83 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: roots of genocide and then sort of the first what 84 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: what what what? At least one scholar will argues like 85 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: the first documented genocide UM in in history. And after 86 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: that we're going to be talking more about what makes 87 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: people cape of committing genocide, like what's actually going on 88 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: that that pushes people to it? Because um, some of 89 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: this is just based on my continual frustration of the 90 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: description of like, you know, the perpetrators of the Holocaust 91 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: is like being brainwashed or taken over by a mania. 92 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: That's generally not what happens. But we're getting ahead of 93 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: ourselves here. Yeah, yeah, oh, I love that argument. It's 94 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: it's it's one of my favorites. We we will be 95 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: chatting about that in part too, But right now, I 96 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: want to talk about probably the earliest evidence that exists 97 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: in history of an act of genocide UM. It was 98 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: discovered on the banks of Kenya's Lake Turkana in two 99 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: thousand twelve. It is a mass grave, one which dates 100 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: back roughly ten thousand years to about eight thousand BC. 101 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: It is filled with women, children, and men, both young 102 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: and old. Some of them had school shattered by blunt weapons. 103 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: Others had been repeatedly pierced by some form of projectile. 104 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: One woman was a pregnant woman who appeared to have 105 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: her hands bound and have been beaten before her execution. Um. 106 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: It looks very much like mass graves you would find 107 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: from basically every act of genocide ever committed sense right, 108 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: including people with their hands bound who were executed. UM, 109 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: particularly like women and children who were executed with their 110 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: hands bound. Uh. Marta Mirazon Lar of the University of 111 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: Cambridge notes that the injuries discovered quote shocked for their mercilessness, 112 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: but that quote what we see at the prehistoric side 113 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: of Nataruk is no different from the fight's wars and 114 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: conquests that shaped so much of our history. And again, 115 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: what's interesting to me kind of in the context of 116 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: where this line of thoughts started for for us and 117 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: the comments I added another podcast, is that this is 118 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: this occurs pre the development of anything we would recognize 119 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: as a state really anywhere in the world. This is 120 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: like eight thousand eight BC is roughly when this is 121 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: thought to have when the killings that these graves were 122 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: resulted or resulted from we're thought to have occurred depending 123 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: on you know, there's some wiggle room as to win 124 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: the first state arose, right, none of these like thea 125 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: exact but broadly speaking somewhere around in Mesopotamia in Egypt, 126 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: like in that kind of ballpark is when we get 127 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: our first like city and you know how much you 128 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: how much you kind of draw line to the first 129 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: city and like whether you con consider that like a 130 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: proper state is also a little bit because none of this, 131 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: like they didn't just pick a day to be like, 132 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: well now we have states, now human beings existing states, right, 133 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: people started like living. You know, this all occurred kind 134 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: of gradually. Um, So precision isn't possible. But these were 135 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: definitely whatever happened in that mass graven lake Turkana was 136 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: not organized by anything we would recognize as like a 137 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: mass political entity that calls itself a nation, right like 138 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: that that was not a factor in this. Um. People 139 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: weren't doing that yet. Um. The people's of that part 140 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: of Kenya and roughly eight thousand BC were hunter gatherers, 141 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: or to be more specific, they were actually fisher foragers, 142 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: not really like hunting in a big deal, because again 143 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: there's it was a wet area at this point. It's 144 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: very dry today, but it was there were a lot 145 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: of like lakes and rivers that no longer exist in 146 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: the area UM Today. The individuals who lived there and 147 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: who were found in that mass grave are known as 148 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: the natar Uk people UM, and they're believed to have 149 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: roamed and made connections as far afield as the Nile 150 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: Valley and the Maghreb Uh. It's worth noting that in 151 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: the period they were killed, the Sahara was green. It 152 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: was not yet a desert. For an example, like how 153 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: fucking old this is? Like you could you could grow 154 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: things in the Sahara UM. So yeah. Um. This also 155 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: probably made travel simpler, which is why folks who were 156 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: far away could make it to natar Uck Um. Now, 157 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: we don't know who committed the massacre of these people, 158 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: but as this right up from the Smithsonian magazine makes clear, 159 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: it was done with great intention. The remains were submerged 160 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: in a lagoon after they were killed, which helped preserve 161 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: them and may suggest that the people who killed them 162 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: wanted to hide what they had done. Um. You know, 163 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: maybe there was some ritual thing there. We don't really know, um, 164 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: but it don't looked like other graves that had been 165 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: found in the area at the time. Hide from who, 166 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: yeah exactly quote uh, it's not clear that anyone was 167 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: spared at the not A Rock massacre. Of the twenty 168 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: seven individuals found, eight were male and eight female, with 169 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: five adults of unknown gender. The site also contained the 170 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: partial remains of six children. Twelve of the skeletons were 171 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: in a relatively complete state. Ten of those showed very 172 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: clear evidence that they had met a violent end. Um. 173 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: In the paper, the researchers described quote extreme blunt force, 174 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: trauma to crania and cheekbones, broken hands, knees and ribs, 175 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: arrow allegiance to the neck, and stone projectile tips lodged 176 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: in the skull and thorax of two men. Four of them, 177 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: including a late term pregnant women, appear to have had 178 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: their hands bound. Um. It's noted by the archaeologists that 179 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: the killers carried weapons that would not have been used 180 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: for hunting and fishing, so that this was These were 181 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: not people like using kind of the tools that they 182 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: used for other stuff for violence. These were people who 183 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: brought special things meant to kill human beings UM. Mirazon 184 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Lar notes that there were a number of like close 185 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: proximity weapons like knives UM, and that this is kind 186 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: of a hallmark of intergroup conflict, as was the brutality 187 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: of the killings right um like it suggests a degree 188 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: of like uh ferocity UM. The use of these weapons, 189 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: Laar notes also suggests premeditation and planning. She goes on 190 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: to suggest that given the resources employed, the people of 191 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: Natarup were likely massacred for their own resources. Right. This 192 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: was not like a simple thing for people in this 193 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: period to get together the kind of equipment they used 194 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: for this. UM, Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna 195 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: say that tracks. Um. What's unique is even in situations 196 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: where and we'll we'll talk about this more. I'm sure 197 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: when we get the perpetrators and there and their motivations 198 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: is um, even mass atrocity crimes or mass murders UM 199 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: are are done. Is normally like women and children are taken, 200 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: especially during this time period for very obvious reasons. I 201 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: won't go into UM. And the men are killed because 202 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: with the men is the identity of of of the area. 203 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: But the reason why you're killing them is to take 204 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: their ship. Yes, so that all that all makes perfect 205 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: sense to me in my very very broken mind. Yeah. Yeah, 206 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: but but it does, like I think the thing that's 207 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: like this is not this does not look purely like 208 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: you have two groups who have like a like a 209 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: conflict over over something like this is there's a lot 210 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: of evidence of that kind of violence, and it does 211 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: not look quite like this. Like there's a reason why 212 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: this is noted as different. Again, the killing of like 213 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: women and and and children, pregnant people, the fact that 214 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: like they were kids, like people were bound and executed, 215 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: that all looks um again, just like it's it's more 216 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: complete than the kind of violence that is, I guess 217 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: you'd say, more normal around people in between people in 218 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: this period. Even if you measure that against you know, 219 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: the definitions would come however, many thousands of years later. 220 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: That that hits it to a t. Yeah, yeah, And 221 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: that that's the point that like Mirizon Lar makes is 222 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: that um, her exact quote is this shows that two 223 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: of the conditions associated with warfare among settled societies, control 224 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: of territory and resources, were probably the same for hunter gathers, 225 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: and that we have underestimated their role in prehistory. Again, 226 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: just the idea that like genocide uh goes back quite 227 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: a bit. And that also, I mean one of the 228 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: things that it is worth noting too, because when we 229 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: think about genocide in a modern context, it's always nearly 230 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: always framed as motivated by racism um. And it's like, 231 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: obviously racism has played a significant role in many genocides, um, 232 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: but just as as significant a role as pure venal greed, 233 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: which we'll be talking about more in Part two. But 234 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: like people want ship and that's a big part of 235 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: why they do a genocide, and it's that goes back 236 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: further than states UM. Obviously. I think one of the 237 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: things that's I kind of thought about reading about this 238 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: case is the mass graves recently uncovered parts of Ukraine, 239 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: like Buka, and the fact that the killing of civilians 240 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: who's hands were bound like that was one of the 241 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: things that I thought of those pictures I saw of 242 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: like corpses on the road with their hands bound, and 243 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: then ten thousand years ago you have dead people with 244 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: their hands bound in a mass grave outside of lake 245 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: in Kenya. UM. These archaeologists saying it was probably because 246 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: they wanted resources, and the Russian soldiers in buccus stealing 247 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: every luxury item that that isn't nailed down, you know, 248 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 1: like this is uh what people do. Yeah, specifically it's 249 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: what I mean, especially in Kenya, it's extra state forces 250 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: or I guess paramilitary forces, tribal military forces. Yeah, I 251 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: mean it's still happening. And with the Boko Haramas, I 252 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: think it's yeah, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, people are pretty consistent. 253 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: You gotta give us that, um, unfortunately painfully depressingly consistent. Yeah. Yeah. 254 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: And obviously I think there's some people who might have 255 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: some objections here. Um, because nobody doubts that ancient folks 256 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: murdered each other in war. Um, that's pretty pretty widely accepted. 257 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: But we consider genocide to be kind of going beyond that. 258 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: You know, every king or warlord who like killed a 259 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: shipload of people isn't necessarily considered like a committer of genocide. 260 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: I think there's even a lot of debate about like 261 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: whether or not you would consider like Genghis Khan like 262 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: is a lot like it's the sacking of a city 263 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: for the purposes he did the same as like the 264 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: extermination of a of a race, and that's a that's 265 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: a debatable point. So I think if we're gonna have 266 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: a productive point productive talk about like genocide in an 267 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: ancient context, we're gonna need to leap forward a bit 268 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: to something that you, uh, spoilered a little bit. Spoiler 269 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: is the wrong term for this, um, the definition of genocide. 270 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: Spoiler alerts spoiler exactly. Yeah, that's yeah, that's He's the 271 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: He's the single man with whom that word has its 272 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: like linguistic origins. Um Limpcoln was a Holocaust survivor Um 273 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: and he was an extremely delicated, dead cated, an intelligent man, 274 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: and his crusade too to start what became like not 275 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: just the concept of genocide as like a legal term, 276 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: but the the Genocide Convention actually started way before the 277 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: Holocaust got going in nineteen thirty three, which is like 278 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: the year the Nazis took power. So Lincoln, like I 279 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: was aware of what was coming, you know, like he was, 280 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: I mean he he had actually started his research about 281 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: two decades before then. He was in law school, I 282 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: believe the same in Poland, Um, when the the trial 283 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: of Sagamantelerian was going on in Berlin. Yeah, to Leirian 284 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: being the Turkish or no the Tolerian being the Armenian 285 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: who assassinated one of the Turkish officials who was responsible 286 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: for organizing the Armenian genocide. Yeah, he shot Talat Pasha 287 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: and broad daylight in Berlin, UM with the sole purpose 288 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: of going on trial admitting that he killed him and 289 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: using it as a pulpit to talk about the genocide, 290 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: which he successfully did day with Yeah, he's a cool dude. 291 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: Yeah he rocks. Yeah. UM and Lemkin was watching this 292 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: on well, reading it unfolding the newspaper, and he asked 293 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: one of his professors, like, how a state could get 294 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: away with doing this? Um? And why isn't more Turkish 295 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: authorities on trial because none of them would ever stand trial. Uh. 296 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: And his and his professor effectively believe in the in 297 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: the sovereign idea that a sovereign could do with its 298 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: people as they pleased and it wasn't any other states 299 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: to tell them what to do. Um. And he immediately believed, 300 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: I believe this is a nineteen something like that. He's like, 301 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't seem right to me. So by the time 302 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: the Holocaust started and his family died in the Holocaust, UM, 303 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: he had studied the Armenian genocide, the genocide of the 304 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: natives in North America. Uh and uh He's like, this 305 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: is you know, history doesn't repeat itself, but often fucking rhymes, 306 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's probably worth noting here too. We're 307 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: we're getting a field from the ancient days. But in 308 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: the same way that like limp Can started thinking about 309 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: what a genocide was and started like, you know, attempting 310 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: to get other people to talk about this as it like, 311 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: as a crime and to kind of change attitudes about 312 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: like that. Um, he was motivated and inspired by the 313 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: same things that in a very different way, we're motivating 314 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: and inspirational to Hitler, because Hitler also studied the genocide 315 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: of the Native Americans and was like, oh, this seems cool, Um, 316 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: this seems like a good way to get a bunch 317 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: of land. And also Hitler was directly inspired by the 318 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: genocide of the Armenians. I think his exact quote was 319 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: like people were asking him like this is and this 320 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: is I think from his table talk. But he was 321 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: being asked by one of his officials like are we 322 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: not going to get in trouble for this? And he 323 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: was like, well, shit, who remembers the Armenians. Yeah, and 324 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: and not to mention they're only um, I mean during 325 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: World War One, the German Empire had in the Ottoman Empire. Yes, ironically, 326 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: one of them is the the main prime very resource 327 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: for pictures about the Armenian genocide because he took pictures 328 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: of it and smuggled them out. Yeah. And and then 329 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: the German Empire committed genocide and Namibia a couple of 330 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: years before that. Yeah yeah, yeah, Which we'll we'll talk 331 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: about all of this in more detail at some point, 332 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: but let's talk about the definition of genocide because people 333 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: don't you know, Limpcoln's foresight is not widely appreciated, and 334 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: it is not until nineteen forty four, um that it 335 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: starts to like the kind of the stuff he's talking about, 336 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: starts to gain more ground. And that's also the year 337 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: that he proposes the term genocide to describe the destruction 338 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: of a nation or ethnic group. Um. And this is 339 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: one of those Greek Latin hodgepodge is that I think 340 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: frustrates some linguistic nerds. Here he basically took the Greek 341 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: word genos for race or tribe, and he merged it 342 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: with Latin's side which obviously means killing. I think everyone 343 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: knows that bit of latin. Um. So because of his 344 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: tireless work, on December eleventh, ninety six, the United Nations 345 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: General Assembly passed a resolution declaring genocide is the denial 346 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: of the right of existence of entire human groups. Many 347 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: instances of such crimes have occurred when racial, religious, political, 348 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: or other groups have been destroyed entirely or in part. Um. 349 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: Now that the definition of genocide that's kind of given 350 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: there in that and this is the resolution is immediately challenged. UM. 351 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: A number of nations, including the USSR, disliked the inclusion 352 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: of political groups as victims of genocide for reasons that 353 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: should be obvious, right, And that wording not that the 354 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: USSR is the only state that killed a bunch of 355 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,719 Speaker 1: political groups. But yeah, the wording is was eventually dropped. Um. 356 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: The argument was that the terms etymology excluded those groups 357 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: because I mean and and that's not in a I 358 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: think it's wrong, but that's not inaccurate, right, Like the 359 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: word genocide does imply racial or national groups. UM. So 360 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: it's not hard to see why, like a number of 361 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: states were concerned about this. For example, was the killing 362 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: of the Russian nobility a genocide. And this is an 363 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: area in which like, well, yeah, I think it actually 364 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: would be wrong to say that, like killing the royal 365 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: family of Russia was a genocide. That seems weird to me. Um, 366 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: But but like the killing is the killing of like 367 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian you know, starvation genocide, which was justified as 368 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: the killing of like rich peasants. Is that a genocide? Sure, 369 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: that's absolutely a genocide, and ironically, according to Raphael Imkin, 370 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: it sure is. Yes, yes, um, so yeah, I mean 371 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: it's obviously, like I think we can all agree how 372 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: exactly to separate other mass killings from genocide is important 373 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: because not all mass killings are the same, and we 374 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: shouldn't call all of them genocides. But also I think 375 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: it's also worth saying that like, yeah, political groups being 376 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: massacred can absolutely be a genocide. And I mean that 377 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: wasn't even the only thing that got stripped out of there. 378 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: They also got rid of like then, umh Lemkin wrote 379 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: about the concept of genocidal settler colonialism and genocidal slavery, yes, 380 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: as well as assimilation as being a form of cultural genocide. Um. 381 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: You know, like famously in North America, there was the 382 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: saying kill the Indians saved child, which we all rightfully 383 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: accept now as genocide. But yeah, well and then let 384 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: Limpkin had that on there and again the US, the 385 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: UK and the USSR. I was like, we'll pump the 386 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: brakes somebow. None of all of the states that were 387 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: responsible for like winning World War two also had vested 388 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: interests in certain things not being called genocide because spoilers, 389 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: they had all done genocides. As someone who holds a 390 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: lot of stock in big genocide, I have a problem 391 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: with Stephanie. Yeah ah man though it is a good 392 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: time to be invested in genocide. Wow, doing better than Tesla. 393 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: To be fair, I have a feeling that the white 394 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: South Africa also holds stuck in the yea. UM. So 395 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: when it comes to how we're going to define genocide 396 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: for this UM, at least my proposition show UM. I 397 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: want to go to scholar Irvan Staub And now Staub 398 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: is another Holocaust survivor UM and his he wrote a 399 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: really good book called UM The Origins of Evil UM, 400 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: which goes over kind of what inspired perpetrators in a 401 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: number of genocides. His book, in addition to talking about 402 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: like Rwanda and Cambodia, and obviously the Holocaust includes the 403 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: massacre of thousands, potentially tens of thousands of leftists in Argentina. 404 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: Um in his study of Genocide and group violence. I 405 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: like his book, and for our purposes, i'd like to suggest, 406 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: using his definition, quote, genocide means an attempt to us 407 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: exterminate a racial, ethnic, religious, cultural, or political group, either 408 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: directly through murder or indirectly by creating conditions that lead 409 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: to the group's destruction. Yeah. That that that that is 410 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: very very close. Um it's like a simplified version of 411 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: Lempkin's original. Yes, yes, and that's what that Staub says, 412 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: like starts with Limpkin and says like, I think that 413 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: what he was saying initially is is exactly right, and 414 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: that's how we should be talking about this. Um So, Yeah, 415 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: I think that's that's kind of where we're gonna go 416 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: here or what that that that's what when we talk 417 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: about genocide in this episode, that's more or less what 418 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: we mean. Um So. I think obviously there's a strong 419 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: case to be made for the Lake Turconom mass grave 420 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: as evidence of genocide based on this, even though we 421 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: clearly don't know the entire story there, um, but the 422 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: presence of pregnant women, the elderly, young kids um all 423 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: differentiates it from the kind of simple human on human 424 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: violence that has occurred since forever. Um. We don't know 425 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: exactly what happened, but we know that one armed group 426 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: and and archaeologists think it was the people who carried 427 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: out the genocide were from a distance away, right, Um, 428 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: Like that they had traveled to get there, wanted to 429 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: wipe out a different group of people, and that's that's 430 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: a genocide. Um. Yeah, that shows pretty clear intense, like 431 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: not taking the children or the women, which is very 432 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: common during crimes like this, pretty shows pretty specific intense 433 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: that these people would not can to you. Yes, uh. 434 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: And there are other cases of probable ancient genocide. Obviously, 435 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: all of them do lack the kind of context that 436 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: we need for it to be like as kind of 437 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: satisfying narratively, because there's just ship you don't know when 438 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: you're talking about stuff from this far back. Um. One 439 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: of the most uh, probably well known at least among archaeologists, 440 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: involves the Yamnia people who occupied the Eurasian step north 441 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: of the Black Sea between two and three thousand BC. Uh. 442 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: There were certainly states that existed in the world in 443 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: this period, but there were not in that area, right, Like, 444 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: there's no this is like kind of around like Ukraine, 445 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: Poland that area, there's not in three thousand BC. There's 446 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: not a Ukraine or a Poland. Right, there's not political 447 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: entities in any way we would recognize UM in this area. Uh. 448 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: So the Yamnia were an ethnic group who colonized large 449 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: swats of Europe and stages over a period of centuries. UM. 450 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: It's actually maybe even more accurate to kind of look 451 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: at them as like a collection of ethnic groups. They 452 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: were a culture, right. Um. This is all kind of 453 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: confusing when we talk about what we'll get into like 454 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: what archaeologists mean when they talk about like cultures here. Um. 455 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: But as the Omnia flowed through the continent, a number 456 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: of things changed dramatically and those parts of Europe. UM. 457 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: So we can we can see evidence of like these 458 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: people coming into the area, and we see very suddenly 459 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: that existing burial practices in the area change. A warrior 460 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: class appears, and like evidence of them in burials appears 461 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: when they had not existed before UM. And we find 462 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: more evidence of large numbers of people dying violent deaths. 463 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: Christian Christiansen from the University of Gothenburg, Sweden, UH tells 464 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: New Scientists quote, I've become concreasingly convinced that there must 465 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: have been a kind of genocide. Now again, there's not 466 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: like cities or states or empires in Europe, and in 467 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: this part of Europe, in this period, there's not written history, 468 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: So we're talking about like archaeologists tend to talk about 469 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: this in terms of like broad clashes between cultures. And 470 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: one of the things we see in this period around 471 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: It's BC is the violent replacement of what are called 472 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: the globular Amphora culture, which is again a group of 473 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: ethnic groups and people living in this region who are 474 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: defined by the way in which they make pottery, by 475 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: the corded wear culture, which is another type of pottery 476 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: and is associated with another like Again, because this is 477 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: so far ago, we don't have a lot of other content. 478 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: Must we must return to a pottery based culture. We 479 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: must become pottery based again. It would be funny to 480 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: think about like people six thousand years writing about like 481 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: the ziplock culture versus the UH the pyrex with a 482 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: little plastic thing on top culture. What culture is this? Oh? 483 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: You see he was in high school pottery class and 484 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: he made a very bad attempt to make a bong. 485 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: That was me. That was my culture. The water pipe 486 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: culture versus the drilling a hole in an apple and 487 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: putting in some tinfoil culture. This is the make a 488 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: small dent in the top of a popkin cult, puncture 489 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: in it. Oh. You know who else has culture? Joe? 490 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: Oh no, Uh, probably nobody. That's coming next the products 491 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: and services and support this podcast, Joe. They all come 492 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: from the by things. Sophie's not looking happy with me here. 493 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just not your best work. Yeah, that 494 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: never is. You know who didn't Actually I was gonna say, 495 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: you know who didn't benefit from a genocide? But you don't. 496 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: We really, we really don't. Both Taser and the Washington 497 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol have attempted to run ads on our network. 498 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: Fant What were they supposed to do? Uh? Don't you 499 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: want to, Fanta, Joe? I do. Here's some ads. Ah, 500 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: we're back, and we're talking about how Europeans are a 501 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: decadent and depraved people. Um, mainly because of beat sugar, 502 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: serious sugar. The sugar based sweeteners. Yeah, absolutely not use 503 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: corn syrup. Come on like a civilized people, and it 504 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: needs to be so thick that it just stands on 505 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: its own. If you cut the can away from the lakes, 506 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: why are we even flavoring ship? Just give kids entire 507 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: cans of pure corn syrup. Let him suck it out 508 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: and then smoke out of the cans. Actually, this is 509 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: why my life act is I I pull up to 510 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: the ethanol pumps. That's the that's just corn sugar for cars. 511 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: I do think it straight from the tap. Baby do 512 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: it all? Why Why isn't everything corn yet? That's my question. 513 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: A lot of things are corn, but why isn't everything? Um? 514 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: These are We are the corn culture. That is what 515 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: archaeologists will be calling us. This whole society rapidly degenerated 516 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: and turned into a corn cut, turned to do a 517 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: cord cup. Um. So yeah, we're talking about b c E. 518 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: The violent replacement of the globular Amphora culture with the 519 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: corded war culture, and the Omnia are kind of associated 520 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: with the cord war culture. This is all complicated archaeology here, 521 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna I'm gonna quote from a write up 522 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: in the Journal of anthropology and this is a specifically 523 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,239 Speaker 1: an article that's like looking at a mass grave from 524 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: this period where one culture is being replaced by another. 525 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: We sequence the genomes of fifteen skeletons from a five 526 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: thousand year old mass grave in Poland associated with the 527 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 1: globular Amphora culture. All individuals had been brutally killed by 528 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 1: blows to the head, but buried with great care. Genome 529 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: white analyzes demonstrate that this was a large extended family 530 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: and that the people who buried them knew them well. 531 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: Mothers are buried with their children and siblings next to 532 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: each other. From a population genetic viewpoint, the individuals are 533 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: clearly distinct from neighboring corded war groups because of their 534 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: lack of step related ancestry. Although the reason for the 535 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: massacre is unknown, it is possible that it was connected 536 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: to the expansion of courted where groups which may have 537 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: resulted in violent conflict and the fact that they're loved 538 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: ones got to them kind of suggests this was part 539 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: of a series of like raids and clashes that were 540 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: meant to wipe them out. That like this community was 541 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, attacked, killed found by their relatives as part 542 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: of like an ongoing struggle that eventually led to the 543 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: replacement of one group with another, you know, which is 544 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: pretty genocide. Yeah, I mean, I think um. Scott Strauss 545 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: wrote in his book Prevention on Genocide UM Prevention of Genocide, 546 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: which you can actually download for free at the U S. 547 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: Holocustomeral Museum website dope, but he said one of the 548 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: major genocile risk factors is a history of conflict within groups. 549 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: So uh yeah, that that tracks, especially if you're existing 550 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: all on like a step, fighting over the same resources offential, 551 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: and you're like, this would be a lot easier if 552 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: those people simply didn't exist. Boy, I have to say, 553 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: Joe that I do. I do. I'm happy that a 554 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: book with the title and uh thesis, how to Prevent 555 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: Genocide is available for free and not pay Walt, Yeah, 556 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: probably shouldn't pay all that, huh. I think. I think 557 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: something has to be said for academics that realized that, like, 558 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: nobody's gonna pay for our ship and if my and 559 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: if my field of study is how to prevent genocide, 560 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: perhaps this this work should be widely available. Um. So 561 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: further research by two separate teams, writing in Nature magazine 562 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fifteen, UH came to a came 563 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: to similar conclusions that an influx of herders from the 564 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: steps of what are now Russia and Ukraine replaced a 565 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: huge amount of the gene pool in central and western 566 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: Europe and around three thousand BC, really more like hundred 567 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: But you know, um, this coincided with the disappearance of 568 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: Neolithic pottery and burial styles, as well as other cultural 569 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: artifacts that had been seen earlier. I'm winning out those 570 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: last couple of things, the change in burials and the 571 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: change in artifacts, because again that's evidence of a genocide. 572 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: This culture is being wiped out. Um. Now. Part of 573 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,959 Speaker 1: why this has been controversial with scholars is that the 574 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: theories proposed now by Christiansen and others based on this 575 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: research are similar to some of the ideas of a 576 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: guy named Gustaf Cosina. UH. Cosina was an early twentieth 577 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: century archaeologist in Germany whose ideas were integral to the 578 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: formation of Nazi race science. UM. Now, obviously the Naya 579 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: are not Arians. They again would probably look more like 580 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: Slavs um, which the Nazis did not think. We're a 581 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: master race slip. But the Nazis bestowed like honorary arian 582 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: status on so many random groups of people, from Palestinians 583 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: to Armenians. Yes, I mean to to Tibet where they 584 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: like where a lot of Nazi race science started. Was 585 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: them like hanging out in these monasteries in Tibet and 586 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: being like these must be the ancient arians. Um, there's 587 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: a lot of just like us. Yeah, there's a lot 588 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: of Again, Nazis not great scientists, except with rockets. You 589 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: gotta give them, you gotta give them the rockets. I'm 590 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm starting to think, and Robert quickly if I'm wrong, 591 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: the guys who believed in eugenics. Eugenics might not be 592 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: the smartest people on Earth. No, No, they weren't good 593 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: at a lot of things. Um. But yeah, So this 594 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: is part of why, like it's been uh difficult to 595 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: to to kind of push this along. But it does 596 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: seem like there's a significant amount of scholarship that like, 597 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: again there's and this is not we're focusing on Europe 598 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: in all of this so far, just because I mean, 599 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: we started with Africa, but like that's where the majority 600 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: of the scholarship has happened. One has to assume all 601 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: throughout Asia all throughout the Middle East, Southeast Asia, other 602 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: parts of Africa, Latin America. You know, there's genocides all 603 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: over all throughout history in every part of the world. 604 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 1: It's like a thing that people do. We're just kind 605 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: of talking about what we've got some documentation of. Like 606 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: obviously there were genocides in Mesoamerica long before um, you know, uh, 607 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: the fourteen hundreds, and there were genocides and the Middle 608 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: East from the day that there were cities, um, like 609 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's just there's there's a positive positivist uh 610 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: train of thoughts in the field that says that, like 611 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: within genocide prevention that believes that, um, genocide is like 612 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: one of the natural states of man and uh, you 613 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: know in modern day you can work to prevent that, yes, hypothetically, 614 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: seeing how we seem to be very exceedingly bad at 615 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: doing that. Yeah, we're not good at preventing it. Um. Yeah, 616 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: it's probably worth acknowledging that, Like you are trying to 617 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: prevent something that we've been doing for forever, which is 618 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: always hard to do. It's like, yeah, preventing people from fighting, 619 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: you know, like we we were pretty good at Yeah. 620 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: And there's also of this, UM, this idea that it's 621 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: like okay, well, how can you prove that you prevented one? 622 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: Like how can you prove prove something that didn't happen? 623 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,919 Speaker 1: Like okay, well, what about these things would you rather 624 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: be wrong about? I mean, it's it is. It is 625 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: the same we talked about, like how to prevent mass 626 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: shootings um. And there's a bunch of different things on 627 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: the table when it comes to like what kind of 628 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: like social programs and like interventions can like stop kids 629 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: who might be on the path to being willing to 630 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: do something like that. One of the problems is that, well, 631 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: if you successfully like intervene and a kid doesn't decide 632 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: they want to do something like that, you never know, right, 633 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,439 Speaker 1: like like you don't get the data that like, oh 634 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: the fact that like this teacher you know, sat down 635 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: and talked with this kid stopped them from doing this 636 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: this fucked up thing, or stop them from going down 637 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: a path where they get on four Chan and get 638 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: radicalized to do this, or like we just don't get that, 639 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 1: which makes it harder to like develop good programs to 640 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: stop stuff like that. UM. That's one that's one thing 641 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: we need to steal from cops. And that's like because 642 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: I used to be a medic, so it was one 643 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: of those I worked the firefighters all the time, and 644 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: it's one of those things that like whenever there's not 645 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: a lot of fires, um, like, well we can cut 646 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: the budget from the fire department whenever they don't need 647 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: that money. But but like whenever you know, crime goes down, 648 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: it's never like, well, clearly we actually don't need that 649 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: many cops or cops at all. It's well, we need 650 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: to keep funding the cops because crime is down. Yeah, 651 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: but the answers always give those guys more money, just 652 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: like the answers to uh war in genocide or always 653 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: give the military's more money. Right. Yeah, It's like maybe 654 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, there's a there's a middle ground in 655 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: there somewhere we could try something a little different. Um yeah, 656 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. So at any rate, I think this 657 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 1: establishes that, like genocide, canon has existed outside the structure 658 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: of state violence. UM. Now, in Part two, we're going 659 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: to talk about some of the things that, presumably since 660 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: time and memorial, have made individual humans capable of taking 661 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: part in genocide. Um. But for now, I want to 662 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: move out of prehistory into just kind of early history 663 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: and talk about what some historians will suggest was the 664 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: first modern genocide UM, the elimination of Carthage in one 665 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: BC by the Roman Republic UM. And when I this 666 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: is not obviously the first genocide by one state against 667 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, people of another state, UM, but it is 668 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: very modern in part because Rome was a republic, and 669 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: so an awful lot of what goes on in the 670 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: genocide of Carthage sounds very familiar. UM. And the fact 671 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: that I've picked this is influenced by the work of 672 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: Australian born historian Ben Kiernan, who's currently director of Genocide 673 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: Studies program at Yale UH. He got his start in 674 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: genocide when he visited Cambodia before the coming of the 675 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: camer Rouge UH, and then afterwards he traveled around the country, 676 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: he learned the camer language, he carried out extensive research 677 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: and interviewed a whole bunch of people about like what 678 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: had happened um. Ben posits that the first recorded incitement 679 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: to genocide were the words of Roman politician Marcus Porteus Cato, who, 680 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: for the last four years of his life, ended every 681 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: single public speech with the words Delinda est Carthago or 682 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: Carthage must be destroyed. Um. Now to explain like what 683 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: happened here, we're going to have to go back into 684 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: classic history a little bit, which I know is both 685 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: you use in my jam. Um. Yeah, I love this 686 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: ship not genocide, but you know Roman history. I was 687 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, uh, it isn't It is an 688 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: amazing field to work. And when you can say, yeah, 689 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: he got his start in genocide, and I'm like, I 690 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: know what, I know what, Robert, Yeah, Yeah, we're talking 691 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: about Cato baby, and Kato is so because he's such 692 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 1: a modern right wing ship head politician, like he's every 693 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: like so much of what he does is like, well, 694 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: that could be a fucking dude today. Um. Because Rome 695 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: is in a lot of ways a very modern political 696 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,919 Speaker 1: entity in this period, like republican Rome. There's a lot 697 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: of things that sound very familiar because it turns like 698 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: whenever people develop a republic h that's based primarily around 699 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: resource extraction, certain things are super similar. Sometimes history is 700 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,959 Speaker 1: a big dumb loop. Yeah. So, Carthage was a port 701 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: city on the African coast of the Mediterranean Sea, near 702 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: where the modern city of Tunis is today. Um, the 703 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: fact that like Carthage is in Africa and Rome is 704 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: Rome makes them sound very distant. They are four hundred 705 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: miles away. That is the difference between San Francisco and 706 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,399 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. And if you've seen how people from San 707 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: Francisco talk about l A, you'll understand how genocidal desire 708 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: could erupt between the two cities. But yeah, these are 709 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: not like far but like obviously it's further back then, 710 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: but like you could fly from from one city to 711 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: the other in about like an hour like today. Even 712 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: back then they could float. It's not that far. Back then, 713 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: they could float their shitty glued together across the net 714 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 1: at one another. It's not it's not hard to get 715 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: to even then, which is why the war happens right. Um. 716 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: So while Rome was from the beginning a land military 717 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: power expanded through force, Carthage Carthage was first a mercantile 718 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: power with trade routes. Again, they're in northern Africa, they're 719 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: trading with people in modern day Britain. Um. Like their 720 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: their trade routes almost extended like Scotland. And of course 721 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: they're like as far down in Africa as gabon Um 722 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: now in my very right wing history classes in Texas, 723 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: I tended to learn what was more or less the 724 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,959 Speaker 1: propaganda line about these wars, which is that the Carthaginians 725 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: are these brutal child sacrificing Eastern devils and the war 726 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: between them in Rome is like what, this is the 727 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: first war between the West and the East, and it's 728 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: what makes the birth of the democratic West possible, Like 729 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: this is the start of all of our wonderful traditions. 730 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: They had to like beat these barbarians, which is that 731 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: hurts my brain? Nonsense um that that is I actually 732 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 1: started uh community college when I was in Texas because 733 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: I was in the army, and that tracks my experience 734 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: in Texas history. That is its horseshit um. Obviously, Carthage 735 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 1: is a massive, like imperial aristocratic power that does all 736 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: sorts of fucked up ship, including like human sacrifice and stuff. 737 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: Um Roman this period has stopped doing human sacrifice as 738 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: a religious thing. But they also are a gigantic slave 739 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: power that brutally oppressives and like enslaves entire racial groups 740 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: of people during conflicts. Like neither of them is better 741 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: than the others. There's not a good guy here, like 742 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: they're just both and it's like it's also I'm like, 743 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: I think pointless to call one the bad guy. They're 744 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: just two early states fighting a war over resources, right Like, 745 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: that's what's happened. There's no point in drawing a moral 746 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: line between. All of their wars are over like proxy 747 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: city states. And that's exactly what we're about to talk. 748 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: This isn't about democrat, this is not this is not 749 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 1: not in any way. Um, Carthage was the great naval 750 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: power of the region, like they kind of own the 751 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: Mediterranean in this period, while Rome in Rome always is 752 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: an infantry power, right like, that's the core of Roman 753 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: like military power is like heavy infantry um in this 754 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 1: period and basically up until like the fall of the Empire, 755 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: that's the thing that their best at. Whenever Rome has 756 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: anything good that's not heavy infantry, it's because they like 757 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 1: higher auxiliaries from another culture, like all of their good cavalry, 758 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: all of their good archers they're good at. They're also 759 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: really good at artillery, although that's kind of less of 760 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: a factor in this period, but they get very very 761 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: good at artillery to um. But yeah, so Carthage has 762 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: the boats, Rome has the dudes who hit people with swords, right, 763 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: that's their strengths. Broadly speaking, the two states actually got 764 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,720 Speaker 1: along pretty well for a while. Carthage had some wars 765 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: with Greeks, which Rome was fine with because Rome was 766 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: bathering battling Italians. Again, Rome is not Italy at this point, right, 767 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: most of Rome's wars are with Italians. They call them Galls, 768 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: but they're like dudes from northern Italy, right, they're my ancestors, 769 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: Transalpine gall. You know, it becomes a big issue. Like 770 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: at one point Caesar allows them into Senate and the 771 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: Romans are like these barbarians. There's Italian this is something 772 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: that hasn't changed. Again, there's nothing that Romans hate more 773 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: than Italians, and there's nothing more than Romans. So um, yeah, 774 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: the the Carthage Rome get along for a while where 775 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: they're they're doing all these other wars. But then some 776 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: ship goes down in Sicily. Now, if you're not a geographyzer, 777 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: Sicily is the American football that's being kicked by Italy, right, 778 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: if you think about think about that. So at the time, 779 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 1: Sicily is primarily a Carthaginian province. It's not right there 780 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: to think it's not like Sicily is like part of 781 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: Carthage in the way that we would consider like Oklahoma 782 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: part of the United States, but they have like the 783 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: influence there um. But both powers get kind of drawn 784 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: into a conflict because one city in in Sicily, Syracuse, 785 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: goes to war with another city in Sicily, messina Um, 786 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 1: and like Syracuse sins soldiers to attack messina Um, Carthage 787 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: back Syracuse, Rome backs messina and they get drawn into 788 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: a war that starts as like this kind of like 789 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: proxy fight. It's more complicated than that, but you really 790 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: don't need to know the details unless you want to 791 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: go read about the Punic wars. So Rome puts together 792 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: a big fleet to go fight the Carthaginians and they 793 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: just get mass instantly massacred. One of the things that's 794 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: fun about Rome is that this is along this is 795 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 1: like a proud part of their military tradition. A war starts, 796 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: they build this massive military thing, it gets wiped out 797 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: to the man and then they're like, all right, I 798 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: guess we'll do it again, and we don't care about 799 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: our lives and like. But that is why Rome becomes 800 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: the big world power in this region, is because they're 801 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: the best at like having an entire armies wiped out, 802 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: to the man and going like, all right, back to 803 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: the drawing board, let's do another one, you know, And 804 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: that's what they do. It takes them like twenty years 805 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: to rebuild their fleet, but they eventually grind down the 806 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: Carthaginian navy and they win the war, and they win 807 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: sicily Um, which Sicilians have rude ever since. So this 808 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,919 Speaker 1: leads to the Second Punic War, and a key moment 809 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: in the Second Punic War, the one everyone knows about 810 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: is you've got this Carthaginian general Hannibal Barca who crossed 811 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,280 Speaker 1: is the Alps with some elephants and a bunch of dudes, 812 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: and he attacks Italy. Uh, he threatens Rome for a while. 813 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: It's a pretty impressive campaign. It includes the Massacre. So 814 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: there's this battle called canny Um can I you know, 815 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: nobody whatever, how are you want to say it, where 816 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: there's this Roman army that outnumbers the Carthaginians two to one, 817 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: but Hannibal does what's called a double envelopment and completely 818 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: surrounds them and like wipes them out in one of 819 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 1: it's still probably the most famous defeat in military history 820 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,879 Speaker 1: up until World War Two. Like you can find all 821 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,439 Speaker 1: generals on every side of that war talking about trying 822 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: to pull off a cane I. Um yeah, Like I 823 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: think someone did the math, and it's a historian. Historian 824 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: I'm not a huge fan of, but they said that 825 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: the massacre at can I was it was like six 826 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: Romans died every hour until from sunrise the sunset. It 827 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: is a calculable percentage of the entire population of Rome 828 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: that dies in this battle, like a meaningful percentage. Um. 829 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,800 Speaker 1: It's like it goes really badly. And again, the strength 830 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: of him is that they keep like this happens to 831 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: them a bunch in Roman history, and they're like, all right, 832 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,839 Speaker 1: we got more guys. Um. So Rome eventually grinds Carthage down. 833 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 1: Hannibal's armies are beaten because they get pulled back to 834 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,319 Speaker 1: Africa because the dude named Scipio Africanus invades and there's 835 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,399 Speaker 1: this whole battle called zama Uh. It's it's it's it's 836 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: neat history if you want to read into it. So 837 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,360 Speaker 1: by the end of the war, Rome has lost like 838 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: a lot of a generation of young men and they're 839 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: pretty pissed at the Carthaginians. This is not wildly dissimilar 840 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: from how a lot of folks in Europe felt at 841 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 1: the end of World War One. Right, we lost like 842 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: a huge chunk of a generation fighting you guys. We 843 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: don't just want like to shake hands and and in 844 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: this thing, you know, like fuck you. That's the attitude. Um. So, 845 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: a surrender is negotiated, and under the terms of the surrender, 846 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: Carthage loses all of its territory outside of North Africa, 847 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: they have to give up their fleet, and they have 848 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: to pay a large war debt to Rome. Um. And 849 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: so you know, this is again you could like kind 850 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: of look at this as there's shades of Versailles in 851 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: this um And from this point on Carthage is realistically 852 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: no kind of military threat to Row, right, Like that 853 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: is not happening after this point. Um. Now, up through 854 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: this period in the fighting between them, these are the 855 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 1: first and second punic wars is what they're called, right. 856 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: The first one is the fighting of our sicily. The 857 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: second one is hannibal. Up through this point, there's not 858 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: a good guy or a bad guy in this story. 859 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,319 Speaker 1: You know, that's two assholes beating each other up over 860 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: her treasure. It's what happens after this point that's fascinating, 861 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 1: because while Rome is very much an aristocratic state and 862 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: calling it a democracy or even a republic, it is 863 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: a republic, but like people tend to exaggerate what that 864 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,959 Speaker 1: means when they talk about it. Um. It is one 865 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 1: of the first nations on Earth with proper politicians in 866 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 1: the modern sense of the word, guys who you could 867 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: like pull on the TV and see dudes doing some 868 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: of the same ship today. Right. That is one of 869 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: the things that's really interesting about studying Rome in this period. 870 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,839 Speaker 1: And this brings us to Marcus Porcius Cato, better known 871 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: as Kato the Elder and Kato the Wise. He was 872 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: a famous conservative politician who railed against Greek culture for 873 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 1: its decadent influence on Romans. He was kind of like 874 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: Victor Davis Hansen, who's a modern right wing historian. If 875 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 1: you smushed him up with like some Dan Crenshaw and 876 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: like a dash of Ted Cruz, oh my god, you're 877 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: just vultron together the worst guy, and he is. He 878 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,839 Speaker 1: is the worst guy. He sucks so bad. Um. He 879 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: was legitimately a soldier and a pretty competent one. He 880 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: fought in the Second Punic War. He commanded troops, and 881 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,799 Speaker 1: he spent the years after the Second Punic War. So 882 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: I just mentioned. The guy who wins the Second Punic 883 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 1: War from Rome is a dude named Scipio Africanus, who's 884 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: generally seen as one of like the best generals in 885 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,279 Speaker 1: military history because Hannibal pretty good at war um, and 886 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,919 Speaker 1: Scipio beats him in a in a fair fight. Uh. 887 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: Cato spends the like years after the war hounding Scipio 888 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: into the grave and basically like repeatedly encouraged like accusing 889 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: him of corruption uh and like profligacy and like wasting resources. Um. 890 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: And he writes histories of the Punic Wars and deletes 891 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,800 Speaker 1: not only Scipio's name but every other person involved named Skipio, 892 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: which is like a common first name. It's like if 893 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: you it's like if you're writing a World War two 894 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: history and you hated Pattents, so you cut out all 895 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 1: the George is I need to be clear here, I 896 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 1: actually support that that that fuck George's right, right, and 897 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:22,359 Speaker 1: fuck Patten. But yes, Cato sucks, But you do have 898 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: to admire this sheerless level. It's very petty he's an 899 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,279 Speaker 1: incredibly petty dude. Um So, he's a he's the pettiest 900 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,280 Speaker 1: man alive. And in one b C he gets elected Console, 901 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 1: which is like pretty much the top of the Roman structure. 902 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: You have sensors to every now and again when they 903 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,279 Speaker 1: do this census, but like consoles basically like as as 904 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: as it's it's like the prime if there were multiple 905 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,799 Speaker 1: prime ministers and they got to command armies. That's kind 906 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: of what a console is. Right there there's two of them, yes, yes, 907 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: and they're both political and military leaders. Again, it's the 908 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,680 Speaker 1: top of the Roman political structures called the curses on 909 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: our um um and it's like it'says, it's like the time. 910 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: If you're in politics, your goal is to get to 911 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: be console one day. Right, that's like as as good 912 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,520 Speaker 1: as it gets. Um So, while he's consul in one five, 913 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,760 Speaker 1: he takes command of Roman legions in Spain because Spain 914 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,879 Speaker 1: rebels Spain rebels a lot. It's called Iberia. At this point. 915 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,720 Speaker 1: There's actually not any kind of Spanish identity at this moment, 916 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: right because Iberia is huge and people who are in 917 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 1: like the deserts of Zaragoza have no particular identity with 918 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:30,799 Speaker 1: the people who are like on the north coast of 919 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 1: Spain or whatever, right like, they don't even they don't 920 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: know what the fuss going on with those motherfucker's um. 921 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,480 Speaker 1: But Spain is rebelling at this point, and he takes 922 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,640 Speaker 1: over the military um and he, you know, he does 923 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,240 Speaker 1: a number of things that we would call war crimes today. 924 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if you'd call them. They're not really 925 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: out of step with military tactics in the day, but 926 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: they're pretty brutal. Um. I'm gonna quote from Ben Kiernan here. 927 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: He was a courageous and effective general, noted for his 928 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: cruelty towards his defeated enemies. Livy sympathize. Kato had more 929 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,399 Speaker 1: difficulties subduing the enemy because he had, as it were, 930 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: to reclaim them like slaves who had asserted their freedom. 931 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: Kato commanded his officers in Spain to force this nation 932 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: to accept again the yoke which it has cast off. 933 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,000 Speaker 1: In one battle, Livy estimate sites an estimate of forty 934 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: enemy killed. When seven towns rebelled, Kato marched his army 935 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: against them and brought them under control without any fighting 936 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: worth recording. But after they again revolted. He ensured that 937 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 1: the conquered were not granted the same pardon as before. 938 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,600 Speaker 1: They were all sold by public auction. Now again, under 939 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,279 Speaker 1: like the definitions we've cited of genocide, you could you 940 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 1: could make a case that he's doing some genocides here. Yeah, 941 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: I mean, especially um, if we're going off modern definitions, 942 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: like we're the the i c C or i C 943 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: j uh identifies rightfully identifies Sabernitza as an active genocide 944 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: unto itself. So like there can be micro cosms of 945 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,200 Speaker 1: genocidal acts, so this would absolutely count as one, yes, 946 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,520 Speaker 1: for sure, especially the you know, killing for two thousand 947 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,320 Speaker 1: people may not be a genocide depending on the situation 948 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 1: in which you do it. For example, Hannibal killed a 949 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 1: similar number of Romans and that was not really a genocide. 950 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: I think it was. It was a lot of Roman um, 951 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:18,479 Speaker 1: but enslaving an entire region of people and marching because 952 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: you're taking them away from where they live too, you're 953 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 1: marching them out like that is an act even if 954 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: you're not killing them, it's an act of genocide. You're 955 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,400 Speaker 1: destroying the culture, right um. In the same way that 956 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: like what American slave owners would do to to Africans 957 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,160 Speaker 1: who were brought into the like that was an act 958 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: of genocide, even though they were not trying to murder 959 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: those people because they were a resource, right, it's still genocidal. 960 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 1: You strength them of their culture, it's not you're not 961 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: gonna allowed to propagate anyway, just like you know, slave 962 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:49,160 Speaker 1: owners force yeah, slaves to take white names, adopt Christianity. Yeah, 963 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: And this is this is one of those. Because there's 964 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,279 Speaker 1: areas in which Roman slavery is very similar to because 965 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: there's chattel slavery is a huge part of Roman slavery, 966 00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: and that's very similar to ship you see in the America. 967 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 1: And there's areas where it's different. For example, an awful 968 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,880 Speaker 1: lot of Greeks sold themselves into slavery because it was 969 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,320 Speaker 1: a pretty good deal. If you were like selling yourself 970 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,360 Speaker 1: to a rich family to like teach their kids and 971 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,279 Speaker 1: stuff like, that's a great gig, you know. Um, it's 972 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: Roman slavery is very complicated in a way that like 973 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: slavery in the America's is not. But this chunk of 974 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: Roman slavery is very similar, especially because some Roman slaves 975 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,320 Speaker 1: could attain their freedom while others certainly could yeah, I 976 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,239 Speaker 1: mean if you're one of the things that's interesting if 977 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,520 Speaker 1: you're talking about like urban Roman slaves, how slaves, right, 978 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: they usually if they lived, you know, in the Middle Ages, 979 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 1: so would get their freedom. And a lot of the 980 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,800 Speaker 1: wealthiest people in the city of Rome were either former 981 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,120 Speaker 1: slaves or descendants of slaves. Because for those people, it 982 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,919 Speaker 1: was like it was like a paid internship. You would 983 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,560 Speaker 1: be a slave for like ten, fifteen, twenty years, you 984 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: would get money when you were freed, and the person 985 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: who had owned you would have to pay you money 986 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:55,759 Speaker 1: the rest of their life. Now you would have to 987 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,160 Speaker 1: support them in a number of ways politically and stuff. 988 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: There was this client system that was built up, but 989 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,160 Speaker 1: it allowed a lot of people who started successful mercantile 990 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 1: businesses were able to do so because they got their 991 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,839 Speaker 1: training while they were a slave, and then they got 992 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,880 Speaker 1: funding from their former owner to start a business. And 993 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,759 Speaker 1: as a freed slave, you can't hold political office, but 994 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,680 Speaker 1: you can vote and your kids can hold hold full 995 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: political office. Right, So a lot of the wealthiest, most 996 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,319 Speaker 1: powerful families in Rome do have like a slave that 997 00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:25,160 Speaker 1: was like their granddad or something like that, because it 998 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 1: is it's not like racial slavery, right, the Romans think 999 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,279 Speaker 1: about it in those terms anyway, just it's it's a 1000 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,120 Speaker 1: very interesting thing anthropologically, and if they grabbed a slave 1001 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,480 Speaker 1: and whatever, you know, you happen to be educated, you 1002 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,640 Speaker 1: would probably like half of the like I'm not exactly 1003 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,399 Speaker 1: sure the numbers, but a large amount of early civil 1004 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:50,800 Speaker 1: Roman society was slaves. Yeah, it's a huge the accountants, bureaucrats, whatever. 1005 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,719 Speaker 1: And this is occurring at the same time as like 1006 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: when someone like Cato En slaves tens of thousands of 1007 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,560 Speaker 1: people in a in a in an uprising or something. 1008 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: Those folks are like being right to minds or or 1009 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,880 Speaker 1: fields where they're worked to death, right like, which is 1010 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,879 Speaker 1: very familiar to some of like some of the worst 1011 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,200 Speaker 1: slavery that's ever anyway, And Roman is interesting. And even 1012 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,319 Speaker 1: in the best case scenario here, let's say you know, 1013 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: ten thousand, and that's a very high number of these 1014 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,360 Speaker 1: people are educated, their literate, you know, their aristocrats and 1015 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,600 Speaker 1: whatever town they came from. At best, if they don't 1016 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: get you know, put into the minds to die, which 1017 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,399 Speaker 1: is legitimately when the worst slavery gigs you could get 1018 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,279 Speaker 1: in rome Um because it's like where they would send 1019 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,239 Speaker 1: rejected gladiators and ships to the minds too, But you 1020 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: would go into Roman society and have to adopt Roman culture, 1021 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: Roman customs, Roman language, all of these things in order 1022 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,440 Speaker 1: to continue to survive. So that's still a genocide. Yeah, 1023 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,239 Speaker 1: it's a Roman history, real neat um. You know what 1024 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: else is neat Oh? No, services that port this podcast, 1025 00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 1: who also have enslaved a couple of towns in Iberia 1026 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 1: after crushing a brutal uprising. You know what products and 1027 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:07,239 Speaker 1: services might not send you to the minds, Oh, for 1028 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,600 Speaker 1: sure will. They'll put you right in those minds. Look, 1029 00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,840 Speaker 1: you don't get the kind of quality smoked salmon that 1030 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,080 Speaker 1: puts out and they're smoked salmon breakfast platter without a 1031 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,080 Speaker 1: lot of people dying to mine lithium. They're going to 1032 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,879 Speaker 1: mail you a pre prepared box with a tiny pick 1033 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: X in it. That's how you get involved with you 1034 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:39,439 Speaker 1: mind it, we ship it program. Anyway, here's atsuh, we're back. 1035 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,919 Speaker 1: So obviously Kato what what the kind of stuff Kato 1036 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: was doing in Iberia? You can find a number of 1037 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,360 Speaker 1: cases of that stuff like that happening in this period 1038 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: by Romans and by other generals. It is worth, noting 1039 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,120 Speaker 1: that his peers, who are also Roman military commanders, are like, 1040 00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,400 Speaker 1: this guy is pretty cruel to his defeated enemies, you know. 1041 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,239 Speaker 1: And again, Rome is the country that when they had 1042 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,240 Speaker 1: a slave uprising, crucified the entire slave army of thousands 1043 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,400 Speaker 1: and lined their corpses up for miles along the via Appia, right, 1044 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 1: And they're those guys are being like, Wow, this dude's mean. Guys. 1045 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 1: I'm I'm starting to think Kato's gone too far. I say, 1046 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,280 Speaker 1: as I hammer and another nail into the slaves hand, 1047 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: that guy's a dick anyway. So um, as a politician, 1048 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: Kato engaged in acts of conservative sophistry that are again 1049 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,080 Speaker 1: very familiar even today. Um, he got hard as fuck, 1050 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:34,920 Speaker 1: and I mean that in the dick sens, thinking about farmers, 1051 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 1: who he considered to be the backbone of society. And 1052 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,400 Speaker 1: he also, yeah, he fucking loves farmers. And he hated 1053 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: the merchants and the business class and educated Greek teachers, 1054 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: who he said, we're ruining Rome the same ship. You 1055 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,760 Speaker 1: gotta get out critical Greek theory on the class. Critical 1056 00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:01,240 Speaker 1: Greek theory is ruining our children. According to the historian Polybius, 1057 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,400 Speaker 1: quote Kato once declared in a public speech that anybody 1058 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,800 Speaker 1: could see the republic was going downhill when a pretty 1059 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:08,920 Speaker 1: boy could cost more than a plot of land and 1060 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:17,880 Speaker 1: jars of fish more than plowman. Again, Roman political history 1061 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 1: a lot of fun to read about. Have you seen 1062 00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: the prices of these boys? I would like to get 1063 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:37,800 Speaker 1: into the upper middle class for Greek boy. So Kato 1064 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,120 Speaker 1: made a huge point of the values of quote, the 1065 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: life of simplicity and self discipline. He did this while 1066 00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:48,120 Speaker 1: owning several massive plant plantations or lata fundi, which he 1067 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: worked with huge teams of slate. When he talked about 1068 00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,360 Speaker 1: being a farmer, because he wrote a book about farming, 1069 00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,160 Speaker 1: his farms were like they were like the plantations of 1070 00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,240 Speaker 1: the US South during slavery. There were these massive enterprises 1071 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,120 Speaker 1: worked by thou sense of slaves, like that's the lad 1072 00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,040 Speaker 1: of farming for Cato. The lat of funda were so 1073 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:09,080 Speaker 1: prevalent they collapsed the Roman economy because regular Roman dudes 1074 00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: didn't have jobs, and that's why the dolls started. It's part, 1075 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,080 Speaker 1: it's a big part of why, and it takes a while, 1076 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:16,800 Speaker 1: which is evidence of some of the things the Romans 1077 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 1: were doing that we're smart but like, it's a big 1078 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,480 Speaker 1: part of why the Roman Empire eventually collapses because Rome's 1079 00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,960 Speaker 1: strength is like the yaleman farmer class that Jefferson got 1080 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: all horny about. It's small farmers, right, who would breed 1081 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,720 Speaker 1: kids who were like used to roughing it, and then 1082 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:32,840 Speaker 1: those kids would join the Roman military and that's what 1083 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,560 Speaker 1: expanded the Roman Empire. And over time all of those 1084 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 1: farms were taken over by rich senators who wanted hobby 1085 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,880 Speaker 1: farms worked by slaves, which made it difficult for them 1086 00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,880 Speaker 1: to recruit soldiers, which led to about it. It's a 1087 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,360 Speaker 1: long process, the collapse of the Roman empires, and that simple. 1088 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,640 Speaker 1: But it's it's even funnier because you, as you talked about, 1089 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,600 Speaker 1: one of their strengths is being able to throw waves 1090 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 1: of idiot Roman kids at swords until you finally got 1091 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,800 Speaker 1: tired and went home. Um. Back then you had to 1092 00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 1: be a landowning male to join the military. So before 1093 01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,960 Speaker 1: the Marian reforms, Yes, so these tens of thousands of 1094 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:10,400 Speaker 1: landowners died and then assholes like Cato's arms of yeah, 1095 01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:15,439 Speaker 1: we're like, well this fill it with slaves. Um. Yeah, 1096 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,240 Speaker 1: it was noted of Kato that he preferred he quote 1097 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,640 Speaker 1: preferred to buy those prisoners of war who were young 1098 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:27,240 Speaker 1: and still susceptible, like puppies. Yeah. Despite his public rants 1099 01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 1: against merchants, he also made most of his money, according 1100 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,600 Speaker 1: to Plutarch as quote the most disruptible branch of money 1101 01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:38,480 Speaker 1: lending a ka. He ran a payday loan company. This 1102 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:44,720 Speaker 1: guy sucks so bad because his name on a stadium. 1103 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,560 Speaker 1: Oh oh god. Yeah. And also Kato would have like 1104 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,720 Speaker 1: a billion dollars in crypto, like he would have been 1105 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,040 Speaker 1: all in on n f T s. Don't don't you 1106 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,120 Speaker 1: dare tell me Kato wouldn't own a board ape that 1107 01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,440 Speaker 1: he would get stolen from him when he clicked a 1108 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,160 Speaker 1: fishing ink. Now, he would just get really mad that 1109 01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,919 Speaker 1: people are buying n f T s of Greek Boy, Yeah, 1110 01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:12,640 Speaker 1: what happened to that made us great? He's just he's 1111 01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: just doing a return to mommy, ye resert to monkey. 1112 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:18,800 Speaker 1: So Kato goes through decades of public life. He writes 1113 01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of books. We still have his book on farming. 1114 01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,440 Speaker 1: He writes one on soldiering that we don't have. He 1115 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,160 Speaker 1: lays down a lot of pithy quotes for douchebags to 1116 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,840 Speaker 1: put on their Facebook profiles generations later quotes like quote 1117 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,520 Speaker 1: stick to the point, the words will follow, which is 1118 01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: very bit like he he invented Ben Shapiro. Let's just 1119 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:40,200 Speaker 1: say it, like, what does that even mean? It means 1120 01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,840 Speaker 1: like you kind of find the argument by the endpoint 1121 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,840 Speaker 1: of the argument, right like that that's a fucking Michael 1122 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,040 Speaker 1: Scott quote. It is a Michael Scott quote. But it's 1123 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,480 Speaker 1: also like you can see, it's like Ted Cruz being like, 1124 01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:54,840 Speaker 1: we just need one door in the school. So you know, 1125 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,040 Speaker 1: like your point is, I don't want anything to fundamentally 1126 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,200 Speaker 1: change about like guns, because it's the central issue that 1127 01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,840 Speaker 1: you can't go against as a conservative. So instead one door, right, Like, 1128 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,600 Speaker 1: it's stick to the stick to the point, and you'll 1129 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,040 Speaker 1: figure out the words along the way. Coming out boldly, yeah, 1130 01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:17,200 Speaker 1: bravely a favorite door control so many, like many of 1131 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 1: the conservative demagogues who would come after him, he was 1132 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:24,280 Speaker 1: a massive misogynist, and this is he's a misogynist. During 1133 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 1: the Roman republic Um now, Kato spoke out against the 1134 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,439 Speaker 1: repeal of a law from the Second Punic War which 1135 01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,120 Speaker 1: denied women the right to quote possess more than half 1136 01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,960 Speaker 1: an ounce of gold or where party colored clothing or 1137 01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:42,680 Speaker 1: right in a horse drawn vehicle in a city or town. Um. Now, 1138 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,640 Speaker 1: this was this law. I'm not entirely certain why they 1139 01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,360 Speaker 1: passed this law during the war, but it's like they 1140 01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,920 Speaker 1: passed this law as like part of a you know, 1141 01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,880 Speaker 1: a the war effort, and it was very unpopular for 1142 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,760 Speaker 1: it was very unpopular for obvious reasons and the injustice 1143 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,720 Speaker 1: of this law. Roman women because again is a republic, 1144 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,760 Speaker 1: they don't have the right to vote, but there are 1145 01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,080 Speaker 1: they do understand the idea of like protesting right, like 1146 01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,000 Speaker 1: that does exist in Rome, the idea that you would 1147 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,600 Speaker 1: get people together. Now, generally Roman protests are armed mobs 1148 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:16,120 Speaker 1: that murder people. But who's who's to say if that's 1149 01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,280 Speaker 1: it's not always bad, right? A lot of the times 1150 01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,120 Speaker 1: the armed mobs are in the right. Um, Roman women 1151 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,440 Speaker 1: to protest this law organize one of maybe the first 1152 01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,720 Speaker 1: women's rights campaign in democratic history to get it repealed. 1153 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,440 Speaker 1: Uh Livy writes that quote women came in from the 1154 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,000 Speaker 1: towns and rural centers and beset all the streets of 1155 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,080 Speaker 1: the city and all the approaches to the forum. Um. 1156 01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,520 Speaker 1: This horrified Cato, and he found himself asking, quote, are 1157 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,360 Speaker 1: you in the habit of running out into the streets, 1158 01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,840 Speaker 1: blocking the roads, addressing other women's husbands, or are you 1159 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,800 Speaker 1: more alluring in the street than in the home, more 1160 01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,400 Speaker 1: attractive to other women's husband women's husbands, and even at home, 1161 01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,240 Speaker 1: it would not become you to be concerned about the 1162 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,240 Speaker 1: question of what laws should be passed or repealed in 1163 01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,880 Speaker 1: this place. So again to tell you about how modern 1164 01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,840 Speaker 1: a right wing politician this guy is. He's yelling at 1165 01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,520 Speaker 1: them for blocking the streets. Kato has like an every 1166 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,720 Speaker 1: dust Yes. Yeah, he he awoke one night in fucking 1167 01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,320 Speaker 1: one nine two b c with like the vision of 1168 01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,240 Speaker 1: the black rifle coffee logo in his head. It does 1169 01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,160 Speaker 1: his business model of fraud. He knew the name of 1170 01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,520 Speaker 1: Kyle Rittenhouse thousands of years before the boy was born, 1171 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:36,040 Speaker 1: having visions of nine line clothing and apparel. Uh, he 1172 01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,000 Speaker 1: would have done amazing on Facebook. Um. He and Steve 1173 01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,840 Speaker 1: Bannon would have gone fishing together. He was just so 1174 01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,280 Speaker 1: ready for our world. He absolutely would have been on 1175 01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:50,400 Speaker 1: that boat they got raised by the Yeah, he would have. 1176 01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: He would have been part of the week, and he 1177 01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:53,840 Speaker 1: would have been one of the guys who got pardoned. 1178 01:04:54,000 --> 01:05:00,080 Speaker 1: Right like so, Kato screeched to his fellow legislators that 1179 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,200 Speaker 1: gatherings of women were quote the greatest danger a democracy 1180 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,280 Speaker 1: could face. Quote Our liberty overthrown in the home by 1181 01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,320 Speaker 1: female and discipline is now being crushed and trodden underfoot 1182 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:13,400 Speaker 1: here too in the Forum. It is because we have 1183 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,920 Speaker 1: not kept them under control individually that we are now 1184 01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,800 Speaker 1: terrorized by them collectively. But we, Heaven preserve us, are 1185 01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:22,920 Speaker 1: now allowing them to even take part in politics, and 1186 01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,760 Speaker 1: actually to appear in the Forum and be present at 1187 01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,640 Speaker 1: our meetings and assemblies. What are they longing for? In 1188 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,360 Speaker 1: complete liberty or rather complete license. The very moment they 1189 01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 1: begin to be your equals, they will be your superiors. 1190 01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:43,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I like that you started halfway through you 1191 01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,840 Speaker 1: switched to your Ben Shapiro voice. I can't not, I 1192 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,240 Speaker 1: can't not. There's a certain level of ship head that 1193 01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:54,960 Speaker 1: you just have to go into Shapira again. Like that 1194 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,480 Speaker 1: could be a fucking bright Bart column, right, Like that 1195 01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,640 Speaker 1: could be on Return of Kings. You know, it's amazing, 1196 01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:05,439 Speaker 1: it's incredible. So going his own way, going its own way, 1197 01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:10,640 Speaker 1: Ben Kieranan goes, I'm imagining Kato giving this speech, and 1198 01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:18,360 Speaker 1: for the Davids are he never felt like a glass 1199 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:24,040 Speaker 1: of fucking like yeah yeah wine with just enough letting 1200 01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:29,320 Speaker 1: it to take the edge off. Fucking hell um. Ben 1201 01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,960 Speaker 1: Kiernan goes on to write quote for Kato. Much of 1202 01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,400 Speaker 1: this seemed a matter of social control occluding according to Plutarch, 1203 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,440 Speaker 1: since he believed that among slaves sex was the greatest 1204 01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,840 Speaker 1: cause of delinquency. He made it a rule that his 1205 01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,720 Speaker 1: male slaves could, for a set fee, have intercourse with 1206 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,240 Speaker 1: his female slaves, but no one of them was allowed 1207 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,160 Speaker 1: to consort with another woman. After Kato's wife died, a 1208 01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,120 Speaker 1: prostitute Quote would come to see him without anyone's knowing 1209 01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,840 Speaker 1: of it. In public life, he was more severe. In Spain. 1210 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,520 Speaker 1: One of his officers hung himself when Kato discovered he 1211 01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,640 Speaker 1: had bought three captive boys. Kato sold the boys and 1212 01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:03,360 Speaker 1: returned the price to the treasury. He once banished from 1213 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,400 Speaker 1: the Senate a man who had kissed his own wife 1214 01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,280 Speaker 1: in broad daylight and in sight of his daughter. Kato 1215 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,280 Speaker 1: joked publicly that he had never embraced his wife except 1216 01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:14,480 Speaker 1: after a loud thunder clap. So just a normal dude, 1217 01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,920 Speaker 1: How are you just a real normal ass guy? Like 1218 01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,120 Speaker 1: this is? This is the origin this is the fucking 1219 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,320 Speaker 1: origin story of fucking through a hole in his shue, 1220 01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:27,400 Speaker 1: likes the sheet on top of his wife, who's like, okay, honey, 1221 01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,200 Speaker 1: here I come. And again, Kato is not normal for 1222 01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,880 Speaker 1: Rome in the period. He's not abnormal. They're certainly like 1223 01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:34,959 Speaker 1: dudes who line up behind him in his power block. 1224 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:37,840 Speaker 1: But like most a lot of Roman society is like 1225 01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:43,440 Speaker 1: the fuck dude, especially nobility up. All they do was 1226 01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,959 Speaker 1: weird sex thing men women each other. It doesn't matter. 1227 01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,880 Speaker 1: Like man, this guy's a fucking prude. He sucks and 1228 01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,280 Speaker 1: rounding out his patron saint of right wing politicians Bingo card. 1229 01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,760 Speaker 1: Kato also attacked gay people and one eight six b 1230 01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:01,920 Speaker 1: C Roman magistrates began to execute an alleged bokic cult. 1231 01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,720 Speaker 1: Boxus is like the god of wine and other cool stuff. 1232 01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:08,080 Speaker 1: Uh Now, this cult had formerly been an all female cult, 1233 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,840 Speaker 1: which had overtime become an all gay men cult. Basically 1234 01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:13,520 Speaker 1: like a place for them to go cruising. It is 1235 01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,519 Speaker 1: pretty rad um, but like Kato helps to like lead 1236 01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:19,320 Speaker 1: this charge against them, and a bunch of guys get 1237 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,200 Speaker 1: convicted of quote foul sexual acts along with some women um, 1238 01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,520 Speaker 1: which again makes it seem even rather um. Cato enthusiastically 1239 01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:32,080 Speaker 1: denounces the cult and he helped in order to like 1240 01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,280 Speaker 1: because of how much he hates the fact that, like 1241 01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,400 Speaker 1: there's this fairly popular cult that basically is like a 1242 01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,400 Speaker 1: place for for for gay people to go cruise. Kato 1243 01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,880 Speaker 1: builds support for an invasion of Dalmatia. Um, and he 1244 01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:48,080 Speaker 1: justifies it by saying, quote, because they do not want 1245 01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,599 Speaker 1: the men of Italy to become womenish enough through too 1246 01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:54,439 Speaker 1: lengthy a spell of feast. He's like, this is evidence 1247 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:56,280 Speaker 1: that our guys are getting too girly, so we have 1248 01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,800 Speaker 1: to evade this random country. This is Cato falling for 1249 01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:04,200 Speaker 1: like the Russian army recruitment commercial that everybody loved like 1250 01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,439 Speaker 1: a year ago. Yeah yeah, yeah, the VDV thing or 1251 01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,639 Speaker 1: oh no though the other one yeah yeah yeah yeah, 1252 01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:15,479 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's pretty funny. Um anyway. So and 1253 01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,920 Speaker 1: then near the end of his life this has all 1254 01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:23,400 Speaker 1: been color on Cato. In one BC, Spain rises in 1255 01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:25,799 Speaker 1: rebellion again. This is like forty years after he's crushed 1256 01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:28,000 Speaker 1: rebellion in Spain, right, so forty years it's about enough 1257 01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:29,920 Speaker 1: time for you to like replace all the people who 1258 01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:33,080 Speaker 1: he killed. Um. So this rebellion really doesn't have a 1259 01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,280 Speaker 1: lot to do with Carthage, which again has no navy 1260 01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,240 Speaker 1: and not much of a military at this point. But 1261 01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:41,439 Speaker 1: the invasion is or the uprising is followed by uprisings 1262 01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:44,920 Speaker 1: in Macedonia and in Achaia, and a wiser man might 1263 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,720 Speaker 1: have concluded that people were mad about like Roman taxes, 1264 01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,000 Speaker 1: all of the murdering and enslaving they were doing in 1265 01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:53,120 Speaker 1: these areas. Kato was not that dude. Um In one 1266 01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,040 Speaker 1: fifty two b C. He takes part in a senatorial 1267 01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:59,360 Speaker 1: mission to Carthage. Now the city has lost its empire, 1268 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,880 Speaker 1: but it's still it's a really good location. They're still 1269 01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,120 Speaker 1: able to like trade. They can't have a militarized navy, 1270 01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,320 Speaker 1: but they got like boats bringing places stuff all over 1271 01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:09,599 Speaker 1: the place. And the fact that they're no longer paying 1272 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:11,799 Speaker 1: for the massive military that they've had as an empire 1273 01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,360 Speaker 1: means that they're like, they're doing really well. Like the 1274 01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,559 Speaker 1: economy is thriving. Right, it turns out that we can 1275 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:22,800 Speaker 1: reinvest the work. Yes, this is actually going well, Kato 1276 01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,479 Speaker 1: writes in his Horror In a Horror that quote Carthridge 1277 01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,280 Speaker 1: was quote burgeoning with an abundance of young men brimming 1278 01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:32,160 Speaker 1: with copious wealth, teeming with weapons. Um Man, he really 1279 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,240 Speaker 1: seems a zero and constantly in young men. He's really 1280 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,360 Speaker 1: got a thing with the young men. Now filled with 1281 01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,080 Speaker 1: a mix of jealousy and paranoia, he returns home and 1282 01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,439 Speaker 1: he takes to the Senate. Ben Karenan writes on his return, 1283 01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:46,640 Speaker 1: while he was rearranging the folds in his toga in 1284 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,799 Speaker 1: the Senate, Cato by design let fall some Libyan figs. 1285 01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,000 Speaker 1: And then after everyone had expressed admiration for their size 1286 01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,200 Speaker 1: and beauty, he said that the land produced them was 1287 01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:59,799 Speaker 1: but three days sail from Rome. So again this is funny, 1288 01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:01,720 Speaker 1: but it's like it's figs. But also this is not 1289 01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,120 Speaker 1: that different from being like, I don't you remember guys 1290 01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,040 Speaker 1: earlier in the odds, like when China had their big 1291 01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,000 Speaker 1: Olympics thing, or just like looking at like look at 1292 01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,479 Speaker 1: all the stuff they're making in China, like they're they're 1293 01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,840 Speaker 1: they're like, we we have to we can't compete with them. 1294 01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:15,759 Speaker 1: They they're eating us alive and manufacturing, Like think about 1295 01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:18,519 Speaker 1: like the fucking um one of those Michael Crichton books 1296 01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:21,479 Speaker 1: written in between Reagan and Clinton, where he's like terrified 1297 01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,240 Speaker 1: of Japan, like that whole fear of Japan in the eighties, 1298 01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,360 Speaker 1: where it's like, look at all these computers they can build. 1299 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:31,400 Speaker 1: A speaking of Japan, that's like, quite literally the one 1300 01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:34,679 Speaker 1: are the excuses they use to manufacture war in China. 1301 01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:36,120 Speaker 1: It is like, look at all the land they have 1302 01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,639 Speaker 1: that we know this is bullshit. It's it's this, except 1303 01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,680 Speaker 1: for in this case it's figs. But yeah, um, and 1304 01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:45,920 Speaker 1: as Kiernan writes, it's all a lie quote. His figs 1305 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,040 Speaker 1: could not have come from Carthage more than a six 1306 01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:51,879 Speaker 1: sta voyage in summer. His audience of senatorial gentleman farmers 1307 01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,599 Speaker 1: probably knew they came from Kato's own estate near Rome. 1308 01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,040 Speaker 1: Some may even have read his advice on how to 1309 01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:01,160 Speaker 1: plant African figs in Italy. Carthaginian product had barely penetrated 1310 01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,760 Speaker 1: the Italian market. So Kato brings his own figs and 1311 01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:07,719 Speaker 1: it's like, look at how big these Carthaginian figs are. Crisis. 1312 01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,599 Speaker 1: Yeah again, he would have done very well with Twitter. 1313 01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:16,040 Speaker 1: So Kato spent the last five years of his life 1314 01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:19,160 Speaker 1: haranguing his fellow senators to destroy Carthage, and gradually they 1315 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,760 Speaker 1: get on board with the idea. While the plan is 1316 01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,759 Speaker 1: always couched in terms of Roman self defense. The arguments 1317 01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,400 Speaker 1: are all economic, and the primary reason to support the 1318 01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:29,560 Speaker 1: war was to give the nation an easy foe to 1319 01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:31,680 Speaker 1: rally against in a time when which there's all these 1320 01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:35,760 Speaker 1: costly and difficult constant uprisings. On the year Kato died 1321 01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:40,880 Speaker 1: one nine, Rome's console Sinsurnas demanded Carthage hand over her 1322 01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:44,120 Speaker 1: weapons and give Rome hostages. They do this, so the 1323 01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:47,400 Speaker 1: Romans next demand that the Carthage uproot itself and moved 1324 01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,080 Speaker 1: twelve miles inland so that they can burn the old 1325 01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:53,599 Speaker 1: city to the ground. The Carthaginians are like, no, we're 1326 01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:57,720 Speaker 1: not gonna do that. Roman like, all right, we have 1327 01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,080 Speaker 1: to give him the demand. They can't possibly. Yeah, this 1328 01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:04,320 Speaker 1: is why they're the whole city. They're trying to come 1329 01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:06,960 Speaker 1: up with the demand that will force Carthage to fight them, 1330 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:08,880 Speaker 1: and eventually they have to be all right, you gotta 1331 01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:15,080 Speaker 1: move your city twelve miles. Well, no, that sounds really dumb. Yeah, 1332 01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,240 Speaker 1: So Carthage fights for three years against Romes. Might they 1333 01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:21,919 Speaker 1: finally succumb in one six b C and Roman legions 1334 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,120 Speaker 1: march street to street, house to house, killing systematically depending 1335 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:27,840 Speaker 1: on who you go to The city is likely to 1336 01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,120 Speaker 1: have held between a hundred thousand and two hundred thousand 1337 01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:33,160 Speaker 1: people when Roman soldiers enter it. I'm gonna quote from 1338 01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:35,679 Speaker 1: a rite up in World History dot org here. Even 1339 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,080 Speaker 1: at this lower end, the slaughter in the city was, however, 1340 01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,439 Speaker 1: substantial and probably unprecedented in the European world up to 1341 01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:44,519 Speaker 1: that time. The survivors, possibly numbering anywhere for the thirty 1342 01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,280 Speaker 1: thousand to fifty thousand people, were sold as slaves on 1343 01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:50,280 Speaker 1: direct orders from Rome. The city was subsequently set allite 1344 01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,280 Speaker 1: and after ten days of burning, demolished stone by stone. 1345 01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,000 Speaker 1: Polybius in his histories uh noted that the destruction of 1346 01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:00,000 Speaker 1: the Carthaginians was immediate and total, so much that there 1347 01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:03,280 Speaker 1: were no Carthaginians left to even express their remorse. The 1348 01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:05,400 Speaker 1: killing of all the inhabitants of the city state whose 1349 01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,920 Speaker 1: inhabitants had refused to surrender was quite frequent in the 1350 01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:11,600 Speaker 1: ancient world, so labor labeling this particular innocent incident a 1351 01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:15,160 Speaker 1: genocide needs careful examination. A key element in this case, 1352 01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,240 Speaker 1: and one which would be in line with Limpkin's notion 1353 01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:20,920 Speaker 1: of genocide, was Rome's apparent intention to destroy carthage It's 1354 01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,200 Speaker 1: people and culture. No matter what this underlying aim could 1355 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,400 Speaker 1: be seen in Romes increasingly impossible to satisfy demands placed 1356 01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,360 Speaker 1: on Carthage before the outbreak of war, when Carthage could 1357 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,599 Speaker 1: no longer realistically satisfy the demands, this gave the Romans 1358 01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,639 Speaker 1: a legitimate excuse for their actions. And yeah, I'm comfortable 1359 01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:41,479 Speaker 1: calling it a genocide. Yeah, yeah. I think one of 1360 01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:44,000 Speaker 1: the problems is, and I think we've already talked about this, 1361 01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,000 Speaker 1: is this hasn'tancy to use the term genocide. Is one, 1362 01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:51,920 Speaker 1: obviously heavily politicized when we talk about modern day events, 1363 01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:55,040 Speaker 1: but two, when it comes to events that have happened 1364 01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,400 Speaker 1: thousands of years ago. Everybody has this idea that genocide 1365 01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:03,280 Speaker 1: is a modern thing within the eight eighteen hundreds. Yeah 1366 01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:10,120 Speaker 1: it's nah, it's And I don't understand that the hesitancy anymore, 1367 01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:14,120 Speaker 1: Like I I don't understand the political politicization of it either, 1368 01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,200 Speaker 1: but like, at least that you understand why, like, well, 1369 01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,800 Speaker 1: we can't call this a genocide because you know, we'll 1370 01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,759 Speaker 1: get fucking sanctioned by Russia or China, the United States. 1371 01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:28,960 Speaker 1: But like, is fucking Italy gonna sanction nobody? Nobody if 1372 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,360 Speaker 1: you tell like Romans like this, they'll be like, yeah, 1373 01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:34,040 Speaker 1: I guess, like I don't think anyone gives a ship anymore, 1374 01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,479 Speaker 1: Like we should be able to do this. Um, And 1375 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,120 Speaker 1: the ones who do care are probably like, deeply deep 1376 01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:46,719 Speaker 1: probably really it's probably like Mussolini's granddaughter. I'm sure she's 1377 01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,880 Speaker 1: not and she is legitimately a political figure in the country. 1378 01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:52,479 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure there are some people who would 1379 01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,439 Speaker 1: be pissed, But I don't know. I know some I 1380 01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:58,000 Speaker 1: know some Italians. I think mostly it's like it's like 1381 01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:00,439 Speaker 1: talking to I don't know, if you were like go 1382 01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,040 Speaker 1: to somebody in Kenya and be like, hey, you know, 1383 01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:06,640 Speaker 1: somebody did a genocide here ten thousand years ago, I 1384 01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,880 Speaker 1: think most people would be like, okay, yeah, that's probably 1385 01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,240 Speaker 1: I would caution some people, I'm not doing that. And 1386 01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:17,160 Speaker 1: in certain countries with that the genocidit card in the 1387 01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,840 Speaker 1: last hundred and eight years or so, that's when it 1388 01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:24,720 Speaker 1: gets real political. Ten thousand years back, not much as 1389 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:28,840 Speaker 1: although you know we could we could talk. Um, you 1390 01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:36,800 Speaker 1: do literally live in Armenia. Um. All right, well, Joe, 1391 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:38,360 Speaker 1: this is going to be the end of part one. 1392 01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,040 Speaker 1: When it comes back to Part two, We're gonna have 1393 01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:44,639 Speaker 1: a super fun discussion about what makes human beings capable 1394 01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:49,320 Speaker 1: of engaging in mass killing. It sounds like will last 1395 01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,680 Speaker 1: I can't wait. I thought you'd never asked. It does 1396 01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:56,800 Speaker 1: occasionally involve blasts. Um, Joey, that was that was uncomfortable. 1397 01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:01,040 Speaker 1: Um you got you got any pluggable puck. I host 1398 01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:05,679 Speaker 1: the podcast The Lines Led by Donkeys podcasts, not the 1399 01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 1: British political one. Um, and we talk about genocide unfortunately 1400 01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:14,160 Speaker 1: quite often. For instance, we've done seven hours on the 1401 01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:17,559 Speaker 1: Cambodian genocide and we also talked about military history and 1402 01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:22,519 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah. Um, so check out Lions led 1403 01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:26,679 Speaker 1: by donkeys. Check out donkeys, just find one. They're good. 1404 01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,000 Speaker 1: They're good, good animals, the good animals. Yeah, they do 1405 01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:35,720 Speaker 1: good stuff, useful, hardy, um, good eating. Oh man, donkey 1406 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,160 Speaker 1: put that on some like rye bread, a little bit 1407 01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:42,639 Speaker 1: of catch up. Yeah yeah, absolutely. Anyway, this has been 1408 01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,599 Speaker 1: behind the Bastards, the podcast funded by the donkey made industry, 1409 01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,880 Speaker 1: which is having a tough years, always having a tough year. 1410 01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:52,760 Speaker 1: Difficult to get people on board with donkeys. I can't 1411 01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:55,920 Speaker 1: believe Big Donkey got their hooks into I heart media. 1412 01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,719 Speaker 1: I always knew this day would Yeah, yeah, where where 1413 01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:04,640 Speaker 1: we're we're primarily opposing the EMU Farmers of America UM 1414 01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:09,519 Speaker 1: who disastrous path that Australia has already followed? What what 1415 01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,680 Speaker 1: was making an Australia joke, So we have to oppose 1416 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,479 Speaker 1: big EMU. It's just proxy war, don't you know them 1417 01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:19,160 Speaker 1: is already defeated Australia. They're just trying to bring them 1418 01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:20,240 Speaker 1: here and they're just trying to bring them to the 1419 01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:26,679 Speaker 1: United States. All their boomerangs were useless. All right. That's 1420 01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,400 Speaker 1: the show. Behind the Bastards is a production of cool 1421 01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,360 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from cool zone Media, visit our 1422 01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,800 Speaker 1: website cool zone media dot com, or check us out 1423 01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:38,439 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1424 01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:39,600 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.