1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. I feel like I almost coughed 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: in the middle of saying that we spent the whole 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: week talking about Dean Muhammad. Yeah, he's pretty interesting. I 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: was so fascinated. I was especially fascinated by all the 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: arts in London and Brighton and having the first Indian 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: restaurant and having these steambaths. I simultaneously hate how much 9 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: weird quackery there is in the world that takes advantage 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: of people, but also, boy do I love go into 11 00:00:53,320 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: a spa. Had I lived in England in you know, 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: the eighteenth early nineteenth century and also had money to 13 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: do so, I can tell you I would have been 14 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,559 Speaker 1: in bath. I would have been in Brighton. I would 15 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: have been having like all the massages and all the 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: steam baths and all of everything. I know this is 17 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: not for you. It stresses me out just thinking about it, 18 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: which is counter to the goal. I'm the opposite. I'm like, 19 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: think of all the things I could be doing while 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm lying here, dear, Yet me like I can be 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: making a dress. My brain is just like, no, don't 22 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: lie down. Something that occurred to me very important question 23 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: in my mind as I was working on that part 24 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: of this episode is do you think that Lydia Bennett 25 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: went to Dean Muhammed's baths and Brighton before she ran 26 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: off to a lope. Sadly, the answer is probably not, 27 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: because I'm pretty sure it was a year after that 28 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: book came out that his first actual baths of his 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: own opened, and I was like, ah, bummer, I was 30 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: just imagining a whole Now we're gonna have to write 31 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: some fan fiction about Lydia Bennett and Pride and Prejudice 32 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: and her time in Brighton. Anyway, there are two things 33 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: that stand out to me in this story, Okay. One 34 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: is the sort of strange scenario of him leaving home 35 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: to be a camp follower. Mm hmm, just because in 36 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: some ways it's so relatable, right, Like, so many people 37 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: that I know, including to some degree myself, leave home 38 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: to start their lives and their parents feel somehow wronged 39 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: by that, and it's oh, sure, it's just a conflicted 40 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: thing that I'm like, this has been going on forever. Yeah, yeah, 41 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: and it's strange that he articulates that conflict, like it's 42 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: not something that I am accustomed to seeing anybody from 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: history talk about quite so frankly, like my mom was 44 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: really sad, but I was really happy. I don't, you know. 45 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: It's it sounds like the writing of somebody from like 46 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, nineteen ninety six, like any any recent 47 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: thing of like I don't this sucks, I want and 48 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: need this, but also I don't want to make this 49 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: person miserable. But I can't live my life and not 50 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: make them miserable. Right, that's just again so relatable that 51 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: I was like, hmm, yeah, he was also, I mean, 52 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: he was a child when that happened, and so part 53 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: of me wonders how much of it was like the 54 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: childhood fantasy of like running away to join the circus, 55 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't I don't really know, since 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: he was writing all of that as an adult looking 57 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: back on his childhood, right as, I don't really know, 58 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: was there another thing that you had that struck you? Now? 59 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: The other thing that I love about his story is 60 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: just his resiliency and capability of just like Okay, well 61 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna pivot. What else can I do ye am, 62 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: I good a lot? Yeah, Like all right, oh well, 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: now I'm gonna I'm gonna join the military now because 64 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: that seems like the next obvious step. I want to 65 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: stay with my friend. Yeah, oh, I guess now I'm 66 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: gonna become, you know, a massage therapist of sorts. All right, 67 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: I did that exact thing. I did a whole career 68 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: change to be a massage therapist at one point. I mean, 69 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: I think most of us have done multiple career changes. 70 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: I know I have, But it is just kind of 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: fascinating because he was so he did so well in 72 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: so many different things. Yeah. Yeah, even the restaurant, which 73 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: wasn't a financial success. It seems like people really thought 74 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: it was a good restaurant, right, And it was really 75 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: some decades after that before Indian cuisine or sort of 76 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: Indian British fusion cuisine in England really took off. It 77 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: was sort of a little early for all of that 78 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: when he was actually running that restaurant. Something that struck 79 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: me about his travels of Dean maham it when I 80 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: got into it, I mean I knew that every description 81 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: I had read of it had framed it as like 82 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: a travel book, but the fact that it was about 83 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: his time with the army. I expected there to be 84 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 1: more more armies military and that's there's like really not 85 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: There's just whole letters that are just devoted to like 86 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: this is how this is how the Muslims do marriage, 87 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: This is how the Muslims do like has how the 88 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: Muslims feel about death, Like this is what this landscape 89 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: looks like. This is how beautiful this city is. This 90 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: is how amazing and learned and groundbreaking India was in 91 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: the past, and like now we're in this place where 92 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: that empire is fracturing. Like so much of it about 93 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: was about all of this other stuff. There's an incredibly 94 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: long passage about how to trap and train an elephant, 95 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: which because you know, like the Indians or elephants were 96 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: a big part of sort of military units and in 97 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: parts of India and just just elephants in general. So interesting, 98 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: so much of it, and he was clearly writing about 99 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: a place that he really loved and thought was beautiful 100 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: and thought was important and thought was something that the 101 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: people who were visiting it should know more about before 102 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: they got there. Yeah, but then it has this underpinning 103 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: of also seeming to really support British colonial in trade 104 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: efforts there, which makes it then complicated. One of the 105 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: things that I've really tried to do on the show 106 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: and especially in more recent years, is like just to 107 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: try to draw from people's own words as much as possible, 108 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about people whose experiences and perspectives 109 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: are so different from yours and mind right, and this 110 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: is an example of how that can be really complicated 111 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: sometimes because yeah, you have this perspective of an Indian 112 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: man living in Ireland and then England, but like also 113 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: supporting a colonial effort that a lot of other people 114 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: were resisting, and that just makes it complicated. Yeah, it's 115 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: also one of those things I always have that moment 116 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: of I don't know if cringiness is the right word. 117 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: It's kind of too of the day, but like it's 118 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: a thing where you always go, oh, I just know 119 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: this gut you who's against people in India by saying like, no, 120 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: your fellow countryman thinks we're great. Ye Oh, I don't, Yeah, 121 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know if it really got because 122 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: there were four hundred and fifty copies printed. As far 123 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: as I know, that was the only print run, so 124 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: it's not like this is a giant runaway restseller. So 125 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know how much attention it got 126 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: beyond affluent people in England, Ireland, Scotland, like places in 127 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: that immediate area, like right, but then aren't those exactly 128 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: the people that would have power? Yeah? Then those are 129 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: the people like he's specifically writing it for those same 130 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,119 Speaker 1: folks who might be going to India for whatever reason. Yeah, 131 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: it's a little tricky. I found him so fascinating though, 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: and so many things like so many, so many firsts, 133 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: and also so much which just brighten wellness time. Right, 134 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: so yeah, also too many Janes? Yeah, or possibly only one. Well, 135 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: it's interesting because I hadn't really thought about it while 136 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: I was reading this over initially, but when we were recording, 137 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: when we start to list the births of his children, 138 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: Oh right, they come so far after when he most 139 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: of them come so far after when he and Jane 140 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: number one or possibly only got married, that that to 141 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: me seems like a clue that there might have been 142 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: a second Jane. Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think, as 143 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: I understand it, the references that suggest there's a second 144 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: Jane are like later obituaries of some of their descendants 145 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: and obituaries are tricky to take as accurate sources for 146 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: a number of reasons. Yes, but as I understand, it's 147 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: like there's not a clear answer one way or the other. 148 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: And I don't know whether they had other children earlier 149 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: in the marriage that didn't survive. So yeah, it's just 150 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: a lot that's really unclear. There so many James, so 151 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: many James. Yeah, so yeah, I am glad I got 152 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: to spend so much time reading about Indian food and spies. 153 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to say about that. Just marvelous, Yeah, mardelous. Yeah. 154 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: So Happy Friday, everybody. Whatever's happening over the weekend. I 155 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: hope it's great. We will be back with a Saturday 156 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: Classic tomorrow. We will be back with a brand new 157 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: episode on Monday. Stuff You Missed in History Class is 158 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 159 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 160 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.