1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: This is Emily and and you're listening to Steph Mom. 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: Never told you Now today we are called to this topic. Unfortunately, 3 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: because of the horrific demonstration of terrorism and white supremacy 4 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: and Nazism on display in Charlotte'sville not too long ago, 5 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: we couldn't get into the studio soon enough to cover 6 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: this topic. But I wanted to not only pay honor 7 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: to the tragic death of Heather Higher in that horrific 8 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: day in Charlotte'sville, but also talk honestly about the white 9 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: supreme to c movement here in the United States. Isn't 10 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: as male dominated as we'd like to think it is, 11 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: Isn't that right? That's so right? Um. In doing a 12 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: lot of research for this episode, and then also just 13 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: in having eyes and being a person that exists in 14 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: the world, I think we see that women have a 15 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: have a role in white supremacy and unpacking that and 16 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: getting to the bottom of that can be really hard. UM. 17 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: I also just want to say, as tragic as you know, 18 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: the loss of life and Charlie's full was, I think 19 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: it's important to lift up that life lost. Also understanding 20 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: that so many black and brown folks have been violently 21 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: killed because of white supremacy, and I don't want to 22 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: frame it as because this white woman got killed, we 23 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: don't have to talk about racism in a real way 24 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: when it's really a larger, you know problem. I mean, 25 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: black lives matter, right, I think we can start there 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: by saying that there have been far too many lives 27 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: as lost in because of the movement around white supremacy 28 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: and because of our our nation's really uncomfortable history with this. 29 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of uncomfortable white folks out 30 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: there right now who are forced to reckon with this. 31 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: When we see Nazis marching without hoods, when we see what, 32 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: you know, these tiki torch wielding, collar shirt wearing average 33 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: white guys walking through the streets proudly professing their hatred, 34 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: it really forces I think a lot of white folks 35 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: to wake up and recognize white supremacies alive and well 36 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: in a way that's easier to ignore when you're not 37 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of that kind of persecution. I 38 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: think that's so true. Um, in the aftermath of Charlotte's 39 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: spill Um, something that I was sort of really taken 40 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: by was this rush to have you know slogans like 41 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: this is not us, and I get that sentiment, but 42 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: you know what, this is us. This is America, this 43 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: is white, this is the country that we've built, This 44 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: is the stuff our country was unted it on, and 45 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,119 Speaker 1: saying this is not us is a way of removing 46 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: it and making it less real. But a lot of 47 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: folks of color don't have that option exactly. And I 48 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: think for a lot of us women, it can be 49 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: tempting to look at these photos that are predominantly male, right, 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: these are mostly men who are marching in the street, 51 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: and think, what are all these angry white guys, you know, 52 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: feeling victimized about? And that belies the fact that behind 53 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: those photos that are white women at home, you know, 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: cooking a lovely meal for their white man to come 55 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: home from that march to consume. Or there are mothers 56 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: and sisters, and there are lots of women that have 57 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: been instrumental in the movement for white supremacy, not just today, 58 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about, but historically. Yeah. And 59 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: even with the guy who drove his car into the 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: protests at Chartspell, when they interviewed his mother, you really 61 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: got the sense that she had sort of turned a 62 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: blind to something toxic that was brewing in her own 63 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: son because she maybe did not want to confront it 64 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: and didn't fully understand it, so she did let it 65 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: go right. And so there are lots of different levels 66 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: to people's complicitness with white supremacy, either involvement with or 67 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: perpetuation of white supremacy that we want to unpack today, 68 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: specifically focusing on women's involvement in white supremacy historically and 69 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: in the present day. One of the first articles that 70 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: came to mind when I started talking about this on 71 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: Twitter a couple weeks ago now was from Genevieve Hatch 72 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: for the Huffington Post, who wrote it wasn't just white 73 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: men who participated in the Unite the Right rally. In 74 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: that article, she says, quote, white supremacy is indeed rooted 75 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: in racism and misogyny, but white women have historically enabled racism, 76 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: even if it came with the cost of misogyny. And 77 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: in Charlottesville, many yet again chose to maintain their white 78 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: privilege by choosing subordination to white men over solidarity with 79 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: people of color, which I thought was a really interesting 80 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: psychological choice. This idea that in the white supremacist movements. Historically, 81 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of patriarchy involved. There's been a 82 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: very clear delineation between men's roles and women's roles historically 83 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: and today. That's where a lot of the um sort 84 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: of moral family values part of the far right movement 85 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: in the United States and modern history has said, we 86 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: want women to be free to stay at home, we 87 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: want women to be free to be homemakers, and really 88 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: relegated to that domain. Even in the KKK they said, no, 89 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: we appreciate that you're pro white supremacy women, but we 90 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: don't want you involved in leading this movement per se. 91 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: There was resistance there. I think that idea that women 92 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: that their role traditionally in supporting these kinds of movements 93 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: is by creating a stable domestic situation at home so 94 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: the men can be on the front lines, you know, 95 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: doing Nazi stuff exactly. And I hope that I hope 96 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: we can have this conversation in the way that we 97 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: usually do, which is by putting a little bit of 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: fun at things and having a laugh in the face 99 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: of this really insane stuff that's happening today. But I 100 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: hope that you listeners who know that this doesn't mean 101 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: we're making light of the subject. Yeah, I mean just 102 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: in my own personal life being a woman of color, 103 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: there's this old adage of laugh to keep from crying. Yeah, 104 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,679 Speaker 1: you know, not everybody embraces that, and that is fine, 105 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: But I think that as folks of color, our senses 106 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: of humor have have helped us persevere through so much. 107 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: And I've gotten a lot of kicks out of making 108 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: fun of Nazis the last few days. Um, it's pretty easy. 109 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: A lot of them are ridiculous, absolutely rigid. And I 110 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: want to bring it back to the point that women 111 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: have long been involved, like you said, especially in the 112 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: domestic sphere, in perpetuating the movements around white supremacy. In fact, 113 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: women were responsible for the erection of many of those 114 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: Confederate statues that were paying homage to the Civil War 115 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: generals involved in the rebellion from the South. So all 116 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: those mass fabricated statues that we've seen come down and 117 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: crumble in a surprisingly simple fashion when they tumbled to 118 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: the ground. Uh, those were mass produced and put up 119 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: thanks to the very organized ladies who lund to the South. Really, 120 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: this was like Southern women were at the forefront during 121 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: the Jim Crow era of of erecting these monuments to 122 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: remind folks of color who they really value. And you know, 123 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I grew up right outside of Richmond, Virginia, 124 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: on going to school right near Monument Avenue every day, 125 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: and if you ever in Richmond, it's a you can't 126 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: walk down the street without constant reminders that you are 127 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: in the former capital of the Confederacy. Wow. So some 128 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: of the best journalism that I've seen that really unpacks 129 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: the history of women's involvement in white supremacy has been 130 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: written by Laura Smith. She wrote in New York magazines 131 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: The Cut an article called the Truth about Women and 132 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: White Supremacy. She's also a staff writer for Timeline dot com. 133 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: And we're thrilled that Laura was able to join us 134 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: here today. Thanks for having me and thanks for the 135 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: kind words to the article. Well, it was really really 136 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: eye opening, I know for both of us. Can you 137 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: tell us, Laura, what is the truth? What is the 138 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 1: sort of untold story behind women's involvement in the rise 139 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: of white supremacy. Well, a couple of things. It's sort 140 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: of complicated. Is the short answer um and the launder 141 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: answer is that white women have always been involved in 142 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: white supremacy, whether it was a more subtle role um 143 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: or whether they had a more public faith um as 144 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: they did in so that Sarah was sort of the 145 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: heyday of the klu Klux Klan and um they had 146 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: their own autonomous arm during that period, so it was 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: called the w KKK for Women's klu Klux Klant, right, yeah, um. 148 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: And I mean one thing to keep in mind as 149 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about this is, like I've heard criticisms that 150 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: what we're saying is that women are more blame than men, 151 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: and that's not really what we're arguing. What what what 152 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: we're saying when we say that we need to look 153 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: at the role of white women in white supremacy and 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: racism in this country, What we're saying is that we 155 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: need to look at it as a system wide issue. 156 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: That racism and white supremacy in this country are not 157 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: you know, just cross burning and the sort of more 158 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: um like picture worthy like uh flash ear like news 159 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: flash ear type things. It's really much more that it's 160 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: woven into society and women are a part of society. 161 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: And so if we're not acknowledging the role that women 162 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: are playing, then we're not acknowledging that it's woven into 163 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: the fabric of society. I mean, I think that when 164 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: we when we see something really traumatic happening, really tempting 165 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: to rely on gender tropes and say, you know, and 166 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: sort of revert to this idea as like like you said, 167 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: like women being the more center, or having more high ground, 168 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: or being you know, the center of the home and 169 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: love and all of those things. And that's you know, 170 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: it's a really old fashioned idea. So it's a Victorian idea. 171 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: It was an idea before before the Victorians, you know, um, 172 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: that women are somehow more pure, and you know, we 173 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: have as a society I think largely rejected that idea, um, 174 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: because it led to a lot of horrible things like 175 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: being sexually repressed and other things like that, and you know, 176 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: and really was unfair to the fact that women are 177 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: complicated human beings, complicated desires and all of these things. 178 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: And you know, but we are seeing and it is 179 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: really tempting to say, no, women have nothing to do 180 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: with violence. Um. And like you know, like I was 181 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,599 Speaker 1: saying earlier, I think that to not ignore knowledge, that is, 182 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: to not acknowledge the violence inherence in society and at 183 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: least on half of you know, white people and people's power. 184 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: It's really coming to look at the pictures of the 185 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: w KKK and be really like focused on that. But 186 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: what we all got to remember is that when the 187 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: w k KK ended, the women who were active and 188 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: that you know, they went back into the school board 189 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: and they were you know, a part of local and 190 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: national politics. So and that is you know, the pictures 191 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: of that are less flashy, but that is important as well. Absolutely, 192 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: And there's a beautiful connection that you really highlighted in 193 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: your piece for Timeline dot com. Uh. The headline was 194 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: the KKK started a branch just for women in the 195 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and half a million joined, which I thought 196 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: was jaw dropping as a you know, just from the 197 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: headline on forward. But in that piece you draw this 198 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: connection that I found really interesting between women's suffrage and 199 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: the early successes of women's liberation in the nineteen twenties 200 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: to this sort of warped rise of women's power when 201 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: it comes to the movement for white supremacy in the KKK. 202 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that connection. Yeah, I mean, 203 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: that's like a super weird thing about this whole thing 204 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: is that, you know, after suffrage, when when women won 205 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: the right to vote, they became more politically engaged and 206 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: they felt empowered to do this, and so women with 207 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: racist and nativist ideologies, we're looking for other ways to 208 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: channel you know, their ideology into political organizations and things 209 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: like that. So, you know, and they did it under 210 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: the guise of you know, concerned about education and up 211 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: holding the American way, which of course we know is 212 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: code for you know, the white Anglo saxts and Protestant way, 213 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, and so they were really active against Catholics, 214 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: so not just black people. And then they think twenties 215 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: KKK was really focused on immigrants, um, and you know, 216 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: increase in number of immigrants who are coming to this country. 217 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I think it's this really strange 218 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: thing where it was kind of a weird form of 219 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: some of those them. M hmm. Yeah, let's all just 220 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: take a beat to let that thing in. I mean, 221 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: I have to say, I can't help but draw parallels 222 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: to that. Today that's sort of um, white women's, white 223 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: women's political power being used in some really toxic ways 224 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: that just you know, further really toxic stuff under the 225 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: guise of care about national security or I care about 226 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: my family's education. I see the same that same rhetoric 227 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: being used to sort of gift wrap really toxic political 228 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: ideology um into something that's a little bit more palatable 229 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: for women. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, we're seeing 230 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: the exact same thing, like the Family values movement is 231 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: in many ways, you know, very thinly veiled racism, you know, 232 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of talk about immigrants and crime 233 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: and other things. And I think, you know, one of 234 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: the sort of depressing things about being stray writers that 235 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: you just do the same things propping us again and 236 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: again and again. It's scary. I mean, what, what are 237 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: the lessons learned that we can draw from the twenties, 238 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: Because what you really highlighted for me and you're writing 239 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: is that women were hugely responsible for the expansion of 240 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: white supremacy. It's not just that the w KKK was 241 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: this tiny offshoot, it's that they were extremely effective. Were 242 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: they not? Well, I think they were effective, And I 243 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: think the reason, I mean, it's still like pills in comparison. 244 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: I think that KKK in that period with four millions, 245 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: but I think the thing that we need to look 246 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: at is the ways in which their messaging is still 247 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: being used. So in the more palatable forms of their messaging, 248 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: they are still being used, which is what you guys 249 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: were just pointing out about, you know, the family value stuff. Um. 250 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: So one of the lessons that we need to take 251 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: away um. Um the w k k K is we 252 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: should be looking at the less obvious trombology that they 253 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: were using. So not the burning crosses, because those are 254 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: really recognizable, but what are the lesser recognizable forms of 255 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: racism that still permeate our culture? Um? And I think 256 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: we see that in a lot of the you know, 257 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: MAGA messaging and you know, make America great again, like 258 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,119 Speaker 1: what is that code for? To make America white again? Um, 259 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: and other things like that. So I think we need 260 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: to It's almost like we need to look less at 261 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: the like white coats, because those are such obvious symbols, 262 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: and look at the systemic, you know, like less easily 263 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: identifiable forms of white supremacy that exists today. Definitely, I 264 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: definitely see this temptation, and I get it. It's very understandable, 265 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: this temptation of a lot of folks to look at 266 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: those more obvious symbols of white supremacy and racism that 267 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: you were just talking about, you know, burning cross and 268 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: Nazi salutes and things like that, and in a kind 269 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: of way, even though those images are very jarring, they 270 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: allow people to sort of disassociate because they can look 271 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: at those things and say, I'm not that, I'm not 272 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: burning across, I'm not wearing a swatska, I'm not you know, 273 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: doing a Nazi salute in the street. Therefore, and neither 274 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: is my son, Neither is my husband, neither is my brother, 275 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: Neither is you know, my good guy friend. Nobody in 276 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: my sphere is doing that. And it kind of allows 277 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: them to make that other and make it something they 278 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: don't have to deal with because it's so removed from 279 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: their day to day and they can then make themselves 280 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: believe that they are not an agent and white supremacy, 281 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: even if they kind of are exactly exactly. It provides 282 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: a lot of cover for people to then subtly and 283 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: accurate racial you know, policies that are harmful. So like 284 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: a great example of this is urban renewal. It sounds great, 285 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: like who doesn't want the toy to be renewed? That 286 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: sounds like a really great idea, but what that often 287 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: means it's taking homes away from black people. So to 288 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: go to the Charlottesville example, Um, another piece I wrote 289 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: for Timeline was about how Charlotte still had to thrive 290 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: in the black community called Vinegar Hill and it was 291 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: demolished in the nineties sixties as a part of an 292 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: urban renewal project, and it was, you know, essentially marketed 293 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: to people as we're going to clean the city up. 294 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: And what that meant like closing black businesses, taking away 295 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: a black black houses and things like that. Wow. And 296 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: so just knowing the history of how cities are legislating 297 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: and on whose behalf they're sort of crafting the future, 298 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: I think it says a lot about the racial climate 299 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: in that community. And it's a good example of racism 300 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: or white supremacy. Isn't the equivalent of marching through the 301 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: streets with a tiki torch in a in a white 302 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: supremacy rally. It can also be baked into our politics, 303 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: as you're saying, and into our policies, uh, you know, 304 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: starting from the top on down. Exactly when you mentioned 305 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: the make America Great Again messaging, I'm looking back at 306 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: some of the slogans you referenced that we're used by 307 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: the w KKK way back in then hinteen twenties, and 308 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: can't help but draw comparisons to what you're describing. They 309 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: said things like, are you interested in the welfare of 310 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: our nation as an enfranchised woman? Are you interested in 311 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: better government? Should we not interest ourselves in better education 312 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: for our children? And then you went on to describe 313 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: that they organized parades and food drives with the benefit 314 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: funneled right back into clan families, and joining the clan meant, 315 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, proving yourself as pure an Aryan and non 316 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: communist and non Protestant in all those things, and also 317 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 1: being vouched for by multiple clan members too. So this 318 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: was very much an insular supremacist society that watched out 319 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: for one another. And so that that's a positive framing 320 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: of a totally bigoted act. Well, just to add on 321 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: to that, just recently online I saw an actual flyer 322 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: for a white supremacist organization that used that exact same 323 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: framing of you know, concern about education your children, UM, 324 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: preserving your ID, your cultural identity, um. Things that all 325 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: sound great until you step back and say, wait, this 326 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: is a white supremacist organization, right exactly, and so much 327 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: of what we're saying. I mean, I live in Berkeley 328 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: and I work in San Francisco, and last weekend, you know, 329 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: there were two marches that were organized here, and what 330 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: you saw people organizing around what the all right claimed 331 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: to be organizing around the so called call right um 332 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: because you know, there's an argument that we should just 333 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: call them what they are, which is white supremises, and 334 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: not you know, validate them without a less potent term 335 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: to alt right um. But what you saw them organizing 336 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: around was free speech, you know, and I think that 337 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: it's really important that we not buy into that messaging. 338 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: So what they're doing is they're making it about free speech, 339 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: and they're choosing, oh, that's the message that we're gonna 340 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: organized time, because everybody can get behind free speech. You know, 341 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: it's and it's a right that we can all defend 342 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: and no one will be against that. So it's a 343 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: really smart pr note, you know, it's and you know 344 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: the rights has been you know what supremacist particularly have 345 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: done a good job of packaging there really important messages 346 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: in packaging that is more appealing to everyone that's that's 347 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: so right. I wanted to go back to a point 348 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: that you made earlier, just a minute ago about this 349 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: framing of white supremacists versus the alt right or Nazis. 350 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: Um something that I've noticed, and I noticed it's very 351 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: very early on, and a lot of people in the 352 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: media got clack for it. Was this idea that when 353 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: the alt right first kind of entered the cultural zeitgeist, 354 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: there are all these articles about, oh, they're dressed so fancy, 355 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: and look at Richard Spencer's haircut. He certainly is that 356 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: tidy dresser, and it sort of made this very toxic, 357 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: messed up political ideology palatable in this way by highlighting 358 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: the fact that these white supremacists were not wearing hoods. 359 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: They were wearing suits and ties and tidy haircuts even 360 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: in the White House now right, exactly exactly what I saw. Yeah, 361 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can speak to that, Like, what 362 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: do you think was going on with that move to 363 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: rebrand from you know, a nazi or white supremacist to 364 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: quote the alt right with a tidy haircut, but still 365 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: a Nazi, right, Well, not just a tidy haircut, but 366 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: like a hip haircutt Yeah, I've had some dudes with 367 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: that same cut, and you ditched the haircut. He had 368 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: to go on Twitter and like basically disown his haircut. 369 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of dudes in Brooklyn and 370 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: Oakland have to be like, guys, I've always had this haircut. 371 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: I'm not an I just really like it high and tight. 372 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: It's so funny. I saw a poster at at the 373 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: counter demonstration and dark of this weekend um and it 374 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: was a guy you know who's demonstrating against white supremacy, 375 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: and he said, uh, give gay people their haircut back. 376 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: I saw that there are all these other kind of 377 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: strange accouterments of modern day white supremacy. New Balance sneakers 378 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: like imagine your your crappy, toxic political ideology having a 379 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: preferred footwear. What is happening? And hey, did not I 380 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: miss the memo on Alan Yes or New Balance that's 381 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: a weird position. Yeah, I mean I think that this 382 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: is like all of this gets to the point that 383 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: like a lot of this is packaging and we have 384 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: to be really careful when we're looking at it and say, 385 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: you know, what's behind the packaging, what are they actually selling? 386 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: You know? And it's behind of the mirror of the 387 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: new balance, and you know, the like hipster do is 388 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: blatant white supremacy, sexism, um nativism, nationalism, all of that. 389 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: How can other people get better? Because I've definitely seen 390 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: even outlets that you would think would would get it right. Um, 391 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: Mother Jones comes to mind, Washington Post comes to mind. 392 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: They did get swept up in this branding and this 393 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: great pr of you know, who are these dapper new 394 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: Nazis storming into town? How can what can the media 395 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: do to be better? So I think a couple of things. 396 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: I think that if they're going to write about the 397 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: protests or counter protests, they should actually be there. Um. 398 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: There was a really alarming Washington Post articles that I 399 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: thought really mischaracterized the nature of the counter protests that 400 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: happened in Berkeley recently. And I think that, you know, 401 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: it just has to like as journalists, these vigilant as 402 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: saying looking at what's being presented and then going to 403 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: step further and asking what is behind that and what 404 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: is the true intention, true nature of this group or 405 00:23:54,600 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: whatever else? And it's really tempting, especially when violence is involved. Um, 406 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: too quickly leap to conclusions, and I think that that 407 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 1: must be resisted at all costs. You know, it's up 408 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: to journalists to call things as they are, not as bafy. 409 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: We're so grateful for Laura for joining us and spending 410 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: some time sharing really her expertise in the history behind 411 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: women's involvement in white supremacy. When we come back, we're 412 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: going to talk about how the movement for white supremacy 413 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: and unfortunately women's involvement in that movement perpetuates today. Stay 414 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: with us after this quick break and we are back, 415 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: and buckle up, white folks, especially because it's about to 416 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: get even more uncomfortable. I know that this can be 417 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: a really tough topic to get a little self critical 418 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: around racism in America and white supremacy and the institutions 419 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: and sort of lattice work of white supremacy that persists 420 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 1: in our country. But this is not something that is 421 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 1: relegated to hoodwearing, cross burning, tiki torch wielding people marching 422 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: through the streets. It's just not always that overt. It's 423 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: not always that over. And if there was one thing 424 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to impart on people about racism is 425 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: you don't need to be burning across on someone's lawn 426 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: or wearing a swastika shaved into your head two perpetuate 427 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: some really toxic stuff on race. Racism is a system. 428 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: We all have, you know, a role to play in 429 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: these systems that kind of control our lives and that 430 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: our country was founded on. And even if you're someone 431 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: who says, oh, well, I don't have a problem with 432 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: black people, or I don't have a problem with immigrants, 433 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: or you think of yourself as someone who's good or 434 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: someone who quote doesn't see race, we all have, which 435 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: which is unhelpful thing, but we all have a role 436 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: in this because in exactly, and you know what, one 437 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: of the best resources I found on this is actually 438 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: called the Racism Scale, which was put out for free 439 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: along with some a bunch of educational resources that you 440 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: can find at Racism Scale dot wee BLI that's w 441 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: e e b l y dot com, which is really 442 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: a labor of love by a few groups formed around 443 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: social justice and some activists who put together the scale 444 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: that they never intended to go viral, but has in 445 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: fact gone viral since Charlottesville because it really beautifully and 446 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: visually describes the sort of sliding scale of racist beliefs 447 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: that you might catch yourself experiencing on occasion. Now, this 448 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: is us calling you in, as you've discussed in a 449 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: recent episode, not calling you out, but calling you in, 450 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: and especially as someone who presents white, calling in my 451 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: white fellow women and men, to think, critic before we 452 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: jump to action to help other people, to help folks 453 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: of color, Let's begin by doing the really hard work 454 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: of self analysis and self critique by looking at this 455 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: sliding scale and thinking about where you might lie. Yeah, 456 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: I think this scale is a really useful tool. Um. 457 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: One of the things I really like about it is 458 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: that it lays out what you might think of as 459 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: of course that's really racist and messed up, like I 460 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: would kill a person because they were black or whites 461 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: or the superior race. But it also goes to a 462 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: spectrum where it's these smaller, more subtle forms of racism 463 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: and things that you might even catch yourself saying from 464 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: time to time, things like how am I privileged if 465 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: I was born poor? Or I just don't want the ghetto, 466 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: or it was just a joke, or what about reverse racism? 467 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: If you find yourself thinking these things, these are actually 468 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: not the most productive and useful thoughts when you're thinking 469 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: about institutions like white sup Yeah. The thing I love 470 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: about this is that you don't have to be a 471 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: terrorist or an overt racist to fall on this scale. 472 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: There really is a huge extent to the scale that 473 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: was around denial things like well racism is no longer 474 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: a thing all the way to feeling like a white 475 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: savior who has to come in and save the day, 476 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: or this justification of being woke. Uh, this idea that 477 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: there's you know that love conquers all this like can't 478 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: we all just get along kumbaya post racial society stuff, 479 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: And something that I think is really really important that 480 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: we dive deeper into, which is known as the performative ally. Now, 481 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: once you get beyond the performative ally the person who 482 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: might I don't know, wear a safety pin just to 483 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: show everybody that they're not a racist in the era 484 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump in the White House. Once you get 485 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: beyond that sort of performative ally ship, which is really 486 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: all about you, the ally making sure every one knows 487 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: that you're a good person, that's where we can get 488 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: to true awareness around privilege and it's continuous impact in 489 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: society and real lasting ally ship and to talk more 490 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: about ally ship and what that looks like when it's 491 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: being done in a thoughtful way versus a not so 492 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: thoughtful way. We're really pleased to be joined by Marissa 493 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: Jane Johnson. She's a co creator of the Safety Pinbox 494 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 1: along with Leslie Mac and they're amazing digital activists and 495 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: really rad black women that you should definitely be following 496 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter and listening to. Marissa. Thank you so much 497 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,959 Speaker 1: for joining us today. Thanks for having me so, Marissa, 498 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: first of all, tell me about safety pin Box and 499 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: why you and Leslie created it. Yeah. So, you know, 500 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: we're three years antibist Black Lives Matter movement, and I 501 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: feel like in general, we're in like a soul searching 502 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: period where people are really looking for direction in the movement. 503 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: And one of the major problems that hasn't been solved 504 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: in the movement is we most of the people in 505 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: the movement, primarily black women, black queer folks, um are 506 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: really struggling to figure out the sustainability piece of this 507 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: movement because when everything you know, sort of popped off 508 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: with the Ferguson Uprising and with this with the murder 509 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: of Mike Brown and everybody was running sort of off 510 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: of pure emotion in the channeline UM. But here we 511 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: are three years later, Donald Trump is UM president and 512 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: people are needing to find out more sustainable avenue for 513 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: doing this work. So that's the context set. Me and 514 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: my co founder Leslie come out of this being, you know, 515 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: activists around us who will be on in this and 516 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: DC one day and who we know UM can't afford 517 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: by groceries that week, and there seemed to be no solution. 518 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: So that's the context that we came out of. And 519 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: then the election of Donald Trump happened, and we saw 520 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: this overwhelming sort of like emotion and like fake or 521 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: maybe not fake shocks from quote unquote liberals or well 522 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: to do white people like how does this happen? And 523 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of like UM, and I 524 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,239 Speaker 1: think still is a lot of people emoting all over 525 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: the places like oh no, we have to stop this. 526 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: And what me and Leslie saw all right off the 527 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: bat was that people didn't know what to do or 528 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: how to actually respond. And one of the one of 529 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: the ways that we knew that one of the greatest 530 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: symbols that we saw this UM following the election of 531 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was the safety pin fad, which was basically 532 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: imported from the UK, which is basically these idea, this 533 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: idea that you know, white liberals or good meeting white 534 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: people would wear a safety pin on their like lappel 535 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: or their shirt or whatever, and that would signal to 536 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: everyone else who was around, including like, uh, a Muslim 537 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: woman you know, who was being a victim of a 538 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: hit crime, or a gay person or a black person 539 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: or who was in danger or whatever, that um that 540 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: they were a safe white person and that they would intervene. 541 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: And this this fad was pretty laughable to uh, to 542 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: a lot of uh people of marginalized identities, and particularly 543 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: black woman because it felt very performative and and a 544 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: lot of people when you talk to them who were 545 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: pro safety pin, you like, cool, what's your safety plan 546 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: for when someone attacks someone in front of you? I 547 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: didn't have a plan. So it was very basically just 548 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: virtue signaling the other white people. So say, I took 549 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: a little flak on this Very show for being skeptical 550 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: of safety pins. Well, we've laughed about them, people, Yeah, 551 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: we've laughed about them, and people I don't like that. 552 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: People got very people get defensive when you call out there. 553 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to say it, they're shallow, empty 554 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: attempt at signaling virtue. Well, the other piece about this, 555 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: I mean that was the first piece that happened was 556 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: when I wear in Jamaica, all this was going down. 557 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: The center piece was only saw white people to modifying 558 00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: the safety pins and selling three safety pin necklaces and 559 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: and even now you know, we saw pant Nation was 560 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: like seventy dollar branded pant suit Nation loking and we're like, okay, 561 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: where is all this money going to? Is this money 562 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: going to those who are directly affective? And so basically 563 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: white people, as white people do, we're making money off 564 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: of the emotional or response to it, and like very little, 565 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: more likely than not, none of that money was that 566 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: directly day he was most effective. So that's kind of 567 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: how we came up with the idea to kill two 568 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: birds with one stone. Why don't we um create a 569 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: product to educate white people on what kind of tangible 570 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: actions they can take and what's to use a considerable 571 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: amount of that money to directly financially suppoor actives on 572 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: the ground. Yeah, so I love that so much. Um, 573 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: I just wanted to lift up something that you said 574 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: in that it is this idea that after Trump got elected, 575 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: it was sort of a spectrum of kind of fake 576 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,959 Speaker 1: shock by maybe well meeting whites who were like how 577 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: could this happen? And then sort of this sort of 578 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: performative safety pin thing, and then this last kind of 579 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: gross thing of com modifying that that that ally performance. Um. 580 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: And so I'm curious, what does it look like to 581 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: be a good ally? If you're a white person who 582 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: was well meaning and you know, disgusted by racism and 583 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, what do you how do you avoid 584 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: falling into this trap of having it be either a 585 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: very performative without actually having a a tangible you know, 586 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: metric for what it looks like when you actually do 587 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: something helpful, or without having it be like this emotional 588 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 1: thing that's all about you and how sad you are, 589 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: right right? Well, A one of the things I like 590 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: to say is there are no good white people. Um, 591 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: and I mean very specifically. Yeah, wait, can you explain that? 592 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: Can you explain that a little bit? First as a 593 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: as an immediately feeling defensive white person and behalf of 594 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: all the defensive white listeners that we have. Yeah, just 595 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: if my defensive white persons. Let me finished, I'm explaining 596 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: it right, but I'll be very clear. There there are 597 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: no good white people. Um. And one of the things 598 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: that I encourage white folks who who want to be 599 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: useful in the fight for black oboration is to work 600 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: through that notion that there are no good white people. Um. 601 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: And And why that's important is the first piece is 602 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: that um. One of the issues that we see is 603 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: that a lot of white people think they're already good 604 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,919 Speaker 1: or good enough, right, So they don't do any introspection. 605 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: They aren't able to actively engage critique, right because I'm 606 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: one of the good ones, right, and so and a 607 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: lot of the actions that we see people doing are 608 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: preoccupied with looking like a good person or not looking bad, 609 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: and so we put folks in the position where they 610 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: care more about looking good. So if you're able to 611 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: let go of this notion that you are a good 612 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: white person or always wanting to see like you look 613 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: like a good word person, then ideally you can step 614 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: beyond on that to really be self critical and to 615 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: be able to um actually receive uh, actually received criticism, right, 616 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: actually be held accountable for your actions because a lot 617 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: of times when we're talking about racism. You talk to 618 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: a white person, you can be very direct and say 619 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: you harm me in ex way and they'll say, but 620 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm a good Right, There's it's instant sputaneously back, I'm 621 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: a good white person. So if you if you let 622 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: go of that miss altogether, we believe that's where you 623 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: can start doing the work. Now, the flip side of 624 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: that um is not masochism, right, It's not self pity 625 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: and white people are the worst and like, oh my gosh, 626 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: I cannot do anything like That's another thing that we see. 627 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: It's also resentering the issue back on the white folks, 628 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: right and wellening your self pitty. And what we really 629 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: encourage people to do is let's cause this notion as 630 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: a good white person, right, and also don't be so 631 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: inwardly focused that you're like, well I could do nothing, 632 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: Oh but you want to be better, let's do that, right. Well. 633 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: I love people who can. Further than that, I want 634 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: to lift up what I love the most about safety 635 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: pin Box, which is it's really action oriented and targeted 636 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: to a white consumer. Right, So you send a monthly 637 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: subscription in box form to your white paying customers and 638 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: give practical actionable steps that they can take that white 639 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: women like myself are white people at large, can take 640 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: to begin to really be introspective, be self critical, be 641 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: analytical not only about yourself your beliefs, but really your 642 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: actions and your community, and how you can start right 643 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: in your own home dismantling institutions of white supremacy and 644 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: how it really does fall on white folks to be 645 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: involved in that process from a critical and analytical perspective. 646 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: And then you're taking the money that those clients, that 647 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: those consumers of safety can Box are sending to you 648 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: and re funneling those funds directly to black women in 649 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: the movement, and you're not dictating how those women use 650 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: the money, right, it's directly for their own use in 651 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: being sustainable in this time, in this climate, which I 652 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: just I think is such an awesome model and such 653 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: a great example of if someone really wants to know 654 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: what it looks like to be introspective, they can go 655 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: to your website and get one of those I believe 656 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: you have a sample action, right, a sample action like 657 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: what comes now? We have a sample test, that's that's 658 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: all about. We have a sample test that's all about 659 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: assessing power and UM in your community and in your 660 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: personal life and seeing how you've can shifted UH to 661 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: fight back into white supremacy because UM, I mean we 662 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: give the practical piece, you do a lot on the introspection, 663 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: right because part of it is white people working through 664 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: their own feelings around this, right, because I believe that 665 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: UM unpacking whiteness and all of its trappings is part 666 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: of the work. So that's simultaneously what people do. But 667 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: a lot of times people think that these issues are 668 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: so big, right that they're like all they can just 669 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: do is just be sad and like re share sad 670 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: articles on Facebook, you know, UM. And so part of 671 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: what we do is is really part you learn about 672 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: an issue, you learn about your role in it, and 673 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: be introspective around that. Don't We really part it down 674 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: to into like if you had half an hour today 675 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: to work on something, or half an hour twice a 676 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: week for a month to work on something, like, what 677 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: could you actually do? And so that's why the sample 678 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: task is around power because we found that a lot 679 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: of people say, oh, there's nothing I can do and 680 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: they haven't even done an assessment over the power that 681 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: they hold in their own lives and do an assessment 682 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: there the five You actually don't have a lot of 683 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: control um over where your money goes, over your workplace. 684 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: If you own a home, you have control over that 685 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: space and how safe it can do to marginal or 686 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: souls um And even just starting there opens up new 687 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: ideas for people. And I can tell you right now 688 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: so many of our listeners are right there of saying 689 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: what can I do? I feel powerless in this fight 690 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: because white supremacy on display in this country right now 691 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: especially feels overwhelming. It feels like I don't know where 692 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: to begin. It feels you know, that that shock, that 693 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: horror where whether it is fake or not so fake, 694 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: is baked into our country. Right How do we even 695 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: begin to dismantle something that feels so big and so overwhelming? Uh? 696 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: You know, even when we have white privilege going for us, 697 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't always feel like one person can change. So 698 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: I just I love how you break it down and 699 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: make it really practical. Is there an example you could 700 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: give for some of our listeners today who do have 701 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: a half hour, who do want to examine their own 702 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: power structures at home, who do want to take action 703 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: and come up with not just a safety pin but 704 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: a safety plan for making marginalized folks in their world 705 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: a little safer. Where could we begin or what what's 706 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: one action we might able to start with? Right? Well, 707 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: I will say that the part of the trip to 708 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: this is a lot of people want to do work 709 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: that look grant glamorous, and most of the works that 710 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,919 Speaker 1: needs to be done is really unglamorous. Is me neal, 711 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: it's it takes. It does take a long time. Even 712 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: if you only have half an hour times a week, 713 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: then they take years for you to build the connections 714 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: that you want to do. But one of the um 715 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: this month for August our seeing is Forget the Police 716 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: hashteg STP and UH. We are learning all about police 717 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: abolition and the idea of abolishing the police and finding 718 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: me alternatives to police. And one of the really tangible 719 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: tasks that we're having our members work on is seeing 720 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: as they can get their whole block, their whole neighborhoods 721 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,240 Speaker 1: block to agree to a thirty day ban on calling 722 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: the police into their neighborhoods. And so we want people 723 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: through that process. Part of it, how it first starts 724 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: as assessing the needs in your community. Right, what do 725 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: people think they need to call the police for. What 726 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: we find out when people assess those needs is that 727 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: those the police usually don't solve those needs, right or 728 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: they're not worth bringing somebody who with a gun in 729 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: right um, or that the needs can be taken care 730 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: of inside the community. Right. And so one of the 731 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,320 Speaker 1: needs is, um, you know we have we have people 732 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: on our blocks of mental health issues. Right. Um. There's 733 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: ways that we can address that without the police. So 734 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: we have people go through with their community and talk 735 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: to your neighbors. What are the needs here to me 736 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: that you would say you need police for and then 737 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: assess are there ways that you guys can fill it? 738 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: How how would you accomplish a thirty day ban on 739 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: calling the police? Um, and then actually doing it and 740 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: seeing what a police free block would look like for you? 741 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: Because we know that for black and block people, those 742 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: for people with mental illnesses. Um, as soon as you 743 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: involve the police in the situation, you're putting that person's 744 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: life in danger. And most of the things that we 745 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: call the police for are not something that if you 746 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: really pressed this on that we would say is worth 747 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: somebody's life. Even if you know your your car got stolen, right, 748 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: that's you know, people will say, yes, I'm going to 749 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: call the police on that. Um. But if you asked, 750 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: this person's died because they stow your car, you probably 751 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: say no. I would hope you reasonable person hopefully would 752 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: say no. Yeah. I think that's such a good But 753 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: you never know in the United States. Uh. But but 754 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: you know you can walk through and say, okay, what 755 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,320 Speaker 1: do we do is somebodice cart Well, you can file 756 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: the police to report separately, and there's a non emergency 757 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: your community, right And a lot of folks don't know 758 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: that there's a non emergency line you can call to 759 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't put someone else's life in danger. I think 760 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: that's a really great example. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah. 761 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: I think one last question, so I'm just curious if 762 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: you could talk me through what has the response been 763 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: like for a project like safety Pinbox. I certainly have 764 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: seen instances of people kind of using this political and 765 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,839 Speaker 1: social climate that we are in too. I don't want 766 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: to say any names, but collect money for perhaps where 767 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 1: that money than goes someplace where you're not actually sure 768 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: or sure where it goes, or what he name names 769 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: on the same names. I just I just don't want 770 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: to get a million on Twitter being like, how dare 771 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: you slam already? If you could talk me through what 772 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: has been the response that's um to safety pinbox. It 773 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: was interesting people that people have issues with us that 774 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: they don't have with major organs that actually do squander money. Um. 775 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,320 Speaker 1: So we had all these like critiques and stuff literally 776 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: the day we watched you know, before we had even 777 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: sent out any products, particularly from white men. People were 778 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,839 Speaker 1: very concerned about like what are you doing with all 779 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 1: the money, Like you guys shouldn't pay yourself and all 780 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: of you should give orders and who are very up front? 781 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:56,720 Speaker 1: Where a business? We're not a nonprofit like boom um, 782 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of welfare queen trope stuff happening, 783 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: you know where people basically were like actually, like we 784 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: were going to squal under the money and so it 785 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: was funny people would be like, oh, well you need 786 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: to get to the A C. L U who you 787 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: know is trash now or um, oh you should give 788 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: all of your proceeds the Black Lives Matter. I was like, 789 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: that's interesting, do you know where their money goes? And 790 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: then people don't write um and so there was all 791 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: of this scrutiny on us placeisely because we made the 792 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: decision to be a business instead of a nonprofit, and 793 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: also because people white folks expect black folks to educate 794 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: them on their own problems for free, which is slavery. 795 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: Like you need like to work for you for free 796 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: to unlearn the white freens that you learn, so you 797 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: could get me to work for you for free. What 798 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,399 Speaker 1: what are we? What are we? What are we in here? 799 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: You know? It was so ridiculous, But I'll say we 800 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: got tons, We got multiple hit pieces written on us 801 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: by quote unquote liberal white dudes who had freaking Patreon 802 00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: accounts of like tens of thousands of dollars, right, so um, 803 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: But I will say that all changed the day we 804 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: started giving out money, which was months too. And it 805 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: was interesting as we got covered by some pretty mainstream 806 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: um outlets and publications, particularly when we had a really 807 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: good piece published in New York Magazine and in My 808 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: Mad which was one of the first outlets to do 809 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: a hit piece on us, actually two months before that. 810 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,359 Speaker 1: Then you see, all of a sudden, now that we've 811 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 1: become respectable to white people, and like we've been so 812 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: assigned by all these white women and like these different platforms, 813 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: Like all of a sudden, people who did not uh 814 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: mess with us at all at the beginning, did not 815 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: support us at all the beginning, like oh now we 816 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,839 Speaker 1: want to partner. Now we want to you know, do 817 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: this and that, because now they think that we can 818 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: give them some form of credibility. But we just tried 819 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,320 Speaker 1: to say true to our visions at the very beginning, 820 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: and we've given out over a hundred thousand dollars directly 821 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: two black women congratulated since the beginning of Genuinely, that's incredible. 822 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: I don't understand how people get off on, you know, 823 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: saying that you should be doing this for in a 824 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: nonprofit way. I'm thrilled that the value you are providing 825 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: is valued by this economy, right, that it's actually producing money, 826 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: and that you're putting that money where you see fit, 827 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: because that's how it should be. That to me is 828 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 1: like capitalism doing its job for a change, right. And 829 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,240 Speaker 1: the thing is, I've never seen anybody ask what Tim 830 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,360 Speaker 1: Wise does with his PTP. Right. So it was mostly 831 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: white men who came after us, and then are our 832 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: membership is mostly white women, but also you know, pantcer 833 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,240 Speaker 1: nation people when we launched, people were trying to share 834 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: our safety can box stuff and pant suit nation and 835 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: admins kept deleting the post and then said that they 836 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't allow the post because we weren't telling the quote 837 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: unquote story right but yet like they were publishing other 838 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: people's businesses and stuff like that. So we definitely got 839 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: resistance from all from all sides. But now that we're 840 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: more established, now that we've given out a certain amount 841 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,839 Speaker 1: of money, UM, all of a sudden we've become legitimate 842 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,319 Speaker 1: in certain people's lives, which is really interesting for me 843 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: as an activist who was in this movement for years 844 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: right before and very controversially so UM before Take to 845 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: Pin Blocks ever happened, there are a lot of people 846 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,319 Speaker 1: who refused to recognize my work, particularly was calling out 847 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders and how that changed conversations within the presidential election, 848 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: who all of a sudden now want to get on 849 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: board because UM, our work has been credentialed in a 850 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: certain way by white people, white Organs, and white women, 851 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 1: and so we definitely see our work through safety Finboch. 852 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,120 Speaker 1: We also recognize that the activists that we support are 853 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: people that UM folks with folks wouldn't support regularly anyways. 854 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 1: So we see ourselves as sort of a buffer to 855 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: collect white folks money um and give it to people 856 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: that they normally wouldn't support. That you're not going to 857 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: see on the TV doesn't have sense of Twitter followers. 858 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 1: But that's doing great work in their community. That's amazing mersa. UM. So, 859 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: where can our listeners find out more about what you're doing? Yeah, 860 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,720 Speaker 1: you can go to www. At safety pin box dot com. 861 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: Like you said, we have UM the sample task. You 862 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: can sign up for a subscription there. We have some 863 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,399 Speaker 1: other really cool things. We have our Safety pins Box 864 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: Kids Theories, which is an eight week series all about 865 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,839 Speaker 1: how to talk to your kids about race. It's like phenomenal. 866 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: And then we also have UM right now, Are Not 867 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: My President Boss, because there's been a lot of conversation 868 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 1: around how do we respond to hate crimes and there's 869 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: not these marching on the streets and you know Trump presidency. 870 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,720 Speaker 1: You can go check out Are Not My President Box 871 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,160 Speaker 1: and it's that's the box that includes all of the 872 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: information around creating safety plans and also has a really 873 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 1: cool task in there about how do you talk to 874 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: your kids about Trump? And what Trump's presidency means. So 875 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,760 Speaker 1: there's tons of resources and content um on our website. 876 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: When we come back, we're gonna talk through some more 877 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: ways that you can really be a good ally and 878 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: help take down this thing called white supremacy. And we're back, 879 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:17,319 Speaker 1: and now I want to talk a little bit more 880 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: about how white women can take some more responsibility for 881 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,719 Speaker 1: ending white supremacy and really kind of owning that it's 882 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: a thing that we live with. So first, again, I 883 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: know this might be hard to do because it requires 884 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: some looking within and some introspection, but really acknowledge your 885 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: own complicity. Uh, white women voted for Trump. I know 886 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 1: we say this time and time and time again, but 887 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a really, really really important number, and 888 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: it's a really really important thing to just own and 889 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: sit with. And I think there's this immediate temptation for 890 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: white folks who didn't vote for Trump, for instance, of 891 00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 1: which there are lots of us to say, Yeah, but 892 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:00,919 Speaker 1: I'm not one of those white women. I don't even 893 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: know those white women. I don't even hang out with 894 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: those white women, or I don't even understand those white women. 895 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,120 Speaker 1: How can I begin to take responsibility for that? And 896 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 1: then I would argue, who better to persuade those white 897 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: women who have bought into this repackaged white supremacy to 898 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: point out three point oh five point out wherever we're at, 899 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,799 Speaker 1: that is two thousand seventeen and help make the connection 900 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,560 Speaker 1: for our fellow white folks between how marching in the 901 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: street with that tiki torch isn't all that different than 902 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,120 Speaker 1: make America great again? Right? And I'm so glad you 903 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 1: brought that up, because I can't do that, right, I'm 904 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,239 Speaker 1: a black woman. I will have no I don't feel 905 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,399 Speaker 1: like I would have any chance of converting women like that. Yeah, 906 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: someone who presents white is going to have a much 907 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: easier time than me black woman with natural hair, who's 908 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, wearing a hands off aside a T shirt 909 00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: to convince them that they that they got us, that 910 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 1: they've gone down a bad path. And not to mention 911 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to because a minorities are tired of 912 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 1: fighting these fights and be the folks who are being 913 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,279 Speaker 1: persecuted on the receiving end of injustice. It's not on 914 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: them to change the oppressor. And so I think it 915 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: really just lights a fire under my butt to think 916 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,440 Speaker 1: of as a white woman, How can I talk to 917 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,879 Speaker 1: white people more, not just donating to causes, although those 918 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,880 Speaker 1: are good things to do too, but not just working 919 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,239 Speaker 1: with people of color, not just working on behalf of 920 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,360 Speaker 1: and four those folks. How can I talk to my 921 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: relatives who voted for Trump? How can I look inward 922 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,680 Speaker 1: into my community, into my neighborhood talking to my lift 923 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,600 Speaker 1: driver on the way to the studio today about you know, well, 924 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,960 Speaker 1: why do you feel like the Black Lives Matter movement 925 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 1: is racist? Tell me more about that, like why do 926 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,320 Speaker 1: you feel about having those conversations with other white folks? 927 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,320 Speaker 1: And I think that goes back to something that Marissa 928 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: said when she mentioned one of the tips for this 929 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,719 Speaker 1: month was too if you're a white person and talk 930 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: to the other white people in your neighborhood and get 931 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,880 Speaker 1: them to, you know, sign on to not calling the police. 932 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,880 Speaker 1: That the idea of how of having a white asking 933 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: a white person to talk to another white person about 934 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,960 Speaker 1: white supremacy, that sounds really hard. That is a high ask. 935 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,000 Speaker 1: And I think if you aren't really dedicated to dismantling 936 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: this and understanding how it shows up in our in 937 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: our lives and in our spaces and in our world, 938 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,440 Speaker 1: it's gonna take those hard asks right, working with people 939 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: of color and showing up as a woke ally probably 940 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,879 Speaker 1: feels like it feels. It feels good talking to your 941 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: racist auntie, who you've been, you know, spending years and 942 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,280 Speaker 1: years ignoring her racist jokes at Thanksgiving for twenty years. 943 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: That is hard. That is hard, definitely. And you know 944 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,640 Speaker 1: who can help is Jodi Pico, who you might know 945 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,680 Speaker 1: as being the kind of author of a good beach 946 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: read that You're racist Auntie enjoys reading at the beach. Uh. 947 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:58,000 Speaker 1: She also, in addition to her incredibly lovely uh, I 948 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,480 Speaker 1: think it's mostly fiction writing that she's been a part 949 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:05,000 Speaker 1: of pennd this op ed for Time Magazine, which will 950 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 1: make sure to include in the show notes. And let 951 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,720 Speaker 1: me tell you, Jodi Pico demonstrates and sort of models 952 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: what it looks like to be a white woman talking 953 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 1: to other white folks about her own revelations on race 954 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: and coming to not just confront racism but also acknowledge 955 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 1: her complicity and her responsibility in changing it. In that 956 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 1: Time op ed, she wrote, Here's the grievous mistake I 957 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 1: had made for the majority of my life. I assumed 958 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,439 Speaker 1: that racism is synonymous with bias. Yet you could take 959 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 1: every white supremacist and ship them off to Mars, and 960 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,800 Speaker 1: you'd still have racism in the world. That's because racism 961 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,520 Speaker 1: is systemic and institutional, but it is both perpetuated and 962 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: dismantled in individual acts. So what she really goes on 963 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,880 Speaker 1: to elaborate is the systemic ways in which white privilege 964 00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,759 Speaker 1: is a thing, which is the basic baseline. We should 965 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,600 Speaker 1: do a whole episode on my privilege. That's really the 966 00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,839 Speaker 1: baseline conversation. We have to meet folks where they are 967 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,480 Speaker 1: on this sometimes and say, as she goes on to right, 968 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,279 Speaker 1: it's more challenging to see the tail winds of racism, 969 00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 1: not the overt stuff, but quote the ways that being 970 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,840 Speaker 1: white makes it easier to achieve success. We like to 971 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,280 Speaker 1: believe that we succeed because we worked hard or because 972 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,280 Speaker 1: we were smart. It's harder to wrap our heads around 973 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,480 Speaker 1: the idea that the reason we might have a job 974 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 1: or have gained admission to a college is a direct 975 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 1: result of the fact that a person of color was 976 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,160 Speaker 1: never given that opportunity. I think that's so, so, so powerful. 977 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,280 Speaker 1: Um again, when you look back at that racism index, 978 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: saying things like you know, they just need to work harder. 979 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 1: I worked hard, or you know, things like that. She 980 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,560 Speaker 1: that that really nails why those comments don't actually get 981 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 1: at the root of what white supremacy actually is. Right, 982 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 1: That systemic acknowledgement of yes, it's at the core of 983 00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: our history in the United States of America is also 984 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,439 Speaker 1: pervasive and lots of ways across the globe. And these 985 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,480 Speaker 1: are systemic, sort of baked in institutions that we can 986 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,320 Speaker 1: also make changes on in an individual basis. But instead 987 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: of you know, white folks focusing on helping people of color, 988 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,320 Speaker 1: we got to turn around and talk to our fellow 989 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,000 Speaker 1: white folks if we're going to really dismantle the institutions 990 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,160 Speaker 1: of white supremacy totally. Because look at again, look at 991 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,960 Speaker 1: Charlotte's Ville. You know, I am just so struck by 992 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,080 Speaker 1: that interview with the you know, Charlotteville's Charlotte wille Killer's mother, 993 00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: where it was just clear she had not really checked 994 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 1: in about what kind of toxic stuff her son was 995 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: up to. And so talk to your son's talk to 996 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,719 Speaker 1: your daughters, talk to your cousins and your your you know, 997 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,359 Speaker 1: your husband's. Don't just let something toxic Bester within them 998 00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,400 Speaker 1: because it's uncomfortable to talk about. Right, if we had 999 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,520 Speaker 1: experienced the same kind of tragedy, except it was I 1000 00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 1: don't know, a Muslim American and instead of a car 1001 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,880 Speaker 1: being driven into a crowd, it were an explosive device, 1002 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,840 Speaker 1: we would be blaming his friends and family for not 1003 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,839 Speaker 1: alerting the police. But instead, because this is a white perpetrator, 1004 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,440 Speaker 1: and because this is an act of racist violence, we 1005 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,680 Speaker 1: don't treat that like the terrorism that it really is. 1006 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 1: And that's that's a problematic framing in my opinion, that 1007 00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,640 Speaker 1: has everything to do with race. And that's really quite 1008 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 1: similar this idea that letting something like racism fester because 1009 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 1: you assume it's benign or you assume it's not going 1010 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: to kill someone or harm someone else, is really problematic 1011 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,520 Speaker 1: and it's something that April Harder, a licensed counselor and 1012 00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,320 Speaker 1: social worker, wrote about on medium dot com when she 1013 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,880 Speaker 1: wrote the blog post how America spreads the disease that 1014 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:46,160 Speaker 1: is racism by not confronting racist family members and friends. 1015 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: She writes, racism is complex and scope because it is 1016 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,600 Speaker 1: both a mental illness and a value. In other words, 1017 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: it is a valued, sheltered and protected mental illness. One 1018 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,560 Speaker 1: might even say it has been incubated and allowed to 1019 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 1: fester throughout the course of American history. She goes on 1020 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,760 Speaker 1: to write, quote, like all illnesses, it needs to be 1021 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,480 Speaker 1: treated in order for it to be cured. The problem 1022 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,680 Speaker 1: is that we don't see racism as a problem because 1023 00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:12,640 Speaker 1: we don't see it for what it is, an infectious 1024 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,440 Speaker 1: disease that has been an epidemic plaguing our nation. I 1025 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: think that's so fascinating. I can't help but be reminded 1026 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,680 Speaker 1: of this movie from a few years ago, American History X. 1027 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: The guy who was completely a skinhead, right nas you know, 1028 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,240 Speaker 1: the works, and he does all this awful stuff throughout 1029 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: the movie, and then at the very end of the 1030 00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:37,200 Speaker 1: movie you realize that the early seed of his ideology 1031 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 1: is that his dad, who is presented as the stand 1032 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:44,600 Speaker 1: up grade guy, firefighter, community guy father, would make comments 1033 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: about black people at the dinner table, casual things, and 1034 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,720 Speaker 1: that seeing that that was an it's implied that that 1035 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 1: was an early seed that kind of grew into something 1036 00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,720 Speaker 1: that wasn't a comment here or there, but that was 1037 00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 1: v the violent right. I'm so glad you brought that up, 1038 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,960 Speaker 1: because it's about his rehabilitation and then his return home, right, 1039 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 1: and it is treated like going to rehab It's treated 1040 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,000 Speaker 1: as that kind of a thing where it's not you know, 1041 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,000 Speaker 1: it's not like, oh, I became friends with a black 1042 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,960 Speaker 1: guy and then it went away. It's like, no, it's 1043 00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: a it's a the same way that you would have 1044 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,160 Speaker 1: to get something out of your system through work. That's 1045 00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:26,360 Speaker 1: what it's presented as. It's getting rid of hate, right, 1046 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,040 Speaker 1: and that is admirable work. Um that a lot of 1047 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,560 Speaker 1: folks are doing, a lot of folks need to do. So. 1048 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,520 Speaker 1: A couple other quick takeaways, some actionable items for especially 1049 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,200 Speaker 1: the white women listening who are saying, Okay, I get it. 1050 00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,600 Speaker 1: I have to talk to my uncomfortable relatives who don't 1051 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:45,400 Speaker 1: want to talk about race. But that's part of my 1052 00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,360 Speaker 1: job here as a white woman to dismantle white supremacy. 1053 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,520 Speaker 1: What else can we do. There's an article that I 1054 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,920 Speaker 1: also want to just shed light on by Courtney ariel 1055 00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: Uh called for our white friends desiring to be allies, 1056 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,360 Speaker 1: and she just has some really quick, great tips that 1057 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:06,160 Speaker 1: I found very instructive, and the first was for white 1058 01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: women to listen more and talk less. And the way 1059 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,040 Speaker 1: I like to think of this is to pass the mike. 1060 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:16,120 Speaker 1: I love that, because, again, like we were talking about before, 1061 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 1: it can be a weird balance of either making it 1062 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,600 Speaker 1: all about you and your emotions and spraying your emotions everywhere, 1063 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,400 Speaker 1: or just feeling really resigned, like I'm so sad, what 1064 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,560 Speaker 1: can I do? Both of those are a way of 1065 01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,400 Speaker 1: sort of making it about you. But it's important is 1066 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,560 Speaker 1: to not make it about you. Yeah, and the first 1067 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,680 Speaker 1: temptation might be to go on Facebook and screen virtually right, 1068 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,400 Speaker 1: to just share every you know, every thought and feeling 1069 01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,840 Speaker 1: and tweet about it and write your own peace. But 1070 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,400 Speaker 1: there's also a really strong case for saying this is 1071 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,680 Speaker 1: not a moment for you and your brand to capitalize on, 1072 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,760 Speaker 1: which as a business owner was challenging to figure out 1073 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,000 Speaker 1: exactly how do we respond to these kinds of crises 1074 01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,640 Speaker 1: without saying that this is our issue and that we're 1075 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,120 Speaker 1: the experts on this. It's about passing the mic and 1076 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:09,600 Speaker 1: making sure that we're being megaphones, especially for women of color, 1077 01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,760 Speaker 1: people of color who are doing this work every single day, 1078 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,760 Speaker 1: not just when tragedy strikes, and not just when it's 1079 01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,520 Speaker 1: all in the headline, and not just when it's in 1080 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 1: style because it's in style to call out Nazis right now, 1081 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 1: it's in style to call out white supremacists right now. 1082 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,960 Speaker 1: It hasn't always been so fun. It hasn't always been 1083 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,480 Speaker 1: in vogue. You know. I've spent a good portion of 1084 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,880 Speaker 1: my life being called things like a social justice warrior, 1085 01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,280 Speaker 1: or you know, the PC police, or you know several 1086 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,280 Speaker 1: other things that I can't say on this show. It 1087 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,240 Speaker 1: hasn't always been a cool thing to stand up against 1088 01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 1: racism and against white supremacy. And I think it's a 1089 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,800 Speaker 1: good thing to do, but I think it's worth noting 1090 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,200 Speaker 1: that if you do things when it's easy to do, 1091 01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,080 Speaker 1: you should examine that other ways to be a true ally, 1092 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: other than simply not wanting to be racist, which Cordiney 1093 01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,840 Speaker 1: ariels rights, thank you for that, by the way, But 1094 01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,320 Speaker 1: she says being an ally requires you to educate yourself 1095 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,440 Speaker 1: about systemic racism in this country. So if you are 1096 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,480 Speaker 1: looking for a reading list, if you are aware that 1097 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,160 Speaker 1: you're unaware of this stuff, here's a great reading list 1098 01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,960 Speaker 1: that Cornarial actually gives you some some literature to start on. 1099 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:16,600 Speaker 1: And I'm sure, I'm sure we have stuff to add 1100 01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:20,920 Speaker 1: to this, but Michelle Alexander's The New Jim crow Tony 1101 01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,160 Speaker 1: you see Coats is Between the World and Me and 1102 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,560 Speaker 1: Claudia ran Keyes Citizen. There are really so many other 1103 01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,520 Speaker 1: great books and articles that will link to in the 1104 01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 1: notes below, but we encourage you to use your voice 1105 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,480 Speaker 1: and influence to direct folks to educating themselves and to 1106 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,480 Speaker 1: do the hard work of educating ourselves too. Yeah. I 1107 01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,919 Speaker 1: think it's hard work. I think it's important to do. Um. 1108 01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,280 Speaker 1: Just one note, when you get really fired out about 1109 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,440 Speaker 1: all the all these things you're reading, don't reach out 1110 01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,720 Speaker 1: to your friend of color unless their job is working 1111 01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,000 Speaker 1: in an anti oppression space. Don't reach out to your 1112 01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,440 Speaker 1: friend of color who doesn't work in the anti oppression 1113 01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,120 Speaker 1: space and ask them to do this lay of helping 1114 01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,840 Speaker 1: you unpack this for you. This is something that a 1115 01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:08,160 Speaker 1: journey that folks should be taking on their own, finding resources, googling, 1116 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: using resources that are out there like safety pin Box 1117 01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,040 Speaker 1: or other anti oppression trainings. But don't put this on 1118 01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,240 Speaker 1: your black friend because they're probably going through enough right now. Yeah, 1119 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,520 Speaker 1: and they're probably asked to do this more than they 1120 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:23,400 Speaker 1: should be. So just remember it's not on minorities to 1121 01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,960 Speaker 1: solve and end white supremacy and the other way I 1122 01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:31,360 Speaker 1: thought that we as well meaning white folks can be 1123 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,920 Speaker 1: let us stray. Sometimes it's something that Courtney points out 1124 01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:38,480 Speaker 1: in this article, which is the chiming in on social media, 1125 01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,560 Speaker 1: the idea that she writes, for one out of every 1126 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,520 Speaker 1: three opinions or insights shared by a person of color 1127 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,960 Speaker 1: in your life, try to resist the need to respond 1128 01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:52,280 Speaker 1: with a better or different insight about something that you've 1129 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 1: read or listened to as it relates to their shared opinion. 1130 01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:01,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes your unique take isn't all that helpful or appreciated. 1131 01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,320 Speaker 1: I would say I've definitely had times where you know, 1132 01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,439 Speaker 1: I'm trying to I'm trying to have a dialogue with 1133 01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,680 Speaker 1: other women of color and very well meeting, but like 1134 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: a little un appreciated. It's like, oh, well that's just 1135 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,200 Speaker 1: like blah blah blah, and we're all thinking, oh, well, 1136 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:20,880 Speaker 1: thanks for your insight. Um, just be a little rightful, yeah, listen, 1137 01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's hard. I get it. I'm the clean 1138 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,040 Speaker 1: interrupter over here. I get it. The instinct can be 1139 01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:29,480 Speaker 1: to jump in with your opinion and your thought and 1140 01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,480 Speaker 1: you're sharing sometimes asking questions and listening intently and just 1141 01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:37,800 Speaker 1: letting yourself learn is the best possible thing you can do, 1142 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:40,800 Speaker 1: and it's it's a balancing act because it can feel 1143 01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:44,440 Speaker 1: even writing this episode, coming up with this topic saying 1144 01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: wait a second. At one point, very early on after 1145 01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,440 Speaker 1: Charlotte's well, I asked my Twitter followers, what do you 1146 01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 1: think white women's involvement or white people's involvement in dismantling 1147 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,400 Speaker 1: white supremacy should be Because for a second I was 1148 01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,560 Speaker 1: hearing and reading white women, this is not your time 1149 01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,360 Speaker 1: to make this your moment to speak out? And I'm thinking, 1150 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,040 Speaker 1: is it not, like should I not take the initiative 1151 01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,280 Speaker 1: on this? But I ended up coming to the conclusion 1152 01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,479 Speaker 1: that I'm not going to capitalize on but we sure 1153 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,000 Speaker 1: as hell are going to take the time, and I'm 1154 01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,960 Speaker 1: I want to make it my prerogative to cover this 1155 01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,080 Speaker 1: topic thoroughly. Well, I think you just you just highlighted 1156 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,680 Speaker 1: kind of an agual debate of do we uplift women 1157 01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,600 Speaker 1: of color and folks of color or do we speak out? 1158 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,040 Speaker 1: Do white women speak out themselves? I think that's I 1159 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:35,800 Speaker 1: think I see a lot of folks wrestling with that. 1160 01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 1: I don't have the answer. I think it's about a balance. 1161 01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,880 Speaker 1: I think it's about speaking up and using your white 1162 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,360 Speaker 1: privilege when you can in a way that it's not 1163 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,200 Speaker 1: making it about you, that is not capitalizing, that's certainly 1164 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,680 Speaker 1: not taking money because of the suffering of folks of color, 1165 01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:51,640 Speaker 1: um that should go what that's saying, But in a 1166 01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:53,720 Speaker 1: way that is that is brave, and that is real 1167 01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:57,080 Speaker 1: and authentic. I also think that they're not mutually exclusive. 1168 01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,439 Speaker 1: I always like to say lift as you climb, which 1169 01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,280 Speaker 1: is a phrase that's been involved in the social justice movement, 1170 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,000 Speaker 1: especially on behalf of women of color for a long time. 1171 01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:10,280 Speaker 1: I learned when I saw it imprinted on a banner 1172 01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,240 Speaker 1: at the National Museum of African American History and Culture 1173 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,800 Speaker 1: here in d C. But lifting as you climb, to me, 1174 01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,280 Speaker 1: is about, yeah, do the work, make your voice heard, 1175 01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,280 Speaker 1: but make sure you're bringing women of color up with you, 1176 01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,160 Speaker 1: and you're make, you know, making sure that their voices 1177 01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:26,680 Speaker 1: are heard too. I think I dare to say that 1178 01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,360 Speaker 1: this podcast is a pretty fine example of that in action. 1179 01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,120 Speaker 1: I hope so, right, I hope so. I think so. 1180 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,560 Speaker 1: I think we can always strive to continue to learn 1181 01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:41,800 Speaker 1: and grow together. That's our artificial motto. Now, these are 1182 01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,640 Speaker 1: just some of the ways that you can take practical 1183 01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,400 Speaker 1: instructive action and white supremacy, and for us women in 1184 01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,920 Speaker 1: particular to own the ways in which women have always 1185 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,360 Speaker 1: been a part of white supremacy here in the United 1186 01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:58,800 Speaker 1: States and beyond. And I really want to thank you 1187 01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,040 Speaker 1: our listeners for or leaning into the discomfort that can 1188 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:06,080 Speaker 1: be this topic, and for listening with hopefully open minds 1189 01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:10,320 Speaker 1: and hearts and understanding that it's our intention here at 1190 01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,919 Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You to not shy away from 1191 01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:17,480 Speaker 1: really tough, early complicated issues like this and somehow hopefully 1192 01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,640 Speaker 1: package it together in a in a research driven and 1193 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,600 Speaker 1: actionable snippet for you to to consume on your way 1194 01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,760 Speaker 1: to work or back. Yes, you want to hear from 1195 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:29,680 Speaker 1: all of y'all out there, whether you're a white lady 1196 01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,560 Speaker 1: who's sort of grappling with this, whether you're a set up, 1197 01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,240 Speaker 1: piste off person of color. Because I'm there with you 1198 01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:37,440 Speaker 1: much of the time, we want to hear from you. 1199 01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:39,960 Speaker 1: How has white supremacy played out in your life? What 1200 01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:42,120 Speaker 1: are some ways that you've been tackling it, How are 1201 01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,400 Speaker 1: you dealing with it? You can reach us on Instagram 1202 01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,960 Speaker 1: at Stuff Mom Never Told You, on Twitter at Mom 1203 01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast or via email at mom stuff, at how 1204 01:07:50,280 --> 01:08:01,080 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. There to roo