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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast. We're back

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Speaker 1: with John Greenwald Jr. His latest book is called Inside

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Speaker 1: the Black Vault. Will take calls with John next hour

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Speaker 1: as well. John, in your career, what is ben what

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Speaker 1: you would believe to be the most amazing UFO case

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Speaker 1: or piece of paper you've ever seen. It's a hard

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Speaker 1: question to answer when I get asked that, because because

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Speaker 1: there's quite a few when it comes to the government,

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Speaker 1: for me, it's the overall way that the government handles UFOs.

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Speaker 1: I think that that is the number one for me.

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Speaker 1: So I know that doesn't answer your question, but it's

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Speaker 1: something that needs to be pointed out because to me,

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Speaker 1: that is the most amazing part of this story on

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Speaker 1: how easy it is to debunk that quote unquote company line.

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Speaker 1: If I started to have to pick individual cases, one

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Speaker 1: of my personal favorites definitely at the top is what

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Speaker 1: got me personally interested in all of this, which is

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six Iran incident. Not a document that I

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Speaker 1: claimed to have discovered. It's been around for quite a

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Speaker 1: few years in the UFO community, but it was the

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Speaker 1: first government document that I had read when I was

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Speaker 1: fifteen years old as a first to kind of a

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Speaker 1: first timer in the UFO field, and I came across

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Speaker 1: that document and I was absolutely hooked. And for those

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Speaker 1: who aren't aware of the incident, I mean that this

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Speaker 1: is something you should definitely take a few minutes read

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Speaker 1: the four pages and ask yourself, is this a threat

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Speaker 1: to national security? And I think that this one case

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Speaker 1: that happened in nineteen seventy six in Iran, where one

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Speaker 1: UFO turned into actually four different UFOs. One looks like

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Speaker 1: it may be either landed on Earth or potentially hovered

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Speaker 1: above cast a large light on the ground, made aggressive

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Speaker 1: maneuvers to two separate F four phantom jets, was able

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Speaker 1: to shut down both of those F four phantom jets

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Speaker 1: seemingly at ill And it's an extraordinary case. The most

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Speaker 1: interesting thing about it though, and of course I just

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Speaker 1: very much put it in a nutshell for you, But

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Speaker 1: the most amazing aspect to this case is that you

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Speaker 1: can read one percent about it. And what I mean

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Speaker 1: by that is it's not classified, and that and what

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Speaker 1: a great case it is, a great case it is,

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Speaker 1: It absolutely is, and I think that the most extraordinary

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence though about it is the fact that

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Speaker 1: the government did not classify it. And why that becomes

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Speaker 1: important is that when you juxtapose that case and how

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Speaker 1: amazing it is that in nineteen seventy six technology that

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Speaker 1: far surpasses even technology that we know about in twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen where you can strategically shut down and then turn

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Speaker 1: back on a flying jet in the air. That's that's

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Speaker 1: some amazing feats there, And it seemed to be intelligently controlled,

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't a glitch or it wasn't a coincidence

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Speaker 1: that it happened on two separate f fours, which automatically

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Speaker 1: or at least you know, unless there's astronomical odds that

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Speaker 1: you had two malfunctions, but pretty much rules out that

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Speaker 1: it was a coincidence. And so you have this in

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Speaker 1: what appears to be an intelligently controlled craft exploit, showing

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Speaker 1: this technology that we just don't have, and the fact

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Speaker 1: that the government does not classify it. Juxtaposed that with

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Speaker 1: the top secret documents that are blacked out from top

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Speaker 1: to bottom, it makes you really wonder what's underneath that

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Speaker 1: top secret black that they don't want you to see.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if one that you can read is so extraordinary,

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Speaker 1: what the heck is so top secret? Isn't an amazing too?

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Speaker 1: How j Ellen Heineck, the late j Ellen Heineck in

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Speaker 1: the History Channel has a show out now called Project

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Speaker 1: blue Book where he was the consultant the Project Blue

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Speaker 1: Book and was a skeptic about UFOs until later on

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Speaker 1: in his career he began to realize there's something to this.

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Speaker 1: Then he became a staunch believer. Yeah. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that that is a very overlooked part of history that

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Speaker 1: I hope the History Channel series will motivate people to

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Speaker 1: learn a little bit more about him, because, out of

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Speaker 1: everybody involved in Project blue Book, in the twenty plus

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Speaker 1: year study that they looked into UFOs and tried to

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Speaker 1: figure out, you know what they were, they're not a

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Speaker 1: threat to national security and so on, he goes in

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Speaker 1: there to debunk and then through the progression of the

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Speaker 1: investigation he realizes as a scientist that that debunking approach

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Speaker 1: that he had was wrong. That he as a scientist

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Speaker 1: looked at the evidence, evaluated the evidence, and saw enough

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Speaker 1: that he left the Project Bluebook era and went on

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Speaker 1: to create his own UFO organization took UFOs seriously and

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Speaker 1: essentially became this believer. That to me is extraordinary because

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Speaker 1: you have to look at u scientist who did take

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Speaker 1: the time to sit down, evaluate the evidence and see

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Speaker 1: what it was all about. In this day and age.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to talk bad about anybody by name, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but in this day and age with scientists, those biggest

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Speaker 1: names that are denouncing the UFO field of research are

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Speaker 1: the ones that probably have not really taken a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of time to look into it. Did wi Kinick

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Speaker 1: did right? So what we have to do is we

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Speaker 1: have to get somebody in this day and age like

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Speaker 1: Kahinik who has that background to really sit down, not

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Speaker 1: be the television skeptic that is notorious for coming on

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Speaker 1: and saying, ah nah, that's you know, a blurry bug

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Speaker 1: or a figment of somebody's imagination. You know, the standard

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Speaker 1: debunking lines. But we have to look at documented historical

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Speaker 1: fact that when a scientist does evaluate the evidence, they

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Speaker 1: walk away saying, hey, look there's something here, we really

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Speaker 1: need to look at it. And I think the case

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Speaker 1: that turned it around for him and here he's the

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Speaker 1: one who called it swamp gas and haunted him for

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Speaker 1: he hears. But it was the Lonnie Zamora, the police

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Speaker 1: officer from Sokorral, New Mexico. That case I think turned

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Speaker 1: Heinick around. I think it did. Yeah, I think that

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Speaker 1: is believed to be the one that did turn him around.

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Speaker 1: I produced a show for the History Channel. We recreated

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Speaker 1: the Lonnie Zamora case and the craft that landed that

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Speaker 1: he saw with the beings that came out, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I got a very in depth look in that just

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Speaker 1: by creating that History Channel show, and even though I

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Speaker 1: knew kind of about the case, we really dug in

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Speaker 1: and looked at all the details. And it's extraordinary. When

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Speaker 1: you have a law enforcement officer who sees something like that,

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Speaker 1: like a craft that comes down with bodies that leaves

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Speaker 1: physical impressions in the ground, that's important enough. But then

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Speaker 1: when you have a scientist that come in and evaluates

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Speaker 1: the evidence from a scientific standpoint and walks away, and

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Speaker 1: that's a turning point. I think that that's a very

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Speaker 1: important part of this whole era with Project Bluebook, and

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Speaker 1: I deal with that quite a bit in the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the book. But one thing that I would point

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Speaker 1: out to you upfront, is that from a scientific standpoint

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Speaker 1: that and I liken it to the Cure for cancer,

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Speaker 1: that if you do a thousand experiments for the cure

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Speaker 1: for cancer and only one or two shows promise, you

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Speaker 1: don't just abandon it and say, Bob, you know what,

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Speaker 1: we didn't get it, so forget it. We're never going

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Speaker 1: to look again. That's not how that works. That Project

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Speaker 1: Bluebook looked at over twelve thousand cases. It's argued how

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Speaker 1: many were unexplained, but the government stories that there were

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Speaker 1: seven hundred and one that remained un All you need

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Speaker 1: is one. Actually, that's what That's what my whole point is.

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Speaker 1: From a scientific standpoint, it doesn't matter how big or

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Speaker 1: small the percentage is. As long as there's some sliver

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Speaker 1: of promise, you have to keep going at it. If

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Speaker 1: they explained one hundred percent across the board and it

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Speaker 1: was simply a waste of time, sure we'd probably be

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Speaker 1: having a different discussion. But from a scientific standpoint, you

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Speaker 1: just can't do that, and you can't dismiss the whole

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Speaker 1: field just because the quote unquote majority were explained. And

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Speaker 1: I think Heinik as a scientist, was brought in to

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Speaker 1: say hey, look, these are all explainable. But with his

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Speaker 1: background and his approach, he realized as the years went on,

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Speaker 1: these aren't explainable, and he started pushing back to you

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Speaker 1: at the government saying, we can't explain these. There was

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary find. I've gone through a lot of the

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Speaker 1: Blue Book papers on an official level, but there was

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary find by a investigator who I wrote about,

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Speaker 1: by the name of Rob Mercer, and he came across

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Speaker 1: documents from one of the Project blue Book personnel officers

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Speaker 1: who after he had left Blue Book because Blue Book

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Speaker 1: was shutting down. He took a bunch of souvenirs with

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Speaker 1: him in the form of documents, reports, photographs, film reels,

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Speaker 1: and books, and he took them home. They were all unclassified,

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Speaker 1: there was nothing bad. He wasn't stealing them. They were

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Speaker 1: they were going to be put in the trash, and

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Speaker 1: long story short, I had come across Rob's find and

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Speaker 1: Rob himself a few years ago and saw the documents,

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Speaker 1: and I've put them all on the Black Vault dot com.

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Speaker 1: I recommend everyone to go download them. But it showed

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Speaker 1: an inside look at how they dealt with the UFO

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Speaker 1: cases during Project blue Book. And I'm here to tell

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Speaker 1: you it was a joke to some of these ranking

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Speaker 1: officers who were going out there investigating these sightings, even

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Speaker 1: by fellow military officers. One example was a ranking military

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Speaker 1: officer was investigating two airmen sightings and he called them imbeciles.

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Speaker 1: He called them jerks in these official reports. And needless

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Speaker 1: to say, these were not in the quote unquote official files.

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Speaker 1: These were put in the trash and this Project Blue

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Speaker 1: Book officer took him home with them, and they sat

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Speaker 1: in a garage for decades, and Rob came across him.

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Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary story. It was one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: stories I think I've ever heard. But what I walked

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Speaker 1: away from seeing those documents was that it was the

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Speaker 1: nail in the coffin. Project Bluebook was not in an

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Speaker 1: investigation at all. It was an attempt to explain away

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Speaker 1: UFOs and essentially get the public to stop asking questions

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Speaker 1: and to lose interest. Exactly. And John, the Lonnie Zamora

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Speaker 1: case happened in nineteen sixty four, five years before we

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Speaker 1: landed on the Moon. I originally thought maybe what he

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Speaker 1: saw was a lunar lander and two astronauts and they

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Speaker 1: were testing the thing out in the New Mexico Desert. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought that. Yeah, and it's not a bad thing

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Speaker 1: to think. I've heard that theory as a potential explanation.

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Speaker 1: The problem is is that after all these years, you

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Speaker 1: would think that if that were the case, that NASA

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Speaker 1: would come out, or that documents would come out. Maybe

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Speaker 1: NASA doesn't want to waste their time saying well, look

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Speaker 1: the Zamora cases XYZ, but something would present itself that

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Speaker 1: they were testing something in Skoro or around Skoro that

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Speaker 1: Lois saw. And nothing has ever that I know of, anyway,

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Speaker 1: has ever been produced to show that that's a logical

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Speaker 1: or explanation. Plus, I don't think astronauts would have scurried

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Speaker 1: back into the craft and took taken off when they

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Speaker 1: saw him exactly. Yeah, and so it's a good it's

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Speaker 1: a good theory, but it's one that I don't think

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Speaker 1: fits the bill. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM

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Speaker 1: every weeknight at one am Eastern, and go to Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast am dot com for more