WEBVTT - Rerun: How Fuel Cells Work 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.760 Be there and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.960 Johnathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio, 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:20.919 and I love all things tech and I am currently 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:27.120 hard at work putting together more podcasts about space stations. Uh. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.280 These take a long time because there's a lot of 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.800 stuff I have to look up, but also there's just 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.880 a lot of data, particularly about space stations that almost 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.120 happened but didn't, and I want to make sure I 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.680 cover all of them because I think it's fascinating stuff. However, 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.000 it means that I'm running a little behind. So rather 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.360 than go without an episode, I thought that we could 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.520 listen in on a classic one, and I thought I'd 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:58.960 go way way back. So Tech Stuff is several years 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.640 old now. It launched in two thousand eight, so we've 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.960 been around longer than some tech has. And one of 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.720 the early episodes we did was way back on June 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:13.840 twenty one, two thousand ten. How fuel cells work. This 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.319 is one of those technologies that people often turned to 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:22.480 and they look at that as a possible move forward 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.520 to get away from, uh, you know, carbon emissions with 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:32.720 vehicles in particular and fuel cells could do that if 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.600 we met some other very tough challenges, and so I 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.720 thought it would be fun to listen to this classic episode. 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:44.319 This is from the Crisp Palette era of tech stuff. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:49.240 How fuel cells work? Enjoy. Now let's tackle our subject, 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.600 which is how fuel cells work. Fuel cells the mystery, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:59.840 uh energy problem, savor of the future, or we would 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.520 we would hope anyway. Yeah, fuel cells are this, uh well, 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.080 it's it's kind of like a battery. You know. Let's 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:08.600 let's go ahead and kind of define what it does. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:13.760 It's an electrochemical energy conversion device. Yes, Actually, that's that's 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:15.639 sort of what I meant about mystery, because everybody talks 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.160 about how cool they are, but nobody really knows exactly 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.519 what they do. But they convert chemicals into electricity. That's 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.720 that's like a battery. Yeah, no, it is very much 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.720 like a battery. Others there are some differences which will 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.679 get into but in general a fuel cell. What most 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.600 people tend to know about fuel cells is one they 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.920 create electricity and to their byproducts are heat and water. Yes, 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.480 that's it tends to be what most people know about 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.800 apart from the people who specifically work in the fuel 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.680 cell industry, clearly they know a lot more than that. Well, 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.280 of course we always see that mainstream media, you know, 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.400 reporter going out to the back of the fuel cell 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.680 vehicle and putting a cup underneath the tailpipe and drinking 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.480 the water, right, And I think that sticks with us. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.679 That's why we we don't know that much more about it, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.359 because we go, huh, that's really cool. Yeah, because because 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:06.320 you think about that, you're like, well, if we have 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.280 this energy source that can create electricity and the only 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.120 byproduct really is heat and water, and you know, water 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.359 is not toxic. It's not like water is going to 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:20.520 be throwing out greenhouse gases into the atmosphere or polluting 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.239 in some other way, why don't we have more of these? 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.800 And really the answer to that question is that the 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:30.959 technology is not sophisticated enough and reliable enough, and most importantly, really, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.680 when you get down to it, cheap enough to do 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.800 on a widespread basis to allow us to to switch 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.200 to a fuel cell economy. So let's let's kind of 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.840 talk about what how it fuel cell works, what it does, 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.119 where it came from. Um. First of all, well, let's 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:49.320 talk about sir William Grove, Now, Sir William Grove, he's 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.040 the fellow who kind of invented fuel cells, if you will, 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.480 all right, he knew this was back in nine by 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.680 the way. He knew that if you if you uh 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.920 to some water and you ran an electric current through 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:08.280 the water, it would produce hydrogen and oxygen molecules of 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.200 water apart. Yeah, it's called electrolysis. And actually this this 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.760 tends to happen with various molecules. If you add enough 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.000 energy to the molecule, it tends to break the molecular 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.960 bonds and it will eventually break apart into its individual elements. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.880 Most molecules will do this if you if you pour 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.680 in enough energy. That's going to be another important point 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:33.440 later on. So Grove he theorized, well, if you if 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:38.080 you add electricity to water and you get hydrogen and oxygen. Uh, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.120 if you if you then combined hydrogen and oxygen, you 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.120 should get water and electricity, you know, because you know 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.200 it should be the same coming out as it is 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.520 going in. Right, So if you're yeah, So he's like, well, um, 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.640 how he ran some experiments and he created what he 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.240 called a gas voltaic battery and in this gas will 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.320 take battery. He then combined hydro ygen and oxygen and 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.279 he realized that he got water and he got free electrons, 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.560 which you know, if you direct free electrons through a path, 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:11.040 that's electricity. So he signed a little sign on the 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.440 side of the said electrons free. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.440 a protest held off the cell. Fifty years later you 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.680 get uh, Ludwig Mond and Charles Langer, and they're they're 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.000 the ones who coined the term fuel cell. Those are 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:30.200 the guys who actually found a fairly practical way to 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.360 do this, uh, that was easily repeatable, so you could 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.880 you could repeat the experiment improve Yes, something is happening here, because, 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.120 of course we know in science, just because you get 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.680 a result doesn't necessarily mean that you have proven your 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.279 hypothesis correct. You need to have a repeatable experiment that 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.560 can be done by anyone who has the facility to 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.560 do it at any rate um to prove that that 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.159 something really is going on. Yes, So that's where we 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.200 get into the fuel cells. And unlike battery, like a 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:05.920 battery is a self contained chemical reaction. Uh, and it 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.120 can and yeah, it's chemical reaction. It can very good. Well, 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:14.159 I mean nothing's going in, nothing's going out except electrons, right, yeah. Yeah. 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.279 The battery has chemicals inside it that react together. The 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.400 reaction produces electrons, and that is where we get, you know, 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.840 our little electric power from a battery. Fuel cells are 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:31.400 a little different. You can pour fuel into a fuel cell, 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.599 thus the name, and it will convert that fuel into 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.200 the water and the electricity. So as long as you 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.800 have a supply of hydrogen and a supply of oxygen 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.640 going into the fuel cell, and as long as the 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.920 membrane of the fuel cell and the other components remain 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.640 remain viable. We'll get into that in a little bit. Uh, 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.559 it should continue to to produce electricity. It's not gonna 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:59.200 It's not like it'll die after all the hydrogen runs out. 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.919 If you add more hyrogen and more oxygen, it should 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:08.240 continue to work, right. Okay, so we've covered the basics there. Uh, 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.520 let's let's talk. I'm gonna shift my notes around. I 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.640 actually have paper notes today. I usually don't do this. Uh. 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.720 Let's talk about the various components within a fuel cell. Okay, 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.280 we can do that all right. We've got the anode, yes, Uh, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.960 the anode. It that's the that's the negative post, not 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:31.440 meaning that. I know, I was trying to listeners. I apologize, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.760 I was finish. I mean, we all suffered for that 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.720 besides Chris. Um, no, no, no, it was good. So 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.360 that's what's conducting the electrons and that that get freed 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.040 from the hydrogen. So the anodes on one end. On 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.360 the other end is the cathode. Yes, that's the positive post. 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:53.559 So that's where the hydrogen. Uh. This, this is what's 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.440 conducting the electrons back from the external circuit. So I'm sorry, 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.400 We've got We've got the anode. That's where when the 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.320 electrons come out from the reaction, electrons go to the anode, 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:06.160 go into a circuit. So what electric motor or a 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.960 light bulb or whatever, right, Um, the electrons continue their 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.880 path once they go through that circuit to the cathode. Uh. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.680 Then we've got the electrolyte uh in the center. This 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:22.120 is a usually approach a proton exchange membrane. Thing of 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.520 the membrane is kind of like a force field. Now 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.200 this force field will Yeah, the force field will allow 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:34.439 positively charged ions to pass through, but will repel negatively 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:40.199 charged particles. So electrons have a negative charge they cannot 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.320 pass through the membrane. If they could pass through the membrane, 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.880 fuel cells would not work. It is the bouncer of 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.280 the fuel cell. Yes, you may not come in, but 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.600 we're not cool enough because you are negative exactly, but 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.840 the close enough. So the so the high hydrogen are 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:00.000 the hydrogen ions are positively charged because they have given 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.960 up an electron. All right, So now now essentially what 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.040 you have a hydrogen ion is essentially a proton. So 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.880 you've got a proton. Protons are positively charged. You've got 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.960 this puzzlingly charged element there. It can pass through the membrane. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.760 Now why would it pass through the membrane to get 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:21.120 to the other side. But what's on the other side oxygen, 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:27.240 and oxygen has a negative charge that it exactly, the 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:32.400 proton is attracted across the membrane to the negatively charged oxygen. 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.680 If if there were no negative charge, then the proton 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:40.720 would not necessarily migrate through the membrane. So, uh, when 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.680 it migrates to the membrane, it then combines with the oxygen, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.720 and uh, you get the two hydrogens the one oxygen together, 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.760 and then the electron that had passed through the circuit 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.360 Remember it passed from the anode through the circuit into 0:09:55.360 --> 0:10:00.120 the cathode. On that end, the two hydrogen atoms the 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.600 oxygen atom have combined into a molecule. The electron joins 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.440 that molecule, and that's when you get water. Right, So 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:09.520 you don't have any free electrons at the end of 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.280 this process. It all recombines on the cathode end, and 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:14.680 that's where you get the water. There's one other element 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.920 that's important with this, that's the catalyst, and this is catalysts. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.120 What they do is they help reactions, right, the thing 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.520 that makes it possible to react. Yeah, Otherwise you would 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.600 have to pour even more energy and in order for 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.000 this to to react, and it wouldn't be viable at all. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.880 So it's a special material and it it helps this 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:38.040 reaction of oxygen and hydrogen. And in most fuel cells 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.040 that you that people talk about, tends to be made 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.920 out of platinum nanoparticles. So a nanoparticle, of course is 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:49.719 insanely tiny, like tinier than the microscopic scopic scale, right, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.000 but it is on a thin sheet of materials um 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.840 with as much area as exposed as possible to facilitate 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.079 more reaction. Right. So it's almost like you've spy a 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.400 painted a sheet with platinum. And because you can imagine, 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.120 that's pretty expensive. Platinum is a precious metal. It's pretty rare. 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.280 It's hard to get your hands on it. Even when 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.520 you're talking about nanoparticles, which are really tiny. You're talking 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.640 about billions of nanoparticles. Like a nanoparticle is not going 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.160 to do much for you. Um, so, yeah, you definitely 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.680 want to maximize that service area in order to allow 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.440 the reactions between hydrogen and oxygen to to happen or 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.400 else your your fuel cell doesn't do anything all right, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.720 So you're pouring hydrogen in. You you're pumping oxygen in. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.439 When I say pouring, I'm really mean pumping, because you're 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:42.000 probably pumping hydrogen gas. You're pumping both into this fuel cell. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.960 They combine. You get the electrons, you get the water. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:50.120 So why don't we have lots and lots of fuel 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:54.319 cells already running all all of our power, all of 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.840 our electronics. You've already hit on it. Why is that? 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.320 What was that? The biggest one being the cost? That 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.400 would be a huge one. Yeah, the platinum, that kind 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.880 of it's simply not it's simply not practical. Right, Yeah, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.160 you get down to it, You're like, well, in a 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:12.040 in an ideal world, we cost would not be would 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.560 not even be a consideration, right, we would just be 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.160 talking about the fact that this is clean energy that 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.480 we have and uh, and we could run our cars 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.120 or other devices are homes, even powered plants, we could 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.040 run them on hydrogen and uh, and then we we 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.559 not pollute and we'd have a nice clean energy source. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.800 But it comes down to the fact that cost is 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.560 an element. It's not the only one, of course, the Yeah, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.679 the whole process of of splitting the water into two pieces. Yeah, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:45.880 but you know that's actually is I guess should be 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.600 the source of hydrogen more than anything else. Yeah, source 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.920 of hydrogen is a huge, huge problem. Hydrogen does not 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:57.160 It's plentiful, but not in its elemental form on Earth. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.600 It's usually combined with something else like oxygen to make water. 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.640 We we it's not like there's a hydrogen mind we 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.640 can go to and mind hydrogen pure hydrogen and use 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.800 that we when we we can get hydrogen from stuff 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.120 like hydrocarbon fuels or even water, as we pointed out 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.120 by breaking down compounds, right, which takes energy. So in 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.800 order to get this fuel cell fuel, you already have 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.120 to expend energy to create the fuel. So now you're 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.559 now you're looking at a fuel like an energy deficit situation. 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.439 Does it take more energy to create the fuel than 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.319 the energy you will get by using that fuel to 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.960 power a fuel cell? And as long as it takes 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.440 more energy for you to create the fuel than it 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.800 does to actually power whatever it is you're going to power, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.080 it doesn't make sense. We already have a fuel that 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.600 does this, by the way, gasoline. Gasoline, Actually, it actually 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.400 takes more energy to create a gallon of gas than 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.719 a gallon of gas can create through putting it through 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.400 a motor or whatever. Yeah, because gasoline is a pretty 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.960 inefficient fuel, it turns out, especially compared to a fuel cell. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.280 And you have to again look at the entire life cycle. 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:09.800 You're not just looking at, oh, well, how much how 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.959 much energy did it take to ship the gasoline from 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.040 the refinery to the uh to the gas station. It's 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.080 also how much energy did the refinery have to expand 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.600 in order to produce that gasoline. How much energy had 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.520 to be expanded to to get the oil out of 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.200 the ground to eventually become what would what would eventually 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:32.920 become gasoline. Um, it's really a big picture thing. And 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.840 that's that's the real problem with a lot of these 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.960 energy issues, is that once you start looking at the 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.800 big picture, you begin to realize, oh, this is this 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.400 is a buch more difficult problem than I originally imagined. 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.080 We'll be back with more in just a moment, to 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:55.360 talk more about fuel cells. Now, there are many different 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.680 kinds of fuel cells. Yeah, I thought I thought we 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.480 were getting ready to hit that, because one that we've 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:05.440 been talking about, I guess, probably without actually saying its name, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.600 is the polymer electrolyte membrane fuel cell, right, also sometimes 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.600 called the polymer exchange membrane fuel cell. But same thing. 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.960 Why membrane and the exchange. Okay, I got it, Yep, 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.680 that's it. They're used in cars a lot, right, Yeah, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.760 that that's kind of the stuff we're looking at cars. See. Now, 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.400 some of these fuel cells work really well at a 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:29.320 certain temperature range, and outside that temperature range they don't 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.560 work very well at all. Now, the polymer exchange has 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.720 a couple of different issues that make it not the 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.880 most ideal method of power generation within a car, And 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.280 I'll one of those is that Um, well, I mean 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.680 it's heat range is okay because it's it works best 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.880 somewhere around uh a hundred for you two degrees fahrenheit, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.720 so you could you would first have to heat your 0:15:57.760 --> 0:15:59.840 fuel cell up to this temperature for it to be 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.920 a to to work properly. So there there is a 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.360 warm up period. It's not like it's gonna work immediately 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.040 as you get in your car. One of the things 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.840 about the polymer exchange membrane fuel cell is that it 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.920 has to have a hydrated membrane. The membrane must remain hydrated, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.440 which means essentially wet. Alright, So if you live in Minnesota, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.440 you know the winners in Minnesota get really cold. And 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.480 when you get really cold and you got water, you 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.680 know what happens. It freezes. Yeah, it doesn't happen much 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.960 here in Atlanta, but up in Minnesota it could. Yes, 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.920 if the temperature fell far enough the water used to 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.040 hydrate that membrane. And remember the membrane is key to 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.320 this uh to this exchange. If the water could freeze, 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.760 that would make the membrane extremely brittle and it could 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.600 break and then you've got a broken fuel cell. Right, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.960 So that here's problematic. Yeah, that's a bit of an issue. 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.440 And there are other types of fuel cells. There's the 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.600 solid oxide feel. So yeah, this is this is one 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.760 of my favorites. This would not work well in the car. No, no, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:11.399 not at all. Um, simply the uh, simply because it 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.560 requires so much more in the way of temperature for 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.280 it to operate. Yeah, it operates best between seven D 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:24.600 and a thousand degrees centigrade. Yes, that's a that's pretty warm. Yeah, no, 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.280 it's pretty pretty steamy. But but steam that you mentioned 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.800 that see that that generates uh, you know steam as 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.040 a resulting that can be used to create electricity as well. Yeah, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.080 you can use the steam to generate too, to push turbines, 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.959 or you could even use the steam, well not just 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.680 or and you could use the steam to help heat 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.720 U the facility. So let's say it's in the dead 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.120 of winter. U, the steam coming from this reaction could 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.480 go back into the heating unit to try and keep 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.480 the plant warm so that you don't have to generate, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.840 you don't have to burn as much energy to keep 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:04.800 the the plant running right right now. Uh, they're not 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.680 as efficient or they're not it's it's not cost effective yet. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.520 The cost effectiveness of the solid oxide fuel cell. Um 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:18.800 that the target is four dollars per kilo. What right 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.000 now it's about ten times that is that four thousand 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.360 dollars per kill A what to run one of these things? Um, 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.760 that's a problem. Well. UM. I'd also like to point 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.840 out that the solid oxide fuel cells have been in 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.800 the news recently in a in a pretty big fashion. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.280 As a matter of fact, I believe we've talked about 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.920 one on this podcast not too long ago. The bloom 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:46.399 box Oh, the bloom Box bloom Energies. Bloom box fuel 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.639 cells are solid oxide fuel cells, and I don't know 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.879 that they run exactly the same way as the information 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.640 in our article about that on our side, slightly different process. 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.520 They probably do, because the ones that we're talking about 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:04.200 are mainly um. The solid oxide tends to often used 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.639 come in the form of coal, So you actually have 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.080 coal running a fuel cell, which you know you first 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:10.840 sit there and think like, WHOA, that's weird. I thought 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.000 we were going trying to get away from fossil fuels. 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.040 Not necessarily. In some cases we may have to use 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.680 fossil fuels to create the hydrogen or whatever the compound 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:20.920 is that we're going to use in the fuel cell, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.960 because hydrogen is not the only one, it's just the 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.080 most popular one. Um. But we may have to use 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.600 fossil fuels in that process to generate the fuel we 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.000 need to run to to make the fuel cells go. Um. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.400 There are other types as well. There's the alkaline fuel cell. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.080 That's the kind that we're that they that uh the 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.560 space race used quite a bit back in the sixties. Yeah, um, 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:47.240 not really use that much anymore. It's not it's not 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.240 as it's really expensive, it's not as reliable as some 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.800 of the other technologies. Plus it requires pure hydrogen and oxygen. Yeah, 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.000 pure hydrogen and oxygen is hard to get your hands on, 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.960 or at least the pure hydrogen is. Um. There are 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:05.159 fuel cells that can use hydrogen that's not pure, but 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.160 that also tends to take its toll on the membrane. 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.080 So again, the membrane is a is a fairly delicate 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.040 part of a fuel cell, and uh, if you damage 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.160 that that membrane, then the fuel cell is not gonna 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.760 work anymore. Also, I guess we should also point out 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.560 that a fuel cell, when we're talking about a fuel cell, 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:23.960 an individual fuel cell does not generate that much power. 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.760 It's when you have a bunch of fuel cells working together, uh, 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:34.200 that you can generate enough electricity essentially in an array. Yeah, 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.159 a fuel cell stack is usually what we call it. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.640 Uh we being those of us in the fuel cell industry, 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.840 say and journalists, Um, yeah, So an individual fuel cell 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.520 is like think of it. Like we talked about cell processors. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.240 A cell processor is just one part of a group 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.400 of processors that all work together, same sort of thing. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:58.320 Fuel cell is just one little electricity generation device that 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.040 works with several others to create enough electricity to actually 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.480 do something. But you also have the molten carbonate fuel cell, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:09.240 the phosphoric acid fuel cell, the direct methanol fuel cell. 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:14.600 These are all variations. Um. They all basically do the 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:16.520 same thing, but they're doing it through different ways, and 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.720 some of them have different operating temperatures, different parameters. Some 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.400 of them are more reliable than others, but they require 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.240 such a high operating temperature that you wouldn't want to 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.520 use in a car, Like you don't want to use 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.560 a solid oxide fuel cell on the car because you 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.359 would die. You would have to have such sheets some 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.439 sort of protective material to to shield you from the 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.199 heat that your car would weighe so much that it 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.680 wouldn't matter how much of the electricity you're generating, because 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:43.639 it wouldn't move anywhere. It's gonna say you you'd have 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.040 to use most of the power for your air conditioning. 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:48.720 You know. They either the air conditioning or just getting 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.280 the wheels to have enough torque to actually push that 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:57.119 incredibly heavy vehicle forward torque. Um. So then we have 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:02.199 the phosphoric acid fuel cell um and uh you know 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:06.480 those those are those a little smaller? Yeah, yeah, those 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.399 aren't those aren't as huge, but they have such a 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.440 long went warm up time. Yeah. So again if you've 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.480 tried to if used a phosphor I guess that jewel 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.919 cell in your car, you have to start warming up 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.200 your car an hour before you were leaving. So that's 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:22.080 not really practical. Yeah. And the direct methanol fuel cell, Uh, 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.360 again we're talking about it's not as efficient. It can 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:30.200 um use methanol, but since since the energy output isn't 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:34.480 as great, it's not really seen as a viable fuel cell. Yeah. 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:37.200 I've seen I've seen some methanol fuel cells out and about. 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.760 In fact, Uh, when I went to the c E 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.240 s in two thousand and eight. Um, I believe it 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.600 was Toshiba, if I'm not mistaken, had a methanol fuel 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.480 cell powered m P three player on display, which was 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.159 pretty cool. Um, you know it's not it's one of 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:54.919 those things where you're like, really, seriously, I have to 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.880 pour methanol in this thing. But yeah, I mean it's 0:22:57.880 --> 0:22:59.600 it was so small, you know, the size of an 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.520 MP th replayer that you know, I couldn't imagine empowering 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:07.240 you know, I'm building more a car. It's much more tiny. 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:08.840 But that's what they talk about when they talk about 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:11.040 the possibility of using fuel cells to power or say 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.960 laptop computers and things like that. Yeah, yeah, personal electronic devices, 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:16.880 that kind of stuff. It's still it still seems odd 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.120 to me that you would, you know, flip your laptop 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.520