1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:23,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Hey, Solvable listeners, we are hard at work on 2 00:00:23,756 --> 00:00:26,116 Speaker 1: new episodes of the show, but this week we wanted 3 00:00:26,156 --> 00:00:29,636 Speaker 1: to bring you something special that I am very excited about. 4 00:00:30,036 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: It's a sneak peak of Pushkin's newest show, Be Anti 5 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 1: Racist with Ibram x Kendy. You may have heard of 6 00:00:37,196 --> 00:00:39,876 Speaker 1: doctor Kendy from his most recent nonfiction work such as 7 00:00:39,876 --> 00:00:42,596 Speaker 1: Stamped and How to Be An Anti Racist, But for 8 00:00:42,636 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 1: those of you who haven't heard of him, he is 9 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:48,676 Speaker 1: not only an author, but professor, activist, and historian of 10 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:51,996 Speaker 1: race and discriminatory policy. At thirty four, he was the 11 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 1: youngest person ever to win the National Book Award for Nonfiction. 12 00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:58,916 Speaker 1: I personally find his writing very approachable and his concepts 13 00:00:58,916 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: of recognizing the assumptions of racism and ourselves easily digestible. 14 00:01:03,276 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 1: He not only discusses the basics of bias and anti racism, 15 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 1: but also provide optimistic solutions to fixed on broken system, 16 00:01:10,476 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 1: which is what we love here at Solvable. On his 17 00:01:14,756 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 1: new show, Be Anti Racist, doctor Kendey is continuing these 18 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:22,716 Speaker 1: necessary discussions on policies and practices that sustain injustice in 19 00:01:22,756 --> 00:01:26,556 Speaker 1: our society and how we can dismantle racism and build 20 00:01:26,556 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 1: a just, equitable world. His guests will include Julian Castro, 21 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:35,316 Speaker 1: Jamel Hill, Don Lemon, Heather c McGee, Mariam Kabba, and 22 00:01:35,436 --> 00:01:39,356 Speaker 1: many more. Today, we're sharing an excerpt of an interview 23 00:01:39,356 --> 00:01:42,676 Speaker 1: with Rebecca Cokeley, one of the country's leading voices on 24 00:01:42,756 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: disability rights. Doctor Kendy and Rebecca have a frank conversation 25 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:50,676 Speaker 1: on the intersections of ableism and racism in America, the 26 00:01:50,796 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: historic civil rights legislation governing both, and what we can 27 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:57,516 Speaker 1: all do to advocate for a better future for people 28 00:01:57,556 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 1: with disabilities. Okay, here's a preview. You can hear the 29 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:05,956 Speaker 1: full episode by searching for be Anti Racist wherever you're 30 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 1: listening right now. Welcome to Be Anti Racist in Action Podcasts, 31 00:02:21,636 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 1: where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and abolish racism, 32 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 1: how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas 33 00:02:29,876 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 1: and the destructiveness of racist power and policy. How to 34 00:02:34,156 --> 00:02:37,996 Speaker 1: free humanity through the unity of anti racist ideas and 35 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:43,556 Speaker 1: the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. We were 36 00:02:43,596 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 1: all born into a world of racist ideas, many of 37 00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:49,836 Speaker 1: which I myself consumed as a young man in New 38 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 1: York in Virginia. Throughout my life I've had to come 39 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:56,316 Speaker 1: to grips with some of the things that I imagine 40 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:59,396 Speaker 1: and thought were true about the world and the people 41 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: in it. And like all of us, I'm still learning 42 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 1: in my pursuit of understanding. I became an historian. I've 43 00:03:07,316 --> 00:03:11,116 Speaker 1: written books, been on TV, taught at universities, lectured around 44 00:03:11,156 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 1: the world. In the latest step in my journey is 45 00:03:14,156 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 1: to help you on yours, for us to keep growing together. 46 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:22,436 Speaker 1: On b Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the 47 00:03:22,476 --> 00:03:26,396 Speaker 1: impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern 48 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:33,396 Speaker 1: humans have never known, a just, inequitable world. You ready, 49 00:03:34,196 --> 00:03:49,196 Speaker 1: let's rollclusion finally come tumbling down. More than thirty years ago, 50 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 1: then President George Herbert Walker Bush signed the Americans with 51 00:03:53,476 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 1: Disabilities Act into law. It came after a long struggle 52 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: by disability activists to extend the protections guaranteed by the 53 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act. This act is powerful in its simplicity. 54 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:10,876 Speaker 1: It will ensure that people with this alies are given 55 00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:15,316 Speaker 1: the basic guarantees for which they have worked so long 56 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 1: and so hard. Independence, freedom of choice, control of their lives, 57 00:04:21,796 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 1: the opportunity to blend fully and equally into the rich 58 00:04:25,596 --> 00:04:30,556 Speaker 1: mosaic of the American mainstream. The signing of the ADA 59 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:33,596 Speaker 1: took place a lifetime ago, and it was the culmination 60 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:37,436 Speaker 1: of more lifetimes of struggle. But what kind of progress 61 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:41,796 Speaker 1: have we made? My guest today is Rebecca Cokeley, one 62 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:46,236 Speaker 1: of the country's leading voices on disability rights. I'm especially 63 00:04:46,276 --> 00:04:49,756 Speaker 1: impressed by how well she centers race in her analysis 64 00:04:49,836 --> 00:04:54,796 Speaker 1: and advocacy. She founded and directed the Disability Justice Initiative 65 00:04:54,956 --> 00:04:58,236 Speaker 1: at the Center for American Progress and served as the 66 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:03,676 Speaker 1: executive director of the National Council on Disability. Recently, Cokelely 67 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:06,556 Speaker 1: joined the Ford Foundation as the first program officer to 68 00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:10,436 Speaker 1: lead a US based disability rights for Foli Leo. She's 69 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:14,396 Speaker 1: also a California native, a mother, and someone who served 70 00:05:14,476 --> 00:05:17,276 Speaker 1: in the Obama administration from two thousand and nine to 71 00:05:17,356 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. The day I sat down to talk with 72 00:05:21,396 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 1: Rebecca happened to be the day that the closing arguments 73 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:28,716 Speaker 1: in the Derek Chauvin trial were presented in Minneapolis. It 74 00:05:28,756 --> 00:05:34,436 Speaker 1: was an intense day for both of us. Hey, Rebecca, Hey, 75 00:05:34,476 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 1: how have you been? Man? Here's about a question, how 76 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:45,476 Speaker 1: are you really? I think I'm overwhelmed and traumatized and 77 00:05:45,556 --> 00:05:49,836 Speaker 1: excited and outraged. It's this sort of weird mix of 78 00:05:49,876 --> 00:05:53,236 Speaker 1: all of those emotions. What about you, how are you 79 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 1: feeling in this moment? You know, I think I had 80 00:05:56,956 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 1: done a panel at Netroot several years ago, was myself 81 00:06:00,516 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 1: and a couple of folks from on the ground in Ferguson, 82 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:05,716 Speaker 1: and one of the things they said at the time 83 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 1: that it stuck with me is that they believed that 84 00:06:08,796 --> 00:06:13,356 Speaker 1: PETE PSD doesn't exist because what we're dealing with is 85 00:06:13,396 --> 00:06:19,276 Speaker 1: a constant state of trauma, stress and disorder. And it 86 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:21,636 Speaker 1: has been probably one of the thoughts that has stayed 87 00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 1: in my head consistently since then, because the notion that 88 00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: there is a time and a space for recovery almost 89 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:33,116 Speaker 1: feels like a luxury exactly. It's trauma all around, exactly, 90 00:06:33,956 --> 00:06:36,996 Speaker 1: and part of that, even as we talk, we have 91 00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:41,796 Speaker 1: to be very cognizant about our terminology, and so I think, 92 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:47,276 Speaker 1: starting this conversation, how should we what terminology should we 93 00:06:47,356 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 1: be using when we're thinking about disability or the disabled community. 94 00:06:52,956 --> 00:06:55,676 Speaker 1: You know, to me, I love the word disability. I 95 00:06:55,756 --> 00:07:01,156 Speaker 1: love it because of the beauty of the elasticity of 96 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 1: the term a It was a word that was chosen 97 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 1: by our elders and it was the first time that 98 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 1: people with disability is formally declared what they wanted to 99 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: be called. And then in the crafting of the ADA, 100 00:07:16,556 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: the definition is any mental or physical impairment that impacts 101 00:07:21,356 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 1: activities of daily life, a history or a record of 102 00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:31,676 Speaker 1: such impairment. And so the definition is broad enough to 103 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 1: encompass the children in Flint, Michigan that are still several 104 00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:39,156 Speaker 1: thousand days without clean drinking water and have acquired learning 105 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:42,436 Speaker 1: disabilities as a result of it. It's broad enough to 106 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 1: include elders like Fanny lew Hamer who are involuntarily sterilized. 107 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:50,996 Speaker 1: And it's broad enough to include people living with long 108 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 1: haul COVID that are still trying to figure out how 109 00:07:53,156 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: they navigate this space and time. To me, so often 110 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 1: definitions are so restrictive, and this is instead about does 111 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 1: it impact how you eat, how you live, how you 112 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:08,356 Speaker 1: engage with your loved ones? And the beauty of that 113 00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: is that it varies with each person definitely. And how 114 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: would you define I always go to the definition by 115 00:08:17,596 --> 00:08:21,676 Speaker 1: my colleague Talila Lewis and Dustin Gibson that talks about 116 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:27,276 Speaker 1: ableism as a system that places value on people's bodies 117 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:33,196 Speaker 1: and minds, based on society lee constructed ideas of normalcy, intelligence, excellence, 118 00:08:33,196 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 1: and productivity. These ideas are deeply rooted in anti blackness 119 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:41,836 Speaker 1: and eugenics, colonialism, and capitalism. And you don't have to 120 00:08:41,876 --> 00:08:46,196 Speaker 1: be disabled to experience ableism. It's really grounded in the 121 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:49,516 Speaker 1: notion of who is valuable and worthy based on a 122 00:08:49,556 --> 00:08:55,396 Speaker 1: person's appearance and or their ability to produce, reproduce, excel 123 00:08:55,676 --> 00:08:57,236 Speaker 1: and the term that they use, and I think is 124 00:08:57,236 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: really powerful and or behave. Somebody might not have a 125 00:09:00,796 --> 00:09:03,516 Speaker 1: choice how they appear in public, how they engage in public, 126 00:09:04,076 --> 00:09:06,916 Speaker 1: but the way that society responds to them, if they 127 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:09,396 Speaker 1: walk with a limp, if they speak with us matter, 128 00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: if they use a communication board to communicate, All of 129 00:09:14,436 --> 00:09:17,396 Speaker 1: those things fall under the behavior piece, which I think 130 00:09:17,436 --> 00:09:19,476 Speaker 1: is really critically important when we think about what it 131 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:22,716 Speaker 1: means to live in society. Wow. And it of course 132 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: makes me think about how people respond to certain people 133 00:09:28,636 --> 00:09:31,596 Speaker 1: because of the color of their skin, because of the 134 00:09:31,636 --> 00:09:35,316 Speaker 1: texture of their hair, because of the culture that they practice, 135 00:09:35,396 --> 00:09:40,236 Speaker 1: because of the language that they speak. And then when 136 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 1: we start thinking about the intersection of ableism and racism, 137 00:09:45,836 --> 00:09:48,316 Speaker 1: I think that's when it becomes tricky for many people 138 00:09:48,356 --> 00:09:52,436 Speaker 1: because I think in many ways many Americans don't necessarily 139 00:09:52,476 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 1: have a clear definition of racism, nor do they have 140 00:09:56,116 --> 00:10:01,076 Speaker 1: a clear definition of which then prevents them from understanding 141 00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:05,996 Speaker 1: their intersection. And so how should we understand their intersection? 142 00:10:06,876 --> 00:10:09,956 Speaker 1: I mean, they're roots of the same treat It's funny. 143 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 1: I actually went back through your book after reading it 144 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: the first time, and every time there was something there 145 00:10:16,396 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: that I was like, oh, it parallels here. I literally 146 00:10:18,916 --> 00:10:22,396 Speaker 1: like drew a picture of a tree, thinking about even 147 00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:27,796 Speaker 1: from the days of slavery and the discussion of things 148 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:30,756 Speaker 1: like drape to mania, the psychosis that went along with 149 00:10:30,956 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: runaway slaves, the development and frankly still continued use in 150 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 1: many circles of phrenology, the examination of the physicality of 151 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 1: a group of people in order to determine superiority or not. 152 00:10:44,996 --> 00:10:49,836 Speaker 1: Many of those things are still common discussion today. Individuals 153 00:10:49,836 --> 00:10:53,796 Speaker 1: who are slaughtered by law enforcement at least fifty percent 154 00:10:53,876 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: are people with disabilities, whether it be a mental illness, 155 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:02,196 Speaker 1: whether it be a speech impediment, whether it be substance use, 156 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:05,676 Speaker 1: which counts if somebody is in recovery. Even with the 157 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:11,116 Speaker 1: Derek Schouven trial, hearing the reliance on ablest language as 158 00:11:11,156 --> 00:11:16,476 Speaker 1: a justification for the numerous deaths of African Americans with disabilities. 159 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 1: But then you have some who say, well, why are 160 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: we still talking about disability? You know, indeed the ADA 161 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: was passed in nineteen ninety. Aren't we living in a 162 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:31,956 Speaker 1: society where folks with the disability, you know, have rights justice, 163 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:34,636 Speaker 1: black and brown and indigenous and people of color have 164 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:37,476 Speaker 1: their rights. So why are we talking about this? What 165 00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:40,476 Speaker 1: do you say to those who who make that claims? 166 00:11:40,516 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 1: I see you're already shaking it because it's the same 167 00:11:44,556 --> 00:11:48,236 Speaker 1: thing with post racial society, right it is, we still 168 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:52,196 Speaker 1: deal with a seventy percent at least unemployment. Right we're 169 00:11:52,276 --> 00:11:56,756 Speaker 1: the only community that it is actually grounded in statute 170 00:11:56,796 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 1: that it is perfectly legal to pay disabled workers two 171 00:11:59,596 --> 00:12:04,036 Speaker 1: dollars and fifteen cents or less a week. Well, disabled 172 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:07,556 Speaker 1: people still, if you're on supplemental security income, you can't 173 00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:10,196 Speaker 1: get married or you'll lose your health health insurance. We 174 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:13,756 Speaker 1: don't have marriage equality yet for disabled people in this country. 175 00:12:14,156 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 1: You aren't allowed to maintain more than two thousand dollars 176 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:19,556 Speaker 1: in a checking account in a lot of cases. Yes, 177 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:23,156 Speaker 1: the ADA is thirty years old, but eighty percent of 178 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:26,516 Speaker 1: polling places are still inaccessible to us in one way, 179 00:12:26,516 --> 00:12:30,556 Speaker 1: shape or form. Progress has been made, but there has 180 00:12:30,636 --> 00:12:33,076 Speaker 1: never been the level of enforcement that we need to 181 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:39,156 Speaker 1: actually see people with disabilities come anywhere near the level 182 00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 1: playing field that the law has fired to all those 183 00:12:42,156 --> 00:12:46,556 Speaker 1: years ago. You can listen to doctor Kenney's full conversation 184 00:12:46,596 --> 00:12:49,556 Speaker 1: with Rebecca Cokeley over on the Banta Racist Feed, on 185 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.