Speaker 1: In my heart and who I am naturally is a
Speaker 1: really authentic, open, honest person. But the hardest thing for
Speaker 1: me to write in my book was I became a
Speaker 1: skilled liar.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.
Speaker 2: We talk a lot on this show, as you know,
Speaker 2: about career arcs and how many lives we might get
Speaker 2: to live or have to live, depending on your perspective.
Speaker 2: And it's such a fascinating, rich topic for me because
Speaker 2: I've been going through a kind of midlife something. It's
Speaker 2: not a crisis per se, and it's not entirely just
Speaker 2: because of my age, although that plays a part. It's
Speaker 2: because of where I am in my career, where my
Speaker 2: industry is, where the world is, and I know I'm
Speaker 2: not alone and feeling angsty and anxious and confused. And
Speaker 2: we get to these crossroads sometimes start asking some very
Speaker 2: scary questions like who am I without this job? Do
Speaker 2: I even like my job? Could I do something else?
Speaker 2: What would that look like if I leave my job?
Speaker 2: Can I ever come back if I want? Are they
Speaker 2: kicking me out for good? Will I be good at
Speaker 2: something else? So scary but also so important, And these
Speaker 2: are the moments that can change our lives in ways
Speaker 2: we can't even foresee, we can't imagine. And for people
Speaker 2: like me who are like I need to know what's
Speaker 2: on the other side of that door before I open it,
Speaker 2: it's really scary.
Speaker 3: And the thing you can't imagine on the.
Speaker 2: Other side of the door might be better than whatever
Speaker 2: you're predicting. So today's guest has lived many, many lives,
Speaker 2: so many lives, and I really admire her for her strength,
Speaker 2: her courage, her sense of adventure. She's someone who seems
Speaker 2: to just constantly say I'm.
Speaker 3: Just gonna go do that. I'm just gonna go do it,
Speaker 3: And I love that so much.
Speaker 2: I want to be more like that. She's an award
Speaker 2: winning rue music artist. She's an activist, she's an author,
Speaker 2: she's a corporate boss. Welcome to Off the Cops, Shelley, Right.
Speaker 1: Essie, I'm so glad to be here with you. Wow,
Speaker 1: what an intro.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad.
Speaker 2: I mean I could do your whole bio, which is great,
Speaker 2: you have a very impressive bio.
Speaker 3: But like hear it off the cup, these are.
Speaker 2: The conversations we want to have, Yeah, asking ourselves the
Speaker 2: scary questions and like how did you how'd you get
Speaker 2: past that question?
Speaker 3: How'd you answer it?
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad we finally get to do this
Speaker 2: together when I don't remember when we met.
Speaker 3: When do you think we met?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was thinking about that a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 1: I feel like because I think my wife said, how
Speaker 1: do you? How long have you known Essie? Obviously you
Speaker 1: and I have history in the recent in recent years
Speaker 1: working on a project together. We'll get into that. I
Speaker 1: think that the first time you and I met was
Speaker 1: at thirty Rock, and I think we were both in
Speaker 1: the green room about to do a hit on either
Speaker 1: an NBC or MSNBC. Is that close?
Speaker 3: I think that's right. Would would this have been twenty
Speaker 3: eleven or twelve?
Speaker 1: Probably? Yes, probably around that time. So I came out
Speaker 1: of the closet in twenty ten, And of course we'll
Speaker 1: get to all of that, yep. But I you know,
Speaker 1: in between twenty ten and twenty fifteen, I was there
Speaker 1: a lot, doing a lot of stuff, and I feel
Speaker 1: like that's when we met. And I feel like, too,
Speaker 1: you it was the two of us in a green room,
Speaker 1: and I want to say it was Mira Sorvino in
Speaker 1: there with her Dad. Yes, Oh my god, yes, I
Speaker 1: just that just came to me. I feel like I
Speaker 1: feel like they had a project and they were talking
Speaker 1: about it and it was just us and then in
Speaker 1: walks Paul and Mira and I think you and I
Speaker 1: both looked at one another like, whoa.
Speaker 3: Shelley, You're so right.
Speaker 2: And I would never have remembered that part of it,
Speaker 2: But now that you say that, oh, it's vivid, right,
Speaker 2: memory is vivid. Yeah, Oh, I remember even which green
Speaker 2: room we were in, because okay, so here's the I
Speaker 2: was at MSNBC.
Speaker 3: I had a show at MSNBC.
Speaker 2: I wasn't in the green room a lot because I
Speaker 2: had an office there, but I was in the green
Speaker 2: room this day because I was going on a show
Speaker 2: I didn't normally go on. And I don't remember if
Speaker 2: we were going on Morning Joe or we were going
Speaker 2: on with like Chris Jansen or Thomas Roberts. But it
Speaker 2: wasn't a show I was doing. All the time.
Speaker 1: You were guesting. You were guesting on someone else's show
Speaker 1: and you had a show there at the same time. Correct, Yes,
Speaker 1: this all makes sense. And you know what.
Speaker 3: All makes sense.
Speaker 1: This is the new truth. We're allowed to make things up. Now,
Speaker 1: even if this isn't true.
Speaker 3: We'll just say it is. That's right, let's say that's
Speaker 3: that's what it was. No, but I feel really good
Speaker 3: about it. Yeah, I feel like that's for sure.
Speaker 1: It Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you remembered that.
Speaker 1: Okay, and as you were, I I may see as
Speaker 1: you were kind of giving a little intro to me
Speaker 1: at the top, but asking yourself out loud, those questions
Speaker 1: you've asked yourself. I realized that those are all of
Speaker 1: the question. You've nailed it. That is the full complement
Speaker 1: of questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, done deal, Yes, well, and I can't We're going
Speaker 2: to get to that part. But like, I know what
Speaker 2: questions you're asking yourself because I'm here. Yeah, and I've
Speaker 2: been here, so yeah, we just I feel like we
Speaker 2: have a lot in common. We're gonna get to it,
Speaker 2: and I want to talk about so many things. But first,
Speaker 2: can I just get your take on a couple country
Speaker 2: music adjacent news items.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm here for it.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, this will be quick, but like you're here,
Speaker 2: I need your take, Keith Urban, Nicole Kidman, your thoughts.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I have met Nicole on a couple of occasions, quickly,
Speaker 1: briefly in industry circles I have. I would consider Keith
Speaker 1: a friend since the mid nineties. Yes, I think divorces
Speaker 1: hard and breakups are hard, and they're hard whether you're
Speaker 1: a publicly known person or not. But the lens of
Speaker 1: fame and kids an intersection of all of that, it's
Speaker 1: just it's hard. I just hope we can stay out
Speaker 1: of it and let them have their Yeah, let them
Speaker 1: have their marital breakdown. There's probably a lot going on
Speaker 1: that we don't know, nor should we, nor is it
Speaker 1: any of our business. But nineteen years married.
Speaker 3: That's a giant success, agreeing to kids.
Speaker 2: So I here's what's making me mad about this story.
Speaker 3: People are.
Speaker 2: Imposing an explanation onto this, like he was threatened by
Speaker 2: her success.
Speaker 3: That's what's let oh.
Speaker 2: Really well, like I said, I don't know, we don't know, yeah, anything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And they're pointing to the fact that he, in past
Speaker 2: interviews gets very reticent about talking about her, like this
Speaker 2: is somehow proof.
Speaker 1: That he's jealous of her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Maybe she said, honey, don't talk about me because I
Speaker 2: want these interviews to be about you. And when they
Speaker 2: ask me about you just shut it down. I don't
Speaker 2: need to be in your headline.
Speaker 3: Maybe this was her.
Speaker 2: I just feel like we psychologize these celebrities and it's
Speaker 2: like we're inventing shit out of thin air.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I wish we'd stop doing that. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I look I like a soap operas next as much
Speaker 1: as the next person. And same. You know, I remember
Speaker 1: being a kid, and you know, there weren't that many
Speaker 1: tabloids at the time, but I remember being interested in
Speaker 1: you know, Glenn Campbell and Tanya Tucker. You know, breakups, breakdowns, breakthroughs, marriages, divorces,
Speaker 1: kids out of wedlow, It's all happened. This has been
Speaker 1: around forever. And you know, here's what I know. I
Speaker 1: love Keith urban To in his just to his core,
Speaker 1: in my core. And I assume that the woman he
Speaker 1: made a life with for nineteen years and built a
Speaker 1: family with is of his ilk.
Speaker 3: And something worked.
Speaker 1: Something worked, Yeah, something worked, And it's I think of
Speaker 1: the what is that? What is that it's a poem about?
Speaker 1: Instead of talking about how we're falling, let's think about
Speaker 1: how long we were in the air.
Speaker 3: Nice?
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, Okay, have you heard about the new Beyonce rule.
Speaker 1: I am aware at a high level of the new
Speaker 1: Beyonce rule.
Speaker 2: Okay, to explain for people, Beyonce wins Best Country Album
Speaker 2: at the Grammys in February. It was a little controversial
Speaker 2: inside country music circles. Four months later, the Recording Academy,
Speaker 2: the Grammys breaks up the country category into two Best
Speaker 2: Contemporary Country, Best Traditional Country. The Academy says it will
Speaker 2: award modern country while still recognizing subgenres like Americana.
Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Yeah, I don't love it. I listened to
Speaker 1: the Beyonce record and to end, I put good headphones on,
Speaker 1: you know, laid on the floor and gave it the
Speaker 1: listen it deserves. It's as country a record as anything
Speaker 1: else that is coming out of Nashville or has come
Speaker 1: out of Nashville for decades. I would ask us to
Speaker 1: be self reflective as an industry and ask ourselves what's different?
Speaker 1: What's different about Beyonce? Why did that really? Bryal us up?
Speaker 3: A good question? Good question.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think back to when Shanaia Twain, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously she had a couple of albums before she and
Speaker 1: Mutt Lange teamed up and made you know, genre busting,
Speaker 1: genre defining records, and people had the same complaints about, oh,
Speaker 1: it's not country enough, and that said, you know, we
Speaker 1: let her in, I mean, and she was a product
Speaker 1: of Music Row by the way, she'd had a couple
Speaker 1: of records out, you know, our Mercury records before those
Speaker 1: records exploded. All of this is to say that Nashville
Speaker 1: doesn't really do a great job. They're not ultra comfortable
Speaker 1: with someone coming in that they didn't that didn't kiss
Speaker 1: the ring, that they didn't raise it, that they didn't manufacture,
Speaker 1: that they can't take credit for. And still, what is
Speaker 1: different about Beyonce. She's a woman of color. This is
Speaker 1: a black woman who owns all of her power and
Speaker 1: brings it to bear in every space that she embodies.
Speaker 1: And that is a country record by every metric that
Speaker 1: we are looking at in contemporary country music today.
Speaker 3: Okay, you heard it here.
Speaker 1: And then for the for the new genre of the
Speaker 1: classic the traditional country record, my vote, full stop goes
Speaker 1: for Sonny Sweeney, her new record that let's just call it,
Speaker 1: let's just we have a winner. Let's just say that.
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll check back.
Speaker 1: That's who I want.
Speaker 2: That's why I went to okay Bad Bunny at the
Speaker 2: super Bowl. A lot of country artists feel as though
Speaker 2: country music keeps breaking all these records and then the
Speaker 2: super Bowl keeps ignoring it.
Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Yeah, well, we've had country artists at the
Speaker 1: super Bowl before it's happened. Bad Bunny is the right choice.
Speaker 1: I think his downloads have surpassed even Tailor's. Bad Bunny
Speaker 1: is arguably the biggest artist right now in the world,
Speaker 1: and given that the NFL is and has been aiming
Speaker 1: toward a more global audience, it's the right choice. I
Speaker 1: know that everyone wants to think it's a political play,
Speaker 1: and maybe there's a tinge of that, but I don't
Speaker 1: know that the wider, the big global NFL audience wants
Speaker 1: something different country music in some incredible stars that are
Speaker 1: filling stadiums, right yeah, Brian, Yeah, Morgan Wallin obviously Kenny
Speaker 1: Chesney Can continues to do it. But I think the
Speaker 1: Bad Bunny appointment it meets the moment of where we are.
Speaker 1: And I'm an I'm a huge NFL fan, and I
Speaker 1: know you are as well. I'm I'm here for it
Speaker 1: and have I ever bought a Bad Bad Bunny record?
Speaker 1: I have not but I went the other day and listen,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I know that, I know that,
Speaker 1: I know that. I can totally see why the NFL
Speaker 1: made this time.
Speaker 2: I saw Bobby Bones, who's a friend I know you
Speaker 2: know him too. He was saying, listen, Bad Buddies not
Speaker 2: for me. That's okay, Like not.
Speaker 3: Everyone has not everyone has to be for everyone. What Yeah,
Speaker 3: I like Bad Buddy.
Speaker 2: It's fun, it's fun music. He's not my favorite, but
Speaker 2: it's not for me.
Speaker 3: That's okay. Is that okay?
Speaker 1: And when you think about yeah again, I've it's not
Speaker 1: I'm not going to a Bad Bunny concertor yeah, but
Speaker 1: that's okay. But when I see what the NFL kind
Speaker 1: of the pre show, the first half, how someone has
Speaker 1: to be able to hold up that energy and that
Speaker 1: viewership in that halftime show, which is just iconic, we
Speaker 1: it makes sense. It makes so much sense. Okay, good job, that.
Speaker 3: Was the news.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Shelly Wright for your analysis.
Speaker 1: Glad Toad, let's.
Speaker 2: Get to you, and let's go back to the beginning.
Speaker 2: I always like to ask, what kind of kid were you?
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great question. I was Okay, I was
Speaker 1: a total weirdo. Still am a card carrying weirdo too.
Speaker 1: I you know, I'm a nerd. I never got in trouble.
Speaker 1: I was a brown noser. I sat on the front
Speaker 1: row of class, I raised my hand, I always had
Speaker 1: my homework done. Now part of this should be seen
Speaker 1: through the lens of hypervigilance as a closeted queer. Yes,
Speaker 1: in a town in Kansas where there were churches on
Speaker 1: nearly every corner.
Speaker 3: So were you can?
Speaker 2: I just ask, yeah, partly because that were you a
Speaker 2: pleaser if I please people?
Speaker 1: Yes? And I had to be. And I was a
Speaker 1: person of faith at a very young age, a genuine
Speaker 1: My faith practice is really important to me, and it
Speaker 1: always has been. I knew that I was a person
Speaker 1: of faith before I knew I was gay. So it's
Speaker 1: not that I ran toward religion to fix me. And
Speaker 1: I put that in air quotes because I thought I
Speaker 1: was spiritually you know, damned once I realized I was gay.
Speaker 1: But so many kind of things coexisted in me that
Speaker 1: I think are interesting in that people pleasers typically follow
Speaker 1: a path and a trajectory that everyone else does. So
Speaker 1: I followed the path of get give straight. A student
Speaker 1: homecoming queen captain of my basketball team, president of the
Speaker 1: band First Trumpet, dating boys, dating boys, I mean, you
Speaker 1: can get into that fish. I did. I wasn't that
Speaker 1: committed to it for obvious reasons. But so I would
Speaker 1: take that path, but then I would diverge wildly from
Speaker 1: the path, which got me in some trouble with my
Speaker 1: peer group, caused some bullying. You know, I was the
Speaker 1: recipient of some bullying. And then I also had this
Speaker 1: crazy notion that I was going to go to Nashville
Speaker 1: and become a country music singer and sing on the
Speaker 1: radio and sing on the opry. So I think, through
Speaker 1: a people pleasing lens, that was pretty wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And I know you realized you were gay young.
Speaker 2: After you realized you were a spiritual person. Love, faith
Speaker 2: in religion was important, but you knew you couldn't live openly.
Speaker 2: I think we can all imagine why the pressures, but
Speaker 2: I just want to hear in your words, why did
Speaker 2: you feel like you couldn't live openly? Identify those points
Speaker 2: of resistance for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when I was I was baptized when I
Speaker 1: was six in the Christian Church, which is you know,
Speaker 1: there wasn't even a Catholic church in my town. It
Speaker 1: was Methodists, Community Baptist, Baptist, all these kind of versions
Speaker 1: of that. No one looked different in my town. Everyone
Speaker 1: was white. We did have a couple of Catholics. No
Speaker 1: Jews in my town, certainly no gay people, wink wink.
Speaker 1: Yeah right. And when I was nine, I realized, and
Speaker 1: I'll keep this brief, I was in third grade and
Speaker 1: I had a beautiful teacher named Miss Smiley, Laura Smiley.
Speaker 1: She was young, big, bright smile, you know, perfectly named.
Speaker 1: Over the weekends, I just couldn't wait to get back
Speaker 1: to school on Monday, and I just thought, I just wondered,
Speaker 1: does she miss us? Does she miss the students like
Speaker 1: we miss her? And I began to have kind of
Speaker 1: little conversations with my friends, and I realized no one
Speaker 1: was dying to get back to school on Monday like
Speaker 1: I was. And then to see her. And then I realized,
Speaker 1: uh oh, and why was this troubling that I had
Speaker 1: a crush on my third grade teacher? Because everything being
Speaker 1: talked about in my church, in my community, on the news,
Speaker 1: and you know, I grew up in a farm community,
Speaker 1: a ton of a thousand people. Teachers told gay jokes,
Speaker 1: in my school, the word faggot was used by a
Speaker 1: couple of teachers and Jim coaches, you know, and it
Speaker 1: was widely used in the hallway, as no one got
Speaker 1: in trouble for saying anything like that. There was a
Speaker 1: game called smear the queer with the football, which meant
Speaker 1: it's like a hot potato, you throw the foot. If
Speaker 1: you can't get rid of it, everybody has license to
Speaker 1: beat the crap out of you. And the preacher in
Speaker 1: my preacher, Warren Skiles, talked about evil people and he
Speaker 1: was a fantastic influence on my life. And he knew
Speaker 1: not what he was doing. He would use the words
Speaker 1: in his sermons drunkard, thief, adulterer, murderer, homosexual, and so
Speaker 1: this is why I knew I could never ever share
Speaker 1: my secret or be that. And then of course, when
Speaker 1: I was nine, you know, realizing I was gay, I
Speaker 1: had for five years had this dream of making it
Speaker 1: to Nashville. So this wasn't And you know, people have
Speaker 1: asked me, well, why did you decide to go into
Speaker 1: country music once you realized you were gay? I'm like
Speaker 1: being a country music artist. That dream predated my understanding
Speaker 1: who I was as.
Speaker 2: A and maybe it wasn't even a decision, it was
Speaker 2: a calling, like how do you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean, when I was obsessed with Loretta Lynn buck Owens,
Speaker 1: Conway Twitty, Connie Smith, there was just there was there
Speaker 1: was no options. So so and then I knew that
Speaker 1: I was going into an industry in which no one
Speaker 1: had ever identified being gay. And when I got to
Speaker 1: Nashville in nineteen eighty nine, I just doubled down on
Speaker 1: my yea, you know that, Well, it's sure not going
Speaker 1: to be me. I'm not going to be the first
Speaker 1: one out of the closet and lo and behold you know,
Speaker 1: long story short. Twenty years later it was I you were.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you're young, you have a vision of
Speaker 2: your future in no nowhere on the horizon is a
Speaker 2: place where you can be yourself. That just doesn't it's
Speaker 2: not it's not happening. And when you feel that, when
Speaker 2: you feel shame as a child, when you have to
Speaker 2: hide something that fundamental as a child, that's a trauma.
Speaker 2: And as you know, traumas imprint on us, they show
Speaker 2: up later. So how did your trauma from that show
Speaker 2: up later in life?
Speaker 1: Ooh, it's a really good question. I've been asked a
Speaker 1: lot of questions, and I don't think anyone's asked me that.
Speaker 3: That's my favorite thing to hear.
Speaker 1: You're good at your work, guessie.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 1: Let me just quickly just talk about the when I
Speaker 1: was younger and thinking that's not a life I could ever,
Speaker 1: I can't ever be myself as a gay person. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The notion of that seems much more reasonable when you're nine, eleven, sixteen, nineteen,
Speaker 1: because one doesn't at those ages really realize what weight
Speaker 1: companionship and love have. Yeah, so when you're ten, you
Speaker 1: can say, oh, I'll just never be that. I'll just
Speaker 1: focus on the music. It's an unfair contract to sign
Speaker 1: at that time. But to answer your question, how did
Speaker 1: those traumas show up in my life later? I think
Speaker 1: I developed such a muscle memory around perfection and a
Speaker 1: skill set that I didn't and I wrote about this
Speaker 1: in my book, a skill set that I didn't love,
Speaker 1: which was having the ability to compartmentalize and in my
Speaker 1: heart and who I am naturally is a really authentic, open,
Speaker 1: honest person. But the hardest thing for me to write
Speaker 1: in my book was I became a skilled liar and
Speaker 1: coming out I had to really address that and own
Speaker 1: that and hope that people instead of saying, see, I
Speaker 1: knew it, You're a liar. You've been true, You've been
Speaker 1: tricking us the whole time. I had to trust that
Speaker 1: that the majority of people would say, tell me why
Speaker 1: you felt like you had to be a liar? Yeah,
Speaker 1: That's what I needed people to get to, and I
Speaker 1: just had to trust that they would.
Speaker 2: Your mom, how did your experience as a kid impact
Speaker 2: the way you are seeing your children now? I came
Speaker 2: across something you said were you talked about having sympathy
Speaker 2: for the little you, and that resonates so much with
Speaker 2: me because you know, in therapy we do that, we
Speaker 2: try to show up for the little us as the
Speaker 2: grown up us because maybe we felt as kids we
Speaker 2: weren't being shown up for, and so seeing little us
Speaker 2: now is just as important, It's crucial. So how are
Speaker 2: you seeing your kids in a way that maybe you
Speaker 2: wanted to be seen?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So, my relationship with my mom and very different
Speaker 1: than my reallyationship with my dad. Although they kind of
Speaker 1: were one unit when I was a kid, they divorced
Speaker 1: when I was twenty seven, and then kind of a
Speaker 1: wild convergent convergence of relationships there. But my mom was
Speaker 1: my biggest fan. As anything I did, she just said,
Speaker 1: you can be the best at it. She just had
Speaker 1: this real belief in my ability to excel. And she
Speaker 1: also loved country music, so there was a particular delight
Speaker 1: that she found in that I was not only wanted
Speaker 1: to be a songwriter artist, musician, but that I was
Speaker 1: actually good at it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that you could, which is always so.
Speaker 1: Wild to me because I see so many people who
Speaker 1: moved to Nashville and they want to do it, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's probably not going to happen. I just
Speaker 1: what a thrill that I actually had enough talent to
Speaker 1: do it, to you know, cut and paste this thing
Speaker 1: together and make it fly. My mother was complicated in
Speaker 1: that she also was a polio survivor and that was traumatic.
Speaker 1: So I think that there was unaddressed trauma for her,
Speaker 1: and she gifted the trauma down to me. And my
Speaker 1: siblings were all very hypervigilant in a number of ways,
Speaker 1: and we get that from our mom that said, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad to have that hypervigilance, that do sweat the
Speaker 1: small stuff mentality, because I've built a career out of
Speaker 1: sweating the small stuff. So cut to how do I
Speaker 1: show up differently for my children? So I've got identical
Speaker 1: twin boys, they're twelve, and my wife and I, you know,
Speaker 1: we have a shared parenting style and then a different
Speaker 1: parenting style in some ways no surprise to anyone. Both
Speaker 1: of them want to be YouTubers.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's all the kids want to be, Sitta.
Speaker 1: That's all they want to be. And so my wife
Speaker 1: will at times say, you know that you're not going
Speaker 1: to be a YouTuber, like that's not a real and
Speaker 1: I am very mindful to tell them I think you
Speaker 1: can do it. I think you can do it. I
Speaker 1: believe in you, and here are the things it takes
Speaker 1: to be really great at something. And they're looking at,
Speaker 1: you know, their YouTube channel and they have thirty five
Speaker 1: followers and they're like, Mama, how do you have so
Speaker 1: many followers? Yeah, I'm like, well, let me let me
Speaker 1: talk you through what that looks like. And so I
Speaker 1: I want my kids when I'm dead and gone and
Speaker 1: while I'm here, frankly, I want them to never to
Speaker 1: feel as if there was never a deficit in my
Speaker 1: belief of their dreams. Because this is the kid me
Speaker 1: who when she was four told the entire town of Wellsville, Kansas,
Speaker 1: I'm to be on the Grand Ole Opry and I'm
Speaker 1: going to sing on the radio and make records, and
Speaker 1: I ktch you not si yea. My whole town said yeah,
Speaker 1: let's go.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That was so big to me. And the older I get,
Speaker 1: the more I realize how saying one's dreams out loud
Speaker 1: as a kid and having people say, Okay, yeah, get
Speaker 1: you know, get your work done, get good grades, stay
Speaker 1: out of jail, do what you know. Yeah, follow the rules,
Speaker 1: and you can do whatever you want. And so that
Speaker 1: is my kind of a key tenant of my being
Speaker 1: so exestile.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, because, yeah, I need
Speaker 2: to think about this more because my son, who's tenant, wants.
Speaker 3: To be a YouTuber and I'm I'm your wife. I'm like, no,
Speaker 3: you're not. That's not real. They're not.
Speaker 2: But I really like what you said. I really like
Speaker 2: shifting my perspective on that a little bit. I'm going
Speaker 2: to think on that and maybe show up for him
Speaker 2: a little differently. But I'm so scared of the YouTube stuff.
Speaker 3: I'm scared of it.
Speaker 1: I'm scared of it. I hate the screen, like This
Speaker 1: is a major point of it's poison, you know. And
Speaker 1: what I try to tell the boys is if your
Speaker 1: frontal lobe is still prefrontal cortex is still in development
Speaker 1: and won't be until it's twenty five, and you're having
Speaker 1: this struggle, look at adults around you. Look on the train.
Speaker 1: Everyone has their face in a screen. If it's hard
Speaker 1: for adults, it's going to be doubly If not triple
Speaker 1: or whatever multiple you want to put on, it very
Speaker 1: hard for you. And and we can't really get them
Speaker 1: off of screens because they learn on screens.
Speaker 2: Yes, he just brought home a computer from class, like
Speaker 2: he's going to be on screens. It's also the video
Speaker 2: games and stuff. I really resisted for a long time
Speaker 2: because I'm so scared of it, But it got to
Speaker 2: a point where, like the video game We're thing was
Speaker 2: a social access point for him. If he didn't have
Speaker 2: that social access point to talk to his friends about
Speaker 2: Super Mario Brothers and Pokemon and Minecraft, he would have
Speaker 2: had no friends because he wasn't sporty. He's a bit
Speaker 2: nerdy in the best way. He's on the spectrum. He's
Speaker 2: socially a little developmentally, a little behind, and the kids
Speaker 2: that are just like him are talking about video games,
Speaker 2: and if I refused, he would.
Speaker 3: Have had all like no social interactions.
Speaker 2: So for me it became an opportunity. And so once
Speaker 2: I opened to that door, you know, now I have
Speaker 2: to I we're here, you can't close it. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, but I'm just very scared of the online stuff,
Speaker 2: especially with boys.
Speaker 3: I'm very scared of it. But I have to get
Speaker 3: to a better place. And I'm really going to think
Speaker 3: about what you said.
Speaker 1: Perhaps we can rather than our seeing the conversations we
Speaker 1: need to have with our kids, especially boys of the
Speaker 1: this age, instead of the conversations we need to be
Speaker 1: having with them, how about we add something to that,
Speaker 1: and that is the conversations we need to be having
Speaker 1: with their friends' parents, because they these boys want to
Speaker 1: follow the pack of well, you know, Oscars on it
Speaker 1: and Arthur's on it, and you know, and and I
Speaker 1: get that.
Speaker 3: But perhaps we can have a united front together.
Speaker 1: And there's a not there's an organization in New Zealand
Speaker 1: I've done some work with in my last role. Anyway,
Speaker 1: long story short, they are mobilizing parents with one another
Speaker 1: as cohorts to help kind of change the watermark on
Speaker 1: screens and games, and I think I think there's not
Speaker 1: a there's not a magic pill on this, but I
Speaker 1: think it's going to be several things working in concert,
Speaker 1: and I think conversations with parents great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been thinking about this in preparation for my
Speaker 2: interview with you.
Speaker 3: I can't decide if the fact.
Speaker 2: That you become a giant country music star, top new
Speaker 2: female vocalist at the ninety five CMS, et cetera, while
Speaker 2: you're struggling with your sexuality, if that put you in
Speaker 2: the worst possible place at the worst possible time or
Speaker 2: the best right Because I'm sure it made you incredibly
Speaker 2: strong and resilient, but I know it was tough. I'm
Speaker 2: wondering how you'd answer that question.
Speaker 1: If I told you that the thing I was convinced
Speaker 1: for decades would be the thing that would end me
Speaker 1: was actually my superpower. Yes, that would be effect a truth.
Speaker 3: Say more.
Speaker 1: Say more the effort and the skill set and the
Speaker 1: energy and the strategy and the discipline that I had
Speaker 1: to deploy to not only make it to Nashville, learn
Speaker 1: the industry, get better as a songwriter, get signed, have
Speaker 1: two failed records, get myself out of that major deal
Speaker 1: and onto Universal Records. I was able to pull all
Speaker 1: of that out because of my strategy and focus muscle.
Speaker 1: And I have that strategy and focused muscle because I
Speaker 1: had to hide who I was my whole life. You
Speaker 1: get really good at stuff. And here's the kind of
Speaker 1: the big reveal is that in twenty twenty, I was
Speaker 1: on tour like every touring musician. I had to go
Speaker 1: home like everybody, and it was a really uncertain time
Speaker 1: and a really scary time for a lot of artists,
Speaker 1: not just for their income but mental health wise, Like
Speaker 1: this was a new normal. We'd no one had ever
Speaker 1: done this before. Guess what I got to do. I
Speaker 1: got to pivot into what was already for the past
Speaker 1: ten years my side hustle, which is corporate consulting with
Speaker 1: corporates around leadership, storytelling, D and I D E and
Speaker 1: I D EIB whatever you call it. Were it not
Speaker 1: for being a closeted country music singer who decided in
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, I'm going to come out. Not
Speaker 1: only am I going to come out, I'm going to
Speaker 1: come out, well, I'm going to come out and tell
Speaker 1: the whole truth and nothing but the truth and then
Speaker 1: storytelling what I do very naturally. Just I had this
Speaker 1: side hustle, and so I went from literally my tour
Speaker 1: being canceled and picking right up and growing my client base.
Speaker 1: What in the world?
Speaker 3: What? Yeah? Yeah, I love that. But I love that.
Speaker 3: That's why.
Speaker 2: There's so many ways to tell a story. And one
Speaker 2: of the stories is this was a really tough time
Speaker 2: for you. You went into a space that was not
Speaker 2: welcoming at a time where you needed to be welcomed.
Speaker 2: But the other version is the story you just told.
Speaker 2: And I knew there was going to be another version.
Speaker 1: That's why s Sie. I love the tenant that my
Speaker 1: parents taught me when I was a kid was plan
Speaker 1: your work and work your plan. Now the nuance of
Speaker 1: the work your plan piece. It doesn't it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: plan A is an effort.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I In fact, I love it when plan A begins
Speaker 1: to show its cracks. Yeah, because then I know that
Speaker 1: the iteration process, much like in songwriting, the iteration, the editing,
Speaker 1: the poking at it, that's putting it in the center,
Speaker 1: walking around it and evolving it. That's how you get
Speaker 1: a good song. That's how you get a stronger, better
Speaker 1: keynote address I'll bet you were better at this podcast
Speaker 1: than you were on episode one, right, So I love
Speaker 1: the editing process, and the older I get, the more
Speaker 1: I just want to shout from the mountaintop, and I
Speaker 1: do shout from the mountaintops. What's behind that door? Do
Speaker 1: as much work as you can plan for to knock
Speaker 1: on that door, But there is always something better than
Speaker 1: you can imagine that's right on the other side of the.
Speaker 3: Door, and you can't imagine it, and you can't carry
Speaker 3: for people.
Speaker 2: I'm, you know, a type A. I also grew up
Speaker 2: kind of a pleaser, a planner. I grew up very
Speaker 2: anxious at a great childhood. I always have to say that,
Speaker 2: because you know, I don't want it to sound like
Speaker 2: I didn't, but I moved a lot and there was
Speaker 2: a lot of expectation I put on myself.
Speaker 3: And so when.
Speaker 2: I am contemplating a door, like I said, and I
Speaker 2: don't know what's on the other side, that's very scary
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 3: It makes me not want to open it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I can't predict and plan for what the
Speaker 2: next thing is going to be, that makes me not
Speaker 2: want to even approach it. And that's like I said
Speaker 2: at the beginning. I want to be more like you
Speaker 2: and just fly fling the door open.
Speaker 1: Let me just let me offer this. I don't know
Speaker 1: that I've ever flung a door open. I think that
Speaker 1: is an un fair way to characterize my life. The
Speaker 1: chapters of my life.
Speaker 2: The bravery, the bravery I see is you flinging the
Speaker 2: door open, and you're saying it's more complicated than that.
Speaker 1: It's I decided to come out in two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: the morning after I didn't end my life. I actually
Speaker 1: came out four years later. Now what did I do
Speaker 1: in the middle of that? I did the work I
Speaker 1: had planned my work work. My plan evolved the plan
Speaker 1: A and to plan LMNOPQ. However, the letters go yeah,
Speaker 1: forgotten the alphabet in this moment. But there was a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of risk analysis, financial planning again yeah yeah, preparation,
Speaker 1: getting the right team together. I'm I'm a I'm no
Speaker 1: smarter than the next guy or gal, But I know this.
Speaker 1: If it's a matter of strategy and poking at it, interrogation,
Speaker 1: planning for mitigating risks, there is no one better at
Speaker 1: that than me. Oh yeah, no one.
Speaker 3: I feel the same, Like I'm really good at that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the flinging of the door not the thing,
Speaker 1: not the thing. It's like a show, right, it looks
Speaker 1: like wow, you know Lebron James gets up there, Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan goes, they slam duncan or yeah, what happens below
Speaker 1: the iceberg? That is That's what I do really well.
Speaker 1: So I don't think I've kicked any doors down or
Speaker 1: flung any doors open. I am. Do you know my nickname?
Speaker 1: Have I told you this before? My nickname amongst colleagues,
Speaker 1: family friends, ban crew. My whole life is Captain's Safety.
Speaker 2: Oh I love that, and I love.
Speaker 1: That about me. Yes, I love that about me. I
Speaker 1: always have a blanket and a gallon of water in
Speaker 1: the back of my bar. Can I tell you how
Speaker 1: many times have been first unseen at an accident where
Speaker 1: the blanket and the water was needed?
Speaker 3: How many times?
Speaker 1: So many people have recks in front of me? People
Speaker 1: old people fall on the street in front of me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, so I am. I'm Captain Safety.
Speaker 2: So you date a few big country stars, Vince Gill,
Speaker 2: Brad Paisley, people we all know. Were those relationships pr
Speaker 2: Were they you trying to convince yourself were they like,
Speaker 2: what was your intention? With no no judgment, I'm just
Speaker 2: wondering what was your intention in dating very big you know,
Speaker 2: mail stars at that time in your life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, even if you asked this with
Speaker 1: judge judgment, that's fine. Again, I yeah, I don't mind
Speaker 1: being judged for it. In fact, when I came out,
Speaker 1: I wanted to come out and tell the whole truth
Speaker 1: and nothing but the truth. And that did include my
Speaker 1: having to speak to what were you thinking? What was that?
Speaker 1: And it was there was a p R benefit that
Speaker 1: I realized. Was it my motivator? No? Did I appreciate
Speaker 1: the cover it gave me when I was in a
Speaker 1: relationship with a Brad or spending time with Vince Gill
Speaker 1: or Brett farre or having a day with Troy Aikman,
Speaker 1: all of I did. The benefit I did appreciate and acknowledge,
Speaker 1: and the benefit was there not my motivator. So here's so,
Speaker 1: I had a partner for twelve years during the zenith
Speaker 1: of my career. We had a house, and we had
Speaker 1: a Koi pond and pets, and we had a life. Yes,
Speaker 1: we were deeply closeted. She didn't want to come out
Speaker 1: I didn't want to come out.
Speaker 3: It was is Julie. This is Julie, Julie in your book, okayeh, Julia.
Speaker 1: Yep, And and it was just it was a non
Speaker 1: starter to come out. That was just not ever going
Speaker 1: to be something that happened. And in that twelve year period,
Speaker 1: we had ups and downs and we had breaks. And
Speaker 1: like many people who are like me gay, who know
Speaker 1: that they can't exist as who they are, they make
Speaker 1: decisions about partnering with people and it doesn't make that
Speaker 1: other person a beard. Sometimes it is, but sometimes and
Speaker 1: I the thousands of people I've heard from since I've
Speaker 1: come out about this exact thing playing out. When one
Speaker 1: knows that you can never be who you are in
Speaker 1: terms of your sexual orientation, you begin to think tactically
Speaker 1: and you begin to think, well, I knew I could
Speaker 1: never live as an openly gay country music artist, and
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go onto the dark web and
Speaker 1: find someone to date. That just wasn't Yeah, that wasn't
Speaker 1: something I was going to do. So I made decisions
Speaker 1: about partnership companionship, and my thinking was, if I'm going
Speaker 1: to have a partnership with someone, I'm going to pick
Speaker 1: someone that I like and enjoy and that makes me laugh,
Speaker 1: and that we write songs together and tour together and
Speaker 1: have shared values. You'll settle for that, Yeah, because millions
Speaker 1: of people have done it because they want to have
Speaker 1: a family, or they want to stay in the town
Speaker 1: that they live in and not get kicked out of
Speaker 1: their church or their neighborhood. So, you know, 's talk
Speaker 1: about Brad. You know many people are like, did he know?
Speaker 3: Was he?
Speaker 1: Or No? He didn't know. He had no idea. And
Speaker 1: I could not have picked a better, funnier, more talented,
Speaker 1: more kind of a person with whom I shared values
Speaker 1: and similarities. He understood my work, I understood his work.
Speaker 1: He was as lovely a human being, like if I'm
Speaker 1: going to I've always dated really amazing men. Because that's
Speaker 1: how I was thinking about it. Did in my wildest dreams,
Speaker 1: did I ever think that I would come out? No,
Speaker 1: So I wanted to have a life. Would it? Was
Speaker 1: it the life that exactly would have brought me the
Speaker 1: most joy. Again, I was in my twenties and thirties
Speaker 1: making these decisions, still thinking I could keep this thing hidden.
Speaker 1: So while there was a public relations benefit to it,
Speaker 1: there was also a long take a kind of whiplash
Speaker 1: of I knew that when I ended my relationship with
Speaker 1: Brad that was going to garner a lot of questions,
Speaker 1: a lot of speculation, and it did. So, Yeah, did
Speaker 1: I answer your questions.
Speaker 3: Really really well?
Speaker 2: And I think the way you talk about it is
Speaker 2: really relatable, even.
Speaker 3: For someone who doesn't understand that. I think that makes
Speaker 3: sense to a lot of people.
Speaker 2: I remember I dated a guy in college very briefly,
Speaker 2: and I liked him a lot, and it didn't last
Speaker 2: long at all. But a few years later he called
Speaker 2: me out of the blue just to say, okay, obviously
Speaker 2: it was gay then, and I thought it was really
Speaker 2: nice because he didn't owe me that personal private.
Speaker 3: Revelation.
Speaker 2: I would have found out at school we were in college,
Speaker 2: I would have heard about it.
Speaker 3: But it just honored I wasn't using you. I didn't
Speaker 3: want to be this.
Speaker 2: I didn't know if I had to be this as well,
Speaker 2: you know, and I really liked you, and you know,
Speaker 2: him telling that to me was I don't know, it
Speaker 2: was nice.
Speaker 3: It was a nice thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that is so nice. And so you know,
Speaker 1: I dated a lot of men beyond famous people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I had close friendships with men who did develop
Speaker 1: feelings for me that I didn't reciprocate, and and that
Speaker 1: there was a lot of There was a lot of
Speaker 1: hurt that that I, as a closeted queer person left
Speaker 1: in my wake. And that was another I talk about
Speaker 1: this in my book as well, is that I caused
Speaker 1: more harm to others trying to hide who I am
Speaker 1: than then I than i'd ever have as an open link.
Speaker 3: And then you would ever want to that. I wouldn't
Speaker 3: want to do that.
Speaker 1: Trying to talk your straight male friend who professes his
Speaker 1: love for you into no, no, no, you don't really
Speaker 1: love me. No I do I love I? Why can't
Speaker 1: we be together? Like the And I have gone back
Speaker 1: to a number of those men before I came out
Speaker 1: and certainly posts coming out, and we've had that deep
Speaker 1: conversation about you know, it wasn't you, It was me,
Speaker 1: And if I were to want to ever love a man,
Speaker 1: it would be you because you're amazing.
Speaker 3: It's complicated, and think about this just quickly.
Speaker 1: See when I've talked to so many men and women
Speaker 1: over the years who have said, you know, my I
Speaker 1: find I left my husband because I'm I'm gay, and
Speaker 1: we've got kids together, and I just I feel so
Speaker 1: guilty about it, or I left my wife. I'm gay,
Speaker 1: have been you know that I've never and and number one,
Speaker 1: I always say, okay, here, here's where you are. Good
Speaker 1: for you. That to a lot of courage and the
Speaker 1: gift that you've just given to the partner that you
Speaker 1: ended the marriage with. They are now and it takes
Speaker 1: a while to get there right. Heartbreak is real and
Speaker 1: healing is real. But now that person that you finally
Speaker 1: disclosed I'm gay, you deserve to be with someone who
Speaker 1: is wired to love you completely. And that is such
Speaker 1: a gift, painful as it is, rocky as the road
Speaker 1: might be. I don't want to be married to someone
Speaker 1: who isn't wired to love me completely.
Speaker 3: Or forcing it or lying. Yeah, of course, I think
Speaker 3: is a gift. That's a really good way of putting it.
Speaker 1: Think of how many women are married to men who
Speaker 1: haven't come out yet or don't want to acknowledge it.
Speaker 1: Think of how un desirable she must feel. Think of
Speaker 1: how many.
Speaker 3: She's questioning herself, what does she do exactly? What's wrong
Speaker 3: with me exactly?
Speaker 1: That's a gift, A giant, It's a giant gift. I mean,
Speaker 1: the truth really does open up a portal into so
Speaker 1: many gifts like that. Yes, so.
Speaker 2: I know you you lost some fans when you came out.
Speaker 3: You would that happen today?
Speaker 2: You know, if a big female artist came out today,
Speaker 2: would the industry?
Speaker 3: Would fans react? How would they react today?
Speaker 1: It's a really good question. And I think had we
Speaker 1: been talking about this five years ago, I would have
Speaker 1: a different answer. I would say change is happening. There
Speaker 1: will never have to be a first country music out
Speaker 1: of the closet like that. Won't ever have to happen again. No,
Speaker 1: And there have been many who have come out since
Speaker 1: I came out in twenty ten that said a like
Speaker 1: a current Are you talking about a current hit maker?
Speaker 2: You don't know, big big star? How would that be
Speaker 2: received today?
Speaker 1: Let's just talk about the American electorate. Ould how would
Speaker 1: you categorize the right in percentages versus the left? What
Speaker 1: are those numbers? Tell me, se Cup what those number?
Speaker 3: Fifty to fifty?
Speaker 1: Fifty to fifty? Okay, take that metric and then distill
Speaker 1: it down to a hyper historically hyper conservative industry that
Speaker 1: has not been known as a bastion of diversity equity, inclusion,
Speaker 1: and belonging, and so then do you think that fifty
Speaker 1: to fifty would hold? No, Okay, so if the American
Speaker 1: electorate at large is half and half, I would do
Speaker 1: some retooling with the numbers. I wouldn't think it would
Speaker 1: be half and half. I would think it would be.
Speaker 1: Off the top of my head, I think there'd be
Speaker 1: a seventy thirty, eighty twenty.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right right.
Speaker 1: But you know that's just my my hypothesis. I'm a
Speaker 1: pretty informed.
Speaker 3: I think no one knows better than you.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm Nashville. Here's the thing. Tricky
Speaker 1: thing about Nashville. The industry itself is very in many
Speaker 1: ways progressive and liberal. That said that, the product we
Speaker 1: have always known we are packaging up and selling to
Speaker 1: America is is to a different demographic. So, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of gay people in the industry in you know,
Speaker 1: at the record labels, publicists, hair and makeup artists, managers.
Speaker 1: But the product we are selling I think has been
Speaker 1: pretty proven to be being sold to a conservative audience.
Speaker 1: And I would say it's and I would say it's
Speaker 1: be becoming more galvanized in that direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, you're a boss. Now I want you
Speaker 2: to talk about what you do in your corporate life and.
Speaker 3: Whether it's as fulfilling as you hoped it would be.
Speaker 1: Let me answer the latter, yes, yes, because it's actually
Speaker 1: the same skill set I have used my entire life
Speaker 1: and career. And remember, you know, as a country music singer.
Speaker 1: Being in the music business, it was very heavy on
Speaker 1: the business can I Actually I think I'm a pretty
Speaker 1: good singer songwriter, But I think I tended to my
Speaker 1: the business piece of it with a lot of focus
Speaker 1: and strategy and discipline, which is why I think I
Speaker 1: was lucky to have a career that spanned a few decades.
Speaker 1: So and not all artists are that, not all artists
Speaker 1: want to be that, but that was kind of how
Speaker 1: I think I was seen in the industry and which
Speaker 1: delights me. And so the skill set is entirely transferable. Storytelling, leadership,
Speaker 1: attention to detail, being on time, being a really good listener,
Speaker 1: being a good communicator, distilling information. Reading a crowd is
Speaker 1: the exact same thing as reading a boardroom, and so
Speaker 1: I currently so when COVID hit, I took a new
Speaker 1: client and then took a full time role as chief
Speaker 1: Diversity officer with a global design build firm called Unispace
Speaker 1: based out of Australia, did that for four years and
Speaker 1: now I've pivoted over to an even bigger company, a
Speaker 1: Denmark based company. Three hundred and three hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: thousand people in the company, and we do facilities management.
Speaker 1: The company is called ISS, not International Space Station, not ISIS.
Speaker 1: I do not want right, but we dodies management. I
Speaker 1: e would simply put, we do janitorial technical services in
Speaker 1: corporate dining. Yes, and so it is it. It is
Speaker 1: so delightful and so rewarding that I get to I
Speaker 1: lead up our corporate social responsibility and new market growth.
Speaker 1: So I get to play in the spaces that I
Speaker 1: love to play in. And it's really wild. What is
Speaker 1: behind that door? Just wild?
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that for you. Okay, this
Speaker 3: is uh.
Speaker 2: We're going to do a lightning round to end at
Speaker 2: this incredible episode.
Speaker 1: I hate that this is over. There's so much more
Speaker 1: to talk about me too.
Speaker 3: Literally could do this all day with you now.
Speaker 1: If I get to come back to your podcast, Asie
Speaker 1: is there is there are there pajamas like a two
Speaker 1: time club. I know, Andy Astroy, our pal has like
Speaker 1: our ropes, right, got a robe? I'm just remember on
Speaker 1: did you ever do the Ellen Show?
Speaker 3: I didn't know?
Speaker 1: Okay, so she gave out these cute boxer brief boxer briefs,
Speaker 1: but I still have mine. I'm really great for sleeping.
Speaker 1: I just want you to just kind of begetting merch. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I'm gonna.
Speaker 2: Know that I've got lots of show swag too. And
Speaker 2: we've never had a returning guest. Oh, so we'll have
Speaker 2: to think about that.
Speaker 1: How many years has have you had the podcast?
Speaker 3: This is our second season.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're gonna have some returners.
Speaker 2: Probably we're going to okay for sure, and uh, you'd
Speaker 2: be top of the list. Okay, So I will start
Speaker 2: thinking about a gift for repeat repeat offenders.
Speaker 3: That's okay, great.
Speaker 1: I just want to advocate for soft PaJaMo bottoms. I
Speaker 1: love it, okay, Okay.
Speaker 3: Great, great, great, that's very on brand for me too,
Speaker 3: as you can. I like being comfortable.
Speaker 1: Love it, okay. Lightning Round.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and two, you're named one of People Magazine's
Speaker 2: fifty most beauty full people. Totally deserved, but any insight
Speaker 2: as to how that list comes to be?
Speaker 3: What do you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's all just a machinery of publicity. I
Speaker 1: had a great publicist, Leslie Kilner at the time, and
Speaker 1: she worked with my She with MCA Records, and they
Speaker 1: just I my star was rising. I'd had a couple
Speaker 1: of big hits, and that's just kind of one of
Speaker 1: the things that they do.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's how people what people assume.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, notice when you look at the list
Speaker 1: when it comes out, it's no one who doesn't have
Speaker 1: a project out. Yeah, right right, So, I mean, as
Speaker 1: flattering at it as it is to be named, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the fifty most beautiful people, it's just and
Speaker 1: George Holtz took gorgeous photos. Yeah, and so, but it
Speaker 1: was it's just it's a it's a pr piece, that's
Speaker 1: that's all.
Speaker 3: We both got married in Connecticut. Where did you tie
Speaker 3: them up?
Speaker 1: We got married, so I have two dates in my
Speaker 1: wedding band. We planned our wedding for Litchfield, Connecticut in
Speaker 1: twenty eleven because we were not allowed to get married
Speaker 1: in New York City.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: But about a month or so before our actual wedding,
Speaker 1: marriage equality became legal in New York City, so we
Speaker 1: did that lottery system. Got chosen to get married in
Speaker 1: Manhattan on the first day that marriage equality is legal,
Speaker 1: So we have two dates in our wedding bands.
Speaker 2: I love that new country or old country, and who's
Speaker 2: the best from both?
Speaker 3: Mmmm?
Speaker 1: Well, Lorette Alynne is my favorite of all time. Great
Speaker 1: new country. Gosh. I love Maren Morris.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's great.
Speaker 1: I love Maren Morris. And you know, country country music
Speaker 1: has had its way of kind of pushing her aside.
Speaker 1: She's harry, outspoken. I think she has recently said she
Speaker 1: might be a little by curious or yeah, right, her,
Speaker 1: she her songwriting, her just everything. I just think she's fantastic.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then Alison Krause, I know she's not a new artist,
Speaker 1: but you just she's still touring, she's still making new records.
Speaker 1: And then also, let me just say Leanne Womack Womac
Speaker 1: and Trisha Yearwood and ty Herndon. Okay, the three biggest places.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just I can't stop. These are not
Speaker 1: only are they all my pals, but they are I
Speaker 1: go down to Leanne Womack hole sometimes I put on
Speaker 1: the fool and then I'm done. I'm dying. Kids just
Speaker 1: can't stop anyway. So a lot of good country music
Speaker 1: out there, but in terms of traditional country Buck Owens,
Speaker 1: Connie Smith, the Red Lynn.
Speaker 3: Love It, that's it?
Speaker 2: Okay, this is this is tough. What movie about country
Speaker 2: music is the best? What's the best movie about country music?
Speaker 1: Coal Miner's Daughter?
Speaker 2: Okay, I I was thinking that's probably the correct answer.
Speaker 2: I don't make cases for Walk the Line.
Speaker 1: You could make a I didn't see Walk the Line.
Speaker 3: That's fair. I could make a case for Rhinestone, which
Speaker 3: I know is like pand but man is a kid?
Speaker 3: I love that movie. I love that movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, really good stuff.
Speaker 3: But Cole Miner's Daughter is like the right answer.
Speaker 1: I mean anything Dolly is in like great.
Speaker 3: Automatically great.
Speaker 1: And I could also, if I wanted to, I could
Speaker 1: make a case that Steel Magnolia's had a little country
Speaker 1: music to it, maybe because Dolly was in it. Sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And but I'm gonna I'm gonna go final answer Coal
Speaker 1: Miner's Daughter.
Speaker 2: That is I think fairly uncontroversial, inarguable, that's great.
Speaker 3: What's your favorite thing to do alone?
Speaker 1: Walk me too?
Speaker 3: What's your sleep routine? Do you have one?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 3: Is it complicated? Is it interesting.
Speaker 1: I have struggled with sleep my entire life. I can
Speaker 1: have been up for forty hours and still have a
Speaker 1: hard time falling asleep. I think all the years of
Speaker 1: touring overriding my circadian rhythm probably mess me. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: put lotion on my feet every night before I go
Speaker 1: to bed. I am the softest person in Panit Earth.
Speaker 1: I move a lot. I have to get into a
Speaker 1: lot of different positions. I have a leg pillow. I
Speaker 1: have to sleep in a king bed with my wife.
Speaker 1: I don't even understand how people sleep in full and
Speaker 1: queen beds. This morning, for instance, I've been awake since
Speaker 1: three twenty eight. Oh that's bright so and I'm in menopause,
Speaker 1: which tracks right. Ye, but sleep routine, I would say
Speaker 1: my go to Lauren is in bed a good twenty
Speaker 1: minutes before I am.
Speaker 3: Is the crucial? Is it crucial that she's in bed first?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: She It kind of kills me, kind of makes me
Speaker 1: mad sometimes because she doesn't have quite the reto I
Speaker 1: take off my makeup. She doesn't really wear makeup. She's
Speaker 1: just like lightning fast red meg. Yeah, and I resent
Speaker 1: it so I sometimes want I heard it like stay up,
Speaker 1: stay upright? Until I can get in bed too. But
Speaker 1: that's that's fun.
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 1: I don't know why it makes me Some days it
Speaker 1: really makes me mad. But anyway, Yeah, the footloation that
Speaker 1: I have a very Pavlovian kind of Oh it's bedtime
Speaker 1: when I put on my foot loation.
Speaker 3: Great. Yeah, we got to find what works.
Speaker 2: As we mentioned, Beyonce crossed over to country last year
Speaker 2: with a lot of success post Malone, Daaries Rucker or
Speaker 2: others have done it. Who's an artist today you think
Speaker 2: could and should make the crossover?
Speaker 1: Well, I on my late walk last night, I was
Speaker 1: listening to Amy Poehlar's podcast Good Hang.
Speaker 3: Yes, I listened to it all the time.
Speaker 1: It's a giant fan. Well, she had Kristin Wig on. Yes,
Speaker 1: and at the end of the episode, you know, Kristen
Speaker 1: sings and Kristin is like throwing out she was. Amy's like,
Speaker 1: you should make a record, and Kristin is like, how
Speaker 1: do I? I would love to. I don't even know
Speaker 1: how to start. I have it in my head now
Speaker 1: because she has a lovely voice. She actually so I
Speaker 1: am a I'm I'm starting a movement and see you
Speaker 1: can join me. Yes, I think the next artist should
Speaker 1: be a crossover from Saturday Night Lives Kristin Wig to
Speaker 1: Americana artist Kristin Wig. I know that sounds like a joke,
Speaker 1: but I think she needs to make a record, and
Speaker 1: I have a sense she really wants to make a record.
Speaker 3: Let's speak it into existence.
Speaker 1: I mean I could produce a couple sides as you can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my gosh, well I love that. Fantastic talked
Speaker 2: about country. But who's your favorite folk singer or folk band?
Speaker 1: Rodney Growell? Okay, okay, cool stop. He produced, not only
Speaker 1: and it's not because he produced a record of mine
Speaker 1: and we've written songs together. But oh gosh, I'm going
Speaker 1: to change my answer. Rodney and an equal measure, Roseanne Cash.
Speaker 1: Yes they used to be married, Yes they share children
Speaker 1: and grandchildren, and yes they are individual artists. But for
Speaker 1: my money today, if you're looking at an important body
Speaker 1: of work, yes, and two artists who reflect what is
Speaker 1: happening in the world exquisitely, expertly, provocatively, empathetically with a
Speaker 1: lot of intelligence. Yep, and that's what folk music is
Speaker 1: supposed to do. Yes, it's Rodney Crowell and Roseanne Cash.
Speaker 3: It's great. I love seven year ach. That's such a good.
Speaker 1: Song, so good. What a backbeat like?
Speaker 2: What a pucket?
Speaker 1: It's so good, so good, so good.
Speaker 3: This is the last question.
Speaker 2: It's the most important to me. I'm spiritual about it.
Speaker 2: It's culturally important to me. When is it iced coffee season?
Speaker 1: Not for me? Okay, I'm hot coffee all year long.
Speaker 3: Okay. But the important part is you like coffee?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love coffee. I have two cups, two
Speaker 1: giant cups, every morning, and I don't typically have coffee
Speaker 1: in the day after that. Now, if it's one hundred
Speaker 1: and ten degrees out, I will get a rando iced coffee.
Speaker 1: But I am kind of coffee. Yeah, hot coffee all
Speaker 1: year long, every day.
Speaker 3: It's not the correct answer, Shelley.
Speaker 1: But American America runs on Duncan, and so does SI cup.
Speaker 3: Well, I definitely do. But no, that's okay.
Speaker 2: The correct answer is year round. But we just appreciate
Speaker 2: hear it off the cup where coffee is very important
Speaker 2: to us. We just appreciate that you like coffee.
Speaker 1: I don't align with anyone who doesn't. In fact, I
Speaker 1: question their ethics perfect. I've got a lot of colleagues
Speaker 1: who say I don't drink coffee. I drink tea, and
Speaker 1: I'm like dilete, I don't understand you.
Speaker 3: We don't speak the same light.
Speaker 1: Yet She's sorry if we're not aligned, our values don't align.
Speaker 2: Lly right, this was incredible. I knew this was going
Speaker 2: to be great, but even better than I thought. And
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad we did it. And I'm so
Speaker 2: glad you're in this world and sharing all of your
Speaker 2: talents in all of the places, because everyone deserves to
Speaker 2: be touched by you just a little bit in some way.
Speaker 1: Essie, thank you for that. I love you, I admire you,
Speaker 1: I see you. You are an expert thinker, and we
Speaker 1: have to be thinking expertly in these moments. And there
Speaker 1: are days when I feel like crawling under the blankets. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I don't, because we just don't have that luxury.
Speaker 1: And it is voices like yours and brains like yours,
Speaker 1: and you're a mosaic and I love all of your
Speaker 1: pieces and you're really unique. And I don't know how
Speaker 1: many times you have gotten me through a day since
Speaker 1: you know, in the past, since I think COVID pre COVID.
Speaker 1: I just am delighted and honored to be on your
Speaker 1: podcast and to be your friend.
Speaker 3: Thank you, It's mutual. Thank you, Lessie.
Speaker 2: Coming up next week on Off the Cup, I sit
Speaker 2: down with the west Wings Janelle Maloney.
Speaker 4: There's this crazy thing now where it feels like I'm
Speaker 4: on a hit show that I did twenty five years ago.
Speaker 3: It's great.
Speaker 1: Everyone's so great.
Speaker 4: The fans are great, many many, many of them were
Speaker 4: not born when we started West Wing.
Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Network.
Speaker 3: If you want more, check out the other Reason.
Speaker 2: Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and Native Land pod.
Speaker 2: For Off the Cup, I'm your host, Si Cup. Editing
Speaker 2: and sound design by Derek Clements. Our executive producers are
Speaker 2: me Si Coup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and
Speaker 2: review wherever you get your podcasts. Follow or subscribe for
Speaker 2: new episodes every Wednesday.
Speaker 4: H