WEBVTT - Chely Wright, Country's Queer Icon 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:04.480 In my heart and who I am naturally is a 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:09.600 really authentic, open, honest person. But the hardest thing for 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.399 me to write in my book was I became a 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:13.600 skilled liar. 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.720 Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote. 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:22.240 We talk a lot on this show, as you know, 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.599 about career arcs and how many lives we might get 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.720 to live or have to live, depending on your perspective. 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.239 And it's such a fascinating, rich topic for me because 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.919 I've been going through a kind of midlife something. It's 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.839 not a crisis per se, and it's not entirely just 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:45.320 because of my age, although that plays a part. It's 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.920 because of where I am in my career, where my 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.160 industry is, where the world is, and I know I'm 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:57.279 not alone and feeling angsty and anxious and confused. And 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.360 we get to these crossroads sometimes start asking some very 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.760 scary questions like who am I without this job? Do 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.120 I even like my job? Could I do something else? 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.240 What would that look like if I leave my job? 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.280 Can I ever come back if I want? Are they 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.360 kicking me out for good? Will I be good at 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:22.720 something else? So scary but also so important, And these 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.400 are the moments that can change our lives in ways 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.360 we can't even foresee, we can't imagine. And for people 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:29.759 like me who are like I need to know what's 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:31.440 on the other side of that door before I open it, 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:33.120 it's really scary. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:35.160 And the thing you can't imagine on the. 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.200 Other side of the door might be better than whatever 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.720 you're predicting. So today's guest has lived many, many lives, 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.080 so many lives, and I really admire her for her strength, 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:50.120 her courage, her sense of adventure. She's someone who seems 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:51.880 to just constantly say I'm. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:53.440 Just gonna go do that. I'm just gonna go do it, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:55.920 And I love that so much. 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.280 I want to be more like that. She's an award 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.559 winning rue music artist. She's an activist, she's an author, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.480 she's a corporate boss. Welcome to Off the Cops, Shelley, Right. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.519 Essie, I'm so glad to be here with you. Wow, 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:12.440 what an intro. 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:13.839 I'm so glad. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:15.920 I mean I could do your whole bio, which is great, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:17.480 you have a very impressive bio. 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.520 But like hear it off the cup, these are. 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.840 The conversations we want to have, Yeah, asking ourselves the 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.200 scary questions and like how did you how'd you get 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:25.959 past that question? 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:26.880 How'd you answer it? 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.240 And I'm so glad we finally get to do this 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.560 together when I don't remember when we met. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:33.919 When do you think we met? 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.000 Yeah? I was thinking about that a couple of weeks ago. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.240 I feel like because I think my wife said, how 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.760 do you? How long have you known Essie? Obviously you 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.239 and I have history in the recent in recent years 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.119 working on a project together. We'll get into that. I 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.160 think that the first time you and I met was 0:02:55.360 --> 0:03:00.520 at thirty Rock, and I think we were both in 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.919 the green room about to do a hit on either 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.240 an NBC or MSNBC. Is that close? 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.760 I think that's right. Would would this have been twenty 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:13.280 eleven or twelve? 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.880 Probably? Yes, probably around that time. So I came out 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.959 of the closet in twenty ten, And of course we'll 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.760 get to all of that, yep. But I you know, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.960 in between twenty ten and twenty fifteen, I was there 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.680 a lot, doing a lot of stuff, and I feel 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.240 like that's when we met. And I feel like, too, 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.600 you it was the two of us in a green room, 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.520 and I want to say it was Mira Sorvino in 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.480 there with her Dad. Yes, Oh my god, yes, I 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.040 just that just came to me. I feel like I 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.200 feel like they had a project and they were talking 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.560 about it and it was just us and then in 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.600 walks Paul and Mira and I think you and I 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.320 both looked at one another like, whoa. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.320 Shelley, You're so right. 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.440 And I would never have remembered that part of it, 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:04.880 But now that you say that, oh, it's vivid, right, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.280 memory is vivid. Yeah, Oh, I remember even which green 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:10.680 room we were in, because okay, so here's the I 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:11.680 was at MSNBC. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:12.880 I had a show at MSNBC. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.000 I wasn't in the green room a lot because I 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.080 had an office there, but I was in the green 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.120 room this day because I was going on a show 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.240 I didn't normally go on. And I don't remember if 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.240 we were going on Morning Joe or we were going 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.839 on with like Chris Jansen or Thomas Roberts. But it 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.160 wasn't a show I was doing. All the time. 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.119 You were guesting. You were guesting on someone else's show 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.040 and you had a show there at the same time. Correct, Yes, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:42.920 this all makes sense. And you know what. 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:44.080 All makes sense. 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.160 This is the new truth. We're allowed to make things up. Now, 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:48.920 even if this isn't true. 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.479 We'll just say it is. That's right, let's say that's 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.360 that's what it was. No, but I feel really good 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.080 about it. Yeah, I feel like that's for sure. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:57.039 It Yeah, for sure. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:58.159 I'm so glad you remembered that. 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.000 Okay, and as you were, I I may see as 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.960 you were kind of giving a little intro to me 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.080 at the top, but asking yourself out loud, those questions 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.719 you've asked yourself. I realized that those are all of 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.440 the question. You've nailed it. That is the full complement 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:14.320 of questions. 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.880 Yeah, done deal, Yes, well, and I can't We're going 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.240 to get to that part. But like, I know what 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:27.599 questions you're asking yourself because I'm here. Yeah, and I've 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.840 been here, so yeah, we just I feel like we 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:32.800 have a lot in common. We're gonna get to it, 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.279 and I want to talk about so many things. But first, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:37.440 can I just get your take on a couple country 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.000 music adjacent news items. 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:40.920 Yeah, okay, I'm here for it. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.200 Okay, Okay, this will be quick, but like you're here, 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:47.200 I need your take, Keith Urban, Nicole Kidman, your thoughts. 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:53.000 Ooh, I have met Nicole on a couple of occasions, quickly, 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:59.280 briefly in industry circles I have. I would consider Keith 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:05.880 a friend since the mid nineties. Yes, I think divorces 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.360 hard and breakups are hard, and they're hard whether you're 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.640 a publicly known person or not. But the lens of 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:20.760 fame and kids an intersection of all of that, it's 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.360 just it's hard. I just hope we can stay out 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.520 of it and let them have their Yeah, let them 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.520 have their marital breakdown. There's probably a lot going on 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.680 that we don't know, nor should we, nor is it 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:39.120 any of our business. But nineteen years married. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.120 That's a giant success, agreeing to kids. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.880 So I here's what's making me mad about this story. 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:47.719 People are. 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:55.000 Imposing an explanation onto this, like he was threatened by 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:55.760 her success. 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.479 That's what's let oh. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:02.560 Really well, like I said, I don't know, we don't know, yeah, anything. Yeah, 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:04.880 And they're pointing to the fact that he, in past 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.760 interviews gets very reticent about talking about her, like this 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:10.400 is somehow proof. 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:12.360 That he's jealous of her. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:13.080 Yeah. 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.240 Maybe she said, honey, don't talk about me because I 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.800 want these interviews to be about you. And when they 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.080 ask me about you just shut it down. I don't 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:23.280 need to be in your headline. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:24.320 Maybe this was her. 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.400 I just feel like we psychologize these celebrities and it's 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.800 like we're inventing shit out of thin air. 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.720 Yeah. I wish we'd stop doing that. I mean, you know, 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.520 I look I like a soap operas next as much 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.440 as the next person. And same. You know, I remember 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.840 being a kid, and you know, there weren't that many 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.040 tabloids at the time, but I remember being interested in 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:59.760 you know, Glenn Campbell and Tanya Tucker. You know, breakups, breakdowns, breakthroughs, marriages, divorces, 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.600 kids out of wedlow, It's all happened. This has been 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:07.880 around forever. And you know, here's what I know. I 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:12.040 love Keith urban To in his just to his core, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.440 in my core. And I assume that the woman he 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.720 made a life with for nineteen years and built a 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.840 family with is of his ilk. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.240 And something worked. 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.640 Something worked, Yeah, something worked, And it's I think of 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:33.920 the what is that? What is that it's a poem about? 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.520 Instead of talking about how we're falling, let's think about 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:39.800 how long we were in the air. 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:41.000 Nice? 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.320 Yeah, great, Okay, have you heard about the new Beyonce rule. 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.800 I am aware at a high level of the new 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:49.640 Beyonce rule. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.000 Okay, to explain for people, Beyonce wins Best Country Album 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.640 at the Grammys in February. It was a little controversial 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.520 inside country music circles. Four months later, the Recording Academy, 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.120 the Grammys breaks up the country category into two Best 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.120 Contemporary Country, Best Traditional Country. The Academy says it will 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:12.199 award modern country while still recognizing subgenres like Americana. 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:18.080 Your thoughts, Yeah, I don't love it. I listened to 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:22.120 the Beyonce record and to end, I put good headphones on, 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:24.800 you know, laid on the floor and gave it the 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:30.160 listen it deserves. It's as country a record as anything 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.040 else that is coming out of Nashville or has come 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:37.000 out of Nashville for decades. I would ask us to 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.760 be self reflective as an industry and ask ourselves what's different? 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:48.000 What's different about Beyonce? Why did that really? Bryal us up? 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:51.360 A good question? Good question. 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.080 I mean, I think back to when Shanaia Twain, you know, 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.240 obviously she had a couple of albums before she and 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.600 Mutt Lange teamed up and made you know, genre busting, 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:07.240 genre defining records, and people had the same complaints about, oh, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.680 it's not country enough, and that said, you know, we 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.240 let her in, I mean, and she was a product 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.200 of Music Row by the way, she'd had a couple 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.840 of records out, you know, our Mercury records before those 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.719 records exploded. All of this is to say that Nashville 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:28.720 doesn't really do a great job. They're not ultra comfortable 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:33.840 with someone coming in that they didn't that didn't kiss 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.520 the ring, that they didn't raise it, that they didn't manufacture, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.360 that they can't take credit for. And still, what is 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.840 different about Beyonce. She's a woman of color. This is 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.520 a black woman who owns all of her power and 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.280 brings it to bear in every space that she embodies. 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:59.400 And that is a country record by every metric that 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.200 we are looking at in contemporary country music today. 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:04.440 Okay, you heard it here. 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:06.960 And then for the for the new genre of the 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:12.200 classic the traditional country record, my vote, full stop goes 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:18.760 for Sonny Sweeney, her new record that let's just call it, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.400 let's just we have a winner. Let's just say that. 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:22.640 Okay, we'll check back. 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:25.680 That's who I want. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.000 That's why I went to okay Bad Bunny at the 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.280 super Bowl. A lot of country artists feel as though 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.880 country music keeps breaking all these records and then the 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:36.480 super Bowl keeps ignoring it. 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:43.160 Your thoughts, Yeah, well, we've had country artists at the 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:49.360 super Bowl before it's happened. Bad Bunny is the right choice. 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:57.720 I think his downloads have surpassed even Tailor's. Bad Bunny 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:03.240 is arguably the biggest artist right now in the world, 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:10.319 and given that the NFL is and has been aiming 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:15.000 toward a more global audience, it's the right choice. I 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:19.360 know that everyone wants to think it's a political play, 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.880 and maybe there's a tinge of that, but I don't 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:30.000 know that the wider, the big global NFL audience wants 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:37.000 something different country music in some incredible stars that are 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:45.280 filling stadiums, right yeah, Brian, Yeah, Morgan Wallin obviously Kenny 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.920 Chesney Can continues to do it. But I think the 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:54.920 Bad Bunny appointment it meets the moment of where we are. 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.680 And I'm an I'm a huge NFL fan, and I 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:02.120 know you are as well. I'm I'm here for it 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.360 and have I ever bought a Bad Bad Bunny record? 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.640 I have not but I went the other day and listen, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.480 I was like, oh, I know that, I know that, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.240 I know that. I can totally see why the NFL 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:13.800 made this time. 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.600 I saw Bobby Bones, who's a friend I know you 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.160 know him too. He was saying, listen, Bad Buddies not 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.439 for me. That's okay, Like not. 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:28.120 Everyone has not everyone has to be for everyone. What Yeah, 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:29.679 I like Bad Buddy. 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.480 It's fun, it's fun music. He's not my favorite, but 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:33.800 it's not for me. 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:35.480 That's okay. Is that okay? 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.560 And when you think about yeah again, I've it's not 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.560 I'm not going to a Bad Bunny concertor yeah, but 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.640 that's okay. But when I see what the NFL kind 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:50.560 of the pre show, the first half, how someone has 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.000 to be able to hold up that energy and that 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:58.040 viewership in that halftime show, which is just iconic, we 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.959 it makes sense. It makes so much sense. Okay, good job, that. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:02.440 Was the news. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.439 Thank you so much, Shelly Wright for your analysis. 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:20.080 Glad Toad, let's. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.280 Get to you, and let's go back to the beginning. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.600 I always like to ask, what kind of kid were you? 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:32.840 Oh, that's a great question. I was Okay, I was 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:38.800 a total weirdo. Still am a card carrying weirdo too. 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:43.560 I you know, I'm a nerd. I never got in trouble. 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.840 I was a brown noser. I sat on the front 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.920 row of class, I raised my hand, I always had 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:55.600 my homework done. Now part of this should be seen 0:14:55.680 --> 0:15:00.760 through the lens of hypervigilance as a closeted queer. Yes, 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.480 in a town in Kansas where there were churches on 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:06.600 nearly every corner. 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:08.000 So were you can? 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.640 I just ask, yeah, partly because that were you a 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.360 pleaser if I please people? 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.680 Yes? And I had to be. And I was a 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.760 person of faith at a very young age, a genuine 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.960 My faith practice is really important to me, and it 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.480 always has been. I knew that I was a person 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.600 of faith before I knew I was gay. So it's 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:38.400 not that I ran toward religion to fix me. And 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.840 I put that in air quotes because I thought I 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:46.160 was spiritually you know, damned once I realized I was gay. 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:53.200 But so many kind of things coexisted in me that 0:15:53.440 --> 0:16:02.680 I think are interesting in that people pleasers typically follow 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:07.880 a path and a trajectory that everyone else does. So 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:13.240 I followed the path of get give straight. A student 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:18.680 homecoming queen captain of my basketball team, president of the 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:25.280 band First Trumpet, dating boys, dating boys, I mean, you 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.400 can get into that fish. I did. I wasn't that 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.920 committed to it for obvious reasons. But so I would 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:36.840 take that path, but then I would diverge wildly from 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.880 the path, which got me in some trouble with my 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:44.480 peer group, caused some bullying. You know, I was the 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.320 recipient of some bullying. And then I also had this 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.960 crazy notion that I was going to go to Nashville 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.320 and become a country music singer and sing on the 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.240 radio and sing on the opry. So I think, through 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.440 a people pleasing lens, that was pretty wild. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:10.560 Yeah, right, And I know you realized you were gay young. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.040 After you realized you were a spiritual person. Love, faith 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.400 in religion was important, but you knew you couldn't live openly. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.520 I think we can all imagine why the pressures, but 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.280 I just want to hear in your words, why did 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.399 you feel like you couldn't live openly? Identify those points 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:29.679 of resistance for you. 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.119 Yeah. So when I was I was baptized when I 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:37.000 was six in the Christian Church, which is you know, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.199 there wasn't even a Catholic church in my town. It 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:44.160 was Methodists, Community Baptist, Baptist, all these kind of versions 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.840 of that. No one looked different in my town. Everyone 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.760 was white. We did have a couple of Catholics. No 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:57.560 Jews in my town, certainly no gay people, wink wink. 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:03.040 Yeah right. And when I was nine, I realized, and 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.160 I'll keep this brief, I was in third grade and 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:10.600 I had a beautiful teacher named Miss Smiley, Laura Smiley. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.919 She was young, big, bright smile, you know, perfectly named. 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.240 Over the weekends, I just couldn't wait to get back 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.679 to school on Monday, and I just thought, I just wondered, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.719 does she miss us? Does she miss the students like 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.280 we miss her? And I began to have kind of 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.560 little conversations with my friends, and I realized no one 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.000 was dying to get back to school on Monday like 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.720 I was. And then to see her. And then I realized, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.760 uh oh, and why was this troubling that I had 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:44.480 a crush on my third grade teacher? Because everything being 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.720 talked about in my church, in my community, on the news, 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.640 and you know, I grew up in a farm community, 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.840 a ton of a thousand people. Teachers told gay jokes, 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:02.000 in my school, the word faggot was used by a 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.800 couple of teachers and Jim coaches, you know, and it 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.120 was widely used in the hallway, as no one got 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.439 in trouble for saying anything like that. There was a 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.200 game called smear the queer with the football, which meant 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.439 it's like a hot potato, you throw the foot. If 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.800 you can't get rid of it, everybody has license to 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.919 beat the crap out of you. And the preacher in 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:27.080 my preacher, Warren Skiles, talked about evil people and he 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.120 was a fantastic influence on my life. And he knew 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.000 not what he was doing. He would use the words 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:40.560 in his sermons drunkard, thief, adulterer, murderer, homosexual, and so 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.919 this is why I knew I could never ever share 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.040 my secret or be that. And then of course, when 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:52.000 I was nine, you know, realizing I was gay, I 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.600 had for five years had this dream of making it 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.159 to Nashville. So this wasn't And you know, people have 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.360 asked me, well, why did you decide to go into 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.399 country music once you realized you were gay? I'm like 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.280 being a country music artist. That dream predated my understanding 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:09.240 who I was as. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.280 A and maybe it wasn't even a decision, it was 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:12.600 a calling, like how do you? 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:13.440 Yeah? 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.960 I mean, when I was obsessed with Loretta Lynn buck Owens, 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.199 Conway Twitty, Connie Smith, there was just there was there 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.439 was no options. So so and then I knew that 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.920 I was going into an industry in which no one 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.960 had ever identified being gay. And when I got to 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.360 Nashville in nineteen eighty nine, I just doubled down on 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.840 my yea, you know that, Well, it's sure not going 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.040 to be me. I'm not going to be the first 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.800 one out of the closet and lo and behold you know, 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.920 long story short. Twenty years later it was I you were. 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.439 Yeah, yeah, so you're young, you have a vision of 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.119 your future in no nowhere on the horizon is a 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.680 place where you can be yourself. That just doesn't it's 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.840 not it's not happening. And when you feel that, when 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:01.560 you feel shame as a child, when you have to 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.840 hide something that fundamental as a child, that's a trauma. 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.600 And as you know, traumas imprint on us, they show 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:12.359 up later. So how did your trauma from that show 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:13.359 up later in life? 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.879 Ooh, it's a really good question. I've been asked a 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.280 lot of questions, and I don't think anyone's asked me that. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.280 That's my favorite thing to hear. 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.159 You're good at your work, guessie. 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:26.600 Thanks. 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.480 Let me just quickly just talk about the when I 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.880 was younger and thinking that's not a life I could ever, 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:38.120 I can't ever be myself as a gay person. Yeah. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:44.160 The notion of that seems much more reasonable when you're nine, eleven, sixteen, nineteen, 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.800 because one doesn't at those ages really realize what weight 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.439 companionship and love have. Yeah, so when you're ten, you 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.639 can say, oh, I'll just never be that. I'll just 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:02.639 focus on the music. It's an unfair contract to sign 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.600 at that time. But to answer your question, how did 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:11.080 those traumas show up in my life later? I think 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:20.280 I developed such a muscle memory around perfection and a 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:22.720 skill set that I didn't and I wrote about this 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.040 in my book, a skill set that I didn't love, 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:33.199 which was having the ability to compartmentalize and in my 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.240 heart and who I am naturally is a really authentic, open, 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:41.560 honest person. But the hardest thing for me to write 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:46.000 in my book was I became a skilled liar and 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:50.840 coming out I had to really address that and own 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.240 that and hope that people instead of saying, see, I 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.560 knew it, You're a liar. You've been true, You've been 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.879 tricking us the whole time. I had to trust that 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:03.640 that the majority of people would say, tell me why 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:05.760 you felt like you had to be a liar? Yeah, 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.159 That's what I needed people to get to, and I 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.240 just had to trust that they would. 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:18.480 Your mom, how did your experience as a kid impact 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.120 the way you are seeing your children now? I came 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:26.000 across something you said were you talked about having sympathy 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.480 for the little you, and that resonates so much with 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:31.800 me because you know, in therapy we do that, we 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.800 try to show up for the little us as the 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.080 grown up us because maybe we felt as kids we 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:43.520 weren't being shown up for, and so seeing little us 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:48.200