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Speaker 1: In my heart and who I am naturally is a

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Speaker 1: really authentic, open, honest person. But the hardest thing for

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Speaker 1: me to write in my book was I became a

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Speaker 1: skilled liar.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.

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Speaker 2: We talk a lot on this show, as you know,

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Speaker 2: about career arcs and how many lives we might get

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Speaker 2: to live or have to live, depending on your perspective.

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Speaker 2: And it's such a fascinating, rich topic for me because

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Speaker 2: I've been going through a kind of midlife something. It's

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Speaker 2: not a crisis per se, and it's not entirely just

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Speaker 2: because of my age, although that plays a part. It's

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Speaker 2: because of where I am in my career, where my

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Speaker 2: industry is, where the world is, and I know I'm

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Speaker 2: not alone and feeling angsty and anxious and confused. And

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Speaker 2: we get to these crossroads sometimes start asking some very

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Speaker 2: scary questions like who am I without this job? Do

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Speaker 2: I even like my job? Could I do something else?

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Speaker 2: What would that look like if I leave my job?

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Speaker 2: Can I ever come back if I want? Are they

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Speaker 2: kicking me out for good? Will I be good at

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Speaker 2: something else? So scary but also so important, And these

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Speaker 2: are the moments that can change our lives in ways

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Speaker 2: we can't even foresee, we can't imagine. And for people

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Speaker 2: like me who are like I need to know what's

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Speaker 2: on the other side of that door before I open it,

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Speaker 2: it's really scary.

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Speaker 3: And the thing you can't imagine on the.

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Speaker 2: Other side of the door might be better than whatever

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Speaker 2: you're predicting. So today's guest has lived many, many lives,

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Speaker 2: so many lives, and I really admire her for her strength,

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Speaker 2: her courage, her sense of adventure. She's someone who seems

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Speaker 2: to just constantly say I'm.

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Speaker 3: Just gonna go do that. I'm just gonna go do it,

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Speaker 3: And I love that so much.

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Speaker 2: I want to be more like that. She's an award

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Speaker 2: winning rue music artist. She's an activist, she's an author,

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Speaker 2: she's a corporate boss. Welcome to Off the Cops, Shelley, Right.

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Speaker 1: Essie, I'm so glad to be here with you. Wow,

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Speaker 1: what an intro.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad.

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Speaker 2: I mean I could do your whole bio, which is great,

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Speaker 2: you have a very impressive bio.

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Speaker 3: But like hear it off the cup, these are.

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Speaker 2: The conversations we want to have, Yeah, asking ourselves the

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Speaker 2: scary questions and like how did you how'd you get

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Speaker 2: past that question?

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Speaker 3: How'd you answer it?

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Speaker 2: And I'm so glad we finally get to do this

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Speaker 2: together when I don't remember when we met.

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Speaker 3: When do you think we met?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I was thinking about that a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: I feel like because I think my wife said, how

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Speaker 1: do you? How long have you known Essie? Obviously you

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Speaker 1: and I have history in the recent in recent years

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Speaker 1: working on a project together. We'll get into that. I

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Speaker 1: think that the first time you and I met was

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Speaker 1: at thirty Rock, and I think we were both in

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Speaker 1: the green room about to do a hit on either

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Speaker 1: an NBC or MSNBC. Is that close?

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Speaker 3: I think that's right. Would would this have been twenty

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Speaker 3: eleven or twelve?

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Speaker 1: Probably? Yes, probably around that time. So I came out

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Speaker 1: of the closet in twenty ten, And of course we'll

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Speaker 1: get to all of that, yep. But I you know,

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Speaker 1: in between twenty ten and twenty fifteen, I was there

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Speaker 1: a lot, doing a lot of stuff, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's when we met. And I feel like, too,

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Speaker 1: you it was the two of us in a green room,

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Speaker 1: and I want to say it was Mira Sorvino in

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Speaker 1: there with her Dad. Yes, Oh my god, yes, I

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Speaker 1: just that just came to me. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: feel like they had a project and they were talking

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Speaker 1: about it and it was just us and then in

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Speaker 1: walks Paul and Mira and I think you and I

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Speaker 1: both looked at one another like, whoa.

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Speaker 3: Shelley, You're so right.

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Speaker 2: And I would never have remembered that part of it,

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Speaker 2: But now that you say that, oh, it's vivid, right,

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Speaker 2: memory is vivid. Yeah, Oh, I remember even which green

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Speaker 2: room we were in, because okay, so here's the I

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Speaker 2: was at MSNBC.

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Speaker 3: I had a show at MSNBC.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't in the green room a lot because I

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Speaker 2: had an office there, but I was in the green

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Speaker 2: room this day because I was going on a show

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Speaker 2: I didn't normally go on. And I don't remember if

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Speaker 2: we were going on Morning Joe or we were going

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Speaker 2: on with like Chris Jansen or Thomas Roberts. But it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a show I was doing. All the time.

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Speaker 1: You were guesting. You were guesting on someone else's show

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Speaker 1: and you had a show there at the same time. Correct, Yes,

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Speaker 1: this all makes sense. And you know what.

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Speaker 3: All makes sense.

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Speaker 1: This is the new truth. We're allowed to make things up. Now,

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Speaker 1: even if this isn't true.

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Speaker 3: We'll just say it is. That's right, let's say that's

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Speaker 3: that's what it was. No, but I feel really good

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Speaker 3: about it. Yeah, I feel like that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: It Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you remembered that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and as you were, I I may see as

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Speaker 1: you were kind of giving a little intro to me

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Speaker 1: at the top, but asking yourself out loud, those questions

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Speaker 1: you've asked yourself. I realized that those are all of

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Speaker 1: the question. You've nailed it. That is the full complement

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Speaker 1: of questions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, done deal, Yes, well, and I can't We're going

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Speaker 2: to get to that part. But like, I know what

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Speaker 2: questions you're asking yourself because I'm here. Yeah, and I've

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Speaker 2: been here, so yeah, we just I feel like we

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Speaker 2: have a lot in common. We're gonna get to it,

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Speaker 2: and I want to talk about so many things. But first,

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Speaker 2: can I just get your take on a couple country

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Speaker 2: music adjacent news items.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm here for it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, this will be quick, but like you're here,

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Speaker 2: I need your take, Keith Urban, Nicole Kidman, your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, I have met Nicole on a couple of occasions, quickly,

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Speaker 1: briefly in industry circles I have. I would consider Keith

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Speaker 1: a friend since the mid nineties. Yes, I think divorces

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Speaker 1: hard and breakups are hard, and they're hard whether you're

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Speaker 1: a publicly known person or not. But the lens of

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Speaker 1: fame and kids an intersection of all of that, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's hard. I just hope we can stay out

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Speaker 1: of it and let them have their Yeah, let them

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Speaker 1: have their marital breakdown. There's probably a lot going on

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Speaker 1: that we don't know, nor should we, nor is it

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Speaker 1: any of our business. But nineteen years married.

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Speaker 3: That's a giant success, agreeing to kids.

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Speaker 2: So I here's what's making me mad about this story.

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Speaker 3: People are.

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Speaker 2: Imposing an explanation onto this, like he was threatened by

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Speaker 2: her success.

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Speaker 3: That's what's let oh.

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Speaker 2: Really well, like I said, I don't know, we don't know, yeah, anything. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And they're pointing to the fact that he, in past

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Speaker 2: interviews gets very reticent about talking about her, like this

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Speaker 2: is somehow proof.

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Speaker 1: That he's jealous of her.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she said, honey, don't talk about me because I

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Speaker 2: want these interviews to be about you. And when they

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Speaker 2: ask me about you just shut it down. I don't

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Speaker 2: need to be in your headline.

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Speaker 3: Maybe this was her.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like we psychologize these celebrities and it's

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Speaker 2: like we're inventing shit out of thin air.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I wish we'd stop doing that. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I look I like a soap operas next as much

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Speaker 1: as the next person. And same. You know, I remember

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Speaker 1: being a kid, and you know, there weren't that many

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Speaker 1: tabloids at the time, but I remember being interested in

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Speaker 1: you know, Glenn Campbell and Tanya Tucker. You know, breakups, breakdowns, breakthroughs, marriages, divorces,

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Speaker 1: kids out of wedlow, It's all happened. This has been

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Speaker 1: around forever. And you know, here's what I know. I

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Speaker 1: love Keith urban To in his just to his core,

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Speaker 1: in my core. And I assume that the woman he

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Speaker 1: made a life with for nineteen years and built a

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Speaker 1: family with is of his ilk.

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Speaker 3: And something worked.

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Speaker 1: Something worked, Yeah, something worked, And it's I think of

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Speaker 1: the what is that? What is that it's a poem about?

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Speaker 1: Instead of talking about how we're falling, let's think about

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Speaker 1: how long we were in the air.

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Speaker 3: Nice?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, Okay, have you heard about the new Beyonce rule.

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Speaker 1: I am aware at a high level of the new

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Speaker 1: Beyonce rule.

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Speaker 2: Okay, to explain for people, Beyonce wins Best Country Album

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Speaker 2: at the Grammys in February. It was a little controversial

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Speaker 2: inside country music circles. Four months later, the Recording Academy,

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Speaker 2: the Grammys breaks up the country category into two Best

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Speaker 2: Contemporary Country, Best Traditional Country. The Academy says it will

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Speaker 2: award modern country while still recognizing subgenres like Americana.

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Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Yeah, I don't love it. I listened to

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Speaker 1: the Beyonce record and to end, I put good headphones on,

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Speaker 1: you know, laid on the floor and gave it the

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Speaker 1: listen it deserves. It's as country a record as anything

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Speaker 1: else that is coming out of Nashville or has come

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Speaker 1: out of Nashville for decades. I would ask us to

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Speaker 1: be self reflective as an industry and ask ourselves what's different?

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Speaker 1: What's different about Beyonce? Why did that really? Bryal us up?

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Speaker 3: A good question? Good question.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think back to when Shanaia Twain, you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously she had a couple of albums before she and

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Speaker 1: Mutt Lange teamed up and made you know, genre busting,

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Speaker 1: genre defining records, and people had the same complaints about, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's not country enough, and that said, you know, we

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Speaker 1: let her in, I mean, and she was a product

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Speaker 1: of Music Row by the way, she'd had a couple

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Speaker 1: of records out, you know, our Mercury records before those

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Speaker 1: records exploded. All of this is to say that Nashville

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Speaker 1: doesn't really do a great job. They're not ultra comfortable

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Speaker 1: with someone coming in that they didn't that didn't kiss

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Speaker 1: the ring, that they didn't raise it, that they didn't manufacture,

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Speaker 1: that they can't take credit for. And still, what is

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Speaker 1: different about Beyonce. She's a woman of color. This is

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Speaker 1: a black woman who owns all of her power and

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Speaker 1: brings it to bear in every space that she embodies.

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Speaker 1: And that is a country record by every metric that

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Speaker 1: we are looking at in contemporary country music today.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you heard it here.

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Speaker 1: And then for the for the new genre of the

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Speaker 1: classic the traditional country record, my vote, full stop goes

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Speaker 1: for Sonny Sweeney, her new record that let's just call it,

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Speaker 1: let's just we have a winner. Let's just say that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we'll check back.

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Speaker 1: That's who I want.

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Speaker 2: That's why I went to okay Bad Bunny at the

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Speaker 2: super Bowl. A lot of country artists feel as though

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Speaker 2: country music keeps breaking all these records and then the

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Speaker 2: super Bowl keeps ignoring it.

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Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Yeah, well, we've had country artists at the

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Speaker 1: super Bowl before it's happened. Bad Bunny is the right choice.

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Speaker 1: I think his downloads have surpassed even Tailor's. Bad Bunny

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Speaker 1: is arguably the biggest artist right now in the world,

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Speaker 1: and given that the NFL is and has been aiming

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Speaker 1: toward a more global audience, it's the right choice. I

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Speaker 1: know that everyone wants to think it's a political play,

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Speaker 1: and maybe there's a tinge of that, but I don't

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Speaker 1: know that the wider, the big global NFL audience wants

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Speaker 1: something different country music in some incredible stars that are

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Speaker 1: filling stadiums, right yeah, Brian, Yeah, Morgan Wallin obviously Kenny

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Speaker 1: Chesney Can continues to do it. But I think the

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Speaker 1: Bad Bunny appointment it meets the moment of where we are.

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Speaker 1: And I'm an I'm a huge NFL fan, and I

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Speaker 1: know you are as well. I'm I'm here for it

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Speaker 1: and have I ever bought a Bad Bad Bunny record?

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Speaker 1: I have not but I went the other day and listen,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I know that, I know that,

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Speaker 1: I know that. I can totally see why the NFL

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Speaker 1: made this time.

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Speaker 2: I saw Bobby Bones, who's a friend I know you

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Speaker 2: know him too. He was saying, listen, Bad Buddies not

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Speaker 2: for me. That's okay, Like not.

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Speaker 3: Everyone has not everyone has to be for everyone. What Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I like Bad Buddy.

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Speaker 2: It's fun, it's fun music. He's not my favorite, but

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Speaker 2: it's not for me.

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Speaker 3: That's okay. Is that okay?

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Speaker 1: And when you think about yeah again, I've it's not

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to a Bad Bunny concertor yeah, but

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Speaker 1: that's okay. But when I see what the NFL kind

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Speaker 1: of the pre show, the first half, how someone has

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Speaker 1: to be able to hold up that energy and that

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Speaker 1: viewership in that halftime show, which is just iconic, we

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Speaker 1: it makes sense. It makes so much sense. Okay, good job, that.

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Speaker 3: Was the news.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Shelly Wright for your analysis.

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Speaker 1: Glad Toad, let's.

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Speaker 2: Get to you, and let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 2: I always like to ask, what kind of kid were you?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great question. I was Okay, I was

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Speaker 1: a total weirdo. Still am a card carrying weirdo too.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I'm a nerd. I never got in trouble.

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Speaker 1: I was a brown noser. I sat on the front

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Speaker 1: row of class, I raised my hand, I always had

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Speaker 1: my homework done. Now part of this should be seen

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Speaker 1: through the lens of hypervigilance as a closeted queer. Yes,

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Speaker 1: in a town in Kansas where there were churches on

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Speaker 1: nearly every corner.

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Speaker 3: So were you can?

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Speaker 2: I just ask, yeah, partly because that were you a

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Speaker 2: pleaser if I please people?

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Speaker 1: Yes? And I had to be. And I was a

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Speaker 1: person of faith at a very young age, a genuine

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Speaker 1: My faith practice is really important to me, and it

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Speaker 1: always has been. I knew that I was a person

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Speaker 1: of faith before I knew I was gay. So it's

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Speaker 1: not that I ran toward religion to fix me. And

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Speaker 1: I put that in air quotes because I thought I

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Speaker 1: was spiritually you know, damned once I realized I was gay.

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Speaker 1: But so many kind of things coexisted in me that

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Speaker 1: I think are interesting in that people pleasers typically follow

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Speaker 1: a path and a trajectory that everyone else does. So

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Speaker 1: I followed the path of get give straight. A student

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Speaker 1: homecoming queen captain of my basketball team, president of the

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Speaker 1: band First Trumpet, dating boys, dating boys, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can get into that fish. I did. I wasn't that

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Speaker 1: committed to it for obvious reasons. But so I would

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Speaker 1: take that path, but then I would diverge wildly from

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Speaker 1: the path, which got me in some trouble with my

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Speaker 1: peer group, caused some bullying. You know, I was the

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Speaker 1: recipient of some bullying. And then I also had this

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Speaker 1: crazy notion that I was going to go to Nashville

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Speaker 1: and become a country music singer and sing on the

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Speaker 1: radio and sing on the opry. So I think, through

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Speaker 1: a people pleasing lens, that was pretty wild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And I know you realized you were gay young.

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Speaker 2: After you realized you were a spiritual person. Love, faith

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Speaker 2: in religion was important, but you knew you couldn't live openly.

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Speaker 2: I think we can all imagine why the pressures, but

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Speaker 2: I just want to hear in your words, why did

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Speaker 2: you feel like you couldn't live openly? Identify those points

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Speaker 2: of resistance for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So when I was I was baptized when I

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Speaker 1: was six in the Christian Church, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't even a Catholic church in my town. It

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Speaker 1: was Methodists, Community Baptist, Baptist, all these kind of versions

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Speaker 1: of that. No one looked different in my town. Everyone

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Speaker 1: was white. We did have a couple of Catholics. No

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Speaker 1: Jews in my town, certainly no gay people, wink wink.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right. And when I was nine, I realized, and

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Speaker 1: I'll keep this brief, I was in third grade and

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Speaker 1: I had a beautiful teacher named Miss Smiley, Laura Smiley.

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Speaker 1: She was young, big, bright smile, you know, perfectly named.

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Speaker 1: Over the weekends, I just couldn't wait to get back

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Speaker 1: to school on Monday, and I just thought, I just wondered,

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Speaker 1: does she miss us? Does she miss the students like

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Speaker 1: we miss her? And I began to have kind of

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Speaker 1: little conversations with my friends, and I realized no one

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Speaker 1: was dying to get back to school on Monday like

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Speaker 1: I was. And then to see her. And then I realized,

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Speaker 1: uh oh, and why was this troubling that I had

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Speaker 1: a crush on my third grade teacher? Because everything being

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Speaker 1: talked about in my church, in my community, on the news,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I grew up in a farm community,

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Speaker 1: a ton of a thousand people. Teachers told gay jokes,

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Speaker 1: in my school, the word faggot was used by a

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Speaker 1: couple of teachers and Jim coaches, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: was widely used in the hallway, as no one got

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Speaker 1: in trouble for saying anything like that. There was a

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Speaker 1: game called smear the queer with the football, which meant

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Speaker 1: it's like a hot potato, you throw the foot. If

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Speaker 1: you can't get rid of it, everybody has license to

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Speaker 1: beat the crap out of you. And the preacher in

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Speaker 1: my preacher, Warren Skiles, talked about evil people and he

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Speaker 1: was a fantastic influence on my life. And he knew

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Speaker 1: not what he was doing. He would use the words

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Speaker 1: in his sermons drunkard, thief, adulterer, murderer, homosexual, and so

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Speaker 1: this is why I knew I could never ever share

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Speaker 1: my secret or be that. And then of course, when

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Speaker 1: I was nine, you know, realizing I was gay, I

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Speaker 1: had for five years had this dream of making it

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Speaker 1: to Nashville. So this wasn't And you know, people have

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Speaker 1: asked me, well, why did you decide to go into

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Speaker 1: country music once you realized you were gay? I'm like

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Speaker 1: being a country music artist. That dream predated my understanding

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Speaker 1: who I was as.

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Speaker 2: A and maybe it wasn't even a decision, it was

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Speaker 2: a calling, like how do you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, when I was obsessed with Loretta Lynn buck Owens,

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Speaker 1: Conway Twitty, Connie Smith, there was just there was there

346
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Speaker 1: was no options. So so and then I knew that

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Speaker 1: I was going into an industry in which no one

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Speaker 1: had ever identified being gay. And when I got to

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Speaker 1: Nashville in nineteen eighty nine, I just doubled down on

350
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Speaker 1: my yea, you know that, Well, it's sure not going

351
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Speaker 1: to be me. I'm not going to be the first

352
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Speaker 1: one out of the closet and lo and behold you know,

353
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Speaker 1: long story short. Twenty years later it was I you were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you're young, you have a vision of

355
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Speaker 2: your future in no nowhere on the horizon is a

356
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Speaker 2: place where you can be yourself. That just doesn't it's

357
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Speaker 2: not it's not happening. And when you feel that, when

358
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Speaker 2: you feel shame as a child, when you have to

359
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Speaker 2: hide something that fundamental as a child, that's a trauma.

360
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Speaker 2: And as you know, traumas imprint on us, they show

361
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Speaker 2: up later. So how did your trauma from that show

362
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Speaker 2: up later in life?

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Speaker 1: Ooh, it's a really good question. I've been asked a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions, and I don't think anyone's asked me that.

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Speaker 3: That's my favorite thing to hear.

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Speaker 1: You're good at your work, guessie.

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Speaker 3: Thanks.

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Speaker 1: Let me just quickly just talk about the when I

369
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Speaker 1: was younger and thinking that's not a life I could ever,

370
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Speaker 1: I can't ever be myself as a gay person. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The notion of that seems much more reasonable when you're nine, eleven, sixteen, nineteen,

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Speaker 1: because one doesn't at those ages really realize what weight

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Speaker 1: companionship and love have. Yeah, so when you're ten, you

374
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Speaker 1: can say, oh, I'll just never be that. I'll just

375
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Speaker 1: focus on the music. It's an unfair contract to sign

376
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Speaker 1: at that time. But to answer your question, how did

377
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Speaker 1: those traumas show up in my life later? I think

378
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Speaker 1: I developed such a muscle memory around perfection and a

379
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Speaker 1: skill set that I didn't and I wrote about this

380
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Speaker 1: in my book, a skill set that I didn't love,

381
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Speaker 1: which was having the ability to compartmentalize and in my

382
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Speaker 1: heart and who I am naturally is a really authentic, open,

383
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Speaker 1: honest person. But the hardest thing for me to write

384
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Speaker 1: in my book was I became a skilled liar and

385
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Speaker 1: coming out I had to really address that and own

386
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Speaker 1: that and hope that people instead of saying, see, I

387
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: knew it, You're a liar. You've been true, You've been

388
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Speaker 1: tricking us the whole time. I had to trust that

389
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Speaker 1: that the majority of people would say, tell me why

390
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Speaker 1: you felt like you had to be a liar? Yeah,

391
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Speaker 1: That's what I needed people to get to, and I

392
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Speaker 1: just had to trust that they would.

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Speaker 2: Your mom, how did your experience as a kid impact

394
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: the way you are seeing your children now? I came

395
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: across something you said were you talked about having sympathy

396
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Speaker 2: for the little you, and that resonates so much with

397
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Speaker 2: me because you know, in therapy we do that, we

398
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 2: try to show up for the little us as the

399
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: grown up us because maybe we felt as kids we

400
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: weren't being shown up for, and so seeing little us

401
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 2: now is just as important, It's crucial. So how are

402
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 2: you seeing your kids in a way that maybe you

403
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: wanted to be seen?

404
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? So, my relationship with my mom and very different

405
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Speaker 1: than my reallyationship with my dad. Although they kind of

406
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 1: were one unit when I was a kid, they divorced

407
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: when I was twenty seven, and then kind of a

408
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: wild convergent convergence of relationships there. But my mom was

409
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: my biggest fan. As anything I did, she just said,

410
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: you can be the best at it. She just had

411
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: this real belief in my ability to excel. And she

412
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Speaker 1: also loved country music, so there was a particular delight

413
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: that she found in that I was not only wanted

414
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Speaker 1: to be a songwriter artist, musician, but that I was

415
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Speaker 1: actually good at it.

416
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that you could, which is always so.

417
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Speaker 1: Wild to me because I see so many people who

418
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: moved to Nashville and they want to do it, and

419
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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's probably not going to happen. I just

420
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: what a thrill that I actually had enough talent to

421
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Speaker 1: do it, to you know, cut and paste this thing

422
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: together and make it fly. My mother was complicated in

423
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Speaker 1: that she also was a polio survivor and that was traumatic.

424
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Speaker 1: So I think that there was unaddressed trauma for her,

425
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Speaker 1: and she gifted the trauma down to me. And my

426
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: siblings were all very hypervigilant in a number of ways,

427
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: and we get that from our mom that said, I'm

428
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Speaker 1: so glad to have that hypervigilance, that do sweat the

429
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: small stuff mentality, because I've built a career out of

430
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: sweating the small stuff. So cut to how do I

431
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: show up differently for my children? So I've got identical

432
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: twin boys, they're twelve, and my wife and I, you know,

433
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: we have a shared parenting style and then a different

434
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: parenting style in some ways no surprise to anyone. Both

435
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: of them want to be YouTubers.

436
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Speaker 3: Yes, that's all the kids want to be, Sitta.

437
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: That's all they want to be. And so my wife

438
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 1: will at times say, you know that you're not going

439
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: to be a YouTuber, like that's not a real and

440
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: I am very mindful to tell them I think you

441
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: can do it. I think you can do it. I

442
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: believe in you, and here are the things it takes

443
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: to be really great at something. And they're looking at,

444
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, their YouTube channel and they have thirty five

445
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: followers and they're like, Mama, how do you have so

446
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: many followers? Yeah, I'm like, well, let me let me

447
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: talk you through what that looks like. And so I

448
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: I want my kids when I'm dead and gone and

449
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: while I'm here, frankly, I want them to never to

450
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: feel as if there was never a deficit in my

451
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: belief of their dreams. Because this is the kid me

452
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: who when she was four told the entire town of Wellsville, Kansas,

453
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: I'm to be on the Grand Ole Opry and I'm

454
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: going to sing on the radio and make records, and

455
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: I ktch you not si yea. My whole town said yeah,

456
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: let's go.

457
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

458
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: That was so big to me. And the older I get,

459
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: the more I realize how saying one's dreams out loud

460
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: as a kid and having people say, Okay, yeah, get

461
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: you know, get your work done, get good grades, stay

462
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: out of jail, do what you know. Yeah, follow the rules,

463
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: and you can do whatever you want. And so that

464
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: is my kind of a key tenant of my being

465
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: so exestile.

466
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, because, yeah, I need

467
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: to think about this more because my son, who's tenant, wants.

468
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: To be a YouTuber and I'm I'm your wife. I'm like, no,

469
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: you're not. That's not real. They're not.

470
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: But I really like what you said. I really like

471
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: shifting my perspective on that a little bit. I'm going

472
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: to think on that and maybe show up for him

473
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: a little differently. But I'm so scared of the YouTube stuff.

474
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 3: I'm scared of it.

475
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: I'm scared of it. I hate the screen, like This

476
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: is a major point of it's poison, you know. And

477
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: what I try to tell the boys is if your

478
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: frontal lobe is still prefrontal cortex is still in development

479
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: and won't be until it's twenty five, and you're having

480
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: this struggle, look at adults around you. Look on the train.

481
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: Everyone has their face in a screen. If it's hard

482
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: for adults, it's going to be doubly If not triple

483
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: or whatever multiple you want to put on, it very

484
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: hard for you. And and we can't really get them

485
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: off of screens because they learn on screens.

486
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: Yes, he just brought home a computer from class, like

487
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: he's going to be on screens. It's also the video

488
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: games and stuff. I really resisted for a long time

489
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: because I'm so scared of it, But it got to

490
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: a point where, like the video game We're thing was

491
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: a social access point for him. If he didn't have

492
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: that social access point to talk to his friends about

493
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: Super Mario Brothers and Pokemon and Minecraft, he would have

494
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: had no friends because he wasn't sporty. He's a bit

495
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: nerdy in the best way. He's on the spectrum. He's

496
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: socially a little developmentally, a little behind, and the kids

497
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: that are just like him are talking about video games,

498
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: and if I refused, he would.

499
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 3: Have had all like no social interactions.

500
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: So for me it became an opportunity. And so once

501
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: I opened to that door, you know, now I have

502
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: to I we're here, you can't close it. Yeah, and

503
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: so yeah, but I'm just very scared of the online stuff,

504
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: especially with boys.

505
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: I'm very scared of it. But I have to get

506
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: to a better place. And I'm really going to think

507
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: about what you said.

508
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: Perhaps we can rather than our seeing the conversations we

509
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: need to have with our kids, especially boys of the

510
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: this age, instead of the conversations we need to be

511
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: having with them, how about we add something to that,

512
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: and that is the conversations we need to be having

513
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: with their friends' parents, because they these boys want to

514
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: follow the pack of well, you know, Oscars on it

515
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: and Arthur's on it, and you know, and and I

516
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: get that.

517
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: But perhaps we can have a united front together.

518
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: And there's a not there's an organization in New Zealand

519
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: I've done some work with in my last role. Anyway,

520
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: long story short, they are mobilizing parents with one another

521
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: as cohorts to help kind of change the watermark on

522
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: screens and games, and I think I think there's not

523
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: a there's not a magic pill on this, but I

524
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: think it's going to be several things working in concert,

525
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: and I think conversations with parents great.

526
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been thinking about this in preparation for my

527
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: interview with you.

528
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 3: I can't decide if the fact.

529
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: That you become a giant country music star, top new

530
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: female vocalist at the ninety five CMS, et cetera, while

531
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: you're struggling with your sexuality, if that put you in

532
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: the worst possible place at the worst possible time or

533
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: the best right Because I'm sure it made you incredibly

534
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: strong and resilient, but I know it was tough. I'm

535
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: wondering how you'd answer that question.

536
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: If I told you that the thing I was convinced

537
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: for decades would be the thing that would end me

538
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: was actually my superpower. Yes, that would be effect a truth.

539
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: Say more.

540
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: Say more the effort and the skill set and the

541
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: energy and the strategy and the discipline that I had

542
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: to deploy to not only make it to Nashville, learn

543
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: the industry, get better as a songwriter, get signed, have

544
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: two failed records, get myself out of that major deal

545
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: and onto Universal Records. I was able to pull all

546
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: of that out because of my strategy and focus muscle.

547
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: And I have that strategy and focused muscle because I

548
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: had to hide who I was my whole life. You

549
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: get really good at stuff. And here's the kind of

550
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: the big reveal is that in twenty twenty, I was

551
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: on tour like every touring musician. I had to go

552
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: home like everybody, and it was a really uncertain time

553
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: and a really scary time for a lot of artists,

554
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: not just for their income but mental health wise, Like

555
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: this was a new normal. We'd no one had ever

556
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: done this before. Guess what I got to do. I

557
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: got to pivot into what was already for the past

558
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: ten years my side hustle, which is corporate consulting with

559
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: corporates around leadership, storytelling, D and I D E and

560
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: I D EIB whatever you call it. Were it not

561
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: for being a closeted country music singer who decided in

562
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, I'm going to come out. Not

563
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: only am I going to come out, I'm going to

564
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: come out, well, I'm going to come out and tell

565
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: the whole truth and nothing but the truth and then

566
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: storytelling what I do very naturally. Just I had this

567
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: side hustle, and so I went from literally my tour

568
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: being canceled and picking right up and growing my client base.

569
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: What in the world?

570
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: What? Yeah? Yeah, I love that. But I love that.

571
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: That's why.

572
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: There's so many ways to tell a story. And one

573
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: of the stories is this was a really tough time

574
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: for you. You went into a space that was not

575
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: welcoming at a time where you needed to be welcomed.

576
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: But the other version is the story you just told.

577
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: And I knew there was going to be another version.

578
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: That's why s Sie. I love the tenant that my

579
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: parents taught me when I was a kid was plan

580
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: your work and work your plan. Now the nuance of

581
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: the work your plan piece. It doesn't it doesn't mean

582
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: plan A is an effort.

583
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

584
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: I In fact, I love it when plan A begins

585
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: to show its cracks. Yeah, because then I know that

586
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: the iteration process, much like in songwriting, the iteration, the editing,

587
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: the poking at it, that's putting it in the center,

588
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: walking around it and evolving it. That's how you get

589
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,479
Speaker 1: a good song. That's how you get a stronger, better

590
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: keynote address I'll bet you were better at this podcast

591
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: than you were on episode one, right, So I love

592
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: the editing process, and the older I get, the more

593
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: I just want to shout from the mountaintop, and I

594
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: do shout from the mountaintops. What's behind that door? Do

595
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: as much work as you can plan for to knock

596
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: on that door, But there is always something better than

597
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: you can imagine that's right on the other side of the.

598
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 3: Door, and you can't imagine it, and you can't carry

599
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: for people.

600
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: I'm, you know, a type A. I also grew up

601
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: kind of a pleaser, a planner. I grew up very

602
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: anxious at a great childhood. I always have to say that,

603
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: because you know, I don't want it to sound like

604
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: I didn't, but I moved a lot and there was

605
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: a lot of expectation I put on myself.

606
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 3: And so when.

607
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: I am contemplating a door, like I said, and I

608
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: don't know what's on the other side, that's very scary

609
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 2: for me.

610
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 3: It makes me not want to open it.

611
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I can't predict and plan for what the

612
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: next thing is going to be, that makes me not

613
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: want to even approach it. And that's like I said

614
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: at the beginning. I want to be more like you

615
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: and just fly fling the door open.

616
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: Let me just let me offer this. I don't know

617
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: that I've ever flung a door open. I think that

618
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: is an un fair way to characterize my life. The

619
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: chapters of my life.

620
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: The bravery, the bravery I see is you flinging the

621
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: door open, and you're saying it's more complicated than that.

622
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: It's I decided to come out in two thousand and six,

623
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: the morning after I didn't end my life. I actually

624
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: came out four years later. Now what did I do

625
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: in the middle of that? I did the work I

626
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: had planned my work work. My plan evolved the plan

627
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: A and to plan LMNOPQ. However, the letters go yeah,

628
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: forgotten the alphabet in this moment. But there was a

629
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of risk analysis, financial planning again yeah yeah, preparation,

630
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: getting the right team together. I'm I'm a I'm no

631
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: smarter than the next guy or gal, But I know this.

632
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: If it's a matter of strategy and poking at it, interrogation,

633
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: planning for mitigating risks, there is no one better at

634
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: that than me. Oh yeah, no one.

635
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 3: I feel the same, Like I'm really good at that too.

636
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the flinging of the door not the thing,

637
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: not the thing. It's like a show, right, it looks

638
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 1: like wow, you know Lebron James gets up there, Michael

639
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: Jordan goes, they slam duncan or yeah, what happens below

640
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: the iceberg? That is That's what I do really well.

641
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: So I don't think I've kicked any doors down or

642
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: flung any doors open. I am. Do you know my nickname?

643
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: Have I told you this before? My nickname amongst colleagues,

644
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: family friends, ban crew. My whole life is Captain's Safety.

645
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: Oh I love that, and I love.

646
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: That about me. Yes, I love that about me. I

647
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: always have a blanket and a gallon of water in

648
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: the back of my bar. Can I tell you how

649
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,479
Speaker 1: many times have been first unseen at an accident where

650
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: the blanket and the water was needed?

651
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 3: How many times?

652
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: So many people have recks in front of me? People

653
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: old people fall on the street in front of me. Yeah,

654
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 1: you know, so I am. I'm Captain Safety.

655
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: So you date a few big country stars, Vince Gill,

656
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: Brad Paisley, people we all know. Were those relationships pr

657
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: Were they you trying to convince yourself were they like,

658
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: what was your intention? With no no judgment, I'm just

659
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: wondering what was your intention in dating very big you know,

660
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: mail stars at that time in your life.

661
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, even if you asked this with

662
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: judge judgment, that's fine. Again, I yeah, I don't mind

663
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: being judged for it. In fact, when I came out,

664
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to come out and tell the whole truth

665
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: and nothing but the truth. And that did include my

666
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: having to speak to what were you thinking? What was that?

667
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: And it was there was a p R benefit that

668
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 1: I realized. Was it my motivator? No? Did I appreciate

669
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: the cover it gave me when I was in a

670
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,959
Speaker 1: relationship with a Brad or spending time with Vince Gill

671
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 1: or Brett farre or having a day with Troy Aikman,

672
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: all of I did. The benefit I did appreciate and acknowledge,

673
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: and the benefit was there not my motivator. So here's so,

674
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: I had a partner for twelve years during the zenith

675
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: of my career. We had a house, and we had

676
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: a Koi pond and pets, and we had a life. Yes,

677
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: we were deeply closeted. She didn't want to come out

678
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: I didn't want to come out.

679
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: It was is Julie. This is Julie, Julie in your book, okayeh, Julia.

680
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: Yep, And and it was just it was a non

681
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: starter to come out. That was just not ever going

682
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: to be something that happened. And in that twelve year period,

683
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: we had ups and downs and we had breaks. And

684
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: like many people who are like me gay, who know

685
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: that they can't exist as who they are, they make

686
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: decisions about partnering with people and it doesn't make that

687
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: other person a beard. Sometimes it is, but sometimes and

688
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 1: I the thousands of people I've heard from since I've

689
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: come out about this exact thing playing out. When one

690
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: knows that you can never be who you are in

691
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: terms of your sexual orientation, you begin to think tactically

692
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: and you begin to think, well, I knew I could

693
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: never live as an openly gay country music artist, and

694
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go onto the dark web and

695
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: find someone to date. That just wasn't Yeah, that wasn't

696
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: something I was going to do. So I made decisions

697
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: about partnership companionship, and my thinking was, if I'm going

698
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: to have a partnership with someone, I'm going to pick

699
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 1: someone that I like and enjoy and that makes me laugh,

700
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: and that we write songs together and tour together and

701
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: have shared values. You'll settle for that, Yeah, because millions

702
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: of people have done it because they want to have

703
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: a family, or they want to stay in the town

704
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: that they live in and not get kicked out of

705
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: their church or their neighborhood. So, you know, 's talk

706
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: about Brad. You know many people are like, did he know?

707
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: Was he?

708
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: Or No? He didn't know. He had no idea. And

709
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: I could not have picked a better, funnier, more talented,

710
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: more kind of a person with whom I shared values

711
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 1: and similarities. He understood my work, I understood his work.

712
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: He was as lovely a human being, like if I'm

713
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: going to I've always dated really amazing men. Because that's

714
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: how I was thinking about it. Did in my wildest dreams,

715
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: did I ever think that I would come out? No,

716
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: So I wanted to have a life. Would it? Was

717
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: it the life that exactly would have brought me the

718
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: most joy. Again, I was in my twenties and thirties

719
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 1: making these decisions, still thinking I could keep this thing hidden.

720
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: So while there was a public relations benefit to it,

721
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: there was also a long take a kind of whiplash

722
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: of I knew that when I ended my relationship with

723
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: Brad that was going to garner a lot of questions,

724
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: a lot of speculation, and it did. So, Yeah, did

725
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: I answer your questions.

726
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 3: Really really well?

727
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: And I think the way you talk about it is

728
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: really relatable, even.

729
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: For someone who doesn't understand that. I think that makes

730
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: sense to a lot of people.

731
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: I remember I dated a guy in college very briefly,

732
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: and I liked him a lot, and it didn't last

733
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: long at all. But a few years later he called

734
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: me out of the blue just to say, okay, obviously

735
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: it was gay then, and I thought it was really

736
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 2: nice because he didn't owe me that personal private.

737
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 3: Revelation.

738
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: I would have found out at school we were in college,

739
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: I would have heard about it.

740
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 3: But it just honored I wasn't using you. I didn't

741
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 3: want to be this.

742
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: I didn't know if I had to be this as well,

743
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: you know, and I really liked you, and you know,

744
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 2: him telling that to me was I don't know, it

745
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 2: was nice.

746
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: It was a nice thing.

747
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that is so nice. And so you know,

748
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: I dated a lot of men beyond famous people. Yeah,

749
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: and I had close friendships with men who did develop

750
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: feelings for me that I didn't reciprocate, and and that

751
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: there was a lot of There was a lot of

752
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: hurt that that I, as a closeted queer person left

753
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: in my wake. And that was another I talk about

754
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: this in my book as well, is that I caused

755
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 1: more harm to others trying to hide who I am

756
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: than then I than i'd ever have as an open link.

757
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: And then you would ever want to that. I wouldn't

758
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 3: want to do that.

759
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: Trying to talk your straight male friend who professes his

760
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 1: love for you into no, no, no, you don't really

761
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: love me. No I do I love I? Why can't

762
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: we be together? Like the And I have gone back

763
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: to a number of those men before I came out

764
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: and certainly posts coming out, and we've had that deep

765
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: conversation about you know, it wasn't you, It was me,

766
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: And if I were to want to ever love a man,

767
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: it would be you because you're amazing.

768
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 3: It's complicated, and think about this just quickly.

769
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: See when I've talked to so many men and women

770
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: over the years who have said, you know, my I

771
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: find I left my husband because I'm I'm gay, and

772
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: we've got kids together, and I just I feel so

773
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: guilty about it, or I left my wife. I'm gay,

774
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: have been you know that I've never and and number one,

775
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: I always say, okay, here, here's where you are. Good

776
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: for you. That to a lot of courage and the

777
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: gift that you've just given to the partner that you

778
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: ended the marriage with. They are now and it takes

779
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: a while to get there right. Heartbreak is real and

780
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: healing is real. But now that person that you finally

781
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: disclosed I'm gay, you deserve to be with someone who

782
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: is wired to love you completely. And that is such

783
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: a gift, painful as it is, rocky as the road

784
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: might be. I don't want to be married to someone

785
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: who isn't wired to love me completely.

786
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 3: Or forcing it or lying. Yeah, of course, I think

787
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: is a gift. That's a really good way of putting it.

788
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 1: Think of how many women are married to men who

789
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: haven't come out yet or don't want to acknowledge it.

790
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: Think of how un desirable she must feel. Think of

791
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: how many.

792
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 3: She's questioning herself, what does she do exactly? What's wrong

793
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: with me exactly?

794
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: That's a gift, A giant, It's a giant gift. I mean,

795
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: the truth really does open up a portal into so

796
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: many gifts like that. Yes, so.

797
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 2: I know you you lost some fans when you came out.

798
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 3: You would that happen today?

799
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: You know, if a big female artist came out today,

800
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: would the industry?

801
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 3: Would fans react? How would they react today?

802
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: It's a really good question. And I think had we

803
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: been talking about this five years ago, I would have

804
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: a different answer. I would say change is happening. There

805
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 1: will never have to be a first country music out

806
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: of the closet like that. Won't ever have to happen again. No,

807
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: And there have been many who have come out since

808
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: I came out in twenty ten that said a like

809
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: a current Are you talking about a current hit maker?

810
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: You don't know, big big star? How would that be

811
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: received today?

812
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: Let's just talk about the American electorate. Ould how would

813
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: you categorize the right in percentages versus the left? What

814
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: are those numbers? Tell me, se Cup what those number?

815
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 3: Fifty to fifty?

816
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: Fifty to fifty? Okay, take that metric and then distill

817
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: it down to a hyper historically hyper conservative industry that

818
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: has not been known as a bastion of diversity equity, inclusion,

819
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: and belonging, and so then do you think that fifty

820
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: to fifty would hold? No, Okay, so if the American

821
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: electorate at large is half and half, I would do

822
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: some retooling with the numbers. I wouldn't think it would

823
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: be half and half. I would think it would be.

824
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: Off the top of my head, I think there'd be

825
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: a seventy thirty, eighty twenty.

826
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, right right.

827
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: But you know that's just my my hypothesis. I'm a

828
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: pretty informed.

829
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 3: I think no one knows better than you.

830
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm Nashville. Here's the thing. Tricky

831
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: thing about Nashville. The industry itself is very in many

832
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: ways progressive and liberal. That said that, the product we

833
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: have always known we are packaging up and selling to

834
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: America is is to a different demographic. So, you know,

835
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: a lot of gay people in the industry in you know,

836
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: at the record labels, publicists, hair and makeup artists, managers.

837
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: But the product we are selling I think has been

838
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 1: pretty proven to be being sold to a conservative audience.

839
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: And I would say it's and I would say it's

840
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: be becoming more galvanized in that direction.

841
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, you're a boss. Now I want you

842
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: to talk about what you do in your corporate life and.

843
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: Whether it's as fulfilling as you hoped it would be.

844
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: Let me answer the latter, yes, yes, because it's actually

845
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: the same skill set I have used my entire life

846
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: and career. And remember, you know, as a country music singer.

847
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: Being in the music business, it was very heavy on

848
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: the business can I Actually I think I'm a pretty

849
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: good singer songwriter, But I think I tended to my

850
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 1: the business piece of it with a lot of focus

851
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: and strategy and discipline, which is why I think I

852
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 1: was lucky to have a career that spanned a few decades.

853
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: So and not all artists are that, not all artists

854
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,479
Speaker 1: want to be that, but that was kind of how

855
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: I think I was seen in the industry and which

856
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: delights me. And so the skill set is entirely transferable. Storytelling, leadership,

857
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: attention to detail, being on time, being a really good listener,

858
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: being a good communicator, distilling information. Reading a crowd is

859
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: the exact same thing as reading a boardroom, and so

860
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 1: I currently so when COVID hit, I took a new

861
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: client and then took a full time role as chief

862
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: Diversity officer with a global design build firm called Unispace

863
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: based out of Australia, did that for four years and

864
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: now I've pivoted over to an even bigger company, a

865
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: Denmark based company. Three hundred and three hundred and twenty

866
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: thousand people in the company, and we do facilities management.

867
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: The company is called ISS, not International Space Station, not ISIS.

868
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: I do not want right, but we dodies management. I

869
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: e would simply put, we do janitorial technical services in

870
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: corporate dining. Yes, and so it is it. It is

871
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: so delightful and so rewarding that I get to I

872
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: lead up our corporate social responsibility and new market growth.

873
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: So I get to play in the spaces that I

874
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: love to play in. And it's really wild. What is

875
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: behind that door? Just wild?

876
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that for you. Okay, this

877
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 3: is uh.

878
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: We're going to do a lightning round to end at

879
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 2: this incredible episode.

880
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: I hate that this is over. There's so much more

881
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: to talk about me too.

882
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 3: Literally could do this all day with you now.

883
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: If I get to come back to your podcast, Asie

884
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: is there is there are there pajamas like a two

885
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: time club. I know, Andy Astroy, our pal has like

886
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: our ropes, right, got a robe? I'm just remember on

887
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: did you ever do the Ellen Show?

888
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 3: I didn't know?

889
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so she gave out these cute boxer brief boxer briefs,

890
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: but I still have mine. I'm really great for sleeping.

891
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 1: I just want you to just kind of begetting merch. Yeah,

892
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: I just I'm gonna.

893
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 2: Know that I've got lots of show swag too. And

894
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: we've never had a returning guest. Oh, so we'll have

895
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 2: to think about that.

896
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 1: How many years has have you had the podcast?

897
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:27,720
Speaker 3: This is our second season.

898
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're gonna have some returners.

899
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 2: Probably we're going to okay for sure, and uh, you'd

900
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: be top of the list. Okay, So I will start

901
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: thinking about a gift for repeat repeat offenders.

902
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 3: That's okay, great.

903
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: I just want to advocate for soft PaJaMo bottoms. I

904
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: love it, okay, Okay.

905
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 3: Great, great, great, that's very on brand for me too,

906
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 3: as you can. I like being comfortable.

907
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: Love it, okay. Lightning Round.

908
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 2: Two thousand and two, you're named one of People Magazine's

909
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 2: fifty most beauty full people. Totally deserved, but any insight

910
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: as to how that list comes to be?

911
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 3: What do you know.

912
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's all just a machinery of publicity. I

913
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: had a great publicist, Leslie Kilner at the time, and

914
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: she worked with my She with MCA Records, and they

915
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: just I my star was rising. I'd had a couple

916
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: of big hits, and that's just kind of one of

917
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: the things that they do.

918
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 3: I mean, that's how people what people assume.

919
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, notice when you look at the list

920
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: when it comes out, it's no one who doesn't have

921
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: a project out. Yeah, right right, So, I mean, as

922
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: flattering at it as it is to be named, you know,

923
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: one of the fifty most beautiful people, it's just and

924
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: George Holtz took gorgeous photos. Yeah, and so, but it

925
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: was it's just it's a it's a pr piece, that's

926
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 1: that's all.

927
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: We both got married in Connecticut. Where did you tie

928
00:54:59,560 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: them up?

929
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: We got married, so I have two dates in my

930
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: wedding band. We planned our wedding for Litchfield, Connecticut in

931
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: twenty eleven because we were not allowed to get married

932
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: in New York City.

933
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 3: Yep.

934
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: But about a month or so before our actual wedding,

935
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: marriage equality became legal in New York City, so we

936
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: did that lottery system. Got chosen to get married in

937
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 1: Manhattan on the first day that marriage equality is legal,

938
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: So we have two dates in our wedding bands.

939
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 2: I love that new country or old country, and who's

940
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: the best from both?

941
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 3: Mmmm?

942
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:41,280
Speaker 1: Well, Lorette Alynne is my favorite of all time. Great

943
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: new country. Gosh. I love Maren Morris.

944
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's great.

945
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 1: I love Maren Morris. And you know, country country music

946
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: has had its way of kind of pushing her aside.

947
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: She's harry, outspoken. I think she has recently said she

948
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: might be a little by curious or yeah, right, her,

949
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: she her songwriting, her just everything. I just think she's fantastic.

950
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

951
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,919
Speaker 1: And then Alison Krause, I know she's not a new artist,

952
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: but you just she's still touring, she's still making new records.

953
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: And then also, let me just say Leanne Womack Womac

954
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: and Trisha Yearwood and ty Herndon. Okay, the three biggest places.

955
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just I can't stop. These are not

956
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: only are they all my pals, but they are I

957
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: go down to Leanne Womack hole sometimes I put on

958
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: the fool and then I'm done. I'm dying. Kids just

959
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: can't stop anyway. So a lot of good country music

960
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: out there, but in terms of traditional country Buck Owens,

961
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: Connie Smith, the Red Lynn.

962
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 3: Love It, that's it?

963
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 2: Okay, this is this is tough. What movie about country

964
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: music is the best? What's the best movie about country music?

965
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: Coal Miner's Daughter?

966
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: Okay, I I was thinking that's probably the correct answer.

967
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 2: I don't make cases for Walk the Line.

968
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: You could make a I didn't see Walk the Line.

969
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 3: That's fair. I could make a case for Rhinestone, which

970
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 3: I know is like pand but man is a kid?

971
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 3: I love that movie. I love that movie.

972
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, really good stuff.

973
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 3: But Cole Miner's Daughter is like the right answer.

974
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: I mean anything Dolly is in like great.

975
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 3: Automatically great.

976
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: And I could also, if I wanted to, I could

977
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: make a case that Steel Magnolia's had a little country

978
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: music to it, maybe because Dolly was in it. Sure. Yeah,

979
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 1: And but I'm gonna I'm gonna go final answer Coal

980
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: Miner's Daughter.

981
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 2: That is I think fairly uncontroversial, inarguable, that's great.

982
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 3: What's your favorite thing to do alone?

983
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: Walk me too?

984
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 3: What's your sleep routine? Do you have one?

985
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: Is it?

986
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 3: Is it complicated? Is it interesting.

987
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: I have struggled with sleep my entire life. I can

988
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: have been up for forty hours and still have a

989
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: hard time falling asleep. I think all the years of

990
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: touring overriding my circadian rhythm probably mess me. Yeah. I

991
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: put lotion on my feet every night before I go

992
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: to bed. I am the softest person in Panit Earth.

993
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: I move a lot. I have to get into a

994
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: lot of different positions. I have a leg pillow. I

995
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: have to sleep in a king bed with my wife.

996
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: I don't even understand how people sleep in full and

997
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:38,479
Speaker 1: queen beds. This morning, for instance, I've been awake since

998
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: three twenty eight. Oh that's bright so and I'm in menopause,

999
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: which tracks right. Ye, but sleep routine, I would say

1000
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: my go to Lauren is in bed a good twenty

1001
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: minutes before I am.

1002
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 3: Is the crucial? Is it crucial that she's in bed first?

1003
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 4: No?

1004
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: She It kind of kills me, kind of makes me

1005
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: mad sometimes because she doesn't have quite the reto I

1006
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 1: take off my makeup. She doesn't really wear makeup. She's

1007
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: just like lightning fast red meg. Yeah, and I resent

1008
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: it so I sometimes want I heard it like stay up,

1009
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: stay upright? Until I can get in bed too. But

1010
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: that's that's fun.

1011
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 3: I get it.

1012
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: I don't know why it makes me Some days it

1013
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: really makes me mad. But anyway, Yeah, the footloation that

1014
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: I have a very Pavlovian kind of Oh it's bedtime

1015
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: when I put on my foot loation.

1016
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 3: Great. Yeah, we got to find what works.

1017
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 2: As we mentioned, Beyonce crossed over to country last year

1018
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: with a lot of success post Malone, Daaries Rucker or

1019
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 2: others have done it. Who's an artist today you think

1020
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 2: could and should make the crossover?

1021
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: Well, I on my late walk last night, I was

1022
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: listening to Amy Poehlar's podcast Good Hang.

1023
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 3: Yes, I listened to it all the time.

1024
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: It's a giant fan. Well, she had Kristin Wig on. Yes,

1025
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: and at the end of the episode, you know, Kristen

1026
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: sings and Kristin is like throwing out she was. Amy's like,

1027
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: you should make a record, and Kristin is like, how

1028
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: do I? I would love to. I don't even know

1029
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: how to start. I have it in my head now

1030
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: because she has a lovely voice. She actually so I

1031
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: am a I'm I'm starting a movement and see you

1032
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: can join me. Yes, I think the next artist should

1033
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: be a crossover from Saturday Night Lives Kristin Wig to

1034
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: Americana artist Kristin Wig. I know that sounds like a joke,

1035
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: but I think she needs to make a record, and

1036
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: I have a sense she really wants to make a record.

1037
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 3: Let's speak it into existence.

1038
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: I mean I could produce a couple sides as you can.

1039
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my gosh, well I love that. Fantastic talked

1040
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 2: about country. But who's your favorite folk singer or folk band?

1041
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: Rodney Growell? Okay, okay, cool stop. He produced, not only

1042
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: and it's not because he produced a record of mine

1043
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: and we've written songs together. But oh gosh, I'm going

1044
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: to change my answer. Rodney and an equal measure, Roseanne Cash.

1045
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: Yes they used to be married, Yes they share children

1046
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: and grandchildren, and yes they are individual artists. But for

1047
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: my money today, if you're looking at an important body

1048
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: of work, yes, and two artists who reflect what is

1049
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 1: happening in the world exquisitely, expertly, provocatively, empathetically with a

1050
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: lot of intelligence. Yep, and that's what folk music is

1051
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: supposed to do. Yes, it's Rodney Crowell and Roseanne Cash.

1052
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 3: It's great. I love seven year ach. That's such a good.

1053
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: Song, so good. What a backbeat like?

1054
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 2: What a pucket?

1055
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: It's so good, so good, so good.

1056
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 3: This is the last question.

1057
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 2: It's the most important to me. I'm spiritual about it.

1058
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 2: It's culturally important to me. When is it iced coffee season?

1059
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: Not for me? Okay, I'm hot coffee all year long.

1060
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 3: Okay. But the important part is you like coffee?

1061
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love coffee. I have two cups, two

1062
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: giant cups, every morning, and I don't typically have coffee

1063
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: in the day after that. Now, if it's one hundred

1064
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: and ten degrees out, I will get a rando iced coffee.

1065
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 1: But I am kind of coffee. Yeah, hot coffee all

1066
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: year long, every day.

1067
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 3: It's not the correct answer, Shelley.

1068
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: But American America runs on Duncan, and so does SI cup.

1069
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 3: Well, I definitely do. But no, that's okay.

1070
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: The correct answer is year round. But we just appreciate

1071
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: hear it off the cup where coffee is very important

1072
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 2: to us. We just appreciate that you like coffee.

1073
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: I don't align with anyone who doesn't. In fact, I

1074
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 1: question their ethics perfect. I've got a lot of colleagues

1075
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: who say I don't drink coffee. I drink tea, and

1076
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 1: I'm like dilete, I don't understand you.

1077
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 3: We don't speak the same light.

1078
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: Yet She's sorry if we're not aligned, our values don't align.

1079
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 2: Lly right, this was incredible. I knew this was going

1080
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: to be great, but even better than I thought. And

1081
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad we did it. And I'm so

1082
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 2: glad you're in this world and sharing all of your

1083
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 2: talents in all of the places, because everyone deserves to

1084
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 2: be touched by you just a little bit in some way.

1085
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: Essie, thank you for that. I love you, I admire you,

1086
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: I see you. You are an expert thinker, and we

1087
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: have to be thinking expertly in these moments. And there

1088
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: are days when I feel like crawling under the blankets. Yeah,

1089
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: and I don't, because we just don't have that luxury.

1090
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 1: And it is voices like yours and brains like yours,

1091
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: and you're a mosaic and I love all of your

1092
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: pieces and you're really unique. And I don't know how

1093
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: many times you have gotten me through a day since

1094
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 1: you know, in the past, since I think COVID pre COVID.

1095
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: I just am delighted and honored to be on your

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01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: podcast and to be your friend.

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01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 3: Thank you, It's mutual. Thank you, Lessie.

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01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 2: Coming up next week on Off the Cup, I sit

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01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 2: down with the west Wings Janelle Maloney.

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01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 4: There's this crazy thing now where it feels like I'm

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01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 4: on a hit show that I did twenty five years ago.

1102
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 3: It's great.

1103
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 1: Everyone's so great.

1104
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 4: The fans are great, many many, many of them were

1105
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 4: not born when we started West Wing.

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01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as

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01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Network.

1108
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 3: If you want more, check out the other Reason.

1109
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 2: Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and Native Land pod.

1110
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 2: For Off the Cup, I'm your host, Si Cup. Editing

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01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 2: and sound design by Derek Clements. Our executive producers are

1112
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: me Si Coup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and

1113
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 2: review wherever you get your podcasts. Follow or subscribe for

1114
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 2: new episodes every Wednesday.

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01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 4: H