1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. We all have a 2 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: place of peace that we try to seek out at 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: the end of a long day of work. Maybe go 4 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: for a walk, take our dog with us, our best friend, 5 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: clear our mind. That place of safety, that place of 6 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: peace suddenly explodes and your life comes to the end. 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: Somebody's wielding a knife. They're hovering over you. They're burying 8 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: the knife into your body, over and over and over again, 9 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: and maybe the last thing you see is your dog 10 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: dying right before you. That's our case today. I'm Joseph 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this his body bags. Joining me today 12 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime 13 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what can you tell us 14 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: about this case? Catherine Katie Janis took her dog Bowie 15 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: for a walk in Atlanta's Piedmont Park now Piedmont Park. 16 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: To put this in terms where other people who are 17 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: not from this area can understand, would be like taking 18 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: a walk in Central Park in New York. Katie went 19 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: to see her girlfriend Emma, who was working down the 20 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: street as a bartender, and there were lots of people 21 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: out walking their own dogs. This is kind of a 22 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: typical scene for this midtown neighborhood. After leaving the bar, 23 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: Katie continued her walk. After work, Emma went home, but 24 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Katie wasn't there. She should have been. She should have 25 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: been back from the dog walk by then. So Emma 26 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: started calling Katie's cell phone but did not get an answer. 27 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Then she said text messages. They also went unanswered, and 28 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: that's when the worry said, and Emma went out to 29 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: look for Katie. Now, obviously, when you're walking a dog, 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: you can go anywhere, so Emma used to find my 31 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: iPhone app on Katie's phone. It showed Katie's phone was 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: about a hundred yards inside Piedmont Park, which was very 33 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: close to Katie and Emma's home. Emma thought maybe Katie 34 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: had dropped the phone, so she went into the park 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: to find it. But what she finds is a very 36 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: gruesome scene. The first thing she saw was Bowie. Bowie 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: was dead. That is the dog, and it's a pit bull. 38 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Not too far away, Emma found Katie's body and she 39 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: was dead. This is a very gruesome crime, Joe, that 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about. But let's talk about the beginning. 41 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: Bowie and Katie were not found next to each other, 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: but they were found, especially Bowie, at the entrance of 43 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 1: the park. There's so much to talk about here, Joe Back, 44 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: You're gonna tell you. As you know, i worked in 45 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: Atlanta for a long time and I'm very familiar with 46 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: Piedmont Park. This is a wide open space in the 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: area where this young woman was found with her pet 48 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: is immediately adjacent to one of the main entrances to 49 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: the park. It's this kind of big arched area that 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: you can walk through that you know, plainly states Piedmont Park. 51 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: It's it's an area where people actually go through on 52 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: a regular basis to take nice, long, pieceful walks through 53 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: this area. It's very bucolic, beautiful old trees and this 54 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Areas to picnic. And the fact that 55 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: her body, her body is actually found, I mean, let's 56 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: face it, in plane view, is quite striking to me, 57 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, as an investigator when you begin to look 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: at a scene like this and trust me, what this 59 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: young woman went through took time. So that tells us 60 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: something about the perpetrator. They essentially had no fear of 61 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: being found. Perhaps now you know, some people will say, well, 62 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: you know us under the cover of darkness. It is 63 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: under the cover of darkness, but it's not like we're 64 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: out in a cow pasture in rural Georgia somewhere. We're 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: in the most one of the most populated cities in 66 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: the South. People walk through this area, They make it 67 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: a point to walk through this area. It's very popular. 68 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: Who would do this in this specific environment? And you 69 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: begin to think about the nature of the scene where 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: she was found, where Bowie was found, and you have 71 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: to think this must have been an absolute blood bath 72 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: around this area because there were so many injuries to 73 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: both genesis body as well as her pet dog's body, 74 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: that blood would have been spilled on all of the surfaces. 75 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: And those are some of the things that you have 76 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: to think about as an investigator. It's an open area. 77 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: Who would have access to it, who would have knowledge 78 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: that she would be walking through the specific area at 79 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: this time of evening, and who would be bold enough, 80 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: bold enough to approach this young woman, who, as you mentioned, 81 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: is walking along with a pit bull at their side. 82 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, Jackie, but for me, you know, 83 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: a person that's got a pit bull in toe is 84 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: going to be probably the last one of the last 85 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: people I'm gonna want to try to target because they're 86 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: they're very affectionate when it comes to their master. They 87 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: are very protective when it comes to their master. So 88 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: that gives us an insight into who may have perpetrated this. 89 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: One of the things that struck me about this show. 90 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: You were talking about the big sign that goes into 91 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: Piedmont Park, and on the very bottom of the sign 92 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: there is a post that says pets must be on 93 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: a leash. So it's not like the pit bull got 94 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: away and ran after somebody. We know the dog was 95 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: on a leash to begin with, so we know that 96 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: the initial attack, the two of them were standing close together. Yeah, yeah, 97 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: they they absolutely would have men standing close together. She's 98 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: got the dog and toe or it's like my dogs. 99 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: My dogs have me and toe. You know many times 100 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: they're they're excited, they're ready to get out of the house, 101 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: they want to go for a walk. This is there, 102 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: it's their happy place. So you know that the dog 103 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: was right by her side as they're walking along. The 104 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: dog didn't get away, the dog didn't alert on something 105 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: I don't think, and you know, hopped off the leash 106 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: magically and ran off to chase somebody that was a threat. 107 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: That dog would have hung back, if you will, in 108 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: order to protect uh Miss Janis. So that that's something 109 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: that you know that comes to mind when you're beginning 110 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: to try to assess the scene out there in this 111 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: open area. You know, how and how did they get 112 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: this much distance between the dog and the dog's master? 113 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: How does that happen in this environment in the midst 114 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: of this attack, So, you know, it really gives you 115 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: pause to think. So, how does this happen? Joe? How 116 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: do you kill a dog? Now we do know there 117 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: was not a gun used in this attack. How do 118 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: you kill a pit bull with a knife or a 119 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: stabbing instrument of some kind. I mean, a pit bull 120 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: is extremely strong. A pit bull can be in protective mode, 121 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: and we're assuming that that's the case. A pit bull 122 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: can be vicious. So how was the perpetrator able to 123 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: do this? And do they do autopsies on dogs? You know? 124 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: An answer to your question, Jackie, Yeah, they do. They 125 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: do examinations on dogs. Now, in this particular case, from 126 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: my understanding, at least this point, Bowie's body did not 127 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: go did not go to the medical examiner's office for 128 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: instance there in the seat of Atlanta. The dog's body 129 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: was actually taken by the state Investigative Agency, the GBI, 130 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: and I would probably put money on it that they 131 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: would have a consulting veterinarian perhaps as well as a 132 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist out at the State Medical Examiner's lab to 133 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: take a look at the dog's injuries. And this is 134 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: important because you know, listen, the dog and Miss Channis 135 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: were not killed in two separate instances. This is all 136 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: one big event that's taking place. So from an evidentially standpoint, 137 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: one of the things that you're going to be looking 138 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: for when it comes to injuries, you want to be 139 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: able to try to compare the injuries that the dog 140 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: had to those that Miss Channis sustained is at the 141 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: same knife. That's the big question here, right, because we 142 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: do know that this is a sharp force injury death. 143 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: So you know some of the things that you're going 144 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: to be looking for on Bowie's body. For instance, is 145 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: this a single edged weapon or was it a double 146 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: edged weapon? Was it a particular type of knife that was, 147 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: you say, for instance, something that had a smooth edge 148 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to say, for instance, a serrated edge, which 149 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: sometimes you can have a combination of both, and it 150 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: leaves very very distinctive markings that can be examined after 151 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: the fact and possibly possibly compared, certainly at a microscopic level. 152 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: And there again you've got this connectivity in forensic science 153 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: that we are always looking for. And in case like this, 154 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: we have two victims and we would have to be 155 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: looking for DNA in the dog's mouth because most likely 156 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: the dog went on an attack, so that we'd be 157 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: looking for evidence from a dog bite. Oh, you're absolutely right. 158 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: One of the things that you would look for is 159 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: you'd mentioned DNA, Jackie. But let's keep in mind, how 160 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: does a dog attack. Well, when a dog attacks, they 161 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: bite and they rip. I want everybody to think about 162 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: just for a second, and this kind of a little 163 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: dwelling lesson here. People are familiar with the two pointy 164 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: teeth that you have on the top and on the bottom. 165 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: These are actually referred to as canine teeth. And the 166 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: way biting actually works is that these teeth are sunk 167 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: in to say, for instance, tissue. When a dog bites, 168 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't chew. The dog bites and it rips. So 169 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: you're not just going to be looking at a molecular 170 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: level for DNA that you know you might can swab 171 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: Bowie's mouth for, but you're also going to be looking 172 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: for things like tissue that might be caught up in 173 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: the teeth, or maybe even fabric that's caught up in 174 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: the teeth, and these things would actually be left behind. 175 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: Keep in mind, you know, I cannot imagine in my 176 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: wildest fantasies that the perpetrator would have taken time to 177 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: go back and clean the dog's mouth out. There would 178 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: be something there if in fact the dog did attack 179 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: this potential perpetrator. And again this begs the question, a 180 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: dog that is so prone to a defensive posture and 181 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: a protection posture like a pit bull, how do you 182 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: get so close to them that you can actually drive 183 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: a knife not just once, but multiple times into this 184 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: canine's body. And while this is going on, what's missus 185 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: janis doing. Is she already deceased or she's looking on 186 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: in horror Jackie. We've had a little discussion about the 187 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: nature of this environment in which this poor woman was 188 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: just brutally attacked along with her her pet dog, Bowie. 189 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: But we need to talk a little bit now. As 190 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: hard as it is. We've got to talk about these 191 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: injuries because it got to tell you, Jackie, in my career, 192 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: I've seen very few cases that even rival this one. 193 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: Katie Janis was found about a hundred yards inside the 194 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: park and about one hundred feet from Bowie, her dog. 195 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: The suggestion is that from where Bowie was found and 196 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: where Miss Janis was found, that likely Katie Janis tried 197 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: to run away and the killer caught up to her. 198 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: And we do know that she died from As we've 199 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: talked about sharp forced injuries, where were those injuries and 200 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: what kind of damage do they do? Jackie. I've actually 201 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: got the autopsy report here laying before me as you 202 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: and I are chatting right now, and I've spent the 203 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: past few days just going over it, and I gotta 204 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: tell you it's it's extensive. I mean absolutely a washwood 205 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: details about what she went through. And you know, we'll 206 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: try to chake this from the top and just walk 207 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: through this very carefully. She's got you know, like I 208 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: said previously, these are what are referred to as sharp 209 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: force injuries and as sharp force injuries. Just so our 210 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: audience understands, is it's anything that involves an edged weapon, 211 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: and that can either be a stab wound, and stabs, 212 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: keep in mind, are deeper than they are long. And 213 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: then you have in sized wounds which are just think 214 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: of miss slices and they're generally shallow. Okay, So with 215 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: missus Janis's body, we have to think about, well, first off, 216 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: how can somebody get so close to her in order 217 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: to facilitate this because there were so many injuries with 218 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: somebody laying in wait for her as she walked through 219 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: this gate or through this archway at at Piedmont Park, 220 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, kind of tracking our lawn, and there was 221 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: such there's such a level of trauma here that it's 222 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: hard to kind of take its measure. I think that 223 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that really stood out to me 224 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: was the fact that I don't normally use this term, 225 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: but there is an attempt, at least on my part, 226 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: at least from my perspective as a medical legal death investigator, 227 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: in an attempt to disfigure Miss Janis and kind of 228 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: let me lay lay the groundwork here. She's got a 229 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: lot of injuries over the totality of her torso, but 230 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: what's really striking is that her face and these are 231 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: all if you think about the head, we have the front, 232 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: which is referred to as the anterior. These are all 233 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: anterior injuries, and they start they start actually at the forehead. 234 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: There's even one I think that goes to the very 235 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: top of the head. They go all the way to 236 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: the top, slice through the forehead, across the surface of 237 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: both eyes, both eyelids are involved. Just you know, just 238 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: keep that in mind. The lips are actually in size, 239 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: remember we talked about it in size. When that's a cut, 240 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: that's a slice all the way down to the chin. 241 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: And there are multiple of these, so it's almost like 242 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: somebody is in a fevered state as they are attempting 243 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: to disfigure her, slice her up, and really make her 244 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: into this grotesque person in death. And you really have 245 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: to think about, you know, I think to a great degree, 246 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: what's going on inside the mind of a perpetrator in 247 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: a case like this. What you're describing to me, Joe, 248 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: sounds like a slasher film. Yeah, it kind of does, 249 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: doesn't Jackie. You know, you begin to think about it 250 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: and to give our audience a little understanding of this. 251 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: One of these injuries that really stood up to me, obviously, 252 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: the slicing of the eyes is significant, but or the eyelids. 253 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that really kind of stuck with 254 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: me is that the friendship pathologist talks about the slice 255 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: injury to the mouth goes down to the buckle MC. 256 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: So remember we've heard that term before. That's actually where 257 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: we go in harvest DNA out of the living with swabs. 258 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: That means that not only was the lip slice through, 259 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: it goes through what's referred to in forensic terms as 260 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: it's a full thickness wound, which means it goes all 261 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: the way down to underlying tissue. So you've sliced through 262 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: the lip at this point in time. That gives you 263 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: an idea as to what has happened. And one other 264 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: interesting component is that as you work your way down 265 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: from these injuries on the head, and I'm not suggesting 266 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: in any way that this is the order in which 267 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: they took place, but you know, if we're kind of 268 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: because there's so many injuries here, if we kind of 269 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: think about this anatomically, if you start with the head, 270 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: after we have examined all of these injuries on the head, 271 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: you have to begin to think about, well, the neck, 272 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, what's involved with the neck. Oh my gosh, 273 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: it's it's remarkable. If you think about the right side 274 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: of your neck, starting essentially directly below your right ear, 275 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: there is an incised injury that runs again, this is 276 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: what's referred to as full thickness injury. It goes down 277 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: through the SubQ fat, into the vessels and into the muscle. 278 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: Did you know that, miss Janice, both of her carroated arteries, 279 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: which are the main blood supply that goes from the 280 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: heart to the brain, both of those were sliced through. 281 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: That's that's set a depth of over an inch beneath 282 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: the surface of your neck tissue. You're getting down close 283 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: to probably two inches in thickness. You're going down there, 284 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: and not only that, but her trachea, her windpipe essentially 285 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: is what the doctor refers to as transsected. These vessels 286 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: are transsected, the windpipe is transected, going all the way 287 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: down to the cervical vertebrate. So those the supports, the 288 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: supports for the head. From a skeletal standpoint, that's becoming involved. 289 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: Now you've even on the backside of her neck, the 290 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: skeletal attachments, the muscle skeletal attachments back there Jackie. The 291 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: muscles were sliced as well. That's at like the C two, 292 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: C three level of the vertebrates, so those are really 293 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: high up in the neck and those have also been 294 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: cut away. And what's really ghastly about this is the 295 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: fact that in those muscles on the back of the 296 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: neck they found hemorrhage. And guess what, when you find hemorrhage, 297 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: that's an indication the heart still beating. We know that 298 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: she had over fifty wounds. This is taking some time 299 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: and some effort. Yeah, it does take time, Jackie, you know, 300 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: and you know, when I started reading this autopsy report, 301 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: I began to think about the years, all of those 302 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: years I spent working on the Morgans an autopsy assistant, 303 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: and let's face it, we're just going to be adults 304 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: here and talk about this. I spent that time protecting 305 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: human cadaver and it would of course, we were very 306 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: purposeful in what we would do. But you know, autopsies 307 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,239 Speaker 1: many times involved sharp instruments. That's what we do, and 308 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: it would take you two hours. Sometimes. We're talking about 309 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: a tremendous number of sharp force injuries that have taken 310 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: place in an open space out on the bare earth, 311 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: if you will, in plane view, Majie. Though it is 312 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: at night, it's still in plane view. These are taking 313 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: place out there. So was this a frenzied event or 314 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 1: was she somehow removed somewhere else, maybe under cover, and 315 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: all of this stuff was done to her. But you 316 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: can't get past the fact that this was facilitated by 317 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: an individual that had to take a significant amount of time. 318 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: You know, you can say frenzy, we can apply that term, 319 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: but still it doesn't necessarily mean that it happened over 320 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: a very short period of time. This knife was buried 321 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: into her body every single time. Remember, every time a 322 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: knife is buried, it takes effort on the part of 323 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: the perpetrator to pull it out. You know, you talked 324 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: about the sab wounds that she had on her back. 325 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: She had stab wounds so deep on her back. And 326 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, I like to teach my students that when 327 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: you think about an attack from the rear, people kind 328 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: of contract up into almost like a turtle shell. The 329 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: back is hard to get through. This knife was buried 330 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: into her back so deeply that it actually punctured one 331 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: of her lungs posteriorly, which means from behind and here's 332 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: the kicker. One of the wounds actually penetrated her A order, 333 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: which is the main vessel that comes off of the 334 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: heart that supplies blood to the rest of the body. 335 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: And you know what I know about this. I know 336 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: that she was alive when this was happening because her 337 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: left chest, her left chest where her left lung is 338 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: in the A order had begun to fill up with blood. 339 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: That means that the heart still beating at this point. 340 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: And what's very important here when you begin to try 341 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: to put this together from a forensic pathology, is a 342 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: standpoint and you begin to think about what's referred to 343 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: as sequencing of injuries, because everybody wants to know, you know, 344 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: what was the fat the fatal blow that brought about 345 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: her death at the end of the day, and how 346 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: much of the stuff that was going on this trauma 347 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: was it anti mortem or was it post mortem? And 348 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: that means staying around with a body after an individual 349 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: is deceased to continue to slice and cut and stab 350 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: and all of these things that are involved. And she's 351 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: even got you know, and we haven't even mentioned contusions. 352 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: She's got multiple blunt forced contusions. So she was struck 353 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 1: in some way or struck with something. We don't know 354 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: what that was, whether it's a hand or a fist 355 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: or some object, but she does have multiple you know, 356 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: that's a lot of activity going on in a case 357 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: like this, Jackie. So, Joe, what does it tell us 358 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: about the weapon you were just talking about that she 359 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: would stabbed so deep that it cut the eight order 360 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: around the heart? What does that tell us about the 361 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: size or the possible size of the weapon? I think 362 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: probably one of the most significant things about this weapon, Jackie. 363 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people want to think about 364 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: things like the length of the blade. That's important. Okay, 365 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: that is certainly important. It's certainly something that we consider. 366 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 1: But you know, what really fascinates me about this weapon 367 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: is that this weapon would have had to have been sturdy. 368 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: That is the backside of that weapon, if it's a 369 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: single edged blade. Just you know, if you have an 370 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: opportunity to go into your kitchen or whatever and look 371 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: at the knives you have when you in your drawer, 372 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: if you take out like an old butter knife or 373 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: even a stake knife that you've picked up at the store, 374 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: they're not really robust. They have specific edges on them. 375 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: And the back is not very robust. But if you 376 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: find a butcher knife, like a substantial butcher knife, there's 377 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: going to be a thickness that occurs on the back 378 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: of this. And the reason this is important to me, 379 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: remember what I said about stabbing her in her posterior chest, 380 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: her back. You're going to have to be able to 381 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: generate so much force, not just once, not just twice. 382 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: But we're talking about fifty injuries, Jackie. So that means 383 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 1: that that blade would have had to have been strong 384 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: enough to endure this frenetic slicing and stabbing over and 385 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: over and over again, unless unless the perpetrator showed up 386 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: with multiple edged weapons. And one more thing that you 387 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: have to consider about this. These are very specific injuries. Okay. 388 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: You know one of the reasons we sharpen knives. You 389 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: know some people have sharpeners at home. One of the 390 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: reasons we do that is because you lose your edge. 391 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: You know, after a period of time you slice things 392 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: over and over and over again in the kitchen, you 393 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: have to resharpen a knife or it's not worth any thing. 394 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: How is it that this knife you can still continue 395 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: to use this time after time after time so I 396 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: would think that that would be a good indicator from 397 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: a forensic standpoint as to how well the knife was sharpened, 398 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: the quality of the blade that it's being utilized, because 399 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: as these injuries go on, the nature of the injuries 400 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: is going to become more blunted, if you will, you 401 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: might see more hemorrhage associated with it because the edge 402 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: is not there as it was the first time that 403 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: you put the edge that knife to missus Janesi's body. 404 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: The last one is going to be particularly difficult to 405 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: enter into her body with because the edge is gone 406 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: on the weapon at that point time, or it's not 407 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: the same as it was when you actually started. Joe, 408 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: knowing what you've taught me about blood and how it 409 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: comes from the body while the heart is still pumping, 410 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: we have two victims here, a dog and a woman. 411 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: This perpetrator is going to be covered covered, literally covered 412 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: in blood. How does a person just walk away and 413 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: not be seen covered in blood? I've thought about this. 414 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: This is one of the very compelling points about this case, 415 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: because you're going to have human blood and canine blood, 416 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: which in forensic parlance is that's what we refer to 417 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: as commingling. Of blood. You can't get past that, and 418 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: I don't like to Maybe I'm being too melodramatic, but 419 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't like to use the term covered in blood. 420 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: I like to say use the term bathed in blood, 421 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: almost painted in blood, because you've got Bowie's blood and 422 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: Miss Genus's blood commingled, and it would be covering certainly 423 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: the hands, the arms. If any of the arteries are 424 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: clipped on either one of the victims, you might have 425 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: arterial spray. So that means if you clip an artery 426 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: as the heart is pumping, blood will be not just 427 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: gushing out, it'll be spraying out onto the individual. You 428 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: can't escape that that's going to be happening. So you 429 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: might have if the perpetrators in a dominant position, not 430 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: only be going to have blood up and down their arms, 431 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: think about the area beneath their neck, think about the 432 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: area over their chest. Maybe they've got clothing on, it's 433 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: going to be covered in this area, almost like they've 434 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: been painted with blood all over them. So how much 435 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: blood are we actually talk about here, Joe, You're you're 436 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: saying nicking and artery. How much blood are we talking about? Well, 437 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: you got to think Jackie that Missus Genness's body and 438 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: and and the dog's body are not going to be 439 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: completely drained of blood, and there will still be blood there. Now, 440 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: I can't tell you the volume of blood that that 441 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: a dog a dog has, but I can tell you 442 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: what the human being we're looking at potentially somewhere in 443 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: the neighborhood about two gallons. That's that's the totality of 444 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: blood that a human being has on board. You have 445 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: to think that at least probably I don't know, half 446 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: gallon of blood would have been spilled. If you've got 447 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: and it's not just one artery, Jackie, You've got multiple 448 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: arteries that are probably being clipped. I mean, let's face it, 449 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: we both both of the caroated arteries were clipped in 450 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: this case. And the fact also the fact that you 451 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: have to go into remember what I said earlier about 452 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: the lung being punctured and the chest is being filling 453 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: up with blood. That's we think while the heart is beating. 454 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: One of the things that happens with that is that 455 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: you have what's referred to as regurgitation of blood if 456 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: a lung gets clipped, so you have an individual that's 457 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: actually forcing blood out of their airway. It's just a 458 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: natural response to try to clear the airway. So they're 459 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: coughing and they're spraying blood out, so you would have 460 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: to account for that as well. It's it would be 461 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: hard to do the calculus simply, you know, trying to 462 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: think about how much blood would be at the scene, 463 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: but I can tell you it would be a substantial amount. 464 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: Jackie is horrible. As these injuries are that we're describing 465 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: right now, there's one piece of this that we still 466 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: have yet to cover, and it's it might be to 467 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: many of our listeners, one of the most shocking things 468 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: that many of us have ever heard. It is, Joe, 469 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: we have learned through the forensic information and the autopsy 470 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: that Miss Janie's body was extremely mutilated. You talked about 471 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: the damage that had been done to her face, but 472 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: we know that her body was mutilated and carved letter 473 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: or carved into this woman's abdomen. Joe, Yeah, and I've 474 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: had cases that are kind of similar to this, but 475 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: I don't think anything that's this over the top. There 476 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: were letters carved into into her body. I want to 477 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: back up just for a second and also make note 478 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: of the fact that not only were letters carved into 479 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: her body. Remember how I talked about that there was 480 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: great facial disfiguration. In addition to that, her left breast, 481 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: the nipple of her left breast has been severely disfigured 482 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: as well sliced, if you will, down to the subcutaneous 483 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: fat area. So that's that's again a full thickness injury. 484 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: And you know, I hate the word why, but as 485 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: an investigator sometimes you have to go there with that. 486 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: You have to understand, try to understand why specifically would 487 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: you target that particular area of the body. And you know, 488 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: I think that's pretty obvious. You know, many people will 489 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: say that there is a sexual connotation there, that there 490 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: is an attempt to disfigure an individual when you attack 491 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: their their sexual being if you will. And in this case, 492 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: her breast was essentially mutilated. But if that was not 493 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: bad enough, Miss Janis also had the letters F, A, 494 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: T carved into her lower chest and into her abdomen. 495 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: This injury is extensive. The letters F and A are 496 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: essentially to the right of the mid line, which is 497 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: the middle of the body just and they kind of 498 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: involved the mid line as well. Someone took the time 499 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: to take the tip of that knife, remember the knife 500 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: that we've talked about extensively that I believe is kind 501 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: of robust, it's kind of sturdy. And take the tip 502 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: of that knife and go down just shove an inch 503 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: for the letters F and A, dragging that tip through 504 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: the tissue down to the bone, if you will, and 505 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: kind of laying out these letters side by side. But 506 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: then as you cross over the middle line you get 507 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: to the letter T. They took more time with this, Jackie. 508 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: This the incised area that involved the letter T went 509 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: down even deeper, almost like they were taking more time, 510 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, to kind of put their stamp on this. 511 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: In finality, can you imagine taking that knife and dragging 512 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,239 Speaker 1: it across to do the crossbar on the T and 513 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: then down and these these letters are several inches in 514 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: length and width. And again it goes to this factor 515 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: of time. Who, who, in their right mind, and I 516 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: think that that's a valid question here, right mind would 517 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: have taken the time to do something so grotesque to 518 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: this young woman in this environment where they could, you know, 519 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: just plainly be seen. And then it's kind of the 520 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: in final with her body. If I just want folks 521 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: to really picture this so that you can understand what 522 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: has happened if you will go You know, everybody has 523 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: a sternom. It's that solid flat bone that's right in 524 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: the center of your chest. If you'll go to the 525 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,959 Speaker 1: base of your sternom, there's a little area down there 526 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: that's called the xyphoid process. It's a kind of a 527 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: little cartilaginous body, it kind of it's the terminus. If 528 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: you will of your of your breastbone, move from there 529 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: all the way down to your pubic bone. Missus Janis 530 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: was actually sliced from that point at the zyphoid all 531 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: the way down to her pubis. And this injury went 532 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: so deep, Jackie, that loops of her intestines or bowels 533 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: were actually hanging out. And again this is really hard 534 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: to hear, I know, but in the report of the 535 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, the pathologists actually noted that there was hemorrhage 536 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: in the bowel. That gives you an indication. She might 537 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: not have had an awareness of it, but her heart 538 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: was beating. Remember, we're not necessarily going to hemorrhage if 539 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: our heart is not beating, and so that's that really 540 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: paints this horrible picture of what this young woman went through. 541 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: So are you telling me, Joe that she was still 542 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: alive when this happened. Yeah, I think. I think that 543 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: we can look back on a lot of these injuries 544 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,959 Speaker 1: and say that she had at least some kind of 545 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: level of awareness of what was happening. A lot of 546 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: these injuries that have been noted over the course of 547 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: her body have areas of hemorrhage, and some of these 548 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: things are going to be postmortem. The physician doesn't go 549 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: into great detail. But the detail that this individual does 550 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: go into relative to these injuries, is there any number 551 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: of them where there was in fact hemorrhage involving uh? 552 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: These insults or injuries. Remember, let's think back to what 553 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: I said about the hemorrhage in the neck relative to 554 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: these these muscles, uh that are adjacent to the to 555 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: the cervical spawn uh, these skeletal support muscles. And then 556 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: the pathologist makes note of this, these hemorrhagic areas in 557 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: the bowel. I mean, can any of us a matter? 558 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: I mean, these are areas that you get into that 559 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: when when you're undergoing surgery. Uh, you're you're under you're 560 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: you have anesthesia that's being applied to you, so that 561 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: there is no awareness whatsoever with her. With miss Janis, 562 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: she would have had she would have had an awareness 563 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: of what was being done to her at least for 564 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: some time. We can only hope that mercifully, maybe she 565 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: lost consciousness, and I think that she probably did. But 566 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: in the meantime, uh, she was just utterly and totally 567 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: ripped to shreds. In this case, we know with the 568 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: injuries that she sustained, there was particular mutilation, damage to 569 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: the tattoo area on her back, to her breast, to 570 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: her face. I know you're not a psychologist, Joe, but 571 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: you've been studying forensics for a very long time. Does 572 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: this say to us that this was much as much 573 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: as a psychological a tortuous attack as it was just 574 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: a physical frenzy. Yeah? This goes deep, deep down into psychopathology, 575 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: because when you when you try to I mean, let's 576 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: face it, when we meet friends and loved ones, the 577 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: first thing we noticed about them are going to be 578 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: their faces, right, It's that it's that identifier that we 579 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: have as human beings, would look into their eyes, we 580 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: speak to them. What was destroyed on her, well, her 581 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: eyelids were sliced, her mouth was cut open, down to 582 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: the fatty layer and then you're going to mutilate a breast. 583 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: These things are specific identifiers that you identify or humanity 584 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: right who we are as people. The tattoo is significant 585 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: because that's something that she would have had to have 586 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: paid someone, and after she had picked this design out 587 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: that was unique to her, that she that she loved 588 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: that she I mean, she loved it to the point 589 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: where she's walking around with it every day. Why would 590 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: you go to the point to try to destroy that? Well, 591 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: you know, I submit, And again, like you said, I'm 592 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: no psychologist, but I've been around a lot of cases 593 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: where people have been ripped to shreds. And when you 594 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,959 Speaker 1: go after their specific identity, when you try to rob 595 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: them of their individual person, that says a lot about 596 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: the perpetrator. I think the question that we have to 597 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: ask is how would you even begin to measure this 598 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: level of rage and I think to a great degree 599 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: hatred in order to just absolutely ripped this young woman 600 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: to shreds. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body 601 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: Backs