1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:17,885 Speaker 1: School of Humans. So remember back in episode one, at 2 00:00:17,925 --> 00:00:21,085 Speaker 1: the beginning of this series, I talked about driving to 3 00:00:21,125 --> 00:00:24,045 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's last July, about trying to get in the 4 00:00:24,085 --> 00:00:29,045 Speaker 1: front gate, more than fifty years after Jenny, Johnny, Lonnie, Mary, 5 00:00:29,565 --> 00:00:34,245 Speaker 1: Johnny Mack, and Jesse James Andrews had left. This was 6 00:00:34,245 --> 00:00:37,765 Speaker 1: always a project about Mount Meg's back then rather than now. 7 00:00:38,485 --> 00:00:41,565 Speaker 1: But the more I looked into the institution's history, the 8 00:00:41,645 --> 00:00:44,445 Speaker 1: more I wanted to know what it was like today, 9 00:00:44,645 --> 00:00:47,565 Speaker 1: had it improved or had the lawsuit been a false 10 00:00:47,605 --> 00:00:52,325 Speaker 1: positive a promise that never manifested. For more than a year, 11 00:00:52,805 --> 00:00:55,765 Speaker 1: we tried over and over to get access to Mount Meg's, 12 00:00:56,525 --> 00:01:01,405 Speaker 1: not only for reporting purposes, but because Johnny, Mary, Jenny, 13 00:01:01,485 --> 00:01:04,405 Speaker 1: and Lonnie all expressed interest in seeing what it was 14 00:01:04,485 --> 00:01:09,565 Speaker 1: like now. We called, emailed, asked anyone who we thought 15 00:01:09,605 --> 00:01:12,685 Speaker 1: might be able to get us in, but they denied us, 16 00:01:13,165 --> 00:01:18,045 Speaker 1: giving us various excuses. They were understaffed, there were COVID restrictions, 17 00:01:18,085 --> 00:01:21,245 Speaker 1: it was too close to the holidays. They even turned 18 00:01:21,245 --> 00:01:25,645 Speaker 1: down Denny, a former law enforcement officer. We really don't 19 00:01:25,645 --> 00:01:28,045 Speaker 1: ever give tours to begin with, a staff person at 20 00:01:28,045 --> 00:01:31,725 Speaker 1: the Department of Youth Services wrote instead, she just sent 21 00:01:31,845 --> 00:01:34,325 Speaker 1: us some newsletters and a YouTube link to a video, 22 00:01:35,205 --> 00:01:38,605 Speaker 1: writing that maybe these would, as she said, provide them 23 00:01:38,645 --> 00:01:41,365 Speaker 1: some hope that things have changed and continue to change 24 00:01:41,365 --> 00:01:46,005 Speaker 1: for the better. So instead, I just decided to show 25 00:01:46,085 --> 00:01:49,405 Speaker 1: up to see as much of the place as I could. Hi, 26 00:01:50,205 --> 00:01:53,005 Speaker 1: I've been working on a project about the Mount Megs 27 00:01:53,045 --> 00:01:54,925 Speaker 1: and the sixties, and I was just hoping I could 28 00:01:54,965 --> 00:01:57,205 Speaker 1: see the campus. Is there a way we could just 29 00:01:57,325 --> 00:02:03,205 Speaker 1: drive around it? Since the series started airing, we've finally 30 00:02:03,285 --> 00:02:06,085 Speaker 1: gotten a more positive response to our request to visit 31 00:02:06,165 --> 00:02:10,365 Speaker 1: from the administrators at Mount Meg's. In mid February, an 32 00:02:10,365 --> 00:02:13,765 Speaker 1: official from the Alabama Department of Youth Services responded to 33 00:02:13,805 --> 00:02:17,085 Speaker 1: an email sent from a member of Lonnie's team. The 34 00:02:17,165 --> 00:02:20,605 Speaker 1: officials said they were open to discussing a visit from 35 00:02:20,685 --> 00:02:24,885 Speaker 1: former residence in the near future, but added that they 36 00:02:25,325 --> 00:02:28,725 Speaker 1: would like to listen to the entire series before scheduling 37 00:02:28,725 --> 00:02:34,125 Speaker 1: a specific time. In this episode, the last of the series, 38 00:02:34,645 --> 00:02:38,325 Speaker 1: we look at where Lonnie, Mary, Johnny, Jenny, and Denny 39 00:02:38,445 --> 00:02:42,525 Speaker 1: are fifty years after leaving Mount Megs. We also look 40 00:02:42,565 --> 00:02:45,965 Speaker 1: at how juvenile justice in America has evolved and how 41 00:02:45,965 --> 00:02:49,965 Speaker 1: other juvenile reform schools that mistreated their students have atoned 42 00:02:49,965 --> 00:02:53,405 Speaker 1: for their wrongs. And lastly, we get a glimpse into 43 00:02:53,445 --> 00:02:56,845 Speaker 1: the current state of Mount Meg's. Has it changed or 44 00:02:56,925 --> 00:02:59,125 Speaker 1: is it the same place it was more than fifty 45 00:02:59,245 --> 00:03:03,485 Speaker 1: years ago. The feedback that I get from my clients 46 00:03:04,005 --> 00:03:08,565 Speaker 1: while at Mount Meg's is, I think exactly what one 47 00:03:08,565 --> 00:03:11,645 Speaker 1: would expect it to be. The worst case scenario would 48 00:03:11,645 --> 00:03:15,965 Speaker 1: be death, and Mount Meg's would be immediately under that. 49 00:03:19,845 --> 00:03:24,885 Speaker 1: I'm Josie Duffie Rice. This is Unreformed the Story of 50 00:03:24,925 --> 00:03:45,845 Speaker 1: the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children, Episode eight, Searching 51 00:03:45,885 --> 00:03:53,165 Speaker 1: for Justice. Over the past year, I've thought more and 52 00:03:53,245 --> 00:03:57,085 Speaker 1: more about what justice would look like here. What would 53 00:03:57,125 --> 00:04:01,645 Speaker 1: justice look like for Lonnie, Mary, Jenny and Johnny. What 54 00:04:01,725 --> 00:04:04,045 Speaker 1: would it look like for all the students of Mount Meg's, 55 00:04:04,485 --> 00:04:07,765 Speaker 1: including the ones they today? What would it look like 56 00:04:07,845 --> 00:04:11,645 Speaker 1: for Jesse, James Andrews or Johnny mac young or the 57 00:04:11,685 --> 00:04:17,605 Speaker 1: people that they hurt? Is justice even possible? One of 58 00:04:17,605 --> 00:04:20,245 Speaker 1: the things that blew my mind is the fact that 59 00:04:20,365 --> 00:04:23,045 Speaker 1: none of the survivors we spoke to even knew about 60 00:04:23,045 --> 00:04:28,165 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty nine lawsuit until decades later. They'd been 61 00:04:28,245 --> 00:04:31,885 Speaker 1: victimized by this institution, but once they were gone, they 62 00:04:31,885 --> 00:04:36,125 Speaker 1: were gone. There was no follow up, no accounting, no 63 00:04:36,205 --> 00:04:40,445 Speaker 1: remorse from the state of Alabama. And it goes without 64 00:04:40,485 --> 00:04:44,405 Speaker 1: saying that they didn't get any relief. They didn't get 65 00:04:44,445 --> 00:04:49,125 Speaker 1: settlement money or anything. They didn't even get an apology. 66 00:04:49,165 --> 00:04:52,045 Speaker 1: They all left Mount Megs and were tossed out to 67 00:04:52,085 --> 00:04:56,485 Speaker 1: fend for themselves, and they're still paying for it. Half 68 00:04:56,525 --> 00:05:01,685 Speaker 1: a century later. In twenty twelve, Mary was at her 69 00:05:01,725 --> 00:05:05,885 Speaker 1: home in Chattanooga, sitting across from an investigator from N's 70 00:05:05,965 --> 00:05:09,925 Speaker 1: Child Protective Services. Her own children had grown up and 71 00:05:10,005 --> 00:05:13,405 Speaker 1: she wanted to become a foster parent. She was nervous 72 00:05:13,445 --> 00:05:17,125 Speaker 1: because there was something standing in her way, her criminal record, 73 00:05:17,685 --> 00:05:19,965 Speaker 1: specifically the year and a half she had spent at 74 00:05:20,005 --> 00:05:23,245 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's. It turned out that it was not going 75 00:05:23,285 --> 00:05:27,365 Speaker 1: to be an issue. Instead, this meeting connected Mary was 76 00:05:27,405 --> 00:05:30,085 Speaker 1: someone she hadn't seen since she was a child. The 77 00:05:30,165 --> 00:05:35,765 Speaker 1: investigator for Department Children's Services did my investigation to be 78 00:05:36,645 --> 00:05:40,085 Speaker 1: in the foster parenty system, and I told her about 79 00:05:40,125 --> 00:05:43,365 Speaker 1: my state at Alabam in Destri School. She said, you 80 00:05:43,405 --> 00:05:47,485 Speaker 1: know there's a book out about the school. I said, 81 00:05:47,685 --> 00:05:51,805 Speaker 1: what that book was? They had no voice By whistleblower 82 00:05:51,885 --> 00:05:56,245 Speaker 1: Denny Abbott and his co author Douglas Collegian. I hadn't 83 00:05:56,285 --> 00:05:59,365 Speaker 1: forgotten about Danny, you know. At the end of the 84 00:05:59,445 --> 00:06:02,605 Speaker 1: meeting at Mary's, the investigator gave her Denny's name and 85 00:06:02,685 --> 00:06:06,565 Speaker 1: phone number. As soon as she lived at called Denny. 86 00:06:07,365 --> 00:06:10,085 Speaker 1: That call in twenty twelve was the first time Mary 87 00:06:10,125 --> 00:06:12,685 Speaker 1: had talked to Denny since she and other runaways for 88 00:06:12,765 --> 00:06:15,845 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's pleaded for his help at the Montgomery Juvenile 89 00:06:15,845 --> 00:06:20,525 Speaker 1: Detention Center forty five years prior after I got fired. 90 00:06:20,645 --> 00:06:22,965 Speaker 1: After we file the suits, it took me almost a 91 00:06:23,005 --> 00:06:26,085 Speaker 1: year to find meaningful employment, and then at the end 92 00:06:26,085 --> 00:06:28,045 Speaker 1: of that year we had to borrow money against our 93 00:06:28,125 --> 00:06:30,845 Speaker 1: life and chaerance policy to parabills. I got a call 94 00:06:31,005 --> 00:06:33,845 Speaker 1: from O. J. Keller, who was setting up a division 95 00:06:33,885 --> 00:06:36,565 Speaker 1: a few services that had already done it in state Florida, 96 00:06:36,645 --> 00:06:40,005 Speaker 1: and he called me and he said, we have an opening. 97 00:06:40,045 --> 00:06:42,925 Speaker 1: Would you like to be the regional detention director for 98 00:06:43,045 --> 00:06:47,085 Speaker 1: South Florida? And I said absolutely, I'll be there tomorrow. 99 00:06:51,125 --> 00:06:53,205 Speaker 1: They finally saw each other for the first time in 100 00:06:53,325 --> 00:06:56,205 Speaker 1: decades when Denny gave a talk about his book at 101 00:06:56,245 --> 00:07:00,605 Speaker 1: the Rosa Parks Library and Montgomery. Their reunion was cut 102 00:07:00,605 --> 00:07:10,445 Speaker 1: briefly on video. Great Mary is with a group of women, 103 00:07:10,685 --> 00:07:14,965 Speaker 1: also survivors of Mount Meg's. Denny hugs each of them, 104 00:07:15,005 --> 00:07:18,125 Speaker 1: but you can tell he shares a special connection with Mary. 105 00:07:19,805 --> 00:07:26,485 Speaker 1: Letter tears and I thanked him for helping me and 106 00:07:26,685 --> 00:07:32,125 Speaker 1: for me getting out of being able to leave, for 107 00:07:32,285 --> 00:07:40,445 Speaker 1: not being killed. He's more than a friend. I look 108 00:07:40,525 --> 00:07:47,525 Speaker 1: up to him lis at the Bigger Household because of 109 00:07:47,565 --> 00:07:53,085 Speaker 1: his care and the way he felt about children and me. 110 00:07:56,125 --> 00:07:59,765 Speaker 1: Mary Stevens was always looking for a family. She grew 111 00:07:59,845 --> 00:08:02,965 Speaker 1: up in an unstable household, and when she first arrived 112 00:08:02,965 --> 00:08:06,005 Speaker 1: at Mount Meg's, she hoped that Fanny Matthew was going 113 00:08:06,045 --> 00:08:09,525 Speaker 1: to adopt her, but in some ways, that feeling of 114 00:08:09,525 --> 00:08:14,005 Speaker 1: family safety always eluded her. After she was released from 115 00:08:14,045 --> 00:08:19,445 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's, she was plagued by instability once again. Would 116 00:08:19,485 --> 00:08:24,445 Speaker 1: I left Alabama? Sent me right back to the same 117 00:08:24,605 --> 00:08:29,765 Speaker 1: foster home birthplaces? I got right. My brothers and sisters 118 00:08:29,805 --> 00:08:37,845 Speaker 1: were there. I left the foster home, got married, had 119 00:08:37,845 --> 00:08:41,325 Speaker 1: a baby at nineteen. But while she tried to build 120 00:08:41,325 --> 00:08:45,125 Speaker 1: the family she always wanted her brothers and sisters were 121 00:08:45,205 --> 00:08:48,725 Speaker 1: left behind. I know they will be a beat for 122 00:08:48,885 --> 00:08:53,525 Speaker 1: the raise of strap and so Mary did something bold, risky. 123 00:08:54,045 --> 00:08:56,845 Speaker 1: I stole my brothers and sisters from that boster who 124 00:08:58,405 --> 00:09:02,045 Speaker 1: It was a crazy idea, one that if things went wrong, 125 00:09:02,325 --> 00:09:05,245 Speaker 1: could have resulted in her child being taken from her, 126 00:09:06,365 --> 00:09:09,445 Speaker 1: but Mary did it anyway. I told my brother when 127 00:09:09,445 --> 00:09:17,165 Speaker 1: I was coming for him to be ready, one brother 128 00:09:17,245 --> 00:09:24,365 Speaker 1: and two sisters. I was scared. I was so scared. 129 00:09:24,765 --> 00:09:27,005 Speaker 1: It was scared. Police go to be behind me, had 130 00:09:27,005 --> 00:09:31,005 Speaker 1: my brother looking out who was speeding. We're probably gotten 131 00:09:31,045 --> 00:09:34,325 Speaker 1: stopped for speeding. Fast is that we got stopped for 132 00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:39,765 Speaker 1: stolen children. Mary and her siblings made it across the 133 00:09:39,765 --> 00:09:44,125 Speaker 1: state line to Tennessee. By that time, Mary had already 134 00:09:44,205 --> 00:09:47,565 Speaker 1: left her husband, so she was a young single mother 135 00:09:48,245 --> 00:09:50,845 Speaker 1: trying to take care of her child and her siblings. 136 00:09:52,085 --> 00:09:55,205 Speaker 1: She struggled to make ends meet. When I got them 137 00:09:55,205 --> 00:09:59,565 Speaker 1: to Tennessee, I couldn't take care of them. I was 138 00:09:59,645 --> 00:10:01,885 Speaker 1: making a dollar sixty see an hour or make the 139 00:10:01,925 --> 00:10:06,725 Speaker 1: police department as a dispatch. I had a child, and 140 00:10:06,885 --> 00:10:09,445 Speaker 1: I couldn't get any help for little brothers and sisters. 141 00:10:09,485 --> 00:10:17,445 Speaker 1: So they hated at boor to TPSS Tennessee Preparatory School. 142 00:10:17,765 --> 00:10:21,605 Speaker 1: But it was nothing like not for Mary. Her life 143 00:10:21,645 --> 00:10:25,205 Speaker 1: as an adult wasn't always easy, but it was better 144 00:10:25,245 --> 00:10:30,245 Speaker 1: than her childhood. She remarried, had more children, divorced again. 145 00:10:31,325 --> 00:10:34,805 Speaker 1: She built a career as an insurance agent. But in 146 00:10:34,845 --> 00:10:39,045 Speaker 1: recent years Mary was called to something else, foster parenting. 147 00:10:39,965 --> 00:10:43,645 Speaker 1: I think Matt Mags had like to do that. After 148 00:10:44,045 --> 00:10:46,965 Speaker 1: I divorced and new that I wanted to do something good, 149 00:10:47,005 --> 00:10:50,485 Speaker 1: so I started to post at home. When they came 150 00:10:50,525 --> 00:10:54,165 Speaker 1: into my house, they were calling me miss Mary. I 151 00:10:54,285 --> 00:10:58,285 Speaker 1: told them you can call me what everyone. You don't 152 00:10:58,285 --> 00:11:01,925 Speaker 1: have to call me miss Mary. And I explained to 153 00:11:02,005 --> 00:11:03,925 Speaker 1: him how much I loved them and cared for him, 154 00:11:03,965 --> 00:11:08,565 Speaker 1: and you know, thank you was Nana. Mary showed us 155 00:11:08,565 --> 00:11:11,725 Speaker 1: a property behind her house. She used to own three 156 00:11:11,765 --> 00:11:16,325 Speaker 1: lots but ended up selling them off. Actually I wanted 157 00:11:16,365 --> 00:11:20,245 Speaker 1: to start a school. That's why I had these three lots. 158 00:11:20,685 --> 00:11:24,525 Speaker 1: I wanted to school. But I got sick and I 159 00:11:24,525 --> 00:11:28,645 Speaker 1: got to have back surgery again. So I was diagnosed 160 00:11:28,685 --> 00:11:31,645 Speaker 1: with room toward authors in nineteen eighty eight. I came 161 00:11:31,685 --> 00:11:36,045 Speaker 1: home in seventy so I've been dealing with this since 162 00:11:36,125 --> 00:11:41,845 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight and worse. You know, five row miles 163 00:11:43,165 --> 00:11:50,045 Speaker 1: the genitive discs deteriorating and stuff. We found that this 164 00:11:50,125 --> 00:11:52,605 Speaker 1: is true for a lot of survivors of Mount Mags. 165 00:11:53,325 --> 00:11:57,205 Speaker 1: There are permanent injuries that started young, often in the back. 166 00:11:57,885 --> 00:12:01,565 Speaker 1: Let's still have the disability in my bag where I 167 00:12:01,645 --> 00:12:05,685 Speaker 1: can't sit very long or stand very long. Here's any 168 00:12:05,765 --> 00:12:09,805 Speaker 1: knocks from the outside. Jenny appears to have a sense 169 00:12:09,845 --> 00:12:13,645 Speaker 1: of serenity with her family photos and the Bible collection 170 00:12:13,765 --> 00:12:17,525 Speaker 1: at her Montgomery home, but the years following her release 171 00:12:17,605 --> 00:12:22,125 Speaker 1: from Mount Mags were rough. I came home and I've 172 00:12:22,125 --> 00:12:25,805 Speaker 1: been stuck ever since, from the time I left My 173 00:12:25,845 --> 00:12:32,405 Speaker 1: Mags until my adulthood, just feeling stagnated, mentally stagnated. After 174 00:12:32,485 --> 00:12:35,445 Speaker 1: Mount Mags, Jenny moved to Atlanta, where she worked as 175 00:12:35,445 --> 00:12:40,605 Speaker 1: a nanny. She found herself in and out of tumultuous relationships, 176 00:12:40,605 --> 00:12:44,365 Speaker 1: and eventually she moved back to Montgomery. I think I 177 00:12:44,445 --> 00:12:49,045 Speaker 1: came out with lots of anger emmy, lots of hurt. 178 00:12:50,325 --> 00:12:54,685 Speaker 1: I was troubled, I was confused, I didn't know who 179 00:12:54,685 --> 00:12:57,885 Speaker 1: to trust. I just hung out by myself a lot 180 00:12:57,925 --> 00:13:02,045 Speaker 1: of times because I didn't think nobody would really care 181 00:13:02,285 --> 00:13:05,765 Speaker 1: or would really understand what I had gone through, or 182 00:13:06,925 --> 00:13:11,525 Speaker 1: maybe I didn't understand you know, life itself, having most 183 00:13:11,565 --> 00:13:17,365 Speaker 1: of my teenage years taken away from me, and I 184 00:13:17,485 --> 00:13:19,565 Speaker 1: think it was when I gave my life to Christ 185 00:13:19,645 --> 00:13:30,645 Speaker 1: in eighty three when I really feel like releasing away. 186 00:13:34,685 --> 00:13:38,925 Speaker 1: Jenny got saved in nineteen eighty three and ordained in 187 00:13:39,045 --> 00:13:43,605 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and ever since then she's been intimately 188 00:13:43,685 --> 00:13:47,485 Speaker 1: involved with her church. It was her pastor and his 189 00:13:47,565 --> 00:13:50,485 Speaker 1: wife who were the first people she was able to 190 00:13:50,525 --> 00:13:54,125 Speaker 1: open up to about Mount Meg's. I sat down and 191 00:13:54,205 --> 00:13:58,525 Speaker 1: talked to my pastor's wife first, and then that encouraged 192 00:13:58,565 --> 00:14:01,685 Speaker 1: me to just go forward and talk about it. Both 193 00:14:01,765 --> 00:14:04,245 Speaker 1: Jenny and Mary said they haven't talked about what they 194 00:14:04,245 --> 00:14:08,285 Speaker 1: went throughout Mount Meg's with many people, even family. Miss 195 00:14:08,325 --> 00:14:10,725 Speaker 1: Matthews had already told us that no matter who we 196 00:14:10,765 --> 00:14:13,045 Speaker 1: talked today, wasn't going to believe us, and you know 197 00:14:13,125 --> 00:14:16,645 Speaker 1: from the start, and so I guess it has settled 198 00:14:16,645 --> 00:14:19,645 Speaker 1: in my mind, you know, what's the use of trying 199 00:14:19,685 --> 00:14:24,165 Speaker 1: to tell anybody anything about it? And then I didn't 200 00:14:24,165 --> 00:14:28,925 Speaker 1: think my family would really understand, so I just kept 201 00:14:28,965 --> 00:14:34,485 Speaker 1: it held me in. Mary such something similar. I've tried 202 00:14:34,725 --> 00:14:38,485 Speaker 1: to talk to my daughter about it. She thinks just 203 00:14:38,645 --> 00:14:40,805 Speaker 1: because I stayed out of school. I just didn't want 204 00:14:40,805 --> 00:14:44,565 Speaker 1: to go to school. This reason I had to go away, 205 00:14:44,605 --> 00:14:46,805 Speaker 1: But it wasn't I've tried to explain too of the 206 00:14:46,925 --> 00:14:50,085 Speaker 1: childhood that we had. And this is something that you 207 00:14:50,125 --> 00:14:54,085 Speaker 1: don't talk about love because people think you did something 208 00:14:55,125 --> 00:15:15,125 Speaker 1: you don't want to go No roomy, that's Johnny Body singing. 209 00:15:15,965 --> 00:15:19,165 Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties, Johnny started working with kids at 210 00:15:19,165 --> 00:15:23,965 Speaker 1: a secure treatment facility for juvenile delinquents in Boston, Gazzy 211 00:15:24,045 --> 00:15:28,685 Speaker 1: In for rate murder robber teenagers fifteen sixteen years old. 212 00:15:29,205 --> 00:15:32,005 Speaker 1: And one of the good things about that situation is 213 00:15:32,245 --> 00:15:36,765 Speaker 1: whenever I started talking, they would listen because I started 214 00:15:36,765 --> 00:15:39,365 Speaker 1: talking about Mount Meiggs, start talking about what I was 215 00:15:39,445 --> 00:15:41,685 Speaker 1: locked up in, the things that I did, and they say, 216 00:15:41,765 --> 00:15:45,805 Speaker 1: and you are counselor. I said, yeah, I said you 217 00:15:45,845 --> 00:15:49,685 Speaker 1: could change. But Johnny wasn't exactly on the street and 218 00:15:49,845 --> 00:15:53,645 Speaker 1: narrow yet. When he moved to Boston in the nineteen seventies, 219 00:15:54,085 --> 00:15:58,005 Speaker 1: he was part time musician, part time self described hustler, 220 00:15:58,885 --> 00:16:02,805 Speaker 1: prone to petty theft, robbery. Here and there. He was 221 00:16:02,885 --> 00:16:05,645 Speaker 1: teaching the kids he worked with to be better, but 222 00:16:05,805 --> 00:16:09,605 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily following his own advice. And then I would 223 00:16:09,605 --> 00:16:12,525 Speaker 1: go back and be with the young guys. So my 224 00:16:12,645 --> 00:16:15,645 Speaker 1: conscience start bothering me. I mean, how could I be 225 00:16:15,685 --> 00:16:18,085 Speaker 1: trying to change these gathered I'm still at here, This 226 00:16:18,245 --> 00:16:20,365 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying to myself. And I did that 227 00:16:20,525 --> 00:16:24,485 Speaker 1: for about fifteen years, working with these gays, you know. 228 00:16:24,685 --> 00:16:31,485 Speaker 1: So eventually I just just he ended up changing. And 229 00:16:31,565 --> 00:16:33,245 Speaker 1: that's the best thing that ever happened to me in 230 00:16:33,285 --> 00:16:37,645 Speaker 1: my life, you know. For the other Johnny, Johnny Mack Young, 231 00:16:38,365 --> 00:16:42,485 Speaker 1: he's serving life without parole as we speak, for years. 232 00:16:42,805 --> 00:16:46,085 Speaker 1: He had a plan, so I had made a commitment 233 00:16:46,085 --> 00:16:49,165 Speaker 1: to myself there, but I got to live without parole. 234 00:16:49,205 --> 00:16:52,845 Speaker 1: When I get tired during the time, I'm just gonna 235 00:16:52,885 --> 00:16:58,205 Speaker 1: make you, thought me. He'd commit suicide by cop by 236 00:16:58,245 --> 00:17:02,965 Speaker 1: doing something that would force the prison guards to kill him. 237 00:17:03,085 --> 00:17:06,325 Speaker 1: That led to a standoff with guards while at Holman, 238 00:17:06,805 --> 00:17:11,045 Speaker 1: one of the most infamously brutal prisons in the country. 239 00:17:11,085 --> 00:17:15,645 Speaker 1: But Johnny Mack survives a standoff, and he started corresponding 240 00:17:15,645 --> 00:17:19,965 Speaker 1: with a prison advocacy volunteer via mail. He was shocked 241 00:17:20,005 --> 00:17:23,365 Speaker 1: that someone would want to help him. I realized, I 242 00:17:23,405 --> 00:17:25,965 Speaker 1: don't want to be that person I used to speak 243 00:17:27,285 --> 00:17:31,685 Speaker 1: and the first baby I had to resolve why was 244 00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:35,805 Speaker 1: the person that I would And it was all because 245 00:17:35,885 --> 00:17:39,605 Speaker 1: of the treatment and the same that I was taught 246 00:17:39,645 --> 00:17:44,085 Speaker 1: in my murde. So he started taking college courses offered 247 00:17:44,085 --> 00:17:49,365 Speaker 1: in prison, first psychology, then writing. He's a poet and 248 00:17:49,405 --> 00:17:53,925 Speaker 1: an essayist. He has a bachelor's degree in theology. He 249 00:17:54,045 --> 00:17:58,085 Speaker 1: and some other incarcerated men produced a radio show. He 250 00:17:58,165 --> 00:18:02,005 Speaker 1: also works as a jailhouse lawyer, helping other inmates file appeals. 251 00:18:03,725 --> 00:18:06,885 Speaker 1: But for Johnny mac, the biggest change happened when the 252 00:18:06,885 --> 00:18:13,845 Speaker 1: Alabama Department of Corrections started offering meditation courses. I've just 253 00:18:13,965 --> 00:18:18,245 Speaker 1: staying in like about twenty three, and we learned how 254 00:18:18,325 --> 00:18:25,045 Speaker 1: to you know, concentrate demand and get obsure sensation. Well 255 00:18:25,125 --> 00:18:28,045 Speaker 1: that's it's change left five and it just learned it. 256 00:18:28,125 --> 00:18:31,725 Speaker 1: Then got compassion. See like I almost a crying a 257 00:18:31,765 --> 00:18:34,205 Speaker 1: little while when I was talking to you. I'm not 258 00:18:34,365 --> 00:18:38,805 Speaker 1: affected by what happened back then, but just expression and saying, 259 00:18:39,405 --> 00:18:44,085 Speaker 1: you know, killing somebody around it's enough to bring cheese 260 00:18:44,165 --> 00:18:48,525 Speaker 1: tom eyes right. Johnny Mack has been in prison for 261 00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:53,045 Speaker 1: thirty six years. He's seventy three now. He's currently building 262 00:18:53,085 --> 00:18:56,085 Speaker 1: a case in hopes of being furloughed under Alabama law. 263 00:18:57,045 --> 00:19:00,205 Speaker 1: He says he meets two of the requirements. He's a 264 00:19:00,285 --> 00:19:06,085 Speaker 1: geriatric inmate, and he's permanently incapacitated. He had back pain 265 00:19:06,205 --> 00:19:09,205 Speaker 1: so debilitating that sometimes it's hard for him to move 266 00:19:09,285 --> 00:19:13,885 Speaker 1: at all. But because he's in prison, Johnny Max still 267 00:19:13,925 --> 00:19:17,605 Speaker 1: has not received treatment. He's in his seventies now, though, 268 00:19:18,325 --> 00:19:22,125 Speaker 1: and prison does at number on a person's life expectancy. 269 00:19:22,325 --> 00:19:26,925 Speaker 1: Seventy three in prison is very different than seventy three outside. 270 00:19:28,165 --> 00:19:32,125 Speaker 1: His health and survival is a race against the clock. 271 00:19:40,445 --> 00:19:44,285 Speaker 1: Remember how he started this series, Lonnie Holly was out 272 00:19:44,365 --> 00:19:48,725 Speaker 1: late at night exploring the streets of Birmingham, finding interesting 273 00:19:48,765 --> 00:19:53,205 Speaker 1: things among the trash. He'd been separated from his parents 274 00:19:53,245 --> 00:19:57,005 Speaker 1: and his dozens of siblings as a baby, and by 275 00:19:57,005 --> 00:19:59,085 Speaker 1: the time he got to Mount Meg's he'd been given 276 00:19:59,085 --> 00:20:04,005 Speaker 1: a different name entirely. But unlike so many other kids 277 00:20:04,045 --> 00:20:07,725 Speaker 1: who got taken from their family, Lonnie actually found his 278 00:20:08,685 --> 00:20:12,325 Speaker 1: by sheer coincidence. During a conversation he was having one 279 00:20:12,405 --> 00:20:16,405 Speaker 1: day with another student at Mount Max, I was telling 280 00:20:16,485 --> 00:20:21,805 Speaker 1: him about how I had been trying to get to 281 00:20:21,845 --> 00:20:25,965 Speaker 1: the airport out to the Hollies and he asked me, 282 00:20:26,485 --> 00:20:30,925 Speaker 1: what about the Hollies. He said he knowed some hollies 283 00:20:31,045 --> 00:20:34,925 Speaker 1: is up the heel from what will. Word got back 284 00:20:34,925 --> 00:20:37,685 Speaker 1: to Lonnie's grandmother that the baby they've been looking for 285 00:20:37,725 --> 00:20:40,885 Speaker 1: all of this time, the one taken by aber Less 286 00:20:40,925 --> 00:20:44,405 Speaker 1: Dancer more than a dozen years before, was locked up 287 00:20:44,765 --> 00:20:48,725 Speaker 1: just a couple of hours away. My grandmother. When she 288 00:20:48,845 --> 00:20:51,285 Speaker 1: found out that I was there, she came to visit 289 00:20:51,365 --> 00:20:55,445 Speaker 1: me on that Sunday. So once she presented the birth 290 00:20:55,445 --> 00:21:01,125 Speaker 1: certificate and everything that I was Lonnie Bradley Holly, they 291 00:21:01,205 --> 00:21:06,925 Speaker 1: released me into her custody and I came home with her. 292 00:21:08,685 --> 00:21:11,845 Speaker 1: It was nineteen sixty four when Lonnie was finally released 293 00:21:11,845 --> 00:21:16,965 Speaker 1: from Mount Meg's. He was fourteen years old. Lonnie was 294 00:21:17,005 --> 00:21:20,285 Speaker 1: glad to be reunited with his family, but the trauma 295 00:21:20,565 --> 00:21:24,605 Speaker 1: and abuse he experienced at Mount Meg's stayed with him 296 00:21:24,885 --> 00:21:29,645 Speaker 1: as he reacclimated to life outside, trying to fit back 297 00:21:29,685 --> 00:21:35,685 Speaker 1: into the social system, it was almost impossible. His grandmother 298 00:21:35,765 --> 00:21:39,525 Speaker 1: tried to enroll him back in school, but I wasn't 299 00:21:39,525 --> 00:21:55,205 Speaker 1: with that in America side. At age fifteen, Lonnie followed 300 00:21:55,205 --> 00:21:58,165 Speaker 1: one of his brothers to Florida and did whatever work 301 00:21:58,205 --> 00:22:01,805 Speaker 1: he could pick up. He later became a cook at 302 00:22:01,845 --> 00:22:05,645 Speaker 1: Disney World when it opened near Orlando in nineteen seventy one. 303 00:22:06,845 --> 00:22:09,325 Speaker 1: He's had a few scrapes at the law. He spent 304 00:22:09,365 --> 00:22:13,605 Speaker 1: a couple of nights in jail, but nothing else. Since 305 00:22:13,645 --> 00:22:17,045 Speaker 1: the late nineteen seventies, Lonnie's life has been dedicated to 306 00:22:17,085 --> 00:22:21,725 Speaker 1: his art. He's an extremely successful visual artist and even 307 00:22:21,765 --> 00:22:25,685 Speaker 1: has a cult following as a musician. But despite his 308 00:22:25,725 --> 00:22:29,765 Speaker 1: eventful life traveling the world as an artist at a musician, 309 00:22:30,445 --> 00:22:33,125 Speaker 1: those formative years at Mount Meg's are embedded in his 310 00:22:33,205 --> 00:22:36,565 Speaker 1: head and in his body. Here's a clip from a 311 00:22:36,645 --> 00:22:40,085 Speaker 1: sound check in the UK when Lonnie busted out something 312 00:22:40,085 --> 00:22:42,365 Speaker 1: he learned as a kid that he called the Mount 313 00:22:42,445 --> 00:22:46,325 Speaker 1: Meg's Stomp, the rhythm track for this podcast theme song. 314 00:23:01,365 --> 00:23:03,165 Speaker 1: Lonnie is the only one who has been able to 315 00:23:03,165 --> 00:23:07,485 Speaker 1: get back inside Mount Meg's. He went in twenty thirteen 316 00:23:07,525 --> 00:23:11,405 Speaker 1: with a camera crew. During the visit, he clutched onto 317 00:23:11,445 --> 00:23:15,205 Speaker 1: the arm of a close family friend, terrified, I get 318 00:23:15,205 --> 00:23:20,085 Speaker 1: the heebie jeebs now you know, Okay, get your camera ready, 319 00:23:20,205 --> 00:23:22,965 Speaker 1: cutsy dang gonna. This is this is the way they 320 00:23:23,005 --> 00:23:27,485 Speaker 1: brought us in. Unlike us, Lonnie was allowed to tour 321 00:23:27,565 --> 00:23:31,005 Speaker 1: the facility. He saw the old building that Eby Holloway 322 00:23:31,085 --> 00:23:34,805 Speaker 1: used to live in, the white dormitory where the girls lived. 323 00:23:36,245 --> 00:23:39,645 Speaker 1: The next year, he went back again, and this time 324 00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,085 Speaker 1: just stood outside the gate reflecting on his time there, 325 00:23:43,925 --> 00:23:48,485 Speaker 1: especially on the rock pile. It was just so horrible 326 00:23:48,605 --> 00:23:50,925 Speaker 1: that I couldn't get it out of my memory. It 327 00:23:50,965 --> 00:23:56,365 Speaker 1: was almost like you having to go through the shale shop, 328 00:23:56,805 --> 00:23:59,765 Speaker 1: like you're being in the military, and it's just constantly 329 00:23:59,765 --> 00:24:02,405 Speaker 1: going through your brain, and this is something that you 330 00:24:02,525 --> 00:24:08,205 Speaker 1: just can't forget about. Lonnie's art is one way of 331 00:24:08,205 --> 00:24:11,645 Speaker 1: working through the trauma he endured there. I talked to 332 00:24:11,725 --> 00:24:14,685 Speaker 1: him about his sculpture Blood on the Rock Pile and 333 00:24:14,885 --> 00:24:17,645 Speaker 1: some of his other pieces that refer directly to Mount Meg's. 334 00:24:18,925 --> 00:24:23,765 Speaker 1: In one piece, he padlocked together eight spoons. It's called 335 00:24:23,885 --> 00:24:30,565 Speaker 1: chain Gang Mount Meg's. Another called Whitewash, features seven broken mops. 336 00:24:31,285 --> 00:24:33,805 Speaker 1: The mop heads are dirty, like how the kids in 337 00:24:33,805 --> 00:24:36,845 Speaker 1: White would have looked after spending days or months on 338 00:24:36,885 --> 00:24:41,885 Speaker 1: the rock pile. That's Meanwhile, I like doing abstract called 339 00:24:41,885 --> 00:24:45,005 Speaker 1: the abstract can allow me and put my hand back 340 00:24:45,045 --> 00:24:48,285 Speaker 1: in situation and then I can redo it. Here is 341 00:24:48,405 --> 00:24:51,605 Speaker 1: something here I don't know what I can peel is 342 00:24:51,645 --> 00:24:56,245 Speaker 1: away with the camera rolling, Lonnie peeled away a small 343 00:24:56,285 --> 00:25:00,445 Speaker 1: piece of paint from the fence surrounding the grounds. So 344 00:25:00,765 --> 00:25:04,805 Speaker 1: get that little piece or idea is enough to remind 345 00:25:04,885 --> 00:25:08,885 Speaker 1: me that I I have been here today. So Lonnie, 346 00:25:09,445 --> 00:25:13,565 Speaker 1: always fascinated by found objects that others would discard, took 347 00:25:13,605 --> 00:25:17,085 Speaker 1: that small piece of Mount Megs with him, a fragment 348 00:25:17,245 --> 00:25:19,765 Speaker 1: of a part of his life that he couldn't erase. 349 00:25:24,005 --> 00:25:27,605 Speaker 1: We could have told you the simple story, the easy one, 350 00:25:28,525 --> 00:25:32,565 Speaker 1: that the nineteen sixty nine lawsuit changed everything, that after 351 00:25:32,685 --> 00:25:36,605 Speaker 1: Judge Frank Johnson ruled against the State of Alabama, Mount 352 00:25:36,645 --> 00:25:40,885 Speaker 1: Meg's magically transformed into a caring home for children, a 353 00:25:40,925 --> 00:25:45,765 Speaker 1: true place of rehabilitation. This is a story Mount Megs 354 00:25:45,805 --> 00:25:50,245 Speaker 1: likes to tell too. In their January newsletter, the department 355 00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:53,445 Speaker 1: said they welcome some new ideas on how best to 356 00:25:53,525 --> 00:26:00,445 Speaker 1: rehabilitate youth. They mentioned that they prioritize communication and collaboration, writing, 357 00:26:00,885 --> 00:26:05,165 Speaker 1: we share ideas freely and courageously. We embrace the potential 358 00:26:05,205 --> 00:26:09,205 Speaker 1: of ideas and approaches. But the truth, as far as 359 00:26:09,205 --> 00:26:13,365 Speaker 1: I can tell, is more complicated. Since the lawsuit, Mount 360 00:26:13,405 --> 00:26:17,005 Speaker 1: meg seems to have gotten better, but it never got good. 361 00:26:18,285 --> 00:26:21,765 Speaker 1: Some parts did improve, at least at first. It was 362 00:26:21,845 --> 00:26:24,885 Speaker 1: less crowded that it had been. Kids had shoes to wear, 363 00:26:26,125 --> 00:26:30,485 Speaker 1: but plenty of things stayed the same. In the past 364 00:26:30,565 --> 00:26:34,445 Speaker 1: fifty years, countless children have run away, just as they 365 00:26:34,525 --> 00:26:38,165 Speaker 1: used to, sometimes in packs of three or seven or 366 00:26:38,205 --> 00:26:42,245 Speaker 1: even eleven. The state would once again use dogs to 367 00:26:42,245 --> 00:26:45,365 Speaker 1: sniff them out, and if and when they were caught, 368 00:26:45,725 --> 00:26:50,285 Speaker 1: they'd be arrested and sent to adult jail. And over 369 00:26:50,325 --> 00:26:54,525 Speaker 1: the past fifty years, the overcrowding and poor infrastructure have 370 00:26:54,685 --> 00:26:58,325 Speaker 1: made the news again every so often, as state authorities 371 00:26:58,365 --> 00:27:03,645 Speaker 1: once again claim they're helpless to address the problems. And 372 00:27:03,805 --> 00:27:06,725 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's tradition of poor record keeping didn't end in 373 00:27:06,805 --> 00:27:11,285 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one either. For example, in nineteen ninety seven, 374 00:27:11,605 --> 00:27:14,245 Speaker 1: a board member noticed that the school had somehow lost 375 00:27:14,285 --> 00:27:17,925 Speaker 1: ownership of seven hundred acres of land since the early 376 00:27:18,005 --> 00:27:22,405 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and no one knew how. The school blamed 377 00:27:22,445 --> 00:27:25,325 Speaker 1: the lack of paper trail on a nineteen seventy six 378 00:27:25,405 --> 00:27:31,005 Speaker 1: fire that destroyed the institution's administrative records, but the board 379 00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:34,685 Speaker 1: member noted that the missing land had happened after the fire. 380 00:27:35,685 --> 00:27:39,365 Speaker 1: He suspected that the land had been traded for political favors. 381 00:27:40,565 --> 00:27:44,125 Speaker 1: And there have still been credible allegations of abuse perpetrated 382 00:27:44,165 --> 00:27:48,325 Speaker 1: by staff and other students. Some of those allegations are 383 00:27:48,365 --> 00:27:53,405 Speaker 1: in letters from parents or whispered among practitioners. Others can 384 00:27:53,445 --> 00:27:58,605 Speaker 1: be found in lawsuits or newspaper articles. In twenty eleven, 385 00:27:58,685 --> 00:28:02,165 Speaker 1: for example, a student filed suit against a school officer 386 00:28:02,685 --> 00:28:05,245 Speaker 1: alleging he shoved him into the wall and slammed his 387 00:28:05,805 --> 00:28:11,565 Speaker 1: into a table. The court noted the injuries bleeding bruises, 388 00:28:12,005 --> 00:28:16,885 Speaker 1: cracked teeth, a swollen head. The feedback that I get 389 00:28:16,925 --> 00:28:21,405 Speaker 1: from my clients while at Mount Megs is I think 390 00:28:21,485 --> 00:28:24,925 Speaker 1: exactly what one would expect it to be. The worst 391 00:28:24,965 --> 00:28:28,485 Speaker 1: case scenario would be death, and Mount Meg's would be 392 00:28:29,285 --> 00:28:34,605 Speaker 1: immediately under that. That's Jennifer Schnipper, a lawyer who's practiced 393 00:28:34,645 --> 00:28:40,445 Speaker 1: family law in Birmingham, Alabama for almost fifteen years. Relatively 394 00:28:40,445 --> 00:28:43,725 Speaker 1: early in Jennifer's career, she had a young client facing 395 00:28:43,765 --> 00:28:48,805 Speaker 1: time at Mount Meg's. The judge was very clear in saying, 396 00:28:49,205 --> 00:28:52,525 Speaker 1: have you ever been to Mount Megs? And I said no, 397 00:28:53,285 --> 00:28:57,605 Speaker 1: and he said you should go. So Jennifer arranged to 398 00:28:57,685 --> 00:29:01,965 Speaker 1: visit the facility and immediately she understood what the judge meant. 399 00:29:02,765 --> 00:29:09,885 Speaker 1: It's stark, it's cold, depressing, it's intimidating, and these I 400 00:29:10,005 --> 00:29:15,125 Speaker 1: knew were kids anywhere from twelve to nineteen twenty twenty 401 00:29:15,125 --> 00:29:19,845 Speaker 1: one years old that could be in there for three months, 402 00:29:19,885 --> 00:29:25,925 Speaker 1: six months, three years. It was shocking that visit to 403 00:29:25,925 --> 00:29:30,005 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's has shaped Jennifer's decisions as someone who represents 404 00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:33,565 Speaker 1: children in court, by fight to keep my clients out 405 00:29:33,565 --> 00:29:37,165 Speaker 1: of Mount Meg's because from my perspective, there is very 406 00:29:37,165 --> 00:29:42,125 Speaker 1: little value in a commitment to Mount Meg's. I don't 407 00:29:42,165 --> 00:29:46,925 Speaker 1: find that it particularly benefits my clients, and I often 408 00:29:47,045 --> 00:29:51,165 Speaker 1: feel like it becomes a bigger detriment to my clients. 409 00:29:51,885 --> 00:29:55,685 Speaker 1: Over the past couple of decades, the consensus around juvenile 410 00:29:55,725 --> 00:29:59,405 Speaker 1: justice in America has shifted. In two thousand and five, 411 00:29:59,725 --> 00:30:04,285 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ruled that's sentencing juveniles to death was unconstitutional, 412 00:30:05,205 --> 00:30:09,845 Speaker 1: and twelve the Court also outlawed mandatory life without parole 413 00:30:09,885 --> 00:30:15,125 Speaker 1: sentences for children. We know more about children now, more 414 00:30:15,125 --> 00:30:19,325 Speaker 1: about their brain development, their decision making, the impulses that 415 00:30:19,405 --> 00:30:23,165 Speaker 1: lead them to act out, and in some ways that 416 00:30:23,325 --> 00:30:27,645 Speaker 1: knowledge is changing how the juvenile justice system works. Even 417 00:30:27,725 --> 00:30:32,605 Speaker 1: in places like Alabama, the juvenile justice system tends to 418 00:30:32,685 --> 00:30:37,325 Speaker 1: have changed perspectives significantly. We look at the child as 419 00:30:37,365 --> 00:30:41,205 Speaker 1: a whole. In other words, they're more likely to try 420 00:30:41,285 --> 00:30:45,645 Speaker 1: other ways of addressing the issues that children face, meaning 421 00:30:45,645 --> 00:30:49,525 Speaker 1: that sending kids to places like Mount Meg's has steadily decreased, 422 00:30:49,565 --> 00:30:53,805 Speaker 1: and it continues to decrease. I think commitments account for 423 00:30:53,845 --> 00:30:59,565 Speaker 1: a very low number of outcomes for these delinquency cases. 424 00:30:59,645 --> 00:31:04,085 Speaker 1: There are so many resources in place that can help 425 00:31:04,205 --> 00:31:07,405 Speaker 1: us keep that from happen. There's one more thing about 426 00:31:07,405 --> 00:31:12,085 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's that hasn't changed, and that's the suffering in silence. 427 00:31:13,445 --> 00:31:15,805 Speaker 1: There's not much more interest in what's happening there now 428 00:31:16,125 --> 00:31:20,485 Speaker 1: than there was fifty years ago. Some other institutions have 429 00:31:20,565 --> 00:31:25,525 Speaker 1: seemed backlash related to their mistreatment of children, but there's 430 00:31:25,565 --> 00:31:40,765 Speaker 1: been no reckoning at Mount Megs. We mentioned at the 431 00:31:40,805 --> 00:31:44,005 Speaker 1: beginning of this podcast that Mount Meg's wasn't the only 432 00:31:44,085 --> 00:31:48,605 Speaker 1: school that abused children. At the Dojer School in Florida, 433 00:31:48,805 --> 00:31:52,525 Speaker 1: once known as the Florida State Reform School, children were 434 00:31:52,565 --> 00:31:57,405 Speaker 1: abused for decades. In twenty twelve, a team of forensic 435 00:31:57,445 --> 00:32:02,005 Speaker 1: anthropologists did field work on the property and uncovered dozens 436 00:32:02,085 --> 00:32:05,885 Speaker 1: of unmarked graves. At least one hundred children were thought 437 00:32:05,925 --> 00:32:10,845 Speaker 1: to have died there. There's a major difference between what 438 00:32:10,885 --> 00:32:13,205 Speaker 1: the Doser School was like in the nineteen fifties and 439 00:32:13,285 --> 00:32:17,725 Speaker 1: sixties and Mount Megs. Both black and white students attended 440 00:32:17,765 --> 00:32:23,445 Speaker 1: the Doser School, which was internally segregated, but aside from that, 441 00:32:23,485 --> 00:32:26,725 Speaker 1: there are a lot of similarities between the two institutions, 442 00:32:27,245 --> 00:32:30,085 Speaker 1: and the stories told by the survivors of the Doser 443 00:32:30,205 --> 00:32:33,845 Speaker 1: School echo the stories of those who survived Mount Meg's 444 00:32:35,005 --> 00:32:39,165 Speaker 1: and in Canada, over a hundred and fifty thousand Indigenous 445 00:32:39,285 --> 00:32:43,325 Speaker 1: children were forcibly separated from their families and sent to 446 00:32:43,405 --> 00:32:46,845 Speaker 1: what were called residential schools, many of which were run 447 00:32:46,885 --> 00:32:51,045 Speaker 1: by the Catholic Church. Thousands of children at over a 448 00:32:51,165 --> 00:32:56,365 Speaker 1: hundred schools suffered physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. In two 449 00:32:56,805 --> 00:33:00,885 Speaker 1: twenty one, experts uncovered over six hundred bodies of children 450 00:33:01,205 --> 00:33:06,365 Speaker 1: who died at just one school. These aren't the only 451 00:33:06,405 --> 00:33:12,965 Speaker 1: other institutions where abusing children was systemic, normal, encouraged. But 452 00:33:13,005 --> 00:33:16,605 Speaker 1: I've thought a lot about these two, specifically not because 453 00:33:16,645 --> 00:33:19,365 Speaker 1: of what happened at the schools, but what happened after 454 00:33:20,685 --> 00:33:24,165 Speaker 1: For survivors of both of these institutions. There's been a 455 00:33:24,205 --> 00:33:28,765 Speaker 1: call for justice, a demand for accountability for the pain 456 00:33:29,005 --> 00:33:33,805 Speaker 1: those children endured, and in both Florida and Canada, that 457 00:33:33,925 --> 00:33:39,525 Speaker 1: call was at least sort of answered. In twenty seventeen, 458 00:33:39,965 --> 00:33:43,765 Speaker 1: the Florida legislature officially apologized to the survivors of the 459 00:33:43,805 --> 00:33:50,325 Speaker 1: Dojer School. Cannot say with enough heart felt remorse that 460 00:33:50,445 --> 00:33:52,845 Speaker 1: it's taken this long for a legislature, with all the 461 00:33:52,885 --> 00:33:56,245 Speaker 1: evidence that is before us, to come forth and apologize 462 00:33:56,285 --> 00:33:58,725 Speaker 1: for what has to be one of the blackest moments 463 00:33:58,725 --> 00:34:01,445 Speaker 1: on our state's history. And in the summer of twenty 464 00:34:01,685 --> 00:34:06,365 Speaker 1: twenty two, the Pope traveled to Canada to appologized publicly 465 00:34:06,725 --> 00:34:17,645 Speaker 1: for the abuse that Indigenous children suffered. Bailoue de Santacion 466 00:34:17,845 --> 00:34:22,725 Speaker 1: either very conciliation. So I wondered, did that feel like 467 00:34:22,845 --> 00:34:27,365 Speaker 1: justice for those survivors to hear the abuse acknowledge, to 468 00:34:27,525 --> 00:34:34,565 Speaker 1: hear some remorse for some. The answer is yes. Here's 469 00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:38,525 Speaker 1: Peter Ernick, a survivor of the Kamloops Indian Residential School, 470 00:34:38,965 --> 00:34:45,405 Speaker 1: speaking to CBC Television. The Pope's upology to me will 471 00:34:45,445 --> 00:34:50,445 Speaker 1: allow its survivors to begin a new chapter but for 472 00:34:50,485 --> 00:34:54,405 Speaker 1: others it's not enough, and for some it's not anything. 473 00:34:55,565 --> 00:34:58,125 Speaker 1: We talked to some other survivors of the Dojer school 474 00:34:58,605 --> 00:35:03,485 Speaker 1: about what the state's apology in twenty seventeen meant to them. 475 00:35:03,525 --> 00:35:09,165 Speaker 1: Here's Charlie Fudge, it's time that they make something more 476 00:35:09,365 --> 00:35:13,805 Speaker 1: right than just an apology. And Captain Bryant Middleton it 477 00:35:14,085 --> 00:35:19,285 Speaker 1: was an empty gesture without meeting, with no follow up. 478 00:35:19,965 --> 00:35:22,725 Speaker 1: And Richard Huntley, let me be honest with you, and 479 00:35:22,765 --> 00:35:24,765 Speaker 1: I think that's whole wash. I mean, I think that's 480 00:35:25,805 --> 00:35:29,285 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that's full of shit. After all, 481 00:35:29,485 --> 00:35:34,405 Speaker 1: these apologies don't come with anything. Apologies demand no sacrifice 482 00:35:34,445 --> 00:35:40,485 Speaker 1: from the state, no reparations, no settlements, no monetary damages 483 00:35:40,605 --> 00:35:45,885 Speaker 1: for the personal damage done to them. The governor basically 484 00:35:45,925 --> 00:35:50,285 Speaker 1: said they didn't have money to compensate us. Compensate us 485 00:35:50,325 --> 00:35:53,525 Speaker 1: in the sense of ensuring that those that had been 486 00:35:53,525 --> 00:35:57,885 Speaker 1: abused we were treated by doctors if need be. Most 487 00:35:57,885 --> 00:36:03,485 Speaker 1: of us old guys have a very low income, and 488 00:36:03,605 --> 00:36:06,845 Speaker 1: the majority of boys it was taken there and beaten 489 00:36:07,605 --> 00:36:12,005 Speaker 1: actually ended up in prison. There's been bills for reparations. 490 00:36:14,005 --> 00:36:18,245 Speaker 1: Money wouldn't fix what they went through. Nothing would, but 491 00:36:18,325 --> 00:36:22,885 Speaker 1: at least it would be something as boys. These men 492 00:36:22,925 --> 00:36:27,645 Speaker 1: were abused, tortured, their futures crippled by what they endured. 493 00:36:28,605 --> 00:36:34,325 Speaker 1: What good are words now? And yet words are more 494 00:36:34,365 --> 00:36:38,205 Speaker 1: than most have gotten. How many stories like this one 495 00:36:38,325 --> 00:36:42,245 Speaker 1: have gone uncovered? How many children have gone missing or 496 00:36:42,365 --> 00:36:45,885 Speaker 1: died without their families knowing what happened to them? How 497 00:36:45,965 --> 00:36:48,845 Speaker 1: much abuse has been unleashed on kids like the ones 498 00:36:48,885 --> 00:36:54,565 Speaker 1: at these schools without anyone saying anything. Here's one of 499 00:36:54,605 --> 00:36:59,245 Speaker 1: the Doger survivors, Captain Bryant Middleton. Again, I can't help 500 00:36:59,325 --> 00:37:04,445 Speaker 1: but wonder if any of this would surface anywhere else 501 00:37:04,765 --> 00:37:08,605 Speaker 1: had it not been so prominently covered by the media 502 00:37:08,845 --> 00:37:13,405 Speaker 1: here in Florida. How many other places are like dojer 503 00:37:13,605 --> 00:37:17,405 Speaker 1: the Florida School for Boys that have not been found 504 00:37:17,405 --> 00:37:23,165 Speaker 1: out or have not been reported. There's no telling. Alabama 505 00:37:23,205 --> 00:37:26,125 Speaker 1: has never expressed any regret for what the state did 506 00:37:26,165 --> 00:37:29,765 Speaker 1: to those children. In fact, the terror of Mount Meg's 507 00:37:29,805 --> 00:37:33,405 Speaker 1: has gotten little attention at all before now, except for 508 00:37:33,485 --> 00:37:37,045 Speaker 1: Denny's book and Jesse James Andrews appeal in California court. 509 00:37:38,725 --> 00:37:41,725 Speaker 1: I have some theories of why that might be. At 510 00:37:41,725 --> 00:37:45,285 Speaker 1: the Dojor school and the residential schools in Canada, survivors 511 00:37:45,285 --> 00:37:49,965 Speaker 1: connected and organized. We decided we would have some sort 512 00:37:50,005 --> 00:37:53,885 Speaker 1: of reunion. We were startled by the amount of turnout 513 00:37:53,925 --> 00:37:58,645 Speaker 1: that we had. Literally hundreds of men showed up. It 514 00:37:58,765 --> 00:38:02,525 Speaker 1: just was overwhelming. You can probably imagine how much the 515 00:38:02,565 --> 00:38:06,765 Speaker 1: connection matters. How the fight for acknowledgment is much easier 516 00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:11,845 Speaker 1: when hundreds of people speak out versus just one, regardless 517 00:38:11,845 --> 00:38:14,485 Speaker 1: of the outcome. Being part of a group is some 518 00:38:14,525 --> 00:38:20,205 Speaker 1: sort of relief catharsis, But survivors of Mount Megs haven't 519 00:38:20,245 --> 00:38:23,725 Speaker 1: been organized like that quite yet, and so many of 520 00:38:23,765 --> 00:38:28,245 Speaker 1: them suffer alone. They don't have anyone to validate their memories, 521 00:38:28,485 --> 00:38:33,805 Speaker 1: their trauma, what they went through as children. There are 522 00:38:33,805 --> 00:38:37,085 Speaker 1: other differences between Mount Meg's and some of these other facilities. 523 00:38:37,805 --> 00:38:41,325 Speaker 1: For example, at the Dojer School, many of the survivors 524 00:38:41,325 --> 00:38:46,965 Speaker 1: were white, which probably increased the likelihood of accountability. Plus, 525 00:38:47,045 --> 00:38:50,805 Speaker 1: the other institutions have been shut down. The Dojer School 526 00:38:50,805 --> 00:38:54,525 Speaker 1: shuttered in two eleven, and the Canadian residential schools have 527 00:38:54,605 --> 00:38:59,685 Speaker 1: been closed since the early nineteen nineties. At Mount Megs, 528 00:38:59,685 --> 00:39:05,445 Speaker 1: though the institution lives on, we don't know what became 529 00:39:05,485 --> 00:39:08,445 Speaker 1: aim of the makeshift graveyard that Johnny Bodley and Lonnie 530 00:39:08,525 --> 00:39:13,485 Speaker 1: Holly remember. But since this podcast began airing, we've gotten 531 00:39:13,525 --> 00:39:17,965 Speaker 1: emails from people formerly affiliated with Mount Meg's, including one 532 00:39:18,285 --> 00:39:21,005 Speaker 1: from someone who worked there within the last few years. 533 00:39:21,925 --> 00:39:25,565 Speaker 1: He says, Lonnie and Johnny's memories are correct, that the 534 00:39:25,605 --> 00:39:29,685 Speaker 1: small graveyard still existed when he worked there. Whoa with 535 00:39:30,325 --> 00:39:36,165 Speaker 1: me Law. Other places have brought in forensic anthropologists to 536 00:39:36,245 --> 00:39:40,045 Speaker 1: on earth these institutions secrets, But as long as Mount 537 00:39:40,125 --> 00:39:44,485 Speaker 1: Meg's is open, that level of reckoning is impossible. How 538 00:39:44,485 --> 00:39:47,925 Speaker 1: can Alabama fully apologize or account for the harm of 539 00:39:47,925 --> 00:39:53,285 Speaker 1: an institution that still exists. Eby Holloway died in nineteen 540 00:39:53,325 --> 00:39:58,365 Speaker 1: seventy six. Judge Thetford died in nineteen seventy seven. Most 541 00:39:58,365 --> 00:40:01,325 Speaker 1: of the adult perpetrators are dead now, and lots of 542 00:40:01,325 --> 00:40:03,965 Speaker 1: the children who were there in the nineteen sixties are 543 00:40:04,045 --> 00:40:11,285 Speaker 1: dead too, But some remain, like Lonnie, Mary, Jenny and Johnny. 544 00:40:11,765 --> 00:40:21,045 Speaker 1: Don't leave me alone, Lord, don't leave me alone? Why 545 00:40:21,685 --> 00:40:33,805 Speaker 1: I'm all miss Jesus, john Ah, won't Jesus do all 546 00:40:34,125 --> 00:40:41,845 Speaker 1: with me? So this is the end of our story, 547 00:40:43,325 --> 00:40:45,885 Speaker 1: But ours is only part of the story of mounta Megs. 548 00:40:47,045 --> 00:40:50,565 Speaker 1: The entire story of this place, now almost one hundred 549 00:40:50,605 --> 00:40:55,805 Speaker 1: and fifteen years old, is limitless. There's no way to 550 00:40:55,845 --> 00:40:58,765 Speaker 1: account for all the harm caused by Mountain Megs to survivors, 551 00:40:59,565 --> 00:41:04,765 Speaker 1: and all the harm caused by survivors because of that trauma. 552 00:41:05,045 --> 00:41:07,805 Speaker 1: I find myself wishing I had a clearer ending to 553 00:41:07,925 --> 00:41:11,565 Speaker 1: give you, that I could say the survivors are completely 554 00:41:11,565 --> 00:41:14,245 Speaker 1: at peace now that I could tell you there'd been 555 00:41:14,285 --> 00:41:19,205 Speaker 1: some sort of reckoning with those who perpetrated these injustices. Denny, 556 00:41:19,725 --> 00:41:22,605 Speaker 1: now in his eighties, is still trying to find a 557 00:41:22,605 --> 00:41:25,645 Speaker 1: way to get reparations for the survivors of Mount Meg's, 558 00:41:26,805 --> 00:41:29,485 Speaker 1: but that's not a promise that he or we can make. 559 00:41:31,565 --> 00:41:36,005 Speaker 1: The true story, as always, is a little more unsatisfying 560 00:41:36,245 --> 00:41:40,725 Speaker 1: than the stories we want to tell. Earlier, I asked 561 00:41:40,725 --> 00:41:44,925 Speaker 1: what justice for these survivors would look like. But maybe 562 00:41:44,965 --> 00:41:49,365 Speaker 1: the truth is that justice here is impossible. There's no 563 00:41:49,405 --> 00:41:52,005 Speaker 1: way of making whole what was broken on that stretch 564 00:41:52,005 --> 00:41:57,365 Speaker 1: of land outside of Montgomery. The harm cannot be undone. 565 00:41:59,765 --> 00:42:02,165 Speaker 1: We asked, if you could talk to the people who 566 00:42:02,165 --> 00:42:06,965 Speaker 1: abused you, what would you say? And Mary thought about 567 00:42:07,005 --> 00:42:11,925 Speaker 1: Fanny Matthews and all of these years later, she found 568 00:42:11,965 --> 00:42:15,965 Speaker 1: herself wondering what Fanny had gone through, what kind of 569 00:42:16,005 --> 00:42:19,405 Speaker 1: pain she might have experienced herself to do what she 570 00:42:19,565 --> 00:42:23,645 Speaker 1: did to Mary and so many others, What happened to 571 00:42:23,645 --> 00:42:31,605 Speaker 1: her to make her so treacherous. You know, I'm softy too, 572 00:42:32,125 --> 00:42:37,325 Speaker 1: as bad as it was, and I haven't so I'm 573 00:42:37,365 --> 00:42:41,405 Speaker 1: not gonna lie to usday. I've forgiven her, Okay, if 574 00:42:41,485 --> 00:42:46,325 Speaker 1: she told me what happened to her, I probably have 575 00:42:46,405 --> 00:42:50,285 Speaker 1: a soft spot for her too. If I knew something 576 00:42:50,325 --> 00:42:57,365 Speaker 1: that happened, listen, I don't know, I don't know, I'd 577 00:42:57,365 --> 00:43:09,005 Speaker 1: probably end up loving her too. So maybe there's something else, 578 00:43:10,205 --> 00:43:14,365 Speaker 1: a bit of comfort maybe, or even hope. And the 579 00:43:14,405 --> 00:43:18,365 Speaker 1: fact that despite it all, many survivors still have the 580 00:43:18,445 --> 00:43:23,165 Speaker 1: capacity for forgiveness. Despite it all, so many of them 581 00:43:23,205 --> 00:43:25,925 Speaker 1: are still trying to make the world a little better, 582 00:43:27,245 --> 00:43:33,885 Speaker 1: And fifty years later, they're still here, still suffering, still remembering, 583 00:43:34,885 --> 00:43:44,605 Speaker 1: but still surviving all the same. Unreformed. The Story of 584 00:43:44,645 --> 00:43:47,845 Speaker 1: the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children is a production 585 00:43:47,845 --> 00:43:50,965 Speaker 1: of School of Humans and iHeartMedia. This episode was written 586 00:43:50,965 --> 00:43:53,925 Speaker 1: by me Josie Deffie, Rice and Taylor von Laslie. Our 587 00:43:53,965 --> 00:43:57,245 Speaker 1: script supervisors Florence Burrow Adams and our producer is Gabby Watts, 588 00:43:57,525 --> 00:44:00,245 Speaker 1: who had additional writing and production support from Sherry Scott. 589 00:44:00,685 --> 00:44:04,005 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie Crowley, Brandon Barr, Matt 590 00:44:04,085 --> 00:44:07,445 Speaker 1: Arnette and Me. Sound design and mixes by Jesse Niswanger. 591 00:44:07,845 --> 00:44:10,845 Speaker 1: Music is by Ben Soli. Additional recordings are courtesy of 592 00:44:10,885 --> 00:44:13,805 Speaker 1: the Alabama Center for Traditional Culture. The songs featured in 593 00:44:13,805 --> 00:44:17,165 Speaker 1: this episode are Scalaway by Spiritual Voices of Whitehall, Alabama, 594 00:44:17,485 --> 00:44:20,085 Speaker 1: Walk with Me by Helen McLoud, and I'm a Suspect 595 00:44:20,085 --> 00:44:23,365 Speaker 1: by Lonnie Holly courtesy of Jack Jaguar. Special thanks to 596 00:44:23,405 --> 00:44:26,525 Speaker 1: the Alabama Department of Archives and History, Michael Harriet, Floyd Hall, 597 00:44:26,645 --> 00:44:29,085 Speaker 1: Kevin Nutt, Van Newkirk, and all of the survivors of 598 00:44:29,165 --> 00:44:32,325 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's willing to share their stories. If you enjoyed 599 00:44:32,325 --> 00:44:35,085 Speaker 1: this episode, please leave us a rating and review wherever 600 00:44:35,125 --> 00:44:37,645 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. If you are someone you know 601 00:44:37,685 --> 00:44:39,685 Speaker 1: attended Mount Megs and would like to be in contact, 602 00:44:39,725 --> 00:44:43,565 Speaker 1: please email Mountmegs Podcast at gmail dot com. That's Mt 603 00:44:44,045 --> 00:44:57,005 Speaker 1: m e Igs Podcast at gmail dot com. School of 604 00:44:57,085 --> 00:44:57,485 Speaker 1: Humans